Swedes positive about immigration: poll

I think people give and answer based on who is conducting the poll. What they say and think in private just might be something else.

The big problem with Sweden is that Swedes don't even have the right understanding about what can be considered as positive with immigration. The immigration should be considered positive when immigrants have the equal rights compare to the natives.

As an example, UK can be considered a positive place for immigration. You can find immigrants in all the level of social structures from top to down, poor and supper rich immigrants! Immigrants with key roles in politics, industries, education, medias, anywhere. However, immigration in Sweden is concentrated mostly in lower class, even immigrants with high education have very low chance to higher positions according to Swedish research. Probably in this poll, Swedes think immigration is positive because they brought Kebab and Pizza to Sweden. I mean Swedes don't have a clue what is positive or negative!

How British rate themselves here, Immigrants or Locals ??

As in every pole, the way the question is asked is the key.

"For the most part, has immigration been good for Sweden?"

The question itself has a qualifier("for the most part"), which hedges the question, and allows the respondent to hedge his/her answer.

A more direct question such as, "Is immigration good for Sweden?" may have gotten a completely different answer.

The poll also does not distinguish between economic immigrants(people coming to Sweden to work), and immigrants seeking asylum for political reasons. It is well recognized that citizens of any country are much more willing to accept immigrants who add economically to their new country. Sweden has always had a mixture of economic and political immigrants. The recent surge in political immigrants is a problem, and this pole does not specifically address this issue.

The poll was rigged to elicit affirmative answers.

Good point Krrodman, obviously you're a student of statistical methods.

I grew up in Africa (and subsequently work on Africa related issues), have a Swedish mother and English father. A few points:

- historically, we are all (im)migrants in Europe (even medel Swensons). The birthplace of humanity is Africa and there are MANY cultural, mathematical and scientific developments originating from that continent (including the binary code, which underpins IT technology which you are using to read this message). See, for example, Ron Eglash on African fractals:

http://www.rpi.edu/~eglash/eglash.dir/afractal/afractal.htm

- most scientific and mathematical developments actually originate from the Arabic world (eg Ibn al Haytham) and the only thing we in the West have excelled at is a form of reductionist thinking originating from Descartes and Adam Smith, which (in just a few hundred years) has squandered our natural resources and wreaked havoc on the natural world (eg climate change) while enslaving/dominating Africans, Latin Americans and other native peoples in the process. In contrast most Africans have been living in harmony with their environment for millenia.

- Very few scientific developments actually originate from Sweden. (Like the Japanese, Swedes are quite good at copying developments from overseas) Probably Sweden's major contribution to science being that Queen Christina killed Sweden's most famous immigrant Rene Descartes (who died of pneumonia mid winter up here in Sweden because Queen Christina forced him to get up early in the morning to teach her science!)

Sweden needs immigrants because you have an ageing population. Without the immigrants (who keep the old peoples homes and homehelp running) Swedish old people would die. Immigrants also do a lot of 'dirty' jobs that Swedish people are unwilling to do themselves. In my my experience, I've found the immigrants to be very hard working and decent and friendly. Perhaps a little less prejudice and a slightly more intelligent and sophisticated debate might be in order!

Mike

@Mike

You make some very important points, but miss on what I consider to be a very critical issue.

Western culture for the last 500+ years has attempted to "conquer" the natural world. I use the word "conquer" for both its good and bad connotations. Obviously, when western Europe enslaves peoples, or devours resources, the destruction is obvious for all to see.

I submit to you that the same need to "conquer" has benefited the entire world. The list is almost endless of the positive implications of western culture. The progress in science, technology, medicine, transportation, etc etc is all derived from the desire to "conquer" the natural world.

I also submit to you that the progress in philosophy that allows for mutual respect of all peoples derives from an increase in the universal standard of living which started in western Europe. The enlightenment is a western European construct that to this day is not shared or accepted by most of the world. The mere fact that we are having this conversation is a testament to western culture. Freedom of expression is not accepted in most of the world.

I am not an apologist for western culture. That said, while it is easy to criticize western culture for its mistakes and misdeeds, it is equally easy, and altogether wrong, to ignore the universal positives that derive from western Europe.

Cheers

Subsaharan Africa is a dump. Who cares if some ape tended to walk on 2 legs there millions of years ago and started 'civilization'. It wont be long before the wildlife, lakes, rainforest will all be gone as desertification of the entire contenent takes place, and its overrun with aid infested pot bellied babies.

As far as immigration, its like the US, certain groups come in and do the physical labor, Indians and Asians come to do the mental labor, as locals are too lazy to work hard or study hard. It becomes quite fascinating to see how cultures settle when they are mixed. To see which cultures value education and success, which value family (in the more the better) and devotion to religion, and which value the accumulation of worthless shiny objects.

Heh.

Japan is one of the most innovative countries in the world.

A people and/or society that cannot sustain its own population - let alone grow it - is by definition dysfunctional and has sentenced itself to extinction. Don't expect the theory of evolution to make any exceptions for this sort of cultural capitulation and nihilism. Healthy things grow. Sick things wither and die.

Educated immigrants is what Sweden needs.

Things have changed alot since 1986 ( when I arrived here from South Africa ) and getting a well paid job is much easier.

One just has to refuse to be downgraded.

@ Roy E. So well put that it is worth repeating.

A people and/or society that cannot sustain its own population - let alone grow it - is by definition dysfunctional and has sentenced itself to extinction. Don't expect the theory of evolution to make any exceptions for this sort of cultural capitulation and nihilism. Healthy things grow. Sick things wither and die.

The only aditional thing that would be nice would be for someone in the Swedish Governement from 20 years ago to step out and admit that they saw the impending decrease in population and decided on immigration as a corrective action. They chose not to spend money and encourage internal population growth. The new path is not neccessarily bad but the oppertunity cost is a different Swedish culture.

I agree the poll was probably artificial if the question was asked in that way. It doesn't seem sensible to go out and conduct a poll if you can't formulate a black or white question, when the only answer you can give the question is yes or no.

I also think that in general Swedes are not so anti immigration as it may appear. I've had discussions with people who welcome SD rising and getting so much support, even though they don't welcome it or when challenging the immigration fobia, they will say that they don't have a problem with immigration in general. Instead it is some group they target they hate against, like muslims who come from a culture which is alien to Swedes. I think it is very easy to target them, because many of them have an extremely hard time to integrate into Swedish society and end up on the debit side of the welfare state and most Swedes cannot see how they can ever cross over to the credit side. In becoming isolated, in an otherwise cold and inhospitable country (climate and culture) it is not difficult to see that fundamentalism is springing up. If you are part of a religion which is also a political movement, then in hard time the political movement gain the upper hand.

I think the absolutely best way forward is to remove the social welfare state from immigrants, cut taxes drastically so that people can get jobs and start contributing to society. It's the only way to avoid letting this conflict run out of hands. Incumbent politicians however aren't getting that message, hence the SD support numbers.

Regarding Africa. Noone knows the origins geographically of mankind. Noone can prove anything. The reason they have such success picking up pre-man in eastern Africa is because it was a nice swamp which preserved the remains. Just compare it to the dinosaur debate. For decades they believed T-Rex was the King, but since then they have found much bigger ones elsewhere. My guess is that the origin of mankind is somewhere which is now deep underwater in the indian ocean. And water has probably erased any traces left so nothing can be proven about that neither.

I don´t trust these surveys, especially when conducted by the likes of sifo.

Like it or not, the immigrants will be needed in this country - as well as in most western European countries - however, since it was also revealed in the news on the very same day that the number of people who have reached the age of 100 in Sweden today is 1,500, which is 10 times as many as 40 years ago.

The immigrants will be needed in the workforce to, among other things, take care of the elderly, since most people here appear not to have the time nor the will to take care of their own parents in their old age.

@viking.

your immigration office policy is quite different from what swedish people think. I have done my master studies here in Sweden and now I am a Ph.D student and also working at a company. The immigration office refused to give me a work visa and they said I have to go for a student visa! The big difference for me was that the years you are in sweden on a student visa are counted nothing but if you work here 4 years having a work visa then you can apply for a permanent residence permit. Even though I explained my case and everything, they refused a work permit for me deliberately and now each year I have to renew my student visa( I am also a tax payer though)

While on the other hand, asylum cases and refugees have a lot easier way. One end result is that majorly those with lower education enter sweden easier and then swedish people go around and complain that immigrants are all like this and that.

Add to it that, it is a lot harder for an immigrant to get jobs, then immigrants sink down and down in the society and guess what you think even worse of them.

Anyway, I do not want to make any judgments about immigrants in positive or negative way, just want to point out other aspects that you should consider.

To be honest personally sometimes I regret why I chose Sweden, if I had gone to Canada or Denmark, things were pretty straight forward and I would not have these worries that I have now each year.

Just imagine, I have been here a few years and will be about 3 more years for my phd studies, and during these years have learned about the environment in sweden and also working on my swedish language, besides knowing two other languages, and things like that. So theoretically I should be a good candidate and have less problems but in reality it is different.

Also one fact which is very easily neglected in discussions about immigration for example is that a big amount of publications and projects coming out of swedish universities are done by foreign students which has helped alot with competition of swedish universities with american ones and also across europe. No need to say that the result of those are also applied by different companies in Sweden for needs of ordinary people.

So look at both sides when judging about immigration.

@Fireboy, & @viking

You make some good points. The immigration policy needs to be revamped. Immigration should be eased for those applying from countries with similar cultural & religous values.

The best hope will be that the current Iraqi immigrants as previously stated on the posts are not Muslim but Christian. Whether the cultural influence is a war or a matter of undercurrent influence...the decisivenes of action now will dictate how quickly and to what degree the culture changes.

Does Sweden release the percentage of middle east and african kids in pre-school? I think most would be surprised by the percentage.

My goal with my immigration posts is to push for additional funding for Swedes to have more kids.

I hope Immigration will be on the basis of skill not for the false and intentional asylum seekers !!! Just like north America !!

I feel and see all around that Sweden is getting to be a free home for the Islamic extremists !!

They should be care full in their Immigration policy !!

Good Luck Sweden !!!

Immigration has destroyed all of Europe. May be too late. Again, what has happened to the Vikings? You are being subdued year by year. Islam will enslave you in time.

Africa is a cesspool. 95% of all inventions have originated from Europe and North America. Facts are facts. The rest from China/Asia and India.

Louie Farrakhan and the nutty Nation of Islam claim white folks "stole" all the technology and advances from Africa. Not one shred of evidence to support such nonsense. Not all cultures are equal.

To have migrants into the country,U need to have some STRICT RULES:

1.The people have to be peaceful by nature

2.The people have to be intelligent

3.The people need to be hard working and enterprising

If u have these kind of people migrating to ur country,n u hav rules that facilitate that:

1.Every1 is happy

2.The country grows economically

3. There is stability n certain degree of cultural exchange between the two set of people

The problem in Sweden,is multi-fold:

1.Swedes live in cold environs,which creates less conducive brain functionality to trust anybody bt a small group of people

2.The Immis that come in have been hand-picked in such a way,that they serve the society in the lower-echelons,n r never meant to rise

3.The immis that come-in r from places that have been in severe stress fr centuries, n peace or stable society is a luxury....n hav no real background fr innovation....bcos they hav lived in conservative environs, or places where food,water n happiness r a luxury.

The biggest issue in these environ...is to fight fr trivial issues...n hence non-peaceful

In sweden, people from peaceful places r nt invited...bt people from war-ravaged places come

People frm peaceful n enriching tropical countries,India,Japan,New Zealand etc. hardly form part of the society.

People in these regions r peaceful contributing n in general intelligent n enterprising.

Instead,u hav war-ravaged, bombed individuals ,who already hav grudges on Western world invited.

U will bound to face issues.

Samuel:

Immigrants and natives must also be able to spell right. If any Swede is caught misspelling he should be deported to Thailand.

Hey people, there are reasons for migration, some for relocation with loved ones, for refugee reasons, for education and last but not the least employment opportunities. We should not put all migrants from Africa into the refugee category. Alot of migrants from Africa falls in categories other than refugees and, I am sure most of time have at least a good university education. There are cities in Africa that looks like cities in Europe and most western world, good school, employment opportunities, natural resources the western world needs and a lot more, please refer to pictures of major cities in Africa in search engines and see what Africa looks like. The media mostly report the negative part of africa which is very wrong from my opinion. I am an african and very proud to be an African, we are all created by God and have the right to live and make the world a better place without prejudice, racism and discrimination.

The whole history of humanity globally is one of migration (of people, language, culture, technology, etc). The Moors migrated to Spain and brought with them Al-Gebra, binary code, etc, etc. The Flemish and French migrated to Sweden and brought with them glassblowing, your civil service and many of the words in the current Swedish language! Lutheranism (the Swedish state religion) was imported by invanders from Germany. The Swedes migrated to north America to flee famine and starvation and were welcomed there. Sweden (like other countries) is part of a global economy the food you buy in your shops, the wine you drink, the movies you watch, the tvs and computers you watch them on, the medicine in your hospitals (and, as in the UK, many of the nurses and doctors who run those hospitals and old peoples home) come from outside! Perhaps the Swedish nationalists would like to turn back to clock to some imagined perfect past where you all herded reindeer and lived in tents and carved rune stones! No? Then come into the 21st century like the rest of the world and accept that migration is a normal part of human life for all countries, that people migrate because they want to work and try to help these immigrants to integrate, find work and make a contribution to society (which, I think, is what they mostly want to do) rather than stigmatise/demonise them!

Mike

Good one Nuskin, write more pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

@VikingWarrior: Fireboy's English is perfectly fine. Also, neither you nor Fireboy speak for the Swedish people, so please get down off your high horse.

Best regards,

A Swede

Yes, you write more too Benomax. I think Swedes could learn a lot from Africans. Whenever I've visited Africa I've always been really impressed by how kind and hospitable and welcoming people are to outsiders... inviting you into their homes to eat, etc, etc, with no expectation of 'payment'. Also Africans still look after their old folk (which seems to have been forgotten up here). In contrast I'm really ASHAMED to be (half) Swedish the way the invanders are treated up here. My own personal view (having grown up in Africa) is that up here we're materially rich and socially/culturally poor up here and Africans are culturally/socially rich and materially poor. So perhaps we could learn something from you guys (on how to be human)!

Mike

Nice going Local. Way to edit my post!

All I asked was if Africa was so advanced why is it not a player on the world stage, politically or economically.

You leave Nuskin's complete propagandist comment about the advances made by Africa and the Arabic world, but you remove completely legitimate questions like mine to a racist idiot like Advocator. I guess tough questions need to be ignored in Liberal utopia.

Good thing they're positive about it, because the leftist government is going to ram it down their throat. What is important to them is what Marx wrote not what Swedes want.

Nuskin,

Binary code is a modern convention. I think you mean binary numeral system.

However, again you are wrong. The origins are Indian (Pingala) not Moorish.

In UK we also have this problem. In NL, there is an intelligent man called Geert Wilders. In UK, we still wait for somebody like that.

UK does not have problem with minorities, eg Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Jews, Swedes... The problem is Islamic. So this is not a racist statement. Many difernt nationalities are Islamic, and they are becoming increasingly radicalised and violent.

My question to the Swedes is - when your coutnry has so few Jews or Israelis, and so much crime and rape is carreid out by Islamic and arab immigrants, why are you deflecting all of the world's troubles to Israel? Soon you will be in the same situation, where you are at risk of becoming a minority and the Islamic population a majority. If you surrender, then you become slaves. If you defend yourselves, you become "zionists". Please do not focus on Israel,as your problem is at home.

Mr Viking

I didnt want to mention that specific group - it is no longer a minority and I am not racist. But there is a serious problem, which needs to be dealt with.

My point, rather, is that there are many diverse minorities which have little crime and do not really pose a threat to British society. Hence, the Chinese have very little involvement in crime, unless it is at the level of their own organised crime - but that could apply to italians, Irish etc.

Indian and Sikh immigrants in UK are generally much more peaceful than Islamics.

Black youths have a gang culture which needs to be crushed by the Police or the military - which is better than fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The point i am making is that recognizing crime and evil intent of certain groups is not racist per se. It is honest. If a group has a collective threat to society, it should be stopped. The question is, whether this discussion is about white supremacism (which i am not) or about simple sanity and prevention of dhimmitude, which will happen with the demographic timebomb.

Thats UK statistic about crime rate but, how many of these minorities commit crimes here in Sweden? This is Sweden so lets talk about Sweden, any statistic? Well if non then stop castigating a set minority in Sweden but, rather think of a way of moving Sweden forward.

Viking, not disagreeing with you - and it is a difficult problem, as Afro carribeans have been in UK for 50 years, and it is not ideological crime. My personal answer would be to crush the armed gangs, and deport violent criminals to origins of their grandparents.

But the problem in Eurabia is even bigger. There is free immigration from ME and Africa. These groups have one thing in common - Islam.

My question was, if Sweden has these problems, eg rape, violence, Malmo becoming a swedish Gaza - why is Sweden obsessed with Israel? Will the left wing Swedish government accept independent Islamic republic in Sweden, with Malmo as its capital? And if they do not, then why do they suggest that Jerusalem becomes the capital of palestine?

There are two categories of migrants, you have the illegal migrants and the legal migrants, which category do you refer to? If someone is illegal then that one has no right to live in that country. I am very sure the legal migrants are making good use of their time and effort to contribute to the society. So please lets define the category. I am an African living in Sweden, I have never commited any crime and I do not intend to. I am well educated, I am working, paying tax and also law abiding citizen. Alot of African migrants are in my category also. Lets not use a case to judge the rest. Any one caught commiting any crime should be arrested and jailed if found guilty, and any one who is illegal should be deported period. lets stop these comments and learn to accommodate every one ragardless of race and colour as long as they are not a threat to the society.

Thanks Viking - but you didnt answer my question. Sorry I dont read swedish. I agree with the demographic analysis. My question is why the hell is Swden interfering with Israel's capital, and not worrying about the war on its own turf? A sports match in Malmo, between Sweden and Israel, was attacked by Islamic terrorists, but the Police do nothing , and allow Islamists to virtually take over Malmo. Is it because they have already surrendered to Islam in their own country, that they suggest Israel does the same?

@viking.warrior: I do not have any pernicious agenda, I am a law abiding citizen and I am sure alot of minority migrants are.

@ .viking.warrior: The parliament has allowed migrants to be here and it is the voice of the majority. Maybe you should take your case there for review and if your voice is heard they will look into it, but for now please be law abiding and obey the law and stop being a rebel.

@viking.warrior: I do not have to tell you the reason I left my country, I have said earlie that people migrate for various reasons and I fall in one of those category, certainly not the refugee category. Well attacking innocent migrants will put you in a bigger trouble with the law. So please fight it out with the parliament and leave us alone. For now please obey the law otherwise you will have a case soon with DO. Good nite

Viking,

just to make things more complicated - in Uk, we have many E. .european migrants or workers, from places like Poland, Lithuania, Romania etc, who are violent criminals, rapists, human traffickers etc. They are not Black or Muslim. But they are in the EU. So they have freedom of movement. Many of Poland + Romanis' most wanted criminals are in UK. So it is also a question of poor immigraiton control and security, as well as race and religion.

Viking

here you are :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235632/The-wanted-men-Britain-Hiding-UK-Europes-dangerous-men.html

Now, you didnt answer my question about Sweden's anti_israel politics. Is it that you view all foreign elements as corrupt, and you are only starting with the blacks and arabs? And what business is it of Sweden to dictate to Israel what Israel's capital should be? Have they given Malmo to the morrocans?

what the hell do they need 130 Million immigrants for? There isn't enough space in UK for that. Nor can we afford the crime; the social security; education; healthcare. In any case, even the EU migrant workers, take their money back to EU and dont leave it in UK, so it is not of any benefit to us at all. 130Million - most of which are muslims, will make EU=rabia --> end of story.

Been in sweden few months .Too cold too boring for living ,but people are nice.

It is interesting to see that there is still people who wants to immigrate up there.

@viking, you are totally wrong about what I wrote. I insisted that I do not want to make any judgments here, especially that I am not in a position to do so. I just mentioned my own personal case so that you know the policy that swedish immigration office is following is different in many ways than what you may think and bet many swedes have no idea about it.

You will never know some aspects of it unless you understand issues from both sides : immigrants and natives.

Regarding my english I never claimed it to be good or whatever and I will never do, because it is a second language for me.

You just seem to argue against all other comments so that you can stick to your own beliefs. Just try to think differently at times. I suggest you to stop and consider yourself in place of some of those immigrants and then judge.

Regarding UK I do not know their policy and have not time to read about it either. But they have been exploiting India for a few hundred years, like what France did to some African countries and many easterners think it is payback time for them!

Anyway, even in case of UK I have a swedish friend who went to UK with her wife to work for one year and came back with 2-3 times the salary he could earn in Sweden. So now you say UK should not allow swedes in??

One of the main problems that Sweden has with immigration that Canada does not, is with integration of immigrants with the society. For so many reasons they are left out. I even know many young adults who have been here since age of 3-4 and guess what when I talk with them they admit they never felt swedish.

And honestly, I guess people like viking.warrior make this even more intense. The worst you can do now that there are immigrants in your country is increase the gap between swedes and them.

I totally understand your concerns that you care for your country and it is so ok with me. But imagine how much angry feelings/hatred you may cause in immigrants who are already here with such comments, it makes them feel like all swedish are like that and that even increases problems in Sweden. If you really care for Sweden I bet you would not want this either.

One more personal thing about myself, the reason that I left my country even for continuing my education is that I am an atheist and it was a hell of life living in a Muslim country having totally different mindsets.

Swedes need to have more kids otherwise their culture will die.

Chad, Cyprus, Indian border with Pakistan, Israel, do we want to add Sweden to the list?

130 million immigrants demanded by the EU commission?!!! I want to see the study.

Send some boats to other countries. Offer free housing and help with language and work skills. I'm sure Sweden could reqruite better. Invite unemployed Americans to come to Sweden...a reverse immigration trend strategy!

by the way viking.warrior , one thing that I have noticed a lot whenever I go to the immigration office to renew my visa is that there are plenty of swedish men coming with Thai girls!!!! Also If you look around yourself you will find lots and lots of swedish young males marrying non-swedish girls to create a family. I wonder if you ever stopped to think about this issue which is cultural than political! maybe going to thailand and other countries with warm girls should be banned for swedish men?;) (joking)

-- Didn't you have any problem with immigration when massive amount of swedes moved to America?

- One side question, what do you think of your king having a German wife whose father was German and mother Brazilian? What if she was from Turkey,Iran or even Pakistan? Would you have felt any different?

@viking.warrior: I am not asking you not to express yourself the way you feel and like and, I do not threaten you in any way but, you are the ones threatening migrants by your extremist ideas about not allowing migrants to be in Sweden. Listen, the law has permitted me to be here so what do you want to do about it, remove me? If that is your main goal then I am telling you to please take the matter to the law makers and this is a wrong place for you to express your opinion and fight. The article says: "Swedes positive about immigration". If you do not agree about this then please and please again, take your fight to the law makers. If you harrass any innocent migrant based on your opinion by assualting them, then you have a case with the law because the law protects them too like you. That is why I conclude by saying you are a rebellious person who does not want to abide by the law of the land. Be a good citizen for oncé and drop all your discriminatory ideas and make the world peaceful my friend.

There is nothing wrong with immigrants that come to this nation or any other nation for that matter, with the purpose of offering his services, to do work and contribute to the society they have elected for whatever personal or social reasons call their home.

The problem is the politicians. They have created a problem, where none exists. A brief review of immigration history can prove this point. You just have to extract yourself from the present time and look at this without your own subjective pretext that you have developed, whilst living in a regulated and unfree society.

I believe we should close down Migrationsverket. Just turn off the lights. Strike off all current legislation. Open the borders. But be clever for a change. Make it a priviledge to come here, but expect people to earn their right to get any benefits before freely and unreservedly dishing it out. I believe immigration can regulate itself. You put a price on coming here to work and live. What is the price? I don't know, but probably in the region of 100K to 250K kr for each immigrant. Ask them to pay a license at länstyrelsen to work and live her. Pay it back to them when they have earned citizenship. Make citizenship something you earn when you have lived and worked here long enough. We expect children to be 18 years old before they can be called adults, before they can vote. Let's do the same for people who come here. 18 years to citizenship. Meanwhile, use to proceeds to pay off national debt. It will give you 18 years credit free until you might have to pay it back.

Break the law, violate the rights of other individuals here? Well, the bond can pay for damages. The immigrant cannot pay up to the bond, well, throw him out. If the violation is bad enough the bond is forfeited, he is exiled and we keep the money. It's simple and you don't need Migrationsverket to run with this policy.

Does it sound to harsh? Is it to expensive? Well, for heavens sake, people probably spend the same or more on all the people smugglers today when all they need is buy an SAS ticket and fork up the money on arrival.

Ah, the white man and his supremacist demons!

Calebrian, Pingali is the first WRITTEN account of binary numeral system. But it was used in Africa for centuries (and came to Europe via the Moors). See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system

But you're missing the point, I think. The point being that these (and other important) developments didn't originate in Sweden (or even Europe) but rather arrived with the immigrants (from Africa, the East, etc). For more important developments in maths, science, etc, originating from outside of Europe try running a search on Al Gebra, Ibn Al Haytham, etc, etc

Mike

The stats and the comments make me conclude that the world is running out of white people. The whole of the white world (North America, Europe, etc ) needs immigrants and the available ones are all .. . er . . . dark skinned. And yet only clever white ones are required. What a pickle! What to do? Clever people, am sure they'll figure out something.

White Europe is interesting. But how can what is supposed to be the very best that evolution has produced start dying out? Isn't survival the whole point ? If you prove that you're the best and then you die out, what is the point of that? Situation could have confounded even Darwin himself . . .

Regarding UK, I have no idea since I have never been there so I do not comment. I said that is a common thing among easternes about UK as apparently you quite do not know some of this. Anyway, If you are asking, I am not Indian or Paki so I do not care and regarding sweden, not at all I do not think of sweden that way.

But one thing that I DO know about UK is that they have many big names in academia and research institutes and also many world-famous surgeons, who are not British. The same is true for Sweden especially for doctors and dentists!

fortunately I am not an immigrant here, and I have seen a lot in your writing that you talk like I am an one and I am angry, not satisfied looking for payback,etc. What I am saying is not personal (in personal cases I explicitly said it is so). I just try to reflect some of the things I have seen, heard from immigrants, easterners, ..... to you. But it seems to cannot/ do not want to get out of your prejudice towards immigrants. And FYI I never applied as a refugee or whatever. for my case, I just asked them for work visa not student. Capiche?

I am really sorry that you said those words about me that way in both your messages. I have swedish friends at work and even at times it was me who started discussing that sweden is a good country and needs to be kept that way and stuffs because I had been living in a muslim country and had problems you could never imagine so in some other ways while my swedish friends didn't care that much about it I started talking on these subjects with them. But behaviors like yours makes me , a positive person, even disappointed let alone those with negative thoughts living here in Sweden.

Your last paragraph is totally illogical. You keep judging and judging many things and many people. Like you start your paragraph with "you are not content and you feel we have not done enough for you"" . Just go back and read my first comment again. What I was saying was about conditions of immigration to sweden, which is not necessary based on skills, education or etc and I mentioned my case as an example. so I meant the priorities in Sweden's immigration policy is not skill and education at the moment! And I guess it has never been so far.

if you do not formulate the problems correctly you will never find a solution.Regarding majority in sweden and muslims, you should remember many immigrant in sweden are not moslems. Anyway a better question out of your paragraph could be why birth rate is low in Sweden Which then requires to have immigration? Why many people are flooding from non-european countries here even risking their lives? and so on.....

Learn not to have prejudice and judge people this easily.

so we have a a story headed

"Swedes positive about immigration"

And of course all the usual bigots and racist SD supporters come out of their cesspit's to post on the local saying it is not true.

These pathetic beings can just be ignored, as we know the 99.99% of these idiots are either not Swedes, not living in Sweden or the couple of skinheads that are all so alone that they need to spend a few moments in mutual admiration and think that there is at least one other person in the world who has the same lonely twisted view of life as them.

Mike: "The Moors migrated to Spain and brought with them Al-Gebra, binary code, etc, etc. The Flemish and French migrated to Sweden and brought with them glassblowing, your civil service and many of the words in the current Swedish language! Lutheranism (the Swedish state religion) was imported by invanders from Germany. The Swedes migrated to north America to flee famine and starvation and were welcomed there."

Mike, do you not find any difference between those immigrants and those coming to Scandinavia en masse today? Clue: it has something to do with the welfare state.

If more than one half of Swedes think that immigration is positive for Sweden, what is wrong with that? Maybe, they're right and in general, they know more things than the 40% who think it's negative.

My opinion is that, Sweden needs different kinds of immigrants.

1. the well educated, high tech. skilled people who will ensure growth and industry development.

2. Enterpreneurs with money to invest in Sweden

3. Labor type people, to do jobs Swedes don't want or is sorely lacking.

Of course, Sweden should avoid bigotry and nativism and allow these people to prosper, and move up in the ladder. A laborer son, should be given the opportunity to be more educated or be an enterpreneur in the future. That's how a country will prosper.

If everyone study in detail, the history of immigrants to America, I'm sure that in any group, there are always a few undesirable, rough, swindlers, liers, prostitutes, crooks or simply unsophisticated people. People who immigrate by nature did not do well in their country of origin.

I'll bet there are a few Swedish undesirables who immigrated to America, as well. But far more are decent, hardworking, law abiding, honest folks. That's the same with Mexicans, Chinese, Filipinos, Germans, Irish, Italians, etc. Almost all just want to improve their lives.

Hey can we Croats come to Sweden? We're cousins afterall.

The founder of Haplogroup I lived approximately 25,000 years ago in the Balkans during the last Glacial Maximum. He is the direct descendent of Haplogroup F ancestors who had journeyed from the Middle East into the Balkans. Today, the highest frequencies of Haplogroup I are found in the Balkans, near the Dinaric Mountain chain in Croatia. Haplogroup I is strongly associated with Croat populations, namely Slavic people living in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and other nearby countries.

As the ice sheets retreated at the end of the Ice Age, these ancestors continued their journey northward into Northern Europe, in particular Scandinavia (a region in Northern Europe named after the Scandinavian Peninsula). Today, a large portion of Scandinavian populations in the Adriatic regions, including Denmark, mainland Norway, Sweden, and Finland trace their ancestry to this line. Vikings also likely descended from this line.

Wow. I thought I had issues. Somebody needs to get laid. One more thing. Why oh, why get on the case of foreign scientists who come here, don't ask much, and work their asses off, contributing to the real welfare of Sweden? I know of several foreign scientists and MDs who have worked and studied here and were denied residency based on work but were told they could stay if they had a sambo. So Sweden spends all that money and time on these people and then doesn't even take advantage of their skills.

Give me a D!

Give me a U!

Give me a M!

Give me a B!

What's that spell!?!

CULTURAL HEGEMONY! YAAAAAAAYYY!

Yes, I will quote the Jackson 5: "Get it together, or leave it alone"

And for the record, regarding "Mexicans". I'll revert to the language of my youth: Payback's a bitch, ain't it? People need to read some history around here.

When I move back to the US, I'm going to learn Spanish (for real this time) and try to help Spanish speaking immigrants learn English and get a job. I won't blow any smoke up their ass and they'll know what's expected of them as immigrants, but they'll have somebody who treats them hopefully as an equal. And that is, in fact, half the job finished. I wonder if anyone on this site has seen a crew of Mexican guys put a roof on a house in the middle of August in central Virginia (or anywhere in the Southern US). It's always hotter than hell, and those guys work their asses off, never complain, and hardly break a sweat. I can only respect those men. Plus, they make their own bean burrito lunches with little ovens on their breaks after which they all crash out for a nap. Then, at one thirty sharp, it's like a SWAT team with hammers goes at it again while the others haul entire packs of shingles up ladders to the second story. That is heavy, heavy work and in a way what immigration is all about. They will hue the foundations of their lives out of time, sweat and fantastic homemade Mexican food (something most Swedes have no idea about, haha) and their children will grow up and be doctors or teachers or roofers and you guys will be jerking off on the internet to Sarah Palin. The sock you clean up with will be made in China. Just like Volvos. Bitches.

Hairdont that is all fine and good. However, Europeans were laying roofs in artic conditions. Try that. I will give you the edge in food however but the Italians beat everyone. I do like Selma however I think she is only half Mexican.

I'm sorry about writing "bitches". It was uncalled for. Seriously.

viking warrior,

What I'm merely saying and you agreed is that there are alway a few rotten apples is any group of people. Sure, there will be fewer Swedish tugs, because they are relatively fewer compared to Hispanics. It does not mean that the Swedes are somewhat superior to the others. By the way, the United states is a far bigger country than Sweden, both by land, resources, and opportunities. We also have our own immigration problems in the US, and you can read bias reports on both sides, but it is undeniable, that immigration as a whole

is more positive and it created the United States. Perhaps, Americans learn from their mistakes in the past, with slavery and bigotry, and Sweden will learn the same way.

Of course, we have more crimes, and other things, but they are not isolated among blacks, brown, Mexicans, etc. There are white criminals as well. Poverty, hopelessness, lack of education, victimization, mental illness, and hatred brings the worse of people, irregardless of race.

I think the issue was best summed by Jean Marie Le Penn of France's National Front. 600,000 are not a problem but 6,000,000 is a big problem.

Ehm...

I want to migrate to Sweden, but now I am bit afraid..

From Poland.

Yeah, your car stealing crime rate is going to increase :P

I am reading this and i think about the power of prejudice.

If you are afraid of imigrants, you start to be angry or avoid them. So they start to dislike you. They feel alienated, especially their children. Some day they will go to Iraq and learn how to make a bomb :(

I don't know if realy it's a matter of colour of your skin?

I think that after terrorist atacks we are bit frighted and i'ts a reason that we don't like muslims - but it's way to nowhere, yes? They are frighted too and build more bombs.

Prejudices are working both ways - it would be funny what people from africa think about Sweden. It was funny when i heard them talking about U.S. - complete nonsenses mostly.

Ok, there are some differencies between people. We can use it to build something new, to enrich our country, or to destroy - we have a choice.

Viking have right, there are higher crime statistic for imigrants, especially for african imigrants. But for me it's more interesting why it work like this?

Imigrants usually have more social problems than local people - more suicides, more drugs and alcohol, more crimes. If you want to have imigrants in your country, you cannot avoid it - you can only think how to minimalise the risk.

I have read many times, that Sweden need imigrants - so, maybe i'ts matter of balance - if you want to have high pension, scientist and people who want do the job that no Swede likes, you can only try to minimalise negative side effects. Swedish government do it in many way - the are clever, for example they have SFI. But if normal people have been more open and less afraid, it would help greate.

I have read some articles of Zaremba - Den Polske Rormokaren och andra berattelser fran Sverige :P

Excuse me, so you should kill all imigrants or throw them away, or

you should try to kick out this criminals and try to help the rest with integration?

http://cjr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/14/1/13

some researches.

most of this crimes are committed by youth, second generation of imigrants. Why? Because they have no proper education, and their parents had no time for parenting, because they work hard to achieve their position in new country.

But their parents worked hard, like the Swedish immigrants did in U. S. did years ago.

You know, these rape statistics would decline if Swedish guys would stop looking so FABULOUS all the time.

Your use of logic is a tribute to the intelligence of logs everywhere.

Stay fabulous.

Almost 90% of all robberies reported to the police were committed by gangs, not individuals. "When we are in the city and robbing we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes." This argument was repeated several times. "Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet." The boys explain, laughingly, that "there is a thrilling sensation in your body when you're robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if you've succeeded, it simply feels good." "It's so easy to rob Swedes, so easy." "We rob every single day, as often as we want to, whenever we want to." The immigrant youth regard the Swedes as stupid and cowardly: "The Swedes don't do anything, they just give us the stuff. They're so wimpy."…

^&*()$%#@! I realize that these comments are given by a young rebel but multiply this by a factor and you get our future unless the flow is actively halted.

@viking.warrior: Okay you speak out your mind, carry placards and go on air, continue your freedom of expression against migrants. I wish you all the best in your agenda. Somebody like you should not hold any international position or work for UN or other international organisation because you are far from uniting the world and making it a peaceful place to live but, please do not allow it to lead to assault because the law will definitely take its course on you. Good luck and "god jul".

Hauki: the Swedish welfare state is RUN by (hard working) invanders. That's the point! Sweden NEEDS invanders to run your hospitals, old peoples homes, homehelp, etc, because the young people up here don't want to do that kind of work. Try visiting Dahlens sjukhus for old people if you don't believe me. The place is run by very pleasant and hard working and cheerful Latino nurses. Or try visiting Bjorkhagen wardcentral- very pleasant Chilean nurse runs that. Or Sodersjukhuset which seems to be staffed by lots of very pleasant and hard working Finns. Perhaps we should be asking what economists would call the 'counterfactual scenario'. What would happen if these immigrants left (or were deported). Answer: the Swedish welfare system would collapse! That's the point!

Mike

Viking- the Daily Mail is not exactly unbiased or particularly higbrow press. It's tabloid popular press with explicitly right-wing leanings. Returning to Sweden...

... the SOFI (internationally respected academic think-tank with no political bias) statistics show quite clearly that Sweden will need 100,000 more immigrants to maintain current welfare levels!

Mike

Viking- yes those sources look more kosher (hope the Jewish reference doesn't offend you! :-) ) But (as an academic) I'd like to see the whole article, not a couple of quotes taken out of context and clearly this is a cock up in the NHS so I'd be cautious about generalising from one cock up and drawing general policy conclusions based on that, let alone extending these to Sweden (in support of some racist/bigoted rhetoric). Surely the WELFARE point is that we should be recruiting the best people for the job. Which in many cases means recruiting internationally (as the best hospitals do in the US, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Brazil, etc, etc, do). The last two ops I had in the UK I was treated by an Indian and Nigerian doctor, respectively. Both were very pleasant and bright and competent and I was very happy with the treatment. So, in my view, any kindof quota (for example favour UK born over foreign born) actually minimises welfare. So, in reply to Waspy, I don't think it matters whether you recruite within the EU or cast your net wider so long as the best person for the job is recruited. My point: you're muddying the waters by mixing up what is good for Sweden in terms of welfare (ie casting your net wide and recruiting the best available person for the job internationally, which already happens in commerce, it, etc) with a nationalistic/xenophobic point (which I think is your real agenda).

A lot of stats (mostly taken out of context are being used in this thread) to support a lot of racist/xenophobic/bigoted rhetoric. So I'll wind up with a couple of very clear stats:

- Invanders in Sweden are net CONTRIBUTORS in terms of tax revenue.

- Sweden (like other countries) suffers labour shortages in certain sectors of the economy. If, as seems to be the case, these can't be fully met from the Swedish labour pool then welfare of Swedish citizens will be maximised by recruiting internationally (on the basis of the best person qualified for the job is employed)

If, as the statistics suggest, invanders are needed to maximise the welfare of Swedish citizens I find it very difficult to see how they can be considered a bad thing. Unless, of course, you're real point is a xenophobic/racist one: that you don't like dark skinned people and their cultures. If so, at least have the integrity to 'own' (to use Dr Phil- Sweden's most famous tv invander- speak) your racism/xenophobia rather than using questionable stats from studies abroad taken out of context to support your racist/xenophobic rhetoric!

Mike

Mike: " the Swedish welfare state is RUN by (hard working) invanders. That's the point! Sweden NEEDS invanders to run your hospitals, old peoples homes, homehelp, etc, because the young people up here don't want to do that kind of work."

Mike, quite frankly, I don't think that's the case. For every immigrant working in an old people's home, there's several unemployed, just claiming state benefits.

Also, and I hate to point this out, nursing etc. does not contribute anything to the GDP. It's all funded by the taxpayer. In a sense these services are a welfare state luxury.

Hauki, I think there are two issues here. The real 'problem' in Sweden is the cradle to the grave social welfare system (which has many welfare benefits but also has fiscal and other costs). Taking the fiscal costs, invanders are net contributors in terms of tax revenue. That's just fact. Also there are labour deficits in the welfare system, some of which is/are met by invanders. Those are just facts!

For a nice example of how a foreign (Egyptian) born invander has made an enormous contribution to the UK National Health System check out heart surgeon Magdi Yacoub:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdi_Yacoub

... who (working within the NHS system) has made great advances in life-saving heart transplant surgery techniques, some of which have made their way up to these frozen parts, I'm told! :-)

Surely the real issue is not the colour of your doctor or nurses skin or where they were born but, rather, that when you get sick you get good and competent treatment at minimum cost to taxpayer. If that means recruiting internationally I can't see how that can be a bad thing! Or??

Mike

@Roy E Honestly ????… QUOTE :

"A people and/or society that cannot sustain its own population - let alone grow it - is by definition dysfunctional and has sentenced itself to extinction………….. Healthy things grow. Sick things wither and die. " UNQUOTE

What an outrageous attack on yourself!! You've failed to see the 'log in your own eye.' How do you think Sverige is fairing in the argumentyou put forward ?

Also you attempt to put forward Darwinism to validate your view in an odd way actually....Darwinism classically advocates the idea of evolve or be extinct!

Everything and everybody, immigrants, emigrants, hosts etc...nothing stays the same forever. Or they do indeed die. Populations are characteristically dynamic. Africa, Asia, America, Europe and of course Sweden are always in transition . ALL THE TIME. And aint a God darn thing NOBODY can do to stop it. No matter what walls you build. (you just end up isolating yourself anyway)

People moving to more 'fertile lands' is no new phenomena. Its human nature! Pity you think you believe it is an exclusive right.

Happy New Year

"Surely the real issue is not the colour of your doctor or nurses skin or where they were born but, rather, that when you get sick you get good and competent treatment at minimum cost to taxpayer. If that means recruiting internationally I can't see how that can be a bad thing! Or??"

Mike, obviously that is not a bad thing. A bad thing is when immigration consists of people who are in need of nursing (or schooling, or social security money, or etc.) themselves.

@viking

OMG..You are clearly no NAZI...lol.

"We do not need ANY third world immigration let alone MASS third world immigration; in reality it has brought NO benefits .."

Ha ha ha...They will come anyway and there is sweet naff all you can do to stop it; for all your crying. They are already here and staying!

By the way "Aftonbladet" is still a TABLOID the last time I checked and hope you DO understand the concept of "tabloids"? Good on football, hockey, sensationalism etc.. poor on fact. FACT.

Typical of them type papers - sensationalise rape because its emotive. Mix it with another sensational topic- like ohh immigration. And voila "VikingWarrior" is hooked!

Do you know how simple minded that makes you??

Hauki- I can't argue with that. I think Swedish immigration and welfare policy is quite intelligent, actually, and based on maximising welfare for Sweden. So, personally, am quite happy to take the SOFI study at face value!

Happy New Year!

Mike (this will be my last post cos I have to get back to my work of the paid for variety, which is actually looking at poverty reduction/food security in Africa...)

@Viking

Please...please name calling has added NO weight to your argument thus far. In fact it is the EXACT equivalent of the stone throwing you you have laboured on about here ie. vile but gets you sweet naff all but ridicule really.

I am dumbfounded and must apologise to you. Had nt realised how broadly read you are..."Aftonbladet" and "The Local" - GENIUS!!

Have you smelt the coffee in the air, or are you still one of those asleep? You are out numbered even in HERE in this forum, have a look how many you are up against here! No wonder you are so fearfully, but I actually feel sorry for you.

You can believe all you want in your OWN superiority whilst sitting in your soiled underwear barricaded in your home because thoughts of 'the communists' coming to get you...lol.

And the rape of "your" women??! No fella, they are OUR women and those that rape and throw stones (figuratively and actually) are not OUR people. No society wants them. Just like we dont want weavers of hatred. Hate crimes, rape, stone throwing, ALL are crimes. And society tends to put them away sooner or later.

Your 'challenging' reading material sadly wont tell you these sensationalist stories have been tried and tested historically to instill fear and suspicion of anything that was outside the mould of what society knew.

This time round its clearly worked with you and made them a small fortune peddling garbage to the 'great minds' that read whatever they print.

The arbitry walls you built around yourself are falling mate BIG TIME so I undestand your insecurity because you know YOU CANT WIN....WILL NEVER WIN.

'Viking'

You brought up RAPE time and time again matey...

You cant say tongue in cheeks stuff on 3rd Worlders and hope noone out here catches the undertones of your messages of hate.

The description..."marauding hordes intent on little more than raping and pillaging." has been used to describe people (NOT in Aftonbladet tyvaar!!) I wont spoil it for you by telling you who's been described so. Birds coming home to roost.

Happy New from life outside the Bunker...

Viking

OMG...what are you like?...thought you said you had separated yourself from the 'our' women thing?

I feel so SORRY for you mate...ok you win!!!!

......I give up.You are ABSOLUTELY right 3rd Worlders are naturally conditioned rapist, uneducated with nothing to contribute but servitude (from a safe distance) so should stay where they belong....As for all you 3rd worlders already here, must seriously consider packing their bags because of all the problems Aftonbladet has 'clearly' identified......

I will sleep very soundly knowing you are NOT sleeping well.

Cheers for

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......