Saab 'surprise' at Romania fighter decision

You've got it in one, Richard Smith. It's cost.

Romania's armed forces will end up with someone else's junk.. American junk. I don't understand the terms: "generous 100 percent offset". The US is promising nothing, just sell the junk and disappear into the stormy night.

When Romania works out the cost of maintaining these second-hand US F-16s, they will gasp in horror. Sophisticated, albeit 2nd-hand fighter aircraft, need more maintenance, and more expensive spare parts.

When they fall out of the sky and kill their pilots and those innocents on the ground, who is responsible? The Americans who sold them, or the Romanians who bought them?

For "Romanian-US "strategic partnership", read "palm-greasing" and bribes.

Stick to the Saab Gripen fighter. I don't think an enquiry will help, though. Romania needed the discount, hence the deal. Where any 2nd-hand Saab Gripens offered?

For more information see,

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/nothing-but-netz-will-romanias-new-fighters-come-from-israel-01499/

The Grippen deal woudl ahve made more economic sense in the long run.

Then again Isreal sells of its junk, then buys a new wing of fighters. America gets the orders from Israel. Romania which is in th EU buys outside the EU.

European defense needs procurement, needs to come from within the EU.

In Romenia corruption is rampant. It is also known that the weapon industry is the most corrupt in the US. To say decision was made because of strategic reason is an insult to EU. Romania is supposed to have a close relation with Sweden. Very likely Bribe was paid. Sweden should dispatch an investigation and bring the case to World Trade Organization.

Romania is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, I am not surprised that they bought old and used F-16. Romania has also been one of the CIA sites for underground illegal combatants-tortur along with Poland. Rumours has it that the US wants to put nuclear missiles in Romania as well.

Last month Romania agreed to host the US missile defence shield. It's probably a package.

Interesting you focus on cost. This has much more to do with strategic defence than with money. It doesn't matter which fighters Romania purchases, it can't withstand attack without external help. So, buy from America and get US led NATO support, or save money now with SAAB and be one your own when the stuff hits the fan. I love it when articles like this take a very complex issue involving economy, military defence, deplomacy, etc. and whittles it down to one point, cost. Very misleading. If Romania thought their future security lay with Russia, they would have bought Migs.

I don't remember the last time Romania was in a serious war. And who the hell is going to attack them? The whole heaps of expats begin in the streets in Paris or Rome? At the end of the day, the fighter planes are for killing people so why is Saab pissed that its planes will not kill people in or around Romania is anyone's guess. What's Saab fighter planes track records? How many kills has it under its belts, etc? Would be good to have those figures.

perpaco, Romania history is riddled with war because of their location,, starting even before ottaman raids and they suffered a lot during world war 2. The Romania king wanted to be neutral after he managed to take power from Iron guards who were on the Axis alliance but they were brought back into war due to Axis pressure and had to let the red army use their territory which led to a lot or misery. They paid war indeminity to Russia even after they let them use their land and resources as the right wing army once fought along side with Nazis.

strategic partnership with US? Come´on!! Those won´t be able to even wash their F-16 without yankee permission . Another bad news for Grippen.

@Audrian

Can the swedish parlament vote for an investigation on this issue at the WTO?

Give me a break you american hater.

Ther is a reson the F16 is the most popular fighter jet in the world. This is no surprise, quality trumps untested cheap alternatives.

SAAB has "promised an offset of 100% because they were the underdog. It was to sweeten the deal but it wasn't enough.

@studentecon - your solution is to always get the WTO involved? why do you think they are more capable of making a decision than private companies or sovereign country???

You want the WTO to "even the score"? well that's just pure envy - which is what drives most hatred toward america. The end.

Sweden claims it has never been in war for 200 years but selling fighter jets means you are involved in wars. Due to the economic crisis you can boost jobs by selling weapons and creat misery in other countries. Isn't this being smart? Well, what goes around comes around.......

@americanska

(I told you , this is not personal)

Well, if private companies have different weights and deal with a economic and military superpower like U.S, I do agree that we have to report every abuse to the WTO which is the right place for such disputes.

I respect the american people, we are not talking about american people here, but if you think that if we talk about the american government is the same is talking about you, I´m very very sorry. But I will keep talking. That´s why life´s good.

And do me a favor, do not low the discussion standards here, ok?

Leo - modern warfare also brings peace. precision weapony that targets terrorists who enjoy the mass killing of innocents.

No one wants to buy Saab cars and its obvious that no one wants to buy saab fighter jets. The Brazilians have chosen to buy French fighter jets instead of Swedish and even now the Romanians are abandoning the Swedish fighter jets for the second hand American fighter jets. Ooh, poor Swedes! No one wants their products. Imagine second hand is still better than whats new in Sweden.

Leo - you are obviously pretty clueless on this subject. Don't bother anymore.

studentcon - the problem is you don't realize that the US governemt doesn't sell fighter jets. they allow private companies to sell them. We are not a socilist nation.

I agree that corruption needs to be controlled - that is how a free market economy works. but you are just jumping to conclutions. Nothing strange happened here. They chose used F16s because they fighter pilots love the F16s. And they are maybe getting a deal on their future purchases of F35s with this deal. The F35 is far and away a more advance fighter than the Gripen. Nothing agains the Gripen, but you get what you pay for.

@Leo ni leo

Brazilian haven´t decided yet, and there is still but small chances for Grippen.

F-16 is ,as @americanska said, one of the most popular jets in operation, i can´t see any kind of problem. The Romanian government have chosen the equipment that they believe is ok for theirs expectation.

By the way:

SAAB is a very good car, in the 90´s every american wanted to buy a black cabriolet SAAB. I wish I could buy a brand new SAAB 93 Cabriolet.

americanska..........Its a shame to think that your low tech Gripens have the ability to strike at precision. They are not even comparable with drones with very high tech but still causing massive civilian deaths. "peace", the word peace is relative. Perhaps bring peace in your part of the world which is economically melting down.

i'll take peace over mass slaughering of people based on religion every day.

am economic melt down in the US and Europe is still a hell of a lot better than the..how should i say, the "not western" part of the world.

If you all hate Swedish products so much, why are you in Sweden.

if you hate everything Swedish, you should leave Sweden and go back to your own countries.

The western world (US and Europe) is soon the old world as the balance of power shifts to the Eastern world (China) or the BRICs whether you hate it or not.

Why would I use the energy to hate an inacurate point of view?

One correction, the B from BRIC´s is Brazil and we shift together with Europe and US. China is today everyones trade partner and this doesn´t mean that we cooperate.

P.S: Brazil is a Western world country.(just for the records, hahahah)

Swedes, Please! The Gripen was doomed from the begining. You had pilots punching out over downtown Stockholm and thank goodness he wasn't pointed at the water or it would have crashed into Sergels Torg. As it was, it crashed into the water. When Saab lost the Norwegian contract, everybody was so busy whining they forgot that only the week before there was a Gripen on the front pages with it's nose on the tarmac because of failed landing gear. What about all the groundings recently in the press. Let's conveniently forget about those too huh? Not to mention that it's money that talks and bullshit walks and the F16 has not only bags of money behind it but if it was 20 years old with squeeky brakes, it's still proven a better craft than Saab anything could hope to be.

You seriously need to be schooled to do text analysis.... its very clear Eastern world (China) or the BRICs. meaning Brazil geographically is not put together with China in the Eastern world. For your information as an emerging economy Brazil does not take the same sides with Europe, Check the COP15 Climate change negotiations.

Hey all. why does it matter if Brazil is a Western Country of Developing? Of course they side with the western nations.

@Leo ni leo

It´s impressive your talent to talk about something without any background. The topic here is about Jets and then you came out with the COP15 Climate Change.

I've worked in F16 units for 10 years. They are anything but "junk." Even older models have a higher power to weight ratio than the Gripen, twice the payload with greater interdiction capabilities and are faster than the Gripen for 30%-50% less per unit cost new. It probably has a lower incident rate, even at high OPTEMPO--4.10 x 10-8 per mile. Parts are far more plentiful, and there are more user nations to run exercises and training with.

This article is nothing but sour grapes.

Re Studentecon

I think there are series of steps which Sweden can take. The first step is to seek for arbitration. The second is taking it to court. The lawyers on both sides would argue their case if Sweden's claim is true. That is why Sweden should do its homework before it brings the case to WTO. If Sweden wins it might receive hefty compensation even after the transaction between Romania and US is completed.

Do you guys really believe in the power shifting east or whatever???? they are developing for sure , do you think they will be super power?? did you guys forgot what happend to japan?? it was developing at a faster rate than china. at one point the imperial palace in Tokyo was worth more than all the real estate in California. The basic problem is their economies are dependent on western economies unless they make their own people spend (for which a lot of reform on social security and medical care is reqd, which is either rudimentary or non existant now) there is no way. Basically they as whole countries are employed by the west. Can a employee get richer than the owner?

this article failed to mention that Romania will receive these F16 fighters for FREE !

the Romanian side will have to invest in them to bring them at US/Nato standard and to train the pilots (it will require for the pilots to train 1 year in the USA), and this modernization can be caried in Romania. Then Romania (when will have the money) will be able to buy new planes including F-35 at preferantial prices (5th generation planes). If Romania buys Gripen (4.5 gen fighters), then it will have to use them until around 2030 and all the countries will have 5th gen fighters... I guess this is also a strategic decision.

"European defense needs procurement, needs to come from within the EU. "

Andrea, that is the type of mentality that is causing EADS to miss out on the tanker contract.

wow someo of the people on here "audrian" really think that they the country of sweden should be compenstated because SAAB lost out on a contract? the sense of entitlement in this part of the world - puke

"We are surprised at the statement indicating that the Supreme Defence Council is pursuing the old F-16s..."

"Suprised"!. That's why Swedish companies shouldn't be in in the arms business. Who knows what sweeteners were offered to the Romanian decision makers? Certainly not SAAB who are constantly "suprised" in this way, and will remain "suprised" until its airplane is too old to sell to anyone at all. SAAB must either get down and dirty with the Americans and French, or get out. Out is the more realistic option.

"Who knows what sweeteners were offered to the Romanian decision makers? "

The fighters were offered for FREE. What do you want more? The only condition was to modernized them and to train the pilots.

"The sources said the U.S. government is willing to give the fighters for free, while Romania will invest in upgrading them, training the pilots and modernizing the flight strips. The purchase includes auxiliary services, such as pilot training, flight simulators, logistical support, and related equipment".

There is some truth to both sides of the argument listed above. The first consideration of a weapons system is "will it work as needed". the F-16 has proven it is a very versatal fighter/bomber. The next cosideration is cost. My guess is that second hand f-16's are cheaper to buy than new fighters osf any kind. Next you go to maintenance. The F-16 has been around a long time and as such many of the parts are available after market and refurbished; think of the availability of a car part from a 10 year old car vrs a 2 year old car. The newer cars' parts are generally dealer only at a high cost. The older cars' parts can be found refurbished to new condition from a long list of refurbishers. Then you must consider who your friends are and what they will bring to the party. The US still uses the F-16 in a reserve role and as such should the need arise they could get the parts to Rumania quickly and probaly either free or on a "pay me later" basis and bring them with them when they come to Rumania's defense. When was the last tine Saab or Sweden acted in this manner? When all these things are considered it is no wonder that the rumanians chose used F-16's over new saabs. To do otherwise would have been illogical. As for the WTO, they are only of use in disputes where unfair trade policies are in play, say when a country uses illegal tariffs or other trade barriers and or bribes. (Just a hint, In the US bribes by companies which occur outside the US are illegal and routinely prosecuted in US courts). These are just some of the issues which are considered in an international arms deal. The article simplifies it tremendously. Last and not least whining and using political pressure after the fact will only make it less likely that your weapons systems will be chosen in the future. Egging your nieghbors house will make it much less likely you will be invited to the aprty next time.

"Reserve role"? The F16 is still the frontline fighter as the transition to F22 and F35 takes place over several years. It'll still be fielded a decade from now, possibly two.

It's all about politics!! I am romanian and I worked for almost one year as a PR for a government representative (deputy) and i know that they (politicians) will sell their souls to get money, money, money!! Romanian politics is a killer with cold blooded hands... Since the ancient times we've been ass-kissers so, unfortunately, this became kind of a custom for our nation, now to kiss the big fat american asses. In my country it is said that ''Romania is a beautiful country with astonishing landscapes. Too bad it's populated'' and so i left my country and i came to Sweden..I hope i won't find here the same level of corruption and crimes that dominate my country.

Tadei

Anyone who thinks Romania got those fighters for free is a fool.

@MichaelZWilliamson:

you said it very right.

the Falcon is cheaper and offers more preformance for the money in both roles (fighter, fighter/bomber). also, with the chance to buf the F-35 later, its clear why romania prefers the Falcon over the gripen.

you USA haters can go home. try to sell your fighters to north korea or cuba.

The Grippen has been in trouble since day one. Maybe the F16 is just better. Maybe there is nothing pro-USA or anti-Sweden here, maybe its just economics.

Glad to see so many people identifying the anti-America bias. There is too much of that here. The US and Sweden are good friends. I wish the bloggers here would follow suit.

When considering a weapons system you have to consider who you would be defending against. If Putin's Russia or Turkey decides to re-assert itself, who does the first phone call go to???? Sweden???? France (stop laughing)??? The EU????

What nation could a small Democracy call?????

OK, so the US Marines are on the way(again) and phones are ringing off the hook ordering everything you need to fight a war from Coca-cola to M&Ms to that new thing that goes boom from Raytheon.

Oh but that new thing from Raytheon is designed to work on US Aircraft. Sorry, your planes can't play. Your stuck with what's on the open market. The good stuff, the US doesn't even admit they have it, until it pops up in a news report or comes flying down the ventilation shaft of your enemy.

In Air Superiority you fly US or second best. Second best is what defended Berlin in 1945 from the daylight bombings, or kept Hiroshima feeling safe or provided the Arab armies air cover against those US built birds the Israeli's were flying. It also gave Sadam's jet jocks a lot of night-mares despite the latest Russian models in the Gulf War.

I find the reasoning with F-35 fighter strange. Well, miracles happen, but playing with the thoughts of 24 F-35 fighters when the country has everyday economical problems in the middle of a global downturn - had so for the past 20 free years - and has long due problems even with changing the waaaay outdated MIG 21's, it at least sounds exceptionally optimistic approach.

Except if they are aiming at the F-35's at the time it is scheduled for withdrawal from service. Just like the F-16's are now.

Miracles happen, a country escaped communist block 20 years ago is still lagging behind and filled with corruption could fly ahead in the coming years so can afford the most advanced US equipment for real price, but it is highly unlikely. Sounds like Greece is planing to give aid for Germany.

They just say big which is nothing. I would believe it is more like a desperate attempt, a bullshit to explain the purchase for the public. I heard such silly explanations earlier in the ex-communist block, used to cover something.

11:04 March 26, 2010 by bubbagump

I might be mistaken, but as far as I know Romania is part of the NATO, and there is no such conditions in the membership to buy from the US only to enjoy mutual help benefits of the members, all members are obliged to help each other on external aggression. Equipment only have to be compatible with the system of other NATO members for successful cooperation, not have to be US made. US is obliged to help all those members, not only those with trading fighters with. However agree, US might be less enthusiastic in case being disappointed because of earlier trading decision, but would help anyway. Has to.

Generally everything is back to money. What the country can afford. Optimizing strategy means trying to get the most out of the available money over a certain period, find mutual benefits, sharing costs for common goals (like safety) on affordable level. Immediate costs and side benefits - which may make more money to spend later, either on defense or else, which also might end up in more spending on defense - are part of the conditions, very important and more clear conditions than future, hypothetic conditions.

It was a strategic decision.

Romania fought in all major wars in Europe, WW I, WW II, Moldova s war in 90s was at our borders, Yugoslavia's war was too at our borders.

Hungaria tried to start a yugoslavian style war in Romania in 90s, in

Transilvania province.

Bulgaria wants too a piece of Romania, called Dobrogea, just as Ukraine does, but for a different reason this time, Ukraina wants Dobrogea for a piece of Black Sea oil fields. Without it, Ukraine is left without oil, and must buy from...guess who???

When was the war last time in Sweden?

If you know nothing about my country, how can you comment so easy???

Just one question: how many enemy plane were ever put down by any Saab jet fighter???

Of course those planes are not for free, but the whole package is priceless for Romania.

@Subzero- The US is a member of NATO, but as the US has recently been taught by certain NATO countries in Afganistan coming to your assistance under this treaty might mean sending some police trainers or setting up rule of engaement so rediculous that you never leave your base in war time.

Again if Romania is attacked the major responding power to defend her and the other small Democracies is and will be the US. The planes, support equipment and tools we will bring to the fight will be designed for US planes. The ground crews and Officers we will throw into the fight will be trained to work on US Planes. The training the Romanian Air Force will get in Nevada is the most advanced in the world, bar none.

The US Airplanes are designed with re-furbishmet and up-grading in mind, so that they will remain state of the Art. Look at the German Luftwaffe, which was able due to re-furbishment to continue using it's F-104 Starfighters and F-4 Phantoms into the 1990s, due too constant product improvement. The F-16 is one of the greatest all around fighters ever (has another jet ever shot one down?) and will be in the arsenal of the world's democracies for a very long time. Romania has made a bold statement that it intends to stand with the forces of Freedom if conflict comes and should be saluted for her actions.

US Fighter Jets are superior in terms of effectivess and manover the only constraint in some cases refers to the embeded technology, otherwise is always the best choice. Glad to hear that european countries are now open their minds outside the box (EADS, DASSAULT, SAAB).

@Nemisis

I like Swedish glass just fine. Love the taste of Swedish Elk (Moose), Swedish phones aren't half bad. But went it comes to protecting my hide, I would go with American technology every time.

take a chance to google both fighters and actually look what they each can do..compare them...

i think a 20 year old ferrari is still better then a brand new out of the factory honda civic that may or not work..who cares if your even getting it for free... guys seriously... if you had the money to spare what would you rather do? pay for the ferrari or go with the civic for free? just asking..

wasnt it the gripen that was ejecting pilots for no reason. Yeap now there is a superior product. LOL swedish JUNK.

@#48- How about a nice ABBA Take a Chance on Love video with the Grippen in the back ground sent o the Brazilian TV stations. Don't hesitate you won't have the US to compete with, since we can't stand Brazil's President (marxist flake). It's Sweden and France, so good luck Sweden!

F-16 SURE stands above any other jet but then it's second-hand for heaven sake and considering they're most probably not gonna used in any battle it's all the maintenance expenses that the buyer has to pay which is obviously higher for a second hand. The end

Take Romania to Court for their decision ? Did you gone mad?

They can buy from anybody they want ,regardless of the price.I,m romanian and I DONT care about having european made jets in our fleet.West European goverments were alway weak and their alliances and security promises worth nothing.Without US pressure, Romania and Bulgaria would have never be accepted in European structures due to oposition of "friendly" countries from western europe wich now want to sell weapons to us.Tough luck buds! We dont want a minuscule swedish fighter even on that F18 based engine.ok ?

@ Argentina slamed Britain with their airforce (They lost the war on land) because of the courage of your pilots and innovative moves made by their ingeneers during the 1982 war. They were using really old French planes. So you never know.

Anyhow, the poin here is that Romania buys a fighter meanwhile their people go around the EU playing instruments and begging in the subways. When are we going to understand, as humans, that war is not the way out of conflicts?

They should be investing in their people to take their country out of the shadows.

'M..Williamson' and 'wenddiver' pretty much have all their facts straight. The F-16 has proven itself since it's first intoduction in the late 70's in the USAF. And it is still widely being used in Iraq and Afganistan.

glamelixir & subzero

There are natives beggers in USA and EU so your point out of line and lame, big time.Lots of countries even in EU should never got an Air Force in the first place,like Swiss,Greece,Belgium,Holland,Hungary,Danemark,Finland,Austria,

..those are tinny countrie at best half size of Romania..not to mention the old aeronautic tradion of Romania from the beginning of the 20th century.Italy got the very old F-16A,s to bridge the gap until the Eurofighters gets up to the numbers and nobody freeked out like in this case.Romania will bounce back economic,no doubt there, meanwhile 50 F16 will keep the tradion going,keep some pilots up in the sky and do the job.European powers never could provide any security to allies ,not to themself.Without US muscle it would never existed this democratic prosperous Western Europe,with such a big mouth but spineless like always.

I wish I could comment here, but yago9 is so right on that there is nothing left to say. It fills me with joy to see your love for your country and its defense and I am proud to be on your side. You show wisdom in supporting the use of the best military equipment to defend your country. You have allies in the US and in the EU. Long live freedom (even if it is fading in the west). UH RA!

Thx my friend , I kinda got upset by the vicious reaction of some people here over the decision of an independent nation to purchase something.Did Sweeden bought someting from Romania

worth billions lately ? Don,t think so.But Volvo and IKEA it,s doing just fine in Romania so you will be ok.

Yes,i forgot few others nations with way smaller population and having Air Forces.Like Sweeden,Norway and Portugal. Do really need an Air Force more than Romania ?

Sure I,m glad romanians went for a logic strategy and political decision in this matter of national security.I think joining Eu was a big mistake for

Romania.That country was able to make everything ,from heavy ships ,aircrafts,trucks,car,trains,clothes,steel,chemicals to sawing needles..Did EU allowed that ?

God no,they hated competition so they helped ruined everything and made us a nation of dependable consumers as a condition for joining.Millions of people out of

jobs because of this ,wich now are trying to make a living elsewhere,so put put the blame on your goverments too when you see a romanian singing into your subway

station.Ok,i,m done now,truth had to be told though.Cheers!

I love all the talk on here about the EU needs to buy from within the EU. Freemarkets and global economy talk flies out the window when the story strikes closer to home. Anyone remember the Steuben Glass-Orrefors Hillary Clinton story from a couple of weeks ago? Americans were just cry babies and protectionist then, but now the shoe is on the other foot. Seems a bit hypocritical.