March 22, 2010
Published: 25 Jun 09 11:04 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/20268/20090625/
Dictionary tool Double click on a word to get a translation
"Freedom from indoctrination ought to be a basic human right for all children," argues ABBA star Björn Ulvaeus in a passionate plea for Sweden to rethink its policy on faith-based schools.
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
Heavy snowfalls and treacherous ice resulted in a slew of road accidents in Stockholm, Uppsala, Södermanland and Västmanland on Sunday. READ »
A powerful explosion ripped through the grand old restaurant Hipp on Kalendegatan in central Malmö on Sunday night, damaging buildings in the vicinity. READ »
The Swedish curling team has claimed the bronze at the Paralympics overcoming the USA 7-5 in Vancouver on Saturday. The host nation, Canada won the gold after beating the Koreans 8-7. READ »
American tennis star Andy Roddick beat sixth-seeded Swede Robin Söderling on Saturday in a 6-4, 3-6, 6-3 victory at the Indian Wells Masters 1000 on Saturday. Roddick will now face Ivan Ljubicic in Sunday's tennis final. READ (1 COMMENT) »
A young Swedish woman who falsely accused her father of rape will now face charges of her own. The father had received a five-year prison sentence in 2007 after the then 17-year-old girl reported he had sexually assaulted her. READ (9 COMMENTS) »
A 19-year-old male sustained serious injuries during a knife fight on Saturday night in the neighborhood of Varberga in Örebro in central Sweden. Another 16-year-old boy was later arrested for the assault. READ »
Negotiations between the Commercial Employees´ Union (Handelsanställdas förbund) and the Swedish Federation of Trade (Svensk Handel) employers' organisation have stalled, according to the trade union. READ »
More than 50,000 households in the Karlstad region in western Sweden were without water on Saturday due a serious water leak. Although service has been restored, residents are advised to boil drinking water for the next several days. READ (2 COMMENTS) »
"If you read Swedish, the CCCC review is as good as it gets, if not the picture of the crowd speaks a thousand words..." READ »
Jobs - in Sweden, in English
Get your career on track with our job listings from Sweden's top employers.
Property - renting or buying in Sweden
Navigating the minefield of renting or buying an apartment or house in Sweden.
Weather
"There is no bad weather, just bad clothes," say the Swedes. Here's the forecast for everyone else.
Introducing...
Every week The Local serves up a spicy helping of Swedish celebrity for your delectation.
Stockholm Syndrome
Tales of crazy Swedish classes, hamfisted attempts to understand - and explain - real Swedes, and varied experiences of fellow foreigners gathered for your amusement.
Register now for:
> Free use of noticeboard
> Special discounts
> Weekly news roundup
> Unlimited use of discuss
430 jobs in Sweden, in English
114 new jobs this week
0 new jobs today
Your comments about this article:
The comments below have not been moderated in advance and are not produced by The Local unless clearly stated. Readers are responsible for the content of their own comments. Comments that breach our terms and conditions will be removed.
Please Sweden...WAKE UP!!
I'm not discriminatory against any one religion - I despise them all completely and totally on equal terms.
Offended? Then forgive me. And move on :)
One gets exactly what one deserves: the fruit of one's past actions.
Past actions can be from this life - we do see cases where one got what one deserved.
But mostly, in this life one enjoys or suffers the fruit of actions in past lives.
'Karma' applies to every living thing, every moment, until 'Nirvana'. One can suddenly taste the fruit of a past action at any moment without any warning.
There is therefore perfect justice - one always gets what one has 'earned' and one never gets what one has not 'earned'. No one to blame or credit except one's own past actions.
Keeping the above in mind, look at the situation of the world's living things (not just humans). Think what they might have done to be in this situation. And then lead a life that will not lead you into such a situation in your next birth.
Thinking intelligently and logically, it surely cannot be possible that one is born, lives and dies and that is it. It surely has to be more complicated than that.
Very few criminals get caught. In such a complex universe can it simply be possible that once they die that will be it?
So more important than the question whether there is a God or not, are the questions:
What is the aim of life? And am I achieving the aim of life? What will be the consequences (to myself) of the life I am leading?
Now I know that my treating them badly is just their bad karma, so it is on them, and therefore unavoidable.
So fjuck you, you tedious fjuck.
Erm, no, there's probably isn't. If there is, he/she/it stopped caring about us a loooooong time ago (if he ever did, why should he care about us in particular, when he's got all of cosmos to look after? Because we were created in his image? Oh, please...).
It's all up to US to make this world a decent place to live, work and grow. Let me say that again: It's all up to us, it's OUR responsibility to make our world better by working together, trusting each other and putting our minds to good use. "God" is not going to help us out, if he ever did. Bjorn is right, any form of religious indoctrination in schools should just stop—kids can make up their own mind.
As long as we keep believing that a fictional creation will somehow magically guide us and relieve us of the responsibility for sorting out our problems, welll.... we're not really going to make any progress are we?
Still, whatever gets you through the day. For me, it's cigarettes, and that's more harmful than believing in god.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html
What a tosser.
He hast spoken - now enjoy your lives and don't worry if it's deemed right or wrong by a possible gassy substance that may or may not have created the universe.
Just enjoy it! Woo- hoo!! Eat those apples... take a cha cha chance
Only a fool would say that there is no God!
What about the eye? The eye is too complicated and beautiful to have been made by nature, so it must have been God.
The arguments for the existence of God always make me pee my pants with laughter.
Who can not say that their introduction to religion was from their parents and family and schools, all working from the standpoint that their own beliefs were the true ones. And even that to doubt that belief was a crime in itself. Hence the overwhelming majority have some belief/faith imposed on them from an early age. Who has ever brought up their children under a regime that this is what we believe in, but you make your own mind up when you are grown up enough to do so.
Now some honesty, please. Its a separate issue to the agnosticism also expressed.
ps And the headline here makes the fuller statement more provocative - otherwise he certainly has a right to be agnostic, though whether others need to know is another matter.
What about human rights for parents, for the whole family? Should their opinion has any influence on their children's education, or there is a place only for mr. Björn's opinion? For me it looks like an attempt to produce unified citizens with unified beliefs in schools. Kind of brainwashing.
- how many of these damn threads do we have to have?
Dont remember it being argued quite this way before. Anyway, you can always ignore it.
Like you did with my comment? Go, go cyberwarrior!
Well, to make everyone happy, if nobody else cares, I dont really care that much either, so on this topic bye, farväl, hyvästi
If we're talking about mature person - I'm agree with you. If we talking about kids - I don't :) Just because of immaturity of children minds. I think it's very hard to build up own beliefs when parents are telling that God exists and schoolteacher is telling that he doesn't. Only conclusion in this situation - adults are telling a lot of bullshit, how they could be right about anything, if they can't agreed on such basic thing?!
The religions of the world are all man made. Not one of them has what God intended for the world. Mankind has taken the Bible and twisted its intents to fit what he/she wants to justify their behaviors. That is one reason they have all become troublesome, there is no truth or the truth has been obscured.
I respect Bjorn's viewpoint that there is no God. I do not agree with it, but I do respect it. Many may ask why?
Simple, God gave each man/woman the right and freedom to choose. If I am following God, who am I to take that freedom away? That is between each individual and God.
Thank you and God Bless !!
The freedom to indoctrinate your children is not a right. You can teach your children your values, no problem - you should not be able to "teach" your children there is a God and force them to go to religious services.
I do not believe in God anymore. Growing up does that, so I don't think that parents telling you anything will always mean that you continue in their footsteps. My dad did not believe in God though so I don't know how much indoctrination I had. I was always able to take what I liked about the religion and discard what I thought was silly.
That said, being married to a self ascribed, "Evangelical Agnostic" I can see where people think religion is brainwashing since children don't necessarily have a say in the matter - typically following their parents into faith.
All of that is an aside, however.
Discussions like this always revert to someone saying, "If you don't believe in G-d, you're wrong." And another genius retorts with, "If you believe in G-d, you're an idiot." It's circular, without end and in all the years where I have either participated in or observed such a debate, nary the tween shall meet and neither side will walk away respecting the other.
It's the eternal dead horse of the internet.
Who has decided that?
> You can teach your children your values, no problem - you should not be able to "teach" your children there is a God
Of cause, there are many Gods! But anyway, how can anyone tell me what I should or shouldn't tell to my children? Can I tell them that Tooth fairy exists?!
> force them to go to religious services.
Can I force them to go to brush teeth? Can I? Or may be I should ask somebody as wise as Björn from ABBA first?
Yes. In theory. But these wily biblebashers have ways and means of influencing the kommun, the schools, the law.makers, the judges............it's almost insidious.
Don't even start me on privately-run schools.........
Why do people blow themselves up in market places or on trains?
Or let's reduce it; WTF are Santa Claus or Santa Lucia all about, Teacher?
You do realize that it is conceivably possible to find a story, on a daily basis, about religion and the existence of a higher being. Swedish or not. Law or not. There is *always* a current story about religion.
This topic was recently debated approximately two weeks ago when the news of a specific advertisement was reported by The Local. I'm sorry you cannot recognize the tedium of this argument or the fact that some people are sick to death of reading the judgmental bile from the vehement supporters of either side of the debate but there is absolutely nothing new, ground breaking or earth shattering in this thread. Nothing. All this does is breed contempt between two groups of thought that will never, ever, ever agree - let alone respect one another.
grade for the day=fail
Believe me folks, there is no heaven and no hell and no God.
See what I mean, 007.
1- Is there God?
2- Should schools give education in religion(s)?
1- The super order in nature is proof enough that this order is not the result of a series of haphazard co-incidents, in no matter how long time it has evolved, but
is the design of a super power we call "God". Various prophets have carried God's messages to people. Miracles have occured and still do occur now pointing to a super power. Its rules we do not know, as we are only human beings, but we are trying to find out about them with our modest sciences.
2- Schools should offer education in the God's religions, on a free-choice basis. If the students choose to take a course in religions, there should be no marks or examinations in them.
The State should be free from religion. If Governments have religions, people are obliged to believe, which is against the religions.
Askin Ozcan
Author of "SMALL MIRACLES"
ISBN 1598001000 ((Outskirts Press)
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child
Article 13
1. The child shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of the child's choice.
Article 14
1. States Parties shall respect the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.
Yeah, that's the same.
All belief systems lead to sorrow.
how is this news?
love stinks
yeah yeah
Did you know that they were originally called Snoopy and the Sopwith Camels? Their harmonica player was known as "Magic Dick".
I don't think he exists or ever did exist. It's all a big lie. Nobody will ever sucker me and cause me to believe otherwise.
God never said don't touch it, only that they couldn't eat it. It's religion that gets us in trouble. Religion is about RULES. God desires RELATIONSHIP.
Don't confuse the two or you've fallen into the lie about eating from the KNOWLEDGE of good AND evil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
This, of course, being Sweden, we can appreciate all of these foreign folk tales without believing a word of it. It amuses us when you attempt to present the traditional folk tales of the Middle East as literal fact that would somehow impact us. It is as if we were trying to convince you that Little Red Riding Hood really did have a run-in with the Wolf.
Religion comes from the word to re-ligate or "return to the law". It can also be expressed as return to rules, regulations & bondage. I put athiests in the "religious" camp also. They have their own set of rules and restrictions in their thinking and lifestyle just like Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or "fill in the blank" do.
A relationship with a caring and loving God is not religious at all. Once you get past all the crap that Christians make it out to be, or NOT to be, it is the most joyous, peaceful, fulfilling life. God looks at the heart of a man or woman who knows and does what is right in His sight. Jesus was very angry at the religious leaders of that day for manipulating and perverting the relationship. I hate to wonder what he thinks of the religious leaders today.
*nostalgic reminder of Eric Paul Adelgren*
Jesus, who was not born of the offspring of a man, but by the Holy Spirit through a virgin, did live the perfect life. He was a spotless lamb - the perfect sacrifice for us all. I'm not perfect, but I have an advocate to the Father who sees me as His Son Jesus. It doesn't mean that I use that liberty to be an a-hole or a religious elitist. It means that I'm grateful and must be willing to lay down my life for others, just as Jesus did for me.
Many "Christians" I see in the U.S., especially here in Texas are in name only. They are some of the most miserable, frustrated people I know. But, when I stripped myself from all the religious crap and truly, whole-heartedly followed Jesus – there is no other joy or peace imaginable that could ever replace it.
so what's the big need for a virgin anyway? and if he's perfect and divine, why not just show up at 18?
so what again was the sacrifice? checking out of the theme hotel?
opiate high?
The other people you treat badly are suffering their 'karma'.
Have you ever been unable to treat someone badly despite trying? Thats because they didn't have the 'karma' to suffer your bad treatment.
Q: But why do universal forces always produce the same result?
How r things regulated so that birds fly in the air, fish live in water and man lives in this world with all his amazing potentials and capabilities?
Scientist: My science only tells me about what happens, it does not answer the question about why it happens.
Huxley said: "Any talk of this nature is utter nonsense. None of our branches of science--untill the present day--know what type of accident could produce such a great reality with all its wonder and beauty".
The idea that life happend as the result of an accident is like saying that you could get a dictionary as the result of an accidental explosiion in a printing press.
The true definintion of science seems to be Mortal mans attemps to discover what God already knows about His entire creation.
Notice to posters: you can discuss this news story without telling other people how to live their lives.
Also, eurowander- get a grip. Your treatise on the meaning of karma was only your second posting at the Local. You don't get to take that didactic tone with us. You must have been a highly annoying person in a past life.
That's why they're not revealing the gender Because a divine eternal being doesn't have a gender. Doesn't need one -who's it going to shag?
Wonder how long it takes for an eternity in heaven with religious nutters to turn into hell. Or maybe I'm wanted for a sunbeam, glad I took physics at school.
Afterall, everyone knows the land of the rising sun has obviously consistently suffered over the past 50 yrs for not doing so.
And by your own logic, if you have been annoyed, it is just your bad karma, so it is on you, and therefore unavoidable. Get a grip yourself.
You can all go pound sand.
What's that? Hold on, sorry, God was talking to me just then- He says that you should worry about yourselves and keep your traps shut. Lead by example, and all that, and- wait a minute- He says that he is sending a plague of - of- what's that word? My Hebrew is so rusty- I think He says that you are all getting a plague of sand lice in your crotches, but I might be off on the translation.
Good luck with the sand lice. Or maybe it was sand mice, but would that make sense? Sigh. The Big Guy can be pretty inscrutable at times.
Yes, by all means, enjoy your life. But, what if you get old, what if someone you love dies, what if a community you care suffers due to something beyond your control?
In short, what if there is need for help to survive some misfortune? Could some noble or religious ideas help you in your moment of need? Or, must you toughen up and simply survive, regardless how miserable you are!
I believe Religion helps me keep my sanity, when things go bad. When everything is OK, then everything is OK. It is only when things are not OK, that faith on something, anything, more important than I am, helps me thru the many cases when this happens.
But, what if you find no solace, no peace and no help in believing in something higher than yourself?
Well, if you have NO need to explain anything in the world by a faith on something bigger than yourself, then, of course, you need no God -you ARE God.
mike, you say that religion works for you. isn't that enough? why is there are need to condemn others who don't share your faith?
All atheists should try being Christian or Muslim for a week to see how it feels, you will be surprised.
I know plenty of nations that have nearly been wiped out because of religion though (not their own nation of course, religious nations tend to attack and kill other nations instead).
Personally I can't help but notice it's the more insecure and primitive cultures that tend to clutter up our rather small, resource limited planet planet with their superstitious, cave ready, greedy mouthed progeny...
To invoke your own dogma, I find something quite Satanic about any organisation that wishes to breed to the max, strip mine the planet and expect everyone else to be ok with this.
And, you call non-believers selfish?
Atheists, no consequences after death, so do what you want. Logical? Rational? Scientific? Fair?
God believers, SAME eternal hell for both, kill 1 or kill a million. God's justice? Fair?
Who will say that there is no God is the man or woman who did not have that experiences by observing his or her life and see how God is in it in each details.So the problem is in believing in Him or to not believe in Him , from this believing or not begin the solution for all your problems or the problems will continue.
God said : who will believe in me can move this montain ( his problems) from its place.
It is just a believing or not believing.So believe and you will see God`S work in your life or be blind forever and in the end you will get punished because you did not believe and that is God`S words not mine.
Are these comments by Bjorn going to spark mass Abba album burnings, like in the 60's with John Lennon? It's the proportionate and rational reaction to any criticism that amuses me about these bible-bashers. Although maybe they'd be right to burn the Abba albums...
However, I am befuddled (always wanted to use this word in a sentence) at how many times the same topic with the same arguments appear again and again. (That, and the Middle East / Islam / Jews / Nazis /Conspiracies)
As regards your befuddlement, it may well be self-induced since you seem to be arguing about the same topics time and again.
2. Thanks for helping me with my befuddlement.
Here's one of his best pieces on religion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2idVI73ais...re=channel_page
It certainly beats low grade sarcasm about clapped out singers and philosophers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYRJPYO_k44...PL&index=22
I think the definition is Schmaltz (rendered pig, chicken, or goose fat used for frying or as a spread on bread, especially in German and Polish cuisine.) Also - excessively sentimental or florid music or art.
It certainly beats a good verbal and respectable argument about God, religion (or atheism) and the good and bad effects of religion (or no religion).
Arguments re religion and atheism should be used and not some schmaltz music piece. It seems that any atheism or religion discussion here is more of an idiotic "religion = bad, wars, prehistoric mentality" or "Atheism = communism/nazi, devoid of ethics and vicious".
It seems that NO ONE is capable of finding good aspects and destructive aspects in either at the same time. It is more like a football match. That includes you. If Bjorn would like to join the discussion on the local he can (hey, it might be you for all I know). However, he chose to come out with silly statements and a musical piece. It is more interesting to find some critical thinking and self reflection than demagogic statements.
Who cares about ABBA, is that a religion?