• Sweden edition

Swedish employers shun foreign grads: study

Published: 18 Jan 10 13:02 CET | Double click on a word to get a translation
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/24444/20100118/

The Swedish job market has become tougher for degree-holding immigrants in the last decade, a new report shows.

Only 50 percent of immigrants with college degrees were employed in 2007, compared to 85 percent for Swedish-born graduates, according to a study carried out by the white collar labour union Jusek, whose members include graduates in law, business, economics, computer science, human resources, and the social sciences.

Jusek also found that immigrants had a six-times greater risk of being out of work than Swedes. In 2001, by contrast, the difference was only twice as great.

“It’s easier for employers to hire someone who is more like them,” Jusek chair Göran Arrius told The Local.

Despite a 31 percent increase in the number of immigrants with college degrees in Sweden between 2001 and 2007, there was a 6 percent drop in the number of foreign-born graduates with jobs, compared to a 5 percent increase for college graduates born in Sweden.

“We now live in a society that takes a harder view toward immigrants,” Jusek chair Göran Arrius told The Local, although he refused to speculate as to why.

“Employers seem to be more discriminatory than they were before.”

Swedish employers’ preference for home-grown college graduates isn’t only restricted to hiring decisions, but also shows up when it comes to salary, the study also revealed.

While nearly a quarter of Swedish social science graduates earn 500,000 kronor ($70,000) or more, only about one in ten non-Swedish social science graduates earn as much.

In addition, nearly 60 percent of foreign-born social science graduates find themselves stuck in the study’s lowest income bracket earning 240,000 kronor per year or less, compared with only 30 percent of Swedish-born graduates.

Arrius pointed out, however, that discriminatory attitudes on the part of employers are just one of several factors which make it harder for non-Swedish graduates to gain a foothold in the Swedish job market.

“I think language is the main cause. If you’re a lawyer, language is critical to your work. But current SFI courses aren’t appropriate. There needs to be something at a higher level,” Arrius explained, referring to the Swedish for Immigrants language courses offered to immigrants to help them integrate into Swedish society.

He added that Jusek is calling for the creation of specialized Swedish language courses for immigrants that are geared toward educated professionals.

Degree-holding immigrants also face the challenge of getting Swedish employers to recognize and approve credentials earned in other countries.

The study highlighted the case of Ahmad Ghasimi, an Iranian economist who arrived in Sweden in 1994 with 20 years of experience and ended up working as a part-time language instructor in part because he was repeatedly told to give up any thought of working within his speciality.

“The employment advisor said time and again that I should forget any type of work within economics,” Ghasimi said in the report.

He eventually earned a Swedish university degree in political science before his Iranian economics degree was validated ten years later, finally allowing him to land a job in the finance department of a municipality.

There are many cases similar to Ghasimi's, according to Jusek’s Arrius, who argued that more needs to be done to allow degree-holders from other countries to augment their education to suit the Swedish system without having to repeat it entirely.

“We also need special equivalency courses that allow lawyers and economists and the like to gain recognized credentials without having to repeat the whole of their higher education in Sweden,” he explained.

Arrius suspected that age may also be a factor contributing to the lower employment rate for foreign-born college graduates, 41 percent of which are under 25-years-old, whereas very few Swedes complete their studies before turning 25.

But the comparative speed with which immigrants complete their education doesn’t seem to help their chances of landing a job in Sweden.

“Being young and an immigrant doesn’t work in your favour if you’re a college graduate,” said Arrius.

The lack of a network and contacts with potential employers is also a big stumbling block for many foreign job seekers with college degrees.

“Networking and creating networks is critical,” said Arrius.

“One of the most important things to finding a job is having a good network.”

He added that Swedish workers have “nothing to fear” when it comes to foreign workers, pointing out that the Swedish labour market will becoming increasingly dependent on foreign labour in the years to come.

“They shouldn’t be afraid of foreign degree holders because the generation born in the 1940s is retiring and there is a great need for well-educated workers to take jobs in companies and the public sector,” he said.

David Landes
news@thelocal.se
+46 8 656 6513

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13:33 January 18, 2010 by Puffin
If you want to work in a professional job in Sweden then you need to speak Swedish at an appropriate level.

SFI was never designed for professionals as it is a basic beginners course that corresponds to grade 6 or 7 of the school system - in what other countries would people assume they could work without high school language skills?

There need to be some other options that are perhaps organised at county level of through Universities as many kommuns do not have the resources or number of graduates to make intensive graduate courses worthwhile. There needs to be a wider access to SFA courses
13:50 January 18, 2010 by uunbeliever
SFI is a joke. Not only is it a waste of time but a waste of taxpayers money. I went through the SFI system, I know it it useless. First day: "Today we will learn what is in the refrigerator, cheese, milk, eggs. . ." Coming to Sweden with an education I was forced to sit in these classes and try not to kill myself. So, after passing SFI in three months I asked if I could go into Svenska A with swedish students. The responce? "No, you must go to Svenska A as a second language" which is ok but takes twice as long. 2 years for swdish A and B? So I found the program at Linköping University that does all from no swedish to swedish B and civics A in one year!

How is it possible that someone can sit in SFI for 5 years? Its called being LAZY!

End SFI and get people to take some initiative!

PS, to swedes, If you hear me trying to speak Swedish DON'T REPLY IN ENGLISH!
13:55 January 18, 2010 by krow
@Puffin. what has engineering terms got to do with swedish or english. The fact that immigrants with better qualifications than swedes are not accepted at work place is not a secret.

Most immigrants who are enrolled as masters students in sweden probably have received a masters in their home country before coming to sweden. I think it is not fair and the system should be look into.

I also see the biggest joke of the century for swedish universities to take school fees when the foreign students can not be guaranttee any job after the studies. Why waste the resources coming to sweden.
14:05 January 18, 2010 by Buccaneer
It's easier for employers to hire someone who is more like them," Jusek chair Göran Arrius told The Local.

"We now live in a society that takes a harder view toward immigrants," Jusek chair Göran Arrius told The Local, although he refused to speculate as to why.

"Employers seem to be more discriminatory than they were before."

Give me a break. When you say it is easier for employers to hire someone who is more like them, what are you actually saying. Well, it is not so hard to guess what you really mean. You dont need a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

What do you expect in a society were immigrants are looked upon as the enemy?

What do you expect when employers will rather employ a less qualified swedish born employee over a better qualified foreign born employee?

Well, what you eventually get in such a society are failed systems like the SAAB's and Volvo's. That is what happens when the blind leads the blind.

LOL.
14:12 January 18, 2010 by shawnywills
I'm new to The Local and read this with some worry / concern. I currently live in the UK and work as a commercial lawyer, however, my boyfriend and I plan to move over to Sweden in approximately 2 years time. Currently, I speak some Swedish and have been learning with the intention of becoming as fluent as I can before we move.

However, its very difficult to find Swedish lessons in the UK (I'm based in London and they only seem to go up to a basic conversational level!!) and so I've currently resorted to teaching myself with various programmes! I realise that I'm possibly not going to be totally fluent, and worry about finding work as an advokat, once I'd converted to Swedish law.

I'd be really interested in getting a perspective from those of you who have been through the process? Obviously it will be harder than if its your native country/ language, but I'm very nervous about leaving a great job in London, to move to umemployment.

Thanks loads.

(Obviously another love refugee trying to find her way!)
14:26 January 18, 2010 by Rebel
Oh now be nice. Swedes are some of the most independent, creative, and innovative people on earth. Okay, sorry, I was going to continue my satire but I just could not bring myself to try to do so.

In reality, Swedes are quite insular. They tend to want to learn about other peoples while traveling or in classes, but they feel threatened by them if they have to interact too closely with them. And I am talking about the way Swedes deal with Americans, Canadians and Brits -- I can imagine how they would react if they had to deal with Slavs, Perisians or Arabs in an intimate working environment.
14:32 January 18, 2010 by witsltd
@shawnywills

You will need to be fluent. I am not a lawyer, I work with quality and processes. But even so, I face some serious problems. Any business related to domestic Sweden is documented in Swedish and majority of the meetings and so on are held in Swedish.

Lucky there is a lot of international business.

I believe you will need to learn local specifications of Law, just like doctors. I know some very highly qualified doctors who had to spend 3-4 years to become eligible for working. And after that you sort of start from zero.

I dont want to discourage you, but I really dont see why a commercial lawyer would leave London for Stockholm.
14:56 January 18, 2010 by Malmoimm
The should recognise that there is 2 different issues here. First is the language. Obviously you need to speak the language that is used in the office you want to work in (who you acheive this is a giant ball of BS, the SFI system does not work in this regard) .

But second is the issue about qualifications. Making people redo degrees for things like economics and the sciences is total BS. No matter the language the information and theories are the same so an economics degree from a decent university in a foreign country should be recognised as the equivilant degree here. No matter if they took the courses in persian, english, german or chinese. They can develop a professional exam for things like lawyers, doctors and the such where there are big differences between countries on the pratice of these professions. This is not hard, many countries have such exams.
14:57 January 18, 2010 by Puffin
@shawnywills

There are some university courses in Swedish in London - Westminster University runs evening classes up to advanced levels.

@know

Did I say anything about engineering terms? I think not. If you can read all the documentation and participate in meetings then there is no problem - if you can't then you need to learn the local language.

I know of few universities in the world who gurantee their students a job after graduation - espcially since the Swedish taxper gave you FREE tuition. If you wish to work in Sweden poast graduation why not take some of the FREE Swedish classes offered by universities.

@uunbeliever

SFI can be very variable - depends on the kommun - some courses are great whereas others are less so

It's a pity you were given WRONG information - of course you can study with Swedes after SFI. All of my post SFI Swedish classes were taken with Swedes (GRUV/Gymnasiet A and Gymnasiet B)
15:31 January 18, 2010 by zircon
If you can't beat them, join them.
15:40 January 18, 2010 by krigeren
I think people here are barking up the wrong tree. Why waste years of your life learning Swedish at a business level, getting another degree, all in the end so you can wind up with a lower paying job then your native born Swedish contemporaries? (Sure, learn Swedish so you can get by....but trying to fit in will waste years of your life, your future pension amount, etc).

If you are going to play the game in Sweden you have to make your own rules and play by them. Sit down and list your assets as a person...what makes you competitive as compared to Swedes that makes you stand out and employable.....

What we need here are more immigrant businesses hiring other immigrants in professional fields. The problem with that is Sweden is such an unattractive country to do business in that very few foreign entrepreneurs will actively decide to base their enterprises in Sweden. You have to have a special kind of person here under special circumstances...those with in depth knowledge of the way things work, who take risks, and are willing to give people a chance.

The tired arguments of learn Swedish, become Swedish, are only for those people who are so desperate they have no other choice to fit in...OF COURSE, its handy to have a command of the language..I beleive every foreigner here has somethign unique to offer this country. I beleive I have more to teach them then they do to teach me. I hope all foreigners take that same attitude and do something with it that benefits themselves and the economy here economically....

This article is another example of no matter how hard you try the odds are against you here as an immigrant.....the whole story is the immovable object against the irresistible force. There is a whole different approach.....if you want a strong economy in Sweden you need to export...who knows more about foreign markets....some Swede born here or someone from that foreign market with a marketing background? Any company here that is export oriented why would they choose Swedish as a corporate language..that's just stupid.

The most valuable jobs in Sweden are those creating products, services, and content that will reach the shores of other lands....what a waste for that Iranian guy to end up in a finance position in a Kommun...Volvo or Saab should have had him writing white papers on why the Iranian government should be driving their vehicles....etc.

Anyway..I hope immigrant leaders, myself included, help other immigrants get ahead. Fortune turns against you make your own fortune.
16:00 January 18, 2010 by calebian22
@uunbeliever

"PS, to swedes, If you hear me trying to speak Swedish DON'T REPLY IN ENGLISH!"

So true. I have found that asking them, "Är min svenska så dåligt?" does the trick however. They switch back to Swedish.
16:48 January 18, 2010 by Britswedeguy
A company I worked for in Sweden - a Swedish company - actually used to hold meetings mainly in English so as to accomodate the non-Swedish speakers.

Now, if it was your country, how would you feel about that - about your language not being used in your country?

If you bend over backwards too much you can expect to be ****ed in the a**.
16:48 January 18, 2010 by chapora
Actually the issue is not in whether you speak Swedish but whether you speak Swedish with a recognised Swedish dialect. If after studying Swedish for a few years you are still talking with a heavy Northern English dialect, for example, then you might as well count yourself in with those that have no Swedish at all. Swedes have little or no tolaration for non Swedisg dialects so after 10 years hear I dont speak Swedish with my friends/business associates as it only looses me respect. Most if not all can speak English so for an English speaker the battle is not to be speaking their lingo but to understand it to a god level then ánswer back in English. If they cant understand you in English then your dialected Swedish will do.

Point is get the dialect right and you will have nailed it. If your are considering coming from London to Sweden.... in a word dont bother save it for the holidays, you will be much happier and more prosperous staying in London. And if Sven can manage staying in Blighty dont belive that things will be as easy for you in Sweden as they are for him in London.
16:53 January 18, 2010 by gookha
No doubt....learning the language is critical. But in most of the cases this is just a mere excuse for the employers to kick out job applications from immigrant and/or foreign born nationals. This is the bitter truth about the Swedish job market my dear friends....sorry to say that...
17:05 January 18, 2010 by Beynch
@calebian22: Är min svenska så dåligt? `Svenska` in this case would be of the grammatical gender utrium, and the adjective inflection would be without the "t". Thus; Är min svenska så dålig?"
17:06 January 18, 2010 by sagar
@shawnywills

Try Firm doing Business in International Law in Stockholm.

Also there are a lot of Law Firm doing International Commercial Arbitration, I guess thats your best bet ...
17:15 January 18, 2010 by Kibiri
You speak Swedish with an accent, not with a dialect.
17:39 January 18, 2010 by Douglas Garner
Kibiri... In general I agree, you speak with an accent... but with Swedish as with English your accent also has a distinct dialect.
17:40 January 18, 2010 by Tiddler
I think krigeren has it spot on.

Immigrants from whatever country come up against the glass ceiling, regardless of how well they speak and understand the language.

To make any kind of good money here (50k plus per month), or have any kind of fulfilling life you must either:

1) Work for somebody but play to your strengths in your own language, exåprt sales as mentioned being an example

or 2) Start your own business

The option is as krigeren puts it, years of wasted study and deep disatisfaction and resentment when your head does come up against that ceiling. It's a little girls and boys club here, and you AINT in it.
17:47 January 18, 2010 by chapora
"You speak Swedish with an accent, not with a dialect. "

No a dialect as in a Skånska dialect. The point being Swedish spoken in an English/Italian/French etc accent for most Swedes is difficult to understand due to their low exposure to international cross culture. So therefore one needs to adapt a dialectical approach to conversing with people born in Sweden in order to be understood. And actually if we are to be pedantic the language spoken in Sweden is Scandinavian with a Swedish dialect and it's sub dialects. But nationalism and zenophobia has created an environment that assumes that Sweden has in some way a language that was born within and confined into the current Swedish borders. In SFI they told us that Swedish and Norwegian were related languages like German and English are. Not that they were one and the same language with regional differences like English spoken in Yorkshire and that which is spoken in Cornwall.
18:21 January 18, 2010 by amirhosein
I didn't expect guaranteed jobs after graduation, as an international master's student here. And of course, I can understand the Swedes being somehow prejudiced about the Swedish language, and I can learn it.

What concerns me most, is the wide gap between Swede and non-Swede salaries.

"While nearly a quarter of Swedish social science graduates earn 500,000 kronor ($70,000) or more, only about one in ten non-Swedish social science graduates earn as much."

???!
18:27 January 18, 2010 by skatty
I actually don't get what the article means with "the number of immigrant with college degrees in Sweden between 2001 and 2007"; is it talking about immigrant with degree from another country, who immigrated to Sweden or immigrant, who have studied in Sweden and got their degree in here?

I mean even the immigrants, who got their degree in Sweden can't get job, what about they, who got their degrees somewhere else! I should say that Sweden (Scandinavia) is the worst place to be ended up for higher educated people from developing countries, no matter to be educated in or out of Sweden. Not only the language is a huge barrier but also the social, cultural and economical structure is unwilling to accept immigrants in the same level of Swedes, and it's more obvious between the higher educated than lower educated immigrants. The willingness and attitude of Swedish social structure is to push immigrants to the bottom of the society as much as possible; no matter of the ability, talent, time investment and struggle of immigrants!
19:10 January 18, 2010 by voidplay
@Britswedeguy

Very few companies in the world today use their local language exclusively,

If you are not aspiring to be working in MC. D. or B. King and if you 'have' to learn swedish then it means you better be looking elsewhere.

Let us look at how this works .....

Sweden protects its industries like vattenfallen, Skanska and let them monopolize the contracts .... nobody complains

Swedes also help being loyal to their brands like Volvo, Saab ...

The companies are only returning the favour ;-)

Hmm this isn't restricted to Sweden any country with a developed economy and a well educated population is protective and 'loyal', It is not very unusual to hear about 'saving American jobs' that seem to sell so well in the US. Globalisation and free trade are only talk when they want to trade cheap commodities like oil, ore or coal or want to dump last years excess corn or last decades military equipment. It becomes BS when there is competition from China, Korea or India.

Sweden just happens to take it a bit too far because they can ..... because no one will complain.

Most Swedish companies are export oriented and you better be looking elsewhere if you 'will' have to become an expert in Swedish.
19:40 January 18, 2010 by Mack
My GF has a masters in Engineering from both Riga and KTH in Stockholm. She works for the city, speaks excellent Swedish, gives interviews to media in Swedish, works twice as much as most Swedes in her department and makes about 25% less. When she complains they can't explain why she makes less but nothing ever changes.
19:46 January 18, 2010 by krigeren
Well. If we all got together and staged mass demonstrations that would wake'em up.
19:52 January 18, 2010 by MD1
If there is what theorists in this article describe as "discrimination" in the job market, why would immigrants bother taking more intensive Swedish courses? Of course it is natural for a government to support its citizens more during a time of financial crisis as opposed to immigrants. I hope the government would mislead immigrants to think what keeps them from professional work are simply language courses.
19:54 January 18, 2010 by voidplay
@krigeren

Demonstrations will not help be like the Japanese, go make some neat chips and electronics. And don't give out contracts to those who din't give it to you.

And then probably invent your own language called 'veryhard2perfect' and expects everyone to master it before doing business with you.

That was just a joke....

Or may be just wait for the Chinese to become the next Japanese, and by the way don't bother with the Swedish just learn some Chinese, may be they will have some potato peeling job for you ;-)
20:20 January 18, 2010 by speedygonzales
now it is clear, after this article, that Sweden has fascist tendencies in society. If high educated have such problem, you can imagine level of discrimination for low educated people. Low educated can only become criminals, they don't have other choice.
20:53 January 18, 2010 by krigeren
@voidplay I agree with you...sweden needs to be an export economy again...it used to be an export economy and then there were opportunities for foreigners.

However, Sweden is in a state of economic contraction and has been for some time. THe government here is twice the size of the EU15 in terms of the number of jobs dependent upon it. If you remove 15% of the GDP from the bloated government (funny, huh, government jobs are calculated in GDP) then one can see the standards here are truly very low.

While there is the economic argument there also has to be a political one because the Swedes are asleep at the wheel of this economy and the change is only going to come from outside...like what happened with African Americans in the Southern USA in the 1960's. The challenges here are greater...getting the Iraqi's to walk hand in hand with the Iranians who live here...getting the Jews and the Muslims to work together...uniting them under the common cause of the tyranny of discrimination and segregation...yes..tough but not impossible.
21:33 January 18, 2010 by calebian22
@beynch

HA, jag är så dålig(t), kanske. The thing Swedes need to remember though, until they speak English like a native speaker, they should get off their high horse regarding some of the finer points of their own language. I know my Swedish is not great, but Swedes speak English like Swedes, not like Brits, Aussies or Americans. They should be a little more forgiving considering their own idiosyncratic English pronunciations.
21:41 January 18, 2010 by bjinger
very shorking but understandable, Sweden is a small country though very often speaks in tone of being big.
21:42 January 18, 2010 by Buccaneer
@shawnywills

Happy for you that you are in love but my advise to you is STAY IN LONDON AND ENJOY YOUR LIFE.

If your partner loves you let him stay in the UK with you. Enjoy your life in the UK and save yourself the trouble that you will go through in Stockholm.

You will never be accepted into the society in Sweden, the Swedes are COLD PEOPLE and you will always be an outsider.

Save yourself the trouble and live your live among people who would appreciate you.

Visit Sweden when you can but never live here. The way you see Swedes outside Sweden is very different from how they behave when they are in sweden.
21:53 January 18, 2010 by The Nine
Sad but true. I was actually told by a prospective employer that they would always employ the best Swedish applicant even if they were not the best over all applicant. They seemed to think that was acceptable and in no way racist or biased.
22:27 January 18, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
Well, sadly speaking, I was thinking that Swedes are not biased or a racist approach towards immigrants since I was there as a "tourist".

Yet, It seems being a tourist is a lot different than being an applicant for a job in Sweden.

Surprisingly, with having 3 degrees; 2 BSc. and 1 MSc., it seems it's not that sufficient for a mediocre position in Sweden.

I must admit to the article that it seems Swedes are creating their own ghettos too in job environments.

Swedes must understand that they should let immigrants unite with the swedish society, other than that, both sides will have their own ghetto and no economical breakthrough will emerge in this world economic crisis.

Regards.
22:39 January 18, 2010 by Ben Mowbray
Employers are always going to pick the most convenient candidate - i.e. one who has the right skills, and that you don't have to clarify everything to because Swedish is not their native language. It's common sense really.

I've spent six months in SFI, did Svenska som andra språk A and B in 18 months, and took a whole slew of other classes, such as math A, B and C, civics, english (yes, well, easy grades there to pull up my average), biology and general science. The idea was to get my language up to the right level to get into university (which is free!!!!). I was trained in IT and Web Design in Australia. Useful skills for at home, but I quickly flushed those careers down the toilet.

I spent four years unemployed, before I got a job at a local cinema running projectors. I only got that through word of mouth.

I don't expect to get a job when I graduate, I expect to have to start my own business, but I'll be making loads of connections during my education.

I come from down under, and it's quite a hike from here. If I was English on the other hand, and did not already have a position waiting for me, I'd never have moved here and wasted six years of my life learning in Swedish what I already knew in English. England's just a stone's throw away from here. I have a mate who's English who regularly gets to go home and visit; I can afford a trip once every other year, and I don't get to take any other holidays... A Swede will most definately have an easier time in London than in the reverse.
22:44 January 18, 2010 by browneyes10
I was quite positive about Sweden and Swedish before but honestly speaking I am now totally on the other side in just a 1 year. There are lot of things and news everywhere of such discrimination and I am wonder why it is not checked by high up authorities.

As I said now I am totally on the other side because of the reality and facts which I faced personally. Believe me if you dont know swedish langauge, the Swedes will not talk you nor listen you. A couple of weeks before when I try to find some job, the first question which was asked by the owner of that shop, in a very racist and stupid way was that did you know Swedish langauge? My reply was that well yes I am taking my basic classes and I am the beginner in that. He very un-ethically and rudely return back my CV to me and says that than you dont need to apply for this..job.

So it really hurts me when I see such kind of people that despite of their high level of education and living in high profile country, still they have a very narrow mind.

They are just insisting on their language even if you want to apply for a dish cleaning job. I cant understand this philosophy.

Finally, who will want to learn totally new langauge for just 9 million people in the world, just to have a dish cleaning job like and still what is the guarantee that after langauge you will get a job.
23:17 January 18, 2010 by loddfafnir
My own experience with other foreign professionals has been mixed. Some are very well schooled in theory while others most likely got their degree from the back of a cereal packet. What has been the shortcoming of a good number is the ability to think for themselves and apply their knowledge in a practical way. In my travels I see that this is the way many cultures operate. It doesn't work here in Sweden. If you want respect - and thereafter pay and rewards - you have to show your employer that you have earned it and not just expect it because you have a piece of paper to say you can do the job.

Many people initially come to Sweden because they "have to". For them, life can be especially hard for the simple reason they don't really want to be here. So trying to assimilate seems pointless, since they are going to leave as soon as they can. But many stay on anyway (for one reason or another) and then try to get into the system they have knocked for so long. Not surprising then that they both have it hard and an ingrained negative attitude.

I can't understand the complaints about the "cold Swedes" who never talk to them, are hard to make friends with, etc. My God! I have to beat them off with a stick!!! I'm nothing special in personality - but I do make the effort to be a "foreign Swede". That means speaking Swedish at every opportunity and taking part in both cultural and social activities. But at the same time I haven't lost my original national pride, and often bring my circle of friends into one event or another from my country - sometimes "forcing" them to speak English if the occassion warrants. We all have a good time and bond closer as friends.

As soon as I say "Hej" people know I am not Swedish. But, that doesn't affect the way they treat me. Act positively and you will be met positively.
23:34 January 18, 2010 by laura ka baal
Its better to rule in hell rather then serving in heaven, start your own Business.
00:57 January 19, 2010 by iridesce
Writing from the USA with a son who immigrated to your fine country just over a year ago, I just had to smile regarding some of the comments made.

First off - All of us, more or less depending on your location, are being severely affected by the global depression of the the last few years. Who can blame employers looking for the best possible job candidate who requires the least accommodation to hit the ground running in his/her new position? There are only so many jobs out here.

Working in the employment field here, the same is true for people who look for work and primarily speak Spanish and are typically people whose roots are in Central and South America. While there are companies who primary internal language may not be English; to interact with the general business community, English is a must. Also, regional or dialectic differences in language will make or break getting a job - as has been said previously, people will hire people like them.

The ability to discriminate relative to the success of a given individual in a given job within one's company is indeed up to that company. Of course in business, being able to hire - and effectively interact with - employees that are outside of the socioeconomic / culture typical to the business presents opportunities to expand markets and bring in more profitable business practices.

Oh and while I am sure improvements can be made in the process, free education at the university level - hard to fault. Once again I am in awe and admiration of a culture that seems to truly understand the value and importance of the contribution each member can make to the success of the whole. I truly wish our country understood that.

I always have to hang my head when discussions like this arise - being typical of most Americans, I am monolingual. The fact that your ( and many other ) cultures value, and indeed support educationally, their members ability to communicate in multiple languages humbles me.

And finally, thanks for the support of my son the immigrant to contribute to your society- he loves his new country for the people and the opportunity to be part of it.
02:32 January 19, 2010 by JoeSwede
This article and the study is too general. Conduct a mock study, make some observations and it becomes fact.

Obviously the type of education, where it was obtained and the grades received all should be used in evaluating a potential employee. Having a degree means nada. And in the end sometimes you have to go at it on your own. I can just imagine if my current situation deteriorated and I had to move to China. It would take me a while to adjust but I would have to.

Speaking of foreign education... the Chinese just recently a listing of top universities. How did the European, Iranian and Iraqi universities do? Give me a minute to look it up....
07:23 January 19, 2010 by xenyasai
This do not sound promising at all for us (My wife and I).

I am Norwegian, but I speak Swedish fluently with a slight hint of west coast dialect, and my writing skills can always improve.

My wife on the other hand is Aussie and so far only speaks English.

Our plan was to move back to Sweden within four years as she is taking a masters degree here in Oz and I will take a pharmacy degree via a Swedish school.

After reading this article I fear it will be a waste of time and money to move back to Sweden.
07:33 January 19, 2010 by fridayz
Joe Swede

Go to universities and check with experts, this may be a perfect way to look it up. As I have mentioned in another comment ... I have no idea about Iraqis, one doesn't see them around in universities but Chinese and Iranians are basically running the master programs. how good they are? well the best way to judge is check what happens to them after graduation.

In some department in my university almost half of the PhD students are Iranians! it is amazing when you see the employment criteria have been much much tighter for them and yet they are there. The rest of them doing PhD in the US or Canada or work in a well paid job at Norway!

Considering larger number of Chinese student here and how many of them doing a PhD afterward I would say Iranians are exceptional. So I checked with several of them to know why!! The reason is getting the US visa is extremely hard for them so most of the very good Iranian students chose Europe and Sweden.....once the Swedish employers became unkind .... they immediately find the best jobs else where! It is all up to us to make Sweden as a place for them to stay or a stair case to Canada or the US!

I am afraid we know very little about Iran and Iranians, as it was about China and Chinese !
07:45 January 19, 2010 by franny66
This subject has been discussed so many times here and the fact remains that Swedes in general miss the point of multi culturalism. They just want to be left alone. Thats why there is so little foreign investment in Sweden as well. If they agreed to foreign investment they would have to change. Thats why I believe a Chinese company buying Volvo will never work. So if you come to live here do not except to find work and develop as a person you will only exist on state handouts and bits and pieces of jobs. Unless you are a doctor or something which the Swedes need and cannot find in Sweden. Thats the story of Sweden in 2010 and stop debating it as you will not change it.
08:04 January 19, 2010 by michcas
@krigeren

I totally agree with you on all points. After being here for over 13 years, I think you are totally correct and your suggestions are extremely good! I have worked for a Swedish company for about 7 years and really enjoy and appreciate the people here but I still feel I will never fit in. My knowledge and skills are not being utilized as much as they should which leaves me feeling a little bored with things. Even though I can do jobs much better than some of my coworkers, they get the credit and advancement. I have really tried to do as much as I could to "fit in" and now realize it was a waste of time. Your advice to be "yourself" and along with being "Swedish" can give a person much more self satisfaction and I think much more respect by Swedes. After all, isn't it happiness that is the most important to each and everyone one of us and a large part of happiness is acceptance.
08:43 January 19, 2010 by thelionking
BANG ON....Krigeren

Ever since the appointment of the 'Integrations Minister' Nyamko Sabuni, I have pondered long and hard at that VERY VERY VERY tongue in cheek appointment (come ON!! am I the only person to wonder about that job placement?)

The questions it posed (to me) underline all that is pretentious/false about Swedish rules of engagement.....Fronts.

Migrationsverket point in example....is all most always fronted by Iranians, Bosnians, Iraqis, Lebanese, Chileans, Greeks, a French lady once for me, Gambians etc etc.

These guys do so much of the leg work of forms collection and dispersal. Handshakes. Reception work. And the inevitable cleaning job. Its easy to think this is the real picture of immigration department in Sweden.....NOT!!

The higher end of jobs ie *POLICY / DECISIONS / QUOTAS * etc are ALWAYS signed 'MvH Sven Svensson'. The faceless masters of Migrationsverket. But this is not exclusive to Migrationsverket.

Perhaps its the area I live in, but have also travelled extensively around Sweden....I am stiil to see non 'Svenilla or Sven Svensson' in police uniform!

Going back to Nyamko. Good for her,that she has got a foot in. But I see how often she is used to the 'image up' immigration in Sweden. In exactly the same way there is nearly always a pleasant immigrant lady/man at reception desks of most migrationsverket offices.

Sadly I feel the 'integrations job' is the equivalent of the collecting forms , receptionist etc. type work described above whilst 'svensson'

***Tobias Billstrom (the Immigrations Minister)*** remains the not so familiar face of immigration and the one calling the REAL shots.

The job market is the same. Faceless individuals calling the shots from behind the screen of .....

"life is fair to all people in Sweden screen" .

BULL FAECES!!!...I think not.
09:15 January 19, 2010 by franny66
@thelionking...... you have been here a long time as you see the window dressing that goes on. The Swedes like nothing better than window dressing so they can go out into the EU and say look we have a Black person in charge of Integration like you in France and UK we are so multi cultural nothing could be further from the truth...LOL..and you are right again about faceless swedes calling the shots from behind the screen..BUT when GM management gave them a taste of their own medicine they did not like it..LOL
09:27 January 19, 2010 by krigeren
@Michcas @thelionking Thanks for your support.

I am just one person. Your support is uplifting. I ask we put our money where are mouth is and do something. The political party I am helping to form needs 1500 signatures of citizens by the end of Feb. 2010.

If you want to get involved with that or in some other way please PM me. A good revolution needs people working from the outside and the inside. To be clear I am not talking about a bloody or violent revolution. I am talking about a social revolution where via the solidarity of immigrants and their 10's of thousands of Swedish spouse's and friends we can make a positive difference for not only immigrants but Swedes as well!

If we are successful in the upcoming elections and can pull only 5% of the vote then we have a real voice in parliament.

The truth is immigrants are not going away. We share more in common with each other than we think. The Iraqi man who has the same challenges as the American in finding a job have a great deal in common with one another.
09:43 January 19, 2010 by thelionking
@krigeren

Here here...

The very toilet cleaning minds we apparently have are enough... fist fights and passive discrimination are for the weak anyway :-)
10:10 January 19, 2010 by hilt_m
I don't get it, there is a course, it's SFA then after that you have SAS ground level then SAS-A and SAS-B This brings you right up to university level. There are also a bunch of other SFI courses out there that focus on other things like SFF for those that what to start a business, or medical etc. More funding for these classes would help.
10:19 January 19, 2010 by voidplay
@krigeren

I don't see how it will make a difference to have a political party and causing more 'divide' in the society by claiming to stand for the 'minority' or the 'immigrants' which seems to have a purely negative resonance in the Swedish society.

What it requires is an organisational change and change in public perception, what we as 'immigrants' who seem to have trouble with the glass ceilings and invisible hurdles can do is help each other around.

@iridesc @joeswede, I agree there are lots of positive things about sweden particularly the point about how valued you feel as an individual.

But like every thing in an ecosystem it can turn turtle because few ingredients are out of balance.

The education system and general attitude of swedes is in general better than some of these cereal box certificates I agree. But that is no reason to stereotype all the 'immigrants', individuals have their strong points.

And I am talking about getting an acknowledgement when you apply for a job, this doesn't seem to be the case in the rest of Europe. In a way it is good that we at least know that they are being honest, instead of 'we are processing your application and will get back to you soon'. So you at least know you are not being considered for the job.
10:25 January 19, 2010 by krigeren
@voidplay Politicians control nearly half of this countries economy.

Political influence equals power. Immigrants will only be taken seriously when they take their share of the power and have a seat at the bargaining table.

I am not creating a divide. The divide already exists. That divide is evident by unemployment rates among immigrants, segregation, and overall opportunity of immigrants here compared to people born here.

By immigrants organizing and uniting and ensuring they have seats within all aspects of the society is a primary way they can ensure Swedes and immigrants come closer together.
11:04 January 19, 2010 by voidplay
@krigeren

So what do you plan to do once you have some representation in the parliament.
11:23 January 19, 2010 by thelionking
I am no politician, just have a sense of right and wrong. And perhaps a political arena is the ONLY way to effect policy changes of things we all think....duh "OF COURSE"

And yet nothing changes.

The inevitable changing face of the world that INCLUDES Sweden cant operate on the "Windows 98" any longer. Its 2010 everybody.
11:33 January 19, 2010 by Roma
romartision@yahoo.co.uk

My dear ones!

I will be short in writing as soon have to go to my SFI lesson.

I am a teacher of English, university graduate, CELTA certified, with 20 years of teaching experience in Lithuania, Italy and the UK. Unemployed in Sweden of course!

Came here from Italy where I was teaching English at one of ESOL examination centres.

The reason why I came here was my 14 year old son who was on the ' wrong side of tracks ' last year. I left my job in Italy for his sake with the thought to easily get a here. I was sooooooo mistaken! I am needed in Sweden with my potential and excellent qualification.

But this is not the worst compared to what I had found out at the lessons of local SFI centre. By the way the centre it is considered to be one of the best centres Swedenwide! So, my dear ones: teacher - centred methodology, no communicative approach, no observations, no feedback!

By the way what is one of the most ridiculous things here is that SFI students are forbidden to use lap tops at the lessons of Swedish! lol

On the whole it seems that SFI system is absence of system here.

The only way to change anything is to found the so - called SFI party Swedenwide ( I guess through SFI net it would be the simpliest way to organise people to solve employment and teaching, etc. problems) and have EDUCATED immigrant representatives in the parliament.

Roma Martisiene

My email: romartision@yahoo.co.uk
12:46 January 19, 2010 by shawnywills
Really interesting comments on here. And massive thanks to those of you who responded to me specifically - the UK is so different! Much more of a meritocracy! (I never thought I'd hear myself extolling the virtues of the UK job market!)
13:00 January 19, 2010 by michcas
@krigeren

Again, I totally agree with you. The only way to make change is to get involved, otherwise we are ones to sit on the sidelines and complain because it never gets any better. This is 2010 and by god we need to learn from history and not repeat it! Please post when I can read more. I am much more conservative now than I used to be :). I also know that I am tired of sitting and not doing anything to change things. (Although, it is a very big mountain to climb..it is there and can be conquered.) Don't get me wrong, there are many many things I love about Sweden. Nothing wrong with trying to make it better, is it?
13:32 January 19, 2010 by krigeren
Thanks for asking! Basics of the political platform. Listed in order of importance.

1. Improve the economy and generate wealth creation jobs.

1A. Business incentives. Offer attractive packages for international companies to relocate here. All companies that relocate and invest a significant amount of money and guarantee X jobs should pay no taxes for a period of 5 years where this scales up over the next 5 years to a cap of 10 to 15 percent.

1B. Reduced taxation to employee people. Employment tax should be uniform and for all age groups the same. From the current levels of 32%15% (depending upon age) down to 12.5 percent across the board.

1C. Increase the scope of earned income tax credits, i.e., Instegsjob and Nystartsjobb for all immigrants and for all people unemployed until unemployment levels reach levels under 3 to 4% (more on this in a moment).

1D. Distribute taxes across the society via a transaction tax of 1% or so with some transaction exclusions (securities and currency). The important point is to significantly reduce the taxes on business and labor.

2. Labor Policy

Private enterprise and government must work together in partnership and do what they are each good at. Private enterprise will find jobs that have profit potential and government will subsidize that. Practically what that means is the government will significantly reduce the amount of job programs but offer incentives (see 1C) that allow employers to employ people.

Flexicurity and a living wage. Employers would be able to choose who works for them and choose when someone can no longer work for them. On the other hand, those unemployed would be supported with a living wage of 10,000 SEK a month with no tax applied. The difference in salary and wage will be insured within the private marketplace. Believe it or not paying 4,000,000 Swedes 10,000 SEK a month would cost less than current welfare programs.

The misconception in Sweden that you have to speak Swedish to be in the job market wastes too many talented peoples other skills and abilities (Yes, promote social Swedish). Incentives for foreigners to export Swedish goods to their mother countries should be a top priority. Iranians should be selling cars and software development, Iraqi's Swedish energy and infrastructure products, North Americans Swedish Investment Funds, it's a long list……..

Continued........
14:13 January 19, 2010 by thelionking
I rest my case...Sweden Got Talent!

.....cheers will follow up Krigeren.
14:15 January 19, 2010 by krigeren
Cheers..here is the rest...

3. The Government

3AGovernment Jobs

Government dependant jobs here are over twice the EU average at 33%+ as compared to around 16% for the EU-15. Government jobs are really about politics, i.e., large government = Social Democrat votes. Jobs should be about economics. We need a smaller more efficient government that focuses on what governments do well….collecting taxes to fuel projects that have cost structures too inefficient for private enterprise to cope with. Government managers would be rewarded for efficiency and excellence.

3B. We need honest government that does not hide the unemployment figures. If we are to tackle true unemployment we have to be able to accurately measure it. Those in training programs that are purposely created to hide unemployment should be abolished. Those workers who are unemployed but actively seeking work should be counted as unemployed (they are not counted now). Those who are in government job programs would be put back in the labor market.

3C. Police

The legal system and the policing methods in Sweden are designed around a homogeneous Swedish society. The police need more flexibility for fighting serious crime and more of a budget to do so.

4. The Environment and Sustainability.

Sweden has a massive opportunity here. Sweden is one of the world leaders in reducing its dependency on foreign oil. Sweden should make it a priority to develop sustainable fuels (biofuel from algae not food sources). I want to see a Sweden where we are all driving cars built with materials that are not only environmentally friendly in terms of emissions but have a relatively sustainable life cycle. By investing in this technology Sweden can be a world leader in green automotive technology and have the infrastructure, political will, and business incentives to achieve it. By doing so, by Sweden jumping the technology curve we could be exporting algae based production systems, bio powered cars, fuel cells, we could corner the market on this technology from a patent perspective and save a bit of the world by doing so.

5. Court System. Create a constitutional court. Sweden has one of the best

constitutions of any country anywhere. Invest time protecting that constitution. Often practically speaking the constitution is overlooked today by the supreme court.
16:10 January 19, 2010 by Andrian.Satrio
I have recently received my bachelor titels (Bachelor of Economy from The Netherlands and Bachelor of Social Science from Sweden). I just moved to Sweden from The Netherlands and hoping to be able to work while I am applying for a master program and learning the language. I have worked (including internship) in six international companies. Most of my internships had offered me a permanent employment but due to my study, I had to thanked them.

But now, I have been unemployed in Sweden since August and have sent both direct and open application letters to more than 300 companies. From these companies only less than 30 had sent me an E-mail of rejection and only two were in English.

During my study in Sweden, I must say that I was dissapointed of the mentality of the Swedish student who were mostly laid back. Surprisingly, I acknowlegded their english were not good. In many cases, their team members had to correct their english. Furthermore, Many Swedish students enjoyed 'free ride' from the erasmus students because they had stupid excuses why they were not able to finished their tasks: I had a fight with my girlfriend, I had to re-paint my appartment, I was on holiday etc. leaving us, FOREIGN students with the work.

So, I am surprised to find out that these student will be earning more than hard working foreigners. Even more frightening is that these students might be in charge of a department, if not, a company and its well-being.

I must say that the reasons why I wanted to study in Sweden is because of the well-known Swedish reputation: multi-cultural and multi-lingual. But the reality has 'bitten my in the ass'... At social level Swedish are social, multi-cultural and multi-lingual but when it comes to work... they are reserved for themselves. Too bad !!!!
16:14 January 19, 2010 by voidplay
Swedes are a bit like the Japanese, as individuals they are nice and open but as an organisation they can be pretty closed but the only reason it shocks you is because unlike the 'reputation' the Japanese carry the Swedes come more as a surprise.
16:34 January 19, 2010 by Alien.in.stockholm
Sadly... the two main reasons why foreign students decided to study in sweden are because of the girls (number 1) and free (number 2)....

PS. check your local university... most of the signs and most of the student magazines are in swedish! It was very eeeuh.. informative for the international students.. NOT!!!
16:42 January 19, 2010 by Roma
Have read what I had written earlier and ..I am sorry for the mistakes: I was so surprised to read true things about immigrant situation in Sweden and in a big hurry that I just wrote wrote wrote and did not want to be late for my SFI lesson.

One of my key sentences should be: I FEEL I AM NOT NEEDED IN SWEDEN, etc.
17:17 January 19, 2010 by raffe
Wow... Apparently Sweden does not treat foreigners well... I have to say that my personal experience in Sweden is quite the opposite. I moved to Sweden in spring 2008 and life is sweet. Not being able to speak any Swedish and having no formal education to speak of and even English is not my mother-tongue but instead I have 15 years of hands on experience in people management, helpdesk management, project management and commercial management, I found myself a job as a project manager of global projects in telecommunication even before moving to Sweden. When they asked what I was expecting to earn, I told them that I didn't know but that I did not want to find out later that I have been screwed (my exact words!). And they most certainly do not with their offer of almost 600k p/yr (considering Swedish salaries in general). So was I lucky? Maybe a bit... But I also have considerable experience in my field, and I know how to sell that. And I heard later that they liked my honesty and directness when I told them to look for somebody else if they expected me to travel a lot and work a lot of overtime because at this point in my life my wife and newborn daughter are my highest priority. A good mix of likeability, attitude and professionalism did the trick I guess. And social life is good too. My family-in-law is great and my wifes friends have accepted me in their group without any hesitation. Ofcourse I have also experienced (at work for instance) that SOME Swedes initially appear to be a bit distant to people they don't know. And sometimes you don't become friends. But that's not a problem and it is certainly not specific to Swedes is it? There's plenty of other Swedes that "defrost" quite quickly and are relatively easy to become friends with. Again, it also has a lot to do with your own ability to adapt and invest in a friendship/relationship. It's a shame that there's so much Sweden-bashing going on The Local. But it also says a lot about those people. Sitting there and moping that Sweden hasn't been as welcoming as expected will not make you any new friends. And just maybe your expectations were not realistic to start with. My advise is that you move back to where you came from because most likely there they welcome every foreigner from all walks of life with open arms. You'll be a lot happier.
18:17 January 19, 2010 by Iraniboy
Job situation is severe and I understand if a Swede is favored over a non-Swede for a job. Of course it depends on the job but in general it's easier to communicate with someone who has your own mother languages, isn't it?
19:26 January 19, 2010 by skatty
By reading the comments so far, it seems that some high-educated immigrants feel that they are in a trap named Sweden, somehow I surprised by so many negative comments!

The fact is that, what the article mansion is true about high-educated immigrants and their chance to find job (not sure about the numbers but the chance is low, very low), I can say it by my twenty years experience in here. It doesn't mean that all immigrants would be unlucky, some would get the right job with the right payment in the right time by the right experience; but they are so few, who can practically be neglected.

There are many reasons to make it hard to find job for higher educated immigrants, which can be countless; it can be related to your Swedish language ability, to your accent, color of hair, color of skin, nationality, religion, age, years of job experience, even the shape of your nose (some people do operation), your name, net working, and hundreds of hundreds reasons that I have heard in the last twenty years; unbelievable reasons, so unbelievable that if you don't find a reason then you have to imagine one to comfort yourself!

The fact is that Sweden is a society, which not desire to get immigrants for white-collar jobs; however, they have to adopt themselves to the resent market and get some. For the people from developing countries, I can say what they can expect from Sweden, should be like what they could find in UK or France for more than 50 years ago, in the matter of attitude. I mean, generally Swedes think that these people should do dirty jobs! It's why large number of immigrants who are actually refugees (became immigrant by Swedish law of humanitarian reason) are condemned to be second-class citizens.
20:00 January 19, 2010 by Doogie
@krigeren - bravo. Well said, mate.

To the educated, well-employed lawyer from the UK - stay there. Buy a summer home here, come and visit relatives, let your children run through the woods, maybe take a skinny dip with your better half. Then when the joy has worn off, close down the house and get on the next plane back to reality.

But, if love "forces" you to relocate, make it on the condition that you have a job before you think about moving. Never quit a job unless you have another job.

Bitterness leeches all over this thread, and I know its aftertaste well. After 15 months of unemployment, I know my Master's degree was an important qualification in getting me my first job here as a window washer. And it has really vaulted me through the stratosphere in my current job driving a fork-truck and loading semi-trucks in a warehouse. You should see the spring in my step every morning at 0515 when that alarm goes off.

So, in a nod to the good poster krigeren, I would agree that if you want to succeed here, you are going to have to make it happen yourself. Forget the language - speak the Queen's English. You will at least not sound like an idiot.

Your education, degrees, and experience along with 30:- should get you a cup of coffee. Enjoy.
20:29 January 19, 2010 by franny66
its very sad you take away the comments left earlier very sad indeed
22:44 January 19, 2010 by voidplay
@raffe

We are not talking about Swedes in general and we have nothing to complain about how they think or behave it is up to them. We are talking in an open world (seemingly) where one corporation can exist in multiple countries and can bid for contracts, buy raw materials, manufacture and market their goods anywhere in the world. When Swedish or Sweden based MNCs full of Swedes statistically seem to keep away 'outsiders' while you yourself give them every opportunity.

We have a reason to complain or at least comment at least we should be wiser. And we are complaining about 'language' being cited as a reason when it shouldn't. It works quite well for many especially for people moving from low cost countries and to a better living standards if they have a job in hand before moving in. But when you are here as a student and when you find that you are always on the waiting list simply because you are an 'outsider' then you can have doubts. Great move out elsewhere, where there are better opportunities, true.

But surely we have a right to complain when by WTO rules Skanska has a right to a fair chance in bidding for contracts in India, China, Brazil or any where in the world. And if you feel that Skanska can keep all the white collar jobs within Sweden fine again and if they plan to keep all the jobs for native Swedes fine again. But nothing wrong in airing this view so people would know.

People in Sweden and in this very forum were so much against the Chinese buying Saab and taking all the jobs to china. It at least makes sense they are moving production to a cheaper place and closer to their market. But how does that fair with Saab (or rather Swedes) keeping all its production in Sweden and employing Swedes preferentially but want an open market in China. Don't the Chinese who buy them because they like it deserve to know, unlike the Swedes who buy it because it is swedish or because it will 'keep swedish jobs'.

Again it is all fair that the Swedes do what is best for them but we deserve to know and so do they deserve to know that we do.

Disclaimer: I just used Saab as an example but if the statistics are true then you know of the trend in the economy and other companies that are part of it. It is not that the Americans don't talk about 'American jobs' or buy American cars preferentially but at least at the organisational level they are more open to 'outsiders' and Sweden is probably among the better half of EU.
23:44 January 19, 2010 by franny66
Lets get a some facts right here many people here like me come from English speaking countries....we did not claim asylum (on dubious grounds) or come as students some are married to Swedish men or women...its different ball game..fact..and many swedes get jobs in the uk and USA are treated very well...this not the case vice versa...
08:16 January 20, 2010 by thelionking
@raffe

Good for you, that you've had it so good. Many havent.

An MSc to drive a fork lift...dentists making Mc Donalds fries...pharmacist pulling pints for 3 years and counting. This is not normal.

And if all these jobs are going to non swedes, a major rat start is smelled by everyone and denied by those benefitting from keeping 'selected people' safely under a glass ceiling. Its called discrimination.

And the glass aspect of it, makes it a PASSIVE FORM, the hardest to describe or pin point.

But now that you've 'MADE' it, why do you think its ok to deny others the same. It will in NO WAY diminishes what you have. What did you take from 'Joe Sweden' by your own fortuitous engagement and smooth settlement into Sweden. Zilch.

But you proudly acknowledge you have ADDED something to your Swedish circles and NOT done the opposite. Sniff the coffee mate...and remember pride comes before a fall.

Once upon a time, many people thought apartheid was great and wondered what all the fuss was about, the holocaust was considered to be 'Gods' work (sic!!!), wars are frequently celebrated by politicians,bizarrely. These are all warped views.

Think about your view a little longer and thank your lucky Gods, you have not walked in the shoes of the few here and the thousands not on this forum.
08:42 January 20, 2010 by michcas
@raffle

It is great that so far things are working out well for you, but it would be interesting to hear back from you again in a couple more years. I too had arranged a job before moving here and was VP for a company. After four years the company went under and I was without a job for over a year. I too sent in over 300 resumes and had very few replys. At this time, I felt like "what is wrong with me?" and so unsure about how to handle the situation. Luckily, I met a gentleman at a dinner and we had a long talk. Today, he is a professor at Lund, with degrees from Harvard and Yale but he also could not get a job here in Sweden. At this stage, it was clear to me that it was not "me". What a relief because after a long time, you begin to doubt yourself, your knowledge and your skills. Obviously, those first four years were very good.

It is also very obvious that there must be very many immigrants that face the same dilema and it is easy to understand the turn towards criminal behavior. I must say, I have a very good life here now and life is really good. But still has many ways to improve and not just for me but for everyone.

@krigeren

Can you post a website or send info?
09:09 January 20, 2010 by franny66
@raffe

I have met many Brits and Irish here and many come from very working class backgrounds...for them to buy any type of a house and get any type of job here is rated as a success. They have low expectations which suits sweden very well...I think you belong in that group...if you think sweden is heaven on earth you have not lived in many countries.
09:46 January 20, 2010 by krigeren
@michas Yes. Next week when we have the basics all agreed on by the "founding mothers and fathers" ;=)
10:51 January 20, 2010 by glamshek
The first rule is to learn Swedish if you want to be here. Contacts and networks come afterwards.
12:57 January 20, 2010 by thelionking
@glamshek

Krap!

Thats where I been going wrong! Always thought "THE 1ST RULE" was something like...

"All men are equal before God so love thy neighbour"...or something to that effect.

What were your experiences, after learning Swedish incidentally? We would all love to know.
14:01 January 20, 2010 by franny66
@raffle

Buy this book and read it if you can since you admit you have no formal education, its written by a Swedish American Dennis Nordin....it puts the spotlight on what many of us experience here:

http://www.flipkart.com/swedish-dilemma-dennis-sven-nordin/0761831517-35w3fshjdb
14:25 January 20, 2010 by michcas
@thelionking

So right!

@glamshek. Yes, I can speak Swedish (maybe not perfect, :) and have a network of friends and contacts but it still doesn't change the attitudes. It has been so long since I even have written in my native language (which is English), I feel I have lost much of my skills. In addition, I have friends from Finland that have been here since childhood and some are second generation, but they are still commonly referred to as "Finnish" by my Swedish friends. They live here, have adopted to the culture and are in the mainstream of society. To me, they have been here so long that they should be considered more Swedish. My point is, it doesnt matter what country you come from, if your not Swedish, your not Swedish.

@franny66, thank you for the link. Sounds like an interesting book to read and one that I will check out.
14:32 January 20, 2010 by krigeren
@michas

In America it takes about three years to get a feel for the culture..to integrate.

In Sweden about 3 generations.

Lets change that.....
15:18 January 20, 2010 by thelionking
Rolling on the floor with laughter...Krigeren.

Its absolutely insane isnt it.

I remember reading a debate on Zlatan's Svenskness once. Imagine that!
15:43 January 20, 2010 by michcas
@krigeren and thelionking

It is insane. In America, a person never feels "left out." Discrimination has a completely different meaning in the states than in Europe.
19:18 January 20, 2010 by Alien.in.stockholm
Hehehe.. so funny that Zlatan is the first that my friends back home mentioned as soon as i said that i am moving to sweden... and he looks very swedish to me.. long blond hair, blue or green eyes.. LOL !!

@franny:thanks for the book advice.. would be interesting to read !!!
19:36 January 20, 2010 by thepursuitofhappyness
"You see, the challenges we face will not be solved with one meeting in one night. It will not be resolved on even a Super Duper Tuesday. Change will not come if we wait for some other person or if we wait for some other time.

We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. We are the hope of those boys who have so little, who've been told that they cannot have what they dream, that they cannot be what they imagine. Yes, they can." -BO
20:52 January 20, 2010 by Roma
Thank you, thepursuitofhappyness!

Yes, I know , we can. But Swedes can not yet!
22:21 January 20, 2010 by voidplay
My two cents

Swedes as individuals try not to hurt 'outsiders' or are at least trying to be PC

But the root of the problem lies in organisational exclusion, which happens when they are in a group (homogeneous) and use language/culture/stereotyping as excuses.

And often as individuals do not realize their behaviour as a group.

So any airing of your views in a public must make sure that you do not alienate the Swedes (as individuals). Do not make the individuals feel punished when the problem is with organisational exclusion.
22:52 January 20, 2010 by Merc10
I can see many people are very much spot on about the issue of immigrants being alienated by virtue of who thay are and that they are not able to speak perfect swedish.

They(swedes) then tempt to blind the immigirants by offering the likes of Nyarko Sabunin crap positions to hold. Positions which the swedes themselves are not willing to take because of the sensitivity of the job.

The guy from london (lawyer) who wants to immigrate to Sweden. i have this to say to you.Listen to the others and stay where you are you'll be much better off . Most people in this website are talking out of experience. Ask me , i have learn't my lesson well.
01:43 January 21, 2010 by raffe
@voidplay

You make some good points.

@franny66

You don't know me but I think you are right in categorising me as "working class". After all, I'm working; I hope you are too.

But wait a minute! I don't rate success by things as owning property and having a job. So maybe not "working class" after all...

There are only two success factors that are important to me. One is called "happiness". Happiness for myself, my wife and my children. The other success factor: when your kids think it's fun to hang out with you when they are adults.

Is this having low expectations? I think they can't get any higher. But probably you will disagree... Hmmm, back to being "working class" again I'm afraid.

By the way, thanks for the book suggestion. I'm pretty confident that I will be able to read it. The fact that I didn't finish my studies at University does not mean I'm illiterate. I chose to stop because I became a father at age 20. We needed food on the table and at that age it means having 2 jobs, preferably in shifts. In factories, mainly with uneducated immigrants from Turkey, Marocco, Tunesia, Surinam, etc. Working that much does not combine well with studies, I can tell you that. And studying in The Netherlands is most definately not for free.

Okay, that settles it; I'm working class. franny66, you were spot on!

@thelionking

I'm not denying anybody anything! If I gave that impression then I apologise. I genuinly hope that all immigrants in Sweden (actually in all countries) one day all feel that they are treated with respect and offered equal opportunities. That's something everybody should strive and work for. But it's hard and will not change easily (if at all because unfortunately human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest). After all most of us immigrants are uninvited guests in the countries that WE chose to live in. Why should THEY treat us with respect and offer us equal opportunities? Obviously because it's the right thing to do. But think about this: would we ever give a job to a fellow country man over a Swede if it was in our power to do so?

Anyway, back to my point... I was trying to say that I don't understand why some stick around for such a long time while being in Sweden is not such a great experience. I most certainly wouldn't. That's they deal that I have with my wife. If one of us is unhappy, then we move back or possibly to another country. But it's a luxury that the Somalian refugee (just an example) doesn't have, I understand that.

My last point I was being a bit cynical... Ofcourse we all come from countries that treats its natives and ALL its immigrants with the same amount of respect and opportunities. That's ofcourse why we expect the same in Sweden...

Hmmm, think again. In most countries it is probably not a lot better for immigrants compared to Sweden. But please tell me that I'm wrong and tell me why! Then I know where to go if everything falls apart for me in Sweden...
02:53 January 21, 2010 by franny66
@raffe

Well the troll has come to life and he says "But wait a minute! I don't rate success by things as owning property and having a job" well now troll in most countries and even in ex-communist china that's what judges success! So its Cuba for you iam afraid!!!
06:35 January 21, 2010 by thelionking
@voidplay

"...views in a public must make sure that you do not alienate the Swedes (as individuals). Do not make the individuals feel punished when the problem is with organisational exclusion. "

......SPOT ON voidplay! We sure do need each other.

Perhaps "internationalism" is a bitter pill for Sweden to swallow? It always is because maybe it acknowledges the demise of the local model?? But the local very Swedish model has no doubt been a success story and made this country exceptionally, successful and STILL stay beautiful. The envy of many.

Other countries' respective models have NOT however; stood still over the years, and today have expanded and absolutely started pulling the Swedish model apart...from outside of Swedish borders. Out qualifying Sweden in various board rooms, factory floors even football. Ouch.

But all hope is not lost actually. There IS people at the back of the Swedish classroom who have the running legs and wisdom to help Sweden "qualify" for the WORLD CUP's in business/ economics/ politics/ health/ education .......and ABSOLUTELY for football too :-) just that, they dont get picked no matter how they raise their hands is the tragedy.
08:08 January 21, 2010 by michcas
@krigeren

Looking forward to hearing more.

@thepursuitofhappyness

Well said!!!

@raffe

I am just guessing, but I would imagine many on this forum come from well developed western countries which have strong laws against discrimination and a society that promotes support and well being for each individual. We all know that each individual has something to contribute and a talent which must be utilized to help a society grow and prosper. For many, happiness is not measured by the amount of things they have, it is by how much they can contribute to achieve a common goal and then self satisfaction. Once a person has lived or grew up in a country that has a higher respect for individual achievements and equal rights, then it is very difficult to accept anything less. Why? Because we know the true value of each individual and how a person feels when they can say to themselves...."Yes, we did iti!"

If you have never experienced the above, then you probably are happy with "the standard", because you do not know anything else. There is nothing wrong with that either, but then you should try to learn what the others are trying to teach you. It is great that you can enjoy your kids, but, if you want your kids to have a better life, listen and learn. Try reading up on Maslows Hierarchy of Needs, it can help you understand. You can find it all over the internet.
10:03 January 21, 2010 by Decedo
It's easier for employers to hire someone who is more like them," Jusek chair Göran Arrius told The Local.

Isn't that essentially what was happening in Nazi Germany??? They gonna put us in Ghettos next? What, I think that's already happening!!
11:58 January 21, 2010 by Alien.in.stockholm
I am happy to have encountered with this discussion.. despite of my experiences and knowlegde, I didnt get anything here. I started to doubt myself and even worst experienced decreasing self-confident. This discussion has proven that there is nothing wrong with me and it is all about the mentality of the Swedish employers, well at least many of them.

It was a slap in the face when I have applied for a job and did not received anything from them but after a week seeing the same job ad on the net. Im just trying to be positive and think that their english is not good enough and that is why they did not reply to my application.

I just sent my 346th application before I logged in to the local.. before pushing 'send', I knew it is going to lead to nothing. Now I am thinking.. with many educated 'aliens' here in this discussion... why dont we team-up and start our own business? LOL....
12:04 January 21, 2010 by Taz Mania
In my experience of 6 years in Sweden. It is who you know not what you know. This may just be the field I'm in but none the less that's my experience.

TM
13:48 January 21, 2010 by Roma
Alien.in.Stockholm! I am the first to join you, team up and start something new, our own business possibly too!

Educated Unemployed Discriminated Swedish Immigrants, join us!

Together we can make things happen in this country!

Of course we can!!!
14:42 January 21, 2010 by Merc10
@Roma and Alien in Stockholm

i think it's a good idea to do something about this and become the voice of the voicelesss. Am still a student and is quite sure after finishing my studies i will be faced with the same problems as the Alien in Stockholm.
15:00 January 21, 2010 by Alien.in.stockholm
I feel a bit bad.. although the Swedish labour market has not been nice to us but the Swedes itself are still friendly to me. But I still dont get it how come it is so much different between the social and working attitudes in the Swedish society.

I have met good Swedish students during my study but I have also met many 'bad' Swedish students who didnt took the study seriously.. many of these bad students had enjoyed the kindness of Erasmus students who allowed them to have a 'free ride' for assignments at the uni. What pisses me off is their excuses: i had a fight with my boyfriend so i cant concentrate.. i have to re-paint my appartment.. i have booked this holiday 2 months ago and cant cancelled.

At the end, these students received the same titels like we do. This is what I am afraid of.. these students might end up as a head of a department and, if not, a company... their decisions within the company will effect on the whole company and also its employees. Imagine... hundreds lay off just because these students had a fight with his/her partner the night before.

Im not saying all Swedish.. but during my study, im afraid i have encountered too much negative experiences to work with swedish students for a project. So, this is the main source of my concern.. what if the continue acting like that in the business world?

In every tree.. we will find few rotten apples.. its is up to us that we are not one of the rotten apples and it is up to the company capabilities to use their common sense to find the best possible employee for a certain vacancies within that company.

Lets keep our fingers crossed for some changes guys...!!

@ Merc10: make sure you intergrated as much as possible and show that to the company where you are going to apply to... although it is a long shot but still worth the efforts

@Roma: Im in !! although I prefer the name: sophisticated underestimated aliens in Sweden ;)
18:45 January 22, 2010 by bobbychyldd
Comment: @thelionking. Ideally speaking that is the first rule. Practically speaking, you're not going to change anyone by chanting ideals. Especially when the problem rests on large groups of socially cemented ways of life. Don't take that the wrong way. I agree with you. You seem to have a pretty good understanding of the scope and magnitude of the issue as do a number of others on this site. I say "seem," because I'm a newcomer to the local, and to this issue. However I'm very interested in moving to Sweden for a plethera of reasons and this doesn't bode well for me! I've heard some very good thoughts, but a lot is hard to decipher between. You have negative experiences to make a point, which understandably create a hopeless feelling. And you have plain negative thinking and ascerbic comments, which either creates uneducated people to moan alongside or educated people to see the problem as just a doom and gloom mentality instead of what it really is. Changing a group mentality is hard, especially when that mentality has been replicated over and over again among hundreds and thousands of groups in a nation. This mentality in turn affects each individual person in all walks of life. We need ideas and direction, not rants. We want to create an feeling of hope and direction not one of hopelessness and avoidance. Obviously this isn't the only voice, there should be a centralized site to point people to for ideas on how they can make a difference. There should be ideas for activies, books to read, political thoughts and agendas to promote or denounce. Let our words be clear and well written with an agenda. Quick to explain and direct and slow to mock and cajole the unedcuated. Otherwise, it's just another useless comment section.
23:34 January 22, 2010 by Whitehall
During my recent 10 day trip to Sweden from California, EVERYONE I interacted with spoke fine English. All, that is, except two people - both Somalian cab drivers.

I'd venture that a larger percentage of Stockholmers speak English than residents of my home, San Jose in Silicon Valley.

I never got to say anything beyond "Tack" - even in the boondocks.

However, my 17 year old daughter quickly deciphered the Swedish word for "Sale."
09:01 January 24, 2010 by skatty
@Alien.in.Stockholm

Firstly; About your fear that lazy Swedish students to get important job in companies; I should say the number one rule to get job in Sweden in like many other countries: to know people in a company, who can recommend you for the job to their company. Unfortunately, in the case of immigrants it happen very seldom, because most of immigrants even high educated one are not getting important positions in Sweden, but in lower low status jobs, like factory working, cleaning, the recommendations are working better!

Secondly; there are some positions, which Sweden accepts qualified immigrants easier, like doctors, nurses, and dentists. The irony is the immigrants who lived and studied in Sweden to be qualified, have more interests to emigrate from Sweden and get job somewhere else!

Thirdly; to get job in Sweden, more depends to experience than education. As a matter of fact many vice presidents and managers in Sweden have lower education than what you might find in US or some other countries in Europe. Some social skills, to know the right people, and come in touch with right companies can be enough to reach to high positions in Sweden (for Swede, not immigrants), not really the knowledge about the job itself!
22:09 January 24, 2010 by gookha
The worst case scenario is for the dark haired (black haired), brown skinned, dark skinned, black skinned nationals and/or immigrants....That's what I call equality, diversity etc etc...Hats off SWEDEN....
21:05 January 25, 2010 by Brad_L
From the point of view of a Canadian and recent grad and jobseeker, I feel that the same environment exists in Canada and Continental Europe. The US and UK are meritocracies, but not so elsewhere. I'd say 10% of jobs are advertised, and even those that are advertised often go to someone the employer had in mind before posting it. How many foreigners in Sweden are on the ball to secure a job before it even exists? I know young Swedes who turn to their friends and families for positions and rely on social services until these positions are ready, or else they work abroad because they also perceive that there is no work for them in Sweden. The same is true in Canada. And in this economy, there are too Swedish engineers working at grocery stores.

Sweden is a small country where people actually know each other. Family ties and real communities exist, something that is not true of present day Canada, UK and US. Put it into context. When you arrive, it's noticed. You are a foreigner! It's not derogatory, but you are one! I expect that you will need to be known and trusted by the general community before you will be compared to "Sven Svensson" equally. The same absolutely exists in Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean, Middle East, Asia, Latin America... Swedes migrate to the US to escape this themselves.
19:56 January 26, 2010 by skatty
@Brad_L

I should say that there are Mandy differences between Sweden and Canada or US. I can give you a simple example, even though the discussion really need long time. Most of immigrants (refugees) have to waste much longer time in Sweden to reach almost to a similar level of life than Canada or US. For a newcomer it may take something between 15 to 20 years to reach in the same level that a person can reach in Canada in 5 to 8 years.

At first, because of Swedish language, which seldom a newcomer can talk in contrast with English, which is popular around the world. There are some similar process between Sweden and Canada for newcomers, but generally Sweden looks down to immigrants in contrast with Canada, which welcome to immigrant. Sweden is not interested in immigrant to reach to top of the social ladder and use systematic methods to push immigrants downward (it takes time to understand it, you should live here for long time), it's not in the case of Canada or even UK. Many immigrants after two-decade life in Sweden have some kind of life situation and standard, which a newcomer might have in Canada at present!
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