March 21, 2010
Published: 14 Dec 09 15:57 CET
Updated: 14 Dec 09 17:36 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/23840/20091214/
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Sweden isn’t doing enough to ensure equal working conditions for foreign researchers pursuing doctoral studies at Swedish universities, students and teachers rights groups claim.
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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So for this Sweden should not be blamed but the Home Country which is providing stipend.
I had a PhD offer from my university in Sweden and i was supposed to get the same amount as if some Swedish had that position. So to me system is totally FAIR.
But what "mmalam" commented above seems some real issue.
Psychologically its not that great for the foreigner working here as he might wonder if he is selected purely on the basis of tax savings.
A Phd student pays about 5000 sek tax/social benefits per month over a course of 5 years. Thats how much government looses per person everytime someone is hired on a stipend basis.
So the point is, if I am entitled as a student then why should I pay 31% taxes every month. If I need to pay taxes then I should be given a work permit, while If I am considered a student then I should not pay any taxes. I guess this is what applies to swedish students when they are doing their undergraduate studies. as they receive money from the government.
And for the knowledge, as Ph.D. candidates we do research through which universities receive fund, also we do teaching and administrative stuff. This is for some Swedes who may have problems with sharing our feelings as they may think that "those foreign students are coming getting high salaries than in their countries and they also complain!" In addition, I spend my salary here in Sweden, I pay for my apartment, buy clothes, food, have fun, etc....all from Sweden and IN Sweden
P.S. I left my job which was a higher a salary to get my Ph.D.
I totally agree with you govt should provide employee status to 100% employed(tax payee) foreign doctoral students.I think government should separate unemployed/scholarship students from employed ones. It is unfair to mix 100% employed(tax payee) foreign doctoral students with scholarship students and unpaid students.
@tennin
Let them come.They are hardworking intelligent people if there is no job here then they will work in some part of the world and pay taxes here.They won't become social bed bugs.
PhD student in other countries have paid for their PhD studies....but Sweden provides Phd Student stipend or salaries....and still complaining ?
My experience is too bitter to say too much. But I wish to let you know that after a hard fought two-year fight with the wooden-heads at Försakringskassan I got them to cover my medical insurance, at least partially. If any of you wants to hear details that could use for himself write at c0sss at yahoo.com. I am an EU citizen. Unfortunately, I do not know if my strategy works for people from outside EU. I do think that this unfair system that treats researchers as second hand citizens (better say subhumans) has to be exposed. After all, Sweden is the best and the most...country in the world. And they sure have an excellent PR department.
Those who pay their PhD studies are not as qualified as those who are hired in Swedish unis or are on scholarship in other countries.
I also think that the salary for the PhD students is fair and enough but I know what the consuqences of living on student visa while paying tax!!! This paradox should be resolved.
In most countries PhD students are paid, at least in natural sciences. It's understandable since they do most of research routine.
i have a question (can someone please clarify me from his personnel experience).
Are PhD Students (those who are Salaried employee from University) entitled to a-kassa?
Some context: I am a non-EU citizen with permanent resident visa in Sweden.
I tried to contact AEA (quite recently - a week ago), but they were not sure. One person said that you are a student, thus you can't join AEA/a-kassa. The other person said that since you are a salaried employee you can definitely join AEA. Can someone please guide me here.
Thanks alot,
Your logic really amuses me :), just because X doesn't want to spend more than Y, X should be paid less than Y. I believe its simple, .. if X and Y are working the same amount, they should be paid the same.
Don't tell me you are a PhD candidate as well :).
We Asians do so, because we have parents and family to take care of in our home countries. May be we are not as lucky as you to be born in a country (social welfare state) in which children don't have to care for their parents and family.
May be education isn't enough to understand differences among different cultures.
We asian sent money for our parents due to family bonding we have and we strongly believe that it is our duty to take care of our parents. It is not like that we let our parents to go to Old home alone and find nobody around them at last stage of life.
Do you really believe that maintaining a family with 3000 SEK is possible in Sweden?
Me and my wife both are employed PhD student here and recently we got a daughter. This is our first daughter. You might have bitter experience with other asians. I should say all fingures in your hand are not equal.
Regarding Barnbidrag, I would give up if Sweden does not have law. But I believe as a tax payer it is my right to have it. Its not matter of money, its a matter of right. We both earn sufficiently enough (around 45000 SEK) to take care of my child without having a small amount of barnbidrag.
You have questioned about quality of PhD student. Each foreign PhD students usually interviewed several times before getting a position. We have to go through a very competitive situation to get a position here. If you have doubt about quality, then I have doubt about the interviewer i.e. Swedish Professors.
Having 5 children is not sin. Any swedish family doesnt have 5 children?
A potential PhD candidate can go anywhere in the world, but my questions to you why Swedish Universities are taking foreign PhD student. Usually people want have something what is lack in him.
Terms and condition are made for human on planet. It can be changed for the betterment of life.
@ Bim 2
If you have permananent residence and employed in university as PhD student, you can have AEA/A-Kassa. I am quite clear about that.
I'm a Asian phd student in sweden. The phd system is quite different from other countries in both better side and worse side. In UK or US, student receives phd scholarship is not entitled to social benefit, because they don't pay tax. But here in Sweden, I pay 31% tax from the phd stipend, which should be sufficient to get the same social benefit as swedish students. The considering your statement of "barnbidrag is the collective investment on children who are going to be future tax payers" , I have to say all the children are already tax payers, because all the stuff they need contains 15%-20% consuming tax. In other EU countries and US, parents can get tax reduction, which is termed as "barnbidrag" in Sweden. Perhaps, swedes can also get tax reduction along with "barnbidrag"? I have no idea. I'm neither greedy to Swedish social benefit, nor satisfied with phd stipend, even it's the same at our department. I'm not happy with the price in the store. But, it's overall ok if it is the Swedish way. However, If I got less than Swedes but doing the same work and paying same tax, which means the same amount of CONTRIBUTION to this country, then I will have every reason to be angry. I guess then, you wonder "why did you come to sweden, if you think you can go to any other country?" I have to say, before I came, sweden did give me illusion. But now, I can tell you that I will leave just after graduation. Don't you understand? This is what states in the original article: "If we want to continue to attract high quality researchers, we're going to have to offer them better conditions than they may get in other countries". Haven't you seen over 30% names on the best scientific journals are asian names, and most of them are working in the US and UK. This is not the crisis to high quality researchers, since they will leave. It's the crisis to sweden, because it has paid a lot to those phd and posdoc, and educates them to become scientists, but eventually lose them. Don't you see where is the gain and loss?
I feel sorry for you guys for your candid approach to convince @human on planet, this stu*** A** about your agonies on this paradoxical issue. Dont you know whatever/however you tell/describe will be lie and nothing but lie/bullshit. Preaching a stu** is nothing but wastage of time.
@human on planet: You are really a croo**ed psyc**...distorting the logic...quoting false/fabricated statements...I wont spend time preaching you by logic but I am ready to do so by some other means.
To further reinstate your argument: A big chunk of the Ph.D. funds come from EU/non EU/International bodys (i.e. Int. Atomic Agency etc.) for scientific (experimental) research. The ignorants are requested to surf the wabe page of the concerned instititues to verify the statements. So, when its said that the Swedish Tax Payers money is spent on funding the foreign students (Ph.D.), its mostly overstated and basically not true at all in some specific cases. Why the Foreign Students are recruited then? Please ask the concerned Professors to get the answers.
good question.
here is the answer : 50% PR (projects in thailand, china, etc.) 50% competences
You are correct that large amount phd fund are from outside of sweden. But when you are concerning about the phd fund, which is really a small proportion of scientific research. Taking biomedical research for example, one student consumes at least twice the mount of stipend for experiments per month. 20mg enzyme can be easily more than 5000 kr. Obviously, these money are mostly from sweden itself. Swedish tax payer is spending over one or two million each year to support one foreign phd student or posdoc to boost into their scientific career, but repel them to contribute to other countries when they are mature, just for saving 10k or 20k social benefit expenditure. How ridiculous it is!
And personally, what did you eat this morning??
My husband's phd student and all the costs involved is funded by private sector investment.
A person prIvate life is PRIVATE, if u have 1 or 1000 kid, spend your money on fancy cloth or help you family. I dont have kids, i spend my money on fancy cloth and partying, Am not EU-member, but i still have the right to get all benefit if i pay tax!!! Who said that a swedish PhD should get benefit because his kids will live in Sweden? Is he sure he will live in Sweden??? People we are PhDs, we folow our job offers!!!
From my experience with PhD work, (i was accepted for PhD in USA, Swiss, and Sweden fully employed in all), it differes from country to other. For exemple in Italy they are payed so bad, and some time Non. In Swiss they are over-payed. Sweden is on of the country that pay well its Doktorand, no argue on that. If some students are payed less, it is their problem, because all information about research studies is published on web, and any person, certainly a smart ''PhD'', should have checked the conditions of work in a country before he apply or accept an offer.
The main problem in my opinion is student or worker??--- STUDENT VISA OR WORK PERMIT???
I am a Doktorand , who is well payed, because my research is over funded by Companies... My research is highly contributing to the stat-of-art Companies research and mainly development... In other sense, every work i do, university, company, funders have benefit from... In addition, by law we all should teach 20%...which mean university get benefit.... Finaly, as all of you i pay 25.5% tax (which by z way change between a city and other)...
All the above are enough conditions for me to be considered as employee and not as student.
If the goverment like to consider me as student then two solutions:
-tax reduction (a maximum of 10%)
-tax repayment up to 70% when i leave Sweden (In case i will leave). This is done in Swiss!
Most issues from having student visa, In my case, after doing my master in sweden, my phd in sweden, after living 8 years in sweden, am still student, with no benefit from AEA or A-kassa as i will have to leave sweden when my contract end because my visa will end (i can register and pay for AEA but it is a gambling)... Stress in private life as my status is not clear!
From my opinion, Sweden is a good place for research and they treat their foreign researchers well. There is always some racism and unequality here and there, but this is normal and exist in any other country.
I choosed Sweden after i considered all the life aspect. However, if the government give change our status from student visa to work permit, it would be more fair with us, and take out lot of stress that influence our work and research. Cetainly as we participate in teaching the next generations of students in Sweden!
Regards to All\
BTW:
PHD researchers don't get medical in the US they have to buy private insurance to get medical.
''PHD researchers don't get medical in the US they have to buy private insurance to get medical.'' For you knowledge everyone in US should pay for medical insurance other wise you get a crapy help.
For you knowledge:
An average PhD student salary in US is 1800$, average tax to pay (change with stats) 17.5%
France Average PhD student salary is 1700Euros with an average tax of 12.8% and after the work is finished (which is 3 years on average not ''5'', PhD are allowed to apply for permanent residence)
Swiss Average PhD student salary of 3000Euro, similar tax as in Sweden, but you get back up to 70% when you leave!
.
I am Canadian, with ''BETTER STANDARD OF LIVING'', and still as long as i pay high tax, i reclame my right!
People work to progress, improve and reach better life conditions, not the opposite...
Catch the train, it's winter time, Summer is over!
The real issue is that these student on stipends are *not* being paid by Swedish universities, but rather there own countries. Many of these are Chinese of Pakistani, due to the various agreements with between Sweden and these countries.
But saying that they aren't getting paid enough is *NOT* a Swedish problem, but one with their home countries. Why is it Sweden's responsibility to make certain they make the same wage as a doktorandtjänst? That's like complaining that when I go to Paris and don't have enough money that the French should give me some. It is patently absurd.
Equal pay for equal work is a fine idea, and I agree that *if you are an employee* you entitled to the same rights and benefits as all others. *No one* has shown that students from other countries who are offered doktorandtjänst positions are being paid less than Swedish students--a clear case of discrimination.
I felt terrible watching the Pakistani researcher who was trying to support his wife and two small children on 9500/SEK month.. But he needs to take up this issue with his employer who is the Pakistani government and not complain about the opportunity that Sweden has offered him.
By providing him a top notch research environment to work in and a safe society for his family to live in, what more should be expected of Sweden? To make up the difference between the poor salary his country is giving him? That would be the height of absurdity. But given how this debate has been framed and discussed, I fear that's what will happen.
All humans are the same. Nobody likes to spend less. You're not in position to say who deserves how much. So keep your subhuman racist views for yourself.
I think it is time to make a union of foreign phd students in sweden and unanimously represent concerns to the govt.
Someone should take an initiative now otherwise it will be never
I reread what human on the planet said .. nothing racist at all .
@rayiss
"reclaim my right:" this is not a Canadian saying .. I'm back in the us ... now for the winter .. still care what happens in Sweden
This is supply and demand .. move where you get the best deal but don't complain about the generosity of where you are given opportunity be it the US or Sweden or Canada
I have been doing my PhD in Spain but staying in Sweden and have been able to combine work with studies: it has not been easy, but it worths it.
One more issue: I am sure, one can do a PhD with much less than the stipend the Swedish universities pay. I wish I had 1/4 of the money!
Considering your agreement with him, I'm not suprised at all.
Saying 'this ethnic should get this amount and other should get that' is inevitably racist.
The pay for sponsored researchers comes from their country. Their governments decide what they will pay to sponsor them. So if you come from Saudi you might get much more from your rich government than if you come from a poorer country. But even that is not assured to be true. So forget the non sense about calling everyone a racist . There are true racists and you should call them out but to call everyone that says anything that you disagree with a racist diminishes the value of the term.
my beautiful mother land which only grows beautiful flowers and trees.
then why people who live on this mother land have grown plants of poision and hate just becauase my hair and skin color is different than some of them.
my mother land my heart is broken
my mother land i know you cry too silently in dark nights
but i promise you my mother land that i will not teach your grand children (my children) to grow poision trees in their hearts for others...
Well, I wish to do a PhD here, but I do not know where to get an application.
Well, everybody talks about money, but money per se is not an important thing... the most important stuff is the stuff you do with money. Stupid people do not understand that a night in a 5 star hotel in China could cost 300-400 kr, so with
10 000kr you would be living in a 5 star hotel according to they local government. So money is something relative, and governments do not give enough for every month in a 5 star hotel.
Now you changed the topic!! I didn't argue who fund them and I have no argument about how much these PhD students get. The fact that he devided PhD students according to ethnical backgrounds rather than their nationality is inevitably racist. Truth hurts but that's the way it is. I disagree with those who say these fund is low for foregeners but I don't call them racists because it's not. Racism has its own definition and I can't change I didn't call everyone racist nor I called racist those who disagree with me.
You should be ashamed of yourself for the baseless accusations against me unless you're ready to prove it.
I am so happy that the LOCAL is one voice that actually exists in Sweden and notes these things for the world to see while other Swedish papers never complain or even notice these things because Sweden wants to keep up its squeaky clean image of being fair to everyone. Sweden is a good country but things are not perfect and improvements can always be made. We just need to get the Swedes to admit to this then real change can happen! America isn't perfect either but at least we can admit our failings.
Wonderfully said now that thought needs to be embodied and present its case at the national level to the parliament and if not directly to the government in place and the liable ministries for upkeeping the status quo at the taxpayers expense (both foriegn and swedish nationals / citizens)
Our main obstacle then will be the "ansvarsförskjutning" literally responsabilitypushingaway! The system here is sooooo malign and us citizens encouraged to self apathize ourselves with vanity and "individual / personallife".
Domestication of human beings has been mastered in sweden from the best insights internationally on the small country it is. This does serve unfortunstly every citizens interests since politics is a part time hobby!
Selfrightousness cannot deliver the humility needed to accept fault. And the grief and selfdenial will just move from one generation to the next, ensure sooner and more ghastly death to those not yet born.
Worthlessness today ensures worthlessness tomorrow when we do not own up our shortcomings and reframe accoedingly no matter what it costs.
Blessup
/STTQ
"The agreements call upon the PhD students’ home countries to provide stipends to support them for their time in Sweden, but the level of financing is often below expectations"
Would not the answer be to define an EXACT amount that is to be provided by the home country?
I think it is stupid that people come here to study and expect the Swedish citizens to pay!!!
If there is no private funding and the home countries refuse to provide a livable stipend, then YES, students from those countries should be barred from coming to Sweden!
But the issue of maltreatment of PhD students even when they have funding from their home countries by some supervisors still remains within some Swedish universities. This act has been made possible in part due to the fact that few of those tutors in question sees themselves has being unquestionable by the system which is true. A lot of higly talented PhD candidates has been a victim of this unholy act.
I think that it is up to the departments to supervise this much more closely and take the issues more seriously. We have all heard about those professors who lie to oversees students to basically get them to come to Sweden and act as unpaid researchers often with the 'promise' of a PhD place that somehow never occurs. Then these student are shipped home when they start asking questions and a new batch are shipped in