February 10, 2010
Published: 23 Jun 09 16:24 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/
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A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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What a sad, sad lot.
Personally I think the child will gravitate naturally toward children of its own sex and begin behaving in either feminine or masculine ways. Gender is not entirely socially constructed. Much of it is in fact innate.
There was an interesting dagis project in Gävle a few years ago (Brave girls and tender boys) which challenged traditional gender norms - staff who thought they treated the pre-scholar the same were horrified to see the differences on video - then the children spent a part of the day doing things normally more encouraged with the opposite sex
http://www.intercultural.ro/theogs/file/Br...Tender_Boys.pdf
Maybe it's typical to impose a gender role on a child and expect them to live up to it, but I know from personal experience that it can be painful, frustrating and destructive if it's not a good fit. I wish the best for Pop. :)
we treat boys and girls differently (and they act differently) which i think is a large part of nature, though certainly nurture plays a role. since "pop" is only one case study, we'll never know what the "experiment" produced.
To be honest, I think a better way would be to raise a child loosely according to his or her biological sex, and to make it clear that the gender boundaries are not cast in stone and they are free to try out their personality and interests as the opposite sex if they feel so inclined. I wouldn't be giving a 4-year-old girl a crew cut or putting a 4-year-old boy in a dress unless they specifically asked for it.
Bisonex
Thank you to those brave enough to share your points of view. You have expanded my opinion and I no longer think the parents are bananas.
If the child is actually intersex that's one thing- allowing a freedom to explore identity, etc. But allowing your child to be identified as male or female doesn't force you to treat them one way or another- why make life harder on the poor kid?
http://www.svd.se/nyheter/idagsidan/barnun...kel_2559041.svd
Let me invite you to my new blog: A wonderful life in Sweden: http://wonderfulsweden.blogspot.com/
Brgds
S.Thuresdotter
Nowt su funny as folk!
A women in our neck of the woods sends her young son to school dressed as a girl.
Apparently the teachers say nothing and accept it as normal.
Secondly...why are people reporting on this? how is this news?????
a pair of eejits who shouldnt be trusted to raise a ladder.
However my guess is that by school age the gender will no longer be a secret and that Pop will have some say in this when alone with friends
The parents will prob be complaining when their child is gay, they are asking for it now tho!!
Id assume the parents are totally Swedish, prob very 'in touch with their feeling' as a Swede would say
Sounds pretty gay to me!! Poor kid!
PS: Ghey is contagious. You can catch it over the internet.
Brave or crazy??? We’ll just have to wait and see.
Is the child a boy or a girl under Swedish law?
Skane asks:
"What if the child has been born with both male and female wedding tackle?"
He/she will have his/her sex determined by respective parents and doctors, usually a consultant paediatrician and, hopefully, they'll get it right and won't do surgery to "correct" anything. When the child reaches puberty, he/she will see the development and begin to "feel" like they belong to one sex or the other. A genetic test is available these days which takes some of the guesswork out of it.
Bisonex
You have your A game today, Kodos.
Do you know that I have posted about ABBA and The Sound of Music here within the last 24 hours. And now I have referenced my Dyke friends that live down the road. You don't suppose that I have been infected do you? I won't have to give up my grey socks and generally disheveled appearance will I? Is there an antidote? I don't even like show-tunes.
I wouldn't necessarily worry about an antidote, either. All you have done is broadened your horizons.
Now...if you will excuse me, I have a burning desire to shimmy on over to REI in a pick-up truck and pick up the latest, summery plaid fashions, cargo shorts and hiking boots.
We are all human, but we are DIFFERENT!!
Apples and bananas are both fruits, but they are different! Apples can go in the fridge, but bananas don't do so well when chilled.
There is NO gender equality. While men may be bigger and stronger, women are smarter and nicer to look at. And, jaja I know some women out there can take down the biggest and meanest man ... and that there are some rather feminine (yet straight) men out there also, but get real people. Didn't ANYONE pay attention in biology class??
And no, I am not a bigot or anti-gay, I am just realistic. Good luck to you, Pop ... I hope the kids go easy on you at recess. Kids are CRUEL!!!
These parents are idiots for subjecting their child to who knows what kind of abuse from 'it's' peers.
and in the end, i pretty much agree that you are who you are and how you related to it gender wise. nurture only tweaks the ground work.
http://www.female-bodybuilders.org/
You were exclusively refering to your solely point of view, weren't you?
(Sorry, as I have skipped too many Biology classes, cus I was more interested to spy dirty teenagers inside the locker room --- Would you please elaborate which scientific evidences prove that women are smarter?)
Whaa? Who needs to get real?
Poor little tyke, he will be like a lamb to the slaughter when he eventually goes to school.
it's unlikely that pop will remain genderless for very long once in the pre/school system
Frankly, I have known personally a few children who went through much serious and difficult times than Pop and they are not dysfunctional adults, actually I probably have met much more in this category(dysfunctionals) who were raised in classic "loving" and wonderful families.
How can he/she lives in country which everything runs with a person-number???
They can not keep it hush hush for long...what a stupid act, I think the parents just try to make themselve famous...
crazy Swedes...
is pop hungry?
mommy will get pop some lunch.
all the "worrying" about pop is kinda dumb.
I think it's a great idea if the parents not give a child stereotypical ideas about how they should behave, because of their gender, let them play with both dolls and trains, etc. but to deny a gender completely, this will severely mess them up. Children learn about themselves through their basic facts and figures, at first. They establish who they are by understanding their identity, and yes, gender is a big part of that. It doesn't matter what stereotypical ideas others might have and display to the child, as long as their parents can give them solid foundations, it shouldn't matter.
This is a child's life, not some social experiment! I remember the Brenda/David study from psychology, do they want their child to end up the same way? These people are not taking their responsibility as parents seriously.
Parents are not disclosing to the world! Kid definitely knows own sex! No body taught humans their sex differences ages ago. It doesn't matter whether they disclose to others or not.
Bisonex
Why should children be forced to act a certain way because of their gender? Why make your child into a caricature? People who dress their children as strictly gendered mini-adults are doing their children and society more damage than Pop's parents.
No-one said Pop doesn't know Pop's gender, but why does anyone else need to know? Why does a girl need to be treated differently from a boy or vice versa? There is no reasonable answer to that question. Fitting into society's narrow construct of "normal" is a pretty unfulfilling ambition for anyone.
Bisonex
At least, if they exist, they haven't really called their kid Pop - that would be worth reporting them to social services for.
--Tom
xoxo,
Well Girl! Look At You!
And by the way, what's the point of the entire exercise? Is it to allow Pop to choose his own gender rather than having one chosen for him? Who would like to make book on the following proposition: Pop's hormones and bits-n-bobs will motivate him to chose the same gender that society would have chosen for him on that same basis.
Sex can be classified in many ways: genetic, hormonal, chromosomal, genital, etc. A single person may have conflicting classifications based on levels examined. It's high time we stop putting so much emphasis on gender. Why does it matter? Particularly in this case. What difference does it make if you don't know a child's sex? Why is this so offensive?
As you asked, what if the child IS a hermaphrodite? It may well be, which may be what caused these parents to undertake this path. WE don't know, and frankly, it's more interesting to see how strongly people are reacting to this story.
Hmmmm.
If parents wish to avoid locking in their child's sexual identity too stringently, that can be done by giving them maximum opportunities to explore gender norms. If a little girl wants to be a tomboy, wear lumberjack shirts and play with trucks, let her. If a boy wants to be a bridesmaid at a friend's wedding, let him (I never understood why males can't wear dresses anyway in a world that lets females wear pants). Allow and even facilitate experimentation, behaviour and, where applicable, identification, that is normally attributed to their opposite sex, but trying to make them sexless is making them stand out and appear freakish to their peers, and that is cruel.
These parents are effectively performing an experiment on their child. Shame on them - children aren't guinea pigs and shouldn't be treated as such. When it comes to medical experiments there are strict ethical rules applying. Its a pity similar rules don't apply for this experiment, especially since it concerns a critical phase in the baby's emotional and mental development. Furthermore, this family has already appeared in the national media talking about this case albeit under false names. However, anonymity is often a rather fragile thing - this has the potential to follow Pop through his/her life whether he/she wants it or not. Not only can this coverage affect the "experiment" its also ethically dubious.
"We are born naked...all the rest is drag." ~RuPaul
What is happening is that a parenting strategy is being trialled for which there are little or no data available and the outcome and potential risks are entirely unknown. This is an experiment - I'm a scientist, I do such things for a living. Furthermore, as mentioned, the experiment itself is tainted by the ethically dubious publicity surrounding it.
Furthermore, if you wish to make statements regarding societal and biological aspects of gender please supply references to works in internationally respected peer reviewed journals to back them up. Otherwise your post comes across as (using your own words) being unspeakably arrogant in assuming the correctness of your assertions.
As a parent, and as a doctoral scholar, I will provide the peer-reviewed documentation in gender studies if you really desire - my approach to how I write and speak (with some authority on the subject) is not designed to be offensive. I speak from a bit of experience and knowledge. Using ad hominem approach with me, rather than countering with the same documentation you request is just slightly hypocritical.
Also, be careful of the strawman arguments. Nowhere did I imply there was a manual for raising children. However, this is an extreme approach for which, as already stated, there exist risks and no or little applicable research. In other words, an experiment, and one potentially flawed by publicity.
I find it ironic that you would accuse me of an hominem approach - I merely used one of your phrases and pointed out that your using upper case didn't help your argument. I suggest you reread your own posts and apply the same ad hominem criteria to judging those.
Zucker, K. (2007). What is the best therapeutic care for children and youth with gender identity issues? (the last word). CrossCurrents - The Journal of Addiction and Mental Health (10)4.
In this article, Dr. Zucker, head of the Gender Identity Service in the Child, Youth and Family Program at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, asserts that, "[s]ome clinicians have decided that a child as young as three has a fixed cross-gender identity and that parents should therefore allow their child to move into a cross-gender role (e.g., at school). This has left many parents confused about the best approach to helping their child," due to the fact that, "that there is more plasticity in childhood gender identity than was previously thought."
In fact it all seems to be support my own position which is that this is an experiment with an uncertain outcome and undefined risks, and is therefore ethically dubious.
Oh, and my doctoral studies aren't philosophical in nature. I'm not aiming for a Ph.D. - not to be an academic snob, but I've no desire to be a professional scholar, if that makes sense.
*laughing* And the likelier reason for avoidance is nothing of *my* business - it is likelier that you're not a parent, which is perfectly fine. I might well be wrong about that - but I doubt it. One thing I've noted over the better part of my past two decades as a parent is that the most critical people toward parents are those who aren't.
You provided the peer reviewed work and I provided a comment as to why it failed to support your position - in fact it rather supported mine. Nowhere have I ever pretended to be the expert - rather the opposite. My argument is that this is unchartered territory and an experiment.
The parent question is irrelevant and carries a simplistic implication that in any discussion between a parent and a non-parent on child rearing, the parent's opinion always represents the best practice. While this is itself ridiculous, I'm also quite sure there is a diversity of opinions within the parenting community regarding the case of Pop.
As for the fine detail.. well the devil is always in the detail. Often research doesn't say what we think it does and we have to accept that we simply don't know as much as we thought.
It isn't really anybody else's business what genitalia a child has. When Pop gets older, then it'll come into play. For now, let Pop wear dresses, climb trees, play with trucks as s/he sees fit.
There are a shower of intellectually empowered, ultra feminist bawlbags promoting this mumbo jumbo. Every child should be allowed the opportunity to develop within their wider social environment with as normal an upbringing as possible. Those of you who believe you can programme children into some kind of gender neutral bubble are doing them a diservice and who gave you the right to do it anyway? I note the usual insinuation from prose that because a man has an opinion on this somehow one's argument is rendered automatically redundant. Criticising religous parents so as to achieve some kind of relativist defence of the indefensible is just another typical red thread for the genus drivel so popular in Swedish third level universities and elsewhere. Absolute shite from start to finish.
The writers' selection of Pinker as the expert here seems a little odd to me, especially as what is put forth dodges the entire nature vs nurture nature of gender, which seems to be pertinent here.
Many condemnations of the parents seem to be veiled expressions of a wish that Pops be punished for the parents causing people to question transphobia.
All biases born of privilege seem to assume that the marginalized identity needs explaining/rationalizing/defending whereas the privileged position does not. The parents are being asked to justify a child rearing strategy that doesn't assume a specific gender identity, and the trauma one imagines that that could bring, but it's accepted that raising kids in a fashion that will traumatize them if they discover themselves to be GLBT is ok.
I think that as long as the parents support Pop if/when Pop decides what gender expression zie wants, that this is a healthy thing, and I think that if the parents of other children can refrain from poisoning their kids against Pop, then it will probably happen before Pop is very old, and Pop will be fine. If it turns out that Pop would have had gender confusion, then at the very least, Pop will know that zie has parents that have hir back.
However you may wish to dress the whole case up in pseudosociological jargon, this remains a situation in which parents are making an experiment on a child. Furthermore, this is now public and, pound to a penny, everybody in Pop's district will know all about it. I pity poor Pop when he/she goes off to school. You seem to be under the naive belief that children will only bully if "poisoned by their parents". This is nonsense, as many good, loving parents who have learned that their child has engaged in bullying - could testify.
People keep relating this to the David/Brenda issue, and I don't think that's entirely fair. David was lied to his whole life. Pop hasn't been told s/he has no gender, and I strongly suspect that the parents aren't going to stop Pop from telling other people what's under those big boy/girl underpants when s/he wants to spill the beans. Honesty is huge. I wish Pop and the parents luck in all this, and i hope their community is more accepting than the comments section on this site.
I"M TOTALLY FOR IT!!!*
But srsly it's a great experiment , can't wait to see what happens! And is this "ideological upbringing" really worse tahn catholic/nationalist/religious fundamentalist upbringing that is practiced by sooo much of ppl around..?
No f&^kin' way...
Soo let us watch in amazement and all you playa haters STFU!!!!
*in Sweden, actually.;p
What would you sue them for? For trying not to fall into old conventions?
In my feminist poker blog I tie this idea to poker =)
http://www.pokerjunkie.com/poker-blog/women-and-poker/secret-gender-of-baby-brilliant-strategy
If only Pinker could see past "Telling" children what their identity is and letting them live it out and/or play into it, she'd be a really wonderful child psychologist. But because she doesn't trust their nature she's doing a dis-service to children. I'm betting these parents are following the child's lead.
School may be hard for this child, what's new about that? Fat boys and girls, kids of different skin tones, kids with different-abilities, kids who are really smart, kids who have learning issues - all kids have trouble in school.
This child however may be more open to difference and I'm guessing will have creative advantages because the won't have to work at opening/expanding the box especially if their sex is female.
We must all begin to trust that we were created perfect, with the ability to choose our own genders.