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Swedish mosque starts 'halal' dating site

Swedish mosque starts 'halal' dating site

Published: 16 Dec 2011 10:45 GMT+01:00
Updated: 16 Dec 2011 10:45 GMT+01:00

”The mosque is not just a place for prayer, it is also a social place and the mosque is here for dealing with problems in society. One of these is that it is hard to find a partner,” Abu Mahmoud, the man behind the dating site, told Sveriges Radio (SR).

The service isn't new per se, as young Muslim Stockholmers in need of a partner could previously browse a folder, located in the entrance to the mosque on Södermalm, in the south of the city.

”We've already been doing this, but not digitally. We did it in paper form at the entrance, so the idea isn't completely new,” said Andallah Salah, deputy head of the Islamic Association in Stockholm to SR.

However, the folder has been taken away, as it was impossible to make sure that those who read the contact details were serious in their endeavours to find a partner.

But Salah told SR that the interest in getting help finding a suitable partner is still significant.

The new dating service in Gothenburg will not feature pictures or bios. Instead contacts will be made through a website managed by Abu Mahmoud and his wife.

While Muslims interested in the service can register on the site, their contact details won't be viewable by potential partners.

Instead, the matchmaking will be handled by Mahmoud and his wife.

”My wife will serve as a contact for the sisters, so women can contact her and to see if there is a suitable match, and if there is, they just have to register,” said Mahmoud to SR.

So far, more than 20 people have registered, of which more than half are men.

After the initial contact has been made by Mahmoud and his wife, the idea is that the courting will be carried out in the appropriate fashion – the ”halal” way.

”We want to make the dating as Islamic as possible, that the man's family comes over to the woman's family for a date, that the parents are key to the dating process,” Mahmoud told SR.

Rebecca Martin (rebecca.martin@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

11:15 December 16, 2011 by Twiceshy
> "that the man's family comes over to the woman's family for a date, that the parents are key to the dating process,"

I'm glad that the culture I care about has long ago passed this phase...
11:31 December 16, 2011 by occassional
When you think you have heard it all.

Will the honour killing also be 'halal' then?
11:32 December 16, 2011 by rise
@ Twiceshy

Agree, the parents have no saying in this! The children are free human beings and neither some pets nor some other belongings.
11:41 December 16, 2011 by shahislam
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
11:54 December 16, 2011 by gabeltoon
What ever next. It's about time the CHRISTIAN world woke up.
12:52 December 16, 2011 by Great Scott
Why does The Local keep on and on about how hard or how tough it is for Muslims living in Sweden? I am sure these people are quite capable of working out their own problems.

Instead The Local should focus on the unemployed, what is the government planning to do about its high unemployment rate, what is the government doing about some of the highest energy prices in the world, what is the government doing about real care for the elderly, what is the government doing about immigration? Yes, in a way gabeltoon you are right, wake up Sweden and wake up The Local.
13:08 December 16, 2011 by spo10
The old meets the new.
13:25 December 16, 2011 by rouzi
It is not a site for dating , it is a site for finding a husband or a wife and marrying.

Dose anybody have any idea about this statement?: The man's family comes over to the woman's family for a date, that the parents are key to the dating process.

Is it really Islamic or it is just a custom?
13:54 December 16, 2011 by RobinHood
I agree with Great Scott. The Local totally failed to make clear the obvious connection between a dating site for young Islamic people, unemployment levels geriatric care, and energy prices. Wake up the The Local.
14:21 December 16, 2011 by Atlas
Since when did dating became harram (that's opposite of hallal) that it requires the services of a cleric and his wife?

Also, in some cultures, the matchmaker gets gifts from relatives of the prospective groom and bride, anyone think this is more for personal gain?
14:25 December 16, 2011 by jvtx3232
I just thought of a great idea. I know where young Muslims can go to look for a girlfriend or boyfriend: back in the Middle East, Africa, etc. You know, their countries of origin. Why don't they try going there. I mean physically moving there, not cyberspace dating.
14:28 December 16, 2011 by thinkright24
what stupidity. there is difference between 'dating' and 'meeting' or having a conversation.

The Local needs to translate better and with some responsibility.
14:51 December 16, 2011 by Belovedcity
Yes I agree,, this article seems to be boring and valueless...but who want to know about uneployment levels and geriatric care an so on must knows swedish cause all this issues are always discussed in the other swedish newspaper .
14:53 December 16, 2011 by Atlas
I guess the imam want to be like his counterpart at East is East movie...
15:12 December 16, 2011 by Robert69
Sweden is a mutli-cultural society (it's in the constitution) and how different people date with help of parents or whatever is a human right.
15:23 December 16, 2011 by Vill
I wonder if their version of matchmaking is determining how many goats will be exchanged between families.
15:29 December 16, 2011 by Great Scott
@Robert69

The issue here has nothing to do with human rights, your statement is irrelevant. The real issue is no one cares about what The Local has reported regarding "halal" dating. As you can see by the comments, people are just sick and tired of hearing how hard it is for a certain group of people.

But let me tell you it is a human right to read about the real issues and worries concerning Sweden.
16:05 December 16, 2011 by Khader
This is ridiculous !!! what halal !!!

and why you call it Swedish mosque !!!!

I can imagine what is going on, this will lead to a real cultural changes and total destruction of what original Swedish roots have...!!

Jag tror att någon ska vakna upp !!!
16:12 December 16, 2011 by Roy E
Sweden has made a huge mistake in permitting such an incompatible and contrary culture onto its shores.

It's a classic case of being so open minded that your brains have fallen out.
16:24 December 16, 2011 by acidcritic
I believe the only thing the muslims in Sweden wont is to capture swedish girls. Therefore, to build a moske for the muslims is a truly stupid thing
17:17 December 16, 2011 by tadchem
Is it 'halal' or ha-LOL?
17:33 December 16, 2011 by ulster1690
I moved from the UK to Sweden in June of this year and was suprised at the amount of Islamic immigrants, personally I think this is gonna present problems for Sweden in the future. The minority arrive here with no money or education and expect to live of the state.
17:34 December 16, 2011 by Robert69
@Great Scott

Yes, but Sweden is a multi-cultural society. Your opinions do not matter since minority groups set the agenda. That's what multui-culturalism is about. :)
18:38 December 16, 2011 by bramblebush
Is there a minimum age for the girls to participate? Afterall, the norm in Islamland is to marry 12 years old girls to 35 year old males.....
18:43 December 16, 2011 by Belovedcity
@acidcritic :((I believe the only thing the muslims in Sweden wont is to capture swedish girls))

Your background from middle east.. isn t :) I really do not know to whom you are talking by saying such statement ,In sweden , Swedish girls do not care of what you are saying . swedish girl is free she can go with Muslim or nonmuslim . You think that when a swedish man read what you wrote he will answer you that it should be protect girls from muslim..

Wake up man ,This thinking seemed to be like those of the honor killing !
18:48 December 16, 2011 by shard
@Great Scott

"The real issue is no one cares about what The Local has reported regarding "halal" dating."

as a matter of fact, *at least* one person is interested in reading about this, as unlike bigoted and xenophobic individuals like you, I'm curious about other people's trials and tribulations. So I suppose that completely negates your ignorant comment in a single stroke.

And remember mate, muslim, jew, christian, whatever - they're all fairytales anyway.

Or are you going to tell me your imaginary friend in the sky is better than their imaginary friend in the sky?
19:57 December 16, 2011 by bcterry
Is there no room, or no such thing as simply falling in love in islam.

I never hear muslims talk of love.

Any muslim out there care to comment?
20:15 December 16, 2011 by bow290
what a joke! wait till u start seeing ur Swedish girls turning into towel heads, happens back in Australia...
20:15 December 16, 2011 by Dave N
"Or are you going to tell me your imaginary friend in the sky is better than their imaginary friend in the sky?"

If Great Scott's imaginary friend in the sky does not tell him to kill unbelievers and kill anyone who leaves Great Scott's religion - then his imaginary friend is definitely better than Allah.
20:30 December 16, 2011 by bcterry
"If Great Scott's imaginary friend in the sky does not tell him to kill unbelievers and kill anyone who leaves Great Scott's religion - then his imaginary friend is definitely better than Allah."

Can any muslim explain to us why the majority of you feel it is necessary that apostates should murdered?

What is the reasoning for such a violent reaction?
21:36 December 16, 2011 by Vill
@ bow290

I strongly disagree with your statement. The material is more similar to a sheet than a towel so I believe the proper term is "sheet heads". :D
21:44 December 16, 2011 by Great Scott
@shard

So it's name calling now is it, what's caused that. Let me guess, it's your incompetence to understand what I am saying. Now let me tell you, are you sitting comfortable, then I will begin. There was an online newspaper called The Local, it wrote a story about halal dating. To my surprise I thought that other far more important issues should be bought to its reader's attention. Such as unemployment, the elderly and high energy prices, in these hard times I feel the media should use their influence to bring it to the government attention. Now seeing that the huge majority of people living in Sweden are Swedes, I am sure that they would also like to see the media working for them.

It's a shame your arrogance has failed to see the point, or is it something closer to your heart that makes you feel this way.

@Robert69

Why on earth do you keep ranting on about a multi-cultural society, at no point has this been mentioned in the report or anybody else but you. As for the rest of your comment I bang my head against the wall.

P.S. For god's sake I don't have a religion.
21:50 December 16, 2011 by Chickybee
Swedish girls are 'fun' to gain sexual experience with but not good enough to get married to and any Muslim girl worth her salt will, of course, unlike her husband be a wholesome virgin.

I have heard this from the mouths of Sweden's Muslim youth - it makes me laugh and feel sad at the same time.

Multiculturalism has not only created parallel societies but as Islam dictates - it will only accept what is Muslim and nothing less.

How can politicians be so deliberately blind?
22:09 December 16, 2011 by Rishonim
Some of you people don't really miss an opportunity to spill your vermin at the mention of the word Muslim. There is nothing wrong with the Mosque taking the initiative to create a site where young Muslim can find a mate. Live and let live for G-d sake. We Jews have been doing the same thing for quite sometime now and I am happy to see my half brothers following suit. JDate is just an example of such site. I think you guys should really sit and take inventory of all the hatred you spill and only then you will realize how horribly ugly you really are. "Knowledge is the conformity of the object and the intellect" Averroes.
00:00 December 17, 2011 by wxman
If I had told my Swedish grandfather, who emmigrated to the US when he was 18 years old in 1919, that this were occurring he would have told me I was full of sh*t. I'm sure he's turnimg over in his 22 year old grave.
00:10 December 17, 2011 by shard
@Scott

Whilst your level of English is very good, you're perhaps not a native speaker; it's not my "incompetence" to understand you are questioning, it's my 'ability'. But my ability is just fine, thanks.

You state "The real issue is no one cares about what The Local has reported regarding "halal" dating.". By finding at least one person who does care, your 'argument' is negated. Simple, see?

Whilst I'm trying to teach you something, there's a little box top right of the page. It's called a search field and, helpfully, the local even has the word 'Search' left in there for your benefit. Pop in your search query about unemployment, pensioners, energy, whatever, and fill yer boots, as they say.

But I'll let you into a little secret. The Local isn't a hard-hitting periodical, nor a hotbed of investigative journalism. If you wanted such news on more regular basis, but can't handle the actual Swedish, go here (http://translate.google.com), pop the url of the site that caters to you whims the most, and in the blink of an eye, you'll have a pretty decent translation. Well, sometimes you have to bend your mind a little, but better than nowt at least.

If you seriously think that those who occupy their cushy positions in power are going to be moved by anything The Local reports, then you are more naive than I imagined.

The sooner you lower your expectations and see The Local for what it is, the sooner you can let go of some of this anger. Though, before it does dissipate, you might like to vent your spleen to the editor over how "This weekend's 'finest'" is not the round up of temporary art exhibitions one might have otherwise assumed from such a high calibre journal such as this.
00:11 December 17, 2011 by Value
@gabeltoon Well said, indeed, I completely agree.
00:13 December 17, 2011 by shard
@wxman,

bloody scum- of-the-earth immigrants, the world is full of them, eh? Even worse, they usually end up breeding, then look what happens.
02:25 December 17, 2011 by acidcritic
Mosques are not sites of dating. They are the sites where the muslims pathers sell their young dotters to old but rich men.
03:50 December 17, 2011 by Belovedcity
. I really do not understant why this hatred against Muslim ? I still wonder why whenever an Article shows something about Islam they try to argue it vaguely?! The matter of fact is that the extremist fascist ideas does not extinct yet in europ . A wise man is the one who learns from the history what this ideas did to the europ community durring 1 and 2 war , The exitrimists are the enemies of any civilisation Coming back to the muslim community , I think all mohammed s countries are facing now tanks of the dictatorship and teach nations for the first time in the human history how to fight it peacefully and bravely in the aim of Freedom and justice.

The real civilisation is the one which can be able to teach its people how to respectand live with the minoritiesin a great harmony or it will not worth to be if it lets such those fascist ideas spread between its people

The people who has this fascist ideas must be educated , if not , they surely destory what has been built durring last 100 years
06:23 December 17, 2011 by Khaliil
To all who complained: 1) Moses was also given the command to kill the apostate (go read your Bible).

2) Should the Muslims not assist their children in finding someone suitable to marry simply because you don't do it for your children?

3) In Islam, neither the male nor female should have sex before marriage, (one of the Ten Commandments) if they do, it's a sin on them, if your daughters are promiscuous, it is not the fault of Muslim men.

4) If your women choose to become "towel-heads" like "happens back in Australia" they are free to do so: Or do you wish to start the very un-Islamic practice of "honor killings"?

5) If you are worried about your children becoming Muslim, offer them something better & stop whining because Islam beat you to it.

6) Stop whining about Muslims having so many children, stop killing your unborn babies.

7) If Muslim women want to dress like Mary - mother of Jesus, let them; why are other women dressing like harlots? (high heels, short/revealing clothing, excess make up & perfume...).

8)Stop telling Muslims to "go home", some are native Swedes who became Muslim.

No one forced you to read this article & it's your job to do something about Swedish problems & government, not a newspaper.
08:32 December 17, 2011 by Grokh
This website sounds more like a typical racist website that only wants muslims to marry muslims.

Isnt a religion that promotes only interfaith marriage racist?

I doubt this website is aimed at anyone else other than muslims discrimination at its finest.
12:39 December 17, 2011 by PoJo
Well, this issue is not as easy and unimportant as some of you think it is. It is true that different groups of people are allowed to freely practice their religion here in Sweden and I am all about that. Let everyone believe in whatever they want! But I think that starting to bring these unnecessary practices is totally stupid. Who would be interested in this type of dating, which by the way, I don't think has anything to do with islam anyway.

I wonder what's coming next...
14:46 December 17, 2011 by qamarneoo
Well after reading the comments i realize, most of them share their point of view against the muslim and islam what the today electronic media projected.

Guys read the Islamic Literature and then say Something.

I am totally supporting the Halal dating site. This electronic portal will give strength to Islamic values.
15:31 December 17, 2011 by jvtx3232
Who cares about "strengthening Islamic values" in Sweden? Sweden is SWEDISH and not Islamic?

If they want to strengthen Islamic values, go strengthen them in actual Islamic countries and leave Sweden to the Swedish.
15:45 December 17, 2011 by Freelife
"We want to make the dating as Islamic as possible, that the man's family comes over to the woman's family for a date, that the parents are key to the dating process,"

If someone beats a mischievous and ignorant small kid, he/she faces punishment. However, the above is entirely OK in the Swedish society.

What an irony!!
17:11 December 17, 2011 by mafketis
"This electronic portal will give strength to Islamic values. "

That's the whole problem. Islamic values universally lead to low levels of social trust and low levels of education (besides the useless skill of memorizing a book in a language that no one speaks) and perpetual poverty (unless buoyed by oil and/or a non-muslim group to carry the society economically). They also lead to corruption and political tyranny.

Why do you want to strengthen such values?
20:33 December 17, 2011 by shahislam
PM: Mr. Steven Harper is absolutely right but realizing his hopeful thoughts will be only difficult because of Canadian energy-field's actual owners and the 'economy manipulating, greedy, gas-station-business-controlling-groups' behind an elusive but fake Crocodile.

The Cosmic Creator arranged such a 'universal, non-decipherable solar injection based system' that shortage of fuel for energy will never really happen on this planet: Earth even in trillions of years. Alternatives will always be there and "Nature of the Creator" can handle countless volcanic type pollutions 'forever in human perception'.

Therefore, unlimited Canadian production, usage, export etc. are wise and 'emission' is not a issue when populace is relocated at sefer distance. Our Canadian societies need works; so, removing and relocating cities, for the sake of earning foreign money for Canadian Public, will be a lot of healthy works.

It, by unprecedented and to be implemented new local and global: 'UN municipal laws', will be considered a crime to privately claim ownerships of vast mineral-rich lands by neither "the descendants of dumb, lazy: 'Natives' " nor "the greedy, opportunity seeker: foreign occupiers with cleverness or guns".

The Natural resources underneath the Earth, Oceans, Mountains, Deserts etc. are actually property of Mankind and usable only for global public's benefits and unlike history, cannot belong anymore to greed-blind groups of shrewd guys with unscrupulous ideas and minds.
21:19 December 17, 2011 by icedearth
shut up everybody
03:06 December 18, 2011 by Gamla Hälsingebock
Swedish mosque??????????

Better an Islamic mosque in Sweden.

Even better...not there!

Does Saudi Arabian church sound right?
14:20 December 18, 2011 by alishaheen
@above

We even have churches in Pakistan.I call them rather Pakistani churches.
01:23 December 19, 2011 by Commoner
Can the Non Muslims also register & date the Muslim girls? I feel persian girls are very beautiful. Hope for it :)
01:43 December 19, 2011 by MikeSar
I think this a match made in Heaven!

All religions, no exceptions, changed over the centuries but some do not want to accept the notion of "change" and religion.

I think that, by default, Sweden has to take its turn at trying to change some, albeit minor changes, in the practice and, later, way later, the application of doctrine.

Remember, some of the brightest people in the world were the Muslim philosophers to which philosophers of all other, or no religion, owe a debt.

Yes, I know, some Muslims are unaware of their great past and others don't care, "they are dead, you know!" the old philosophers, scientist and artists of Medieval times. We shall all be awaiting with great interest to be informed of the mutual influences, changes and progress to find a "middle way" by Muslims, for Muslims in the Swedish incubator. We all pray with great hope success to all!
02:04 December 19, 2011 by bow290
@ Vill

thanks for the correction, ur so right about the "sheet"

with these people its a one way street, u gotta adopt to their ways. what would happen if we went over to one of their countries and tried something like this... we would cop the same abuse but ten fold! even in ur own country u have to change for them. when u go shopping look at how much stuff is "halal" approved, sweden is NOT a muslim sheet head country and should not have to be nice about it... muslims are like gay men hitting on straight men... it isn't cool , not cool at all!
08:24 December 19, 2011 by shahislam
Now choosing the next N. Korean leader by something like a lottery draw would be much better than letting another hereditary but just conditioned to act as head to rule North Korean public for decades like a life-less giant stone -blocking the natural flow of a productive river to become a stagnant, stinky body of water. Future's new UN power shall be able to make new global laws to ban hereditary leader-ships forever.

Clarification: Just feeding back and maintaining one truly deserved UK Royal (English as system of governance and as common language of "Future's New United Nations" is symbolically enough to maintain the sense of order among the unwise portion of the global public that cannot be impressed without visible giant structures and mental image. One Royal need not politicking or appoint business magnets: billionaires as advisers, instead, just enjoy provided luxury and the ensuing evolved world can afford easily one but not too many parasitical burdensome royals or family-business ruler-ships like in Nepal, Bhutan, Middle East etc. anymore.

A result of a grand mistake by Bushes and their advisers 4,500 innocent US and 1 million Iraqi "unwilling to die -Citizens" died, which is a crime but still forgiveable as too many fathers or mothers of nations' ambitions resulted also in the deaths of millions of innocent lives of the past scattered global public and any UN law against 'such crimes of mistakes' didn't exist.

Hopefully, Obama's humanitarian mission for USA and the rest of the World backed by non-violent-minded wise guys in the new UN's Think-Tank will continue until above necessary laws are made and globally implemented.

Shahislam
15:59 December 19, 2011 by bcterry
"Hopefully, Obama's humanitarian mission for USA and the rest of the World backed by non-violent-minded wise guys in the new UN's Think-Tank will continue until above necessary laws are made and globally implemented. "

Would one of those humanitarian laws to be globally implemented, backed by the non-violent wise guys in the U.N.'s think tank, be to eradicate all theocratic states in favor of sectarian equality, and the freedom to worship as you please without fear of state sponsored persecution?
03:12 December 20, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@shard I admire your intelligence and open mind

@Rishonim Nice comment, this world needs to hear moderate Jews/Muslims like us, instead of Al Qaeda and extreme Zionists

@Khalil Thanks for the clarification on Muslim views. I dislike the aggressive tone.

I'm Muslim, a woman, a New Yorker. I read newspapers from around the world and usually end with the The Local for lighter fare, such as butter shortages and how Swedes survive cold winters. It makes me smile.

This article is interesting. If some Swedes aren't well connected and want to meet people of similar backgrounds with similar values, I think that's great. May God bless Mahmoud for helping Muslims find nice people to settle down with.

I was raised in suburban USA. I love my faith, family and country. Because I grew up in a tolerant society, I'm equally comfortable talking to a Muslim imam or a gay acquaintance. As long as people respect my boundaries, I respect theirs. I'm totally okay with parents having a say in who I marry. Why? My parents have never failed my trust, never denied me education, free-expression, or kept me from pursuing my dreams. I share their values. For every Muslim family, (like every Jewish, atheist, or Christian family) circumstances are different. In my case, my parents have introduced me to guys and their families hoping for mutual interest - but never forced the issue. If they decide somebody is simply perfect for me (well if dad does, because mom thinks every guy is perfect for some reason), then I will probably end up with him. Where there is mutual affection and trust, opinions are welcome.

Do I pretend to know how oppressed or liberated Muslim women in Muslim countries are? No. My understanding comes from news sources that may or may not be biased. Would I ever consider moving to a country with oppressive laws like Saudi Arabia or France? Never. I relish my American rights to drive a car and wear a "sheet" in public.

Cheers,

Sarah
15:11 December 20, 2011 by E.N.T.W.I.N.E.D
we are full of these words.... old play, real Islam is real Islam

there is simply no moderate Islam och half moderate eller bla bla bla....

the truth is written and we all know it....

so cut the............................. and all Muslims should leave to their own habitat

believe me its the best for them .... they can not integrate with christian society its hard for them

my opinion....

Cheers
16:47 December 20, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@E.N.T.W.I.N.E.D We are products of our upbringing.. you as well as I. I don't fear or hate you, and feel no desire to impose my beliefs on you. Fear and ignorance generate mistrust and hate. Do you know how many of the Muslims in Muslim countries have no access to education and clean water? How do you think terrorists are bred? Why is Al Qaeda now in Mali, Africa.. one of the poorest countries in the world?

I love real Islam, as much as I love my family and the United States. Would I ever vote against separation of church and state? No. I think if the US Constitution and Bill of Rights had actually been implemented properly in the last decade, we wouldn't have the political and economic fallout that we are having as a nation. I don't know Swedish law, so I have no idea if you understand this.. but this is where the difference lies between moderate and extreme beliefs... the ability to see people as people and base decisions on one's own judgment instead of blindly following somebody else's agenda.
21:32 December 20, 2011 by bcterry
Sarahfas,

Is this the islam that you love?

"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter."

If not, does it mean the koran is faulty, therefore imperfect?

Do you consider this man to be the most "beautiful pattern of conduct" and "example" for mankind to follow! (Qur'an 33:21), as well as the "exalted standard of character" (Qur'an 68:4), and a part of the islam you love?

'What Would Muhammad Do?"
23:34 December 20, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry The Holy Quran contains many lessons on how to live a life of service and devotion. I do believe it is perfect and when read impartially and in context, it conveys deep meaning on the purpose of life... to a Muslim. Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) like Prophet Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc (peace be upon them) gave good lessons to mankind - again, for those who choose to learn from them.

As this is a page to comment on an article about a Swedish 'halal' dating site, a theological debate is irrelevant here. If you would like to know why Muslims choose to practice Islam, I suggest you find a Muslim and ask. 20% of the world is Muslim and the answer will be different depending on where he/she is from - but the gist of it will be similar. If you feel uncomfortable talking to Muslims or have no access to any, maybe www.islamicfinder.org can help you.

Cheers,

Sarah
01:42 December 21, 2011 by bcterry
I'm asking you two simple specific questions about what is written in your books, why won't you simply address them?

I don't feel uncomfortable talking to you as a muslim, but you seem uncomfortable in talking specifics, why not just address the questions head on, and directly?

What's the problem?
03:04 December 21, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry You read selectively - but I am happy to oblige if you are unwilling or unable to do the research for yourself.. at least until The Local moderators decide we are off topic and remove these posts.

Your first "specific" question asks for elaboration on 109 verses, none of which you quote. Please inform me which verses you are referring to and I would be delighted to enlighten you. I'm no scholar but I can share what I believe and practice.

As for 'Do you consider this man to be the most "beautiful pattern of conduct" and "example" for mankind to follow! (Qur'an 33:21), as well as the "exalted standard of character" (Qur'an 68:4), and a part of the islam you love?'

Holy Quran: translated by Englishman Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthal in 1930.

33:21 - Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

68:4 - And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature.

Are these verses part of the Islam I love? Yes and yes. I think they are self explanatory, but if you need me to put them into my own words, I can do that too. 33:21 The messenger of Allah (Prophet Mohamed pbuh) is a good example for whoever cares about Allah and the Judgment Day, and thinks of Allah frequently. 68:4 (look!) you have a mighty personality.

Hope that helps. By the way, did you know my 'books' include the Torah, Bible and Gospels? Muslims revere four books, but only accept Quran in entirety. Abrahamic faiths run parallel as far as history and values, with few key differences. I find it more interesting to debate with atheists. Evolution and Higgs Boson are worthy opponents whereas the Jewish-Christian-Muslim differences are oft-repeated refrains. For New Yorkers anyway.

Feel free to copy paste the other 109 verses ;-)

Peace out.
11:59 December 21, 2011 by bcterry
A very simple direct question,

After reading all the examples in the link i gave you, "What Would Muhammad Do", all of which are referenced in your books, hadiths, koran, do you consider him to be the "most beautiful paatern of conduct and example fpor mankind to follow", as well as the "exalted sandard of character"?

"Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. S. 9:29"

Question 2,

What right do muslims have to demand that anyone acknowledge your mythology, that has absolutely no basis in fact, as being the "religion of truth", and to fight everyone until they pay an islamic tax, and feel they are subdued by islam?

Question 3,

Do you feel that all the calls for violence against non- muslims that can be found in your books, are viable and justified.

There are too many to put up here, but you have to be willing and able to research them in order to give an informed answer.

Here's a list you can start with, all of which are referenced directly to your books.

"The religion of peace - islam: verses of violence"
16:45 December 21, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry As I said, fear and ignorance generate hate and mistrust. I'm glad you are addressing your concern to a real Muslim. As I wrote, I'm not a scholar, so I will express what I believe and may Allah forgive me if I err. I'm Muslim and naturally, I can give you unlimited information on Islam.

It is YOU who has to be specific with your questions if you don't want me to preach to you. I do not hate you or fear you and my beliefs - or the practices stemming from my beliefs - are supported by logic.

Holy Quran, translated by Pickthal

9:29 - Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

-Fight those who are given the book/knowledge but do not believe in God and Judgment Day, still partake of things God has forbidden via His Messenger, and do not follow the Religion of Truth, until they pay tribute and are brought low.

Is this part of the Islam that I love? Yes. Every time I acknowledge the concerns of people like you - people who have access to info about my religion but choose not to believe it, choose to consume alcohol or refuse to pray - I am fighting. Fighting doesn't have to be physical - violence is not condoned in Islam unless it is in self-defense. Google Dictionary states "tribute" means "An act, statement, or gift that is intended to show gratitude, respect, or admiration."

If I can get you to show respect for my religion, I have made you pay tribute and brought you low. Simple.

Holy Quran -109 - Say: O disbelievers! (1) I worship not that which ye worship; (2) Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3) And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

However, I firmly believe talking about our differences is essential to promoting tolerance in a globalist society. I have extended family on every continent except Antarctica, spanning multiple religions and races. Family reunions involve funny accents and culture clash.. but I think a time will come when more people will be global citizens. That is, if Iran-NorthKorea-Pakistan-Israel don't make use of their nuclear capabilities.

I helped you with three verses. If you can find the other 108, let me know. If you need further clarification on these three, that's okay too.

Cheers,

Sarah
19:46 December 21, 2011 by bcterry
Question 1, not answered, completely ignored, as expected.

Question 2, "Is this part of the Islam that I love? Yes. Every time I acknowledge the concerns of people like you - people who have access to info about my religion but choose not to believe it, choose to consume alcohol or refuse to pray - I am fighting. Fighting doesn't have to be physical - violence is not condoned in Islam unless it is in self-defense. Google Dictionary states "tribute" means "An act, statement, or gift that is intended to show gratitude, respect, or admiration."

I specifically asked you "What right do muslims have to demand that anyone acknowledge your mythology, that has absolutely no basis in fact, as being the "religion of truth", and to fight everyone until they pay an islamic tax, and feel they are subdued by islam?" in reference to this specific quote,

"Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. S. 9:29"

All these points were implemented in the ottoman empire.

Once more, what right do muslims have to fight all others until they acknowledge your mythological version of the truth, which is based solely on the word of one man who had no proof whatsoever, and demand that all others be taxed and subdued?

Please try to respond specifically, to the specific question.

Question 3 on my specific question about the specific quotes i gave you, from your own books.

Not answered or acknowledged, and completely ignored as expected.

"I helped you with three verses. If you can find the other 108, let me know. If you need further clarification on these three, that's okay too."

I drew you a map, i gave you the link, and you now say you cannot find the others?

C'mon Sarah, i know when the snow is flying, so let's get real here.
20:38 December 21, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry First, take a deep breath. Count to five. Let it out. Repeat three times. Feel better?

Okay. You did not give me any link. I DID respond to every verse from the Quran that you gave me. You did not give me any quote from any other book.. not any authentic Hadith (words/deeds of Prophet Mohamed (pbuh)), nothing from the Bible, nor the Torah. You only gave me references to verses in the Quran, which I responded to.

The Ottoman Turks lasted from 1299 to 1923. I was not born then and I am not Turkish last I checked. I am trying to be as real as I can be. I have already written that I find certain Saudi Arabian Wahabi laws/interpretations to be oppressive. I believe no man, woman or child should be denied education, suffrage, free-expression regardless of race or religion. Where oil or corporate wealth causes a minority to subjugate the majority, it is the right of the majority to reinstate their inalienable rights.

The part you and Al Qaeda do not understand is that everybody does not have to be coerced into believing the same thing. Sure, I wish everybody believed in God and shared my values. I really truly do believe in an Afterlife, in judgment for my actions after I die, and the possibility of Hell if I don't measure up. Obviously, everyone doesn't agree with that. So the next best option is peaceful coexistence.

Just because you don't understand why I would choose to be Muslim doesn't mean there aren't other topics we can agree on. If we met in a supermarket we'd probably talk about the cold, which may start a conversation on how nice fireplaces are and how I use mine to roast chestnuts, and marshmallows to make s'mores with graham crackers and chocolate. But since I'm Muslim, my marshmallows are certified halal.. they taste the same but the beef gelatin comes from cows slaughtered cleanly in the name of God. That might start a conversation on how I don't eat chicken, beef, or turkey because I once had the good fortune to see a cow being slaughtered live for a religious festival.

Anyway, the point is everybody is different, to some extent. If you cannot accept my differences, I cannot accept yours. I am not responsible for the policies of the Ottoman Empire or Al Qaeda. Same way you are not responsible for the Crusades or the KKK.

But thank you for making me smile :-)
21:00 December 21, 2011 by bcterry
"Okay. You did not give me any link."

11:59 December 21, 2011 by bcterry

"Here's a list you can start with, all of which are referenced directly to your books.

"The religion of peace - islam: verses of violence"

"Just because you don't understand why I would choose to be Muslim doesn't mean there aren't other topics we can agree on. If we met in a supermarket we'd probably talk about the cold, which may start a conversation on how nice fireplaces are and how I use mine to roast chestnuts, and marshmallows to make s'mores with graham crackers and chocolate."

This isn't about you, or me.

I don't know you, nor you me, and i have no reason to question whether you are a good person, ....... from your posts, i believe you are.

"@bcterry First, take a deep breath. Count to five. Let it out. Repeat three times. Feel better?"

That's a shot, i know you are young, i take no offense, and i will not respond in kind.

I've been talking deep breaths for over 66 years, it's one of life's wonderful pleasures, and i've never felt better.

You see, ....... it's all about the simple things.

Thanks for your concern. :)
21:23 December 21, 2011 by sarah02
@ #50 Gamla Hälsingebock

that was funny!!! :D
00:13 December 22, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry It is about you and me. Maybe you couldn't say before that from an online comment exchange, you discovered one Muslim who might be a good person. I apologize for the barb. You're the same age as my dad and I respect my dad.

"The religion of peace - islam: verses of violence" - this is a quote, not a link.

I don't know which verses of violence you are referring to. I wrote before that violence is condoned in self-defense.. so I would need to read the verses to discuss them. Wherever there is authorization for arms, it is directly related to a broken peace treaty or protecting family from harm etc. If somebody attacks my family today December 21 2011 I will not turn the other cheek. I will fight to protect the people I care about.

Quran is dynamic. That means multiple interpretations are possible and it has withstood the test of time. The book is not the problem. My grandfather first taught me to read the Quran and I have often turned to it for guidance.

What is causing the violence? The Afghanistan War was intended to eliminate terrorists who sheltered there after 9/11. Bin Laden jumped the border, but was killed a decade later in Pakistan. However, for Afghanistan, the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed and the destruction of their country's infrastructure has made Western forces appear to be the invaders waging a holy war. That's what the Taliban teaches villagers. These invaders are going to kill you for being Muslim if you don't fight back... and it is very very difficult for NATO to convince them otherwise due to language and culture barriers. So terrorism is a lot worse now in that region.

I'm not biased because I'm from NY. Muslims in other countries may see it differently. I had family working in the twin towers. The terror threat was real for me. Although I think Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld totally bungled up their jobs, its time to look to the future. A future where all children have access to education and corporations/oil sheikhs do not snatch livelihoods away from hard working people.

Educating the villagers in Afghanistan, providing medical care, and helping their economy would have helped the NATO mission so much more than trillions of dollars spent on drone attacks and military bases. We need those dollars to feed citizens who lost jobs then homes to foreclosures. Instead, Congress passed another billion dollar bill to fund the military.. and now they are allowed to hold American citizens as terror suspects indefinitely without trial. Benjamin Franklin is turning over in his grave in horror.

Sorry you're Swedish. All of that doesn't apply to you.

In conclusion, if I have not specifically answered your question, it is because your list was a quote, it was not a link.

Best,

Sarah
14:09 December 22, 2011 by bcterry
"@bcterry It is about you and me. Maybe you couldn't say before that from an online comment exchange, you discovered one Muslim who might be a good person. I apologize for the barb. You're the same age as my dad and I respect my dad."

I have no doubt that you, and the majority of muslims are good decent people, just like everyone else. I cannot comment on any individual i do not know personally, or know of because of their deeds.

"The religion of peace - islam: verses of violence" - this is a quote, not a link. "

Google the quote.

" Wherever there is authorization for arms, it is directly related to a broken peace treaty or protecting family from harm etc. If somebody attacks my family today December 21 2011 I will not turn the other cheek. I will fight to protect the people I care about. "

You won't like these facts, as well as the others i gave you on muhammad, and i don't expect a response, but the truth is the truth.

"http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10077&start=0"

"Sorry you're Swedish. All of that doesn't apply to you. "

Actually i'm Canadian, and it does apply to me, as i consider Americans to be our good neighbors, and greatest allies.

All the best to you as well.

Terry
20:14 December 22, 2011 by Sarahfaz
Hey Terry,

Canadian, nice. We vacation in Niagara on the Canada side. Your falls are nicer. NY got the short end of that stick.

I googled your "The religion of peace - islam: verses of violence" and its just propaganda against Islam, written by people who are not Muslims. Its like an atheist's opinion of Christianity. When the objective of the atheist is to disprove the existence of God, he/she would only select text that shows Christianity in the worst light. All the good would be disregarded.. by an atheist. Similarly, Islam is best learned from a Muslim.. then you know what they actually believe and practice.

For example, the first quote on that site is 2.191-193, which they claim means "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah"

Pickthal's translation of the same verses 2.191-193 is "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers."

Notice how that website inserted and deleted words? The Quran is not intended to be changed, but read as it is. It is beautiful as it is. In these verses, we are told to fight against religious persecution. When persecution is no more, stop fighting. Logical.

I can go on and on.. with every verse referenced by that website, but I don't know if you want to be preached to. So let me know if you want me to copy/paste/explain the rest of them.

The other link you provided.. forum09.. questioned Prophet Mohamed's (pbuh) battles. Here's a link describing the battles http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/article.php?id=38&lang=

600sAD and 2011AD are vastly different. I agree there are Muslims who want to implement laws from the mid 650s that dealt with a world that doesn't exist today. Those are fringe groups - like Swedes who think multi-culturalism will annihilate their ethnicity. Those Hitlers will not rise up if the majority doesn't give in to their propaganda. Egypt needs to be careful.

Like Christians, Muslims have divisions. Instead of Catholic, Protestant: Methodist, Presbyterian, Calvinist, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, etc , there are Shia, Sunni.. then there are four schools of thought: Hanafi Hanbali Shaafi Maliki for Sunnis and two Jafari, Ismaili for the Shiites.

Merry Christmas,

Sarah
20:23 December 22, 2011 by bcterry
Merry Christmas to you as well.

Terry
09:14 December 23, 2011 by Rick Methven
@Sarah,

You have made some eloquent posts here with rational explanation of misconceptions about Islam. Most of which I learnt from my Muslim friends.

Unfortunately, I fear that your words have fallen on deaf ears when it comes to posters like bcterry, who only reads or believes something that confirms his preconceived misconceptions about Islam and Muslims in general. Hence his reference material from extreme right wing neo fascist web sites.
13:44 December 23, 2011 by bcterry
I was wondering when you would show up with your usual personal attacks Rickie.

Good to hear from you.

I'm flattered by your chasing me around like a puppy dog, always amusing and appreciated.

Now off you go to the moderators, i'm sure they're expecting you.
20:56 December 23, 2011 by Sarahfaz
@Rick

There are individuals whose prejudices are so ingrained, they cannot be reasoned with. Anybody willing to learn about beliefs different from his/her own is not evil. If we attack the views of someone afraid of something unknown, he/she will hate both the unknown and us, for mocking those views.

The truths I follow allow me to have healthy liver, lungs - make certain whichever guy has a go at me knows he's in it for the long haul - make me aware of the suffering of people less fortunate than me - and most important, force me to acknowledge my daily existence is a test from my Creator which will be graded when I die.

I am not surprised if that is hard for one Christian to understand, because I have found it difficult to make some Muslims understand it.

Like views on apostates. I happen to have a cousin who I am pretty sure is a Muslim apostate. Mom strong Catholic, dad strong Muslim, confused childhood story. He even stopped talking to his dad. BUT when economy crashed and he went broke and his dad was the only one who gave him extensive financial support, I actually saw him stand and pray with his dad more than once. Joined us on Eid too (Muslim equivalent of Christmas). I still think he's an apostate in the head where it counts, but that's between him and God. Who are humans to judge?

My candy cane is yummy. Sugar rush is definitely a highlight of this season. I have no problem making gingerbread houses, or singing xmas carols.. or hanukkah songs. oh hanukkah oh hanukkah come light the menorrahhh, let's have a party we'll all dance the horahh. gatherrr round the table we'll give you a treatt, dreidles to play with and latkes to eat... I just don't believe in what I'm eating, singing.. whatever. Like non-Muslim friends fasting one day in Ramadan. They're just curious, the faith isn't there. It's called peace and harmony.

Happy Holidays :-)
14:48 February 14, 2012 by smustafa
@SaraHfaz, Thank you. :)

For the negative people out there, such hate.

In regards to the article and many complaining that the parents should not be involved. They are not involved. They do not decide whether the boy/girl decide to date or not.

They are there for guidance and to make their children feel that their parents are ok with them meeting, rather than the boy/girl meet on their own and that can lead to sex/children out of wedlock...etc etc.

Before you jump yelling that this is not wrong. It is not wrong. It is perfectly normal in your culture, but not in islam. As i understand and accept that, why you don't try to understand that (our way) is also acceptable.

Why do other cultures/customs frighten you? Let me guess, you believe your way is the only way to live in this day and age. But that is a very close minded view.

Rather than that, why not be accepting? Let other people live the way their way to live. Other cultures still have "dowries", that does not mean it is wrong. It is their way of living.

I am a muslim, and I don't discriminate.

Try to be peaceful and open your mind to other possibilities. They are not wrong, they are just different.

Regards,
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