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Swedish school slammed after 'homo sin' claim

Swedish school slammed after 'homo sin' claim

Published: 04 May 2011 16:02 GMT+02:00
Updated: 04 May 2011 16:58 GMT+02:00

"The Schools Inspectorate has criticised... Andreas Gymnasium for not having followed the statutory requirements with regard to the school's fundamental values and work to prevent and hinder students from being subjected to degrading treatment," the inspectorate wrote in its decision.

The inspectorate furthermore adds that the incident is particularly serious as the school has been criticised before for not taking measures to protect students from harassment.

Andreas Gymnasium, a school for students aged 16-19-years-old located in Solna, was reported to the Schools Inspectorate by a student in February 2010.

The report contained allegations that teachers at the school had on several occasions presented homosexuality as a sin, a view upheld by the school's principal at the time during an assembly.

"Most of the school's students are in agreement with the principal that homosexual acts are sinful and those who don't think the same risk being frozen out," the student wrote in the report.

"Something has to be done against the prevailing attitudes towards homosexuality shown by certain teachers and students," the student argued.

The school's current principal, Therése Wallén, who was appointed after the incidents described in the report, told The Local on Wednesday that the school has accepted the inspectorate's criticism and plans to address the situation.

"We have to work harder to develop our equal treatment plan," she said.

Many of the incidents described by the student occurred during discussions specifically concerning how to address the school's value-system covering issues such as race, gender and sexuality.

As a basis for the discussion a reading was made of texts from the bible. The student argued that the verses were interpreted by the principal to present her view that homosexuality is a sin.

Therése Wallén explained that while the bible is used in religious teaching at the school, she argued that it is not used as a basis for other teaching.

"It is true that the then principal gave the bible's view on homosexuality. I think it was wrong that it was used on this occasion and that no further discussion was held," she said.

The Schools Inspectorate noted that the school had declined to deny the student's claims that members of its staff have forwarded views linking homosexuality and sin.

When asked by the The Local for her opinion as a representative of the school on the issue, Thérese Wallén replied:

"We don't think it is the school's role to express a view on the issue. We follow the law and treat all people equally regardless of sexuality."

The Schools Inspectorate has reminded the school of its responsibilities according to existing legislation and has called on them to submit a report on measures adopted to address the complaints by July 2011.

Andreas Gymnasium was previously criticised in 2007 by the Schools Inspectorate with regards to the deficient development of its value-system.

The school has also received media attention in the past after a former principal told Sveriges Television that its teaching provides for students for learn alternatives to the theory of evolution, such as creationism and "intelligent design".

Peter Vinthagen Simpson (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

16:07 May 4, 2011 by Roy E
But it is a sin by that moral code.

The critics of this school are caught in their own trap of diversity and mutual respect. They cannot make their case without simultaneously screaming 'We are the ultimate Hypocrites! ' to the world.

You see, some are more equal than others....
16:11 May 4, 2011 by Tanskalainen
Don we now.........
16:17 May 4, 2011 by HYBRED
Thats assuming they had any respect to begin with.
17:01 May 4, 2011 by saraswed
why are they critised Christian organizations just like the catholic church do not recognise "homo"what is the hype here.
17:15 May 4, 2011 by byke
In b4 nemesis
17:17 May 4, 2011 by DJECKY
this a seriouse issue bcs people from certain areas knows that homo is a taboo,and a seriouse crime,a sin and some forbiden both by the bible custom and tradition but to others its just candy,cocacola and cake.thats how the human race are we should learn to accomodate everybody so that we should live together.some belief in the bible some belief in the koran,some still in the koran want killing as a form of punishment,some belief in vegetarianism.so all these makes the world,but for same sex to make love is really disgusting hahahahhaa very funny really.
17:24 May 4, 2011 by byke
To what degree should homosexuality be taught in schools anyway?

Yes children should be told how the world is diffent but i can't see why this needs to be debated or enforced that certain views or ideologies taught/enforced.

I think you start to tread on very thin ice when you have schools ensuring the values of ideologies. As anything as important should be left up to any person to decide their view on the subject, the same as politics.

But again I can't see why the moral ethics of homosexuality even needs to be brought up for debate in a school. It is what it is and people should have the right to view it as they see fit.
17:30 May 4, 2011 by calebian22
What does independently run Christian School mean in Sweden? Isn't the point of having a religious school to be able to have religion classes along with the national curriculum? I don't see what the hubbub here is all about. There seems to be a double standard here, coming from the State. "You can be independent as long as you are not different."
17:34 May 4, 2011 by philster61
How dare they insinuate that Jesus was a homo. Ok, so he hung out with 12 guys for 3 years. They all slept together. And didn't have sex with women....
17:54 May 4, 2011 by darky
Is it not a sin? Spoiled society.
17:58 May 4, 2011 by Lee451
@philister61

Sir: Using your logic then most armies were gay throughout most of history. Having women serve is a relatively recent invention. But trolls do not like logic or rational thought.

Why should schools be teaching that homosexuality is "just another lifestyle"? While some animals in nature exhibit homosexual behavior MAN is the only creature that perverts his nature in that manner full time. There is a reason there are no (completely) homosexual animal species. Can anyone figure out why?

Homosexuality, like addiction, is a genetic-based mental disease. Much as I am not required to succumb to addiction (I have fought it all my life), a pervert is not required to succumb to his base desires.

You do not have people going to psychiatrists saying "Doctor, I am straight. Can you cure me?".

God can cure all. One merely needs to ask for His help.
18:04 May 4, 2011 by Observour
@ Philster61

So you are claiming Jesus was a homosexual to make you feel less guilty...Actually for those of who are straight, it doesn't matter how long you take shower together or sleep in the same room, you will never find the same sex attractive.

SERIOUSLY, we should be able to talk about our views on sexuallity. The Bible, Quaran, and many cultures in the world define homosexuallity as either a gravy sin or disgusting taboo whilst many atheist and liberals think it is not. We should be free to talk about the different views we have without anybody FORCING the other to accept their view.

Christians, Muslims and Conservatives should not force their views on Homosexuals and Homosexuals should stop forcing everybody to accept that their practice is holy. Christians and Muslims disaggree on whether pork is holy or not but this differences should not prevent people from expressing their view.
18:11 May 4, 2011 by calebian22
Observour,

Gravy sins are the best! Terrific with meatballs.
18:22 May 4, 2011 by Observour
Calebian22

Hahahaha,

Please I mean grave sins. The bible does said that 'stolen waters are sweet and bread eaten in secret is pleasant....but the end is death'

Don't try the 'gravy sin' dear
18:36 May 4, 2011 by zircon
The deadliest of sins: man (kind) taking the apple from Eve's hands, coming straight from the industry of the devil and his evil hiss. And then it's banishment from the heavens for thousands of years to man and Eve. "It's a true story, Kate..."
18:57 May 4, 2011 by stenhuggaren
religion is a sin
19:27 May 4, 2011 by Observour
@ Stenhuggaren,

If one acts against the coded laws, it is a crime and Sin is going against the moral and devine law of God. A 'religion' created by human reasoning and lust against God's law is sin.

Of course there are different views about what God's law is, but that is just another thing that we should be free to talk about. In any case I hope that you don't construe 'religion' as 'belief in God'. Keep searching for God and you'll find him.
19:43 May 4, 2011 by swedejane
Wow, a "christian school" (which is an oxymoron in itself) teaches intolerance? Shocking. Here's a clue, if you want your kid to grow up with half a brain then don't send them to a so-called "school" that teaches about imaginary friends and eschews science for such useful skills as counting all the begats in the old testament. I hope these so-called schools don't receive actual tax dollars...are expectations too high?
19:58 May 4, 2011 by GLO
Sorry, the Bible is clear... and the words are real. Should you be Godless then you can live by any rule you make up. Sweden lives by Godless Laws, thats just a fact. God has written his words for all to hear, you can choose to listen or not.

That dosent change the facts!
20:51 May 4, 2011 by Roy E
@swedejane

pssst, jane. Don't look now, but your bigotry is showing.
20:52 May 4, 2011 by swedejane
It's true. I am biased towards intelligence and rational thought. Religion is mutually exclusive of both.
21:30 May 4, 2011 by Observour
@Swedejane

Oh sorry for your misunderstanding, but christians don't teach intolerance. Recognising that homosexuallity is a sin said by God does not mean you don't tolerate those who practice it. Of course you are careful not to make them 'have a crash' on you but you always have the strong desire with prayer that they change someday. No true christian will be happy to see others in uncomfortable position with the law of God. Sin makes people naturally fearful and intimidated when they come into the light of the virtue of morality and shying away or becoming emmotionally turbulent doesn't help.

The beauty is that God gave us all free will and choice so we should be able to live together and talk about the different views without forcing advocates of morality to shut up to make liberals confortable.

Actually, Isaac Newton and many supperior scientist believed in God, so faith in God doesn't prevent one from being intelligent or rational. God bless you:)
21:40 May 4, 2011 by technoviking
@ Observour

"Recognising that homosexuallity is a sin..."

Yes, this is called intolerance jacka$$.

Your silly desert fairy tale doesn't allow you to decide what consenting adults do with their genitalia.

Since no one is being hurt there's nothing "moral" about this issue.

It's closet homos who hate themselves who are so worried about it.

blurtit.com/q446401.html

You sound a lot like Ted Haggard to me.
21:58 May 4, 2011 by jamesblish
I can't make up mind my about this as I don't know enough about the context in which homosexuality was criticized. If it happened during religion classes and the teacher clearly stated that the BIBLE VIEW is such and such, I don't really have a problem with it as it is true that the ol' book of fairy tales DOES condemn homosexuality in several places. If the comment was made in another context, however, we might have a big problem. Especially if it was made in such a way that it was the SCHOOL'S VIEW as an institution, that homosexuality is wrong. That is reason enough for a closedown in my opinion.

Regardless though, this is what happens when you allow religious institutions to run schools. It simply should not be allowed.
22:07 May 4, 2011 by Observour
@Technoviking

I am well used to your tactics of trying to paint everyone who dared you as 'secret homo' including even Jesus. Just appreciate the fact that heterosexuals have the right to also express their belief just as you do with yours.

Thanks for the link to your 'research' and Ted Haggard. You can also pretend to be heterosexual, get sponsored by your team to a popular position and then 'come out open' to make your club popular....but you can't fool anybody the big politics of this movement and don't forget you stil have a chance with God.
22:15 May 4, 2011 by engagebrain
'19:58 May 4, 2011 by GLO

Sorry, the Bible is clear... and the words are real. '

The Christian bible is also pretty tough on those who eat shell fish and pork.
00:17 May 5, 2011 by zircon
Seriously, religion is good for you and your soul. And chastidy is strife and ambition. But secularism is universal, like democracy when born in Athens. Democracy was never designed for practical delusions or solutions. War and politics, throughout time, have proven to be stronger than blood.
00:42 May 5, 2011 by technoviking
@ Observour

Haha. Also, tell us about what we should do about Numbers 15:32-56 that tells us to kill those who work on the Sabbath?

Should we kill the cashiers at the supermarket this Sunday?

Or do you just pick and choose which rules to follow like a proper hypocrite?

PS - Don't forget you can still come out of the closet. You still have a chance with Rod.
00:53 May 5, 2011 by Camlon
What about focusing on what they say in mosques and muslim schools in Sweden? Where they say a lot more than homosexuality is a sin. http://wn.com/Stockholm_Mosque

Instead of focusing on small problems like this.
01:50 May 5, 2011 by rakerson
Being an American, it is shocking to see this blatant disregard for allowing people to believe what they want to believe, and say what they want to say. To outlaw any discussion is not only shocking, but also reminiscent of several totalitarian regimes around the world and throughout history.

At the same time it is wonderful to read the comments listed by such wise Swedes in opposition to this social conditioning.

Being a Christian in the US we hear several stories about how most of Europe has lost it's faith in the Almighty, but it seems alive in Sweden.

Roger Akerson

Springfield, Oregon~ USA
02:41 May 5, 2011 by Da Goat
Most every one has missed the point really the surrounding verses say: don't have sex with your close relatives (illegal by man's laws) don't have sex with children, don't have sex with animals (see the picture) and don't have sex with the same gender!

I am totally happy to lump them together as written and have no desire to be an abomination to God (I guess that means God is disgusted by these acts)

Now the tricky question, why is homo sexuality not a sin but paedophilia and zoophilia definitely are and also incest??? Why is one ok and the others not? this is the real double standard. this school is faithful to their creed and anyone who calls them hypocritical is playing pocket billiards and is guilty of their own accusation!

western society is based on Christian values (morals) if you don't like it move to the middle east or Asia, backward places where Christian values are not used .

it is the general public that has the double standard not the ones upholding the original standard!
03:15 May 5, 2011 by JoeSwede
To be a Christian means following Jesus and reading His word. If the independant school understands His word to be so then let them teach it. We don't critize the liberal Swedish Church for having a different interpretation.

Let us pursue our lives and follow our dreams. Following God's path is for some but not for others...let there be freedom of choice.
08:27 May 5, 2011 by lungfish
How many people die in the name of religions?

The bible, as the koran and other religious texts, was written by men in order to control others. The beliefs expressed are fantasies and superstitions.
08:56 May 5, 2011 by galexe
For Christians homosexuality is a sin and nothing else, whatever ideologies and social trends claim to be different. And for Christians it is a duty to dennounce the sin. Pretending the equalitarian society, the ideologists take rights from Christians and give them to homosexuals. According to them, Christians are free by the limit of respecting the governing ideology. It was the same in the Roman Empire, it was the same in the Communist era.
10:21 May 5, 2011 by Lavaux
Sweden is a very tolerant country ... that is, unless your value system doesn't meet the Schools Inspectorate's demands. So if you believe homosexuality is a sin, you must be persecuted and risk being "frozen out" until you recant your silly beliefs and sing from the right hymnal, just like everyone else. After all, you don't know more than us, you're not smarter than us, and you're certainly not better than us!

Jante's Law meets multiculturalism. Only in Sweden.
11:24 May 5, 2011 by Roy E
'Be tolerant or we will destroy you' is the value system in practice here.
11:26 May 5, 2011 by Keith #5083
This book (Bible) that every1 quotes, says in it's 1st Chapter 'and God saw all that He had made...and behold it was very good'.

Between that and the fairly non-judgemental words/actions of Christ, the rest is all 'man-made and man-biased narrative'.

If 'traditionalists' want to defend 'scripture interpretations', then they should live by all the miniscule rules and not simply those that suit their 'control freak' personalities.

If modernists wish to 'enlighten' others, they could start with a very very heavy dose of tolerance.

Almost all 'religious or scientific' views are indoctrinated conditioned responses and are not even the product of free independent thought. Most are certainly lacking in that most holy and scientifically productive quality of lovingness.
12:13 May 5, 2011 by William Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha
Well said Keith.
13:34 May 5, 2011 by jamesblish
Thank "god" we've lost our faith in him because there is little to gain from that and we are a much too modern country to seriously believe in such nonsense.

This is not a matter of being allowed to say what one feels, this has happened within a school and that makes it vastly different from anything else. As I said in my previous post, it need not be a problem if this was said during a religion class and the teacher made it clear that this was a passage from a mythological text and not in any way "true". I seriously doubt it was though, as it most likely would not have been reported in that case.

The problem with "christian schools" or any other religious school is that they're an oxymoron. Schools shall be dealing in science and fact ONLY and the only place for religion is in religion classes, in which they discuss various mythologies such as christianity from a scientific perspective. Of course it's possible for a teacher to have a faith of his own but it must never influence his teaching or he is a bad teacher, period. Because science is truth and how can you seriously think that there is such a thing as a "christian" truth? Truth is universal, not personal.

So please tell me, what is the point of schools run by religious institutions? It can's be about "values" because there are very clear rules both on state and kommun level, on what values and rules should be taught and how we should deal with various problems amongst students. So, again, what is the point of having a religious school, if not for brainwashing? None.

The whole point of having schools, especially public ones, is to free ones mind and give those who are unfortunate enough to come from less intellectual families some breathing room and a chance to learn something that is NOT tainted by their parent's values or somehow censored from view because it doesn't fit with the family religion. Giving parents the opportunity to send their children to schools that don't do that, is child abuse. Parents should not be allowed to have that control. The only reason we're allowing these schools is because KD is part of the government and we all know it.
13:47 May 5, 2011 by technoviking
So Christians please answer us heathens about what to do... It's so confusing.

Guide us with your wisdom...

Should we stone to death or at least vilify everyone who works as a cashier, waiter or on Sundays as directed by Numbers 15:32-56?

Or is only the hating gays part of the bible valid?

How do you decide which parts to follow and which to ignore?

Please explain the exact criteria.
15:04 May 5, 2011 by Rick Methven
@technoviking

The Lords day observance society in the UK has vilified shop workers on a Sunday and 'heaven' forbid that you drive a car in the Mea Sherim area of Jerusalem on Shabbat as the stones will really fly. There are still some religious nut cases around that have favourite bits of the Bible/Torah that they want all of us to uphold, while conveniently forgetting other bits that do not fit in with their personal lifestyle.
15:20 May 5, 2011 by Roy E
@technoviking

Perhaps you should just try understanding what it is you're talking about before going off on your rants based on apriori assumptions. In other words, stop embarrassing yourself .

Here's a hint: There's this thing called 'The New Testament' . That is the Christian portion of the Bible.
16:13 May 5, 2011 by Rick Methven
@Roy E

So in your 'book' the Old testament has nothing to do with Christianity?

Now who's embarrassed himself
17:20 May 5, 2011 by technoviking
@ Roy E

So, it's just the ten commandments we should pick and choose from the Old Testament, then?

Unless of course you are you're a particular brand of fundamentalist or Calvinist and the Laws still apply...

Or a christian conservative like Pat Robertson who calls on them as needed...

Or you are a Christian creationist who believes in Genesis literally...

Hell, America was founded by Puritans who believed in the authority of the OT.

I spent several years in Catholic school, Roy. I understand the distinction. In reality, passages in the NT go either way on what to do with the OT.

You are simply pointing out the crux of my argument which is that the selections are based entirely on subjective interpretation and nothing "divine".

But I'm sure of course that YOUR brand of Christianity is the right one isn't it?

Funny to hear you argue abrogation... Just had a similar conversation with a Muslim recently. You have quite a lot in common actually.
18:29 May 5, 2011 by Lavaux
- jamesblish -

I refer you to Karl Popper's work on the philosophy of science. In a nutshell, most of what people (including most educators) nowadays call "science" really isn't. Regardless, they ram their non-scientific beliefs down our kids' throats as if they were scientific facts, e.g. AGW and anthropogenic evolution. I wonder how suchlike would react if they ever saw a black swan.

Scientific theories are not facts. Until scientific theories become scientific facts, said theories must remain subject to falsification. Scientific theories not subject to falsification are actually religions, such as AGW and secular materialism. Such religions are no different than sectarian ones except that they demand their followers to conflate a false epistemic certainty called "science" with faith.

For my part, I'd rather put my kids in a Christian school than one entirely lorded over by the Schools Inspectorate if only to partially insulate them within the light of reason from today's prevailing dogmas.
18:59 May 5, 2011 by jamesblish
"In a nutshell, most of what people (including most educators) nowadays call "science" really isn't. [random rant on ae and agw]"

- Right. You don't believe evolution or global warming is true. And you're a christian, I suppose? Let me ask you, do you doubt certain scientific facts because you're more knowledgeable than the vast majority of the scientific community? Or is it because they happen to be incompatible with your faith?

Look, you can only argue with people up to a certain point, after which it becomes a meaningless waste of time. Some people just won't accept facts. Some don't because there are scientific reasons not to, but most don't because it interferes with their own personal beliefs which is just plain sad.

"Scientific theories are not facts. Until scientific theories become scientific facts, said theories must remain subject to falsification."

- Yes, some of them are. The definition of a "fact" is essentially a theory that has been thoroughly tested in a clinical environment, and seems to be true. Gravity, for example, is a theory. ONLY a theory, as your evolution-denying friends might say. You can go ahead and pretend like you're smarter than you really are, and call things theories instead of facts. Do it, if it makes you happy. Question is, how much proof do you need? Every single time an apple has fallen from a tree, it has been pulled to the ground. Not once has an apple stopped mid-air, hovering as if suspended by invisible threads. So despite the trillions of times it's been tested, the "theory" of gravity is just a theory. But at what point will you accept it as a fact?

"Scientific theories not subject to falsification are actually religions, such as AGW and secular materialism."

Secular materialism is not a scientific theory, it is a philosophy and yes, the basis of a lot of modern science such as physics, chemistry etc. This is because in order to produce real facts, we must be able to observe. Surely, even you must understand this. There might very well be a God, for example, but there is not a shred of evidence to support the theory and hence, to claim that He exists would be an untrue statement. So the debate over Gods or any other question like that, is a philosophical matter, not a scientific one. It's an interesting discussion but as long as we can't prove God's real, he isn't.

"For my part, I'd rather put my kids in a Christian school than one entirely lorded over by the Schools Inspectorate if only to partially insulate them within the light of reason from today's prevailing dogmas."

Right, so you'd rather your children be taught mythologies and unproven lies, than actual science? Because there is a chance that some scientific facts might be revised later on? Yeah, that sounds reasonable.
19:40 May 5, 2011 by Lavaux
- jamesblish -

Wow, such unrefined hatred! Maybe you ought to cut back on the caffeine and energy drinks in favor of warm milk. Do you some good.

Hatred? Indeed. Discussing epistemology and theology with me is a "meaningless waste of time." Hmm. My "evolution-denying friends" also deny gravity because it's also a theory, which is why they deny that what goes up must come down. And I suppose quantum physics - also a theory - doesn't postulate an explanation for gravity different from Einstein's. Problem is, the current state of science doesn't provide tools to validate or falsify the competing theories. Hmmm. Just like AGW. Yet I should give up my car, warm house and prosperity to save the planet. No thanks.

"Surely, even you must understand this," you write. Yes, because I'm a Christian, I'm an idiot. All the more so because I insist, as did Popper, on a rigid epistemic discipline to keep science from religion's throat. Not so you, however ... so full of hatred for those who don't subscribe to your creeds and dogmas. Can you also be tolerant in this state?

"Right, so you'd rather your children be taught mythologies and unproven lies, than actual science?" Indeed I would. After all, I'm a lawyer, and most of the law derives from the secular progressive myth that mankind can legislate reality. But the universe doesn't work that way. If it did, then the law books would accurately describe the societies they purport order and regulate. But they don't, do they?

Just so scientific theories. They only postulate how nature works until they are falsified or not. Between "falsified or not", scientific theories remain postulations. Repeat this after me, jamesblish, and then we can talk. Otherwise, take your hatred elsewhere. I haven't got time for it.
21:02 May 5, 2011 by jamesblish
"My "evolution-denying friends" also deny gravity because it's also a theory, which is why they deny that what goes up must come down."

- Really, they do? Because I never said they did, I merely explained to you the definition of a theory and why the word theory does not mean it's untrue.

"And I suppose quantum physics - also a theory - doesn't postulate an explanation for gravity different from Einstein's."

- Are you asking if it's possible that the universe might work in a different way from what Einstein put forward? If so, sure it is. You see, I'm not a fake scientist, I don't just accept truths that make me feel good. And although I'm not educated enough on quantum physics to have a debate about it on a high level, neither are you. But to the best of my knowledge, a lot of it is the best we have at the moment.

But I'm sure that in a 100 years from now, people will look back at us and marvel at how little we knew. I really hope they do because that would mean we've made progress as a species.

Your main problem here is that you judge modern science by a set of guidelines that you don't seem to apply on your own world view. Nothing of what you say changes the fact that religion is myth and should be treated as such in schools and that schools shall teach children facts based on modern science and, ideally, free from moral judgment.

"Problem is, the current state of science doesn't provide tools to validate or falsify the competing theories. Hmmm. Just like AGW. Yet I should give up my car, warm house and prosperity to save the planet."

- You're rambling again. I really have no idea what the first sentence means. Does modern science NOT provide tools… to validate competing theories? Sure it does… but again I have no real idea of what you mean here, so I can't comment. Sorry.

"Yes, because I'm a Christian, I'm an idiot. "

- No, IF you're an idiot, and I don't know if you are, you're an idiot because you as a person are dumb. I know plenty of bright christians.

"Not so you, however ... so full of hatred for those who don't subscribe to your creeds and dogmas. Can you also be tolerant in this state?"

- I don't know where you see hatred. I am a tolerant person, I have never stopped anyone from believing in anything. It is not my business what deities people believe in, although I have a right to question their ability to critically examine things if they do. Criticizing science for being uncritical while at the same time believing in a God, is ironic to say the least.

"Indeed I would. "

- That explains a lot.

"They only postulate how nature works until they are falsified or not."

- At what point does a theory become "not falsified" Of course facts are only facts as long as they're not disproven. The point of science is to disprove things so that we can have facts in the first place. Religion on the other and, is all about believing in things in absence of evidence, of even despite them.
22:26 May 5, 2011 by technoviking
@ Lavaux

Out of curiosity...

In all seriousness, what evidence makes your religion true and not just a fairy tale?

Why can't I just as easily worship Harry Potter?

Obviously a circular argument is not valid, "The book is true because it says it's true." Etc...
01:38 May 6, 2011 by Keith #5083
"Everyone is a prisoner of his own experience. No one can eliminate prejudices--just recognize them." Edward R. Murrow

"It is in this recognition that we disempower them - and empower our lovingness"

gg
03:47 May 6, 2011 by jimfromcanada
The passages from Leviticus that list the abominable practices also include things that are allowed today in the Christian tradition.

In the first century Paul appealed to the apostles in Jerusalem about what was required for a Gentile to become a Christian. They said that the only thing that was required was to refrain from eating meat with blood in it and refrain from sexual immorality. All the laws about eating pork, and circumcision etc were abrogated. Paul's interpretation about sexual immorality seems to say that homosexuality was not acceptable, probably because it involved exploitation. Sexual morality is also defined by the society, though, so the standard has to have another criterion. One of the best ways of finding such a criterion is to look at Jesus' teachings. He said the law could be summed up as "Love God with all your mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself."

So don't exploit others in your relationships, whoever and whatever sex they are.
04:03 May 6, 2011 by JoeSwede
So....are we going to tell the Christian school what to teach? Why even allow private schools?

Are private churches ok? Is having a private faith ok?

At some point the money lenders need to be thrown out. Back off and let faith and yearning for Christ's true desire prevail.

Liberal Christians and non-believers need to learn how to respect conservative Christians.
10:18 May 6, 2011 by Rick Methven
@JoeSwede "Liberal Christians and non-believers need to learn how to respect conservative Christians. "

Like the Westbro Baptist Church?
14:23 May 6, 2011 by cogito
@18 Sarahswede ..."christian school" (which is an oxymoron in itself)...

and

#29 jamesblish... "christian schools" or any other religious school is that they're an oxymoron..."

Unlike whichever schools you went to, perhaps these schools teach the difference between an "oxymoron" and a "contradiction in terms." Not the same, though the semi-educated are unable to grasp the difference.
14:25 May 6, 2011 by DamnImmigrant
It is really stupid that publicly funded religious schools are allowed. In an egalitarian society, allowing certain segments of the population to prevent their children from obtaining an EQUAL education, because it violates some religious principle, turns these children into second class citizens. They are LESS the equals that those children who's education is not restricted by religious demands.

Equality of education creates equality amongst its citizens.

Any religious dogma that the parents require their kids to have, should be taught outside of their children's SECULAR education.

I am amazed that these god fearing bible "christians" have NO idea where their bible came from nor the TRUE history of christianity. Their deficit of thought is really saddening.
15:42 May 6, 2011 by MarshaLynn
DamnImmigrant above is sadly misled. He or she apparently thinks that the Bible came from some place other than where it did, as has been known for 2000 years now. There were witnesses to the New Testament at the time its various books were written in the first century A.D., and people who lived in the 2nd century A.D. had known these people and wrote regarding them, such that there has been a chain of command regarding the New Testament handed down. Any thinking person can study this issue on his own. There is always a rash of bogus information trying to discredit the authenticity of the New Testament, but if you study the issue seriously, you will discover that serious biblical researchers -- including non-Christian ones -- know that the New Testament was written during the first century, that Jesus actually lived, and that his apostles actually lived.
16:04 May 6, 2011 by MarshaLynn
Facts regarding homosexuality:

Male homosexuals in general have multiple sex partners (sometimes numbering in the 100s) in a lifetime, even within the framework of committed relationships. Studies show this to be so. San Francisco State University released a study in 2010 showing this to be true, as have other studies in the past. Here are two links regarding that study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2906147/ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html

The proper way to approach the homosexual issue first and foremost is from the health angle. Because there, it encounters serious problems. What is all this noise in society about mainstreaming homosexuality and making it acceptable even to school age children, when in fact (and I emphasize the words SCIENTIFIC FACT) it is a serious health problem to the practitioners of the lifestyle?

Do we encourage heterosexuals to have numerous sex partners throughout their lifetime? No, society does not encourage that, because not only does it cause emotional instability (especially in females -- studies show this to be so), but it also causes rampant disease in society. So, if we don't applaud such behavior in heterosexuals, why are we excusing it in male homosexuals and attempting to mainstream their behaviors? Male homosexual practice in general is so fraught with serious health problems, it causes their lifespans to be shorter than average. They are prone to HIV and STDs, as well as numerous other serious health issues such as cancer and other conditions, which are directly attributable to homosexual sexual practice. And as the studies linked above show, they are as a rule unable or unwilling to practice monogamy, but instead have serial sexual encounters in their lifetimes.

Why on earth is society so eager to legitimize such unhealthy behavior? I'll tell you why: because it has been politicized, and the truth about it is suppressed for political purposes. And maybe society just wishes the license to behave as decadently as it chooses, with no censure. But your own body censures you when you contract STDs and fall prey to health problems that shorten your life.
17:11 May 6, 2011 by tadchem
Does the Swedish Schools Inspectorate have the legal authority to dictate to religons the content of their doctrines and beliefs?
17:38 May 6, 2011 by Roy E
@technoviking

Spending several years in Catholic schools means that you spent several years in Catholic schools. That's all it means. It does not necessarily mean that you comprehended anything. It is noyt a badge of authority by any strech of the imagination. Based upon your projection, it seems rather apparent that you did not even attempt to comprehend any of it.
19:50 May 6, 2011 by technoviking
@ Roy E

Haha. Fortunately I'm not claiming any "authority".

I'm just pointing out your complete lack of it to speak for "Christians" as though there is some sort of unified interpretation of the bible.

There isn't. Because it's written by men and interpreted by men like any other document.

But like I said, I'm sure YOUR interpretation is the correct one and those who differ are wrong.
19:59 May 6, 2011 by DamnImmigrant
That you MarshaLynn for helping me make my point. Your ignorance of your fellow humans seems to be as clueless as your knowledge of the origins of your beliefs. Thank you too for showing us that ALL ENCOMPASSING love that YOUR GOD (not mine) has taught you.

The Swedish government should not be funding this kind of insanity that masquerades as religion. How many warnings do these schools get before they are shut down? Hopefully soon the government will realize that claiming religious freedom while projecting hatred is not part of an Egalitarian Society and should not be supported by the taxpayers.
20:36 May 6, 2011 by 3rdjerseyman
And, do the "authorities" have the guts to enforce their egalitarian vision on the Madrassas run by another great monotheistic religion?

I'd bet not. Bully the peaceful Christians all you like, they are, as so many comments prove, and "out group". Muslims, or as you euphamistically call them, immigrants, are out of bounds, regardless the atavistic nature of their social beliefs.

Homosexuality is a capital crime- punishable by death- as has happened so often in Iran. Women are, somewhat more than beasts of burden, but certainly less than men, and children are posessions of the father.

But, don't say so, or you are a racist and bigot. The Christ lovers, however, are guilty of every crime against humanity, curently and historically.

Personally, I'll take the West. Bach, Rembrandt, Shakespeare and all the other dead, white and Christian creators of the life worth living.
20:55 May 6, 2011 by technoviking
@ 3rdjerseyman

Umm... You haven't been here long have you? Muslims are far from "out of bounds".

Go back and read the threads about Islam on here. It makes this look like a quilting club.

No one here is comparing modern Islam, the fascist violent political ideology with modern Christianity in terms of the chaos and death it creates in the world.

We're going after you for persecuting peaceful gay people who ALSO simply want to live their lives as they see fit without being called sinners and worse...
05:46 May 7, 2011 by HorstRadisch
Ah yes, Leviticus, in addition to one or other passages of c&€% in the Old Testament, that source of great wisdom. However, in addition to homosexuality, it does pose one or two questions to me personally that the homophobes tend to ignore. For example:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing

odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They

claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus

21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is

in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is,

how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and

female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations.

A friend of mine claims that this applies to Finns and Norwegians, but not

Danes. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Danes?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2

clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill

him myself? I'm REALLY uncomfortable with this.

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an

abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I

don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a

defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my

vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair

around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden

by Lev.19:27. How should they die? And what on earth do we do with those who shave their pubic hair???

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me

unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two

different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments

made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).

He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that

we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone

them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private

family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?

(Lev. 20:14)

Isn't it funny, in this day and age, that some people (even educated ones) take some passages from a 2,000 year old book as gospel (pun intended) whilst other passages, perhaps on the same page, are obviously there only to be ignored?
09:26 May 7, 2011 by peno
@technoviking

I am not surprised what you are writing here. Infact, I am surprised you can be shallow to the extent that I really feel pity for you.

The fact that they were in the bible does not mean that it is a practise in christianity up until this present day. And if you think this book (The Bible) is more than 2000 years old and should be disregarded, then you can as well argue that the laws establishing a mornarchical state in Sweden should be abolished because it is as old as your fore-fathers. That is how shallow you reason anytime you come to this forum to write anything.

Let me educate you - christianity is a walk. A love relationship with God. You will not desire to even go and fornicate with another lady because you have a girlfriend. This is all that God desires from us. God has not taken anything away from you. As a matter of fact, this was the OT tradition where they had no mediator. But now, we do have a mediator in Jesus Christ who came to die for us and so there is no need for anyone to sell his daughter, to burn anything, to do all those things you are talking about because that was the essence why Jesus Christ came to die on the cross so that an anti-Jesus person like you can still obtain the mercies and favour of God.

That does not mean that God desires that we should live our lives anyhow. For him to create a man and a woman was for a PURPOSE. Otherwise, you will not be alive to come to this forum to write this rubbish. You should be grateful to God for creating a man and a woman. Evolution couldn't have been so clever to distinguish who should be a man and who should be a woman. I hope you are reasoning with me now.

Get a life and live for God!

Remember this Proverbs 14:34 (New King James Version)

34 Righteousness exalts a nation,

But sin is a reproach to any people.
10:41 May 7, 2011 by Rick Methven
@peno "That does not mean that God desires that we should live our lives anyhow. For him to create a man and a woman was for a PURPOSE"

That is only applicable to creationists such as you. who have an invisible friend

The more intelligent of us know that it was not God but evolution that made us what we are. and we know that homosexuality naturally occurs in all species of mammals. and has done so throughout the millennia. The MEN who wrote the books contained in the bible, knew that homosexuality existed when they wrote their fairy tales. If your God is so fantastic and did create Adam and Eve for a purpose, why did he allow homosexuals?
11:01 May 7, 2011 by technoviking
@ peno

Absolutely everything you have said rests entirely upon the assumption that the bible is special.

Which rests entirely on the circular argument that "The book is special because the book says it is special".

Which is the absolute EPITOMY of shallowness.

There is nothing rational, logical, or useful in anything you've said.

You are arguing for blind faith in the bible. How original.

Learn what critical thought is before you try to pass your emotional rants off as arguments.

PS - I completely agree with you on abolishing the monarchy. Interesting that you felt the need to fabricate some sort of fiction that I believe otherwise.
11:56 May 7, 2011 by peno
@technoviking @Rick Methven,

I started my talk by sharing an abridged version of my own personal journeyv- retracing my path from an at-risk childhood to my role in some of the challenging medical cases I've been previleged to work on. I made sure I pay tribute to Mr. Jaeck and other public school science teachers whose instruction, encouragement, and personal conern inspired my own interest in science. I lamented the fact that the liability fears had banned the lab animals and robbed the students now attending my old school of the chance to be inspired the way I had been. I also expressed concern over the recent surveys showing that students in the United States scored twenty-firsrt out of the twenty-two most educated countries in the world when it came to science and math.

I talked about the incredible capacity of the human mind and the tragedy that so many fail to harness the brain's awesome potential. I touched on some of the factors that contribute to that failure to utilize this most amazing God-given resource, including the peer pressure associated with political correctness, which often limits our willingness, even as objective scientists, to have a thoughtful, rational discussion about evolution versus creationism.

So that's what I set out to do, starting at the macro level by talking about how much astronomy has learned about the mind-boggling vastness and impeccable order of our universe. Today we can predict the exact course and arrival of a comet seventy-five years in the future. Just think about the amazing precision that requires!

Naturally we ask how this came about. Some scientists believe it all just happened as the result of a big bang that launched everything, setting our earth spinning on its axis, at just the right speed, at precisely the right distance from the sun so it wouldn't be incinerated, yet close enough not to freeze, with other planets and other galaxies positioned perfectly to keep harmful rays from destroying our planet and us, I told my audience, "I just don't have enough faith to believe all that happened by random chance."

It continues....
12:31 May 7, 2011 by DamnImmigrant
To paraphrase Xenophanes, 'If HORSES had gods, they would look and act like HORSES. If COWS had gods, they would look and act like COWS'

Not surprising that "the god" these fundamentalist christians worship is as shallow and incompetent as the people who worship him. They are a RELIGIOUS people who have no concept of what it is to live a SPIRITUAL EXISTENCE. Their lives are governed by the FEAR of their god while at the same time claiming to LOVE that god. In fact they have perverted the whole of christianity because they "FEAR their god and they FEAR their neighbor as they FEAR themselves". The neighbor might be a HOMO-sapien and personally, they themselves know they already have one foot into the doorway of HELL. They cannot see that their very actions are ANTI-CHRISTian as Jesus's commandment was to LOVE god, LOVE neighbor and LOVE yourself; not FEAR. Then their cognitive dissonance kicks in and they rationalize that they LOVE the SINNER but HATE the SIN; so they DO NOT need to tolerate those sinful ways! These religious peoples' god and their interaction with him are clearly laid out in their BOOK (bible). Sin is an affront to their god which causes "HIS" condemnation not only of the individual but to an entire groups of people. They actually have some sort of perverted pride when disaster strikes because they know that it is THEIR GODS WILL directed against the unrighteous.

These people claim that Sweden is ungodly because is not a RELIGIOUS country. They cannot possibly understand the concept that Sweden is a SPIRITUAL CULTURE (country); that being a "morally driven" SPIRITUAL COUNTRY is FAR SUPERIOR than to being a "book driven" religious country. These religious people claim that Swedes do not believe in god, but they are incapable of understanding the truth about the Swedes relationship to their spiritually derived god. Swedes would never attempt to define "GOD" nor even claim to know "its" will. Contrary to these religious peoples belief that Swedes do not believe in god, MOST Swedes have a concept that they hold as to what god is. The most important thing about that relationship is that they LOVE THEIR GOD! When I realized that Swedish culture LOVED their neighbor and that they LOVED themselves, I was sold and moved my family from the FEAR based American culture, that CLAIMS to be christian, to the LOVE based Swedish culture which actually lives a christian lifestyle, WITHOUT the need to CLAIM it is christian.

One of the governing principles here in Sweden is directly in line with something Jesus was reported to have said "How you treat the lessor amongst us is how you treat me". The Swedish culture's concept of sin is a morally based concept. Swedes believe it is IMMORAL (a SIN), to have a child, or anyone else, in pain because they cannot afford healthcare. It is IMMORAL (a SIN), for a child, or anyone else, to go hungry, to be denied housing (family live in their car is not housing) because they have too little money. It is IMMORAL to allow schools to teach that some people are LESS than other people. It is immoral to deny help to other. It is immoral to deny all citizens equality under the law!

Whereas a spiritual culture sees these IMMORAL behaviors as sins (which ARE an affront to god's image) these behaviors are perfectly acceptable to a religious culture (such as I experienced in America). These religious people deny the science that shows homosexuality is NOT a choice. If their god is wrong about the Homo's their whole world will fall apart!

It is interesting that a Swedish school's violation of Swedish law brings out all these religiously christian people who have no idea what it is to actually live in the way of "The Christ".
12:32 May 7, 2011 by peno
I've never understood how the same scientists who propose the Big Bang theory also accept the second law of thermodynamics (entropy), which asserts that things naturally tend to move toward a state of disorganization, not organization. Yet much of the Big Bang theory rests on the belief that after all this stuff around us (matter) just happened to come out of nowhere in a giant explosion, instead of spreading and growing more disorganized, somehow it assembled and organized itself into an awe-inspiring pattern of planets and orbits and solar systems and stars and galaxies that reach to infinity and move in a celestial choreography that is at once beautifully mysterious and mathematically predictable. How does that jibe with the second law of thermodynamics? I've talked to Nobel Prize-winning physicists who spout hypotheses that amount to nothing more than a bunch of astro-physical mumbo-jumbo before eventually admitting, "well, we're still learning. There's a lot we don't understand." I've yet to find anybody sure enough to give a convincing explanation.

I suggested to the science teachers that many people accept the Big Bang on faith, despite evidence for or against it. But tell me, I asked, where did the very first living cell come from?

Believing that the origin of life can be explained by Darwinian evolution requires more faith than I have. I told the science teachers, "Evolution and creationism both require faith. It's just a matter of where you choose to place that faith." From what I know (and all we don't know) about biology, I find it hard to accept the claims of evolution as it is to think that a hurricane blowing through a junkyard could somehow assemble a fully equipped and flight ready 747.

So what are we to make of the human body and the human brain, which are immeasurably more complex, more versatile, more amazing in a gazillion ways than any airplane man has ever created? Aren't they even stronger evidence of intelligent design? That, I told these science teachers, is why evolution requires more faith than I can muster.
12:59 May 7, 2011 by technoviking
@ peno

I have never said that there is no possibility of there being a higher being or designer. I'm open to the idea that there is.

But even if there was one, on what authority do you have it that the bible is "his" book of choice?

You don't have any.

It has no more verifiable authority than the the Baghvad Gita, the koran or Harry Potter for that matter... Which is none.

Therefore you have no right to use it as an excuse to persecute gays just because of your choice to have blind faith in it.
16:10 May 7, 2011 by MarshaLynn
To D.Immigrant,

It isn't enough to state that you think someone is ignorant and wrong. You must give details as to why a person is wrong. Otherwise, you are merely the insufferable bigot that you claim others to be. I stated that serious secular Bible scholars do not believe that the New Testament was written long after the first century, because evidence does not support that. Nor do they claim that Jesus and the Apostles did not exist. The date of the writing of the New Testament and the existence of Jesus and the Apostles are facts of history, not statements of theological belief. And that is all that I addressed in that one post. Your reply to my comments is filled with nothing but bigotry and hatred of Christianity and offers nothing to an objective discussion of fact. You must first make sure you are not a hate-filled bigot against another group before you can be taken seriously. As to my remarks regarding homosexuality in another post: again, I addressed scientific fact regarding the results of medical and university studies of male homosexual practice and how those males are affected by that practice, and then asked the question as to whether or not society should be in the business of not only condoning, but actually honoring, a practice that is so medically dangerous to the well-being of its practitioners. Can you address that issue dispassionately and factually, or will you again lunge into a hate-filled tirade?
00:02 May 8, 2011 by jamesblish
"Yet much of the Big Bang theory rests on the belief that after all this stuff around us (matter) just happened to come out of nowhere in a giant explosion"

- No they don't, that's not what the Big Bang is about. The fact that we don' yet know exactly how things happened, doesn't mean it all "came from nothing". Stop spewing out Fox News talking points.

"I've talked to Nobel Prize-winning physicists who spout hypotheses that amount to nothing more than a bunch of astro-physical mumbo-jumbo before eventually admitting, "well, we're still learning. There's a lot we don't understand." I've yet to find anybody sure enough to give a convincing explanation."

- Just our of curiosity, which ones? Yeah, we're still learning, that's the point of science. You seem to want a finished answer to a question that might be the biggest one ever posed. How can we possibly give you that? If you want answers on things you don't know, turn to religion instead. The fact that there is no perfect explanation doesn't mean we're on the wrong track, it means that we're only beginning. Again, what's your point? What is the culmination of what you're saying? Do you have the answer, is the Big Bang a load of bull? If so, what IS the answer? Please enlighten us, I genuinely want to know.

"Believing that the origin of life can be explained by Darwinian evolution requires more faith than I have."

- No it doesn't.

"I find it hard to accept the claims of evolution as it is to think that a hurricane blowing through a junkyard could somehow assemble a fully equipped and flight ready 747."

- The fact that you find something hard doesn't make it wrong. You not only misrepresent what the evolution is about, you also just made a fool of yourself. Anyone with any insight whatsoever into Darwinian science knows that the 747 argument is bulls**t. Sorry.

"So what are we to make of the human body and the human brain, which are immeasurably more complex, more versatile, more amazing in a gazillion ways than any airplane man has ever created?"

- I don't know, but let's look at the actual evidence and see what we can come up with in our lifetime, shall we?
00:20 May 8, 2011 by DamnImmigrant
MarshaLynn, I am sorry you perceive my words as hate-filled because as a self-Transcendent personality, "hate-filled" is not something WE are known for. I make it my business to try to avoid such expressions. When we, self-Transcendents, speak we are often misperceived because people cannot understand where we are coming from. The listeners own prejudices tend to cloud our words. To disagree with "your" view of "christianity" means that I am "filled with nothing but bigotry and hatred of Christianity"? MarshaLynn, this comment shows real ignorance as to WHO and WHAT I am. IMHO, it does say a lot about you. I suppose if you viewed my post (around) number 69 as hate-filled, then anything I say would be perceived as such. My "profile" should say everything you need to know about me.

@MarshaLynn - "...proper way to approach the homosexual issue...health angle...acceptable even to school age children...SCIENTIFIC FACT) it is a serious health problem to..."

Yes your "FACTS" show you to be very ignorant and clueless regarding homosexuals. You OBVIOUSLY have never closely interacted with any homosexuals. The papers you presented as "scientific" proof were not even close to what you are expressing. Your discussion of homosexuality is very one sided and very alarmist - "school age children", "serious health problem". Very ignorant words and I might add fearful and hateful words. (Does your god know you talk like this?)

I have FIXED your original statement to read "Male HETEROSEXUALS in general have multiple sex partners (sometimes numbering in the 100s) in a lifetime, even within the framework of committed relationships." Very true statement YES? Are you now campaigning against heterosexuals because of disease? OH RIGHT, but you used the word HOMOSEXUAL and not HETEROSEXUAL. Your ignorance is in not understanding HUMAN SEXUALITY and human relationships! "medically dangerous to the well-being of its practitioners"?? Come on MarshaLynn, I'm the bigot with hate problem?

You want me to tell you why you seem to be equally clueless regarding Christianities origin (in 25 words or less) - maybe if the "topic" presents itself you will learn the long convoluted history of Christianity that spanned its first 3 centuries.

This thread is about a Swedish school violating Swedish law. As I pointed out in (around) post 69, I doubt religious people can understand a spiritual society nor why it is immoral for any school to debase any segment of its population.
00:43 May 8, 2011 by MarshaLynn
D-Immigrant,

Your self-transcendant self sounds suspiciously bigoted against Christians. You will forgive me if I am ignorant as to who and what you are, having never met you. And no, I do not believe heterosexuals should be having multiple sex partners. If I did not say that in this post, then I did say it in another on here somewhere I believe. I believe human beings should practice monogamy, and thus help to ensure not only that disease does not run rampant but also that men and women and the families they produce have more emotional stability. The family unit has been under serious attack for quite some time. I do not have to interact with homosexuals to understand scientific studies regarding their practices. And the study to which I linked does indeed state that male homosexuals generally do not require monogamy of one another. Even the New York Times, a totally liberal homosexual-friendly newspaper, stated that is the proper interpretation of the study. Several other papers stated the same thing. I do know the history of Christianity. I have read a great deal in the past 62 years. I'm sure you have been able to find writers who have come up with alternate histories of Christianity. They are popular these days, because hatred of Christianity is popular with liberals and progressives.

A school should not endorse homosexuality, because the homosexual lifestyle has been shown to be prey to diseases, serious physical maladies, and a shorter lifespan. Nor should a school endorse heterosexuals having multiple sex partners. A school should endorse traditional marriage and family, because that is the condition that promotes the greatest stability for human beings. That is, if they behave properly toward one another, so don't launch into a tirade about abuse in families. We assume that traditional marriage promotes stability when abuse and other harmful effects are not present. I am glad to not live in Sweden, where the law interferes with the normal practice of one's faith. In this particular case, the law is woefully ignorant and misinformed if it condones and promotes homosexuality, for the reasons I have already stated. And the faith is correct to condemn a lifestyle that is so unhealthy for human beings. It also condemns heterosexual promiscuity as well.
19:03 May 8, 2011 by jamesblish
"I believe human beings should practice monogamy, and thus help to ensure not only that disease does not run rampant but also that men and women and the families they produce have more emotional stability. "

- The argument about emotional stability is flawed because it is predicated upon the belief that having a family is the "right" thing. Let's look at why people become emotionally unstable - it is because they feel they're not good enough or that they're doing something wrong according to the social consensus. That's why 40-year old people feel like losers for not having a family, it's because "everyone else" does and they feel as though they're not good enough.

"The family unit has been under serious attack for quite some time. "

- No it hasn't, not here nor anywhere else. The fact that a huge chunk of the population are gay and want their basic rights as citizens doesn't mean that your way of life is "under attack".

"Even the New York Times, a totally liberal homosexual-friendly newspaper, "

- It's funny to see you refer to a newspaper as "homosexual-friendly". Newspapers don't work in terms of being for or against entire groups of people. It's amazing that you don't realize just how retarded this statement is.

"They are popular these days, because hatred of Christianity is popular with liberals and progressives."

- No it's not, they don't hate an entire religion but some might feel a bit uneasy at how religion is being forced down people's throats. How religion has taken place in the science classroom in the shape of the so called creationism science. How a country that explicitly separated church and state in some ways has been hijacked by religious loons. You're the ones who've been attacking us.

"A school should not endorse homosexuality, because [of various health issues]"

- Schools do not work that way. Schools endorse every child, regardless of their sexual orientation. Whether or not gays are subject to more STD:s etc is one thing but it is not a choice, so how could a school possibly condemn and disown about 20% of its pupils?

"Nor should a school endorse heterosexuals having multiple sex partners. "

- You are not living in reality, it seems. Schools deal with reality and the children of today. Having that mindset simply would not work amongst children of today.

"I am glad to not live in Sweden, where the law interferes with the normal practice of one's faith."

- Explain how Swedish law does this.

"And the faith is correct to condemn a lifestyle that is so unhealthy for human beings."

- You know as well as I do that's not the reason church condemns homosexuality. If it cares so much about the health of homosexuals, why does it want to condemn them and perhaps drive them towards suicide? How can a church condemn a persono who was born a certain way?
19:26 May 8, 2011 by peno
@technoviking

If you think that is acceptable, then I will suggest you go and lie in faeces. What normal being in his right senses will prefer to put his private part in where sh*t comes from.

In any case, for all of you that think it is acceptable, this is what I have to say; keep on encouraging your people to marry - male to male and female to female. For us that knows what is right (regardless of what the bible says even if you don't want to believe in it), we will marry (male to female) and we will produce and don't ever complain that immigrants are taking over your land. Because we are God-minded people.
20:25 May 8, 2011 by jamesblish
"What normal person would put his private part in where pi** comes from?"

- Quite a few straight and gay people, I would imagine. Btw, doesn't pi** exit through the vagina?

"In any case, for all of you that think it is acceptable, this is what I have to say; keep on encouraging your people to marry - male to male and female to female."

- We will, if that's what they want.

"For us that knows what is right (regardless of what the bible says even if you don't want to believe in it)"

- You know what YOU THINK is right.

"we will marry (male to female) and we will produce"

- Good, everyone should do what they feel is best for themselves. I'm glad you share that view. I see you're running out of "arguments" now btw. Backpedaling to a "yeah, well that's what I believe" standpoint. Very common amongst religious people once they've been out-argued and can't muster up a serious reply. No one is telling you how to live though, and no one is forcing you to be gay or straight. So I think it's only fair to demand the same thing from you. Mind your own life and business and stay out of other people's bedrooms.
20:55 May 8, 2011 by peno
@jamesblish

Good, everyone should do what they feel is best for themselves. I'm glad you share that view. I see you're running out of "arguments" now btw. Backpedaling to a "yeah, well that's what I believe" standpoint. Very common amongst religious people once they've been out-argued and can't muster up a serious reply. No one is telling you how to live though, and no one is forcing you to be gay or straight. So I think it's only fair to demand the same thing from you. Mind your own life and business and stay out of other people's bedrooms

- Good for you too because you guys also think you are right all the time. We are not being out argued as you think or believe. We just don't have time for arrant rubbish.

Once again, we are producing and we are populating...like the bible says, the wealth of the wicked is being laid up for the righteous. Our coming generation shall come and enjoy the fruits of our labour because we dared to lay a solid foundation.

I pity your sorry philosophy which is leading you no where. Think about it...
00:17 May 9, 2011 by jamesblish
Well, you had enough time to write plenty on this board, did you not?

I don't think you know my philosophy, in fact I'm not even sure I have one. Who does? I fail to see how it's leaading me nowhere though. So far it's led me thru life feeling pretty good. Doing pretty good too. I'm a righteous man in every meaning of the word that I know of. Whether that is good enough for you, I don't really care.
21:07 May 12, 2011 by peno
@jamesblish

Are you gay?
22:57 May 12, 2011 by jamesblish
Nope, straight as a nail.
22:54 January 4, 2012 by janeway
Lee451: Why don't you go and teach your mythology somewhere else? I guess you haven't read any scientifically based reports the last 30 years because you only believe what's in that fairytale book of yours? Philister61 has a good point, you do not.

Calebian22: Also goes well with steak.!

Stenhuggaren: Correct!

swedejane: You are also correct and unfortunately they do receive taxmoney.

Technoviking: Good, really good!

jamesblish: You draw the correct conclusion.

Da Goat: You're missing the point completely. Bestiality = defenseless victims. Paedophilia = Defenseless victims. Incest = defenseless victims. Homosexuality = Consenting adults. Now go connect the dots!

lungfish: You are right on the spot!

Keith#5083: A correct analysis.

Rick Methven: You made my day!

DamnImmigrant: Right to the point!

MarshaLynn: A lifestyle is being interested in health, fishing, gardening, sports. Being gay is being born that way. Got it! Stop diminishing people by calling them chosers of a lifestyle!

3rdjerseyman: The authoroties have slammed down on several muslim run schools. It has been all over the media, but I guess you've missed that. A school run by an MP for the Moderaterna have been heavily critizised for it's treatment of female students and their teachings. Another school run by muslims have been shut down because they didn't stick to the rules. By accepting public money, you are accepting the rules. Period.

jamesblish, DamnImmigrant, technoviking, Rich Methven, Keith#5083, swedejane, stenhuggaren: You have said it all and I applaude you! Keep up the good work!
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