Published: 11 Mar 10 10:41 CET | Print version
Updated: 11 Mar 10 20:22 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/25468/20100311/
The Swedish parliament voted on Thursday in favour of a motion to recognize the 1915 Armenian genocide.
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" I have recently become addicted to a website called Stockholms Källan. The site is an amazing treasure trove of historical images of Stockholm. You can search by names or locations to find old photos and documents relating to whatever you’re interested in. This image is from a 1960’s short film called “Ditt Stockholm” (“Your Stockholm”). It..." READ »
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Its ridiculous how modern politics keep on concentrating on problems that no longer exists today.
Turkey offered opening its archives to Armenian and International historians to investigate all this genocide crap many times but they preferred sticking with their own made up story.
There was no genocide, it's called "war".
Ottoman Empire was in a deep crisis, attacked by everywhere, all around, and the political establishment were no longer able to rule. There was a deep economical crisis too. So... yes, there was a genocide.
Armenians were Russia allies in Orthodox Brethren, and The Ottoman Army saw how their Empire Christian subjects acted before. Romanians, as an example, fought hard along Russian troops against Ottomans, in Bulgaria, although, de facto, there was no ottoman soldier in Romania at that time and just a piece of paper were the link between Romania as subjected country and Ottoman empire. There was a desperate lack of solutions and many examples and deja vu s acted like precedent.
As a comparison, Austro-Hungarian Empire acted here, in Romania, much much worse. Close to genocide.
Ottomans never did something like this here, in my country. Never.
History is not a simple one sided story.
And those funny guys called politicians have NO moral right to say what is right or wrong in History. They just acted for their momentary needs.
We have no need their approval voting to know the truth.
Well, I don t know how it works for you...
For f.cks sake, the genocide happened 95 years ago and was committed by an empire that no longer exists. There must be better things to do with our tax money than having pointless debates...
and it has nothing to do with genocide or massacre. It was a very successful strategy regarding its era, to form Janissary soldiers from conquered lands who were elite class of warriors that had high status in the society.
I think these tragic events should not be exploited by the politicians. It is the duty of academicians and historians to evaluate these events.
First of all, the overwhelming majority of Armenians were loyal to Turks, in fact they were so wary of the Turkish reaction that they would not dare thinking about revolt, they were just 4 small and isolated incidents of revolt.
in any case, even if we accept the allegations of treason, this can not justify the horrible crimes carried out against Armenians and generally christians, mostly women and children.
Tell me what empire was or is not soaked in blood. I just said that Austro-Hungarian Empire acted much worse here, in Romania.
"How many children were stolen and sent to Turkey for reeducation"
How many educated Romanians work now in low paid jobs, as slaves practically, all over western world? Just because countries like US and UK destroyed our economy...
"The overwhelming majority of Armenians were loyal to Turks"...
Greeks were too before... I don t say that made the killings acceptable. But, look here, how many of us know the reality about East Timor genocide backed by US Army??? In 1999???
How many of us know the truth about East Timor genocide backed by US Army??? In 1999???
How many of us know the truth about East Timor genocide backed by US Army??? In 1999???
What about Guatemala???
Today Turkish are not to blame for what happened 100 years ago.
They are to blame about crimes against Kurdish population. In our lifetime.
you made a good point in your comment, actually all empires had blood on their hands, but the problem is not what SOME Turks did 95 years ago, the problem is what the modern day Turkish government is doing.As a EU membership candidate, The Turkish government has been brainwashing its own citizens for decades and spending millions of dollars on genocide denial, this just makes Armenians more defiant and persistent in thier recognition campaign.
But could anyone tell me what genocide stands for? Is there a strict definition or the definition is inferential?
Another thing is could anyone define Ottomans? Do they consist of solely turks?
Now, as it's pretty obvious, most of countries on earth are not saint. I find neither Turks as barbaric nor Armenians are saint and vice versa.
As you see above, there is an example stereotype of a Turk that supports the governental idea. Note that the turkish thesis is as "ok let's form a reunion of historians and let them solve". But as a Turk, I can say this is a complete workaround for Turkey. The issue is Turkey is unable to accept such Armenian thesis due to the fact that turks cannot bear being genocidial nation and of course, if it's accepted somehow by Turkey, there is a fear that Armenian will demand regions.
The very differentiation from III. Reich and Ottomans is one is ruling Europe during late 30s and early 30s and other is devasted empire losing vast amount of regions and uncapable of fighting back which results this incredibly sad incidents. I am sorry for both sides personally.
Ottoman Turks were defending their homeland against separatists. It wasn't only Armenians who were suffered. There were Circassians, Kurdish and Laz separatists who attacked Ottoman villages and towns and killed hundreds of civilians and soldiers.
I lived down in TX for a while. If Hispanics in Texas want to establish their own country in South Texas, wanna make San Antonio the capital and start killing soldiers, what would fellow Texans do? Just give them the land and deal with this kinda b.s 100 years after?
This is all Armenian Diaspora PR work and Armenian economy has been suffering from this and keep suffering in the future as well. Don't care what Swedish parliament and people who don't know a s**t about Armenia and Turkey think!
Unfortunately, I must accept the brainwashing stuff. The news regarding with Armenian genocide here "always" starts with the adjective: "so called".
But let's flip the coin to the other side, I don't think Armenians will let someone in denial of genocide in Armenia.
The thing is as I said Turkey is incapable of accepting it and the right wing is ruling country for about 40 years and the founder party of Turkey has also alliance with denial of genocide. So, it's impossible of even negotiating it. There are/were assaults of the ones who are even discussing it. E.g. Hrant Dink. Those who are interested in Hrant Dink can have information from Nobel Museum in censorship zone.
@naturebox: Think you are living in a dysutopian land and a nation which lives with his past of ruling 1/3 Europe upto Vienna, some parts of Asia, whole MiddleEast and Africa and this is for 600 years or so in a stability. Then, you lose your all regions and revive with a war of self-prove. Believe me, here, Turks cannot bear it since the ultimate thesis is "All the residents of Ottomans lived in a great peace under the empire". In fact this is true to some extent during 1500-1700. There were no problems with Armenians and Grecs. But nationalism wave ended the whole "dream".
For the one saying "Türkün Türkten başka dostu yoktur" meaning, there is no friend of Turk other than Turk" implies the simple brainwashing stuff in Turkey. Luckily, I am immune to brainwashing and I really don't care any nationality at all. I find individuals important more than stereotypes of nations and my shoes are my country. lol
Battle of Sisak
This battle meant the final victory over the 300-years-old Turkish nuisance, which had much too long hindered the progress of the then Duchy of Kranjsko (Carniola) as the bastion of the entire Western Europe. The victory over the more than three times stronger Turkish troops practically brought salvation to the whole Christian Europe,[9]
According to historic tradition the Ottoman forces that attempted to take Sisak fortress were six times superior in numbers, although three times[3] is probably closer to reality. In any case, it was a local, provincial army and their contingent of elite troops must have been but small. Pounding the massed attackers with heavy artillery fire, the Austrian and Croat defenders broke the Ottoman siege and pushed the enemy towards the Kupa river. Caught in the middle between two Christian army flanks, the attackers panicked and started a chaotic retreat. Disintegrating under the unending cannonade, the bulk of the army with all the commanders are said to have drowned in the Kupa river.
Germany admits that their former government, the Nazis, committed attrocities. Germany is still a great nation despite its past. And there are people who deny the Holocaust.
Comment:
Please watch in youtube watch?v=uCebMq-GmH4 showing that the word genocide was coined referring "what was happened to Armenians" Don't you find it ridiculous when many in the world claim for genocide case but reject that for Armenians? What was happened is genocide, done by Ottoman authorities and Turkey is a legal successor of the Ottoman Empire. And one more thing Turkey attacked Russia in November 1914. They well could guess the outcome of attacking Russia in a winter time(Russians also could not win the war against Finland in winter time!!!). But Ottomans decided to do so and blame Armenians, then start kill them all over the country. Simply it was planned intnded killing. And all Turks know this better than anyone, but they prefer to go further, denying the facts
Well, Sisak has no great importance for Ottomans but Nagykanizsa. The motive was having Nagykanizsa.
The main reason for the loss of Ottomans is that invasion of Europe is tiring and the integration of forces (not only turks) dissolves during the invasion and that chaotic retreat costed for some heads in the Ottoman empire.
Note that for Ottomans, the main motive is always invade but don't kill if surrender and assimilate without killing. So, all in all, I can conclude that Turks had no motive of killing for pleasure or extermination of a nationality since the cure is as "assimilation". But it takes time to assimilate and the waves of nationalism results in defending regions in turkish point of view. while defending the regions, the massacres led to the catastrophic results, even can be considered as genocide. Let me say, in the Ottoman empire, armenians had great importance just as jews, grecs. Then, "backstabbing thesis" of the nations in the empire finished the alliance and an everlasting hatred emerged as Turkey vs. Greece, Turkey vs. Armenia, Turkey vs. Arabs except for Jews. I discard the conflict of Kurds and Turks since it's far different than this case.
@serkalan:
At least try for google translate my lazy friend.
Regards.
Turkey image in your mind may give that idea but generalizations may lead nothing in this case, both more hatred indeed. Maybe a turk was messing up with you, thus, you want to generalize the act of one to all nation. Let's avoid stereotypes for a second, e.g. not all swedes are blond.
@gevorg:
>>But Ottomans decided to do so and blame Armenians, then start kill them all over the country
Ok, but as I said, Turks didn't start killing instantly without reason, please bear in mind the regions Armenians living was conquered 300 ago prior to genocidal acts. So, at least, question this: "what could be the motive for this in 1914-1915 during war which turks are losing with germans but not during 1500 or so?"
"because you carried out the genocide....therefore we can not consider you for EU memembership... sorry Turkey..."
This really is not a problem for Turkey to be an EU country. There are so many dollars in that country, and such a strong industry, so many hard workers and well educated people...
The only problem is the raising muslim fundamentalism.
@Blackman_for_Blondes
Great thing, africans are not brutes! :-)
And how about the war crimes by the Britain and France in Asia and Africa?
Will Sweden vote???
Please. Of course it's a problem for Turkey, then what is Turkey doing for 30 years in front of the doors of EU? sweeping? Don't be ridiculous to look cool. Even, as a Turk, it's obvious Turkey needs EU as the polls says so. But, it's something reciprocal. EU needs us too, but without the living quality of eastern regions and the mass amount of uneducated ones. At least, redeem your thoughts from stereotypes.
>>The only problem is the raising muslim fundamentalism.
As far as I remember Turkey is known as a democratic republic. So, who raises it?
Answer is frigthening for some Turks: "citizens" itself. Oh dear, majority of turkish citizens are supporting a political party in favor of Islam. Damn, let's form a coup for every 10 years. (1960-1971-1980-1997-2007) The last is considered as internet-based.
for more info you may have a look at the following link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_Massacre
Extending my warmest regards...
"EU needs us too, but without the living quality of eastern regions and the mass amount of uneducated ones."
I understand Bulgaria and Romania has no mass of uneducated and no poor living quality regions. :-) Funny, funny, funny!!! And northern Greece at the time when Greece enter EU was a rich land with thriving industry and well educated people ... please, you re killing me :-D
"what is Turkey doing for 30 years in front of the doors of EU?" Turkey has now the industrial power that can no match the one Turkey had 30 or 20 years ago.
Comprende?
"As far as I remember Turkey is known as a democratic republic." For the moment. With a little help from the deep state generals, admirals and so on.
Kind of democratic...
Chill man, nobody s fighting you.
This Hitler speech "Who remember the armenians?" I believe it is very common gossip, can you give me date and place for this comment of Hitler. It sounds stupid since there were trials done by both puppet ottoman government after ww1 and allies and 2 of 3 jonturk leaders were killed by armenians after a short time in Europe. Probably it depends on "memoirs" like any other armenian allegation. Btw, is Asala ringing any bell, killing diplomats and bombing airports in 1970 and 1980s. It is not of course directly related to the issue but i would like to see about the reaction by the commentaters probably "well deserved" right?. They only dissolved after killing french people in Orly, of course french death is not invaluable as the turks.
Check the documentation of this genocide. They are all in archives of different countries. These are just the copies.
http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=14044
Bulgaria and Romania:
If you are applying for EU, you must fullfil the req., simple as 2+2. So, no problem for EU but if a nation supress ideas, can you believe in democracy in here? So, again, don't avoid the question, why an armenian is killed in Turkey due to his thoughts and now, he has a place in Nobel Museum in censorship zone? Answer this!
For uneducated ones:
At least, could you check for the literacy statistics of Turkey? Really, I am ashamed of the position of Turkey in any index. Don't you?!
Could you enlighten us regarding the higher education system in Turkey? 70 universities or so in Turkey. Could you give us the success of those universities regarding Science Citation Index? That index proves the quality of turkish education system regarding higher education which is a great failure for our country.
For poor ones: At least, have you visited eastern parts? Why those people are in a great poverty and dying in vain with a simple earthquake? Have you got any idea regarding quality of their living? We must admit we assimilate those for 100 years and we left them in poverty that eventually, Kurds form PKK and started massacres on Turks. Could you at least tell here why 2.5 million eastern residents are in favor of a political party that in favor of PKK that kills 30.000 people which evenually led Turkish Army to force Kurds for a compulsory displacement in western regions (sounds relevant to this article) of Turkey and they end up in Sweden in the end?
Of course, Turkey has now the industrial power that can no match the one Turkey had 30 or 20 years ago just as Iran, Kenya, any other nation. Please do you think nations are stable regarding advancements in science and technology during time?
Could you enlighten us regarding deep state generals, admirals?
>>Chill man, nobody s fighting you.
Discard your stereotype!
Alma Johansson (1880-1974) was a Swedish missionary who worked in the city of Mush in the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century. In 1901, the Missionary Society of Swedish women sent Johansson to Mush (Western Armenia), where she stayed until December, 1915. She worked at an orphanage for Armenian children. On the outbreak of World War I, the atrocities against the empire's Christian minorities escalated and she became an eyewitness to these crimes against humanity. She wrote about her experiences in a book called Ett folk i landsflykt: Ett år ur armeniernas historia ("A People in Exile: One Year in the Life of the Armenians", Stockholm: Kvinnliga missions arbetare, 1930), both of which were translated into Armenian and French.
She also made testimonies to German and American diplomats who published them later. Alma told about how women took poison so they wouldn't be captured by the Turks, and how the soldiers transported bloody, wounded women and children through the city while other soldiers fired at them just to frighten. When the wounded fell to the ground, the solders would hit them with the butt ends of their rifles. "I can never forget the sight. And nothing could you do for them!" she wrote.
She gave information about how the kids at the orphanage were handed over to a Turkish officer, and then taken to a building outside the city where they all were murdered.
In 1923 Johansson moved to Salonika, and established a factory for more than 200 Armenian refugee women. She also founded an Armenian kindergarten and primary school in Charilaos (Greece).
In 1997, the Johansson festival was organized in Yerevan, Armenia.
In 2005, on the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide (and every year since then), a group of Swedish Armenians visited Alma Johansson's grave at Skogskyrkogården in Enskede, outside Stockholm, to remember these horrifying events and to honour her efforts.
Cool website full of broken links. Pity. I don't really wanna argue with someone who picked "Elton John" as nickname. :)
@dinarincman
I've got a nice wallpaper for you. You're welcome.
http://www.itusozluk.com/img.php/b352e5dedf50896fc0c1596919fcfb6410233/istanbul+since+1453
At least I see there are people like petersonberg who actually has some information that is not manipulated.
First of all, the term "genocide" is a legal and political term, president Obama and other western leaders didn't ask for any permission of historians to call what was going on in Darfur a "genocide", they used the term based on the reports they got about the events, you may say the armenian genocide occured almost a century ago? yes, it was a century ago but again historians have no authority over this issue, historians have already done their part, there are myriads of books and articles about this issue and the Turkish government has been spending millions of dollars to support its own "version of history". Second of all, there is a huge gap between Turkish deeds and words, on the one hand, they propose the formation of a historical commision, on the other hand, they prosecute their nationals over this issue.
And finally, there is the issue of reparations, if Turkey and Armenia both accept the idea that an independent group of legal experts investigate this issue then the ruling of that commision will have to be binding and in case the commision of legal experts conferms the "allegations" then Armenians will demand billions of dollars in reparations, the question is will turkey pay that money?
Could you explain us what the point is regarding with this wallpaper? Ok, we got Istanbul. So what? Can you consider Turkey is very well preserving Istanbul? Didn't you encounter any filth in Istanbul?
Sadly, I can give you any link regarding the very filth we caused in this country.
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/3-lise-ogrencisi-tramvay-altinda-kaldi/turkiye/sondakika/11.03.2010/1210153/default.htm?ver=81
You may say, this may occur in anywhere in the world but at least, check for yesterday, the day before etc. and without bias, could you say we are good at our democracy, the way of living etc. and obviously, EU won't be accepting us even we are sweeping the doors of the union and please don't play the cool here. We know we are not good at democracy thus in pursuit of EU standards and the way of their living. Yet, we need 100 more years or so to evolve to have the comprehension to respect others' ideas.
One last thing, a working link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
Search for Turkey, you grab the idea;)
"I am ashamed of the position of Turkey in any index. Don't you?!"
I am romanian, so... :-D
"Of course, Turkey has now the industrial power that..."
Man, Turkey now :
"In 2008 Turkey produced 1,147,110 motor vehicles, ranking as the 6th largest producer in Europe (behind the United Kingdom and above Italy)"
"The country is among the world's leading producers of agricultural products; textiles; motor vehicles, ships and other transportation equipment; construction materials; consumer electronics and home appliances." Wikipedia
"Could you enlighten us regarding deep state generals?" Man, I told you, you are funny!
You told me to answer to something in your first paragraph, but I read no "please". Ok, you are the prisoner of love -hate relation with your country, maybe because you live somewhere else and you are now a little depressive, but, man, please, be civilized!
@phantomdissenter
Great story, great woman, God rest her blessed soul!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium
(just search for the word "million" on the page and you will see)
or why is noone talking about France in Algeria in the 1950ies (!!!) killing 1 Million people or the UK in India or the west allies killing 1,5mio in Irak (for what reason? because there were nuclear weapons???)...
it's called cultutal-centricism, lobbyism and out-of-control-capitalism...Turkey will never enter the EU, europeans have lost their chances, Turkey will join his historical friends in the orient and one day they will succeed just because of demographical facts, it's a pity, because, still there are wise europeans, but they are a small minority (i hope i'm wrong)...
When you turn an ipod, you will see; "Designed in California, assembled in China". So, Turkey has no genuine brand to export except for its food.
uncivilized:
I am civilized enough to be unbiased and impartial to incidents happened in this land.
Perhaps you don't know the definition of genocide. The genocide is extermination of a race, nation etc. I have never heard about the events you are referring that a group of unarmed people (children, women and elderly) be killed because they are Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks or whatever.
And please change your nickname, you don't deserve to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium
(just search for the word "million" on the page and you will see)
or why is noone talking about France in Algeria in the 1950ies (!!!) killing 1 Million people or the UK in India or the west allies killing 1,5mio in Irak (In the year 1990 - for what reason? because there were nuclear weapons??? )...etc. etc. etc.
scientifically, the issue is called cultutal-centricism, lobbyism and out-of-control-capitalism...Turkey will never enter the EU, europeans have lost their chances, Turkey will join his historical friends in the orient and one day they will succeed just because of demographical facts, it's a pity, because, still there are wise europeans, but they are a small minority (i hope i'm wrong)...
I am deeply sorry but please don't consider every Turk as slaughters.
love_and_light:
I concur and whether those are genocide or not, (I mean you can put a noun for those acts), the conscience of a human cannot deny such acts and unfortunately, the humankind sometimes swerve really badly as in the links you provide.
so tell me, what were the Belgians doing in Kongo (1890-1910), when they killed 15mio (!!!!) Africans (why don't european media write about that, explain!), what were the French doing in Algery killing 1 mio (in the 1950ies), the western allies killing 1,5 mio in Irak (1990ies) (for more details see #55), if those events weren't a genocide with high-tec-weapons against the civilian population, what was it then, explain! Explain without being a one-sided lobbyist, be fair! love&light!
so tell me, what were the Belgians doing in Kongo (1890-1910), when they killed 15mio (!!!!) Africans (why don't european media write about that, explain!), what were the French doing in Algery killing 1 mio (in the 1950ies), the western allies killing 1,5 mio in Irak (1990ies) (for more details see #55), if those events weren't a genocide with high-tec-weapons against the civilian population, what was it then, explain! Explain without being a one-sided lobbyist, be fair! love&light!
Cover-up of the fact that Anatolia is the historic homeland of Armenians and Assyrians has been part of Turkish state policy since 1923.
Speaking of Adana, I met a young Turkish man in his mid 20s from Adana a couple of years ago. He was a student in the U.S. We became chummy because we had some things in common and we could speak with each other in Turkish. One day he told me that I was the first Armenian that he had ever met. Before the Genocide, there were thousands of Armenians living in Adana. Armenian churches litter the landscape in and around Adana. Adana was the center of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia established in the mid 1300s. It was painful to hear that this young man had never met an Armenian in a city that was once a center of Armenian life. He also was surprised to hear from me that Armenians ever had lived in Adana. Another surprise was that Armenians can speak Turkish and don't hate Turks.
I don't know what point you're trying to make. I gave the link to that picture since Istanbul was mentioned as "Constantinople" purposefully in a previous message. After all its never too late to get your facts straight.
I did not say Turkey is a perfect or even better than average democracy.
EU membership would be nice but I don't think its a must for Turkey. But it has nothing to do with the subject and again, I don't know what point you're trying to make.
I am not gonna waste my time anymore by writing here.
First, go ahead and investigate the genocides done by Europeans in the 20th century. Ottoman never had overseas colonies like many European nations did centuries ago. Study what happened to those colonies.
Heck, If you really wanna see a genocide, read about American Indians. But Ottoman Turks were defending their homeland against "great Europe's civilized nations" and it was a war, not a genocide.
Thank you for your apology, I wish the Turkish state would also recognise and apologise for the attempted Genocide committed against the Assyrians, Greeks and Armenians in 1915. I am sure such a measure will bring about closure and bring the various peoples closer together. I have never and will never label all Turks as slaughterers - the attempted Genocide of 1915 was a policy adopted by the then government and I realise would have gone against the wishes of many ordinary Turks.
A few years ago, 4 members of my family visited our village of Jilu (Hakari - South East Turkey), disguised as American tourists, the first time our people set foot in their land since 1915. Believe it or not, the church that was built by my ancestors 1500 years ago still stands and is revered by the local Kurds who now inhabit the land. I have pictures and videos of their trip and what a beautiful place it is, I also hope to see it before I depart from this world.
About Armenians in Turkey, to be honest I have seen some people there who swear to me that they were Turks but they had way to big of the nose. I just know they had Armenian blood. :)
learn more about the turkish documents which are available in internet here is the link. Unfortunately it is even hard to understand for a turkish speaker but it shows it seems more like a war between armenians under support of russians against ottoman empire
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/
I am really sorry about the commentators that explained their losses.It is a tragedy but you should know there are lost ones in turkish families as well.
Black Sea(mostly minorities but of course all people eventually in same genetic ppol) people have also big noses. :) I lived in Ankara we dont have many armenians there but as people i have met people are very open about their origins eventhough some changed their names and surnames. Of course, they may not know about their origins in some cases like descends of orphans etc.
I do not blaim anyone or defend anyone. I was sharing my personal expirence and expirence of my family.
The difference between you and others is that you are denying what your ancestors did.
About poor minoritis in America: i am an imigrant came to USA in 1991 with 50 dollars in the pocket. almost 20 years later i owe 2 homes, 2 cars and have a great job. America is a land of opportunity but money does not grow on trees here. ( well for USA goverment they do)
by the way, you doing great job by stearing the arguments towards America problems and away from Turkey. You should be working for Turkey goverement.
I have to go now, will check comments in 2 hours.
This article is about the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocide that was carried on by Ottomans. Genocide is a crime and doesn't matter where and when it happened.
I am a product of American public education. Rest assured that children in America learn about the slaughter of Native Americans, and that the U.S. government and the government of the individual states teaches it. We are very aware that the Native American peoples were decimated in what is perhaps the most complete Genocide ever committed. I only wish Turkey treated the history of the Armenian Genocide in the manner that the U.S. treats the history of the slaughter of the Native American people. If it did, there would be no need for Genocide resolutions throughout the world. Furthermore, you're the one who is trying to use the slaughter of the Native-American people in a political way to somehow argue against the Armenian Genocide resolution, not Yura.
Now for you Antioche,
The only people still pretending to have any doubt about the intentions of the Ottoman authorities is you the Turks. Nobody else who has studied the Armenian Genocide is irrational enough to understand that a video-taped testimony of the Young Turks admitting their intention is unecessary. The circumstantial evidence is abundant. The Young Turks weren't so stupid to understand the consequences of uprooting women, children, and elderly and forcing them on foot over hundreds of miles with no food, water, or shelter to a desert with no provisions to sustain life. Any idiot would realize that such an act would result in the death of almost everyone. I presume from your login name that you are a Turk living in Sweden. The next time you visit your homeland, why don't you take a little trip to Diyarbakir, and then take a walk from there to the Syrian Desert during the summer; but don't pack more than a couple days worth of food and water; don't wear any special modern hiking gear; no sunglasses; no sunblock; no tent or sleeping bag, and no while you're at it, bring your little sister and your grandma with you. Let's see if you survive that journey! The bottom line is that if the Young Turks didn't realize their deportation orders would result in the death of the vast majority of the deportees, then they were complete idiots. And we all know they weren't complete idiots, only maniacal murderers!
"About Armenians in Turkey, to be honest I have seen some people there who swear to me that they were Turks"
feeling as "Turk" due to fear of discrimination or let's say this is an assimilation.
@Antioche:
"There is a difference between denying a massacre and the term 'genocide'."
Ok, you are right in your points in your post but don't you think it's unfair that while a government says let's discuss the history, on the other hand bans every idea regarding existence of a genocide? Doesn't that mean whatever anyone says, the state won't be changing my idea? I mean even there is no genocide at all, I find the idea of state a little deceiving.
Regards.
where did i deny what, show me, i am inviting you and others to think and act scientifically and fair, asking you to explain me some simple facts (see #55 and #62), ... because if you're not fair, you're making things worse and the planet is bad enough...
@yura77
you started the comparison with the americans and the indians (or somebody else, as you said before), not me, America is a land of opportunities, yes and a land with lots of wisdom, beauty and equality, I know, but there is also a dark side, designed by some lobbyists to raise their own power and not(!) the peace on the planet...why should Turkey pay and others not (see #55 & #62), just because there is no powerful christian-lobby behind? do you think that's fair? or do you think this would empower the peace on the planet...sweet dreams...love&light!
Well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nemesis seems to be enough punishment for the people behind the situation, don`t you think?(with british support of course.)
As i understand there was a war between armenians and ottomans at that time since the empire is very weak of fighting in many battlefields but there were a resistance and movement of independent from 30-40 years before 1915.Thousands of armenian militia were exist at that time. You should keep in mind after balkan war, millions of turkish people in balkans got their way back to anatolia and thousands of them slaughtered because ottoman empire lost this battle so fact that noone can ever expected. That may trigger local population that same thing may happen again and already many turkish villages were busted by armenian militia.This is not official thesis, i have relatives from the region Elazig,Harput in eastern anatolia that witnessed these.
I dont want to justify what happened but just to
answer #55 and #62 if you really are interested in a fair and scientifically founded debate, I don't know what school you visited in the us, i dont believe that this is the common way they talk about that issue, but anyway i didn't start this comparison, your "friends did" (see above)...i visited (maybe the "best" schools in europe) to know enough about the distorted view to history as mentioned in #55 and #62
You are denying it. I don't have to be a scientist to see it. You are trying to changing the subject and that is a way of denying.
again! show me, where i deny what, ... like I said before, your "friends" changed the subject, not me, say something to #55 or #62, cause if you can't, you don't say anything at all, ...
now I go sleep, maybe we'll continue our discussion tomorrow, hoping to find you and your friends being more rational in their considerations, good night...
That changes kind of fast more ideas came to place but i believe the government and people want to stay as a whole since noone listens about their theories and sayings. It is very obvious that this is not only clarification of historic event or make rest of the souls of people died, it is organized move. Armenian people have the only agenda to make armenian genocide a non-negotiable thing like what it is in Switzerland and France where you can`t discuss armenian genocide anymore you need to accept it. Other thing is Armenia doesnt accept the border they use a mountain of Turkey as national symbol and use east turkey as western armenia.You should understand people need to hold their stand. And if you go to eastern Anatolia and ask about stories of 1915 they will accept that many armenians were killed but also before that many muslim as well, women that poisoned the clothes of soldiers, militias demolished villages etc, like a death and like situation.
I believe as long as Armenians have claims on Turkey which noone can deny, and get big brothers in the issue that wont work on Turkish people that only makes people more defensive. I also believe most people believe that you cannot classify it as a genocide by heart. Genocide associated with holokost in Turkey not Darfur or such which is one of a kind in many minds.
There was no Armenian military in 1915. In fact Turkish government took Armenian youth to join the ottoman army and then killed them. This was the beginning of the killings; they wanted to get rid of the possible fighting force. After this they started to kill the children, women and older.
This is all documented well enough so that many historians and more than 20 countries recognize the Armenian genocide.
I know that there were no Armenian military and i am aware that while many armenians were fighting in Gallipoli their families were gone but I talked about guerillas.It is hard to give any credit the parliaments since they are politicians and they are using these issues for many reasons. But noone can argue that there is not a independence movement with armed people and the condition is more like civil war especially in WW1. Anyway, that is what I believe and it is hard to change well-settled minds and we dont believe documents that each other present. I am sorry about what happened in any case. I didn`t personally affected by the situation but i can understand why people want international recognition even have their motherland back,But for the latter of course there is no solution and i believe it is really suspicious why this issue is top of the news all the time perhaps just common hatred and fear against turkey. Ironically, same thing happens in Armenia-Azerbajican now with allegations of committed genocide by both sides. They say there is 1 million people ran away from Karabakh to Azerbaijcan and Armenia is accepted as invader in there. So i guess role and actors change but we are all the same.
That's partially true but that doesn't change the deceit in the state since we cannot bare to listen the others' thesis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink
"Armenian people have the only agenda to make armenian genocide a non-negotiable thing like what it is in Switzerland and France where you can`t discuss armenian genocide anymore you need to accept it"
Turkish people have only agenda to make armenian genocide a non-negotiable thing like what it is in again in Turkey where we can't discuss armenian genocide at all.
"Other thing is Armenia doesnt accept the border they use a mountain of Turkey as national symbol and use east turkey as western armenia."
Ok, last come last served and I admit it is not very pleasent for turkey but armenians "were" living there too. The tense is past since we force them to immigrate.
"And if you go to eastern Anatolia and ask about stories of 1915 they will accept that many armenians were killed but also before that many muslim as well, women that poisoned the clothes of soldiers, militias demolished villages etc, like a death and like situation."
But that doesn't change the "systematical" exile which results in mass deaths and this really sounds like a genocide to me or something really close to it. I mean I cannot comprehend your statement, are you implying that any nation has a right to have acts that may lead such results if the citizens are in danger? At least for the displacement, Ottoman and JeuneTurks should support the basic needs and could have prevent mass killings.
All in all, I got the point of yours and admit to some extent regarding the discussion stuff of both sides but I find neither turkish state nor armenian state are really sincere upon this issue and probably won't be as in my other posts.
It's obvious you don't know the history of WWI, how the Ottomans entered it, how the Ottomans treated their Christian minorities before it, and how the Christian minorities responded to their ill treatment. And you certainly don't know who the Armenians sided with during WWI. My great-grandfather, an Armenian, was a military leader for the Ottoman Empire during WWI. The vast majority of Ottoman Armenians were loyal to the Ottoman Empire during WWI. The Armenians you are referring to as "being in a war" were Russian citizens fighting for their country, Russia. There were Ottoman Armenians living near the Russian border who defected and joined the Russian army, but they were few in number. Moreover, do you find that to be a valid excuse for slaughtering all Armenians, including women and children, from all across Anatolia?
Isn't it odd for you that many nations do have problems with turkey? So if you think that it is ok to kill a nation and occupy its territory illegally than I am sorry for you. Then don't get surprised that this kind of resolutions are going to be more and more in the future until the entire world is in one side and the turkey on the other.
I am very happy that in nowadys world full of lie and dirt, the voice of truth has been raised!! Bravo Sweden!!!
Because the Belgians, and everyone else, have generally admitted it, long ago. When King Leopold II's personal little enterprise was brought to publicity in Europe, it was a disgrace, even in Belgium, even in 1905. I don't hear a lot of people saying it did not happen. Therefore, no one has need to talk about it.
For Western forces in Iraq and Afghanistan: no one is denying there was a war and people got killed. Plenty of people protest them at home (and plenty of people in those countries are thankful for the intervention, although that angle is not as much discussed in Western media). The contested issue is what alternative history would have been if those countries hadn't been occupied: how many dead over years of sanctions, what other wars there would have been.
With Ottomans and Armenia, if you stop denying it happened, we could proceed to the phase where we should be with e.g. Iraq: debate what the alternative history could have been, and how to go forward.
With Turkey and Armenia, the way forward seems to be that Turkey withdraws ambassadors, and hopefully EU negotiators as well.
However, all I want is to see the Armenian Goverment opening its archives about 1915. Could anyone please tell me that why the Armenia is behaving like this and not opening their archives?
I kindly ask you not to see the subject by the "Western" point of view, but also see it from all perspectives.
I can debate on the issue with you as long as you want and as long as we are objective and not moving on with our emotions.
I also want to ask that whether any French Historians can make research about these issues against the Armenia in France? Yeah, it is out of law in France saying that "there was no genocide" but I do not know if it is also out of law that making scientificaly reasarch about these issues in universities in France? Just curious about that.
Just another example in a very long list of what happens when Muslims are a majority in a country. Second class citizenry for minorities at best, massacres at worst.
don't take it personal, but your argumentation (#90) is so poor, noone(!) is talking about that what happened then and africa is still suffering from those events, you can read no article in newspapers or read no book or watch no reports on tv about all those events, described in #55 and #62, just because those genocides were made by christian, this is called culture-centricism in science...shame on those, who support such theories, because you support injustice with those theses, again, don't take it personal, my words are meant for the system...
Hey Armenia you can not discover false "Armenian Genocide" and you can not realize it, because it is not reality. There was not any Genocide.
Anar from Azerbaijan
Russia,
Germany,
China,
Japan
USA, yes, USA,
Australia,
UK,
Belgium,
Indonesia,
Iraq,
maybe Israel...
You know, Turkish, as Michael Jackson sing: You are not alone...
Don t be so jumpy!
@jazzIIIlove
Man, leave the Ipod, buy a Renault car or a Fiat and you ll see those, along with others brands, are made in Turkey.
Peace!
We cant hide the truth !
Best
And stop useing the statement that this resolution will affect the ongoing developments in relations between Armenia and Turkey as a shield for trying to escape the truth!!!!!!! . About what relations one can talk having the genocide behind, vica versa the recognition will help in the future to develop more sustainable relations with your neighbours.
Thank you for those Turks that are brave enough to say what cbe(#93) said!!! I am sure there are many such kind of people in Turkey itself.
We have nothing to afraid from our history.. Think again...
I am kindly asking from all the commenters that "why the Armenia does not open its archives although the Turkey is opening its".
If there are some research to make about this issue, then it will be the best to make the research by reviewing all the documents that exist? Do I sound right?
I am saying it again. I dont know whether there were genocide or not but I am ready to accept any genocide. But are you ready to accept any truth that will reveal after Armenia opens its archives?
Armenia has nothing to hide, the fact are abundant and you can even find the in national archieves of England, Russia, France, The Vatican end etc.
Regarding Armenian archieves they are open for everybody, you can find them if you wish in Genocide Museum in Armenia, even you can visitthis link : http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/index.php
I am saying you once again, we even DO NOT DOUBT the fact there there was a GENOCIDE, but if you need proofs for that go and see everywhere in the World.
What you are saying now is different form the meaning you impose.
We do not affraid of any facts, but it is offensive to say question your fact just because Turkey wants this. If you have questions go and ask, we do not have doubts about our past.
Okey, you do not have doubts about your past and Turkey does not have doubts about its past. So? You should let your historians convince Turkish historians instead of your politicians convince other politicians?
The thing that you are saying, "DO NOT DOUBT the fact that there was a genocide", totally made me think that you are not approaching the issue objectively and you are moving on with your emotions.
I am not the one who will decide whether there was a genocide by looking at the documents. Because I am not a historian. If you are a historian, then you are very welcome.
I, however, had a look at the webpage you mentioned and I think, it is a good progress in order to inform people about the 1915.
I will be convinced if a council, which is formed by the historians from Armenia, Turkey and if needed from any other country, says "yes, it was a genocide" or "no it was not a genocide" after examining all the documents, photographs and any other thing that humanity have now. Otherwise, just saying "ohh, there was a genocide, you better accept that" or " we did not cause a genocide, it was a war OK?" makes no sense.
What is the wrong thing about the idea that a council formed by historians decide whether there was a genocide or not? Just please say one thing which proves it is wrong becuse bla bla bla bla.....
I am saying it again, I am ready to accept any genocide. But let us let historians decide it.
We are living in the same country. Could you tell me that you find the state or any other institute here, in Turkey sincere?
How can we explain "let the historian resolve this" thesis while we are "killing" Armenians or harrasing the ones who try to discuss in Turkey?
This is a simple brainwashing of Turkish state and you are acting in the group of lambs and I am the black sheep.
Of course, I am asking same above questions to Armenian side too.
Personally, forcing an exile without sustaining the base necessities of humanbeing smells something like genocide or something really close to this and I embrace my past unlike you.
How you explain the whole nation suffering from such a pain falsely? How you will explain the whole nation spreaded around the world? How you will look into the eyes of our grandmothers and grandfathers who saw it and say "it was just a war".
How you are going to define the actions of your ancestors?
Then I doubt that you and people like you have enough brain or logic to explain or even try to analyse the GENOCIDE!!!!
No armenian can forgive this, because I cannot see my grandfathers and grandmothers crying from the pain, suffering that they lost their families, homes, brothers and sisters. Seeing how they were killed!!!!
Do you think this is something that can be discussed?
I am not blaming the Turk people that live nowadays, just be human, recognize the "mistakes" if I can call the such, that your ancestors did. This is all that we want.
Please look my first message in this page, (#93), then decide what I am thinking about the goverment or any instution in Turkey.
Yes, you are right. Hrant Dink was killed in Turkey but there are some people who showed and still showing strong reaction to this."http://images.google.com/images?q=hepimiz%20hrant%C4%B1z&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:tr:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=tr&tab=wi"
I know, it is not enough but I am so sad that it happened and sharing the sorrow of these people.
But, an international committee, which is under the control of UN or any other strong foundation, may discuss the issue. Why does it sound so impossible?
Or let us continue by voting this historical issue in parlaments?
I respect your decision about the genocide but I think I deserve the same respect from you.
By the way, you do not even know me but still you have some opinions about in which group I am acting. Hah, you made me laugh man.
Gladly, the link you provide shows the reaction and proves not all Turks are brainwashed.
You are a day late and a dollar short, as they say in America. That means that what you want, which is for historians to make the conclusion, has already been done. There are dozens and dozens of books written by non-Armenians, not only about the fact of the Genocide, but on comparative studies comparing it to other Genocides, studying the causes of the Genocide, studying its psychological impact on survivors, studying the humanitarian aspects of the history of the Armenian Genocide, and studying the history behind Turkey's present denial of the Genocide. You should read some of these books before coming here and saying you don't know whether it was or it was not, and that you want a "historical commission" to make the decision. It's not our (Armenians') fault that Turks don't want to read the vast fields of literature that already exist regarding the Armenian Genocide. Even the "historical commission" that you seek has been done. It was done in 2003 between Turks and Armenians, and again the conclusion was a Genocide. When you come here and demand things that have already been done, you just sound foolish and ignorant. The historians have spoken load and clear. It's up to you whether you want to listen or ignore!
I've noticed this...countries that lost in the wars are accused of committing massacres and attempted genocide.
The Armenians will never forget just like the Jews will never forget.
Bt the way, the schools in the US do in fact teach that the govt wrongly killed and stole land from the Natives/Indians. Today they receive educational benefits just for being Indians and they have their own courts on their reservations. I live near a reservation. I spend a bit of money there buying liquor which is legal on the reservation but not in the surrounding town. I can say that in my part of the US, we respect Indians.
It has always mystified me why the Turkish Government has been in denial for so long. Many nations, including my own, have done things they should have been ashamed of. But it is better all round that the truth come out.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
And then you read the Sweden's Minister of Foreign Affairs Carl Bildt's speech expressing his concern regarding the ruling and stating ' "History can not be politicized." How ironic !
The Turkish Lie:
watch?v=AVJSUYkkXSk&feature=player_embedded
To all those commenting on the genocide of the indigenous peoples of North America. Anything less than returning their lands to them are empty words...speaking with forked tongue.
As far as genocide goes, its obvious it was one. The mass purposeful killing of thousands of people from the same race = genocide. End of story.
However, who the hell does Carl Bildt think he is saying the vote was a "mistake". It was a democratic vote. Does he think that democracy is a "mistake" then. Probably.
Your recognition of Armenian Genocide has only strengthened your humanitarian call to Genocide perpetrators in the world that their crimes against humanity will not forgotten and forgiven!
Turkey has to blame only herself for the Genocide committed, 95 years of Denial, Falsification & Repudiation of the facts!
Turkey has to ADMIT & REPENT!
Denial is the last phase of a genocide.
This great quotes are from the documentary called Screamers which is prepared by System of a down. You can watch it from youtube legally. Just add this line after youtube /watch?v=AVJSUYkkXSk
As an Armenian I want to thank to the Swedish Parlement. The recognition is important to prevent further genocides.
The problem is the Turks. They are still in denial. If they would admit what happened then the repair process could begin and people would get on with their lives. The Germans admitted genocide against the Jews, etc. Now its time for Turkey to finally come clean.
]Exile in the Ottoman Empire
The Turks initially welcomed the Swedish king, who managed to incite a war between the Ottomans and the Russians. His expenses during his long stay in the Ottoman Empire were covered from the Ottoman state budget, as part of the fixed assets "
by Wiki ..
Thank you very much for your " kind " response Sweeden ... We will never forget this ...
Just as almost every year, Armenian propaganda and the initiatives of the Armenian lobby have gained momentum to pressure upon the US President over the speech he will deliver on April 24.
Every year prior to April 24, the Armenian lobby increases pressure upon the US President over the speech he will deliver. But the difference now compared to the previous years is that the aim of the considered resolution by the Foreign Affairs Commission is to corner Turkey into ratifying the protocols. The same is valid for the Sweden parliement's decision.
However, they are the Constitutional Court of the Republic of Armenia's decisions which have brought the process to point of zero. Because:
The court stated that the protocols can not be interpreted or applied in a way that would contradict paragraph 11 of Armenian Declaration of Independence.
Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990 refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia.
Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis "the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia", it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims.
Additionally paragraph 11 also states that The Republic of Armenia stands in support of the task of achieving international recognition of the 1915 Armenian genocide in Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia.
The entire history of the Ottoman Empire and contemporary Turkey is a series of continuous imperialism, slaughter,plunder and endless bloodshed of the people who had the misfortune to be conquered by the Turks.
Armenians, Greeks, Syrians, Arabs, Kurds and recently Cypriots were the victims of the Turkish brutality.
The genocide of Armenians and Greeks is numbered in millions of victims. Tens thousands were victims of Syrians, and Arabs in South East Asia Minor.
Hitler´s right hand the leader of the Armenian batallion Drastamat Kanayan has a big mausoleum in Amenia. Armenians are showing their pride in this way. More to read about Hitlers Armenian batallion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenische_Legion
http://www.amazon.com/Armenia-Samuel-Weems/dp/0971921237
So with the same logic
1. Should Austria be responsible for things which might have happened /(perhaps happened) in Habsburg Empire?
2. Should Italy be responsible for things which might have happened /(perhaps happened) in Roman Empire?
3. Should Turkey be responsible for things which might have happened/(perhaps happened) in Ottoman Empire?
P.S: Ottoman Empire existed betwen 1299-1922,
What a joke! It's not secret that all of them are living well in Los Angels, Paris, Moscow, Istanbul, Stockholm, etc next to all of us.
This issue must be left to historians. The Swedish parliament should deal with its own business. Turkish-Armenian Civil War as well as other wars shouldn't be exaggerated!