Swedish men make the best husbands: study

I believe that this egalitarian society in sweden is not real. To me it seems as if it is a role reversal in sweden, as the women play the role as the more controling spouse where as the men just do as their told. Therefore they are not more equal in sweden just changes the role of what was thought to be the norm.

why then tell me why sweden is in the top three country in divorce per population and that is not counting the people that are not married and have kids and separate aslo WOW

Bocagill: the answer lies partly in Swedish equality.

Women in Sweden are less financially dependent than women in other countries on their husbands or partners. This means there are fewer obstacles to ending a failing marriage.

dwb5555: You obviously have no spent much time with Swedish couples...there's no particular desire to be controling because Swedes have an almost over zealous desire to compromise; it's a very strong norm...you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Heh...

This is why I am marrying a Swede, Aussie men make the worst husbands / partners apparently. I'd agree to that.

:-)

It depends what they mean by "best" husbands. Maybe they are the best to a woman concerned with equal division of household labour, but they're probably the worst for women who want to be romanced and treated with chivalry.

I do not find this surprising. I think it has to do with swedish culture. Women has always been regarded with very high regard by swedish men since viking times. Some historians even say that the viking raids was all about bringing home nice jewellery to their wives.

i live in sweden and i am married to a very beautiful swedish woman and aslo what is really sad is in my oldest sons fourth grade class of 24 students here in sweden only 12 kids parents live together - my middle son class in first grade has 22 kids only 14 are together and i dont know the total of kids in my youngest kid in day care but i know of a least 9 kids there who's mom and dads don't live together, So i do believe the UN report about sweden being in one highest divorce rate per population in the western world

"Best" is supposed to mean "weakest" in this context.

The reason for the high divorcerate in Sweden is because women have the same rights as men. In many other countries, women get beaten and misstreated every day and still stay married, in some cultures women can not even file for a divorce, they are regarded as cattle. Either by tradition, religion or upbringing. Women in Sweden have the choice, they can get work and support themselves. The divorce rates you see here are real and has nothing to do with Swedes being bad with relationships.

Hpunlimited: The UN report said divorce rate per population in the western world

How do you know they were married in the first place?

Western world...

Italy = Catholic

Spain = Catholic

Portugal = Catholic

Greece = Very traditional

Neatherlands = 50% Catholic

Poland = Catholic

USA = Social structure still in the 1800s

Ireland...

the list goes on...

That leaves the the Scandinavian countries.

Where are you comparing it to? Pakistan? Afganistan? Sudan?

Any country in Europe or the West permits a divorce petition from either party.

Cattle? Pull the udder one..

Cantona, the divorce rate is very high in the West in any country, and no not all Western countries have an easy way to divorce.

Who cares.. Marriage is a scam anyway.

hpunlimited

What have you been drinking today?

Iam an Australian male with a swedish wife and two boys living here in Sweden. In my wifes family every member has been serperated, some twice.

We have many friends wife swedish wifes and Australian Husbands but not the reverse. All these friends meet outside both countries and live in both Australia and Sweden. All couples are very differnt in there ways, but one common factor stated from the Swedish women is that they only live in Sweden for there family and not the country and would and do preffer to live elswhere.

Swedelecious

I have been in sweden for 3 years and know alot of people here. i can tell you that in sweden women rule and men hold their tail between their legs. Because if they don't they will be accused of being anti-female.

I have found overall sweden as a whole are very weak. They don't really like to give a strong opinion as that is against the rules here

There are lots of Swedish men with foreign wives/girlfriends.

Just because things may be a bit more equal in Sweden doesn't mean that Swedish men are weak. Surely, if a man needs to be in control of his woman all the time, be better than her, earn more money than her, to show his "masculinity" all the time that means HE is weak and has issues. A man who is sure of himself does not need to control anybody to feel good about himself. Thank God for good men, of which there are many like my Englishman and my Swedish dad.

Streja

Swedish men are weak not because they don't control their wife but because they allow their wife to control them. So what I have said is that in sweden the women take the lead role and men sit back and take it.

If we were talking about a contry where men role and women sit back and don't fight for the position I would have the same opinion about women.

Equal means each has the same amount of power but as we know that will never happen.

That's just not true though. It's your opinion and a rather silly one if I may add.

So are you on Saudi Arabian forums compalining about how Saudi women are weak?

Streja

Sorry but it is true, no person should let someone else rule them. Plain and simple. Everyone must have their own brain and use it. Again controlling a person is not good, allowing someone to control you is also not good.

That's not proof though.

Who are you to call my father weak!!!!!!!!!!! I demand an apology. What an insult!

My father was out there SAVING lives in storms while you were sucking your thumb!

Sweden has a very secular society that believes in nothing other than the freedom of doing what it likes.

A marriage is a contract like many others they sign in their life, so they certaily don't make too much of a problem of their high divorce rate.

At least it's now clear that a marriage needs a little more than equality to have any meaning.

I am absolutely in accord with Swedeleciuos and Streja (I am italian, man). I also think that is a futile exercise to talk about equality between husband and wife in Islamic countries. Some country dream freedom and equality of Scandinavian country!

I think your reasoning is a bit confusing. Would you please be more specific as to how Swedish women exercise power onto the opposite sex in their relationships?

donaswe, may I compliment your country simply by saying that I LOOOOOVE Italian food and loved my trip there.

Sorry just the mere mention of Italian makes me think of lovely food hehe.

donaswe, you know everytime a man feels threatened by equality it's because they are so weak and know that now the fact that they are male does not mean they can have special controlling powers over others. They feel they will lose their power to control and it's because in fact they are weak people.

Normal men are not threatened because they are sure of themselves already as persons.

Streja, now go to the kitchen and cook me a homemade tagliatelle!!! I demand you to do that right away! LOL

Now where is the apology?

Well, you know it would look as if he was a little bit weak just in case he did it. LOL

I'm actually going to cook for my man today. I am waiting for an sms from him so I know when to start!

I'm not sure you would like my pasta though hmmm. I'm not as bad at cooking as I have led you to believe but it just isn't as fun as it used to be. My grandmother once told me I'd make an excellent housewife even. lol She meant it as a compliment!

Honestly, attacking my father like that, and my father is of Viking descent. Bloody hell!

Streja

You seem to have a screw loose. Again just for you, NO ONE SHOULD CONTROL THE OTHER AND SHOW RESPECT TO EACH OTHER. Now where you got I was talking bad about your farther I have no idea. Maybe you should read what you wrote because you said your self if one needs to control thats is WEAK.

There are far too many Swedish women particularly professional ones who press the feminist button when they don't want to stay at home with their kids and persuade their spouses to stay at home with them. Then when the man has been at home for an extended period of time "he is not as interesting anymore" and TWIT syndrome sets in Teenage Women In Their Thirties and forget everything in pursuit of their long lost youth and their need to "rediscover themselves". Sorry bastards the lot of them. Hilarious to see them afterwards when the bubble has burst!

I don't now how scientific such a conclusion could really be. This "study" seems a little silly. Let's hope the taxpayers didn't have to pay for it.

Conboy, that I have actually never seen. Just because a Swedish woman was mean to you or your friend des not mean it's common.

I was once a victim of a sexual assault in London, does that mean all men are like that man?

Dwb555, you said Swedish men are weak. My father is Swedish.

Greg, it is silly. I agree that the conclusions are very silly lol.

It's really funny how a lot of men on this forum have become all annoyed by it though.If they are such great men then fine, but don't insult Swedish men just because you have an axe to grind.

Goddamn! You're so full of I can almost smell you through the computer...

"USA = Social structure still in the 1800s". As in old west frontier days? If studies show that Swedish men make the best husbands; then they do. Why do so many people seem to have a problem with that. At least their social structure is not preceived as "...still in the 1800s."

My Goodness...

How does a harmless article like this turn into something so horrible on here! It always happens.

Now let's look at the same article from the aussies point of view..

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25883589-401,00.html

AUSTRALIAN men make the worst husbands in the world because they loathe helping out with the housework, a British study claims.

No news to many women in AU but you don't hear us bitching about it! No, instead the men are having a moan.. like some of you blokes on this forum bagging out Swedish men.

Now stop being a typical moaning male that we all hate and get back into the kitchen where you belong!!

If by "best husband" you mean a maid then I can agree with the study.

There was a thing on here a few months ago about them having the biggest nobs too!

I think The Local has an agenda!

I agree with the first post. Swedish men don't have any real power in the relationship which leads them to be more emasculated by their women. They are soft. ;-) Djävla bofinkar.

"It's really funny how a lot of men on this forum have become all annoyed by it though"

I agree. I'm not annoyed at all, but amused. So does this mean that Canadian men are the most enlightened.:-)

So, "...when all is said and done..." Agnetha and Frida wore the pants in that super group.

All this study focuses on is whether men and women do the same chores. It takes a lot more than that to make a good husband and I'm sure Swedish men fall short in some other areas.

I think dwb5555 has trouble making friends in Sweden because obviously he's not around typical Swedes...and he's projecting his failure here :)

This thread is getting a bit silly. This study shouldn't be much of a surprise to folks whos actually familiar with Swedish culture. Like Magirus stated, Swedes are primarily concerned with personal freedom and I think it's a more realistic approach since it's fairly clear that life is long enough for people to force their growing differences on each other in a relationship.

bla bla bla... swedish men are afraid of woman... they are completely controlled by the woman... as we all say living in sweden... swedish men are like lamp shades.. they are just there...

Geeze

I better hope my swedish girlfriend dont read this or im screwed, i better get back into the kitchen..before i get fired

at least us africans (especially from the south :-)) are known for being the most well-endowed...lol

I say don't generalise. it all depends on the man, regardless of nationality, religion, race etc...as it does the woman...

Of course history shows us that many women, have/had it much harder and that men the world over - timbuktu to kathmandu - have been real a-holes towards them...which makes it easy to understand why women (i.e swedish and many more) want to hold on to their individuality/independant/free selves...Swedish men I suppose give their women freedom "to be all they can be" (even do the dishes etc.) and I suppose cool with that.

I treat my swede as equal (and she me, or at least pretends to :-)), but I always make sure she remembers who's the boss ;-)

Thread Title,...""Swedish men make the best husbands,they never answer back and do as they are told""

If never answering back and doing as told makes them good husbands then so be it.

Sound more to me like lapdogs that fetch the paper and slippers when ordered...except that lapdogs probably get a lot better treatment and respect.

What sort of husbands stand by while their wife gets a good seeing to from another guy under the hubbies own roof?

Only ever come across it in Sweden and more than once.

Then bacon and eggs on the table next morning,...unbelievable.

Why is it that to a Swedish woman a guy from another Western country is such a big status symbol,...seemingly even better than a Ferrari in the drive way?

Its all a mystery to me,....but one hell of a culture shock in the nicest possible way.

Jack Sprat,

what kind of parties do you go to...i've been to some nasty ass parties and have never heard of that going on

well never in sweden anyway

Only the best Ashlito,only the best.

Usually by special private invitation with special privileges,...say no more,...

A nods as good as a wink to a blind horse....

Also as an Aussie male back here in Oz with a Swedish wife....I stay home(well work from home) to look after my son....but i still hate doing the house work ....it gets done though....my wife works full time and studies....I think it is becoming a bit more common here as I see alot more dads out with prams during the day here either that or they're all on the dole....lol....but coming back to Australia I see that is still stuck in the past in gender roles well the perceiving of what mens and womens work is....plus I wouldn't let my wife in the kitchen a lifetime of Swedish cuisine has warped her taste buds...fish paste and liver paste for breakfast...hell no....but she says the same of my vegemite

It is interesting that both Swedish and Australian males are unhappy with this study and blame equality directly or indirectly. Why is it usually assumed that women are happy to do house chores, and if a man does them it is just because he is being forced (either by society or partner) to do them. In my opinion person who has less demanding job should try to do more house work, who cares whether it is a woman or man.

Swedish males think they have lost their superior position and Australian men think that women are demanding too much equality.

As far as divorce is concerned, the more easier you make for people to get divorce, more people would get divorced. So higher divorce rate isn't necessarily something bad, it might even indicate that they have much more freedom.

ha ha ha lets all get married to swedes lol

Judging by the few swedes I know, I'd agree with the study. If I'm ever in a need of partner/husband I know where to be heading :)

I think that different cultures have different views on what a man is and how he is supposed to be. It is always dangerous to generalize though. But sometimes you have to, otherwise you can never have a discussion about anything.

A man that is controlling and forces his wife to do things and then buys her flowers once a month to be "romantic", generally is a very small man inside, pathetic male genus. That is not a man! A real man is calm, collected and listens to his partner, helps out at home and protects his family. A real man has enough self confidence not to act "macho" at home thinking that a real man beats his wife, pee's in the sink, forces her to stay home.

I´ve been reading the posts here, and I can tell you that Swedish men ARE controlled by their girlfriends and wives. I´ve seen it and I see it every day. My sister treats her husband like a child, and just because she´s pregnant now, he has to run around, slaving for her all the time. It´s NOT their first child. I get so angry about it, but I can´t tell them how to live their life, but I know for sure that he finds her controlling, he gives her a couple of nasty comments behind her back, and is rolling his eyes when I see it, lol. But he never tells her, just because he knows that there´ll be an arguement...

That´s how it usually is in Swedish relationships or marriages. If they are both Swedish then. And I know because I´ve lived here my whole life...

I am an American woman in the process of obtaining my residency permit, and plan to move to Sweden next spring.

My boyfriend and I have an incredible relationship, based on mutual respect and compromise. When we live together, we take turns cooking, we share the housework, and if we should decide to have children in the future, we will share those responsibilities as well. We have our own friends and our own interests, and have our separate lives in addition to the one we share together. I would never presume to believe that I could control him in any way, and neither would he attempt to control me.

That's what it sounds to me like this article is suggesting. Not that any one party rules the other in a relationship, but that the concept of gender equality is more advanced in Sweden, so a more equal partnership, like mine, is possible.

Yeh,but maybe you not aware that lots of Swedish guys pea sitting down.

Better watch out,the gap is even narrower than you think!...

Not only can I pee standing up, but because my name has easy letters in it, I can write the four in snow, legibly. Sometimes it takes me two tries to complete my masterpiece.

I try to refrain from doing this in public, saving my artwork to be admired by woodland creatures.

Inlet

PS. With my experience of Swedish men, he is the most kind hearted, funny, loving, compassionate, and by far the most experienced, captivating, breathtaking lovers. With every man there is an upside and a downside. I will not mention the other side of the coin in this case.

Congratulations,guess that makes you some sort of artist,...LOL.

Sorry, only joking...

I have been living in Sweden for 27 years and I can tell you that there is no equality in Sweden. Swedish women, altough more beautiful on average than most other countries, are extremely dominant and want to be in complete control of their husbands so relationships with Swedish women are very un-equal as a man you have little to say in the relationship. Their attitide is basically: My way or the highway.

Also Swedish marriages have among the highest divorce rates in the world and a recent study showed that swedish couples have a 50% infidelity rate. So keep that in mind when considering a relationship with a swedish person.

What's wrong with the behaviour of Swedish kids? As far as sweeping generalisations go, I find kids in this country far, far, far, FAR better behaved than in London.

Can you spell e-m-a-s-c-u-l-a-t-i-o-n?

Hmm I guess its all relative and what you define as a good husband.

What does amuse me about the Swedish men is the lack of any practical skills, ie they struggle to change even a light bulb or put up a curtain rail :D

I renovated my own apartment, and people were like, omg your doing it yourself, how is that possible?

er ok...

If women want a 'man' that sits back doesnt talk or have an opinion or wears more makeup than they do and takes longer to get ready in a morning, then hey who are we to judge :)

Well I never expected to find any kids worse behaved than those in the UK, but I must admit Sweden has proved me wrong by quite a long way.

Never expected to find parents accepting less responsibility for their kids behaviour, than in the UK.

I've been proved wrong there also.

Not only my opinion, as I know quite a few Swedish school-teachers.

I wouldnt have their jobs for all the tea in China.

This thread is LOLage, by the way. Look at all the non-Swedish men suddenly feeling all insecure and having to Swede-bash to make themselves feel less undesirable. How's that working for you all?

Even funnier,...who has had to resort to the feminist card, again?

I had to check, post 21 was the first to play the "men are bashed by feminists" card. I don't think it was meant to be funny, although it is.

That's one of serveral reasons i am moving out, Swedish men are a disgrace to their own.

This country is so up.

Oh,please dont go,Likvid.

Us poor guys need all the support we can get in this evil feminist dominated society....

This thread is fun, and to answer about the children here in Sweden, lets just say I am happy I raised mine in the states where I could on occasion apply firm hand to buttocks. Examples that drive me mad here are to mention only two, throwing a fit in the store, or under my windows screaming at the top of their lungs during which I see the mom or dad so patiently waiting out said fit. Glad that part of my parenting is over. Bet they are too.

As far as peeing standing up, having said this I will tell how this came about. I grew up in Alaska, out in the bush. Closest neighbors might hear my mom shooting off three slugs in the air. Home study, no TV or radio but for the 'bushline' that played on thursdays and saturdays at seven, giving us messages from our friends in town. LOTS of down time between the hunting, fishing, gathering of forest treats and wood for winter. My trick was born of a dare from my brother. I think it was one of the double dog dare 'yas. I have never let him live it down. I won that one.

IW

I thought Inletwatcher was a gay man, am I way off?

I don't mind the idea of cutting the grass, although I don't own a lawnmower and the caretaker comes round and does it anyway, so there's no point in me doing it. If you're trying to get me to come round and do yours, bear in mind I do not work for free. Incidentally, why are you banging on about kids the whole time? You do realise not everyone has them, yes?

I'm all for being able to bash the crap out of a screaming brat, and not just your own either, but in all honesty I admire parents who can discipline their kids without beating them very much more.

now this is entertaining... lets put this in a different way... i have been living in sweden for 13 years...all of my friends here are american.. 7 to be exact.. we are all divorced... hmmm... why... because we speak our minds.. we have something to say except yes dear... and someone said here that swedish woman say it is my way or the highway... is so correct... these woman think they have something that woman in the rest of world dont have...

I think this is among the saddest things I've seen posted on this forum.

In order for Swedish men to leverage some authority at home; they have to leave their boring, svenson ball breaking wife and find themselves a Thai bride.

Why is mowing the lawn something only men should do? How often is it needed anyway? It's nt like you need to mow the lawn everyday but you do need to cook food and do the dishes (if you haven't got a dishwasher that is).

In the olden days women worked in the fields. It was heavy work and noone told them to go home and stay indoors.

I agree with you Inlet...absolutely. Intelligent response, thoughtful and compassionate. I suspect you are a good mother and had a decent relationship with your father.

Nope, single parent household. Nightmare.

Perhaps you had a firm, loving hand applied to your buttocks on occasion as well.

Oh yes I have had to pick my own switch off the tree, there was a razor strop at the door as well.

Just one more stupid question...can you pee standing up and out of a window? I can.

Does an incident with a squirt gun out a broken peep hole count? Not that I did, I'm just saying.

Although I have been known at times to wish I could do the guy dance in front of a full length mirror, am a woman.

I'm all for being able to bash the crap out of a screaming brat, and not just your own either, but in all honesty I admire parents who can discipline their kids without beating them very much more.

So I agree on dicipline, but there has to be a cooling off period before giving a spanking. I literally had the crap beat out of me as a child. I also horribley messed up this quote thingys...so forgive for this messy post.

IW

My parents never hit me and I am very disciplined and well mannered. You don't need to be hit with anything to behave. For me it was just that my parents were good at instaling respect. My mother was beaten as a child and swore to never do it to her kids. I admire her for that.

Wow! This topic got so many attentions from everyone. Everywhere have good and bad examples. So far my experiences have told me that Swedish men are good husbands. But I have also seen some really good caring, responsible English husbands. I am very happy with my own Swedes. People look at it from different angles.

Wow, you got more than one husband! Isnt that bigamy?

Swedish women when they can't browbeat you they try and emasculate you through children or a social group then they try and take over. When they fail they become unfaithful and have to renew themselves. TWITS Teenage Women In Their Thirties...

Don't men usually feel emasculated when they can't have children?

Spot on Paddy.

I feel contipated when I cant go to the toilet...

I think it depends how you define "the best". The Swedish men (all husbands of friends) that I've met did appear to share in the housework and childcare duties, at least while I was around. However, the equality seems to be taken very seriously as the attitude I've experienced and witnessed is more of "every man (and woman) for himself (herself). For instance, my husband is one to open doors for women, addresses older people or persons in authority as "Ma'am" or "Sir" and generally feels good about treating women with honor and courtesy. My Swedish friend visited me here in the U.S. this summer. She was shocked at how polite and respectful mos tmen & teenage boys were (stepping aside to allow us to enter a building they were leaving, saying please, thank you and excuse me, etc). Rude & domineering people are everywhere, both men & women.

I'm not a woman, and I'm almost certain I never will be, but I'd feel patronised if men treated me with so much reverence, merely for being a woman.

You just described what you, in your culture, consider "polite" and "respectful." These are not universal norms. This study assumes that equality makes the best marriage. Something not everyone will agree with. But you can't honestly tell me that treating someone a certain way simply because of their gender has anything to do with equality...

Yep.

[from the article]: "As a result, Swedish men are also more inclined to pitch in with household chores such as doing the laundry and cooking meals compared with their counterparts in less egalitarian societies."

Question: In addition, do Swedish wives also demand that their husbands breast-feed the babies?

.

Yeah, because men are biologically incapable of doing household chores. Must everyone use the same weak argument?

We can but only one at a time...

Women need to learn to ask us to do just one chore around the house and only when we have completed it, then give us the next one

Ehnnn Am tired of all this! I just want to say that Swedish Women are the BEST WOMEN in Europe!!! Get it right... best + best = Best Best :-)

They got no personalities and act and dress like teenies well above the 30ish...

I prefer women, not women with dicks.

Yeh sure,and I bet you got your wifes permission to say so.

Because Swedish men are weak, not all, but most of them.

Boys today are brought up like girls and when they are adults they are under domination by the women here, that's how sick this country has become.

Everything is so lame in Sweden, people stand in queue etc etc, no one stands out as everything is so "lagom" here.

Mostly the government has under many years conducted brainwashing of the Swedes into a certain thinking, the man/woman aspect has been more in focus than anything else on the political agenda and media hasn't done much to improve things either.

If you rule a country with a certain type of vision and idea of how you want people to live and act among each others it will eventually happen, it might be strong call it brainwashing, but taken 20-30 years of taking one small step in the direction will eventually turn people in their thinking without them knowing they have been changed.

Just look at North Korea, of course you can't compare but it's the same on going manupulation of the people in Sweden that is going on, those few like me and some others who can see this development are leaving the country.

It's not a very attractive country to live in when you sum up everything, being a entrepenuer in this country is like going nowhere as you all them time hit the wall by people which work against you, the so called socialist spirit where Jantelagen rule all peoples minds.

What this country needs is a total reformation, but that will never happen and i am too old to wait, the system is too complex in Sweden.

Sweden used to be a really good country, but it went downhill slowly in the early 90's and then it really accelerated in the beginning of the millenium.

Funny thing is how expat people love ABBA and such, that is so yesterday, the Sweden that existed during that period is gone since long time, it's just a memory of the good old times.

It's called a right's movement. A movement which was led by the people.

Wrong. Nice conspiracy theory, though. The state cannot force a change in public opinion without limiting freedom of expression, speech and opportunity. Sweden is hardly a theocracy and Swedes are aware of what's going on in the outside world. It's only convenient for you to see Swedes as "brainwashed" since you disagree with their views.

...

I see you've found the non-existent matrix. Perhaps the fact that "few" are noticing this "fact" should tell you something.

Jantelagen has existed since before the viking times. It's hardly a new development. It's a social norm that has existed and will presumably continue to exist in northern culture. If you disagree with this view it's no problem - the problem I have with you is that you believe your opinion is the only right one.

Heh. That's what I like to call an active imagination.

Sevilla obviously has too much time on her hands, but what i want to know is who took off her chain that reachs from the kitchen to the bedroom.

Some of you people on this thread sound like you are arguing over cars. You can't expect a marriage to last with out mutual respect, the kind of respect that comes from really liking someone. In most cases people mistake love with lust and a desire for ownership, the kind of ownership that becomes a statement of who you are. When I met my wife I lucked out because my initial reaction was pure lust, but by the time we married we were best friends and thats why we're still married after 32 years.

That is usually because Swedish women sees foreign men as exciting, but after a while they realize what utter pricks they are and dump them...

This comment thread has made me LOL so much that I had to register and say tack så mycket to you all. =P

An of course, this same study was reported yesterday a bit differently in the US press:

"Study: American Men Make the Best Husbands"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,536601,00.html

I wonder what the actual study says?

Here is the actual study: http://www.economics.ox.ac.uk/Research/wp/pdf/paper325.pdf

Fair enough. I presume this discussion paper was the one sent to the journal for peer review, and the version published in the journal will have incorporated recommendations from the reviewers. The journal paper is not publicly accessible though, or is it?

I need one!

Dammit, I'm moving back to Sweden!

You've really honed in on the reason why Sweden is just so goddamn awful right there. Queueing bastards.

Well are you entitled to an opinion telling me what's right and wrong about this country being a foreigner? No.

I would take you seriously if you was born here, but you are not, so your view on things are totally wrong except the first part above but you are getting there slowly.

It's funny how some people think that reasoning with your wife is equivalent to "being controlled".

Sweden's high divorce rates doesn't mean that Swedish marriages are worse. It can mean that women are more fit to make it on their own if the marriage sucks; that divorce has high acceptance in Swedish culture; that men are more willing to share post-divorce responsibilites etc.

Anyway, from having read this article, I find it difficult to agree with the assertion "Swedish men make the best husbands". Words like "best" and "good" and relative to values and preferences in marriage. making nearly impossible to prove that "husbands from country X make the best husbands"

Likvid, Kaethar är svensk you silly billy!

The last post is funny. If western mena re becoming more feminine and women are becoming more masculine then surely the result would be the same?

Hilarious!

I think the fact is that as time goes on, people are getting more in touch with what they feel like, rather than what society/religion/politics think they should feel like... hence the ridiculousness of that statement... people aren't losing/gaining their masculinity/femininity; rather they are gaining their individuality and are more likely to call their significant other out on their bullshit, especially if said bullshit is based on historically unequal social relations.

Even worse

As they say outside Sweden, Die Dumme Schweden....

Really? I have met lots of Germans and stayed in their house and they love Sweden and Swedes. Very friendly people those Germans.

It must be the Austrians who say it then, and they lock their daughters in cellars so who cares what they think.

LOL!

Best comment ever!

Well I think it's all individual anyway who make the best husbands.

I think I may have shut him up for a while. I'm eagerly awaiting the next entry from Likvit.

Streja I hope you do realise that your last comment regarding Likvit could be misconstrued to the point where it may be interpreted as a typical TWIT'sh Freudian slip.

Are you my evil twin? Foreigners have no right demanding change but they have every right to an opinion, surely?

Clearly.

You still don't get it...

And first you claim all Swedes are brainwashed and have no clue and now you're blaming my ignorance on my perceived lack of Swedishness. Who made you the source of all knowledge?

This thread is very fun!

By the way, I'm married to a Swede. I would not dare say Swedish men make the best husbands, but MY Swede does (FOR ME). :) And, in comparison with other dates I had before meeting him, he made the best boyfriend.

Yes, I guess that's what they call you... Twat...

This does not surprise me knowing how wonderful the Swedish men are. I think it is a dream for any modern woman. I'm scared of getting into a patriarchial marriage or relationship, it is really scary to be dominated by the guy and catering to his wishes. A lot of guys expect you to have a full time job, contribute to the bills and expenses, and yet at the same time, they feel the housework and childrearing is all just the woman's responsibility. That is extremely unfair and seems lika a trap to me.

Thank Odin for the Swedish guys. They are so considerate, so respectful towards the lady. They do take up some of the double burden of a modern life which entails both work and family. The beta male rules! Guys like that will always be loved and appreciated by us, modern women.

Swedish men are like pussies, not all of them but most...

Damn i hate Swedes and their self-righteous attitude.

What country could be worse? even Ukraina is better to live in.

You will see that it doesn't matter; nobody will like you wherever you live...

Hmmm, Swedish men make the best husbands???.

From what I have witnessed these past 7 years they seem to have been morphed into weak, spineless and totally dominated little servants.

Yep! sorry Swedish women but you are all completely ott when it comes to this "equality, independance, we can do just as much as men can" attitude.

Don't get me wrong, being a woman I am all for equality etc, but not at the expense of others. I watched a man bless him, stand up and offer this woman a seat on the very crowded bus the other morning and she gave him a look of complete disgust for doing so. She remarked, "If I wanted to sit down I would have asked you to move" and promptly turned her back on the guy!!

It is no wonder that men here are seen to be so wonderful as they get up in the mornings, get the children ready for dagis, either make breakfast or take the children direct to dagis for breakfast (God forbid you have to spend more time with your children than necessary eh working women..) rush to work, spend a busy day and then rush home to pick up the children from dagis, cook their dinner and no doubt get them ready for bed as well.

Taking the micky?? Nope. This is how one of my friends lives and he says that he is not the only one, only most keep schtum about it!

What does his wife do? Oh, well, because she is a woman and supposed to fight for equality at every turn she has to strive to have a) job husband c) kids, d)social life so she couldn't possibly be required or expected to do the most basic of things like running a household or God forbid, putting her husband, children or familys needs before hers.

Swedish men make the best husbands - they wouldn't dare do anything else!

Ah, I see. Troll detected. =)

Not all women are for equality. Some women like being treated as if they're special. Wouldn't you say, "lady"?

Makes perfect sense. I would have done the same (albeit in a less rude manner). Was she pregnant? Disabled? Why would she need the seat more than him? Are women weak and in need of special treatment?

The same can be said for working men...

Most men strive for the same thing you know (job, lovelife, kids, social life). Why are men capable of having everything whilst women aren't?

So you agree that they make the best husbands, but you're against it. So presumably you believe child-rearing and house-hold chores should be a woman's work. But guess what? The men aren't being forced.

Great article -- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/5978268/Have-you-turned-your-man-into-a-hermaphrodite.html

My partner is half Swedish, I understand why he's so good now!

Ouch!

UK lady, how is it done "at the expense of others" or the other half? If a guy lives in the same household with the woman - is that not half his household and should he not participate in cleaning it up? If he has a child with a woman - is that not half his child and should he not take up half of the responsibilities and rights while bringing up the child? It is not done at anybody's expense, it is shared equally like it is done in a fair society. Or do you prefer the woman having the double burden? That is in fact at the expense of the other.

The people who are so obsessed with making sure that men and women do the exact same work equally, behave in the exact same ways, do everything the same... I just don't get it. For those women that are straight and have a boyfriend/husband... what is it you see in them? You don't want them to behave in a different way from you, to do anything different from you, you don't want them to be chivalrous or protective or gentlemanlike. So is it only the difference in waterworks that makes you physically attracted to them? It seems to me that alot of women on this forum basically want to date a woman with a penis. I don't understand how you can be sexually attracted to a man who behaves exactly the same as a woman. Now I am not into "macho" men at all, but I want a man with some masculine qualities other than just a penis! I don't get it, please explain it to me, how do you see your boyfriends? Doesn't a part of you ever wish to be treated in a bit more of a romantic way?

And I thought this had some interesting comments:

http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2009/07...women-want.html

The men are already masculine by the virtue that they are a man. They have the male body and that makes them attractive. Just because they share the gender roles, doesn't make them less physically/sexually attractive (btw, seems that Swedish men are in a good shape and many are naturally handsome). Besides, there are many ways how masculinity can be defined. Men shouldn't be forced into a limited role. Yes, Nordic men are reserved but I don't think other Western men are more romantic. You can be romantic without buying/getting gifts. The best gift would be him being there for the kids and helping alleviate some of the double burden, as well as him taking care of his own looks.

If some women like the old school guy, that's their choice. But other women will have other choices. I prefer the New man everyday to a guy who gives me special treatment once in a while but still expects me to do all the 'women's' work all by myself on a daily basis.

That'll work on here. Expect a back-lash from a posse (that's posse) of enraged (not to be confused with deranged) females.

Steja,won't log on until tomorrow!

*probably be worth the wait!*

@IamUnique

Don't women have jobs, a century ago men were supposed to provide all money. There are few physical differences which can't be overcome but women don't have any special ability that makes them more suited to do house work (cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc). Men can do it equally well.

No one is saying men have to do half of the house work, what most people are saying is that they should be willing to participate. The person (whether male or female) with less demanding job should do more house work. Do you think that demanding this is unreasonable ?

@UKLady

The incidence that you mentioned, if woman replied so harshly then she was extremely rude, she should have refused his offer politely. Interesting question would be why did he offer her his seat ? if she looked tired, was old, etc then it is acceptable but if she is a healthy young woman then it was wrong of him to offer his seat.

This thread is so hilarious, You Swedes are so 70's. In the states that whole militant feminest attitude went out with ABBA. I love the difference in the sexes and so does my wife. We share everything around our house I changed my kids diapers wash clothes and because I'm a better cook than my wife I do most of the cooking. I think your marriages fail so miserably because the women are searching for real men and the men are searching for real women.

Let the bashing begin.

I see. So when you do this it's fine but if Swedes do it it's because of militant feminism.

Without clear gender roles people don't define themselves through trivial means. Does doing house-work really define you as a person? This is the type of attitude I want to get away from. Men and women aren't the same, but we also don't need to be defined by archaic social constructs. I prefer being defined as an individual. How couples split up chores, etc, depends entirely on the couple. It doesn't have to be a social standard that everyone has to live up to. All women are not the same just like all men are not the same.

P.S. I am attracted physically to a man and to his individual characteristics. The thought of a man who'll fix the car, paint the house, and take me out to dinner does nothing for me. Some women like it, but some don't.

Paternity Leave in Sweden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz5FJkqWhbQ

It is not like the numbers differ that much. Most of Western Europe + USA has 50-60 divorces per 100 marriages, including Sweden.

@IamUnique

You must be very naive to think that women demand everything to be exactly same for both sexes.

How do a man contribute more than a woman, especially when both work same hours and woman has to do most house chores (as in a world of your liking) ?

Can you explain how following general statement is giving women too much power and why do you disagree with it.

"The person (whether male or female) with less demanding job should do more house work."

Why? This is just the kind of brainwashed thinking that is going to destroy sweden sooner or later. I am not saying men must feel obliged to offer their seats to healthy women, but why is it wrong if one chooses to do so? It was not wrong, it was polite and thoughtful. The destruction of basic manners like that probably has something to do with the way society is becoming more violent and anti-social.

What Lady said reminded me of an incident when I was at college. All of the boys at the college (this was in the UK) were very polite and always opened doors for all of the female students. We all thought it was very charming and nice of them. Except one new student came along one day, a girl from Sweden. A poor young lad held a door open for her and she hit him in the face and started screaming at him about how she's capable of opening doors for herself! Women like that are ruining men for the rest of us.

I often wonder if the way women are becoming more masculine and men more feminine has something to do with the increasing levels of hormones in our water and food that get there from birth control, animal supplementation, etc.

But say you are on a date for example. You don't mind that the man does nothing traditionally masculine for you, (eg open the door for you, or offer you a seat or pick up the first check)? If a man did absolutely nothing on a date to make me feel that he noticed and appreciated my femininity, I wouldn't feel like I was on a date at all, I'd feel like I was just hanging out with a friend. I'm not saying men should be able to fix the car or paint the house or whatever, but I seriously wonder how any woman can not want the man to do something, anything, to make her feel appreciated as a woman, not just as a capable do-it-all equal person. I personally know I'm capable of doing stuff for myself, I don't need a man to re-affirm that for me by treating me no differently than he'd treat another man. I wonder if the hard-core feminists are so insistent on being treated this way because secretly inside they feel that maybe they're really not up to the job?

http://www.newswithviews.com/conspiracy/conspiracy7.htm

@Janie

Have you ever offered your seat to a young, healthy male ?

if your answer is "NO" then don't men deserve to be treated nicely ?

I said it was wrong (i agree it was a nice gesture but reasons behind it were most likely wrong) if he offered his seat only because she was a woman.

Aren't women who expect similar gestures brain washed into thinking that this should be a norm. In a neutral world it would be nice surprise gesture not something that you would be expecting.

dwb5555 i think your comments are perfectly put and 100% spot on.i have spent time in sw....eden and i have being going out with a swedish girl for 3 years now but i'm begining to see the light.

see i come from a land where we ....apparently treat women like cattle(NOT), so my opinions may be completely outrageous to you girls out there, so forgive my ignorance...but here goes. ...it would apear to me that swedish men need to drop the shopping bags,...tear off the guggi belts ...rip down their proud bijon borg undies ....and give you women folk a good seeing to....i mean an earth shattering session. And when your done doing that....take 5 and then do it again and roar while yee or at it...in fact do a good bit of roaring cos for the love of god yee swedish guys can be fierce quiet.....make sure it's so good she knows your the man ...Not the boy shes comfortable with.

when you do this your woman knows shes everthing ....she is assured in herself as a woman/mother....but a man does't need a mother....so make babies with your beautiful woman...and be a MAN, fix a car, get your hands dirty it's ok sometimes...jee i wonder what gay men think when they come to sweden it must be slightly difficult to weed the straight from the adventurous on a night out?

there that's my stupid man opinion ....everything a couple do after this will be perfectly equal..and we won't need a study to tells us.

Because of the motive behind it. I wouldn't offer my seat to a person unless they're old/disabled/pregnant/etc or if I knew them. You try offering your seat to a random man on a train (outside of Sweden) and see his reaction. I'll bet 9 times out of 10 he'll take offense. I personally find such an action extremely patronising.

Manners? When do you ever see people playing musical chairs on the underground anywhere in the world? If a train is crowded some people have to stand, as simple as that.

First, this story does not sound believable (because of the hitting and screaming). But, that aside, what we have here is a culture clash. You think she was rude and she thought they were rude. That's it.

It's definitely preferred if he does not.

What exactly does that mean? Showed he "appreciated your femininity?"

On a different route - what's your view of homosexuals? Gay men have friends and boyfriends. They distinguish between them somehow, surely? How does your view of femininity and masculinity fit into this?

Because some people don't want to be "appreciated as women" but want to be appreciated as individuals who happen to be women? There's a reason why there's a cliche in movies of friends falling in love. A friend truly is the perfect match. You seem to be under the impression that weak gender rules deprive a person of their womanhood or manhood? I couldn't disagree more. All natural differences are still there. It's the socially constructed differences which are muddled.

Heh. Wrong. Men are not "physically superior" to women. But it's a popular myth to be sure. Because of greater testosterone men are on average physically stronger than women whilst women have on average greater muscle endurance than men. So it pretty much evens out.

What I'm saying is the sharing is sincere, if my wife thought I was living a lie she would probably screw some guy while I was doing the dishes. The militant feminism thing ended along time ago, I can hold a door open for some one with out being sneered at because its the polite thing to do. I do that for men and women both and all I get is a polite thank you. I get the impression that you Swedes are very impolite.

Your totally right, what I was refering to was on a previous post one person I don't remember who claimed that in Sweden so many get divorced because woman have it so well. Gee how romantic. I have found that amongst our friends that have been married as long as my wife and I there has been a definate give and take that is equal, on this thread it seems one sided, every thing for the high maintenance blond, no wonder the vikings sailed to Ireland for women.

It's not a "polite thing to do" universally. Only in some cultures.

Yes, because you're biased. You're judging from your own cultural norms.

And being forced to stay in a marriage because you have no other options is romantic?

The Vikings set the precedent for modern Scandinavians. Unlike their Anglo counter-parts the Vikings kept very good hygiene and were reportedly very popular among the local women. Some things never change.

^^ It's for the baby's sake, not hers. And also, I am against execution.

Goodbye troll.

wimpish ? what do that word mean ?

@IamUnique

can you describe the role of males and females in a "more fairer and equal society" ?

@Janie

"A woman is a vehicle by nature. She is waiting for a man’s call. She wants to be used by the man she loves for a higher purpose. One such purpose is to create a healthy happy family. A man, therefore, should have a clear idea of what he wants, and the role he wants a woman to play. Then he finds a wife who meets HIS criteria."

Do you really agree with above statement quoted from link you posted ? If you are really waiting for a man to come and impregnate you, good for you, just don't expect others to wait with you. You can also not report domestic violence if it is just a power struggle (as mentioned in the link) in which your leader (husband) is trying to show you that he is in control.

Yeah, personally I think the rot set in when women started wearing trousers. You can't expect a young boy to turn out anything but homosexual if he sees trousered women legs everywhere he goes.

This thread is getting more hilarious by the day, let it never die. Firstly for all the non-Swedish, non-gay men who you'd think aren't bothered whether Swedish men make good husbands or not on account of them not being in the market for husbands anyway, and secondly because when you're not looking desperately insecure by Swede-abusing, you're claiming your greatest offering to a woman is your capability to hold the bloody door open. Well, great, it's nice when someone (male or female) does that, but I still think a lifetime of cleaning up after yourself is worth a bit more.

Because of the motive behind it. I wouldn't offer my seat to a person unless they're old/disabled/pregnant/etc or if I knew them. You try offering your seat to a random man on a train (outside of Sweden) and see his reaction. I'll bet 9 times out of 10 he'll take offense. I personally find such an action extremely patronising.

The motive behind it is obviously, "this person might like a seat. I'd like to make them happy, so I'll offer mine." What's wrong with that?

Manners? When do you ever see people playing musical chairs on the underground anywhere in the world? If a train is crowded some people have to stand, as simple as that.

Men have offered me their seats on the LOndon underground and busses. I was very grateful. Yes if there aren't enough seats some people have to stand, but why does that make it wrong for a man to be chivalrous? In general, women are physically weaker than men, I'm sorry if that thinking doesn't fit into the new feminist world order but it's a fact. I've offered my seat to old people, both male and female, and someone on crutches, because it was polite and they needed it more than me. For most men, it's less effort to stand for a long time and some of them, thankfully, still like to be polite. If someone offers you a seat and you don't want it you can always politely decline but the current trend for becoming hysterical about such matters is ruining men for the rest of us.

First, this story does not sound believable (because of the hitting and screaming). But, that aside, what we have here is a culture clash. You think she was rude and she thought they were rude. That's it.

Well, it's true and she thought a polite gesture was rude because she had been brought up in a crazy, hysterical country. Also, she was in the UK so should have made some effort to adapt to UK norms.



What exactly does that mean? Showed he "appreciated your femininity?"

On a different route - what's your view of homosexuals? Gay men have friends and boyfriends. They distinguish between them somehow, surely? How does your view of femininity and masculinity fit into this?

Since I am not gay, I do not know the homosexual mindset and have absolutely no idea what they are thinking or how they run their relationships.

Because some people don't want to be "appreciated as women" but want to be appreciated as individuals who happen to be women? There's a reason why there's a cliche in movies of friends falling in love. A friend truly is the perfect match. You seem to be under the impression that weak gender rules deprive a person of their womanhood or manhood? I couldn't disagree more. All natural differences are still there. It's the socially constructed differences which are muddled.

But if you fall for someone and they just "happen" to be of the opposite sex, how can you call yourself straight? You must be bisexual, so why don't you ever fall for someone who just "happens" to be a woman?

Heh. Wrong. Men are not "physically superior" to women. But it's a popular myth to be sure. Because of greater testosterone men are on average physically stronger than women whilst women have on average greater muscle endurance than men. So it pretty much evens out.

Where do you get this idea from? I used to be a personal trainer, training both male and female bodybuilders, and women are both physically weaker and have nowhere near the muscular endurance of men.

This will be my last post in this thread because it's just going round in circles. But I just wanted to say one more thing. As always with topics about Sweden, the thread becomes one about feminism (since everyone in Sweden is so obsessed with this.) Men holding doors open is patronising, blah blah. But can't you see this is sympromatic of a wider problem? Look, no-one is disputing that the basic tenets of feminism were a good thing. Women get to vote, work and determine their own lives. If their husband abuses them, they don't have to stay in the marriage. If they don't want to marry, so be it. OK that's all great and fair enough, but it keeps going further and further, totally eradicating all differences between the sexes and denying there are any differences at all. Legislating so that women and men are both back in the workplace while their newborn babies are dumped in daycare, then left on the computer all day when they're older while their parents are at work. Men and women not bothering to work out differences in their marriages but just divorcing because they can't be bothered any more, so now the child comes from a broken home. This extreme feminism is completely selfish, everything the woman wants she gets and to hell with whether it adversely affects her children or not. "I want a child so I will have one, now I want to be at the top of my career so little Sven can bugger off to dagis, now I am tired of my wimpy husband and want a real man, so I'll divorce him and get a real man instead."

Feminists not only fall for the myth of having it all, but they want everything right now and to hell with everyone else. It really is a very selfish mindset and is obviously causing alot of confusion and misery amongst the kids.

I'm sure the feminists will start trying to refute this but it's all borne out by statistics and evident in people's behaviour. I'm not going to say anything more in this thread because there's nothing more to say.

Yeah that is true. They got a huge chip on their shoulders so to compensate they think they (women) are the brightest and superior beings to all men. And the funny part is that their poor excuse of men agree with them. I have read several articles from swedish men claiming how inferior they are to women, it is basically female-chauvism and nothing like equality. It is really pathetic to behold.

Only makes perfect sense to crazed lunatic feminist as yourself. He was being polite and a gentlemen, it has nothing to do with giving special treatment because he thinks she is weak. If you weren't so indoctrined by the swedish media and goverment you would have realised that.

And I just want to say that for a record that femenists, like the one fighting for equality for opressed women in countries like Sudan, are heroes. But the femenists in Sweden is a whole different kind of animals. They have a warped sense of reality and make up so to hunger their own sick need for hate mongering of men.

Janie, I think men are also responsible if a marriage or relationship ends, not just the "feminist" woman.

Shawn, most anti-feminist rants on this thread have been about how women are weaker by nature, so if feminists say that thy are worth just as much as men that means they are saying women are superior? Your reasoning is flawed.

Kaethar has bee spot on in this thread.

I don't have a Swedish husband, but I think I know more about them than you do as I have grown up here. A lot of them actually don't share the chores 50-50, but I'd say most younger guys re better at it than older men. The same is probably true in the UK.

Feminism is about equality and in comparison to Janie, who thinks wanting equality right now is a bad thing, I don't really think it's fair that I should have to wait till after I'm dead to be treated as an individual. My femininiy has nothing to do with what a man does on a date, which is very American by the way, we don't have dates in the same way in Sweden, it is about my inner self. I'm a woman, atleast I was last time I checked. I would still be a woman even if I was on a desert island. Janie, on the other hand would turn male apparently as there would be no men around. She would have no purpose on the island and would not be able to do anything as she would be waiting for a man to turn up.

I would be very lonely though and would sart working on a boat straight away.

Gay women are not all butch by the way. They can be feminine. If they assign themselves old gender roles it's only because they live in society too.

I am continuously amazed how many people appear totally unable to differentiate between the words "woman" and "mother."

will the self-congratulations never end !

Women are physically weaker than men, that is a simple fact and holds true for many if not all mammals. One of the fact which some swedish femenists, living in their own little worlds, cannot accept.

However, being physically stronger does in no way imply how much "worth" you have. The two concepts are completely unrelated. Specially in humans where it is our mind and social abilities that puts us above animals and not physical strength which many animals are superior to us in.

I think we've got slightly sidetracked here from the real issue. The article claims Norn Irish men are 3rd on the list! If we shared the chores etc we would definitely be top. We're just great lovers, when we're sober!

Well I am going to have to make one more post now because Streja has totally misconstrued what I said.

Janie, I think men are also responsible if a marriage or relationship ends, not just the "feminist" woman.

Men are often responsible for marriage breakdown. But it seems in Sweden many marriages end for no good reason, to the detriment of the children, just because the woman doesn't want to do it any more, due to boredom or whatever. (she should have thought of that before making a lifetime commitment to both marriage and child.) And sweden makes it too easy for women to just flit in and out of the responsibilities they have taken on.

Shawn, most anti-feminist rants on this thread have been about how women are weaker by nature, so if feminists say that thy are worth just as much as men that means they are saying women are superior? Your reasoning is flawed.

The posts have been about how women are generally physically weaker than men, no-one has said women are intrinsically less valuable than men.

Feminism is about equality and in comparison to Janie, who thinks wanting equality right now is a bad thing, I don't really think it's fair that I should have to wait till after I'm dead to be treated as an individual.

I didn't say it's wrong for a woman to want to be treated as an equal. I very clearly said it's wrong for a woman to want to have her own way all the time when it is adversely affecting others who have no say in the situation.

My femininiy has nothing to do with what a man does on a date, which is very American by the way, we don't have dates in the same way in Sweden, it is about my inner self. I'm a woman, atleast I was last time I checked. I would still be a woman even if I was on a desert island. Janie, on the other hand would turn male apparently as there would be no men around. She would have no purpose on the island and would not be able to do anything as she would be waiting for a man to turn up.

You and I have a different idea of what makes a man or woman. You seem to imply that it's just one's genitals that make a difference whereas I think it's more than that (which it is since it's scientifically proven that men and women's very brains work in different ways.) You misunderstand what I say. I feel female whether there's a man around or not. I feel so female that I can completely notice and appreciate the difference in males. I do feel equal to men, but unlike you I do not feel the same as a man. There's a big difference.

double post

Janie: You are a voice of reason and I would dare to say a true femenist. Someone who wants equality between the sexes but understanding that women and men are different and that fact does not prevent them from being equal.

Hats of for you

Your argument is the weak one. As with the breastfeeding argument men cannot physically get pregnant, so how is this making an exception?

You're probably playing devil's advocate here but if you're not it's rather a naive world view. Why not call all blacks negros? Because of how it will come across. If you study ethics you learn the difference between motive-led-ethics and consequence-ethics. Even if you do have perfectly fine motives an action can still be inappropriate according to consequence ethics. According to consequence ethics an action is only morally good if it has a good consequence. And if people take offense to your action it is not a morally good action. Keep in mind that when it comes to motive most people are not being purposefully patronising - it's something subconscious.

So have I...

Odd then how women have on average greater muscle endurance than men. A man should theoretically be able to lift more whilst a woman should be able to stand longer on a train. But male-female socially constructed roles have little to do with science.

Who says I get hysterical? o.o

It's so great when people can accept cultural differences and norms.

I thought she was a student?

Well, obviously they do not have male and female gender roles. Like everyone they have masculine and feminine traits and one partner usually shows more masculine traits than the other. In some heterosexual couples the woman shows more masculine traits and the men the more feminine. And what's the problem with this if they're a happy couple? Gender-roles are outdated because not everyone fits into them. It was more of an ideal idea of how a couple should be.

Scientists believe pheromones play a part. I can tell a man from a woman, thanks. I also don't have good "chemistry" with all men and some men aren't suited to be romantic partners but instead only friends.

Since when do body builders need muscular endurance? You need to look at long-distance runners and people who use their muscles under a long period of activity. Bodybuilding only requires spurts of brute strength. It's a different kind of physical strength and it's wrong to say women are physically inferior to men.

What are your thoughts on sharia law? This conversation reminds me of the countless ones I have with muslim women living under sharia. They also claim men and women are different and should therefore have different roles. In sharia a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's since women are seen as more emotional by nature and men more rational. And there's some biological truth to this but do you agree with the law? In practice it means that if a crime is committed a man's word is worth more than a woman's. Is this equality to you?

I have no problem with women wanting to live under sharia but equality has nothing to do with it. Like I've said, this study assumes equality makes the best marriage.

Women must lose this muscle endurance in middle-age and replace it with electric speed, when spotting a free seat on a packed train or bus!

I think that many people need to focus on their own lives and relationships rather than judging others. There are both good and bad women and men in every society.

It is ridiculous to attack Swedish men because you think they are not 'masculine' enough. Or Swedish women because they aren't 'feminine' enough. If you don't like them, don't date them or better still move to another country and stop your whinging.

To mbe- Who has been here for 13 years, has only 7 male friends of which all are American. Try spending time with more Swedes and you will how they really are, not just your impression of them as an outsider.

Both sexes make commitment when marrying or having children. I don't think that most women end marriages more lightly compared to men, after all single parent (more likely to be a woman) who is taking care of child has a much more harder life than the parent who is free after the marriage or domestic partnership fails.

I think that you give much more priority to your family than an average woman which is your choice and you might work harder to save a marriage when you don't like or get bored of your partner. But to say that women should sacrifice some of their aspirations and compromise for family isn't right (if anyone wants to, she can). If you have any relevant statistics that mention that women are more likely to end marriage than men, i would like to know.

The brain of males and females differ slightly (maybe due to evolution, hormones, environment, etc). There are some areas in which male brain is better (mathematics, visualize objects in 3D) and some areas in which female brain is better (language, artistic expressiveness, carrying out detailed tasks) but difference isn't so big or UNIVERSAL that would justify restricting or encouraging what they can do. Keep in mind that there are significant differences in brains of people of different race and region. Most of the restrictions that are put on sexes (both men and women) have more to do with culture than anything else.

What on earth has our discussion got to do with sharia law? I am not that knowledgeable about Sharia law but I do know that it is stated there that men words weigh more than a womens but that has absolutely nothing to do with what I, and Janie, was saying. Rather it is a typical strawnman argument to make it appear that what we are saying is somehow related to Sharia law, where in fact there is no such relation, at all.

Janie can speak for herself but all I am saying is that males and females are different (generally speaking). Beside physical differences such as difference in body mass there are also mental differences. Such as views on relationsship. For example it is said that females fall in love based on several criterias where their eyes is not the big one (i.e. the males looks) where as in males the looks of a female is far more important.

That may be because of culture, evolution, who knows. But there are statistical proven facts that males and females are different. However it is YOU who are insinuating that the difference automatically leads to inequality and as such we must refuse to acknowledge that there are differences. Which is complete nonsense and you bringing up Sharia law, as some kind of straw man argument, will not fool anyone.

Men and women are different but that does not mean they cannot be seen as equal members of society with equal rights.

Even if you do have perfectly fine motives an action can still be inappropriate according to consequence ethics. According to consequence ethics an action is only morally good if it has a good consequence. And if people take offense to your action it is not a morally good action. Keep in mind that when it comes to motive most people are not being purposefully patronising - it's something subconscious.

So it's rude for a man to offer his seat just because the woman in question may turn out to be one who thinks it's rude? And if they are not being purposefully patronising as you say, why do the women react so rudely and aggressively in some situations?

Odd then how women have on average greater muscle endurance than men. A man should theoretically be able to lift more whilst a woman should be able to stand longer on a train. But male-female socially constructed roles have little to do with science.

Again, I'd like to know where you get the info that women have greater muscular endurance than men.

Who says I get hysterical? o.o

Your responses to inoffensive behaviour.

I thought she was a student?

Yes a Swedish student studying in the UK.

In some heterosexual couples the woman shows more masculine traits and the men the more feminine. And what's the problem with this if they're a happy couple? Gender-roles are outdated because not everyone fits into them. It was more of an ideal idea of how a couple should be.

Nothing is wrong in the scenario you describe here. The problem in Sweden seems to be that the women want to do everything the same as a man, while wanting everything else as well - eg - wantes the kids but doesn't want to sacrifice a year or 2 of her career to take care of them while they are very young. And sure, no problem if the man wants to do that instead. But when neither want to, it's just plain selfish.

Scientists believe pheromones play a part. I can tell a man from a woman, thanks. I also don't have good "chemistry" with all men and some men aren't suited to be romantic partners but instead only friends.

So nature obviously intends there to be differences. And if men and women look different, smell different, what makes you think nature doesn't want them to act differently? Just look around the animal kingdom, males and females are not supposed to be the same.

Since when do body builders need muscular endurance? You need to look at long-distance runners and people who use their muscles under a long period of activity. Bodybuilding only requires spurts of brute strength. It's a different kind of physical strength and it's wrong to say women are physically inferior to men.[/quote]You don't seem to know much about bodybuilding. There are many difefrent types, eg power building which concentrates only on the size of the muscles, strength training which obviously concentrates on how strong the muscles are and not the size, and endurance training, which is another form that not surprisingly concentrates on the muscles endurance abilities. When you say women have more muscular endurance than men, where do you get this information from? Do they maybe mean that women have more endurance relative to their size? If so, men still have more endurance since they tend to be bigger. I also don't recall saying women are physically inferior to men, just physically not as strong, which in general is patently true.

Both sexes make commitment when marrying or having children. I don't think that most women end marriages more lightly compared to men, after all single parent (more likely to be a woman) who is taking care of child has a much more harder life than the parent who is free after the marriage or domestic partnership fails.

I agree, both sexes are equally responsible for the commitment they make and I never said women take their responsibilities more lightly. I have been talking about women, not men, because the latter part of this thread has been talking about women. Obviously men are still responsible for the commitments they make and just as likely not to live up to their responsibilities.

I think that you give much more priority to your family than an average woman which is your choice and you might work harder to save a marriage when you don't like or get bored of your partner. But to say that women should sacrifice some of their aspirations and compromise for family isn't right (if anyone wants to, she can). If you have any relevant statistics that mention that women are more likely to end marriage than men, i would like to know.

I an unmarried and have no kids. Right now I am a "career girl" and having a husband and kids isn't my aspiration at this moment in time. My point is that if women, or men, make the commitment to get married and bring kids into the world they should be prepared to make sacrifices for it, and not be so selfish as to think they can continue living as if they are single. If I ever marry and/or have kids, I will alter my lifestyle accordingly. If I don't want to change my lifestyle then I won't bring kids into this world only to dump them at daycare when they are 6 months old. Also, I never said women are more likely to end marriage than men.

The brain of males and females differ slightly (maybe due to evolution, hormones, environment, etc). There are some areas in which male brain is better (mathematics, visualize objects in 3D) and some areas in which female brain is better (language, artistic expressiveness, carrying out detailed tasks) but difference isn't so big or UNIVERSAL that would justify restricting or encouraging what they can do. Keep in mind that there are significant differences in brains of people of different race and region. Most of the restrictions that are put on sexes (both men and women) have more to do with culture than anything else.

No-one is saying there should be restrictions on what people can do. Women already have every opportunity, as do men. Both can work, determine their own lifestyles. Why are so feminists obsessed with driving it to extremes?

I offered a fat lady on the T bana a seat yesterday. She wasn't old, just disproportionatey wide for her height. And sweating profusely.

She accepted gratefully.

What category am I in at the moment? Sexist? Would I have done the same for a large sweaty male?

Discuss.

Thank you. I can't help but wonder about women who cannot tell the difference between equality and being the same. I know feminists don't want to hear it but women are already equal to men. We have the vote, the right to work, marry or not, maternity leave & pay and a million other rights. Women who see this as not enough and are always trying to push it even further, to where women are more equal than men and where women actually aspire to live traditionally male lifetyles... well I can't help but wonder whether actually these women are the total opposite of feminists. It seems that they do not value women or think they are worthy the way they are. The do not think women are worthy unless they are behaving exactly like a man. So I can only conclude that these women actually have a low opinion of women in general since they are always trying to change them and make them more masculine.

LOL. Maybe she only accepted because she was too out of breath to shout at you and too fat to lift her arm enough to punch you. I am sure that, inside, she cursed you for your rudeness.

You have just profiled my ex missus in a nutshell and alarmingly a number of her social circle and family - I wish I had spotted what was developing earlier... spot on analysis!

I never said that Janie.

Swedish women don't just dump children in dagis. They work part time for years after their children are born. Men don't do it enough in my opinion. Perhaps you don't have enough experience of knowing a lot of Swedish mothers.I do, and none of them match your description. What's wrong Janie? Why have you got this warped view? Did you work with some Swedish women who were mean or dumped kids in dagis?

Why aren't you asking why men aren't taking 50% of their time with the children? I thougt you said men are responsible as well? I hope you know that it's women who mostly take care of their children and not men.

A lot of younger fathers are much better at taking care of their children which is lovely! I adore seeing fathers pushing prams, in any country. I love the fact that some fathers who have lost their kids in a custody battle in the UK have started a group to fight for their rights.

Why are you so mad at women?

Could it just be that you don't actually know how many women end a marriage and are just basing your facts on the perhaps few Swedish women you know?

Some people in this thread really need to calm down.

@IamUnique

You should move to any 3rd world country, you might have more luck with women there. You will also have more chances of using your strength (lifting stuff, fixing cars, etc). In all developed countries most males and females you encounter will want "FEMALE SUPERIORITY" because they have been brain washed or ordered by their female masters, so hurry and move to any under developed country where people demanding "female superiority" haven't reached yet.

Once again Streja, you are warping what I said.

Swedish women don't just dump children in dagis. They work part time for years after their children are born. Men don't do it enough in my opinion. Perhaps you don't have enough experience of knowing a lot of Swedish mothers.I do, and none of them match your description. What's wrong Janie? Why have you got this warped view? Did you work with some Swedish women who were mean or dumped kids in dagis?

As I said earlier, it doesn't matter whether it's the man or the woman who looks after the kids. I am basing my view on what the people on this forum describe of their lives, their experiences of Sweden, and their thoughts on life. It is some of those views that I am critisising. And if none of the mothers you know match my description, then either you don't know those mothers very well, or the people on this forum are making alot of stuff up.

Why aren't you asking why men aren't taking 50% of their time with the children? I thougt you said men are responsible as well? I hope you know that it's women who mostly take care of their children and not men.

As I said earlier, it doesn't matter which parent is looking after the kids, but since the discussion at the time was about women, that's what I was talking about.

Why are you so mad at women?

I'm not mad at women in the slightest, quite the opposite. I'm annoyed by extreme feminists who insist on going way too far and being selfish, and forcing their views onto others. IMO it is you and a few others on here who seem mad at women for wanting to be themselves. I remember a comment you made quite a while back in a discussion on this website. Someone asked you what you would do if one of your female students said her dream in life was to be a housewife. You were appalled at the idea and ranted about how you would do everything you could to try to make her see the light and make more of herself and do something worthwhile. But the way you were writing it, you came across very bigoted. You sounded just as bigoted as a man who thinks women should be forced to stay in the kitchen. This is the thing I'm mad about, how extreme feminists often think less of others' life choices if they are not the same choices that they themselves would make. It is just as oppressive to women as expecting them to stay home against their wills. I personally enjoy being a woman, I love my female friends and am not mad at women in the slightest. But I am annoyed at how narrow-minded and oppressive towards women some extreme feminists are, and it is those feminists who seem mad at women, not me. I don't care whether a woman wants to be a soldier, a scientist or a stay-at-home mum, as long as she is happy and any kids she brings into this world are too. You're the one who seems to think that women should behave just like men, and men just like women or that there shouldn't be any difference between the two. It's an insult to women, you're basically saying we're not good enough as we are, we're only good enough if we emulate men as much as possible. Although you think of yourself as a feminist, your viewpoint seems to me actually anti-feminist.

Could it just be that you don't actually know how many women end a marriage and are just basing your facts on the perhaps few Swedish women you know?

How many women end a marriage is not the point. The point is that in Sweden it is made too easy for both men and women to make a big commitment and then just walk away when they can't be bothered any more.

And Iamunique does make a valid point about how Swedish women seem more interested in female superiority than genuine equality.

Gosh...

From a Swedish man who believes in equality.

I'd like to comment on some common assertions in this thread.



"Swedish men have poor self-confidence"

Heh. It's just that Swedes doesn't cover up low self-confidence like Americans or South-Europeans.

Americans with low self-confidence is the most annoying thing out there. They brag about stuff they never accomplished, talk down on women, lie about their past:, brag about getting laid and compare penis-sizes.

Swedish men have low self-confidence? Guys...



"Swedish men are oppressed" I.e. They are forced to do more housework than their female-counter parts.

Equality is not about splitting everything 50/50. The amount of housework should be distributed according to circumstances. I just don't think that gender is a relevant circumstance and thus shouldn't be taken into consideration when distributing household work.

Finally, a question: So then, if Swedish men are opressed by women, does that mean that America, England, Italy (or whereever you come from) are the ultimate places for gender-equality? Sweden is the one and only country where gender-inequality exists?

I am sorry if I got carried away earlier in this thread. I meant no disrespect. I registured on this site to learn not to preach, have had a bad week.

Nothing. I said I'm interested since I've had this conversation before with muslim women.

Differences don't automatically lead to inequality. But it's what you are suggesting. You are suggesting social rules based on differences, just like people who propose sharia law. The problem with your kind, and sharia law defenders, is that you try to put it forth as equality. Be honest instead. Equality does not mean that men and women are the same but what you are proposing is not equality.

Yes, in a culture where such acts are not the norm. Cultural differences do exist and it's a bit arrogant to assume your way is the only correct way.

I don't know? Anger issues?

Read it in a magazine (Science Daily I think)

Expatriate students need to assimilate into the host culture?

So if neither want to do it the mother should automatically do it? If neither wants to they really shouldn't be having children... just saying...

Anyway, the problem here is that you have a stereotypical view of what a man "should" do. Masculinity and femininity affects social interaction, not lifestyle. There is absolutely no reason why a man should be main breadwinner in the family, even arguing using masculinity as a theory. :/

Are you attracted to every man you meet? Are you the kind who doesn't believe men and women can be friends? :/ Or else your analysis really doesn't make any sense...

Then how do you explain matriarchal societies today and in the past? Humans are all of the same species and should, according to you, be biologically inclined to follow patriarchal systems. That gender roles vary between different populations shows these are social differences and not something that is in our genes.

Would it matter? Women weigh less on average too and only have to carry their body weight. Ask anyone in the army who trains both men and women who has the best muscle endurance. When it comes to body building STRENGTH plays a huge part and you can't compare these scenarios.

You're a riot.

Are you seriously suggesting pregnant women should start lifting heavy things?

Women do plenty of things that have been traditionally men's work in the past. Actually having a job and earning money is the first one... Driving places is another. What else? Painting? Most couples I know do it together. Gardening? Varies between men and women I know. Fixing the car? Most will send the car to a station or the person who knows the most about cars will fix it (often men). My mother changed tires on our car plenty of times though. The stereotype of the "handyman" isn't really that common in Sweden either. Most men and women I know would be clueless about what to do if the plumbing breaks or something.

The hierarchy of Swedish equality is as follows:

1) children

2) women

3) dogs (and possibly cats and other cute pets)

4) men

Sweden is one of the few places in the world where any man can experience being the lowest form of life.

The only reason children are No 1 is beause putting women at No 1 would have been a bit too obvious.

It also allows us to wallow in the illusion that society is doing everything for our kids - who, it seems, are far from happiest (according to a comparison study between 11 European countries).

Well I had a Swedish boyfriend and now have a Aussie husband....And I guess I'd take the Swedish boyfriend.....

Aussies are a bit awful as husbands I am afraid....

Hello to all,

My cousin has a Swedish fiancee and is very romantic and loving (he often send her lovely notes or call when he´s not arround). I admire the person in him and hoping to meet a Swedish guy in near future. But i wonder if there are possible ways where to meet these men, like a website or any kind of links. Do you know any? Im sincerely looking for a lifetime partner. I have been lonely for 5 yrs already, Im 28yo...hope for any possitive reply guys..thank you for your time, Ana http://profiles.friendster.com/78086588

I don't know what type of ozzy guys are living in sweden to create this chauvinistic opinion of us, but all the comments directed to ozzy men that I have read herein seem to be so far from the truth, that is for at least any ozzy guy who doesn't come from Darwin or far Northern Queensland. I am happily married to a foreigner (not swedish), and amongst other chores, I cook the majority of the meals, which range from thai, french cuisine, italian pastas, to fresh salads and bbqs, I drop off the washing to be done, I clean the bathroom, and I take out the garbage. I also earn more than my wife, but we have shared bank accounts, becasue I believe everything should be equal and as a team. My wife and I discuss our future and we work together on critical decisions (her opinion is highly valued as it is generally more logical than mine). We keep our own interests as well, she shops, I surf, this is important and was taught to me by my mother, who made me do my own washing at the age of 13.

I can say that this equalitarian outlook is the same for all my ozzy mates (girls and guys). They respect their girlfriends/wives/boyfriends/husbands/partners, they help out with the house chores, they are all great cooks, they are inter-dependent, and they are pretty easy going.

I also think that there is a new generation of ozzys (starting around the age of early thirties and below) who are very different from their more traditional parents and who would not tolerate a lazy, sexist partners. I hope the figures in the report accounted for age in the married households, becasue ozzy's tend to get married in their early thirties, which means that most of the new generation (the equalitatrian ozzy's) would not be married and would not be considered here.

One last thing, love comes in so many forms, and what's good for some people isn't good for others. So respect all humans, wehter they seem "week" or not, love each other, and chill out...

Cheers

I am a girl from Malaysia. I have been dating a Swedish chap for almost 2 years now and everything's been ok, so far. He is 34 and I am 30.

I love the fact the he helps around the house, don't mind doing the laundry and cook occasionally, when and as he wants. There is no such thing as forcing each other to do anything and that is the part that I love most. Unlike most men here in Asia (or Malaysia) I can be myself and he can be him. We have good conversation, exchange point of views and respect each other.

However, once in a while, despite all those things done, I still don't feel like I'm being appreciated as a woman. I don't feel being admired, I hardly get any praises..and I don't feel like he appreciates me as his woman. I have to put in so much effort to get him to express his feelings, how he feels. He doesn't have any problem talking about Obama, trust me. He can go on about China's economy for hours but when it comes to us, he shuts and closes his mind. I get frustrated-confessed to him. This is how I feel..bla bla bla..and I need more..from him...to be more attentive, to listen to me more, to show how he loves and cares for me. Being a working woman, I have everything that I need except a companion who is understanding and can be my best friends as we grow old.

It's not that easy. He wants me to accept him the way he is. That is fine. But the nagging about how people do not Q in 7eleven, one time is OK but everytime people here (uncivilised Asians) cut Q, I get to hear about it. When people drive like maniac, he complains and get annoyed and try to give the finger sign-for what? To me, if you want a perfect place to stay, like your country, go back there. No need to come to people's house and complain how unorganised or bad it is. I don't think so I'd be complaining about the toilets in India. If I leave my house to go to India, I will be prepared.

The different priorities are the main problems for us now. We still stay together, trying to see how this is going to end. It is no doubt a sad thing but, what can i do when all I want is for him to understand my needs. He is like a robot, not much emotion, doesn't show his feelings that much and I am sooo full of everything-facial expression and talk non stop, as compared to him. He expects me to be a strong woman, able to do everything independently and not relying on him that much. I can. But in terms of romance and love, I can't be seeking that from another man, can I? and the reason why we are together is definitely because we both need our someone. A companion to share our lives with.

The question is not whether they make a good husbands, it is really depending on an individual. My fella is a bit cold but he is going to make a good life partner. A matter of compromising what is the main thing that I want and he wants.

im aussie and living with my swedish misses ..

compared to aussie girls swedish birds are pretty lazy ..theres no interest in playing a womens role at home theres always a excuse they demand a male to do everything for them..the cooking the cleaning the planning the finance you name it they want it..the male in the home gets Jack!! as for in Oz the women are more involved and in return the man chipps in..

In my case the misses has finally accepted im no Swedish softy who spends hours cleaning the house and cooking dinner before she comes home.

my advice to swedish males be A MAN !!!!

say NO.