May 25, 2012
Published: 12 May 09 18:16 CET | Double click on a word to get a translation
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/19418/20090512/
With neutrality outdated and Sweden unable to effectively defend it's borders, the country needs to set aside its hang-ups and start thinking seriously about joining NATO, argues Birgitta Ohlsson, foreign policy spokesperson for the Liberal Party.
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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Also Swedes need to realise that it is NATO countries who were Swedens real defence screen during the cold war.
The other point is this. During WW2 if it had not been for the sacrificies of Allied troops, Sweden would have eventually been invaded and nazified.
It is time Sweden woke up to reality and joined NATO.
"NATO is OVERRATED!"
Its a good idea to cooperate with NATO. Its a bad idea to join them.
http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2007/issue3/english/history.html
"Sweden backs up its diplomatic work with boots on the ground " - or maybe you have a different definition of "risk".
NATO's objectives and Sweden's objectives "happend to be on the same track" so far. But like all relationships, disagreements happen and Sweden reserves full rights to deny co-operation with NATO should such a circumstance arise. Despite the unliekliness, it does not change the fact that this CANNOT happen.
"As Sweden has demonstrated many times, full membership in NATO is not always a necessity for countries wanting to play a meaningful role in the world's evolving security environment."
THAT is the reason why Sweden should not join NATO. And here is some common sense that many people like yourself and Birgitta Ohlsson lack:
If something isn't broken, don't fix it!
Sweden 1939-45 = co-operate but dont get involved in the real stuff. (co-operating with the Nazis at this time). Have internet look around for info on the extent of this!!! Trade with Nazis, Anti-semitic marriage laws, Nazi gold, Iron ore and Ball bearing exports, invasion of Norway etc etc etc
Classic neutral card being played over and over...............indifference and opportunism as always.
I am in no way suggesting that Sweden should demilitarise itself. Infact, it should be the exact opposite. Sweden should be investing heavily in the military - contrary to the conduct of the current government who is cutting defence spending at an amount one could argue to be treasoneous. Sweden's whole militrary organ should be independent and autonomous from NATO.
Trade with Nazis ... Iron ore and Ball bearing exports
Out of absolute necessity. Ever seen a political map from 1940? Besides, Sweden leased most of its merchant navy to GBR, helping to keep your bleeding ancestors fed.
Nazi gold
Well, a bit distasteful that, I have to admit. But the majority was given back after the war to Holland and others.
Anti-semitic marriage laws
If you gonna bring the holocaust into the discussion, why not mention the tens of thousands of jewish lives saved due to swedish efforts?
invasion of Norway
??? Norway was invaded by sea and air. More of a british responsibility than a swedish one, imho.
180 swedes fought for the germans in ww2, under the special provision they would only serve on the eastern front. If Sweden had listened to idiots like you, it would have been 20 000 like in the other occupied countries and the entire swedish labourforce would have been at German disposal and GBR would have gotten no trade, no ships and no intelligence whatsoever out of sweden and tens of thousands of jews that survived the war would have died and the norwedian resistance would not have had a base to operate from.
Number of people from occupied countries that served in waffen-ss during ww2:
Norway 10,000; Denmark 20,000; France 11,000; Netherlands 20,000.
All countries have bad apples, doesnt say nothing about the country itself.
And by the way, Obama's mask will soon fall down. Look for the movie "The Obama deception"
NATO encourages its member states to be complicit in their defences by "shifting responsibility" of the defence of the member state to other member states. When all or a majority of member states adopt this very popular policy because they end up saving A LOT of money that would have otherwise been spent on defence - we end up with a defenceless, or more appropriately an easily collapsible defence of Europe and America. Sweden should be setting an example by not be going down this road.
In addition, Sweden requires more security cooperation for internal crimes of cross-border nature. Joining NATO might possibly help on these fronts too.
"Isolationism is nonintervention combined with economic nationalism (protectionism)" and we don't have that here in Sweden, we have "non-interventionism" which is a foreign policy which holds that political rulers should avoid alliances with other nations and avoid all wars not related to direct territorial self-defense. A similar phrase is "strategic independence". Examples of supporters of non-interventionism are Presidents George Washington and Thomas Jefferson (very much quoted during the FRA debacle by Swedish Liberals), who both favored nonintervention while maintaining free trade.
sebseb, what countries has the US "colonized"? I would like to know your definition of neo-colonialism.
I hadn't previously noticed that you'd taken your dubious Swedish war record arguments from the other recent NATO thread where I didn't consider them worth responding to ... to this thread where you've added some new perspectives:
Trade with GBR:
This was almost entirely one way (i.e. essential supplies into Sweden!) ... Sweden desperately needed oil and rubber amongst other key commodities during WW2 ... and couldn't get them from their industrial partners in Germany ... a constant game of cat and mouse was played through WW2 with Sweden promising all sorts of things to GBR in exchange for their next oil 'fix' ... Sweden actually delivering on these promises to the detriment of their real masters in Berlin was much rarer than making the promises! ...
... for example ... in June 1942 the British concluded an agreement with Sweden offering regular oil in exchange for significant reductions in illegal Wehrmacht military transit across Sweden ... the Swedes took the oil of course, but wehrmacht traffic promptly INCREASED from 16,144 (2nd half of 1941) and 17,714 (1st half of 1942) to 19,409 (2nd half of 1942) wagons of Wehrmacht cargo to German units in Finland and Norway! WTF?!
Swedish troops fighting in WW2:
True, the numbers were low (in the hundreds), but that probably reflects the Swedish mentality (pathological fear of conflict) more than anything else ... Churchill famously summed up Sweden as a "small cowardly nation"
As for the 10,000 who went from Sweden to Finland to fight in the Russo-Finnish war ... frankly most of those were Finns (or with strong family ties to Finland) who happened to be living in Sweden in 1939.
Swedish contribution to allied intelligence:
This is a trivial fig-leaf of a point, given that GBR had a virtual lock on vital intelligence throughout WW2, through having the worlds first programmable computer breaking axis codes at astonishing speed ... indeed towards the end of WW2 Churchill was reading Hitlers orders to German generals before the German army itself!
Jewish flight to Sweden:
The relative handful 'saved' needs to be set against all those who perished during the latter part of WW2, a conflict prolonged by essential Swedish military supplies to the axis, and the many breaches of neutrality in favour of the axis.
Also the 'rescue' of the 7,000 from Denmark was in reality one big 'shake down' ... rumour has it that the price for passage and entry across the narrow straights of Denmark was a years average salary per person (man, woman or child!) ... lets say around TSEK250 a head, or a million (in gold and hard currency) for a family of 4 in todays money ... this was divvied up between bribes for German soldiers, Danish and Swedish fisherman (transport) and Swedish immigration officials ... historians debate the ratios, but plenty of Swedes made their family fortunes from this exodus :-(
Swedish ships to GBR:
No idea where that information comes from! can't find it anywhere ... do you have a link?
Are you referring to the 'Gothenburg traffic'? (regulated by Germany and Britain) bringing in essential imports to Sweden ... although the 227/224 ex-occupied Europe sailings were evenly matched, the value of imports exceeded the value of exports by 2 to 1 ... Sweden secured oil, rubber, coffee etc etc all to Swedens own benefit in exchange for paper and forestry products etc that the allies were hardly short of (think Canada!) ... and in any case went to countries like Argentina (Swedens biggest 'Gothenburg traffic' trade partner)
My understanding was that the Swedish fleet plied the Baltic escorting German troop vessels (again in flagrant breach of neutrality)
GBR to blame for the German invasion/occupation of Norway:
wasn't even going to dignify this with a comment for obvious reasons ... suffice to say that this is not a common view in Norway!!! ... sounds like Nazi propoganda from 1940 ;o) ... Nuremburg style trials were clearly needed in Sweden after the war! ... then we wouldn't have to listen to this nonsense in the 21st century!!!
Imho, you have the perspective of a 12 year old boy waving his toysword around and demanding glory and bravery all around. Grow up and get a mans perspective will you? Swedens ww2 stance was not heroic but definately the best that could be made from a poor situation.
And no, I didnt bring this silly discussion here, Kooritze did.
That said, I wish NATO had been disbanded after the fall of the Soviet Union. At the least, I hope America follows George Washington's advice (as mentioned before here) and withdrawls from this alliance; it no longer serves any meaningful purpose other than to support corruption.
The wehrmacht got all the illegal military transit they requested through 'neutral' Sweden (despite solemn Swedish promises to the contrary to secure oil from Britain) so that was as bad as it could get from an allied perspective.
Supplies to Germany from Sweden were running at maximum capacity anyway ... the trade was extremely profitable for Swedish industrialists who had massive financial incentives to maximise production and exports ... so again that was as bad as it could get from an allied perspective.
Germany would have needed a lot more than 20,000 or even 200,000 troops from Sweden to make any recognisable difference to an army numbering millions ... (remember 750,000 axis troops died at Stalingrad, and 620,000 axis troops were lost in North Africa for example)
With a Swedish male population of around 3 million during the war, a full Swedish mobilisation for the axis would have come to a maximum of say 500,000 troops of military age, who would have needed to be trained, kitted out and battle hardened etc, and the majority would have been required to stay and defend Sweden itself.
Therefore I think it is fair to argue that Swedens actual stance in WW2 was just about as damaging as it could have been for the allies ...
... if Sweden had declared fully for the axis, military supplies from Sweden would have dried up through continuous allied bombing of Swedish industry, shipping and transport links, and the axis war machine would have been very seriously damaged, far outweighing even a maximum troop contribution from Sweden.
What right does any Swedish politician have to argue that young Swedish men and women should be dying as part of America's plot of world domination? Why are we not following Cuba's fine example of sending doctors and teachers to help solve the world's problems and promote civilization and democracy? Europe should do the same… the world is not our enemy... it is America's by their own actions.
Will our new EU representative follow in the footsteps of Bill Clinton's secretary of state… Madeline Albright, who when asked if she thought the sanctions that took the lives of 500,000 innocent Iraqi child was worth it…coldly replied as the international voice of America wit out any remorse "Yes!" Are these the people we want to be associated with?
For the last 70 years America time and time again has shown it is no champion or even promoter of democracy or human rights… it has supported, courted and funded trained the officers of every dictatorship on the planet worthy of the name… including the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. Do we really want to be a partnered with nation that spends more than all the other nations of the world combined on a military that rivals the nazi's storm troopers in their crimes against humanity? A country where foreign is military aid to support and create violent instability around to world for it own interests?
Sweden a small country with no enemies to speak of. We should be a neutral peaceful nation that champions and support the Non-Violence of Martin Luther King , Ghandi, Palmer. We should hold in contempt the war mongering and saber rattling of a of world class phony who tried to take refuge in the cloak of a real black man of peace Martin Luther King at his obscene acceptance of the Nobel peace with a defense of war as he actively planned reign more death and destruction on the innocent people of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
We should be helping people not killing them to save them. If our young people are going to die in the world outside our boarders then let them be a sacrifice for civilization something of value, with stethoscope, a book or shovel in their hands… reall doing the heavy lifting for peace and democracy by helping others caring for others in a sacrifice for peace… Sweden once understood those principles and values… I remember during the America's illegal war we gave shelter and hope to those who refused to take up arms against their fellow human beings… and now we've become this ridiculous rewriting of history by an opportunistic American Wannbe political person… what honor is there in this?… what dignity?… what noble cause?… What Swedish values?