'God probably doesn't exist': Swedish humanists

I like it. Reminds one of the billboards on London buses that read, "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and try to enjoy your life.

Also it seems perfectly fair. After all if Christians (as well as other religious types) are allowed to proselytize pretty much anyway they want, then why shouldn't atheists be able to do the same?

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

It is just new religion ! They have own divine graces: abortion, homosexuality, and religious independent schools

After tat there will be sodomy, bestiality, pedophilia and etc.

Poor country :o(

If most of the Swedes doesn't beleive/follow religion, how does this prove that God doesn't exist?

I think god is some super power ( may be Jesus, Ram, Allah) what ever name we call.

I agree Humanism, Ethics now we see as the democratic and secular values. But there is hardwork done by saints to make the people understand these ethics or Humanism.

Can anybody answer the following questions:

If god is not there

1) Who is beyond the creation of this universe?(Big-Bang theory is not yet proved)

2) Where is the man or any living thing coming from and where he is going after death?

I would like to participate in this discussion and also would like to how this Swedish Humanist Association is coming to this conclusion?

Jaswede. I we (by that I mean athiests and anti-thiests) know exactly what we are doing. We are pointing out the falcity of religious belief with the hope that it raises conciousness and perhaps forces people to deal with fact instead of old wives tales.

To quote Douglas Adams "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that fairies live at the bottom of it."

You can't really the prove the non-existance of something, can you? Can you prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist?

And I don't think they're attempting to prove or disprove anything by simply stating "God probably doesn't exist." Anyone secure enough in his or her faith shouldn't find that statement to be any kind of a threat.

chenna padmati.

It doesnt. But then the phenomenon of religious belief be it of one person of a billion does not prove that God does!

Nothing and no-one. Current theories do not need there to have been anything before or anything after the Big Bang. No Big Bang Theory is not proved and it cant be; if you want proof study mathematics. It is however based upon repeated observation and experiment as well as clear logical and thinking. There is very little reasonable doubt that the big bang happened what is now in question is how? All scientific theories are always more likely to true than thiestic ones as they are based on reason and not faith.

Nowhere. We die, the electronic impluses cease to ping around in our brians then we rot. If people cant deal with that thought, that is their failing and not evidense of anything supernatural.

Only a fool says in his heart, " There is no God!"

Yep, the rest of us say with our mouths, using our brains.

Russians are great. If there's one thing they're currently world best at, it's:

Gay porn.

So Russia won't allow Gay Pride marches, who cares?

It's what's inside the Russians that counts.

Yes, I mean kuk.

In fact all already exist. Furthermore, sodomy and pedophilia are common practises within Christian *cults* & spells and fairy tales as much as well. One cannot understand the fact it aint codified in the Canonic law as of late [Harry Potter should be jealous of 'em all].

Have ya forgot ya memorable back ol'times in the oratory? Love Thy neighbour(including the churchman in fancy-frocks-and-eventually-in-Prada-shoes) as Thyself

To say that "God probably doesn´t exist" is agnosticism, not atheism.

So, who created god?

Or trying not to be too offensive or getting round advertising guidelines.

Hey Miss Kitten, i really like the way you think. I totally agree with you here. If some one is secure about their religion and are confident that there exists a God, then what problem do they have with a campaign like this. Those who feel offended can go on a campaign of their own "God probably exists!"

Probably Drudge Report folk.

Regardless of this campaign, i have one question for these people, as we say someone invented this someone discovered this..... so who made this universe where every thing is running in a manner.....

think about it.....

I know who created Muttlestar Galactica though. LOL

True, true. But I suspect that with the absence of absolute conclusive proof (as would be impossible), most people who consider themselves athiest and have really thought about it could not honestly say that god definitely, 100%, does not exist.

Personally, I would say that I am 99.99% sure as there is not a single reliable piece of evidense to show he / she or it does. Technically this means that I am an agnostic however as I live my life as if he she or it doesnt exist, I behave as an athiest. I prefer to call myself anti-thiest as I am totally opposed to the idea of religious belief and am certain that the world would be better off without it. I also think that athiem is a bit of a non-statement. It's a bit like telling people I'm a non-alcoholic; the thiest is special because they believe in something extra which I dont.

The existance of God cannot be proved or disproved. If one has religious beliefs, it is a personal thing that may be of help in how one leads his/her life and the morals that they hold.

You can discuss the question of God to eternity and never get the answer. Belief in God will also never disappear because it is a part of human existance and our endless questions on the meaning of life. Scientific explanations on the big bang or evolution still do not answer the question......but only lead to further discussions on how things became and how they are. Discussions from this poster campaign will be very interesting to hear.

I don't know how the universe was created. You're right, that is IRREFUTABLE proof of the existence of god.

I also don't know how planes stay in the sky despite being made of metal which is heavy. I guess god manufactures all planes too.

Isn't it because the pilot is holding and moving up and down a stick sort of the same ones Harry Potter did?

"The God Delusion." Great book, I recommend it.

Chenna,

Let my try to answer your questions.

If god is not there

1) Who is beyond the creation of this universe?(Big-Bang theory is not yet proved)

>>>You must also ask yourself what was before the Big Bang. Was God there? If so, who made God?

2) Where is the man or any living thing coming from and where he is going after death?

>>>Where were you before you were born? That's where you will be after death.

For 40 years I remained a nominal Christian.

Oddly enough it was here in Sweden that 'my heart was opened' and I became a Believer.

The conviction that there is a Creator comes from the actual Source and is a miracle.

We cannot attain the status by ourselves.

"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."—Acts 16:14 (NKJV)

A "seller of purple"? Now that is a good idea. From now on, I own all red, and if you want to use red you have to buy it off me, mkay?

We are assuming that as human beings, we have the intelligence to prove/disprove that God exists. In the whole scheme of things, we might be at the intelligence level of a fly compared to other life in the Universe, so may not have the capacity to ever find the answer.

Furthermore, if God exists, it seems that everyone assumes that God is a king/loving being and runs a heaven where only good people go to. God might actually view us as something like a computer game and using us for amusement. God might have created the Universe and when finished moved on to the next job and left us to our own devices. As humans, we seem to think we have a real importance in the Universe when we might be just be viewed as 1 grain in the sand.

Just like some people follow motivational gurus to help them change/imrpove their lives etc, people have created religions to help people steer them in the right driection. However, as there are so many religions, which one is right....probably none of them.

For me there are 3 simple principles in life which will lead to a happier life....Treat people as you would like to be treated....use common sense.... always try to improve yourself. Who knows...maybe I'm God....I mean my wife often says "Oh my God...just shut up"

Title of article: 'God probably doesn't exist'

Isn't 'that' the central issue? Probably is not Certainty.

.nothing knew to see here kiddies... please move along!

Do you think the profoundly constructed, complex and extremely well functioning system of nature came into being by accident? No. It has started from a single cell and evolved through time, with a super knowledge of the creator we call God. Our sciences are

finding the laws of this physical/metaphysical co-existence, but so far we can not even construct a single cell. The order of the nature, our scientific findings and miracles are all proofs that there is God.

Instead of being blind to this fact, we should open our eyes and see that the books sent by God are taught errenously to profit the the rulers by pushing people into wars rather than peace, into hate rather than love; into corruption rather than justice; into enmity rather than brotherhood.

Let's read the books of God instead of ignoring their

glamorous and exciting truths.

Askin Ozcan

As an aside - anyone else feel annoyed and yet simultaneously amused by the wide-eyed musings of the believers? "How did the universe come into being if not from god, eh? Think on that." I mean do they seriously think atheists never wonder about the same stuff they do?

Food for thought for godbotherers:

1. Of course we wonder about how the universe was created. We're just not arrogant enough to believe that just because we don't understand a thing, it has to be god/magic.

2. If god is all loving and all that, how come he appears to be a fcuking racist? I mean you look at any war zone, any place disproportionately affected by deadly natural disasters, the poorest places in the world, the places where people don't even have clean water - almost always populated by brown people. Why did god create them if he feels that way about them?

500 replies by Friday.

you mean the ONLY other plausible explanation is that some divine creature decided to create it? have you asked yourself why? why would a divine being want to design a universe? why create life? if it is already perfect it has no need of amusement. amusement is to distract the imperfect. if we were perfect we would have no needs. a divine being wouldn't need a universe.

like a stem cell? but that cell has smaller parts. why did it start with such a complex organism?

i made a diorama in grade school.

you mean it's proof there is a need for science over mythology don't you? there's plenty of proof for that.

then why are you plugging your own book? are you god?

I should begin with a disclaimer – I am an atheist.

Whilst I have no objections to the billboards, it does irk me when you read the arrogant pronouncements from the atheist community. A few seem to miss the irony of ridiculing those who believe in a god whilst unquestionably following their leader (note Miss Kitten’s plagiarism of Dawkins with reference to the flying spaghetti monster).

Again, ironically, these are usually the same people that place an overreliance on science, and medicine in particular – completely unaware that religion has probably saved many lives through avoiding iatrogenesis. They probably also put ‘faith’ in Financial Advisers, Historians, Commentators etc etc.

With the above said, I did watch Religulous last night. If you get past the fact Bill Maher rarely lets anyone actually answer his questions, it’s pretty funny/worrying. I don’t want to ruin it, but look out for the great quote from Mark Pryor (a US Senator).

Are you absolutely sure that "agreeing with on the issue of the logical impossibility of proving a negative" equates to "unquestionably [sic] following their leader"? I agree with Dawkins on that, but I think he's a condescending and arrogant SOB at times.

is that like being the undead?

It's ok if God doesn't exist. Just practice the new religion and buy the newest Iphone or the trendiest sunglasses. Saved! Praise Visa!

Somebody quoted here from Douglas Adams "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that fairies live at the bottom of it."

>>>>> No it is not enough, it is like to see a good book without asking who wrote it.

(Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman)

(The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank)

scientists want to know who wrote it. they just don't stop at "the invisible man" as the accepted answer. they will continue to ask.

WHY DO PEOPLE TALK SO MUCH ABOUT SOMEONE OR SOMETHING THEY DON'T THINK EXIST?

people have such problems with religion and God because they don't want any accountability or morality.

Every civilization that has turned it back on God has fell. So let's see what happens to this God less nation.

God does exist, believe it or not you will stand accountable one day.

I am a believer, and I find this campaign funny, in that, as a Christian woman living in the West, and raised to question authority and dang near everything else, my values are far more in line with secular humanists, than they are with other God-believers from fundamental camps, be they Muslim, Christian, or Jewish. Certainly I'd rather go to a party at the atheist's, than a revival at any one of the aforementioned camps.

My belief is not something that I care to debate, nor do I care to challenge your own beliefs, whatever they are, so long as they don't intrude into our common areas- how we share the space around us. If you want to wear hijab and it's YOUR choice, not your society's, or you want to have Rosh Hashanah off instead of Christmas or would like to have a reasonable amount of maternity leave even though it's your tenth kid with your cousin-husband and you don't believe in birth control, be my guest. If you think all religion is utter bunk, but are willing to live in a society where I can practice that bunk freely, then I thank you. Bus ads don't hurt me, nor do they upset my beliefs in the slightest. Extremism, practiced in the name of God, can and does hurt millions every day. It's almost a certainty, however, that True Believers are not going to pay one second of attention to any ads, so, overall, it's a waste of money. Spur the debate with a well written editorial aimed at the intelligent, and use the advertising money to feed the homeless for a night, instead.

That's possibly the daftest comparison I've ever seen. A better one would be that the religious are told who wrote it, and then refuse to believe the answer, continuing to insist that it was god.

Why do we like discussing this? For my part, because I'm fascinated by how people can continue to believe in a thing with no evidence for it and often much against it.

Rubbish. Nature didnt just start with a single cell that was spontaniously created by God. That is just a facile and rather childish attempt to sciencify (I made that word up.. I like it) the just as silly Adam and Eve story of the Bible. Indeed the whole logic of a creator is palpably flawed. If things on this world are so complex that they nessecitated the intervention of a creator, well then who created the far more complex creator? (Kind Mans video is an example of how religous people try to bamboozle thier way out of an answer).

Not in the slightest. The apparent "order" of nature (of course postulates like chaos theory and entropy are not mentioned) only serves to show how the world could have formed in the absence of a god. As for miricles... well they just didnt happen!

actually, in a modern society you stand accountable every day.

Yes, that was some rather shameless plagiarism, wasn't it? Still, I don't think Mr. Dawkins would mind. It was his way of answering the counter-challenge of the believers. When one asks them to produce proof (any proof at all) of the existence of God, they counter by demanding proof that God doesn't exist. It's their way of refusing to participate in any kind of meaningful debate.

In their minds, the non-existance of God cannot be proven. Therefore he must exist.

WOW! he really did it!!!! he has convinced the world that they can be their own god! he has convinced the the church to allow gays to be married in a church! he convinced the kings of the world to set up he's throne upon the world and bear his mark(666)on their hands and minds!!

OOOH NOOO! boys and girls be ready to hold on to your hats! it's gonna be a showdown!! those who wear the mark of god(777) on their hands and minds! he will right all that is wrong! oooh happy day!

No wonder this country is the highest divorce rate in the world.. As you stand in Church or in a Temple... in front of God.. and say your vows... not only to your future spouse but directly to God himself... The words are meaningless..

By the way... if you are wrong... when it is your time to pass... Good luck....don´t start praying then...

Of course, the quality of intellectual debate coming out of some believers here may be another reason why atheists often seem condescending. It's misleading though - it's not condescending if you really are better.

Disclaimer: I do not for one moment think all religious people are thick, and indeed I know some very intelligent ones.

que? boeing?

Actually the United States has the highest divorce rate in the world, and also the highest percentage of Fundamentalist Christians. So, what point are you trying to make, exactly?

What? 777?

Tigger, you done bounced one too many times, child.

People here in Sweden aren't real big on the Rapture. And, having read the story of the Apocalypse more times than you can ever imagine, I'd have to say 777 ain't mentioned nowheres there. I'd save this discussion on Pre- vs Post-Trib theology for people who might be interested, but can just about guarantee it won't be on this board.

Omaro, I assume that you are not an athiest, so how would you know?

DidiE. You are right that true believers are unlikely to be swayed by an ad on a bus just as an athiest is unlikely to be swayed by a "God loves you" poster. The true believers are not the target of these ads. Rather they are aimed at people who for whatever reason have never really thought through why they believe what they do.

Why, thank you, Miss Witch. Some of my best friends, and some of my children for that matter, are atheists, too. And, contrary to what has just been posted here, I am not aware of any pray-by date posted by God. If you find yourself dying, and want to pray, go right ahead. MY God will welcome it.

*votes for more religious people to ascribe to the DidiE belief system.

i'm very ok with people being religious or not or in between. it's personal, it should stay that way. unfortunately it doesn't stay a personal choice when it influences in others' lives.

i'd guess that's why people opt to spend money on a "consider a non-religious option" campaign.

Miss kitten.. actually you are dead wrong.. Sweden is the highest by a very high margin.. and that does not include your quote un quote Sambo´s which in the states would be considered common law marriage... which would put Sweden so far over any other country... so please do get your fact correct... swedens divorce rate is at 56% the US is at about 52%... and again this number does not include Sambo´s.... you know having a house, kids, living under the same roof... the UN married... include that and divorce is up around 70%.....

If G-d created you in his likeness, he must have some significant self-esteem issues.

I second that. I am increasingly against militant atheism, there's precious little difference between trying to force non-belief on an unwilling person and the bloody irritating holy book thumping of the fundamentalist faith-heads. But if they start on me, I'll bite back.

Nobody willing to address my "God - clearly a bit of a Sverigedemokraterna fan" point then?

I made a deal, i dont believe in invisible sky wizards and i dont want any invisible sky wizards believing in me, thankyouverymuch!

Nor do i believe in talking snakes/bushes, X amount of virgins in the sky, books being send by said wizards (UPS? DHL? Postal service? Who knows!), zombies, virgin births...

Does the US divorce rate figure include people who aren't married? Cos it'd be very strange if it did.

See...the thing is there are spiritual and religious people like Didi (and me) out there. Unfortunately, we get lumped in with the nuts and spend most of our time trying to explain that you can be spiritual *and* tolerant.

I wonder if the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Vikings, and any other society that believed in a god, or gods, thought that their religion was the one true one and that all others were wrong. I bet they did. But I bet all those who are religious nowadays look at those societies (who had holy texts, stories, rituals, etc) and laugh. They think "how could anyone believe in Thor, Zeus, Ra, etc?" But isn't it the same thing? In a thousand years (or hopefully much sooner) people WILL look back on the major religions nowadays and laugh, and think the same thing we do now of past religions, that they are false. Perhaps religion was invented by someone wishing to exert control, or perhaps it emerged in a time before humans could really think about how the world works. But humans are smart enough now to look past the facade of religions and find the real truth, or at least continue to look for the truth and not give up and say "it must have been a god"

People who believe in God are insecure, leaning on a crutch who are afraid of death and think when they die God will take care of them. What utter rubbish. Face it, there is no life after death!!!

I wouldn't be so sure about that no life after death stuff. But, like God Herself, this is one of those things that we are going to find out about only after going through that one way, no exit allowed door. Me writing oh yes there is a life after death, and you writing back, Didi E, get your head out of the clouds, won't change our uncertainty here in this life. God is not likely to post Her findings on this subject on TL. Although that sort of begs the question, what name would She use, and would He need to use Youtube links?

Allowing others to believe what they will, as long as these beliefs cause no harm to others, is not difficult to do, and affords much peace of mind. Nobody's faith, as long as it is not based on a kill you to make God happy belief system, is likely to threaten your own beliefs.

Well, that is proof enough for me. God is in Her Heaven and all is right with the world. Amen.

I think this is part of the problem on this thread. I'm sure you are too polite, and too pragmatic, to burble on about your beliefs here, but look at the Arguments For God so far presented:

1. He does exist. I say so.

2. I can't understand complex matters of physics, therefore there must be a god.

3. Oh boy are you atheists in trouble come the last day!!!!11

It's not massively convincing, is it.

PS - puss puss Nicky. Looking forward to you coming to Sweden, hopefully we'll meet and I can laugh my face off at you finding that, actually, there are fat and ignorant people here too! You're buying the beer though.

@ DIDI! READING IT AND UNDERSTANDING IT ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS! when i first read it,i didn't understand it! i studied it and studied it. don't tell me that i have bounced to many times and u never bounced before! i wouldn't have typed what i typed,if i didn't have a clue!!! why do people say that people who believe in god are thick headed and we are one sided? i know people in sweden don't do the church thing they are more worldly people than godly people,but i wouldn't call then names. when was the last time u went to church DIDI? @nicole?papp? people of god aren't insecure! they aren't afraid of death. if u don't believe in god that's your choice,but i do! i never seen him or seen heaven,but i have seen his work. i seen how he has changed people lives. to see god works u must believe in him and every so often he will show his work to nonbelievers!

Yeah, but the counterarguments are just variations on a single theme:

1 You can't show me so it isn't true.

I can't show you- you are right. Why should I try? If faith is ineffable (a truly fine word to describe my own faith, anyway) then how could I show you? Why would I need to? If I truly believe there is a God, and the world is moving along just fine without Him showing up and demanding we all start worshiping Astarte and sacrificing puppies, then Glory be, let's just get on with life. It is quite obvious to me that She isn't going to step in and start running things- that's OUR job. We are the ones living here, not Him-Her. Who or what started the planet is nice to debate, but ultimately, it's how we treat the children, the older people, the homeless, the mentally ill, that shows what we believe, not some stupid bus advert or harmless, but ultimately meaningless thread. Anyway- that's the real Didi E Article of Faith. Just be nice, dammit. God will sort Herself out.

Tigger- I was teasing you because a tigger is a bouncer. You know. A bouncy jouncy bouncy kind of thing- that's the wonderful thing about tiggers. Sigh.

I went to church last Sunday. Prayed five times this week, particularly for a severely disabled child who lives with me. Prayed for others. Read my scriptures. Don't try to out-Christian me, sister, because it won't work. I don't fear death, but I do fear endless arguments that don't go nowhere- those are worse than death. I wish you peace, apologise for teasing you about your rather charming user name, and end my part of this conversation by thanking God we are all free to believe what we want.

VHW and Miss Kitten,

Sorry, it was slightly melodramatic.

However, the atheistic argument can be turned around to say 'absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence' ad infinitum.

The point I was (badly) trying to make is this: we do not have much evidence for most relevant things. We make decisions based on 'faith' many times a day. Most forward planning is of this nature. The fact an individual believes in god (whatever that actually means) is of no relevance to me. Whilst I may believe that their beliefs are ridiculous, I'm pretty sure some of my beliefs are also ridiculous, and may well have an immeasurable detrimental impact on mine and others lives.

I think your points are really aimed at religious fundamentalism, rather than simply belief in 'God'. If this is true, then I would agree with you. Although I'm still not sure how you define belief in god.

Sadly, I used to be a bit of a militant atheist that you mentioned earlier.

Weeeell there are some more arguments for the non-existence of God (of which I find the most convincing to be the sheer unlikelihood, if that's a word, of such an incredibly highly evolved being winking into existence out of nowhere. In fact technically it's surely impossible). I'm not going into them because you probably know them and they've been explained much better and in more detail by other people, and also because I feel no need to bother you with my opinions on it since you don't bother me with yours.

Spirituality or religion or whatever you choose to call it should be a personal thing, and kept that way, i.e. quiet. So should the absence of it. If we all stuck to this, the world would be a better place.

Anyway, I need to depart, for football is in the offing.

It is the creative potential itself in human beings that is the image of God.

Mary Daly

i'm not trying to out christian by no means!

i keep hearing these people talking about god and don't have a clue! i have meet so called church goers and prayers but they never seen god's work!! why is it worst than death to correct anyone who is wrong DIDI?

vikinghumpingwitch..... well.. the US people do not really have kids out of wedlock... not a normal practice like it is here... completely immoral and without values... unless it is an accident... not something we take lightly... divorce here...well... go to the supermarket... on the way out get your divorce papers... Pathetic and embarrassing..

Hello! You're retarded.

PS: The news is your friend.

amen

if only you could end it there, but noooooooo

.

that's the part people object to. your belief is yours. that you quietly wish that others might see what you see is great. the annoying part is when you won't let other people be left alone to not care about what you believe in.

i really like skydiving. i don't tell everyone that says they don't like it or that they're afraid of it or that they don't believe in it that they're wrong or patronize them by telling them that they are too foolish to see the truth of the wonders of skydiving. i don't tell them that the truth is believing and loving skydiving. i don't tell them that they'll suffer in hell if they come to the end of their lives without ever having tried it. i don't lump them into a grouping of evil or damned or wish them ill because they don't believe in skydiving. and beyond this thread i don't discuss skydiving with people who don't ask about it first.

*votes for VHW to be goddess of the earth

Well, though I first found it odd that many people here choose to have a baby (and own a house, etc) without being married I don't think so anymore. In the US this is a big taboo. But why MUST you get married in order to have a kid? Isn't having a kid with someone more about loving each other and wanting to have a baby together, not about being married. Don't get me wrong I think their are other reasons to get married, perhaps for the legal aspect of it and showing the rest of the world that you're serious (but by no means necessary to show your significant other that you're serious, hopefully they already know that).

The truth of any of the religions lays in it's pattern of propagation, i.e, pace, distance and the boundries to which they spread.

Christianity is a prime example of a 'successful' religion, yet the scale and manner of it's propagation utterly contradict any claims of some supernatural divinity.

It's spread has everything to do with politicking, trade routes and imperialism.

It plays dumb/turns sly when presented with absolute evidence that many other different religions within and without it's dominions were there a long time before it evolved.

Oh, do you know what? I just can't be bothered.

Fake god is fake. If it was real, it'd not be so utterly and comprehensively absent.

And don't start with the imaginationland ... God = ego. Faith = brainwashed into self deciept.



"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." A. Einstein

I have to ask... when your child is ready to take the leap with another person... do you say to them... hey... if your not happy in your relationship dont worry... you can just leave that person.. dont mind that you have kids... and what it does do them.. this just confirms to me that we are not from the same thread... i want my kids to understand and believe that if you want to have a family with this person it is for life... better or for worse... in sickness and in health... without marriage it makes it even easier to just say to this other person..."BYE" I am not happy anymore... we will have the kids every other week... like everybody else..

WTF?

1: What's...with...the...telegraphic...punctuation?

2: WTF are you on about?

3: ??????

1) If you are an American, please write in complete sentences so the rest of us Anglophones can understand you.

2) What does any of this have to do with the fact that I exposed your own stupidity in your first post?

3) This thread isn't about what you want for your kids. This thread is about an advertisement in Sweden.

Great googly moogly. I am so sick and phucking tired of these bible thumping n00bs coming on this forum to push an agenda no one is interested in.

If two people aren't in love anymore (and have tried things to love again but can't) should they merely stay together because they said they would, ultimately leading a more unhappy life together than a happier life apart? I think that people who want to have kids together should both really want that and should be completely in love. The problem is is that many people who have a bad marriage have this crazy that idea that having a kid will make things better (though I would like to beg to differ). My parents have always fought, and still do, and this may sound horrible, but when I was a kid, I wanted my parents to divorce, so that I wouldn't have to listen to them fight constantly! They don't belong together, they are two totally different people, but they stayed together merely because they had kids together.

There is a big flaw in your argument. Marriage does not imply that people love each other in sicknes and in health, and the opposite, not getting married does not imply that people don't love each other as much. Whether people choose to get married or not has nothing to do with the above.

Remember the "humanists" are financed by people who are themselves deeply religios (an old pre-christian babylonic religion). But they want the public to become atheists because they know they are rootless and easier to control. Like a herd of sheep.

Yes I am American! Do you understand that sentence?

1. As for your self-esteem statement, the reason that I didn´t comment on it was because it was stupid and not worth my time.

2.The thread has everything to do with kids. I want my kids to understand that in God you have morals and values. So once again you have proven to me that Swedes and Americans have nothing in common. Now I understand why kids here are the way they are. Nothing matters.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..." Romans 1:20-22

Wrong again!

You specifically stated that out-of-wedlock births are not an issue in the United States. I disproved your delusion of grandeur by citing an article from May of this year with government statistics. Ergo - you're wrong.

What you fail to understand is that Sweden and the United States differ in ethos. It is neither necessary nor customary for Swedes to marry for the sake of procreation. The same applies to cohabitation. The notion that one must be married to procreate lies fully in the Christian doctrine which is limited to fundamentalists such as yourself. Not only is your doctrine not widely adhered to in Sweden, many in the United States have progressed beyond this outmoded practice, as well.

If you truly care about your children, you would focus more on a fact based education than an emotional based value set. As I see it, if you're telling children that the birth rate for out-of-wedlock mothers is low in the United States and you fail to differentiate between cultural mores - you are more of a danger to a society than a help since you're instilling ignorance in future generations.

See - I can be concerned about children, too. I want the future of my society to be open-minded, educated and rational. The last thing I want is for my child to be taught by vox populi that he must be married to have a fulfilling, loving relationship. And the absolute last thing I will tolerate is having my child told that he's immoral by some judgemental moron who hides behind outdated scripture.

PS - We all guessed your nationality given your blind idolatry and your blistering arrogance.

Interesting. Which pre-Christian region is it specifically? What is your source of information?

Personally I disagree with your assertion that an athiest people are a rootless people, as human morality transcends any of the many religions that have ever existed.

IF i tell u that i came from nothing without parents OR if i tell u that my HOUSE build itself by ITSELF ….??!! u will say that I'm CRAZY, so can this complicated and advanced UIVERSE & Human bodies ..etc came from NOTHING, Nobody said that we will not DIE all of us but then

This is come by REASON and MIND there MUST be God & he sent prophets with proofs and evidence 2 show us(did u read about the miracles in Bible and Quran)

Scientists started now to thing again abut that ignorant idea of Darwin (that created before more than a century EVEN before we know what's the DNA is??).

So IF u don't believe in God do u have another more REASONABLE and accepted idea

Advanced Diction and Rhetoric aka Grammar?

eh...fail. no, it has to do with a paid for campaign by an international organization. i want my kids to have morals and values too. there's no prerequisite that they have to believe in a divine creature to do that. that's the mistake people make. morals and values are not the exclusive properties of a religion. morals and values reflect a society.

i value the integrity of my fellow human in my society. my moral code prevents me from forcing a belief system down their throat or degrading them for not sharing mine. provided they do not hurt anyone else in our society it's my responsibility as a member of this society to respect them as an equal member. see...not a god in there.

children must learn to respect the people they share their society with regardless of their political affiliation, religious beliefs or recreational activities. if you want to play golf, that's your business.

Ok, so who's served delishus cheese caek and linked to this story?

Anyhoo,...

(attached image not shown)

The Prayer of Raptor Jesus

Our Raptor,

Whose art is /h/entai,

shopped be Thy face;

Thy donations: cum,

Thy posts be done

in /b/ as it is in /h/eaven.

Give us this day our daily Bridget

and forgive us our trolling

as we forgive those who troll against us,

and lead us not into faggotry,

but deliver us from /fur/ries

In the name of the Longcat, the Raptor, and the Holy Server,

Amen.

Oh my.... Have you ever lived in the States? I never said that out of wedlock does not happen. Most of the time it is a mistake. Here it is normal. I have lived in Sweden for 13 years. I have seen more people having kids not only out of wedlock but also with many different partners. Again this is like a high society trailer trash country.

As for your statement that you care about kids... Your society has a horrible work force. Education is a joke. If not for the government people here would not be able to survive. There are no and I mean no awareness to other people, for instance, hold a door for someone, say thank you, sorry, excuse me. If you think I want my kids to be anything like your type of person you are insane. Close your mind to others. Stand for nothing in this world. Dont get involved with the world and stay seclusive up here what you think is Europe.

You can have it... I have no interest..

This has confused me. How can one American expressing their personal views to another American, (both of whom I am assuming are in America) prove that Swedes and Americans have nothing in common?

mbe,

The worst kind of parents are the ignorant ones and you appear to have it in abundance. I pity your kids being bought up by a narrow minded dogmatic bigot like yourself.

Please stop...Sides hurting...can't stop laughing at you.

Now I get it. Boy have you made one hell of an assumption.

you've lived here for 13 years and you haven't opened your eyes to the society around you? that's truly sad. but i think your last sentence sums it up accurately, you're not interested in seeing someone else's view on the world because if it differs from yours the only option is that it's wrong. i hope your children learn to have a broader view on their world. for their sake and all of ours.

Yawn.. Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

So...you didn't make this statement on Page 6?

Granted, it is very challenging to read a series of fragments separated by ellipses because you're more concerned about communicating your moral message than an actual message in written form, but...

Wow. And what do your native Swedish friends think of your vaulted opinion of their society and social mores? Generally, I find that people who have something to be ashamed of compare others to trailer trash.

You're partially correct. Americans, whilst overworked, are typically lazy. Again, if you're referring to *my* society, you're right. The Bush Administration turned education into a colossal failure when it enacted No Child Left Behind.

Oh. So regardless of where you hang your hat, you have your own electric company, you can extract your own gas and water from the Earth and you have no need to drive on a paved road? Oh wait. What's that? You do. Congratulations, you suck on the government's teat, as well, you parasite.

This is your idea of a problem? Not starvation? Not homeless people? But someone who didn't thank you????

Really though, no matter where you live, you're going to find yourself around what you deem as a sinner or beneath you. What I want to know is how you and your ilk sleep at night knowing you're prejudicial and judgmental. How do you sleep if you're a hypocrite? How can you expect others to act pure when you're malicious yourself? I know good Christians. Good, G-d fearing Christians who are kind, sincere and certainly deserve much better than to be lumped in with the likes of you.

7,

it is not that that I do not see others view. I accept your what of doing things. I just don`t agree it. What you want to do is ok with me. I just don´t want my kids to be like that.

I want my kids to have respect for others. I want them to open a door for someone, I want them to say excuse me if they bump into someone. I want them to also say I am sorry for that. You no what it is called "manners" .

Bender,

Would love to have the door hit my on the way out. From your mouth to Gods ear!!! How does that fit this forum. I would leave tomorrow if I could. Unfortunately I have no choice but to be here.

[quote name='Jamtjim' date='10.Jun.2009, 06:06 PM' post='430610']Omaro, I assume that you are not an athiest, so how would you know?

I`ve been there for some times in my life. And I know how it feels before .

mbe

Member Group: Members

Joined: Today, 17:45

When will you kids learn? And was there not a stand down period previously before n00b members could spill forth their e-seed? Quality LOLs however.

*Coughs

Can we get back to that god now?

Only I have progressively offensive and sacrilegious pictures to post and I'd rather their introduction was not utterly random, plus time is marching on and they won't post themselves.

***********************HI********************

1 .Firstly readers need to understand that this survey is an effort to raise funds for themselves and reduce aid for religion communities, as mentioned by themselves. So even those who are saying that God may not exist are not saying that the belief of non existance of God will help the society, rather it is an effort to break a concept that is not going in their favour.

2. Secondly, despite their wrong intensions, the question of existance of God is an interesting topic in itself and every individual should try to investigate it, because if it doesn't exist and there is no one watching and able to punish when you are alone, then why should one be afraid of lying and fraud and cheating, one should actually do all that he/she can to earn this world.(Just Imagine how the society would be then). ******Continued to next comment*****

WHO SAID THE SWEDES DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR?

What they were actually trying to say was:

"We don't need religion because Sweden is heaven on earth"

But deep down they didn't believe . . . And nor do I.

And if he is there with all the powers of being the ultimate creator then one should try to be his friend because its good to be friend of the most powerful, the most loving and the most generous. So its worth search anyway.

My humble search says that everything has creator so this world should have one, I call him God, how he is in look and feel, I dont know, but we dont have to know since how is the look and feel of human soul, do we know, No, but we believe bz its there, we cant see air but we feel it, Similarly God is not visible by eyes but human being is gifted with other senses to feel him.

***** Contined to next comment****

**** continuation of previous*****

Shortly, the way Law is needed in country to control affairs with each other, similarly religion is needed to control an individual, since no law says dont feel bad about neighbour but religion says. And to see the affairs related to religion, that talk about inner soul there has to be someone who is superior than humans, since humans cant read and judge perfectly, so that one is God.

To learn more logical and precise answers about God look at: http://www.askislam.org/concepts/god/index.html

Oooh I LOVE installments. Thank you SO much for posting the first bit like that so quickly, it makes what you say seem really really urgent, important and valid.

OMFG! All of the lunatics are coming out from the woodwork.

He's coming. The Raptor is coming.

yet you call mbe "prejudicial and judgmental"?

so we have 2 americans - one living in sweden and hating it, the other living in the u.s. and hating it as well? this is more interesting than the original topic.

I'm sorry. Could you please cite the exact sentence that states that I, "hate" living in the United States.

Nice attempt at derailing the thread but you fail.

True: "God probably doesn´t exist" is agnosticism." No attack on religion. Believers must welcome the call the think about God. Medieval proofs the Existence of God by use of logic improved philosophy more than convert. My view based on a Proofs of the Existence of God: Everything that moves has a mover. No object moves by itself. We must believe something set it in motion and created particles in the Big Bang. Or We must believe that every particle creates itself. You may laugh at either, not both. Consider the risk of undemocratic measures for survival of the noble culture of Democratic Sweden. Or, should we discuss education first?

Holy shitbrick, that link is LOL!!111one1!!eleventyone11!!!1

Question – How can I better communicate the existence of God to those that are scientifically minded?

Meeting of The Mongs

Don't know where to start! *wipes tears from eyes*

What a convincing quartet of kewliez.

carmel, I am really not prejudiced or judgmental. I just have had the opportunity to see how to live in two different societies and have made a conclusion from my experiences. I am honest, I do have some Swedish friends and we have discussed this. Strange as it may be most of them are very well traveled. So they too see the daily rudeness living here.

I just feel that people that are from here don´t know any better. They are use to it.

LogicAndBrain

Joined: 2.Jun.2009

mati

Joined: 29.Sep.2008

WTF???

Signed in under two different accounts to post crap.

Absolutely barking...

listen the answer before weeping....

Thats the problem.... if you close the door light can never enlighten you....

Give it a go...

Yeah carmel, it does seem a bit strange that somebody would live in Sweden for 13 yrs and claim to hate it. If it's that bad why not just leave? Oh well, at least I like where I live.

As for my personal agnostic beliefs, I also think there is probably not a God, but I don't feel a need to put it up on a billboard.

Yeah, some of my best friends are Swedes too...

Greg,

Thanks... If I could leave I would, lets just put it that way..

Also, I agree why post something like that.. it only causes problems..

MOAR Kitty Scripture! MOAR!

I'm a Christian. You have to give me more kitty lolz scripture coz God will be mad at you if you don't. It fits right in with the rest of the conversation here, BUT I'm laughing at it cos it's funny on purpose.

Edit to add: Wait- do you think we are linked to that far right neo fascist kill em all website in the US again? is it time to bring out the dead baby jokes? Hell, yeah- it's always time for dead baby jokes. Princess, you start, I have to go do the dishes.

HE is here!(attached image not shown)

The link is with the scripture I posted, dahling. For Old *&* New Testament!!!

well i [kn]no (sic.) what manners are and i totally agree that respect is important to have for one another. the problem you have 13 years on is that you haven't bothered to find out what signals, actions and norms exist within the culture that you live in which constitute showing respect for others. you presume your imported set of signals is universal and not culturally based. the informed and educated worldly person would have a clear understanding that cultural norms change across boarders.

let me ask you. do you teach your children to say "tack för maten" to the host/hostess before they leave the table? i hope you're not raising cretins.

mbe, I don't get it. Sounds like you're a fish out of water. If you hate it that much why can't you just leave and go home.

The divorce rate in the USA is actually higher among Fundamentalist Christians than the less faithful. Now how is that for hypocrisy? Probably more to do with the fact that generally the the FC's tend to marry much earlier than others.

I've never lived in Sweden, but on my visits there it's never seemed the way you describe. I've never found Swedes to be rude to me, somewhat reserved at first sometimes, but never rude.

I erroneously jumped to that conclusion after reading your posts complaining about certain US policies and insulting mbe's (American) nationalty based on his/her "blind idolatry and blistering arrogance".

The derailment of the original thread was not initiated by me.

I can do better than that.

What's funnier than a dead baby?

A dead atheist. All dressed up with nowhere to go.

Praise Be to the Raptor

:spits water on keyboard:

Can we stop with raptor references and pictures please.

Are you dissing the Raptor? Shame on you PP.

I prayed, and you answered, Princess. Proof that there is a God, and She likes us!

Why?

If God were Swedish then of course it would be a woman.

You will never know whether there is a God or not. Try not to worry about it or kill anyone. Thanks.

I had recurring nightmares as a child about my hands and feet getting eaten by raptors while I slept. I thought the years of therapy had worked but the hairs on the back of my neck are warning me of a bad night to come.

But when he's not selling children, He is a righteous Raptor (Proxy Be Upon Him).

Though to be fair, the first testament of Raptortude did leave some behind...

(attached image not shown)

Lalalalalalalla NOT LISTENING lalalalalalallallal

7, yes my kids say thank you for the food! And thank you for holding a door open, excuse me when they are suppose to.. and so on...Hey just for this forum again,, they even say GOD BLESS YOU,, when someone sneezes..

Gregg.. You see... I have 2 kids.. I can not leave.. Not for some years...

Visiting is much different than living!!! I liked it here when I visited too.

I'm finding it incredibly amusing that mbe (American) is getting slapped around by other Americans over religion. In Sweden. And mbe thinks some of the people smacking her/him/shim upside the head are Swedes. Priceless!

Keep it coming! I'm rolling :-)

it's reassuring that you have some understanding of local norms of manners. can you imagine how rude american kids must seem to swedes.

why won't your wife leave?

My fave incarnation of God.

(attached image not shown)

Something tells me that the answer to that question lies with the clerk at the grocery store checkout mbe referred to earlier.

Fy faaaan.

I liked Buddy Christ better...

(attached image not shown)

You see to be very poorly informed - according to the US National centre for health statistics 40% of US births occur without the parents being married - so its hardly the rare event that you portray

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayofli...rths/index.html

I'll see you God and raise you a jeebus

(attached image not shown)

Oh dear lord! Beaten to it! lol

one of the Imp thing is to believe that God Exist.for more inf please check this webiste:

www.islamreligion.com

CODE _ _

___| |__ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ __ _| | _____

/ __| '_ \ / _ \/ _ \/ __|/ _ \/ __/ _` | |/ / _ \

| (__| | | | __/ __/\__ \ __/ (_| (_| | < __/

\___|_| |_|\___|\___||___/\___|\___\__,_|_|\_\___|

This is a wonderful campaign. The entire Islamic/Judeo/Christian/Satanist belief system, is a death cult. Which has caused untold misery, death and pain.

The sooner the irrational mental disorder known as religeous belief, is removed from distorting society, the better. For those of you who think religeon is a wonderful thing, i suggest you read this.

http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/

Christianity was imposed in Sweden at the point of a sword. It should be removed, along with other deranged beliefs.

The God That Wasn't There is a documentary film that posits Jesus was a fictional character, who's story owed much to previously worshipped pagan deities.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=696492648668420724

7, Yes,, Swedish kids think American kids are rude. Wow.. how do I answer this. Swedish kids don´t see the difference to much. Kids just want to play.

you could start by reading the post correctly. i said swedes not swedish kids. just as you are an american, not an american kid, who finds people here rude because they do not conform to your cultural value system. since american kids (yes, the kids now) don't say "thank you for the food" to their host when they finish a meal swedes (of the grown up persuasion) could draw a [flawed] conclusion that american kids (kids again) had no manners. they would be making the same mistake you're making, which is judging on your cultural references rather than local expectations.

do you answer the telephone with "hello" or with your name? (hello=rude)

so why won't your wife leave if you are so unhappy here? wouldn't it make sense to return to the US as a family for the sake of the family since you are so unhappy here, you fear the influence of swedish society on your children and you would be among you own back in the US?

Where is it rude to answer a phone that way?

because in sweden the onus of politeness is on the person who answers. it's similar to answering with a company name when answering professionally.

the thought process in sweden is that you extend the infomation to the caller so they know they've come to the right place as a courtesy. by not giving that information you could make the caller lose face.

I stand corrected for the Swedish kids... As for your cultural values, It is pure common sense in the learning of respect not only to the host but to their elders. Can you understand that. Have manners! Say excuse me when you walk into someone! Hold a door open for someone when you are going through a door. If that is a flawed cultural behavior than I prefer it.

Addressing your elders with Mr or Mrs.. That includes teachers at school.. not by their first name.

As for the way I answer the phone.. and I can not believe I have to answer this question. When I know the person I say hi, maybe hello, even hey man whats up and if I dare say Hi Babe!! If I do not recognize the number I say hello and my name. Does that satisfy you?

Again... for personal reasons I can not leave... otherwise I would.. I dont think that is anybody´s business why I am staying here!

so why don't american children say "thank you for the meal" as they leave the table? are they disrespectful to their elders?

swedes do. you don't have very good manners to bother to figure out what is polite or impolite in your host society. it would be rude of me to come into your home and expect you play by my rules, how dare you come into someone else's home and demand that they adopt yours?

swedes do say excuse me albeit non-verbally. in fact their communication is significantly more subtle and non-verbal than most anglophones. and the reason i bring up the phone is because in swedish society the onus to be polite is often reversed from ameri-anglo cultures.

like personal space differs between cultures the distance behind you to hold a door differs. also, i've had a similar number of doors held or doors slammed in my face in the US.

reading comprehension isn't a forte eh? i never referred to behavior as flawed. feel free to reread to get the point i made and not the one you misunderstood.

you brought it up. and you started quoting divorce statistics as a function of a lack of god in sweden. since you're devout and so self-proclaimed well-mannered, you couldn't possibly be in a bad relationship with your wife i hope. or is it all her fault being a swede and godless and all? course you shouldn't answer that. but we will presume your marriage is a failure and believing in god isn't getting you out of sweden, you own personal hell on earth.

bummer dude. someone should say a prayer for you.

Argh! I love when the self-righteously smug and judgmental scream, "Have manners!" This idiot is just like that right-to-life idiot from Pennsyltucky who came a courtin' after the abortion article.

"Have manners!" means, "How dare you be rude to me when I'm trying to inflict my values on you."

Phucktards. The lot of them.

In that case, since you hate it so much, I'm glad that you are stuck here.

ok, ok, let's chill for a moment...

(attached image not shown)

7,

First if American children do that to you at your dinner table than yes they are being disrespectful. It is also a complete reflection of their parents.

As for your comment on non-verbal communication.. do you mean the noises Swedes make.. like mmmmm. if that is a thank you, what do you say as a response.mmm

This conversation is getting out of hand. I am sorry you can not except the fact that all people do not like it here. As for "rules", these are not American "rules" compared to Swedish "rules". This is pure and simple politeness.

People in Sweden on the whole are cold, distant and generally clueless to people and other things around them. Why must I like it here? Why is that so important to you?

As for failed marriages. I have 8 American friends living here.. All divorced. Swedish woman and American men does not work.

Hey man if you want to pray for me getting out of here,,, I can use the help....

It is not of importance to belive in God or not, as far as God is not "Institutionalized".

thank you for providing the evidence that you're incapable of grasping the concept that communication goes beyond verbal exchange. not that i think you'll understand, but non-verbal communication includes body language and facial expression (among a long list of other elements also too confusing for you to contemplate it seems)

you didn't do well on the reading comprehension section of the SATs did you?

perhaps a reflection of how high divorce is among americans. 100% of americans you know are divorced and you would like to be so you can get out of here.

sure bud. i'll say a prayer for you. you really do need the help in general. unfortunately i don't believe it'll do anything for you since god probably doesn't exist.

I surely expect that the Holly Spirit is going to hold the door open for me when I enter Heaven. It's manners, you know, IT IS MANNERS!

.....D...I...S...C...L...A...I...M...E...R... melovez dis puctuaçiòn rulez... ... ...

In sociology, manners are the unenforced standards of conduct which show the actor to be cultured, polite, and refined. They are like laws in that they codify or set a standard for human behavior, but they are unlike laws in that there is no formal system for punishing transgressions, other than social disapproval. They are a kind of norm. What is considered "mannerly" is highly susceptible to change with time, geographical location, social stratum, occasion, and other factors.

Part 1:

MBE;

Honestly. You're saying that NO Swedish kid, nowhere, would EVER hold a door for you, give thanks and that they have no manners?

I'm sorry but are you listening to how dumb you sound? Have you met every darn kid in Sweden? I myself reside in southern Sweden, and down here Some kids have manners, some don't ! It's not black and white!

Guess what, I lived in Los Angeles for a while and this one time I was exiting a theater and a kid (14 - 15 y.o) slammed the door on me.

OMG! ALL AMERICAN KIDS ARE RUDE!

Part 2:

You really need to get you head screwed on straight ! You say you dislike the Swedish society, and that you want the best for your kids.

Going back to the U.S sounds like an excellent plan! No health insurance equals no hospital care! Accidentally spill you coffee on someones pants and find yourself sued! Join the Army for "protecting the U.S" and get deployed in a country you've never even heard of, to kill off the civilian population (because that's how you "protect" your country, isn't it? Either way, they don't believe in the same god, so who cares anyways?! right?!)

Stating that Sweden's society is fu**ed up and not the U.S is just retarded! The US might have been lovely in some aspects, but generally I found it far, faaaaaaaaar, less developed than the Swedish society.

Part 3:

To All:

My personal opinion that the world needs to wake up. Religion is not only pure BS, it's whats going to destroy us if we do not stop it soon.

Children should not be allowed to be influenced by religion, of any kind. Because as soon as you develop logical thinking, you'll realize that religion is just mumbo jumbo and have no place in modern society.

Religulous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=-...EoQpQ&gl=US

The God Delusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

And Oh Yeah!

I'm not religious and I always hold the door, I always smile, I love my fellow man (esp. women!), I hate violence and I'm generally a nice guy! See!? You don't need religion to be a good citizen!!

7, mbe,

"'We've got to have rules and obey them. After all, we're not savages. We're English, and the English are best at everything.'"

- William Golding, Lord of the Flies, Ch. 2

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Father(my daddy) forgive me for spitting whey-protein shake on the keyboard of your notebook.

The perception of EXISTENCE from a human perspective is by experience.

The limited nature of our capabilities and life span makes us unable to understand many unknown aspects of creation.

If such unknown force is treated as God, there shall not be any objection to believe that God exists!!

This comment exposes the sheer unadulterated animalistic ego that's at the heart of 'true believers'.

The immature and vain presumption that they speak to a deity as someone's proxy.

The human condition never fails to amuse me.

Isn't it a religion not to believe in God? ... which makes the Swedish Humanist Association (Humanisterna) a religious organisation.

What?

So we should fill in the gaps of our knowledge with magical invisible entities, hey presto!

Fjuck me, have we really travelled so little from the cave mouth?

Hopefully this subject will disappear on 300 posts so can we all make an effort to get it there as soon as possible.

I expect better from you.

Who said it's a religion not to believe in god?

THIS is ... how you WANT to .... BRING UP ... your KIDS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-HgBrVLv5I

Oh, is this still going? I thought me and Didi pretty much wrapped it up last evening.

<feigns surprise>

There's another 150 posts of well reasoned argument to go until we hit the magical/divine 300 mark.

Is it correct to jump to the assumption that if you don't belong to some religion or other you automaticcaly also do not believe in some higher form of intelligence some of us choose to call God?

If the intelligence exists, it has most likely always been around. Religions on the other hand, are creations of men all based on someone's interpretation of the mysteries of the universe. And true to human arrogance, all believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

God can be believed as the CAUSE of the situation - "not the non-existent existed, nor did the existent exist then"

Just try NOT to post #666 though you could face a fatal fate.

Odd question, as I'm sure we all know folk who believe in some higher power other than the Hindu, Aborigine, Abrahamic or any other of the many gods.

If? No one can be certain, as there's no actual evidence.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

"Perhaps God doesn't exist" is correct if God is considered as a being or an enity.

The concept of god as a superior being capable of doing a rescue act was indeed a fascinating idea.

God was the most sublime creation of the collective human mind.

God was man's answer to the mysteries of the existence.

Perhaps God doesn't exist atleast in the form we assume!!

I like how you think.

All these divergent views are due to human obsession to worship God rather than Understanding the concept God.

I am so sorry for the people who are behind the scenes of these kind of campaigns. I am interested to know their real intention to do that.

Why do you insist to impose this believe that God does not exist? What is the benefit for that?

The answer is really simple: "Because you are afraid of religions". If you accept that God exists then you have to accept lots of things rationally. In order to escape from the reality and truth, the question is eliminated. Interesting but hypocrite solution!!

This is all under a public control called "Mind Control".

I recommend the readers here to take their time and watch this valuable documentary: "The Arrivals". You can find it here: http://wakeupproject.com/

In video section. You can also find it in Torrent.

"If you really submit yourself to God, he will guide to the right path"

Cheers.

"If there were no God, there would be no atheists", and "I am still, thank God, and atheist"!!

prrmjau,

wow... you sound more unaware of the US than I have heard for a long time.. Yes.. you lived in LA.. Pull your head out of your butt.. Why do you talk about the no insurance, no health plan and the spilling coffee on the lap... Get over it.. Yes Americans sue to much.. on the other hand do you know why we sue so much.. hmmm.. to protect people.. To have laws that make sure store owners clear away the snow.. for instance..

As for Americans going to war... OMG.. how dare you even open your pathetic mouth... Your country stands for nothing,, does nothing.. fights nothing.. lets Hilter walk through.. say nothing.. do nothing.. please dont hurt me... we will speak German if we need to.. If not for the states this world would be un protected.. Your culture joins nothing... not NATO, not the Euro.. barely has a seat in the European community..

Burka smiley knows no such thing.

mbe, how do you know what country prrmjau comes from or what their cultural background is? They have only posted twice and neither post mentions it.

Can we stop the America bashing, it's soooo dull. America's a great place, and it'd be even better if it wasn't so goddy, but they'll get there.

Lol, why are you still trolling mbe? Everyone, including me, already thinks you are a complete moron and nothing is going to change that...

As he's one of god's chosen and our protective shepherd, I'm guessing he just knows his flock.

I say as today is Thursday, everyone gets to open their pathetic mouths. mbe, cos you're not the boss of me, so there. And as it's Thursday in Sweden we'll pour peasoup and pancakes down respective pieholes. You may or may not believe in God, children's manners, and the hegemony of US firepower, but you sure as hell are going to believe in an inescapable fate if you try to eat anything else today in this country.

Yeah, I thought we had summed this up nicely last night, but it will be interesting to pop back in every so often and see how this thread evolves. The detour to kid's manners was unexpected, so who know what else will be offered as evidence for and against the Divine Big Kahuna?

Great how?

In answering, please place the USA and its greatness on a scale relative to how great England, Sweden and Uzbekistan are.

I agree that bashing the US on this thread is largely irrelevant however.

I guess the intention is to raise peoples awareness to the fact that God "probably does not exist". I dont see why you feel sorry for people who want to add their little bit into dragging human kind out from the quagmire of religious insanity. If anything it is them who should feel sorry for believers with their brains befuddled and their interlectual potential curtailed by supernatural nonsense.

Havent the religous fruitcakes been imposing their belief in fairy tales for millenia? Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot its suddenly seen as being somehow distasteful!

Damn right I am. Not because of the illogical, poorly thought out, lunatic ideas they proffer, but rather of the way religion corrupts peoples minds so that basically good people can do evil things. Society will never move on whilst religion exists as it propegates unquestioning faith instead of clear and reasoned thought.

Thankfully, there are people out there who are investing their time and money to make the world a better place by slowly but surely breaking down and exposing religion for the damaging, dangerous and childishly illogical mumbo jumbo that it so obviously is.

Fantastic and cheap food, welcoming people, incredible variety of places and landscape and weather and such, availability of cheap electronics and clothing and general Stuff, bison, Family Guy, er, is that enough?

Above in comparison to UK and Sweden.

I really don't see a issue here. Its no different to when various religious groups do their advertising.

Hell- its better.

These guys are just saying God probally doesn't exist. There's no evidence he definatly doesn't but there is a hell of a lot he probally doesn't so they're just going with whats verifiable.

When religios do the same...they just outright ignore all evidence and yell that they're right and everyone else is wrong. No proballys about it.

Those are certainly some positive attributes from the many on offer.

PS Jesus sux.

If they could just get over their God fetish and take up football instead, I think the US could be the greatest thing on the planet. Well one of. Maybe. They'd need to sort out fire ants and hornets too.

Not to mention black widow spiders and rattlesnakes.

We've got our football américain. Unfortunately proper football (US/CAN:soccer) is still considered a girl sport in the US. Maybe the NASL should invest in billboards that read, "Jesus wants you to play soccer."

!

It's quite apparent that you still haven't mastered the art of sentence structure and punctuation. Here's a tip: put down your Bible and pick up a composition book. I'm sick of your tripe littering this forum.

Interesting subject. Here is my personal findings:

God is energy and a positive spirit...therefore God exist everywhere in the Universe.

God created both positive and negative energy. Under Universal law of "Free Will", Human beings may choose to embrace positive or negative energy or both.

Human beings have soul and physical body, However, something is missing. The soul is not yet a spirit. For the soul to become a spirit, it must attain a high level of spirituality. This is called consciousness. This process of spirituality is referred to as purification or cleansing of the soul or making the soul lighter.

Human beings currently exist in 3rd/4th dimension (recycle) where the souls is very heavy/dense and to move into a higher dimension (5th-12th density - what we perceive as spirits), the soul must attain this high level of spirituality or consciousness or light soul.

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/Scienc...ensions-en.html

Negative and positive energy both play a role in these soul evolution processes. The negative energies awaken the unconscious souls and the awakened conscious souls attracts other negative energy to be awakened. So, more souls can evolve.

In essence, every soul is given a chance to evolve. However, many souls will make the choice not to evolve and will undergo a recycling process again.

These processes are currently reaching its final stages in 2012. Many have termed it "End of the World". Fortunately, it is not the end of the world but rather an ascension of positive souls to a higher 5th dimension (spirits) and the negative souls to recycling in 3rd dimension.

In the 5th dimension, the ascended souls will be invisible as spirits to the recycled souls in 3rd/4th dimension while the recycled souls in 3rd/4th dimension will be visible to the ascended souls in the 5th dimension. Sounds cool...huh

The process of attaining this high level of spirituality or consciousness (full positive energy ) is the essence of negative and positive energy. By presenting souls with both positive and negative energies, the souls learn, experience and choose a path of high spirituality/dimension.

Every creation goes through the process of quality testing and trials. The Universe is no exception. We are part of a make up of the Universe and we cannot ignore these facts.

Unfortunately, Religion, Education and Science has failed to recognise this and people have disconnected from the Universe and spirituality. Many people have taken up beliefs systems such as Atheist, agnostics and other forms of Religions without realising the effects their choices has on their soul evolution.

The so called "New Age" teachings is the closest people have made to search for the truth about the Universe, spirituality, consciousness and soul evolution. They have helped to awakened people to the importance of the Universe and its abundance life and energy.

It is important that people understand that positive and negative energy flows through their thoughts and with their collective thoughts, they are creating their realities in this 3rd/4th dimension.

These human actions is bringing about the changes that is coming and everyone must accept responsibility and face the consequences without apportioning blames on one another.

Every creation in the Universe has an end and everything starts-ends-start again. We are now in that time where souls with high positive energy are readying to evolve and negative souls are redying to be recycled.

If you wish to read more on these subjects, here are few useful links:

Earth Transformation - Different perspectives

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxQsLLOYC7Q...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHtvmMtaXJI...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRfGyz3-IJU...lated&pos=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC_wPOK6SOk...feature=related

I will suggest you have an open mind when researching this subjects as majority of the information cannot be passed off as Conspiracy Theories...although some seems so.

Some people refuse to recognise the connection we have to the Universe and they consider open discussions about the Universe or 2012 as conspiracy theory or New Age religion.

Everything going on in the world (Religion, Wars, Crime, UFO, Globalisation, Global Warming etc) is not by accident. Its free flow of our positive and negative energy. We are constantly creating these realities through our collective thoughts. What version is good or bad?

What we must be focusing on is having a positive thoughts, to generate positive energy, for your soul to evolve and move to a higher dimension. These may seem a mountain to climb but once you are half way, its easy all the way ahead.

Everyone is welcomed at anytime to accept positive energy...its not only for Christians, Muslims, Born-again, Buddhist etc. Ofcourse, unbelievers such as Atheists, agonists, witches and pagans can make the choice to choose positive energy and allow their soul to evolve or remain in negative energy and go through the recycle process again. The choice is yours.

So in conclusion...God exist as positive energy and good spirit. Devil exist as negative energy and evil spirit.

In his physicality on earth, Jesus was a Holographic imprint of God in positive energy, hence his assertion that they are both the same. When we attain that level of spirituality, consciousness and positive energy, we will possess the miracle powers/energy of God.

The negative energies on the other hand will continue to use their negative energy power to awaken the sleeping souls. The path you choose will become your reality in 2012.

I hope this helps. If you find this post interesting, please pass it on to your loved ones.

Note: I am not into Religion or New Age stuff. I am simply me...in Oneness with God.

Crackers... absolutely crackers...

The world can't end in 2012, we'll have to last at least another year so the London Olympics can be held.

My personal findings, if anyone is interested (and I'll keep this on the side of brevity), are that praying for sun doesn't work.

In other words, God is responsible for magnetism.

I'm an insomniac-agnostic-dyslexic. I lie awake all night wondering if there is a Dog...

^

That's one of my favorite jokes.

And as mass and energy are effectively the same thing (e = mc2 and all that), he must have created heavy things.

Implication: My beer belly is holy...

Like when Palpatine encourages Anakin to become Vader.

Tell the truth: How many times did you watch the Star Wars movies?

When I die, I want it to be over.

But you will live on in perpetuity on the World Wide Web.

The Internet is the 4th dimension. It exists beyond time and space. It is not bound by the three physical dimensions or any temporal moment.

Your energies will forever be tied to the post that you just made, making a complete rejection of existence impossible.

One really needs to explore all of the metaphysical implications of posting at the Local before pushing that "Add Reply" button.

This is such a good ad-campaign. I'm glad we live in a world where it's possible.

Amen.

Reply to Vitasa

"It is just new religion ! They have own divine graces: abortion, homosexuality, and religious independent schools

After tat there will be sodomy, bestiality, pedophilia and etc.

Poor country ( "

Not saying anything about this being a new religion , that being a topic for debate in it self. But id like to point out that even YOU seem to aknowlege that Religion leads to Sodomy bestiality pedoohilia and so on. It is poor country indeed that cant remembe there history. Mabye you augth ponder why that last time Religion rulde Europe it was calld the "dark age".

I have read the recent article and many of the comments. I appreciate everybody for participation to be concerned on this topic. I am truely fervent over this debate. I wanna write my views on it.

Ancient man knew that rain came from the sky, but nowadays

we know everything about how water evaporates from the sea until drops of water fall on the lan. Science doesn't tell us how these events became laws, or how the

water is held between heaven and earth in these stunning and beautiful forms (clouds).

When man claims that by discovering the laws of nature he has solved the mystery of the univer, he is only deceiving himself. When he makes this claim, he is

putting a link from the middle of the chain at the end.

Nature doesn't explain anything (about the universe). It itself is in need of explanation. Read this debate that could take place between intelligent man

and a doctor who is prominent in his field:

Q: Why is blood red?

Dr: Because there r red cells in the blood, The size of each cell is 1/700 of an inch.

Q: OK, but why r these cells red?

Dr. Because in the blood there is a substance called haemoglobin, which becomes red when it is mixed with oxygen in the heart.

Q: That's fair enough, but where do these cells which carry haemoglobin come from?

Dr. They are manufactured in your liver.

Q: Wonderful! But how r all these things--the blood, cells, liver etc.--connected to one another so perfectly, and how do they each play their part with such

precision?

Dr. THis is what we call the laws of nature.

Q: But what do you mean by the laws of nature?

Dr. What we mean by the laws is the blind internal operation of natural and chemical forces.

Q: But why do these forces always produce the same result?

How r things regulated so that birds fly in the air, fish live in water and man lives in this world with all his amazing potentials and capabilities?

Dr: Don't ask me about that. My science only tells me about waht happens, it does not answer the question about why it happens.

Huxley said: "Any talk of this nature is utter nonsese. None of our branches of science--untill the present day--know what type of accident could produce such a

great reality with all its wonder and beauty".

The idea that life happend as the result of an accident is like saying that you could get a dictionary as the result of an accidental explosiion in a printing press.

Everything in the universe tells us that it was brought into existence by an omniscient, wise Creator, but man is unjust and ignorant.

"The Creation of the heavens and the earth is indeed greater than the creation of mankind; (Quran 40:57)"

What would u say about a man who tells you, I have seen a ship laden with cargo, filled with goods, in the middle of the ocean, being buffeted by waves and winds,

yet despite all that, it is sailing smothly and following a straight course, with no sailors contolling or steering it. Is this reasonable to believe?

"This is irrational". If it is not rationally possible for a ship to sail smoothly across the sea without any sailors or crew, then how is it possible for this world,

with all its different forces and factors, with its vastness and huge variety, to exist without a Creator or Keeper?

"Were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators?" (Quran 52:35)

I appreciate that Swedish people don't worship man made idols however I suggest to start research few minutes every day about God and His messengers.

Regarding the Q that as one cant prove 100% that God dose not exist one cant be a true atheist but an agnostic, Could it be worth pondering the ide that maybe by proving that say the Bible is some what dodgy you can asses that the storys in it alsow are fake? Ex, To dissprove Gandalf i dont actually need to dissprove him him selff but rather just prove that The Lord of the Rings is a fairytail?

This went way past the number of pages that one is able to read in one sitting if one also holds a job so forgive the repetition

Great point. Thought the debate would end right there.

Better point. Thought the thread would at least die there!

Ummm love you loads but could have fooled me.

VHW aside, atheists do seem to claim a greater market share of the great corporation of Condescending the SOBs who Disagree TM

And really, the thread SHOULD have at least ended after this very astute reply.

Science does not explain everything. For example, it does not explain why there are so many religious nutjobs on this site.

Science = using rational thinking to explain observations

Religion = everything unexplainable must be because of a god = sheer lunacy

Haha....Probably that comment will generate another hundred or so postings...

Please do tell me where the doctor in this story is located. I want to avoid going to him at all cost.

Has anyone else here received a PM from this user with the exact same post?

Nope! Haha...Nothing from any relegious fanatic in my inbox,only interesting informative Q&A!

Topic merged with "God Probably Doesn't Exist" thread.

Erm... no it doesn't. The more facts that science provides about the world around us, the less room there is left for any supernatural hokus pokus. Nothing at all indicates the presence or participation of a God in any way, dispite the desparate protestations of priests, immams and their wooly thinking like the world over.

Another thought. Who is the most ingorant? The well informed and reasoned atheist or agnostic (or anti-theist) or the brainwashed, thousand-year-old-fairy-tale-believing religious whackjob? As for unjust, when was the last time innocents were massacred in the name of atheism?

Some clever person said that science is corrosive to religion... and I think that thankfully they may be right!

Gah I wasn't going to get into this but consider this an:

OPEN LETTER TO THE RABID ATHEIST

Really people what in the world makes you think that your lack of belief -or indeed your anti-belief- qualifies you as the superior and allows you to rightfully call people names?

You KNOW this is not about intelligence or ignorance or anything to do with anyone's IQ. You must know that, you're well educated, highly able to logical thread of thought individuals, you're surely perfectly aware this all boils down to personal choice and yet your attitude is distastefully verbally attacking.

I mean really, while tempted, I personally like to believe I do a good job refraining from referring to atheists as say "utterly bubbling fanatics", don't I? I never, just because I think you happen to have it wrong, call you "nutjobs" -despite some of you looking like nuts and thankfully being gainfully employed-.

Never mind me, even the more militant religious types -although, for a tangent, IMO, while God is one, all religions are not in the least equal - who speak up in these threads fail to end arguments with "well atheist, you're a sodding moron!", don't they? If anything, the way atheists -less so agnostics for a gross generalization- present themselves with the slander and the uncivilized name calling does, sometimes, justify the temptation of employing insults and yet most seem to refrain just fine.

I can tell you it's not a fear of being kicked out of heaven that stops me from calling you idiots when you exhibit the very behaviour you accuse others of, it's not the scare that God will strike me or that I believe my Bible will burst into flames. It's being civil. Pure and simple. You seem to manage this trick on other topics, why can't you on this one?

Respectfully,

Ignorant Whackjob Believer

Hey Whackjob, I'm a whackjob believer, too. As you state, it does all boil down to personal choice, so I usually bow out of debates discussing God's existence, as nothing can be proved one way or other. I do find discussions on religious or atheist beliefs interesting, but never enter into one thinking I am going to change anyone's mind- I just like learning how other people think about such an important issue.

The thing is, and I don't mean this at all in a snarky way, I have yet to see any discussion on religion ever stay civil. Not in the real world, not in cyberspace. Asking people to be civil doesn't work, because something about the idea of God, or non-God, seems to touch people at the very core of their being. People have been so hurt by evil masquerading as Religion and calling itself God that civil discussion just doesn't work. I think the huge problem in this discussion is that so few of us can actually separate out Religion (man made, developed to enforce power and privilege) from God (who is ineffable, and cannot be debated, period.) Your Sister Whackjob in Skövde

PS to add, I mean, so few believers can separate out God from Religion. I doubt that the non-believers give a toss. D

Not sure about the religious refraining from insults. On page one there's somebody saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is a fool.

One of my favorite quotes on organized religion. I happen to completely agree with it when it comes to fanatics...

QUOTE ("Jesse Ventura")Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business.

Rabid I may be, however technically I am not atheist. Truth is that I cannot totally 100% discount the existance of a god but dont think for a minute that I entertain its existance. I am more than 99.99% there is no such thing and I live my life as if there isn't however it has not yet been proven conclusively and may never be (even in mathmatics there are statements which CAN never be proved even if they are true) I cannot definitely state "God does not exist". I see myself as anti-theist as I am totally opposed to religious belief.

No, I disagree. The question as to whether God exists or not is a scientific hypothesis even if no way yet exists to investigate it. This existance or lack there of is not within anyones control and so cannot be possibly be seen as a personal choice.

As to faith, well that is not a choice either. I do not choose not to believe in god just as the pious dont choose to believe. What we all choose (even if this is passively) is whether we investigate why we believe what we do in as level headed and unbiased way as possible. I myself was raised a christian but didnt as much lose my faith as never was really convinced in the first place. My subsequent interest has led me to investigate the phenomenon of religious belief with the result that I have never seen, read or experienced anything which would lead me to believe in and plenty to indicate the non-existance of a deity (at least of the type religions portray).

My use of the term whackjob was not meant particularly to you and in hindsight, was ill advised; my appologies. However I do see religious belief as a type of mass delusion and, without meaning to be offensive (but accepting that this will be taken as such), that religion is a type of vestigial mental quirk left over from our evolution. How otherwise intelligent people can believe such illogical nonsense never ceases to amaze and confound me, and I guess that this is what fuels my curiosity in the subject.

That said, I make no appologies for believing that my lack of belief is "superior" to your (or anyone elses) belief. Indeed all people see their faith or lack of it as superior else why would they believe it. For a start my belief is based on years of interest and research (far more I suspect that your average believer). In addition, my belief is based on scientific fact and not supernatural myth and thousand year old, uncontempory, biased and edited accounts. Furthermore humans have historically seen the reduction in the number of deitys as progress. Monotheism is seen as an improvement on polytheism. You yourself are a disbeliever when is comes to other peoples god, I simply go one god further.

My Open Letter was all about the tone of the debate, for every insult we hurl on forums in the name of non/religion a butterfly loses a wing, surely we can refrain from hurting butterflies!

Accepted. May your your butterflies live long and prosper.

I imagine DidiE will be disappointed in me for engaging and for good reason these type of conversations always deviate and early but famous train wreck attraction in progress...

Untrue. You chose to read that wrongly. I very clearly said God is One. It's their religion that sucks

Make no mistake about it, you and I have nothing in common when it comes to this issue, I believe, you do not. There's no one-God-many-Gods-no-God chip bargaining.

Allow me to use the pious term of "bull". I didn't get hit with a holly thunder, didn't feel a burn of sacrament deep inside of me that forces me to believe and not investigate I made a sodding choice. Why you wouldn't own your choice to do the opposite is beyond me.

I'm sorry if my "testimony" makes your theory of how we're all feeling and not thinking and generally basing our faith on little more than Virgin Mary's in Ebay muffins kinda ridiculous.

Here's something that will even further blow your mind, believing in God does not necessarily bring about it believing in the Holly Book of that religion, believing in God does not automatically mean believing in/being happy with said religion or any other one, while believing in God is in one's heart -if they have one, not my case LOL- it is certainly filtered as a choice in their minds even if they do not realize that is the case. Heck, not all those believing in God live the moral percepts they know God would be happy to see them live by -shock, horror-. And the reverse in all of the above. Heck, the reverse is the most likely, the ones liking the cake at the Sunday school or thinking legitimizing an AK7 or a clit-snapping is fun, the ones who have fun reading the poem in their Book and enjoy interpreting it ad-nausea, etc. Have you asked people which sort they are? Have you even asked if they believe in God?

All in all, for how well educated, scientifically partial, critical of thinkers you anti-theists, atheists and agnostics are, I would expect a tad more refined inquisition on ideas before lumping Whack-jobs.

Erm... you what?

I never said you got hit by anything. The point I was trying to make was that you for whatever reason you believe in a deity and this is not a conscious decision. During difficult times in my life, I have often wished that I too could believe in a benevolent god who would look after me in my time of need. If I could have choosen to believe maybe I would have done, however I couldnt and didnt. I cannot speak as a believer as I have never been one, but I am unable to choose to believe in something I am pretty certain doesnt exist just as I would guess that you are unable not to believe something you hold as true.

In the same way even if we wanted to believe that 1+1 was not equal to 2, we could not. You may believe that it does because you have always been told so or that you think that it is "obvious". However from a mathmaticians point of view this is not as obvious as is might seem. Indeed at the begining of the 20th century, much energy was devoted to proving beyond doubt the most basic axioms of mathematics (the proof that 1+1=2 takes over a hundred pages in one of my books). Hense you may believe that 1+1=2 because to you it seems given, I believe it as I have now seen and understood the proof. What is common to us both is that we could no longer choose not to believe it.

When it comes to religious believers, very little blows my mind any more. The way the pious twist and turn in order to despairately cling on to their faith in the face of unrepenting evidence to the contrary is no longer a suprise. Indeed the faithful who do not cling to a particular book or institution have more of my repect that than those who do, however this does not make them any more correct. A falicy is a falicy regardless of numbers.

I make you right here. Indeed the most moral people who I have met have been atheist.. with no religious hankerings in the slightest!

What about the polytheist religions? Are they all wrong because monotheist religions say so?

Not to mention that they[polytheist religions] are significantly much older than the latter, and were at several occasions intentionally and systematically removed off when was absolutely convenient to implement a new "paradigm".

It is the huge fat elephant in the room, that the measurably oldest human representations of religious belief have nothing to Christo-Judaic/Abrahamic religions, or any of the other monotheist religions these people speak of with such bizarre and creepy fervour and repetition..

I mean, you could maybe have some respect for their particular belief system even if only it's core structure had measurably and unequivocally been in existence with strong planet wide historical evidence, but alas it simply just isn't.

The evolutionary process of ancient belief systems into what we see today is as logical as the evolutionary processes actual living organisms are subject to.

Sun worship, agriculturally focused astrological parables, animalism, fertility concerns and worship of the feminine have through time been refined into the big three monotheist religions that dominate much of the world today.