Anti Swedish protests continue in Turkey

Dont worry about that we turks, forget things fairly easily. But it will affect swedish enterprises in short term,

Just another example of a country (government?) refusing to confront (admit) the dark aspects of their pasts. E.G. Germany, Nazis; Italy, Fascists,;USA, Indians (er... Native Americans); Japan, China; etc...

Past is past! People should live at the present

Turkish are just going deeper and deeper in their lies.

It worth the money Sweden could loose, the moral superiority will pay on the long term.

Thanks for the love people. This much of hatred can only be exist in Europe I guess after that Europeans destroyed many cultures with their imperial race in many continents and know they are talking about moral superiority. Tell that superiority to Danish in Scania and Samis in Lappland.

As one my friend said: They also could take all turks out of the sweden. I don't think that anyone would cry about that.

antioche, there is no animosity between denmark and sweden. Skåne is Swedish now and there is a bridge connecting the two countries and a region full of daily country hopping. Get your facts and history right.

Read up on Samis as well...

@Antioche:

>>Thanks for the love people. This much of hatred can only be exist in Europe

Oh really?? We, Turks, are all saints after all??

I recommend checking the following link:

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/6-7_Eyl%C3%BCl_Olaylar%C4%B1

Unlike us, which unfortunately not only we force them to immigrate (I am not talking armenians only), but also killed most of them in the way of their exile, thank god, Sweden took them out of their misery and embraced them.

I love the perception "Past is past".

Yes, past is past but do we have any lessons from past? After 1915, as in the above link, what happened to Armenians? Vanished instantly? What about the ones who are in danger of their ideas now? After all present is present.

I think you need to visit Nobel Museum for the refreshments.

Regards.

" By the time of the decisive Battle of Poltava, Charles had been wounded, one-third of his infantry was dead, and his supply train was destroyed. The king was incapacitated by a coma resulting from his injuries and was unable to lead the Swedish forces. Charles had 14,000 men while Peter had 45,000. The battle was a disaster, and the king fled with a small entourage south to the Ottoman Empire, where he set up camp at Bender with about 1,000 men who were called Caroleans ("Karoliner" in Swedish). The Swedish defeat at Poltava is considered by some historians to be the point where the downfall of the Swedish Empire started and the Russian Empire started to rise.

Exile in the Ottoman Empire

The Turks initially welcomed the Swedish king, who managed to incite a war between the Ottomans and the Russians. His expenses during his long stay in the Ottoman Empire were covered from the Ottoman state budget, as part of the fixed assets "

by Wiki ..

Thank you very much for your " kind " response Sweden ... We will never forget this ...

@Someone from Istanbul:

Thanks for the information regarding "fixed asset Charles".

So, you expect that Sweden should cover up our mess, since we helped their leader. Nice going. Keep going in this way.

Btw, It would be better to tell the whole story here.

However, the sultan Ahmed III's subjects in the empire eventually got tired of Charles' scheming and they besieged the Topkapi Palace and this uprising was called "kalabalik" (Crowd) which after this event found a place in Swedish lexicon as "kalabalik" referring to uprising. The Janissaries did not shoot Charles during the skirmish at Bender, but captured him and put him under house-arrest in Constantinople. During his imprisonment the King played chess and studied the Turkish navy.

Meanwhile, Russia and Poland regained and expanded their territories. Great Britain, an ally of Sweden, defected from its alliance obligations while Prussia attacked Swedish holdings in Germany. Russia seized Finland and Augustus II regained the Polish throne.

Charles succeeded in leaving his imprisonment in Constantinople and returned to Swedish Pomerania on horseback, riding across Europe in just fifteen days

@Someone from Istanbul:

The Ottomans did not allow Charles in out of the goodness of their hearts. They were playing power politics as well as any other nation at the time, so get off your high camel.

Turkey can go to hell. they should accept their wrong and ask for clemency rather than make noise.

I can't believe how brainwashed all Swedes about this Armenian-Turkish conflict.

I just don't understand the reason of all this hatred after reading the messages posted here. When all this happened there was no Turkey for gods sake. It was Ottoman Empire. Turkey never tried to invade the whole Europe like Germans, oh sorry, "Nazis" did. Never had a regime other than democracy unlike Russians, oh sorry "Soviets", and never had overseas colonies like the awesome empire of the Queen had.

Everything Turkey has been doing since the establishment of the country was trying to keep the homeland in one piece, and now you people come and criticize this country for basically defending itself, like your nations are all guilt free!

As an individual who used to believe in Europe and European values and a Turkey in EU only until a couple of years ago, I am just extremely disappointed. Yes Turkish people tend to forget things easily, but you're forgetting that the ancestors of these people used to ruled the world once.

I am wondering what will the EU do in a few decades (if there wil be an EU then) when they find a much stronger and larger neighbor that is not any friendlier than today's Russia.

@silly t:

Your comment looks like your nick. You sound you have no different from the naysayyers here just on the very opposite site.

You keep going too, by belittling entire nation and you expect that nation will repent his actions in the past.

After all, you mean each and every person living in Turkey deserves going hell.

@jazzIIIlove

I don`t say we are saints. I am saying no one is saint in this world especially in the history, even a high democracy like Sweden(besides they are huge arm dealers one of the top) with actions against minorities in Sweden as far as prevent them to not give childbirth. Do you know gypsies needed to carry a special id card with them in France UNTIL 1970. I can`t understand that people wrap all evil in one pot and name it as a turk.

I respect your willingness to critisize your own country(some people do that just to be appreciated by europeans and show that he/she is not like them but i dont know you so i wont label you with that especially when you are anonymous ) but you need to see the hatred here. It was like that hundred years ago as well you can see if you check old newspapers and regulars. It is a very clear to say that turkish people are this centuries jewish in Europe.(which were kicked out from Spain 600 years before holocaust and run to Ottoman Empire by guess who)

Absurdddd, Sweden who gives such a decision! Will pay the price in sweden

What is "regretable" is not the vote that the Swedish Parliament took which was the correct and courageous thing to do, but that Sweden has a spineless Foregn Minister who would allow Turkey impose a gag on the Swedish Parliament.

The biggest and most shameful genocide ever done in the history of mankind was the dropping of atomic bomb on the civilians by USA. Sweden can not dare to call it genocide... but now move against Turkey has some other agenda, which is very understandable to those who has the vision. The slogan is "moral value" but the ultimate objective is "economic value" in this whole game play.

@Antioche:

I agree no nation are saint after all, individuals having something in common form a nation or lead to form a nation and I am not in favor of condemning an entire nation as evil or so. All the comments in favor of denying this genocide act have the followings in general:

1) There was a war between nations vs. Ottoman and muslims are killed due to acts of armenian groups in Anatolia. So, Ottomans have right to defend their state.

My reply, we don't have the right to force minorities an exile which result in obvious massacres done by the majorities in Ottoman willingly/unwillingly. I mean we could have a peaceful dissolution which sounds right now a treason to the nation.

2) Armenians supporting Russians deserved it since we are in war. Turks didn't kill them instantly but force them for an exile.

My reply, what is the difference between killing a huge group instantly and being a cause for the mass deaths due to forcing them without having preparation for their basic needs?

3) Turks are not descendants of Ottoman Empire. Turks have no obligation to accept the past of Ottoman Empire.

Then, why Turkey paid for the debts for Ottoman Empire? I don't think it's logical to pay the debts of a former empire if you don't think it's ascendant of Turkey.

4) "Let historian decide" thesis: One morning when we wake up, can we accept that if the historians are not thinking in the way we are thinking? This sounds no to me in this situation when we consider what happened to the ones who are in favor of genocide term in Turkey. Here same goes Armenian side too.

Of course, the other examples concerning mass massacres does exist too which in fact a disingenuous of some countries in Europe.

Note that my criticise towards my country doesn't concern requesting sympathy from Europe or Armenia. I am aware the other nations had done in their past. I want their repent regarding those atrocities too.

In fact the roots of that problem is unfortunately nationalism which is a disease together with religion which kills.

Regards.

Mr. Carl Bildt should resign as Foreign Minister of Sweden.

He has lost any remnant of moral authority he may have possesed before he announced as "regretable" the vote of the Swedish Parliamant, whch after all is an elected body and should be free of intimidation by either foregn governments or spineless domestic officiais who are beholden to special interests.

Please read more in here

http://www.turkishny.com/headline-news/2-headline-news/26098-ermeni-soykrm-iddiasna-evet-diyenleri-utandracak-fotoraflar

Sweden is making solid grounds to stay "NOT NEUTRAL" in any next world war in future.

@t1tuzmen:

As a Turk, do you ask the question to yourself: "Where are those Armenians right now?" That photo implies a well treat towards some armenians but what happened to the vast majority of armenians? If you have a visit to eastern regions, you can see lots of armenian churchs or so. So, why don't they return their homeland after their exile? After all, they are not in holiday in Europe or so?

Moreover, don't you find a little embrassing to inspire Hitler?

"Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

Every year prior to April 24, the Armenian lobby increases pressure upon the US President over the speech he will deliver. But the difference now compared to the previous years is that the aim of the considered resolution by the Foreign Affairs Commission is to corner Turkey into ratifying the protocols. The same is valid for the Sweden parliement's decision.

However, they are the Constitutional Court of the Republic of Armenia's decisions which have brought the process to point of zero. Because:

The court stated that the protocols can not be interpreted or applied in a way that would contradict paragraph 11 of Armenian Declaration of Independence.

Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990 refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia.

Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis "the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia", it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims.

Additionally paragraph 11 also states that The Republic of Armenia stands in support of the task of achieving international recognition of the 1915 Armenian genocide in Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia.

hey hey heyyyyyyyyyyy Antioche and CO.

charles was actually in moldova-romania,,, which was occupied by ottomons. He had the hospitality of Romanian public.

II

This means that:

1) Since genocide is accepted as a reality fort he Armenians, it will not be possible to discuss whether the 1915 events are genocide or not in the Sub-commission on the Historical Dimension mentioned in the Second Protocol. Therefore, the question arises of what this Sub-commission's task will be.

In response, it has been expressed that its task will include the discussion of issues like returning back of Armenian properties left behind after the Armenian relocation, giving compensation to descendants of the relocated Armenians, and preserving Armenian monuments, such as churches, in Turkey. Turkey is not willing to re-examine these issues which have already been resolved with the Treaty of Lausanne.

2) By putting forth that some of the Turkish lands are in fact Armenian, Armenia indirectly claims a right over these territories. In other words, again indirectly, it does not recognize the border between the two countries.

I want to remind you that The main trigger to force USA to join WWI was the letter sent by German Foreign Minister Zimmerman to Mexico expressing support to Mexico to get back the Mexican states Arizona, Texas which had just been annexed by the USA.

Germany's claim on Zudetland and Gdansk just because they were its historical lands caused burst of World War II! The Worls history is a history of wars which broke up because of territorial claims of states.

While territorial claims are so important to be reasons of war, it is not possible to understand the indifference of the USA to the Armenian claims as an ally and of Sweden as a developed European country. Armenia, the US and Sweden have a false conviction that under such a pressure, Turkey will be forced to ratify the protocols.

Adoption of the resolutions in the House of Representatives and the Sweden Parliament clearly will damage the US-Turkey and Sweden-Turkey relations. Whether it is brought to the House Floor does not change the negative feelings of the Turks against the American politicians including the president.

This will also push Turkey-Armenia relations which have already reached a deadlock to enter into an irreversible path and will harm the normalization process. Rejection of the protocols by Turkey can even be possible.

For jazzIIIlove

Sorry, I can not tell you what happened in 1915

@ t1tuzmen

So, maybe you can comment on my last question:

don't you find a little embrassing to inspire Hitler?

"Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

@sendia

I haven`t heard about that, interesting to know. But obviously he spent some life of his in Istanbul which is described above by some other commenter where the "kalabalik" and "kåldolmar" came from.

@zubeyde

Good point. How can you come to an understanding to a country that only target is too tear Turkey down while they occupied and massacred Azerbaijan Turks.

@ jazzIIIlove

We know some turned back when French Army invaded southern Turkey and some did terrible things as well. It was clear that hatred came between two nations and the wars didnt stop until the agreement between two countries in 1921 which after-Soviet armenian government doesnt honour. There are documents in the archives(american etc.) about afterlife of many armenians in Lebanon and other countries the aid that they had get from these governments to start a new life. It is not against the fact that more than hundred thousand Armenian died in the period. But thousands of turkish-kurdish died in the conflict as well, I can give you a listed detail about that.

I advise everyone without a clear idea about what happened to check www.armeniangenocidedebate.com prepared by some american historians.

Hitler don 't care! I'll look at our history. And I'm proud. We did not make genocide...For more on the Ankara review our command

Moreover,

I'm sorry my english a little weak

ali_bin_umar... The Japanese had ample opportunity to surrender before the bomb was dropped. They defiantly refused and said we will fight till the last man, woman and child is killed. Even after both bombs were dropped they refused to surrender. Only the action of the emporer brought a surrender and even then there was a revolt against the surrender. The bombs saved literally millions of lives by ending the war sooner. It not only saved millions of Japanese that would have died, but millions of Chinese as well. 250,000 Chinese were dying each month from starvation, slaughter, and disease. If the war lasted another 2 years, that's 6 million Chines that were saved. So between the Chinese and Japanese that's tens of millions of lives saved. But hey, as far as you're concerned, there were so many of them, they don't count. they are yellow and you're not. How racist of you to put there lives as worth nothing. And of course there were the hundreds of thousands of American lives that were saved. That's war for you.

Sweden, the Americas, canada, russia and other countries that accept the draft! Are the ones actually doing genocide

Of course I meant to say, "How racist of you to put THEIR lives as worth nothing."

instead of,"How racist of you to put there lives as worth nothing. "

@t1tuzmen

Canada does not have a draft. If you read about it Americans ran to Canada during Vietnam to avoid the draft, hence being called draft dodgers.

And I highly doubt Sweden cares about Turkey protesting that the recognize the genocide that happened after all Turkey is a food not a country.

@Antioche:

As in my comment; jazzIIIlove #20: It's pretty obvious that you are in the part, they did massacre, we performed too.

The comment you have really looks like retaliation, but you seem not ok with what we have done.

>>It is not against the fact that more than hundred thousand Armenian died in >>the period.

But could you tell me that which one looks like systematic ours or theirs?

@zubeyde:

Very well said, and a proof of dishonesty of both sides.

@t1tuzmen:

Maybe you don't care but being inspired by Hitler is not something that even you are proud of.

@t1tuzmen

"Sweden, the Americas, canada, russia and other countries that accept the draft! Are the ones actually doing genocide "

English may be not your mother language but at least you can have an attempt to have google translate to support your idea, otherwise you attempt to convince people here is really pointless. Canada on genocide look funny to me. At least show some proof.

I would like to apologize about my comment about Turkey being a food and not a Country. It was thoughtless and childish.

Very well davo339. You are the most knowledgable one in this thread.

So, all in all the personalities look like in this thread as:

1) One in hatred again mocking the name of a country, really dumb comment.

2) Naysayer whatever it takes, even Hitler

3) Naysayer that both side committed massacres, yet, doesn't admit one is systematical.

4) One in hatred that arabs and turks are filthy immigrants that they have to leave Sweden immediately, commenting even without a simple research on both groups.

5) Naysayer that really supports her idea with very well arguments.

6) Naysayer that Sweden should cover up our mess, since we helped their leader.

7) Yessayer, that nations accepts their dark pasts.

8) Naysayer, saying forget about past (?), live in present.

there is a reason that Turkey hasn't been let into the EU yet!!!!!!!

if Sweden did this then Europe history is not so clean, should they pass resolution on matters between sweden and denmark or other countries.... its ridicolous

I think Sweden should make a peace offering to the Turkish people. Send a charter flight to Turkey with all of the politicians voted yes. If anything was to happen to those politicians whilst there, then the Swedish Parliment would at least have a genuine reason to have a vote.

@ Renfeh Hguh

Brilliant idea.

I however would make a minor modification to that idea.

I would send the entire parliament to Turkey to find out how they get on.

I do personally think the genocide was real, but a chance to get rid of a bunch of politicians. That is to good to ignore:)

I am reading the comments about sending the Sweden's parlamenters to Turkey with a big grin in my face.

I also, put that grin in my face when I say some Europens that I am Turkish after one or two hour of chat. The reaction makes me smile.

Ohh, gush, you do not like Turks are not you? The entire Turkish nation, probably, is responsible from all the wars that mankind has ever seen.

"entire Turkish nation, probably, is responsible from all the wars that mankind has ever seen"

Not at all, but they are responsible for the Armenian massacre. It's time they manned up and admitted it.

Sorry I am not buying the poor turkish sensibilities argument. Tell that to the millions of Armenians or for that matter the victims of the Ottoman Empire! I say go jump in the Med!

We all seem to be confusing the current Secular Turkish Republic, that has been an Allie in Korea and the cold war, with the crazy conquer the world for Islam, torture and enslave everybody Ottoman Empire.

One is a friend, except for the liberation of Iraq, and the other is as dead as Harold Hydrata's chance of becoming King of England.

We should judge them by how they act with Armenians today, not in the last century.

Sad about the Armenians, but sad about the loss of an entire generation in WWI also.

When Canada did the same thing in 2004 as Sweden just did, Turkey had a little girl hissy fit against Canada just like they're doing with Sweden now. The difference is that the Canadian prime minister didn't try to brown nose up to the Turks like Reinfeldt is doing. But then of course we're not part of the EU and dependent on Turkish workers for cheap labour.

The problem here is: isn't there an international body that can take care of this matter and where Sweden can give its opinion? why should Sweden turn it into a personal thing by voting internally? Are Swedish politicians the competent that can decide on historical facts? If genocide is bothering Sweden so much or other countries, why don't they start doing something about what is happening in Palestine? or are they waiting for it to turn into an historical fact that they will vote for after people have died?

@Psagajeva- I believe because Palestinians advocating Genocide of the Jews and supporting terrorism has made them a uniquely unsypathetic group. By the way, thanks for trying to re-dirct this story to Palestine, but this group did some really horrific murders during the cold war and is one of the true losers in the demise of the evil empire. Live ith it and choose your allies more carefully next time. On the good side, the US talked Israel out of pushing you into the ocean when she had your PLO cornered in Beirut like rats, so obviously she has no intention of genocide.

No we haven't forgotten Munich, the murder of the US diver, the murder of the old man on the Akili larrel, the murders at the Tel Aviv Airport, etc, etc. So go sit in the international penalty box.

I really wonder where you are from because you sound so subjective??? Btw, you addressed me in a way like im from palestine (in fact im not from any of these countries) and also your facts are just deaf to the mass killings of Palestinian children and women.

tuzmen:

"I'll look at our history. And I'm proud. We did not make genocide..."

Genocide or not, more than one million of innocent people died in the hands of the Ottoman Empire. Children were slaughtered, and you are proud? People like you make me sick.

Where is the line drawn? Belgium should be condemned for the population loss as a direct result of their policies, of many millions of Congolese over 2 decades, which occurred right up to just a few years before the Armenian genocide. At the same time - just a few years before the events in Armenia - was the Namibian genocide by Germany, as they slaughtered 60,000 over 3 years after an openly stated intension to take such a policy. So, there we have 60,000, and in Armenia 1,500,000 dead over about the same time span. Partly it's all about the present-day state of the countries, with the Congo in no shape to consider reviewing its past as important, and Armenia with a strong and stable situation able to feel the weight of its genocide. Would any Turks in the same position, imagining themselves citizens of a country that had suffered genocide only last century, be any less horrified at so many countries turning their back? Of course not! It's a question of morality verses patriotism.

Can you imagine if back in the days of West Germany during the height of the cold war, Sweden or the United States refrained form condemning the Holocaust for fear of upsetting or offending a strategic trade partner or an ally?

The United States does not deny the African-American slavery, or the Native Indian massacres, Germany does not deny the Namibian massacres, and Belgium does not deny the atrocities in Congo., etc. Turkey, however denies the Armenian genocide and existence of Armenians in their homeland of Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey). Turkey has laws (section 301) that severely persecutes anyone who utters the words Armenian genocide.

Swedish parliamentarian were not asked to interpret history to "qualify", "brand", "label", or "describe" the Armenian experience, but rather to acknowledge and affirm what the International Association of Genocide Scholars and seven former presidents of IAGS have already concluded as genocide.

Furthermore, Jurist Dr. Raphael Lemkin, a lawyer of Polish-Jewish descent, and Holocaust survivor coined the word "genocide" specifically to describe the destruction of Armenians and the barbarity that befell upon them at the hands of the Turkish State.

Genocide is not an issue that concerns only Armenians, Jews, and others; Genocide is a human rights issue that concerns everyone; It is a Swedish issue.

Genocide acknowledgment without accountability (punishment) is hollow and meaningless. Turkey must be held accountable for its crime of genocide.

The Armenian genocide is not a old issue; it is current on-going genocide 1915-2010. The last act of genocide is denial. Genocide stops when denial ceases.

Denial is not just the simple negation of an act; it is much more the consequent continuation of the very act itself. Genocide should not only physically destroy a community; it should likewise dictate the prerogative of interpretation in regard to history, culture, territory and memory. As the victims, Armenians never existed.

The Turkish have not only murdered humans , destroyed an ancient culture and civilization, and rewritten history, but *** Turkey continue to legitimize the act as well as the racist ideology that led to the act.*** This includes the legitimization of any and all stereotyping of the Armenian people as a dangerous enemy, as a deadly bogeyman in the closet. Denial is the final step in the completion of a mass extermination - and the first step towards the next genocide.

Rabbi Hillel said it best: "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?"