Swedish gays made to wait for church wedding

Good, as civil mariage at least the goverment will know who is gay and they conduct blood test if they have any diseases, plus i feel adoption should not be allowed because straight children they will become gays forcefully.

Really? Soo that's how you become gay, I always wondered about that... Grow up mate!

wonders shall never end!!! The church is now being forced or compelled to redefine her role of maintaining Godly and Moral uprightness to fit what was clearly condemned by God. as for adoption, I think it is too far. naturally same sex dont produce children, so why should they expect one or even more. if they are interested in children then i think cloning should be considered.

Thanks, Brtahan, your comment is one of the funniest joke I have heard recently... forced blood tests, straight children becoming gays forcefully,,, funny, really funny!

I think that same-sex couples SHOULD be able to adopt children (think about how many children are in a bad home, or have no home- this would eliminate that!) and they SHOULD be able to be recognized by government that their partnership is LEGAL. I for one am not a homosexual, but why do people keep hating on them because they are different and like different things?!

So according to you people get married solely to procreate?

Oh, you sterile condemnable chaps should not be allowed to ever evah be tying the knots!

Yeah baba!! sooo seeings that the general population of "gay" folks know that the gene make up is what makes one gay..this means that there is a greater chance of making more gays...to bother homophobics like youself!! Great idea!! Shall give my friends the good news, so much for your moral uprightness... I will be a faghag till the day I die and come back again to support the gay rights!! See you in the funnies

Inletwatcher

Hmmm... I'm not familiar with Sweden's Laws regarding freedom of religion, yet I would think it best to "not" force a religious organization to hold weddings for people that would be a contradiction to it's values or morals. By saying this "I do not" say that gays can't be married. If the Law of the land permits gay marriage a justice of the peace or simular wedding should suffice. Forcing a religious institution to do so would violate it's freedom.

I'm hetrosexual and while I disagree with the gay lifestyle as is my right; I also support the rights of homosexuals because gays are "not" responcible to my beliefs, yet by fighting for their rights as freewilled people I fight for, and defend my own.

I needed a 2nd post to complete my thoughts.

It seems to me a great many individuals get angry about gays and their sexual orientation. People also get angry

about other things people do, and they'll froth at the mouth, stamp their feet, and yell...you don't believe in my God, your ways are too strange, or I don't like the color of your skin. Then they'll have the audacity to say that they're persecuting whomever for God....lol Now that's insane! Yes, you heard me...insane...as if God needs us mere humans to do his work for him... anyone ever hear of the Flood. Well that proves the Almighty can do things all on his own. That should indicate that if people living a lifestyle we don't agree haven't been struck by lightning or something, well then , God probably is letting them use their right to choose how they want to live. In the end we'll all have to answer for our lives, but for now it's our job to choose our path.

Do you believe in Hell, and that gay folk go there after death?

Oh my that's a loaded question in a way. My answer will be from the point of view of being a Christian. Other faiths will differ in view. I just wanted you to know the context of my thoughts. I may need more than one post to fully express myself.

Yes I believe in hell. Yet we do not go there at death.

I don't know how much you want me to express, so I'll be as brief as possible. Please understand that there are many events that must unfold leading up to the point we end up in hell or not, yet I'll concentrate on what I think you want to know. That'll be the time when we are all judged according to what we've done. At this point a choice we made or failed to make will have it's consequence. If we accepeted Christ then we make it and get everlasting life, and if we did not...we'll be thrown into hell to burn.

Another post follows to continue.

People make the mistake of concentrating on particular types of people or lifestyles, if you will, yet that's a mistake I think. God is rather adament about certain things. He hates liars, theives, adulterers, fornicators, and yes homosexuals, amoung others. People often tend to concentrate on homosexuals. Perhaps this is because they are often seen as easy to single out or pick on. A sin is that which is contrary to the will of God, so all humans without intervention on our behalf fall under a death sentence to be carried out at judgement. Thats where Christ comes in. This is why he came here to live as a human and to give up his life before returning to God The Father.

Another post follows. Please understand that I'm not trying to preach to you. You asked a question and I'm attempting to answer it. I'm trying to be brief, and if clarification is wanted please let me know.

Freethinker. Noun. A person who has formed their opinions using reason and rational enquiry; somebody who has rejected dogma, especially with regard to religion.

Think it's about time you changed your name?

plus i feel adoption should not be allowed because straight children they will become gays forcefully.

Does he mean, become gays forcefully, or become forceful gays? I truly prefer my gays meek and mild mannered. It makes it so much easier to round em all up and march em down for blood tests.

Tcha. This is the sound Didi E makes when she is yet again confronted with knowledge that people can be so f'ing stupid. It appears we are now targeted by the loony Christian segment, as well as the loony Moslem segment. How do you people find this place?

I have a modest proposal. Let's say that, oh, the fifteenth of every month, we try a communal experiment. On that day, try posting on an inflammatory topic- gay marriage, child abuse, Eurovision- but follow the special rules. A, write in coherent English. B, consider both sides of an argument, and C (THIS IS THE BIG RULE) defend your stance without referring to, or quoting from, God. (Only Didi E has a direct line, anyway, so the rest of you who insist on repeating what God wants are just fakers, anyhow.) Yep, even on a topic like church weddings for gay couples, it theoretically should be possible to have cogent, and comprehensibly written English-language discussions without needing to resort to the God is My Homeboy tactics so often seen here.

Thrown in hell to burn? Look out your window... where babies are abused, human rights being so violated that many people cannot bear to look at the pictures, let alone raise a hand, go next door, love your neighbor. To break ones-self out of their protective shells to REALLY help others. The God you speak of is so cruel, mean, heartless but for his own greed to be worshipped. Protector of innocent he is not. Yes, I am aware of free will.

Just sit back, and think about how many people he alone by his hand..not to mention the countless sheep he lead to kill in his namesake, for what...not worshipping HIM. How he infected with evil spirits all the pigs and drove them off a cliff.. WTF is that. All for the name of love, thats right, or is it a horror story to scare peoples into submission?

The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19) Just to name one reference.

Please allow this to float in your thoughts today as you do your daily stuff.. chew on it if you can handle the taste, that quite possibly it is a book rewritten many many times, by mans hand's' to keep order of his household and countryside by fear and threat of horrible punishments.

For most with a christian thinking/following, knows that there are perhaps rules that they forget to follow, that is to Judge not lest ye be judged themselves. Love your neighbor as you love yourselves... blah blah I will spare, sure you have read it yourself at some point in your life.

I am very interested in learning more, and will look forward to any feedback, however served.

Inlet

Omg Please do your homework. If you have children now or in the future, please allow them to have their free choice to be true to themselves, and whole inside.

I still like the cloning idea another poster had earlier... yes...yes I can see it now.

The ants go marching two by two horrah horrah

Inlet

ps. I do agree with you on the disease part, but I do think that 'gays' are tested for such things just like straight people are, perhaps even more often than you.

Ha. Nice try DidiE and I for one would welcome a debate on such issues without having my opponent retreat to the safety of 'Because it is God's will'. However, these simpletons derive all their reason from religious dogma and are incapable of making a rational, non-deity based counter argument to anything. So tragically I fear you are wasting your time.

Hope springs eternal though...

From a human point of view it is better to lie than to steal, and better steal than to murder- human laws often reflect this -the meaning of thou shalt not kill would be premeditated murder. People often misunderstand that one, yet I digress. From God's a sin is a sin, and regardless of which sin they all carry one penalty...death. We humans are always doing something wrong. One does not have to be a Christian to be a decent, and generally a good person from a human point anyway. being a Christian simply means that I chose to accept a gift of salvation that's offered to all of us. it's a gift we can't earn, yet is freely given if asked for, yet by accepting it we are to honestly strive to live as God would want. Christ's final law to us might help...love thy neighbor as you would thyself.

hey I was simply answering a question someone put to me.

Inletwatcher, well like it or not we live in a world where we have the right to choose. For better or worst people will at times abuse the right to choose. Case in point Adulf Hitler and his Nazi's deffinately abused theirs. Freedom of will, freedom of choice has it's consequences. Yes many evils do occur, and thats the result of those people who try to force their views on others, or to take what is not theirs. Often its also about controling others. What others beleive or do not beleive does not concern me. again I was simply answering a question.

Also if I do have childeren they will be taught to think for themselves, as I was. I was raised Christain, yet also was encouraged to study other religions and philosophies. Buhdism, Dhaoism, I even studied the Noble Khoran ( as the Muslims call it ). I even understand the theory of evolution..lol I did so becuase I wanted to understand other cultures and people. I could've converted to another belief at any time, yet they did not add up to me, however I did make informed and rational choices. If I have kids I'll encourage them to learn as much as possible about other cultures and beleifs so they may make their own minds up about what they think is true or not, and if nothing else they'll at least have a better understanding of this carazy world.

Thank you Freethinker, as I do also see where you are coming from. I am a backsliddddd. I have studied, felt the awe on the alter as I cried to the Lord for my sins, and the sins of my parents and peoples. I felt the ultra unexplained floating high for a few years of my life.

Extreme sport of the mind, and yes Soul. Thank you for listening to me, and others.

I will go walk the pups in the woods and chew and ponder, without smokes.

If there is a Hell, I will probably be going. We will find out, or will we?

Inlet

Opps I mispelled Daoism. Oh. I'm quite open to debate without falling to a faith defense....lol if you scroll up you'll find I was asked a question, and I attempted to answer it within the context of that question. Also if anyone has bother to read my other posts you'll find that I'm a big beleiver in the right of the individual, in freedom of will. The right of the individual is the center piece of Western thought. It is what allowed our civilization to rise as far as it has. We've made wondrous strides in not only technology, and scient, yet most importantly in social forms as well.

Inletwatcher I hope we can talk again. Enjoy your walk with your pups. It's a pleasure speaking with you.

Muttlestar I hope I answered your question. Loved our discusion on the other forem, was pleasantly surprised to see you here.

Everyone else pleasure meeting you all.

Thanks Maria, that was lovely. I was very moved by your stiring rhetoric. Now perhaps you could try that again without referring to your God. You know, perhaps try thinking for yourself just for once, eh? See how it feels? You never know, you might like it.

maria1244 I almost pity you. I will atempt to appeal to your Islamic Thought. "Esalam Ahlaicum wa Ensha alah" you will learn tolerance. Unfortunately you probably won't. There is nothing wrong with questioning. To question is the begining of reason. Thank God for the Ancient Greeks who asked this most important question...."why?" that question gave birth to Western Philosopy and Thought. To question is to learn. Maria the Noble Koran instructs that people educate themselves. If nothing else please try to learn from others. Even if we disagree we can gain from understanding others, or at least gain an understanding to inrich ourselves.

Is Sweden accepting asylum requests from children?

Oh, dear poster of the orthodox, and yet amusing, thought processes, she whose name begins with a consonant somewhere between J and Z. Just as you extend your deepest sympathies to the genetic pool from whence a previous poster spawned, I must also extend the same rich feeling to your forebears. Your progenitors, at least those capable of rational thought, must also be in the throes of multiple time traveling conniption fits.

I hasten to enlighten those of you whose sensibilities are shocked by the idea of homosexuals in the Middle East, that such behaviour appears in every human society known. Thus, it is as normal as anything else that shows up with 10-20% frequency, including lefthandedness. Shall we call for a ban on those who are sinisterally oriented, and institute the death penalty for people who need special scissors?

Squiddy how goes it? I think your thoughs to Maria will be lost as if a ship at sea floundering in a howling gale bereft of rudder and sail.

I'm not attacking you Maria. Not precisely anyway. From your other posts on other forems here I've found that you only seem to accept views that are in line with yours. Please remember that you are in Western lands now, and that our traditions of freedom are lacking in Islamic Lands. You have a unique opportunity to learn about us Westeners. Please don't get beligerent with others, even if they disagree with you. You'll get more from these forems if you engage in intelligent dialog well thought out ideas.

The gheys got what they wanted, now they can kindly shut up and get on with thier lives, perhaps the rest of us can get some peace and quiet. Same goes for you weak minded fools stuck on ficticious dogmas.

It's quite amusing to see someone who preaches the tolerance of Islam in one thread showing a complete lack of tolerance and understanding in another.

Dearest Maria, I have SO many thoughts on your post, I am flabbergasted oh wait thats a big word.. Umm I am exausted.. no umm sick of, there it is... I am sick of how you speak and you just are I dunno I am shaking my head.

I will now try out the fantastic feature from "ours truly" Bob the wizard and try to poof you out of my living room. Ignore..ahh the lovelyness of this feature. **hope it works

In simpler words for you, See you in hell you gay bashing hating poor excuse for taking up precious Swedish air..good thing I am not on the board for you to stay in this loving beautiful free country. Happy you are not my neighbor, and I feel for yours. Have in your life what you justly deserve. See you in hell beotch. I be the one holding the door for you.

Inlet

Oh ps.. I am not really gay for your information, I just am the momma of a very beautiful, sweet, kind, giving gay man .. oh yeah he is sexy too. Ask his BOYFRIEND/WIFE.

See you in the funnies. No wait, I won't see you ever mehopes, as should you

Paulo+fab how are you? delighted to see you on this thread.

Didi E lol I think the problem people have with homosexuals is probly a control issue. Some people just can't stand that others are different and will use nearly any excuse to change others, and try to force them to conform. It also could be that by being exposed to something different people feel threatened because they might get tempted. hard to say really.

Oh Maria, I read your post abit more carefully. I'm not a homosexual. I'm hetrosexual, so please read posts more carefully. I stated before that while I disagree with homosexuality that I support their rights and will fight for them, because by fighting for the rights of others I also fight for my own. If soneone is doing something I may not like , yet does not harm anyone one else..well then I don't have to look...lol

Inletwatcher if it works let me know please. welcome back and how was the walk with your pups?

Yeah! Even her old spits are gone! The magic of Bob. I wonder..I love stats, if there is like a record for how many ignores in the shortest time is.

Enough of being childish, I will attempt to let go.

Walk was lovely! Spring has definatly sprung and the blueberries are beginning to show their leaves finally. The woodpecker has eggs I think, but the hole in the old tree has so much sap streaming from it, not to mention my shorter height I have no hope to look into its highrise flat. Lots of thoughts with in the background some of Queen's Innuendo.

One thing I would like to thank her for though.. Ms M..that is the fact that this board has been very enlightning and brought me closer in mindset with some of the posters who participated, and myself. I do believe that when my kid's kids have kids..yes some of my kids are not GAY... yeah I said it again. Ummmm when their kids are here this fight for the rights of humans will be still here.

As will hopefully "my" woodpeckers kids.

I feel a little taller today for some reason.

Inlet

oh oh I am in trouble now.. my little eye spy "the local" reading this thread.

I know that you believe that you understand what you think I said,

BUT I am not so sure you realize what you heard what not what I ment.

Inlet **grins

I've also just updated my "Ignore" list.

I now have five posters that "Ignore", and it's great.

Not surprisingly, they're all ones who have nothing better to do than spread messages of hatred though the guise of religion.

By the way Inlet, it appears that her posts have actually been removed. It wasn't the "Ignore" function in this case, but The Local reacting to a report of abuse because of "hate speech".

Perhaps I beat them to it.. for when I refreshed the page after ignoring Ms M it said something along the lines of "you can no longer read this persons posts, you must go and remove them from your ignore list". Please don't quote me.. this is day 3 of no cigs. ;D

Will be happy to move on and keep learning, Think its time for side two.

All the best, Inlet

Yep. I confess, I do have a weakness when in the US for watching wrestling entertainment shows. My fav episode ever was a 'very special episode' when the Vince McMahon Foundation announced its choice for the Vince McMahon Humanitarian of the Year Award to...Vince McMahon.

Editor Bob, I believe you should receive this award for your actions this week.

Well time for me to away to the Realm of Dreams. The hour is late and I must away to bed. night everyone.

I still think the Ignor bit sounds better, so I'll attribute Maria's disappearance to the power of the ignor..lol I think seeing things with a sense of humor is much more fun.

thanks everyone for the wonderful discussion. I hope I see you all again sometime. Peace.

Oh Muttlestar do you like the Sci- Fi Series Battle Star Galactica? I think it's awesome. It gives me a great deal to think about. Particularly about technology and how far we should go especially regarding any artificial life forms we may create. What rights would we have to give them? what responcibilities would we have to them? Personally as a species I don't think we are anywhere close to being ready for that. Though if we ever do create a sentient ( as in able to understand the " I think and therefore I am, and to be self aware )race of beings that's either biological or robotic in nature I think I would end up fighting for their rights. It's wrong I think to have slaves.

Good dreams for you Freethinker... today has been a good day.

I want a robot to do my houswork. I promise to be fair and give him private toaster time when he needed it.

Grins, Inlet

thank you Brtahan for making one of the stupidest comments i have ever seen.

always good to know that morons like you exist on earth. keeps life entertaining.

I still have mixed feelings towards gay marriage. I'm not against it between consenting adults as Canada made it legal a few years before Sweden did, so it's now law over here, but I do have a problem with gays adopting children. I also feel that clergy shouldn't be forced to perform gay ceremonies if they are personally against it.

I honestly don't know why gays wanted legal marriage in the first place. It now means legal hassles with divorce. That's why I'm common law in my heterosexual relationship. We've both been married/divorced before. Never again. The lawyers should be happy about this as they'll be getting more work.

Bottom line is this:

You can't catch 'gay'.

Gay folk do not seek to recruit.

Gay folk, though lacking in interest in the opposite sex, do feel that special need to protect the young.

Millions of children need suffrage from lives of abject loneliness and being institutionalised.

Gay folk as adoptee parents are a damn site better option for dispossessed orphans than any a life of homes and uncertainty.

As for marriage: meh. Sod church, so long as parity is achieved.

gays adopting children...hmmm...children learn how to live in their respective society from their family. In fact the family unit is the corner stone of any culture. If a country has heathy families then the society as a whole is better off. Now the question becomes will children adopted by homosexual parents become gay from observing that lifestyle? Hey, hear me out please. I'm not gay bashing, and these are questions which any reasonable person would ask. Questions lead to answers...the act of inquiry leads to knowledge, so please lets senibly discuss this line of thought.

Another question is can a gay couple be loving nurturing parents to kids? Personaly I can't see why not. Would kids be better of with gay parents than having either no home at all or being stuck with abusive parents? I would imagine yes. Would children in such households come to accept gay lifestyle as ok...more than likely. Would kids learn to become gay? ...possibly... Kids as they grow up would learn about homosexuality one way or another. Simply by living in this world we encounter different views, ideas or whatnot one way or another.

I personaly am unsure of gays adopting kids. Though I don't agree with the gay orientation, I ask myself, if a gay couple can be wonderful parents should they be kept from that role?

Okay here I go.. out for all to see and bash and hate me for.

When I was five, my dad was killed. When I was five my Mom did a few years for murder. I will leave out details as its not important to this here post.

I was bounced around from group home to orphanage where when it was "pick a kid day" I would hide under the sink so they would not pick me. No stability what so ever, no help from anyone to talk to me, help me cope with what I had seen.

Never having love from an adult, I grew up meek, quiet and hurting inside hourly. I did not know this of course..the hurt part for me it was normal. I often wished for a family like when the kids from "town" would come out to visit us at our cabin in boon F*** Alaska they would talk of family and tv and stores and things I had forgotten about.

Okay, reason for post is this, I believe in my heart of hearts that if I had been given up and been allowed to find a family to live with maybe I would have had a better childhood, thus having a better Motherhood. I wished for the love, acceptance and support I seen my visitors had. I think a loving home is SOO more important than what is in who's pants/gene makeup. To have a family with supportive adults who would love me for me, and not abuse me in my private areas. Hardly a group home did I pass through, without someone..adult or kid try to touch my flower. Not saying that all of them are currupt, just the ones I was sent to..for the most part.

Its horrible when people accuse Gay folks of implanting gay into others. That is totally stupid and ignorant. Like trying to make a car into a moterbike. Can't be done. The chassy is so different. Just like the genetic make up of you and me 'I yam what I yam'

I think every human who is stable in his/her homelife, and WANTS a child, should be given the love of parenthood. Every child has the right to have a home and not be brought up in the system where we/they are just a number in a folder somewhere in an office where the files are overflowing. Wish like hell they would have let me go, and find a home, gay or not! Looking back now, I would choose a gay home..if given the choice. I was never molested by anyone who was gay. Only straights.

Think I said too much, but I don't care..for I have the protection of my internet screen and can hide behind that. I just wish for all the kids like me to have a family who loves them.

Think I will be bad today and go have 1/2 a smoke. shhh don't tell on me.

Inletwatcher

Don't do it, you'll regret it as soon as you take the first puff.

I think the issue here is the same as on the thread about domestic violence. Some people are passing judgement on other people without ever having taken a step in their shoes.

Inletwatcher, hey there : ) good to see you again. I think alot of your post did'nt come through. It says under your post 2148 characters snipped. Could you please continue your thoughts. I would love to read what you wanted to express.

Muttlestar how goes it?

The full post can be seen in the discuss forum.

I can't say it again, I said too much already.

Thank you though for warm thoughts

inlet

The immediate issue here is: Put that fag down, IW. Immediately.

Having performed my act of civilkurage for today, I want to ask you, FT. If you had grown up under as horrific a childhood as IW, ONLY every so called foster home you were in, there was someone who tried to molest YOU (and the important assumption I'm making is that you are a male, otherwise this whole question implodes) would that have 'made' you gay? Search your heart while we search IW's pockets for butts.

Naw. I didn't think so. Sexuality is hard-wired for the most part. Granted, sexual preferences for partners of both flavours are arrayed on a spectrum, with Johnny Straightb*lls on one side ready to slice you if you even look at him queer, and, um, like, say, Ola Salo on the other side, ready to party at anytime. (The last reference is my way of bringing up Eurovision in this discussion, as all discussion benefit from this last topic, in my opinion.) While it may be possible that some people choose to have partners of the same sex for a while, our innate preferences appear to be very firmly established by adulthood. And don't bring up that sorry old side topic about prisons and homosexuality, as in THAT case, we're talking about rape, which has nothing to do with sex. Stating that people choose to be gay is simply ignoring not only overwhelming research, but also your own biology. Could YOU choose to be gay, permanently? Okay, now, given all the hatred, murders, and ongoing systematic oppression of a large group of people simply because they fall on one end of the spectrum, and not the other because of BIOLOGICAL reasons, would you say that maybe, just maybe, this is not fair? That maybe we can move forward, especially those of us who live in Western Europe, to address some of these wrongs? That maybe all people should have the right to marry and establish families ...Although, come to think of it, a parenting license for some nimrods would NOT be a bad idea, but that's a topic for another day.

I'lll answer your question DiDI E. This may require mulitple posts.

I was a victem of Child Neglect which in the US is considered a form of abuse. When I was 14 my family fell aprat. My father was an alchoholic. Since I can remeber he was always drinking and abusive to my mother. She left when I was 14 and left me with him. I do not blame her for leaving, yet I do blame her for not seeing to my needs before disappearing. I've never seen nor heard from her since. I was with my father for roughly 2 years. He did not like to buy groceries and often I would go without food for about 2 weeks at a time. He often yelled and cursed at me, but never hit me, or inappropriately touched me. In winter we did not have heat becuase he did not pay bills. He prefered to spend his money on booze and prostitutes.

futher...durring that time my school work suffered dramatically, and I stopped going to school. I tended to faint alot and was often sick and I really did not have much energy. I was 16 when I finally did talk with my neighbors, and explained my situation. Oh and yes I am male. They helped me. I was then in a selter home for about 2 weeks while an aunt and uncle I had lost track of were found. I was with them for afew months, and when they broke up I went to greece with my aunt , so I could live with my Greek grandparents. My Mom was from Greece, and my father American.

I remember why I did not deal with my situation for so long. I was ashamed, and I had a perverse loyalty to my father, yet I reached a point to where enough was enough. I remember I was rather skinny ( an understatement ) and very malnurished. I remember the few times I was at school when asked what was wrong I would lie. I just did not want people to know my shame. That's how I felt durring that time. Oh one last thing the night I went to the neighbors my father came home drunk, and was singing well colorful songs. he yelled a question from his room, if I would like to see a cock. I did not quite understand, yet did not like the sound of that, so I ran out the house and to our neighbors. That was the only time he acted inappropriately, and I was out the door faster than a new York second..lol Does this answer your question DiDi E?

There are inumerous scientific studies published in many countries that support gay adoption/parenting and concluded that children raised by gay parents have basically exactly the same chances of doing well as in any other type of family. Several findings by nonpartisan adoption group were released conclude that gays and lesbians are an important resource for children awaiting adoption. There is near "universal professional consensus" that these applicants should be judged on their qualifications, not sexual orientation. Thus, what religious people think or anyone who opposes gay parenting should be irrelevant to lawmakers, since they don't base their knowledges and opinions on logic and/or any scientific evidences either.

Just to cite a few findings:

- Beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation (Anderssen, Amlie, & Ytteroy, 2002; Brewaeys & van Hall, 1997; Parks, 1998; Patterson, 2000; Patterson & Chan, 1996; Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999; Victor & Fish, 1995).

- Lesbian and heterosexual women have not been found to differ markedly either in their overall mental health or in their approaches to child rearing (Bos et al., 2004; Kweskin & Cook, 1982; Lyons, 1983; Miller, Jacobsen, & Bigner, 1981; Mucklow & Phelan, 1979; Pagelow, 1980; Parks, 1998; Patterson, 2001; Rand, Graham, & Rawlings, 1982; Siegenthaler & Bigner, 2000; Thompson, McCandless, & Strickland, 1971).

- Similarly, lesbians' romantic and sexual relationships with other women have not been found to detract from their ability to care for their children (Bos et al., 2004; Chan et al., 1998b; Pagelow, 1980).

- Lesbian couples who are parenting together have most often been found to divide household and family labor relatively evenly and to report satisfaction with their couple relationships (Bos et al., 2004; Brewaeys et al., 1997; Chan, et al., 1998a; Ciano-Boyce & Shelley-Sireci, 2002; Hand, 1991; Johnson & O'Connor, 2002; Koepke, Hare, & Moran, 1992; Osterweil, 1991; Patterson, 1995a; Sullivan, 1996; Tasker & Golombok, 1998; Vanfraussen, Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, & Brewaeys, 2003).

- Research on gay fathers likewise suggests that they are likely to divide the work involved in child care relatively evenly and that they are happy with their couple relationships (Johnson & O'Connor, 2002; McPherson, 1993).

An interesting summary about gay parenting from APA - The American Psychological Association website:

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/lgplgparents.html

click on the link. welcome to the forum

as for your next question. if I had been molested that night would that have made me gay? I honestly do not know, and no offense, but I would rather not have that experience to find out for sure. I once did consider the question of being gay or not when in my 20's a friend was having crisis of sorts. He was wrestling with gay thoughts, and asked me and other friends present what made us hetrosexual, and not gay. I took alot of time on that one, and I did consider it. It's just not me. I already have a stick shift and have no need for another. Also I adore women. They are the most beautiful beings, and fill me with peace, and joyous contentment just being near them. Male nature does not appeal to me. Women's nature complements mine quite nicely. I see a woman as being a half that makes me whole.

Thanks 007 I'll check out the link.

But the point I am trying to make is that external circumstances don't MAKE one gay. You are born with an innate preference that makes you adore women (although that argues the point that homosexual men don't adore women, and that doesn't seem to be true, either, but we are talking about preferences for sexual partners, right?) If, God forbid, a male raped you, would that make you gay? Of course not. If you were experimenting, had homosexual sex, said, meh, that was okay but I like women, does that one or two or three experiments make you gay? Naw. Human sexuality is expressed along a spectrum of behaviours. Some find that any sexual behaviour with same sex partners is repugnant, but research shows that those people who absolutely cannot tolerate same-sex sex are really in the minority. Same at the other end- those homosexuals who would absolutely rather be dead than touch an opposite-sex partner are equally small in numbers. Most of us are found all along the spectrum.

If sexual partners could determine our sexuality, then it is quite likely that someone could MAKE you gay. In that case, we'd be all for rapists attacking people of the opposite sex, or same sex, depending on our own sexual orientation, to make em straight or gay while they were young, if you follow me. But sexual orientation just doesn't happen that way. You yourself have just pointed that out.

The problem about sharing basic facts about human sexuality, and trying to discuss how we all fall along a spectrum, or, okay, a bell shaped curve if you are a math person, is that this simple fact goes against every thing you learned about sex in the schoolyard and via mass media. It is really too bad that we can't just talk about sex, and then talk about human rights, and come up with the very reasonable conclusion that people just need to be able to do what their wiring tells them to do.

Thank you for sharing FT, I feel humbled.

Wowzers. **hugs

<<<<I think we need a "club lounge" place thread thingy so we can speak of things...other things that are important too. Stupid things, like how I have no hair in a place for I used ducktape to put my patch back on yesterday.>>>>

I think most of us are in agreement that this life sucks at times but by the power of .. I dunno we are brought together to learn grow and have our cheerios pee'd in.

Back to topic on the Pastor being forced to wed a Gay couple..well for one. A marriage is of love. Love that the couple wants to express in a loving free manner. By gosh if the Pastor is not up on it, why would the couple want a reversed shotgun wedding?

**I sees this in my minds eye

There will be advertisments if not in the open but between the community of who is okay to have perform the ceremony and who is not. Easypeasy, everyone please be happy

Inlet

DiDi E actually it's possible or may be. I knew a kid a Greece who was gang banged by several men. He was messed up after, and he did become gay. I don't know what must've gone through his mind. He was not really into talking about it. I do remember being somewhat frightened becuase I thought about that last night with my father, and thought that could've been me...* shudders* whew I got off easy. I'll take starvation over that anytime and be grateful! Now I don't know if he made a choice or was so traumatized that something in his mind broke. maybe it was alittle of both.

Inletwatcher I think a club lounge would be cool. is that possible?

Nice post Didie I really enjoy the way you write, very much.

My boy told me that he knew he was gay when he was like 7.

I had a gay friend tell me when my litte guy was just 4 years old that he would be gay. I was so agast! I was so stupid I did not let my friend come over when my boy was awake, thinking he would influence. LOL how stupid I was. No way I thought.

Guess there is a thing as "Gaydar" My son claims he has it.. kinda funny like the potleaf on the forehead that other smokers can see.

Being gay/bi has come a long way. In all due time.

Inletwatcher

I think if the church is inclusive which seems to be the case of some of them that's absolutely ok to celebrate gay marriage ceremonies, however if they do not accept homosexuals I can't see the point in the first place for a gay couple at wanting to be blessed by an organization who ostracize them.

My life partner is Jew and member of a progressive congregation - I am not a religious person, actually, I'm a happy convinced atheist - however, we have attended together some of his Jewish services and there was this rabi who offered to marry us one day if we wanted. I don't oppose it if it's important to him. On the other hand, it's clear to both of us that there is total inclusiveness in this congregation which is absolutely different.

I am going to hop off the subject of same-sex rape for a while. I did bring it up, thinking I was providing a salient argument, but apparently it's not working.

Two points before I get off my bottom and go do something. The Swedish Church still enjoys a semi-official status as a quasi-State Church. Granted not like before, but FT, did you know we can still vote in elections as to who should sit on Church councils? Given its still-important status in Sweden, making sure that Church rites are in conformance with state policies is not just a religious issue, but a political one.

In a related issue, why would any couple, gay or straight, want to be married in a church that didn't approve of their relationship? It would be akin to me marching down to the local snake handlers congregation and demanding to be made High Poobah or whatever. Neither I nor the snake handlers would be happy. For an occasion in which a couple's happiness is the main celebration, and because marriage is indeed an optional rite, it seems rather doubtful that anyone would be 'forced' to choose a church rite that does not reflect their own values.

DiDi E that's very interesting. I did not know that in Sweden people could vote in elections for Church Councils. Does that mean anyone can vote, and would that include non church members? I can see the benefits, also the possible harm. I prefer that State and religion remain separate, though the system you describe seems to work for Sweden. If in Sweden the political system is involved in Church affairs does the Church also have an involvement in political affairs? I tend to be suspicious of Government involvement in religion, and vica versa. Then again Sweden is a different culture from the US. I would shudder to think what the religious conservatives would do here if they ever gained Federal Authority. I would probably leave the US in anyway I could. I would not want to see politics and religion joined into a singular entity. The idea of that happening brings to mind the period when the Catholic Church ruled Europe with an iron fist, and I would not wish to see an inquisition in this age. A government can also gain a great deal of control over a populace if it can find a way to control religious institutions.

President Bush G. W. troubled me when he decided to use his Executive Decision to give religious institutions tax dollars ( when I read this in the papers I then left the Republican Party and became a Libertarian ) The harm I saw in this people did not understand until I exlpained my reasoning to them. At that time there were apparently some religious organizations having financial trouble. Bush was quoted as saying he wanted to for religious institutions to get tax money becuase he also felt that they could best perform various social services as in: food programns, helping the poor, and whatnot. The harm I see is what's to prevent a Government to one day appoach religious institutions and tell them... We're going to have a vote soon on the subject of...and we want you to have sermons in support of it, or we'll cut your funding. Fortunantely he was forced ( due to alot of public inquiry) to scale that idea back abit, yet the question remains what if he did not listen and went ahead full steam with that idea? Fortunantly The US President while the singular most powerful branch of US Gov. is Ballenced by the other 2 Branches. A President can try to push various agendas yet Congress holds the purse strings. Still US Gov. structure is not my point. I wanted to express that Religion/ Politics should be kept as separate as possible.

Despite of that Sweden in practice is much more secular than many countries who self proclaim themselves at fully separating state and church.

only members of the swedish church may participate in the church elections. but yes, there are still many elements of "civil" responsibilities still entwined with the once state-church.

Paulo and 007 thank you for your replies.

Swenden does seem a more free country than the US in many ways.

I hope people do not get the wrong impression from my posts regarding the example I used of the kid who was raped by some gays. Look, there hetrosexual males who rape women, and others molest little girls. So in that sense homosexuals who rape are in the same category as hetrosexuals who rape. They are rapists. This does not mean that all hetrosexuals do that, or all homosexuals do that. There are people out there who commit crime, we call them criminals. Homosexuality is not a criminal act. What consenting adults do is their business. When it comes down to it we are all human beings. We should treat eachother with respect and compassion. I know it's a pipe dream, yet society would benefit so much if we as a species could get this through our thick skulls.

DoubleOO or anyone who knows, is a newborn Swede automatically entered as a member of the church?

not any more (up until the true separation of church and state in 2000 (or something like that)

Thank you 007, on top as usual.

Information is power, for the peoples

Inlet

The first heterosexual & homosexual marriages, courtesy of Mel Brook's

'History of the World: Part 1'

please hear me out first before lashing out on me...

there _should_ be a difference between being wed legally and being wed by the church. the problem i have is when same-sex couples demand that the church change their views. this only applies to churches who oppose same-sex marriages of course. priests/pastors/churches may be stripped of their status if they go against "what the law says". will they ultimately be subjected to criminal prosecution because of this? where's the justice in that?

go do whatever you want but do not try to change the church. if you belong to a conservative religion but would like to marry your same-sex partner, do so but do not demand that your church bend its rules to marry you. go start your own religion/cult. you've already left whatever religion you had anyway by going against its teachings.

just to clarify, this is not a "you're going to hell" post.

Yes, the wonderfully consistant Bible was quite clear that certain things should never change...

*Sits here wearing a garment made from two different fibres, tucking into a prawn cocktail, which'll be followed by gammon and lettuce salad which was possibly grown in the same field as some radishes, prepared for me by a girl who's puffy enough to be menstruating and goes to church even though she wear's severe looking glasses.

And we all know what Jesus had to say about gay folk...Don't we?

QUOTE ('From the Bible')The Old Testament law forbid priests from shaving their heads or beards (Leviticus 21:5). In the ancient Hebrew culture, men usually had long beards. In fact, it was considered a disgrace for an adult man not to have a beard (2 Samuel 10:4-5). Men taking the Nazirite vow were not to cut their hair until the vow was completed, at which time they were to shave their heads. Regarding women shaving, Scripture says that it is disgraceful for a woman to shave her head (1 Corinthians 11:5-6) and that her hair "is a glory to her" (v. 15 KJV). Other than the hair and beard, the Bible nowhere directly mentions shaving any other part of the body.

Is still any Christian out there?

--- Ya slutty b*tch ought to really take care of ya health and never evah get breast cancer in ya fjukcking life, cus if cus of ya b00bs ya might go through chemotherapy and eventually experience hair loss ya surelly officially double fjcuked up.

“Slutty bitch”? Fortunately I do not belong to a religion that subscribes to the quotes in your arsenal. If it did then why would I want to be a part of it anyway?

Hey I respect the separation of church and state. Make it truly so – not just when it’s convenient.

My point was that if you want to get married, do so legally and in any church that would welcome you. Don’t try to strong-arm your way through a church with opposing views. That church may (or may not) evolve with time but don’t bully your way through. You're not going to accomplish anything but possibly create more aversion to your cause.

I read and re read and thought and I can't remember any gays trying to "strongarm" their way into any church to have a "reverse shotgun wedding". I ask this, why would a gay couple WANT to be wed where THEY were not welcomed. Its like me going to the size zero store and trying on clothes. IT will not work.

Please...A Homosexual marriage shall not hurt any fine upstanding girl/boy marriage. If it does, please seek help from counsel.

I think some folks have this picture of Gayfolks armed to the teeth with rainbow ribbons storming into a church demanding a church wedding. That does not even make sense, giving there are Pastors willing and happy to hold ceremony for them, even GAY Pastors! Oh the horror.

Judge not! Remember remember.

Like...way back when my Mom was little..the Black folks dared not go to the "white" hospital, for they knew they would have no service, or botched service if they could EVEN get a white Dr. to glance at them. Look at today! What a difference.

Sad it cannot be like "ONE nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

As an Athiest, I'm a bit 'meh' over the religious wedding thing for us gay folk.

That is of course unless, they bring back alter bound al fresco cooking*, as not only is the smell of burning flesh pleasant to the lord, I too have been known to go giddy at scent of a BBQ.

*Leviticus 2.

You did not catch my point. "The slutty bitch" wasn't directed at you but a hypothetical example to illustrate that if religious folks really reasoned with logic they would probably realize that it's quite impossible that all of them are not against their religious teachings at some length(OK! I do Know there is always forgiveness), even though there's certainly this convenient excuse that some parts of the bible interpretation have changed to better accomodate a given time. Thus, religion due to its total incoherence has lost its credibility to back up any substantial theory of moral values.

You stated homosexuals have left the church by living their lives against its teachings. Now I have a few questions for you:

- Do you read the bible?

- Do you really live according to its teachings? Or are your sins less significant than those from somebody else?

Ya slutty bitch(Yes, I can call ya that ) should be careful when exactly to decide to marry --- What about Good Friday? --- and mostly importantly which sort of meat to be served in your fabulous BBQ ---

Lev 11:6-8

7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

Uhh, actually, I also took the slutty bitch comment to be directed at the poster herself, and was kind of surprised, cos you are normally a pretty persuasive writer who doesn't ever need to roll that way with the names.

It's an interesting question, though, isn't it? If the law of the land says you got the right to marry, but the church's policy says no way, which law supercedes the other? Would it be possible to outlaw the practice of say, Catholicism, in Sweden, if the Church's policies were viewed as inhumane and against human rights?

I don't know what the future brings when it comes to homosexuality X Catholicism. Who knows if they might change views in the next generations? I doubt it anyway. Unless, there is a complete Canonic reformulation headed by a brand new revolutionist pope or something. Who knows if they keep on losing their sheeps to other religions and/or cults or atheism something could eventually move into a different direction.

On the other hand, freedom of religion is one of the main pillars of democracy and it's not a one way street and religious leaders are very intelligent to find when they need to work on a new 'consensus'. I think they would not be stupid enough to put their organizations at risk if one day they had to decide whether to conforming to the rules of the State or not. They have been so successful at doing it in the past, i.e., during dictatorship regimens.

You know, although the Catholic church is still so backward in terms of women equality they usually are very careful to address any speech regarding this subject which could be misunderstood. In addition, their speech changes dramatically according to the cultural background they're inserted in. The Catholic church you see here in Italy is definetely quite different from the Swedish one.

It's been a while since I got slutty with any bitch...*Counts paws

Is Alexander Rybak free?

I think a sundown ceremony on Hallowe'en would be pleasantly appropriate, with you as chief mourner/bride's wench.

A big fat non-pork salami, the end dipped in creamy white horseradish, lubricated with a nice Crisco dressing.

Let me say with the way technology is advancing it won't be long before people really understand the progress of a fetus and know that it feels pain as early as 6 weeks. If you have an abortion up to 18 weeks, that baby definately feels it. And let me say this, in 10 years, 20 years, abortion will be thought of as savagry! It will be compared to slavery and The Holocaust! Millions of babies die every year for conveninece and every single woman who has had an abortion should be ashamed of themselves, unless it was for your health not to carry a baby to term. You are killing a LIVE HUMAN BEING! I do believe in choice though. The choice of whether or not to have sex if you aren't prepared to be a parent. Other than that, you have NO RIGHT as your body is no longer "your body".

No offence.

It's just when I glance at text and see caps and exclamation marks, depending on what mood I'm in, I either:

A: Think TL:DR (Too long, didn't read)

B: TS: DR (Too shrill, didn't read)

C: Mmmmmm delicious lol-milk!

What to do, what do...

Other than the fact this thread is about gay marriage and not abortion...

Perhaps the *newly* arrived although-not-invited poster in a sudden brain cell internet-induced cultural shock came to the conclusion that just because Sverige is about to be celebrating gay marriage in the church Scandinavian tall-blondie gheyers might as well be starting to procriate, hence procriation leads to abortion, capito dahlin?

If I abort where is the fetus going to be expelled out from?

Facts: Disagreement is not hate speech. A gay gene has never been isolated. While homoesexuality is acceptable in the West I go on record to say that it is not immutable, unchangable and it is a sign of decline. The Arab world rightly sees the West as weak and depraved. We could never fight and win a second world war with this current generation of weaklings running our nations.

Proof.

Proof of the points you make and whatever of the world's many gods you believe in.

The only reason the arab nations have a say in anything is the fact they sit on oil. If it wasn't for that oil, their continuing existence would be in question, as let's face it, they've hardly been paragons of avant garde existential art, science or social progression for a fai amount of time.

Arab Inertia: Fact.

What are you saying Muttlestar? Existential art? You mean like putting feces on a cross or on a picture of Mary? Im sure by art you mean showing dead bodies in sexual positions? Exisentialism? Keep it up. Abort your children, do all the drugs you want, and by all means keep partying till you are 50. Reduce your carbon foot print and by all means, dont have children. Your self-inflicted genocide will eradicate your own foolishness.

And you'll preach your poor ickle impotent heart out, and noone will care, 'cos the world marches on in the same way it has for many millennia longer than the tired cliche's you can come up with to label your dissatisfaction.

I don't know what your concept of art is, but In the world I inhabit, folk do not face physical harm at the behest of tribal chiefs, defending a superseded medieval social system for expressing theirs - however it's received.

We'll not be going backwards for the benefit of primitive egos.

Lay off the CRACK-PIPE. You are totaly incoherent. Who in the West is attacking artist's? Not Christians; we might disagree but we are not chasing down people on bikes and slitting their throats because your comrades feel it is their right to smear and insult anything they choose. As for art, when your lot can produce anything on the level of Picasso, Vermeer, Van Gough or even Monet I might listen to you. You better put the crack pipe down so you can get some sleep for work tomorrow.

don't even think that lot could produce a work of art like gaugin either. van gogh was genius, so way above.

*Gently leans over, wipes the tears from your eyes.

Not sure whom "my lot" are, or in fact as to whom are my "comrades", but I'll be sure to look out for heretical looking folk with shitty spatulas and cheeky smiles. I'll then surely gravitate towards them because your labelling of me has shown me my true, true path.

Only now do I see a clear and shining future, and it's name be impotent rage.

Why didn't you mention Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Tchaikovsky, Oscar Wilde, Pasolini, Frida Kahlo, Rudolf Nuryev, or Aristotle either?



Is your "knowledge" of art limited?

I am not an expert in art but I do enjoy it. However, if you did a panorama of the past 2000 years of including the nonsense they call art today you would find that 'modern' art is about the lowest common denominator. Mr. Existentialist however cannot honestly self examine anything he believes since he is right in his own eyes. Pity about this generation; what motivates them is not a higher sense of calling or purpose but self seeking pleasure. In 40 years Sweden, Belgium and the UK will all be Muslim countries where the freedoms you enjoy now will be lost. If you hate christianity because it disagrees with your personal choices wait until Sharia becomes the law of your lands and see what real tyranny is like.

Well Bananas, sorry if I spelled your name correctly as the fruit is spelled. Muslim will have its place in the asbeforementioned countries, but NOT if folks like you keep spewing hate.

So you admit that there will be no freedoms we enjoy under Muslim rule. We have 40 years, heh? Is that why you can't get a rental on this side of the river?

You sound a bit jealous under your burka there.

Inlet