May 26, 2012
Published: 15 Apr 10 11:23 CET | Double click on a word to get a translation
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/26090/20100415/
A school in Karesuando in northern Sweden has been criticised by the National Agency for Education (Skolverket) for holding prayer and psalm readings during classes after children from a conservative Lutheran offshoot joined the school.
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If you are unable to know what is ethical and moral without religion, you are clearly a lost cause and a person lacking common sense.
Christianity alone has nothing to do in schools. Want to learn about Christianity? Go to church on Sunday. Learn about religion at school? Only from a historical viewpoint, and that you include all mythologies.
See this link for facts on what happens when religeous people are allowed in Schools.
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/
The complaint came about as a result of a school child telling school inspectors during a routine inspection that he was excluded because of these prayer lessons.
Most religious communities hold their youth groups after school so I cannot see why prayer meetings needed to be held in school time.
It sounds as though there are problems at this school as it has been criticised 3 times in the last 18 months by the school inspectors
Damned (excuse the pun) right. Religion MUST be separated from the state, the legislature and education. The place for religious education is in the home, and it should used to indoctrinate and terrify school children with archaic and irrelevant themes of heaven and hell. Sweden is - quite rightly - a secular nation and should strive to uphold secularity in all public spheres of life. I do not want to live, nor do I want my children to live in a society where they are exposed to the irrational rantings of conservative bible bashing christians or fundamentalist Wahabbi muslims.
1-0 to the Swedish state on this one.
There might be some order to the universe. I cannot dispute that. I do not know the nature of this order but I can tell you one thing for sure. Virgins do not give birth, one cannot teleport from Mecca to Jerusalem on a magic carpet and there are no such thing as chosen people or promised land.
I partially agree with you.
However, I believe that Religion should NOT be taught in schools nor home. Whoever wants to learn it, s/he may go to the library and read books about it or go to Churches, Temples or Mosques.
Also, since The-Local already predicates that "Swedish population to top 10 million in 2021", who knows...maybe Muslims constitute 20% of the population. Then, teaching Christianity in schools will open the door for other people to argue and request that they should teach Judaism, Buddhism, Islam (Sharia)...etc and I guess if Sweden said 'NO' , then, we will be criticized so badly by the international community and will be compared to Saudi Arabia.
I wonder when people will ever learn what is the meaning of 'Freedom'...
@Kevin Harris #13
"Religion (any religion) offers good guidance about how to behave in certain situations."
Obviously, you are mixing up "Good Morals/Manners" with "Religion".
- A human being DOESN"T need to be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Jew to help out a blind man to cross the street.
- A human being DOESN"T need to be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Jew to donate money for poor people in Haiti.
- A human being DOESN"T need to be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Jew to condem Israel's actions which cause death for many children in Gaza.
No, I didn't mix them up. Ironically, you did.
Sadly (and obviously) telling school children stories from different religions is not a panacea for blindness, poverty in Haiti, or the suffering of Palestinian children. But it must be better than delegating our childrens' moral development to Hulk Hogan and the Osbournes.
Religion is the greatest perpetrator of evil ever!!!
RELIGION AND STATE SEPERATE EVEN THE USA HAS IT IN THEIR CONSTITUTION (Alot of people seem to forget this very clear fact)
Religion poisons the mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christianity is Ridiculous!!!
Oh! What if you are Wrong and there is a GOD.....
Good Luck!!!!!
We, Christians, believe this world is coming from Logos, Reason and Love.
Atheist believe they are coming from monkeys.
We, Christians believe we are made by God.
We, Christians, use water and soap daily...
I am an atheist and even if my mum believes there might be some God up there she is not what you would call a Christian, so my upbringing was fairly secular and I was given the wonderful opportunity to decide for myself what I trust to be true.
I trust facts and what can be proven with science.
With that said, I am confident that if you ask my family, my wife and my friends that my ethics and morals are very strong. So how can you explain that?
Teaching ethics and morals through religion tends to be a 'do as I say, not as I do' ideology. If you exclude religion from the teaching of ethics and morals, what you got left then is social norms, cultural heritage and the best of all, common sense. Because you can not teach people ethics and morals by saying that you have to behave like this because I say so, you have to explain why you should behave in a certain way and educate people how that benefits you and the society around you.
I am sorry, but it saddens me that you think you can only learn ethics and morals from religion. Must be difficult to live in world bound with so manyy limitiations.
If you are an aetheist, why should you care if someone else prays. Their behavior does not directly affect you. By definition you should not care one way or the other. I would suspect that noone has ever been "injured" by "Second Hand Prayer".
The "core of common law" was derived from the Ten Commandments. The whole idea of "Seperation of State and Religion" was to allow people to pray without fear of persecution and prosecution, from a "Tyrannical State".
The intent was never to stop people from praying, quite to the contrary, it gave people the right to pray. Faith is the destination, religion, only the road.
always surprises me atheists with morals (even they are Christian)
only Christianity (real variant not catholic variants) teaches freedom and proper morals and yes most nice country's have Christian morals so much so that the rest of the world wants to move in with us and enjoy our Christian goodness and righteousness but not actually subscribe themselves,(and they are free to do this) they give us the sharp end of the tongue and mistreat our systems and thereby us and because we have Christian morals we don't do nasty things them, like if we were of eastern or Islamic morals! Thank God for Christians and Christian countries, when they are gone where the hell will you go to live then? (Pun not intended) think it out as the world is going there as far as I can see!!
Gods says you are free to be evil or good!
As long as there are "Tests in Schools", there will be "Prayer in Schools". That Said...
If you are an aetheist, why should you care if someone else prays. Their behavior does not directly affect you. By definition you should not care one way or the other. I would suspect that noone has ever been "injured" by "Second Hand Prayer".
The "core of common law" was derived from the Ten Commandments. The whole idea of "Seperation of State and Religion" was to allow people to pray without fear of persecution and prosecution, from a "Tyrannical State".
The intent was never to stop people from praying, quite to the contrary, it gave people the right to pray. Faith is the destination, religion, only the road.
As said by some the idea that a child is born into a religion and does not have a choice in what to believe because his/her parents are of that religion is manipulation on its lowest level.
The reason people don't want children praying is because that it is a travesty that these children are giving up their childhood through no choice of their own to follow one belief that stops their ability to develop.
Intelligent Design is the single most idiotic explaination for anything ever. Religion is an unecessary evil and its been shown over and over again how hypocritical followers are and the people who claim to represent the voice of a supreme being and also the most ridiculous of people the ones who spread the nonsense through the guise of being priests and what have you.
Grow up there are things you don't understand explaining it as "gods will" bla bla bla is ridiculous.
@PonceDeLeon - you are correct in that an atheist does not care if someone prays in the privacy of their home or a place of worship. However, it is a different situation if you, as someone from a different religious persuasion, are forced to be in an environment where you are exposed to someone else's prayer readings. I have personal experience of being an atheist in a work environment where key personnel would meet every morning to have prayer sessions at work. In addition I also had people at work proselytising and preaching to me about christianity. This violates my individual rights to have my own beliefs.
Frankly I don't care of someone wants to worship baal whilst chanting "kumbaya my lord" with a carrot stuck up their backside...as long as they don't do it in front of me or expect me to join in. That is WHY we have "places of worship" - so people can do their little religious rituals together in privacy and we don't have to see them.
Bilingual Muslim children need to learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.
There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my iopinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools.
Iftikhar Ahmad
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
The history of religions is drenched in blood and hypocrisy. It is better to keep them out of state affairs because nothing good would come if churches reclaim the state. It took Europe hundreds of years of violent struggle to remove religion out of the affairs of the state. In Saudi Arabia prayers are mandatory. At the time of prayers, which is announced through the loud speaker, people are required to stop what ever they are doing and begin praying. Otherwise monitors would flog them. In Isreal it is religion that is messing up its politics and made it violent. What happened in Northern Sweden it is the beginning of this invasion.
That said, there is a distinct difference between studying religion as part of a public school sponsored school curriculum - and expecting people to participate in a choice of religion not necessarily their own.
No one religion should be favored over another in a public school system. Public schools should not be allowed to teach religion or proselytize, but they should teach about religion. They should teach subjects like the history of religion, the role of religion throughout history, etc..
Religious freedom should be a fundamental human right (but this obviously not agreed by all people or all religions). Still in our society, parents have the right to disagree with this on the basis of their beliefs, cultural differences, or individual preference. If so, then there are a myriad of private schools to which to send their children. A "state funded private school" is oxymoronic, but maybe one exists somewhere.
.
"More people have died for the sake of really stupid clashes between religions or because of genocide from religious persecution than any other cause except for natural death."
is a great case in point.
What was Ghengis Khan's religious agenda? Millions died at the hands of the Horde, so please, tell me what doctrine they were trying to impart to the peoples of Asia and Europe. How about Atilla the Hun? And what of the Romans? The Romans never promoted their religion outside of their people -- thier bloody conquests were motivated by greed.
So let''s see -- Napoleon's conquests? The US Civil War? The Russian war between the Bolsheviks and the White Russians? WW1? WW2? Stalin's genocide of Russians, ethnic minorities and the Ukrainian holocaust of the early 1930s? Come on now, let's compare the casualties with your alleged wars of religion.
Hmm... nice idea. Why don't you do that in a muslim country? Why in Europe????
Can we go and do the same in muslim country?
1) God does or does not exist and we as people should or should not follow certain criteria to better our lives.
2) An established church is or is not beneficial to the people.
First we have to decide if God exists. If he does not, then obviously, any church established is not "necessary" but does that mean it can not prove to be "useful" to people in living and directing their lives and giving comfort to them with fears and worries. People study this.
If he does exist. Then the question of allowing people to figure him out and find out his nature and understand their own nature should be just as obvious.
Isn't this the essence of education? Learning about the past? The present? What is? What will be? Doesn't religion fit into this? Can the Chemist live in harmony with the Physicist as they are basing their studies off of different theories and proofs, hypothesis and lab experiments. Do they know everything in their field? Surely not. Will they disagree with each other? Most likely. Even within the same field of study do they disagree. Are they constantly learning new things. You bet!
Why not religion? Isn't it the search for how we became from one "theory?" Isn't it trying to answer who we can become? Why shouldn't it be studied in school? Why can't it be practiced in the lab? If there is truth in religion, will it be beneficial to us? Just like any knowledge, it depends on the owner.
The real question is how do we respect each other when our "theories" or "advanced researched proofs" put us on a different level of understanding or desire from the other. How do we allow the other person their freedom to act, study and live without disabling our own way of life?
Anyone who disregards these statements is a hypocrite and is not looking out for the advancement of humankind but are succoming to the uneducated standard of ignoring what one can't comprehend instead of researching it. Worse, by condemning others to explore and learn for themselves, they become a fascist and an extremist exalting themselves and their understanding of all things above all others.
I have no respect for those people!
However, when I wrote the comment yesterday, I was beyond only the "mere" WARS fought in the name of one religion or the other. In my comment, I was thinking about all clashes, big or small, of all sorts where religion was(is) the key determinant. I think the term is "religious homicide" which happens on group on group clashes and or pogroms which result in loss of life due to religion or the practice of religious rites (e.g., human sacrifice, the search for infidels, inquisitions, witchcraft, wanton killings because of a pig or a hair, jihads, Salman Rushdie, Waco, Jonestown, to mention a fraction of the list).
Added all together is is true that more people have died in the name of religion than for any other singular reason? How about you do the math and come back with an answer.
Here, I make it simple for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
Before you cherry pick your facts, see to it that no one finds the cherries you threw away.
Enjoy!
Second, the Spanish Inquisition (and other in Europe, not just Spain's) was a very bad thing for those peopple it decided were culpable. However, the estimate is that there wwere less than 100,000 'heretics' so disposed of. They do not come anywhere close to any of the non-religious mass killers of human history, especially those following the Stalin-Max-Trotsky branch.
@Audrian - all churches don't despise others. Islam is the one that currently hates all others. As history has sowed, when Islam takes over you have three choices: Convert, subjugate youself to serf staus, or die. The hate fired by primarily religious reasons in Christianity died out (pardon pun) several centuries ago. This isn't the 15th century,except in Islam, when it's still the 8th century.
The Taiping Rebellion in China during the mid-1800's claimed lives of upwards of 50 million people (if the numbers at the upper calculated limits are to be believed).