'Make parents pay for children's crimes': Ask

Sven was always a good little boy. He just ran around with a bad crowd, it was'nt his fault.

Funny, when the police investigated the trashing of the tram stop shelter, all the saw was Sven holding the rocks. Where was the bad crowd ???

Parents everywhere will always make excuses for their kids. The modern day secular mindset has pretty much castrated parents from disciplining kids and the fruitage of this is the diliquency we all now live with. The only other alternative is to ignore it and continue to let taxpayers pay for the failures of parents when their kiddos damage the country's infrastructure through vandalism.

I other countries this might make a sensible idea but here to cannot discipline you children properly. Allow corporal punishment and maybe this will be workable :)

Best damn proposal so far! Parents must be held accountable for their children actions!

Still don't like this Government though...cough cough...grumble

As they say "authority comes with responsibility", if you cant name your kid what you want if you cant spank him then you cannot be held responsible for the kid.

The government should be held responsible. After all, they are the ones doing all the rearing in Sweden. The parent are only accidental surrogates.

The only reason the Government/Tax office need to have so much control of your kids, for example Naming, and punishment...Is because 90% of all parents I see in Sweden totally fail as parents in every way.

See this is the first act of giving that responsibility back to the parents, good luck with that!

Is Kids belong to Parents ? or the government ?????

Or the society ???.

owners should pay....

This is very good law! But you must not teach kids to report their parents when they are kids, every child is grown by thinking that we are free and whatever we can do and we can call 112 to report our parents.

children grow up with this mentality because their teachers always tell them in "kindergarten" to report your parents if they do anything..

instead of saying and teaching them that your parents have complete rights on you some teacher teach shits!

The modern day secular mindset has pretty much castrated parents from disciplining kids - Bettan 1

We are not allowed to discipline our children but made responsible for their reckless action. some parents are even afraid of their children these days. What a PC world. The other i shouted at my child for picking dirts on the floor, the teacher accused me of hurting y child's feelings

@Tutu - I don't have kids so im not as wise in that sense as you are, but my instant reply would have been "shut the hell up and mind your own business" " Your there to teach, do your job, and shut up"

hehe...Ok..So maybe I shouldn't think about having kids for a few more years :)

The reality is there is no connection between child and parent. Most parent nowadays just have kids because most of their friends are doing so; because it is popular and the government in turn provide these clueless people with incentives to spit out more kids. The society in itself is so screwed up. Then the kids go to school and the government spies (techers) ask the kids questions like do your mum and pop argue in front of you, do the use profanity etc and then report you to big brother. The social service visited a friend of mine because he gave an over the counter cough medicine he purchased in France

@Luckystrike ... You are totally right. I would say more than 90%. Lots of parents I know go for divorce too easily because they know they have "sos" to take care of the children anyway. Well......

Can you believe those comments above?

Children are not property and therefore, of course, they do not have owners. For the same reason hitting them can never be legal in a society which respects basic human rights - because it is wrong to hit a human being and children are human beings.

Anyway, it has been proved many times that punishments doesn't do much for preventing criminal behaviour - neither in adults nor children.

I believe that parents are always responsible for their children's crimes even if sometimes they just can't help it. But I'm not sure I understand the government's proposal very well from the article. Does it mean paying for a broken window or for something stolen? Or paying for non-material damages to the victim of a violent crime? There's a big difference.

Agreed with peropaco. Personally, I think parents should have to be licensed before they are allowed to have children. Kind of like how people are licensed before they can drive a car. This sounds a little Draconian or extreme but the point is that there are WAY too many parents out there having kids who are not fit to be parents. Furthermore, people under a certain income level should be allowed only 1 or 2 children. But this law, I think that it is a step in the right direction. At least there is some form of accountability going on.

"sloe"

"Anyway, it has been proved many times that punishments doesn't do much for preventing criminal behaviour - neither in adults nor children."

This is, of course, typically brain-dead liberal nonsense. Capital punishmnet is very effective at preventing recidivism. Similarly, people tend to be prevented from committing crimes by being locked up. Even more pertinently, kids tended to do what they were told far more 40 or so years ago when there was a very real risk of getting a thick ear off a teacher, neighbour or passing policeman if they played up. One of the biggest idiocies in recent years has been the concept of treating children as if they were little people, rational adults who just happen to be a bit short. They're not, they're half-formed, selfish animals who need (and indeed crave) direction and clearly identifiable boundaries. Something adults have consistently failed to give them. Mainly because all the traditional ways of disciplining children have been deemed inhumane by a bunch of lentil-eating, drug-addled hippy wasters in the 70's-

Finally, ignorance is no excuse!!

@ eZee . The first thing i thought after reading your comment was " Holy #hit...This actually makes sense " ....

"Could it be!!??"

@Luckystrike,

well, look at France and their Hadopi law...

even if someone rides on your internet connection, the owner of the internet connection (even though he may be a carpenter and no idea of how to secure his connection) is fined.

If they tried to do that over here people would raise hell, so it does make sense they are going about it in another way.

I'm not a 'conspiracy nut' myself... but this is kind of playing pretty close to coincidence isnt it?

And theres nothing the music industry would like more than everyone being responsible for a download - so they will get paid,automatically, no matter what - for doing absolutely nothing.

It's About Time!

Parenting in this country has become a big joke. I believe teaching children basic principles like respect, discipline, manners and good behavior are a thing of the past. Parents are leaving their children to raise themselves, come what may and feel it is the responsibility of the schools to teach their children how to be decent human beings. You can blame this lack of parental supervision on a tight economy and longer work hours, divorce or any number of things but it is nothing more than pure selfish laziness. I fear for the future of this country if things don't change!

While the parents and teachers are busy with the back and forth of "It's your fault" these children continue to trip along through the most crucial years of development. They fall in behind the only people taking a "leadership" role in their lives, the older teenagers and young adult hoodlums hanging in their groups and making life miserable for residents in all communities. Should Social Services become involved their first course of action is to refer to the parents and the cycle starts all over again. The bleeding hearts of the world say these children are "victims of society" and just need someone to talk to. I say BULL! These children are not victims. And they have someone to talk to... Their parents!

Parents should be held accountable for the actions of their children. Financially and criminally. And I think it's a crying shame that it would take new legislation to force a parent to take an active roll in a child's life. And of course it's never their child involved in these thefts and senseless acts of vandalism. It's always the other kids in the group. Maybe we should look at laws that make each individual responsible for the activities of the group. Punish the group, hold the children and parents responsible, and I believe we will start to see change, however slight.

How about making the children pay for their own crimes?

You know, a bit of personal responsibility instilled at an early age.

As has been mentioned parents have no rights any more, they have been completely, intentionally usurped by the state.

I think its a good Idea that if a minor commits a crime the parents should be held accountable. If the parents know that they will have to pay the price for their child, Maybe they will try harder to raise their kids right.

First of all... I was taught right from wrong as a child and I knew there were consequences for my actions. Therefore I never even thought of getting involved in any criminal activity, but nether did any of my 3 brothers or sister. That's not to say that people or children wont still do wrong, but It will be less with better parenting. It is really is about how you raise your kids. Children need boundaries just like everyone else in the world. If you don't teach them there is consequence's, they will grow up thinking they can do what ever the hell the want with no repercussions.

If the parent's are held accountable they can punish there children in other ways, for example... Grounding them, having them work off the money that you had to pay, Or doing chores around the house. Its to teach them if they do something wrong, They will have to pay ether way.

About having parents be licensed to have children, thats ridiculous! Although I totally agree that most parents are not qualified to have children you cant stop people form there free right. That's taking away a basic human right. What will you do about accidental pregnancy's? make them abort? That's just madness.

Sorry for rambling , But as a whole people need to take more responsibility for there kids, you are the one who brought them into this world.

Pinkjess - I agree that the whole point about being a minor, or below the age of criminal responsiblity, is that they can't be held accountable, and thus the parents shall be. Which of coruse, gives the parents a greater incentive to get the little sods under control from day one.

As for your "you can't stop people from their own right" comment, unfortunately governments do exactly that. All the time. If I wish to grow and consume a naturally-occuring psychoactive plant I am not permitted to do so, even though it should, of course, be perfectly within my rights to grow and consume whatever I wish to.

Personal responsiblity is a frightening concept for most of today's politicians. It's also a completely unknown concept for an ever increasing slab of the population.

A perfectly reasonable proposal. Nail the parents for their kids' misdeeds! It's about time, despite how much the soft-hearted liberals on the left will shriek.

@ Staffs

Are you a parent? (Just curious)

Luckystrike,

No, I'm not a parent, I just believe it to be an absurd proposal.

Last week we had a man convicted of raping a child based solely on the child's testimony.

If children are mature and reliable enough for their testimonies to be used as one person's word versus another's in order to convict a man, then they are mature enough to take responsibility for their own actions.

this is what happens when you cant spank the buggers

time to implement sharia law

OF COURSE the parents have to pay!

Or is it any social to leave the victims with the damage unpaid?

Why the parents?

Why not teachers who have just as much influence?

Why not the state (taxpayers) who dictate the school curricula and other social policy?

Why not scout leaders?

Why not anybody who at some point in their lives come into contact with children?

You are criminalising parents for the actions of a person who is deemed not to be criminally negligible.

Why not take it a step further and start jailing husbands and wives, grandparents uncles and aunts for the crimes other member of their family commit?

There is a distinct lack of considered thought on these blogs, it's just knee jerk emtional rants.

Good!

maybe after this Swedish parents will start taking responsability for parenting instead of thinking it is only about taking pappa och mammaledig and being a latte mamma.

It surprises me how disconected in the upbringing Swedes are to their kids, and it surprises me even more when a grown swede complains about school saying they didn\t teach him anything about life... then I wonder... isn't it the role of the parents to teach kids about life??????? what exactly is the role of the parents in this country???

ok, at least now it will be to pay the faim

i find most of the above exceedingly scary...the more time i spend here,the more i wonder about staying. I cannot believe some people ,adults,parents,think that their own children are not their responsibility. I shudder at the thought of "the system" taking parental control of your own offspring. The first time i swore,i had my mouth washed out with a bar of soap,an old but effective treatment,and more than likely looked on today as either torture or child abuse,either way,i never cursed within earshot of my parents. If as parents you cant control your own children,mainly due to some misguided supposedly well meaning,no more shouting/slapping law,then you shall reap your own society and dont complain about it!

I think the parents should pay, but this only works if the parents are then allowed to punish their children. . . Which they are either not allowed to or not inclined to.

I agree with luky strike and for the first time i also agree with DreEswd. Some parents have no business in parenting at all. that why we have vagabonds on our streets. imagine an alcholic parenting or a woman with 6 children from 5 men.

Wow, so many idiots on here. Parents are most definitely allowed to punish and discipline their children. What they're not allowed to do is physically abuse them (aka corporal punishment). It's sad that some people think violence can only be treated with violence. Very sad indeed. As for the suggestion, I agree with it. It'll be an incentive to the parent to keep an eye on their kids and it'll be an incentive for the kids to stop committing crimes (assuming that they care at all for their parents).

Has anyone heard of Sparta, it stands for discipline.

That was a society that had its foundation laid in discipline.

Has anyone heard of Greece (yeah, the origin of demo-crazy), they threw away principles/values/discipline in pursuit of self.

Our society in the name of modernity and civilization thrown away age-old principles and instead crafted laws that stand no test of time.

I'm speechless yet again.. (well ok, not exactly; slowly building up to a point) It's incredible that I'm still sane after 6 months of you idiots making oh so many horrible, terrifying, disgusting, outrageous, stupid and heartbreaking comments..

I can't even believe that people like you exist in the western world.. I can't find the right words to express myself and the friends (Swedes and immigrants) that I show what you people write on TL to are in equal disbelief (which feels very good to know) that humans, especially westerners, can have such.. stupid and horrible values and opinions (because there are almost only westerners who express the opinions that I talk about).

There are just so many things I want to say but omfg hur och vad i helvete är poängen? Your are monsters and so god damn hypocritical. How can you possibly call us hypocritical when you say things like "Swedes are rude and cold" followed by "Swedes are retarded racists with "holier than thou and Aryan über alles" - attitudes"?!

Who gives a sh1t about that non western immigrants in Denmark are responsible for 68% of the rapes there (we all get immigrants in the same situations from the same countries without implying anything else) when we have people like you getting in?! To the people who recognize the quotes I've written from their own comments; (and here comes my point) GET THE F*CK OUT!

Leprehcaun,

I don't exactly understand what your pertaining to on this subject? But not all us westerners have stupid, horrible values and opinions. AND the statement you just made was hypocritical. If we live in Sweden we have every right to make comments and have opinions. BTW it is Sweden that is proposing this law NOT us westerners. Geeze freedom of speech, Kinda. Sometime I cant stand reading this forum cause everyone take everything so far and out of context. Take a chill pill.

The world is full of problems. People judge, and make stereo types. If your not saying it out loud then you have thought it. If you have ever look at someone for being different weather it be, A tattooed person, a white person, a black person, a nerdy person, a fat person, a gay person, a short, a tall person, or beautiful person, you get the point. :) Then you have been a judgmental racist, and stereotypical. Also known as... HUMAN. So really can you relax now. Love and be loved.

All I was saying is that children as well as adults should have consequences for their actions. As adults most of us SANE people know, that if we drink alcohol and get into a car you could kill yourself or someone else, hence (consequence) If we rob a bank and are caught, we will go to jail hence (consequence). So parents should instill discipline in their children when they are young to be responsible human beings. Therefor when they grow up they will have a good moral compass. :) That's not all bad, I'm not saying to beat your kids in anyway shape ore form. Or not to let kids be kids and have fun, But if they do go astray the parents (aka) the people that brought them into this world, should take responsibility. How is holding someone accountable for there actions wrong? Having discipline and raising your children in a loving caring environment is all I'm talking about. It's also all relative to the situation.

ClungeDelver,

I agree that governments do exactly that, All the time. But That doesn't mean it's right. This is not communist China were we are gonna start population control, frankly that scares the shite out of me. I totally agree that so many people are unfit to be parents and have way to many children that they can't provide for, witch in turn falls on the the tax payers, but where do we draw the line on human rights.

I feel like moving to a island and living in a bamboo house catching my own fish and drinking coconuts for the rest of my life with the way the world is going. Scary.:(

Hallelujah!

I agree with very many of the posters here. It is evidently clear, that Kids without boundaries or discipline leads to destruction! I would invite any Swede to lurk about late at night, particularly week-ends and see how many kids are out and about at all hours of the wee morning! Just saturday night, we observed a large group of boys, some so tiny, they could wear pampers, okay just kidding, but they were between 14 to 16 years....Where are the parents....! There are some good parents out there, but it seems the majority of parents dont give a damn about what their kids do. Kids are out of control, because they are in control! This will prove to be detrimental to the future of Sweden. Oh, one more thing, spirituality is lacking!

Unless it can be shown that parents are negligent and had prior knowledge that a child was going to do something illegal, then the child should have to pay for the crime. Even the very best kids might do something illegal. You can't blame the parents for everything.

Children have very little concept of how their actions affect others. Teenagers have more understanding but tend to get caught up in the moodiness and the need to be "cool" that goes along with that age range.

Parents need to teach their children, from a very early age, that their actions have consequences. By the time they're teenagers it's too late.

I don't believe that you ever need to resort to hitting a child. Discipline and responsibilty can be taught in other ways.

I have a friend with a 5 year old. When she is with dad she always behaves but when she's with mom she turns into a total brat. The difference?

Whenever she was with dad even from a very young age, maybe 18 months, dad has been in charge. Not by being mean or abusive in any way, but by teaching her that her choices have consequences. For example...

When it was dinner time the little girl decided she didn't want to eat what was made. She wanted chicken nuggets and started to throw a fit. Dad didn't get loud but simply told her that if she didn't want dinner it was time for bed. He took her to bed and came back to finish his dinner. She cried and came back to the table 2 more times demanding nuggets, both times she was put back in bed. The third time she came out she was trying to look sad, but not crying. Dad asked her if she was ready to eat and she said yes and ate and everything in her little world was fine again.

When she's with mom and does that, mom gives in and makes nuggets.

This carries over into every aspect of their lives. Parents give in because it's eaiser than arguing or listening to screaming all night, especially after they've been working all day.

It's alot more beneficial to the child, parents and society when parents do what's right instead of what's easy.

Children are happier, do better and are more self-confident when they have boundries. While they may not always appreicate it, somewhere deep inside it feels good to know that someone cares if they succeed and that they're safe. They'll come to realize that as adults.

If you have a child either through choice or lack of planning, you have a responsibilty to everyone, to work your @ss off to make sure they turn out as good as possible. You can't take the easy way then expect society to pay for it.

Having said that, I don't really agree with having parents always pay for their children's mistakes. Sometimes kids do stupid / bad stuff, even with good parents. Sweden needs to find a way to deal with young criminals before they get worse. Counsling, community service etc.

As one of the 'older' posters on TL, I have lived through many changes in society, some good and some bad. I grew up in a post war period when the things that children take for granted today where just not available. People knew everybody in their locality and bad behaviour by your or other people's children was seen and commented on. Being the parent of a badly behaved child, segregated those parents from the social group that they needed to belong to. Therefore pure self interest ensured that the majority of parents ensured that their own kids stayed on the straight and narrow.

Corporal punishment, which was the norm, both in the school and at home, did nothing to stop bad behaviour. Facts show that people who where physically abused when young are more likely to become abusers in later life. What did have an effect was the sanctions imposed for anti-social behaviour by parents and the peer group. I remember when I broke a neighbours window while playing football. I was forced to take the cost of a new pane of glass from my piggy bank, go around to the neighbour with the money and spend a day working in the neighbours garden. Not only that, I had my football confiscated and I was grounded for a month. Seems hard ? One thing for sure, I made certain that I never broke another window ever again. I have applied the same principles to the upbringing of my own son. When younger he often accused me of being 'unfair' for not letting him do what he liked. Today he is a responsible young adult that I am proud to say is my son.

Today, we live in a disposable society. People live a me, me existence and do not care what the wider society thinks of them. This selfish attitude of the parents permeates down to the children. Who emulate their parents. Making parents pay for the destruction caused by their children, could be a way to change the attitudes of some people - 'Hit them where it hurts, in their pockets' . But, it will only have a longer term benefit if the parents make the child pay restitution to the parents in the form of loss of pocket money, grounding and public shaming. Loss of face, and ridicule by their peer group is a good way to get a child to stop anti-social behaviour. As many other posters have said here, a child needs boundaries, and there needs to be consequences for stepping outside of the boundaries that ensure that the child does not stray again.

pinkjess

I'm a perfectionist, I love details and pay great attention to details but sadly I don't think about that most people don't necessarily care as much.

I never talked about all westerners.. Swedes are westerners btw. I talked about and to a minority of people of which you're not a part of. I disagree with you, I think you are factually (I think that's a new word) wrong but you're not one of the fanatics I talk about and to. I talk about and to things like bettan (this though is the "best" (best does'nt necessarily mean good) comment).

I agree completely with Soul and Rick, I can't think of adding anything except my former British English teacher's statement (and I ofc don't know if this is true), she has been a teacher in both England and Sweden (for about a decade in England and.. longer here); anyway she claimed that Swedish pupils behave better (again better doesn't mean good) than the ones she had in England.

I've read some study about this but I don't remember when or where but I remember that it concluded that there is no connection between bad behavior and using or not using corporal punishment (meaning, if it is true, it is completely unnecessary). maybe someone else knows what I'm talkin aobut and can post a link or something, I think someone else above me wrote about it too, I don't have time to check though.

Some strange reactions to this article. this isn't about spanking ( agree with Swedes and modern science that it is wrong ) nor is it about chosing between the kids paying or the parents. The society can't make the kids pay but if the parents have to pay they can make the kids pay them back.

Leprehcaun

I would concur with your former English teachers view, that Swedish kids generally are better behaved than their English counterparts. I do not think that Swedish kids are inherently better, it is just that the changes in society that nurture the Yob culture are slower coming in Sweden. Attitudes of kids in Sweden today are different to what they where 30 years ago when I first came here. Lack of respect for authority and increasing use of 'Du' to everybody and anybody is the writing on the wall that Sweden is going the same way as the U.K.

Just take a good look around at the behavior of people in general -- the lack of respect and the disregard for the well-being of others around you. One can argue that this is the real world where we have the right to enjoy our individualism. Some even like to spend time on their own without having to ´worry´ about others. As true as these things may be there are extremeties that causes problems in society. After all, these are the same people having children who will exhibit traits passed on to them. Though some unfortunate children are surrounded by drugs or orphaned, people are bourne into families first and taught the values that they bring into society. Just as society aims to give orphaned children an opportunity for a better life, the socioeconomic goal is to make them valuable to society as well. So, one can argue that children who are born into families are given a head start in life compared to others. This brings an important point -- that no matter who raises our children (govt or parents), it is clear that guidance and opportunity to be better people is in the hands of adults who often fail them. Just as taxation is not enough to fix problems, disciplining by parents is not enough to be positive pro-active parents. Being ´there´ for kids is not enough. Nurturing and guidance to instill strong values doesn´t mean corporal punishment when an adult can use knowledge and wisdom instead, but I guess there isn´t much of that going around these days. Perhaps consequences for parents should definitely be enforced, but the government should also be prepared for the drawbacks when poor parenting causes unintended consequences in itself.

Rick

Thank you, that's was what I forgot to add (not iherently better); if it is true that kids here behave better on average I think it has a lot more to do with the size of the populations and the size of the "cities" than spanking/not spanking. Isn't it a universial fact that people on average behave worse in larger cities than people on the countryside?

"Parents in Sweden should be responsible for paying for damages caused when their children commit crimes, according to a new government proposal"

Exactly right. Just like the family dog who causes damage. 'Cept children shouldn't be allowed to avail themselves to the: 'one bite rule'.

.hoom.

Leprechaun.

Exactly right. In small communities like the one I grew up in, Kids where better behaved than in the large towns. Maybe because the chances of being caught where greater as there where fewer possible culprits for any crime!

The larger town 8 miles from my village had much more crime and even some no-go areas and that was 50+ years ago

Leprehcaun

You seem to be displaying the Swedish trait of thinking that Sweden is the best country in the world. I know this is what the government tells you but just because the words are spoken by the authorites doesn't mean you need to lap them up and defend them as your own.

i was in the believe that "parents always pay for the damages that their kids caused".its been that way in germany and it has been that way in the states as well.i am more curious why everyone on this forum is so worried about this new ruling.i am a single mom(and have been for almost 12 years) and i always raised my kids the best i know how.now,with that said,i moved to sweden last year with both of my teenagers and i have been seeing things that just makes u wanna puke,lmao.

there are so many swedish parents that almost act as if they are afraid to hurt their childrens feeling by declining them candy in the store..arghhhh.no wonder society is going to crap when we dont teach our youngsters limitations and boundaries.i tought mine respect and sometimes i also spanked mine(if absolutley necesary).does that make me an "evil" person?nowadays u have kids in school that disrespect their teachers(hanging teachers out of the window(happens in germany often) or worse case school shootings).this is the thing u hardly see in the states with the corpural punishment rule.i was always one of those parents that agreed to have my children spanked by the school principle.just for the kids to know that this could happen they behaved better because after all there was a repocution if they didnt.

in germany there is insurance u can take out in case ur youngster breaks a window or damages anything else.

i agree also with the previous post....parents should be required to have a liscence to have children.

my kids,even today as teenagers,know that if they mess up royaly "big momma"will come after u(even if that means jumping over a coffee table to get to them faster).

spy

"You seem to be displaying the Swedish trait of thinking that Sweden is the best country in the world. I know this is what the government tells you but just because the words are spoken by the authorites doesn't mean you need to lap them up and defend them as your own."

I'm not sure where to begin.. just wow. WOW.

1. Sweden is one of the least nationalistic country in the world.. at least outside Africa (don't know about that region).

2. It's not a trait to have that opinion.

3. I don't display that, there is no such thing as the best country in the world. There are good and bad ones when compared to each other but honestly all countries suck but considering the average and comparing to it I do think Sweden is one of the good ones.

4. Our politicians definitely don't say such things; you're confusing us with the US of A. Or you think that the Sweden Democrats is the one and only party in the country.

5. I don't lap dance the athorities, I wouldn't do it even if it was possible to gain something from it, I haven't even defended the government in my posts, are you dillusional or do you confuse me with someone else?

You hate Sweden and you're not realistic. I am only going to say this because it pains you. According to the UN I live in the world's most democratic, least corrupt, most equal, most atheist, most educated (acctually it is difficult to phrase that good, about 35.5% of the population has had college or university education, that the highest in the world and that's what I'm tlaking about, if you wonder Norway comes second with about 29.5% (assuming you're American the US comes.. a bit down the list with about 17/18/19%) and the list just goes on, it's ridiculous really, and some people value statistics to much). How does that make you feel? I'm hoping for many angry nationalistic and fanatical answers :D.

Since many people are comepletely unable to understand what I write i am going to clarify; I do not think that Sweden is the best country in the world, I hate nationalism and patriotism. The statistical facts I have written aren't facts that I know wether they are true or not, they aren't opinions, they are results of research conducted by many companies that I don't work for or have any connections to. I am not patriotic, I have stated these claimed facts to anger a particular person, it is not in any way meant to say anything about Sweden or to offend anyone.. except some of the people I hate, in this case foreign nationalists.

Leprechaun,

Well said. There seems to be a lot of people coming on to TL to use it as a Sweden bashing forum.

Some comes from people who do not live here, most probably have never been here and clearly know nothing about the country, the system or the people. To those people I say, Before you write your comments here, do your research and find out the situation as it applies in Sweden. That way you may possibly write something more than just hot air.

Other Sweden bashing comes from immigrants who live in the country. To those I say, If Sweden is the hell hole you claim, Why did you come here in the first place. If the USA , Germany, UK or wherever is so much better, then vote with your feet and leave.

Don't get me wrong, I do not look at Sweden with rose tinted spectacles, there are many aspect of Sweden that I find fault with. It is quite different to the Sweden I first knew 30 years ago. Some changes have been for the good and some for the bad.

I chose to come to Sweden of my own free will and accept the country, warts and all. On balance it is much better than my native UK.

Immigrants who seem to despise everything about Sweden, will never integrate into the society and will remain outsiders and be ostracised by the native population, in the same way that the dissatisfied "whingeing Pom" is treated in Australia

I'm just gonna trow this out there... If we moved to this country and are now considered residences or citizen, we have every right to voice are opinions respectfully. I'm not a Sweden basher by all means, and I do agree if you hate it here so much then GET OUT. But at the same time I think we should be able to talk about the cultural differences, laws and politics. If we came here and didn't care, we wouldn't be doing are part and integrating in the Swedish society.

Lets face it Sweden is afraid to take a stand on certain issues because it is so liberal and so afraid of being called racist, but what they are actually doing is letting people walk all over them and this country. I would never come to country and demand that they do things how we do them In the USA. This is Sweden and we should respect Sweden. I am patriotic, I believe supporting the good things of your country and fighting to change things for the better unites people, witch in turn creates a better life for everyone.

Their are many more groups of people that are threatening the Swedish way of life in my opinion. Being said that is one big reason why there are more crimes, higher rape and assault rates right now. witch brings me back to my point of stricter laws. It's NOT ONLY the groups I'm talking about its everyone in this country that is committing crimes. But lets put it this way, if you came from a country where if you stole you could have your hand cut off, and you moved to Sweden where if you rape someone you would get a tini slap on the wrist, whats to stop you from doing what you want... when you want. NOW I'm not saying that everyone that comes form those countries will do those things, but look at those statistics here in Sweden. That's is why I think Sweden should tighten up the reins, for the future and safety of the children and people that live here.

I speak my mind and say what I believe Not everyone will agree with me that's fine. I have many Swedish friends that think the same. Teaching children from a young age that disrespectfu, criminal behavior is unacceptable is going to lessen this problem. Things will never be perfect in any county but we should try are best to help make a better future. I guess I don't understand how Sweden being soft and lenient will achieve that. If your not doing anything wrong why wouldn't you want more laws to insure your safety? I personally think Sweden could use a whole lot more polices on the streets.

Now Smile!

FOOT: A device for finding furniture in the dark.

HEALTH: The slowest possible rate of dying.

KARAOKE: A Japanese word meaning tone deaf.

PHILOSOPHY: A study that lets us be unhappy more intelligently.

POVERTY: Having too much month left at the end of the money.

SUSHI: Known to the rest of the world as 'Bait'.

SLEEP: That fleeting moment just before the alarm goes off.