'Swedish state should not educate imams': report

The title is disturbing. It would be much more reassuring "Swedish state will not educate imams': report"

what you mean they were...?

Is Sweden a secular state ? . if yes ? then as Religion is not Interfere with State WHY State is Interfering with religions ? Why this double policy ?

Hey here is a thought " teach them non-violence, women's rights, and to denounce exteremist's " if your going to teach them anything.

it really is more painful than sad that ppl think they know anything when they think that imams are terrorists... i feel so sorry for what we've become!

I never said they were terrorists you did, I have never seen an imam denounce exteremist's and what they preach from the Koran.

I agree with manamann!

+1 to Manamann.

I have never seen an "imam" denounce extremists either, skirt around the issue, yes, denounce it...no.

Where in the Koran does it say, blow up yourself and your brothers, kill total innocents,women and children who have done nothing to you etc I would like to see that.

because you've met all of them i guess.. hmmm, interesting!

oh, and btw, why would you assume i was directing my statement to you???? when i wrote my comment, i still didn't even see yours since i didn't refresh my page.

I have never seen or heard of any Islamic leader denounce the extremists version of the Koran, I have been waiting to here it from someone. I know that not all muslim's are extremists and that its a beautiful religion, I just wish someone from the leadership would say that what the extremists are teaching is wrong.

Imams have preached hate and violence against America and Isreal in the Stockholm Mosque. Sweden would be wise to kontrol the education of imams who preach here. Perhaps this would be a good task for Säpo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_mosque

http://www.thelocal.se/14998/20081016/

I may be wrong here but isn't this article responding to one earlier that recommended the Sweden takes over the education of Imams to stop the importation of extremist Imams? If so "The Local" should have referenced this a bit better.

If they refuse to follow the laws of the country which they are living - leave - go straight to jail - do not pass go

Other faith groups (choose one) DO NOT have similar obligations as Islam.

For muslims - JIHAD (the general meaning) is not an option - it is a requirement. A duty. It is a universal principle in the Islamic world. You don't find a similar universal rule like that in ANY OTHER religion.

Ya Don't believe me? Look it up.

!Welcome to the Internet!

Why is it always : If I am not with You, I'm against You ?

Humans are created different in every way . But can only be the same only when they live, act, share and even love in a Humane Manner...wonder when will ever this happen ?

Koran 8:30 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief by non-Moslems) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone in the whole world."

Koran 9.5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

(The above is the Ayt al Sayf, The Sword Verse, which abrogates hundreds of verses in the Koran, under the Doctrine of Naskh, 'Abrogation')

Koran 0"29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the Jizyah (protective tax) in submission"

"I have been ordered by Allah to fight and kill all mankind until they say 'No God except Allah and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah'". (Sahih Muslim)

No other 'religion' has a doctrine to forcibly convert, persecute or kill, non-adherents. Islam is more a political ideology than a theology.

_____

"Religious exteremism is a common factor and can be found in other religions also..." (mobings)

It seems that you didn't understand my post. Yes - it is true that most (if not all) religions have their own version of religious extremist views.

What sets Islam aside from other faiths is the UNIVERSALITY w/in Islam of 'struggle'. I.e> The struggle to improve society. The way to improve a society... whether in a muslim country or a non-muslim country... IS TO INSTALL MORE ISLAMIC DOCTRINES.

This struggle (jihad) is often referred to as The Sixth Pillar.

No other religion demands::: "It's my way or the highway"

Good luck with that. see above.

.

typo: "Koran 0"29" should read: Koran 9.29

No other 'religion' has a mandate of death for apostates:

"Muhammad said, 'Whoever leaves his deen (Islamic faith), then kill him." (Bukhari 9.88.6922)

All five schools of Sharia mandate the death penalty if a sane adult male, female, or child attempts to renounce, or commit 'blasphemy' by criticising, Islam (only the Ja'fari school does not apply apostasy charge to children).

The essential cornerstones of our Western civilisation are our freedoms of speech and of conscience.

Indeed, it is not the states responsibility to educate experts in the unknowable.

But if they decide to do it, then it is fair that half of the imams should be women or homosexuals.

@nutcracker: you have taken all of this stuff from different places on the internet. All of it is quoted out of context. All of this is said in different situations. Here are some facts that you would like to know.

- Islam is the only religion whose name stands for peace and is not like other religions whose names are given after personalities (christanity after christy, Judaism after Juda etc.)

- The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O'Leary in the book 'Islam at the cross road' (Page 8):

'History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.'

Yes, Imam's are necessary for a few people who always say "Somebody said" instead of thinking using their senses. It is a fact that Muslim scholars give examples regarding swimming/mechanics/scientific theories related to Koran but if these scholars are put into a river/lake/sea, or given a car/scooter/bike, or to perform operation on a sick person, they then just say the verse number and say Allah is there.

One should push them into water and make them think with their senses, only then they will never say "Somebody said" .

A 4 years old child will think logically before acting. These people are making the world cripple.

@localtribal: Sorry man, but as for medical expert advice you would ask a doctory, similarly for religions expert advice you will ask an imam. if you are lacking information, than let me tell you that there are many muslim scholars who are doctors as well as known for their religious knowledge for example Dr. Zakir Naik, Dr. Israr Ahmed etc.

@nutcracker

some more facts.

- 14 million Arabs are Coptic ChristiansChristians i.e. Christians since generations, why the muslims didnt convert them on point of sword.

- More than 80% non-Muslims in India, why the muslims didnt convert them on point of sword.

- Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, 'Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?

Dear(Nutcracker) either u have little& " little knowledge is DNAGEROUS" or u try to play with terms

1st (Fitna) is NOT (disbelief by no-Moslems) I think u r v bad in Arabic or u just copy paste it (its difficult to explain here as Wiki say there is details in Arabic is very complex lang.)

2nd if u kill anyone (even animal) (of course not lion want kill 4 instance..etc), then u r out of islamic instructions and belief.

3rd DO NOT cut, example (I want to kill all..around me) u r killer?! (I want to kill all the Swine flu viruses around me) if u got the idea then if not its ur problem.

anyway its hard 2 explain indetails here jusr example:

Koran 9:6 and if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah [i.e. the Qur'an]. Then deliver him to his place of safety.That is because they are a people who do not know.

Bread

Milk

Eggs

Fish

soul

harmony

humour

If a state is secular, it should not interfere with religion, but it should at the same time protect the rights of its citizens to learn all the religions of God correctly (if they wish) and not get cheated by the religious leaders who teach wrong things- regardless of the religion...

I have studied the Koran and the Bible and notice that in their practice in different countries, both the religious leaders and the states are doing a lot of errors. A discussion of this is in my book, SMALL MIRACLES - by Askin Ozcan - ISBN 1598001000 (Ouutskirts Press)

Books of God are clear. It is up to everyone to read and learn them. There are no conflicts in these books, nor among them. Yet, mankinds has been engaged in conflicts and wars throughout the history? Whose fault is this, but of education?

Askin Ozcan

Author

'islam' means, literally, 'submission' (to the will of "allah"), it does not mean 'peace' ('salaam' means 'peace'). 'Taqiyya' is religiously-sanctioned doctrine in Islam of deliberate dissimulation about Islam that Moslems may use to protect and further the cause of Islam. 'Kitman' is 'mental reservation', that of telling only a part of the truth.Islam slaughtered over 80million Hindus, Buddhists, Janists when it ruled for 700yrs in Indian sub-continent.France, Spain, Italy, Sicily, Malta, Austria are all European countries that were either under Moslem domination for centuries or which successfully repulsed Moslem invasions.Suras (Chapters) 8 ('booty') and 9 ('repentance') and verses therein quoted above (esp 9.5) abrogate and take precedence, being considered last 'revealed' to the warlord Muhammad

"According to Aisha, The Prophet (Mohamed) married her when she was 6 yrs old and he consummated his marriage when she was 9 yrs old..." (Bukhari 7.62.64 & 7.62.65) There are 13 authoritative aHadith confirming this: http://europenews.dk/en/node/5545 Mohamed was 56 at the time. Many Moslem nations permit child brides because of this (aHadith are, with Koran, regarded as Islam's 'holy texts'). This child sex abuse has 'sanction' of 'holy writ' and Mohamed's example.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

Sunday Times 1 June 2009 quotes Tabari re Aisha and child brides: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6394176.ece

I have mixed feelings on this. Islam should definitely not get special treatment, but it's better if special Imams are trained by the Swedish state than imported from Saudi Arabia.

So, I suggest allowing the state to train imams and priests, rabbi's, etc.

Win-win. :D

In my mother tongue, Ismal is called "Imole" i.e. the religion of force, and christianity is called "Igbagbo" meaning the religion of faith.

This is an unbiased assesment by a people who were slaughtered by muslim hoardes from North Africa and sold to slavery by White men from the Atlantic.

A day: 24 hours; Sleep: 8 hours, Wash/Bath: 2 hours, Cook/Eat: 3 hours, 5 Assemblies: 5 hours, Dr. Scholar Speeches: 2 hours, Attack others: 2 hours, Fight among themselves: 2 hours.

They either attack others or beg mercy. The world is safe until countries like Iran acquire nuclear technology. It's like providing a stone to a monkey.

They say according to Koran, they have to respect Jesus and Moses, but kill all the people who are not them.

Sweden is loosing its status as a country and is transferring to a barbarian nation where lazy crooks live on socials.

A day will come when muslims in sweden say that we are a majority here and this is our land. Before 7th century, who are these muslims? A bunch of lazy people who wanted luxury without hard work. The possibility is to gather together and attack others.

Message from Moderators



Just to let you know that we are keeping an eye on this thread as if seems to be both drifting off topic and becoming abusive

Can everyone please stick to the topic of Iman education in Sweden - off topic posts will be removed

If you want to discuss something else - start a new thread

Puffin

If it was restriction on educating imam's in Israel, there would be no discussion as they have their own stand point. But as this is in sweden, which gives places to gather together in stockholm and collectively motivate each other under supervision of imam to plan a coordinated attack on others.

Example: tennis match at Malmo. Why the hell on earth are muslim residents bothered as if the tennis player from Israel came and attacked their livelihood. They forgot their basics to respect a person and his occupation. If sweden goes on encouraging these activities like providing education of imam's, they meet 10 times instead of 5 times to make their attacks more louder.

maybe u should run for the top job tribal, if u r that concerned about the threat of islam in ur country. I'm pretty sure u wont elected though.

that's my 2 cents

Dear Nutcracker,

I dont think that u dont kow much about Islam, but I do think u misunderstand it due to anti-bias.

Regarding our mother Aisha's (May Allah be Pleased with her) childhood marriage to Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessing of Allah be upon him), this was something customary among the arabs. Her hand was already about to be given to someone else when Allah Commanded Prophet Muhammad to marry her. The Wisdom behind this Command manifests itself to a heart of faith. Aisha lived on to die at the age of 72, directly teaching three generations Prophet Muhammad's life at home. Such as, he was gentle and kind hearted, took part in house hold chores, drank from the same spot on a vessel from where she drank, ate meat from the same portion from where she ate, used to put food in her mouth, all out of love. This is what Islam teaches the husbands, treat your wives with love, care and respect. Unfortunately, many of us do not set good examples, but that is not Islam's fault.

Oh...., the time is approaching for gathering......., its true to run away......., A field should be provided for you to fight.....

One doubt: If everybody is a muslim, then with whom will you fight? is it with animals saying that they are walking on 4 legs and allah do not accept it..... or as usually among yourself?

We are all sons of Adam (Peace be upon him). All the messengers including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc (Peace be upon them all), and Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessing of Allah be upon him) were sent to mankind to warn them of the fire, and bring them closer to the Mercy and Pleasure of Allah Almighty. This is the essence of Islam. As Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger, every Muslim has the duty to invite all of Allah's Creation to save themselves from eternal destruction, and reach the Gardens of Paradis, beneath which rivers flow.

002.285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Al-Qur'an, 002.285 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

In the UK Saudi Imams spreading un-Islamic propaganda in mosques is a huge security issue. I think it's a lot better if home-grown imams teach Islam in Sweden and not foreigners who know nothing about what it's like living in the West.

Ooo, a fun off-topic discussion.

So you argue cultural relativity. This was a common custom at the time although it's not acceptable today. This is how I feel too - some things are just different today than how it was then. Today we know through psychological studies that a child that age isn't mature enough for marriage.

But here my views will differ from yours - I argue the same in regards to homosexuality. Cultural relativity. Back then we didn't know much about homosexuality - we didn't know that for example brains look different between homosexual men and straight men meaning it's something you're born with or at least something you cannot change.

So, my question to you is, what are your thoughts regarding homosexuality? You cannot argue cultural relativity for one aspect and not the other. Either you are against both homosexuality and child marriage or you are for both.

As a muslim you'll probably say you're against homosexuality. So, tell me, would you let your 9-year old marry a middle-aged man?

In responce to the above posts regarding the separation between religion and state.

The point of a separation is so that peoples individual religious beliefs are not inflicted on everyone else in society and as such it is a one way thing. Religion should not have a say in the operations of the state, but of course the state cannot just leave religion alone, especially when their activities are to the detriment of society as a whole or in some other way against the values of the society in which they operate.

For example it is absolutely correct that fundimental christians should not be able to enforce their views on abortion on to people who do not believe the same as them. In the same way Sharia (excuse the spelling if its wrong) laws should not be emposed onto a multifaith society. However when issues such as the endemic child abuse associated with the catholic church (sorry to drag up an old topic) or with religious mutilation (for example instance male and female circumsision conducted for religious reasons) the state is obliged to intervene.

The idea of a separate church and state is so that the state can protect society from religion rather than religions being protected from the state... and long may it last!

The news related to Islam always have many number of posts than any others as they show their domination and attacking nature on the news. They do not accept anything whether its right or wrong. Some imam whether educated in sweden or imported from abroad has to come and suggest them to be one by fighting as one, only then they can survive with out working hard and by exploiting the resources.

tribal, r u muslim?

To the Moderators and other readers: It will scarcely help Sweden or Swedes for the Government to instruct imams if the Gov does not truly understand what Islam teaches and the uses it makes of 'taqiyya' & 'kitman' to present a false view of Islam to outsiders (see my comment above). What I have recounted, in this & other comments (FGM, paedophilia, wife-beating, death for apostates, jihad as violent warfare or with 'pen, heart and wealth') are intrinsic to Islam's core texts; they are not 'cultural mores' or 'tribal customs.' The Gov must assert Swedish Law (as with forced marriages). If Moslem integration continues and the numbers grow, so too does their voting bloc influence and Sharia law could be introduced under the guise of 'democracy.'

Manamann, you have never heard an Imman denounce the extremists version of the Quran because there is only one 'version'. Nutcracker points out quite clearly parts of the Quran that call for the murder and submission of non-Muslims. There are also plenty of passages calling for the death of all Jews and anyone who commits blasphemy or leaves Islam. Expert; the Coptic Christians and others you mention have not been converted at the point of a sword because Islam allows them to be kept as Dhimmis, second class citizens (more like pets really) who have to pay a poll tax (Jizya) and walk in the gutter and who, if attacked by a Muslim are not even allowed to defend themselves. You should know all this, but of course, you do and are merely employing another Muslim tactic, Taqiyya, or lying through your teeth when it suits you.

I think most the People dont read the history.. Don you used to burn women ? You Europeans.. Dont you killed in the name of "Templer Knights" Dont you. My friend you cannot erase the history.. BUT i know you are 'Sitting Ducks* watching TV and believing what they have seen.

Look on your Family structure.. Born with out wedlock... The highest raps/child abuses in whole of the world. Whose priest are Pedophilles. heheehh

Look what you have got with so called "Modernity"/Liberalism.. that You would not allow your daughters/sister to walk in dark street. Unless you also born like that :)

Enjoy

As before, Nutcracker, you are spot on. Sharia law has already been adopted in parts of the U.K. for dealing with inter-Muslim issues, leading to women, children, homosexuals and many other groups having their human rights ignored. The fear of Muslim violence has led to Europe already becoming a Dhimmi state, as exemplified by the case of Geert Wilders, who was banned from the U.K (because of potential Muslim violence) and is now on trial for producing a film showing the truth about the "religion of peace". Also the term extremists is misleading. The so-called 'extremists' are merely pious, devout Muslims and the so-called 'moderates' are either lapsed, non-practicing Muslims or are following the slower course of stealth Jihad and undermining society from within. The sooner Europe wakes up to the true message of Islam the better, although it may already be too late!

boddhisatva: Thanks! The Jizya was more than a poll tax: usually computed at between 50-180% of a non-Moslem's income it was used to underpin financially the Moslem rule and eventually to force conversion to Islam as an economic necessity. Imams often advise Moslems to treat state welfare/benefits in Western nations as 'jizya'. In return for paying Jizya, non-Moslems were allowed to live in their own lands under severe restrictions on their legal rights and religious practices. Muhammad's 'invitation to Islam' instructs Moslems to 'invite' others to convert or, if they refuse, demand they pay Jizya; if they refuse to pay, then "seek Allah's help and fight them" (Muslim 19.4294)

Idialogue

I think its you that need a history lesson. The crusades of the Knights Templar (constantly used to support Muslim aggression) were a reaction to the muslim conquering of the area stretching from India to Spain and the persecution and murder of millions of Christians. They also only lasted about 200 hundred years, whereas the muslim Jihad has continued, almost without pause, since the 7th century till now (and continues in Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, Thailand, Iraq, Afghanistan, India etc. as well as in the west in, mainly, its non-violent form).

Yes, Sweden has the highest instance of (reported) rape but 75-80% of these are commited by immigrants, again mainly with a muslim background, due to the way women are viewed as second class citizens.

Enjoy

wow UK. The number 2 in Rape country in Europe.. Indeed it was first last year.. When Sweden bet it this time..

iDialogue

I'd like any of the muslims on here to reply to this post... I'm waiting...

It'll be interesting to see how Europeans deal with integrating Muslims into their countries. It probably depends on the muslim. With regards to problems encountered with Muslim Imegrants Europe is reaping what they sow. It's best to ensure that people imegrating are able to accept Western principles of Freedom.

Muslims when they are outnumbered: like sheep

Muslims when in equal numbers: Likes foxes

Muslims when in superior numbers: like wolves

"Religion of peace".. absolutely

and if you don't agree with that, they will torture and behead you!

Threating Imams as sacred cows would only endanger Sweden as a nation in the nearest future, take my words for it. In short no religious organization should be given any special preference or consideration by the state. Sweden should remain a circular nation with freedom of speech and human rights. Many religious thinking is anathema to scientific and democratic thinking. There are no middle ground.........

All Swedes better take this growing Islamic into your extremely civilized country very very seriously. All debate aside the contemporary global evidence speaks for itself, to wit : In Russia, in China, in the Philippines, in India, EVERYWHERE ON EARTH the Muslims are engaged ALREADY IN A CRUSADE. A crusade against all non-Islamic peoples and nations and governments. If you think this is a joke you are a fool. If you do not actively combat Islam it will actively dominate you,your nation, and your government. Look at every country on earth that is dominated by Islam and tell me they are civilized, fair minded, defenders of equal rights for women,gays,lesbians,non-muslims, and believe absolutely in democracy.....if you can look me in the eye and say that you are a liar and a lunitic.

Yes, I like them.

Wash your mouth out heretic!

I think we should seriously start THE VERY ULTIMATE CRUSADE against the Drudge Report's folks immediately!