Christian paper rejects LGBT youth camp ad

Those homoactivists have clue: first they throw darts to Popes picture at their shameful pride parade, and then demand an ad on a front page of christian newspaper.

Can it be less consistant?

The consistent thing about activists is that they always demand that other party forfeit their values in order to accomodate the activist's intransigence. It's absurd.

Grippen, the camp is run by Christians. They are not "homoactivists" in the sense that you mean. It is completely consistent for a Christian group to post an ad in a Christian newspaper.

@Roy E

You are absolutely correct. This is just plain provocation.

I can imagine what a Christian Summer Camp for LGBT entails. One form of perversion after the other.

I wonder if they would accept an ad from a seafood wholesaler. After all, the consumption of shellfish is just as much an abomination to god as is homosexuality.

I know I would be outraged at a shrimp or lobster ad in my local newspaper. Such an ad would offend me greatly, and I have the god-given right to not be offended.

Good for the free churches! The Church of Sweden has forgotten that there is a difference between loving the sinner and accepting that sinner's lifestyle.

This is so sad. I naively thought a progressive country like Sweden wouldn't still have this kind of homophobia.

this is no news.

"And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

Would the Church of Sweden ban an advert from a group of Black Swedish Christians organising a Summer Camp?

Of course, besides shellfish and homosexuality, the church needs to be careful about people swearing at their parents:

Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

And God really hates handicapped people. They aren't allowed to approach a church. I don't suppose that the Church of Sweden would allow ads for handicapped camp:

Leviticus:

21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,

21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,

21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones* broken;

(Stones broken refers to testicles)

Christian camp, christian paper... I thought that would be all that mattered.

Good. The LBGT should be allowed to have their opinions, as should the Christians. Glad they both have a voice. Shame on any of you who would silence either of them.

Its interesting that demonetization was used by the Christians to put the public in fear in the middle ages, not it is used to put the Christians in fear in the modern age.

Let freedom of thought and speech prevail, even if you don't agree with it..

Any newspaper has the right to accept or decline advertisers. End of story.

I would not expect to see ads for condoms on children's programs Not that there is anything wrong with condoms...it just wouldn't be the right venue.

The christian newspaper claimed that their targeted audience would be offended by the advert. Secondly, the advert or pratice of the people advertising is against the value of the newspaper. To those quoting the bible wrongly, sin is always a sin. those cultures are Mosaic rules that the same christianity eradicated under Jesus. Paul (meaning short and not even real name), the greatest apostle ever was short and bald headed. An homosexual is welcome in real biblical church but fornication will never be welcomed.

" 05:03 June 12, 2010 by Tutu

The christian newspaper claimed that their targeted audience would be offended by the advert. Secondly, the advert or pratice of the people advertising is against the value of the newspaper. To those quoting the bible wrongly, sin is always a sin. those cultures are Mosaic rules that the same christianity eradicated under Jesus. Paul (meaning short and not even real name), the greatest apostle ever was short and bald headed. An homosexual is welcome in real biblical church but fornication will never be welcomed. "

If we start living and basing our standards on "biblical church", then we would be banning women from speaking in front of an audience in church and throwing stones at "witches". The fundamentalists then would be demanding that Sundays made sacrosanct and banning all physical work during this day. Next thing we know Sweden has become a second Iraq where religious fanatics rule over people's lives and depriving them of freedom.

These camps are important in that they educate young gay people the "traditional" value of monogamy, commitment, self identity, and loyalty in relationships self as opposed to promiscuity and the risk of STDs. If these free churches think of themselves as truly compassionate "Christians", they should have acted otherwise.

@tree88. i dont know which bible u read. i am sure it is not the christian one. the bible does not support banning women from preaching though swedish church does. Or promote throwing stones at witches. Jesus delivered withches and not stone them. Mary Magdalene was possed by 7 demons and she is highest apostle ever. christianity preaches abstinence to youth and not fornication.

that is why our community is in a rot. what more education do we want to give on fornication. our tv, advert, soap opera and films have done enough. chrisian camps is for teaching christian values and morals.

Grouping people together by sexual orientation seems to be a recipe for a camp of debauchery, not something that a christian organization would want to associate itself with. It'd be kind of like organizing a camp for people who were into bondage under the guise of christian education. Sure, some might show up in latex and learn the gospel, but I can't see the rest going according to plan.

Purely on a language point, what does "queer" mean? (If not gay, lesbian or homosexual.) This word is no longer used in the UK, having been replaced by gay. In fact, the word has become somewhat derogatory, and your paper needs to be careful with its rather naive and antiquated use of English.

You should get some staff who have current knowledge of the language, not people for whom English is a second language or who have been living in Sweden so long they are out of touch.

@Tutu:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

And as far as your "fornication" is concerned, that was quite endorsed by your god of the bible, especially if you capture a woman during battle:

Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (As seen in many more verses).

If you believe that your community is in trouble due to fornication and other such evils, I suggest staying away from the Bible as your moral guideline.

Valdemaratterdag.

Congrats, you've done a fine job proving that you are a self-righteous simpleton, very self-satisfied with your extremely shallow comprehension and lack of intellectual honesty. I don't know where that's a going to get you in life, but hey, to each his own.

Why do gay's always have to have their own events? Gay parade, gay bar, gay camp etc - there would be hell to pay if straight people demanded Straight parade, straight bar, straight camp etc - I've got nothing against gay's but why can't they just attend the same things everyone else does - why do they have to be different?

Valdemaratterdag, nice post, really showed them the flaws in hiding behind the bible.

Roy E, rather pathetic how you attack Valdemaratterdag personally rather than attacking his argument. I guess that will get you far in life also.

So lets review the argument, dont let gays get together, otherwise its a sex fest where no one learns anything about the bible. And keep the christian camps traditional, plenty of sexually frustrated adults combined with a load of impressionable kids.... just the way the pope likes it.

@Royce,

Thanks, it's easy to point out the flaws in the arguments of christians.

@RoyE,

You want to know where it gets me in life? Well, a lot further than cowards and bullies like you who pick on people because they're different. You call me self-righteous and simple, but I have more righteousness in my pinky finger than a bully like you has in his whole body.

You also say I'm self-satisfied; however, I take little satisfaction in living in a world where the megalomaniacal, egomaniacs rely on the bible or the koran for their moral compass. As far as honesty is concerned, there is no one as disingenuous or dishonest as one who blindly follows the evil book called the bible.

You sound a bit paranoid, Valdemaratterdag.

What ever happened to 'Live and let live' ? Try it. You never know, you just might like it.

Hmm.. this is why I hate organised religion, it brings out the zealots.

Look, I am a Christian, a follower of Christ and seeing as we seem to be getting into theological arguments here regarding Mosaic law versus Christian law etcetera let it be understood, Christ never once mentions homosexuality (according to his apostles) in any of the Gospels. The only mention of homosexuality in the new testament are a couple of letters from St. Paul, who I don't believe ever met Jesus Christ.

Personally I think St. Paul was a bigoted idiot who would have done better avoiding the road to Damascus, but still most Lutherans hold him in high esteem.

So let it be clear, if we are looking from a purely CHRISTIAN viewpoint here, the Dagen should hold fast to its Christian roots and "Love thy neighbour" regardless of colour, creed or sexual predetermination and leave all of that Sodom and Gomorrah nonsense to any fool that believes in that non nonsensical claptrap.

Oh and just a quick note on the subject of Sodom and Gomorrah.. Lot's wife glances over her shoulder and is turned into a pillar of salt, whilst later that night, Lot, drunk as a lord sleeps with his daughters and begats a nation - if we took our moral code entirely from the Bible that would seem to make both Pedophilia and incest fairly legitimate if not reward-able so we really should be dreadfully careful when hiding behind the Bible to rationalise our natural bigotry.

Paul met Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, the resurrected Christ. He spoke to Paul directly, the topic was not about homosexuality for sure, but they did speak to each other.

Loving thy neighbors doesn't mean support everything your next door does. in fact, parents discipline their kids out of love.

Jesus readdressed that God created Adam and Eve, and they shall become one flesh. He also mentioned Sodom (Matthew 10:11-15).

What Lot did was not endorsed or blessed in any sense in the Bible.

Roy E,

"Live and let live?" I'm sure you regretted that statement the second you posted it. Ah, what delicious irony to have someone who defends the Christian church -- whose track record regarding human rights is nothing short of criminal -- asking someone else to "live and let live." The cult of christianity has existed for two thousand years, invulnerable to the voices of reason, logic, or human decency, and Christians on this thread have the nerve to ask others to change the basic nature they were born with because said christians may have their "values" insulted, a value system that I have pointed out repeatedly here to be flawed, self-contradictory, inhumane, and cruel.

"Live and let live," indeed. Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

@ Samwise,

Yes I take your point, Paul met the resurrected Christ on the way to Damascus and they has a nice wee chat, however the passage (Matthew:11-15) that you site here, is tenuous at best and flippant at worst with regard to this discussion!

I'm a student of language, and have been for many years. I know first hand how difficult it is to translate a passage from one language to another. The Bible has been translated through Aramaic, into Hebrew, through Greek, and then Latin, and then finally into the Modern languages whilst for almost half it's history it was handed down through word of mouth.

Study the story of Sodom and Gomorrah from the Jewish Torah, which is the closest thing we have to the original Aramaic and written before the story was tampered with by the Politically minded Romans and translated beyond recognition. You will find, I believe, that it is a story about hospitality and not actually about debauchery.

There is an inherent difference between the values of the world and those of the church, otherwise there would be no discussion about this, the hypocrisy brewing with the RC priest scandal, or any number of other topics. The message in the bible and the gospel have always run contrary to world values in spite of, or more likely enhanced by, any state endorsement. Of course LGBT values run contrary to biblical teaching. You can be angry or upset about it, but the belief ceases to have integrity. My understanding of what a christian should be is a turning from the flesh and a turn toward trusting God even when it doesn't make sense. This will always be out of step with normal world values.

My husband was told he was getting a promotion at larger corporation in Stockholm on a certain date. Meanwhile, at an after work event, he was heard to say that he thought that sovereign countries outside Sweden are entitiled to make their own laws regarding foreign adoptions and gays. That is it, he supported the rule of law. He was later denied the promotion, and became a social outcast at work, that same year he saved the company 30 million kronor a month with an innovation.

Now if that is not oppressive political correctness, I do not know what is.

Christian "values?"

Are they the same "values" that has the US at war with Iraq and Afghanistan for close to a decade?

Values? What values does anyone have whose only purpose is to kill others in wars? The Germans were Christians, as were the Americans, British, French, Dutch, Norwegians, Finns, et al. The Russians have their own form of Christianity, yet all of them were killing one another by the hundred of thousands in WWII .

The Irish have had a ghastly war between Christians of the same country!

What am I missing here?

@ alingsaskev

You make some really interesting points.

Since you have been a student of language maybe you can answer this; I have always wondered since the Bibe has been translated in many languages and the first written translation started from word of mouth, how much text, or nuance has been lost in translation? As a child, I would always ask our local pastor (and even a priest from the local parish) and they would just blink and never answer. I often wonder how many wars and general unrest have started because of misinterpretation.

@ Sweetblue

Thanks,

The truth is nobody really knows. Most orthodox Christian theologians and Orthodox Jews for example believe that the hand of God has a direct part to play in all writings of the religious texts, but sadly man is terribly fallible when translating. Nuance and meaning are always lost when translating through cultures and languages, try translating the word "Lagom" into English for example.

However as we are in Sweden which is a Lutheran nation, Lutherans believe that the Current Lutheran Old and New Testaments are the "sola Scriptura" or true word of God and way to salvation. The problem with this argument is that much of the modern Lutheran text as we know it was decided upon in Rome at a meeting of theologians in the 5th Century and later adapted by Martin Luther.

Regardless of this there are many Bibles, all of which claim to be the true word of God and all of which are significantly different, which is what causes such animosity between denominations and what fuels arguments on message boards such as this one.

Jesus mentions Sodom in Luke 17:28-30 as well.

He confirms the supernatural stuff recorded in genesis.

I'm no expert with neither the Bible nor languages, but it feels to me that Sodom is used as an example of the judgment.

I admit that His message sounds disturbing to us sometimes.

17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

@Pont-y-garreg

FYI - Queer as a word has made a comeback in recent years on the back of queer theory discussions. It is used as an expression of self-empowerment, in the same way that "nigger" is used by some African-Americans.

Queer is used to describe be people who do not wish to be defined by heteronormative society and refers to a gender, gender identity or sexual orientation - a sort of catch all term.

@DAVID T - while we are on the subject of heteronormative society. You may not have noticed but straight people don't have to demand anything, it is served to them on a plate - on every street, in every bar, in every film, in every book... on every day of the year.

@waffen

The values of the countries you mentioned, though there may be a history or tradition of christianity within its borders, do not reflect or adhere to the tenents of, say, loving your enemy or walking an extra mile, turning your cheek or giving away your cloak, all spoken in Matthew 5 (Sermon on the Mount). We are finite beings and we see what we see right now, and that goes for countries as well.

To believe and follow these "values" is to be at odds with a normal worldview, which is preoccupied with needs or desires here and now. I agree with you that the actions made by these countries do not reflect christian values.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law

14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

I could see the ecstacy of people about this verses of the bible that have been misrepresented. Paul was talking in respect of husband and wife relationship and not men and women in general vs 35. Paul was responding to a letter written to him about wives being rude to their husbands in church or proving to know too much. Paul was affirming that the culture of wives submitting to husbands was applicable in church. It was not a doctrine but he addreressed a specific situation However check out Paul's view on women.

(Galatians 3:28 NIV) There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

(1 Corinthians 11:5 NIV) And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. (WOMEN PROPHESIED IN CHURCH)

Contrary to what we beleive Jesus had female followers Luke 8: 1 - 2,

Act 1: 13 - 15

time would not alow my to talk about Pricilla a Pastor and paul's companion. I will encourage everyone to go and read the bible for themselvevs and not read the part of bible they want to hear.

CHRISTIANITY IS ABOUT FREEDOM AND NOT BONDAGE AND U CAN BE SET FREE TODAY WITH THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE IF YOU WANT JOHN 8:32

Tutu,

You couldn't be more wrong about EVERYTHING you posted. If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person on the planet.

Wow, there really are a lot of illiterate intolerant right-wing religious nut-jobs trolling The Local these days.

@Valdemaratterdag

I appreciate you quoting the bible, it does show you are educated on the matter. However, the vast majority of the passages you quoted are "outdated" in the Christian sense. The new covenant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant and the many actions of Jesus Christ have contradicted many of the Old testament "rules". This can be used as an argument to say that the bible (as one book) contradicts itself. The other viewpoint is that the Christian bible is that of the New Testament and the Old Testament, the latter giving context to the other. I digress.

As for the argument at hand. I am 100% for a LGBT youth camp (Christian or not). Since it seems that the majority of health and sex education is directed at "straight" youth. This will go a long way at educating LGBT youth at making smart decisions regarding their sexuality (e.i. taking precautionary measures) There is also very (very) little outlet for LGBT Christians. It is commonly held that Christianity (or any Abrahamic faith) and LGBT are mutually exclusive. This is a fairly naive way of approaching this situation. The Jesus that I have learned to love does not care about your sexual orientation. However, in today's secular (and free) society, it is up to the organization what they wish to present to the public. If they do not wish to post a LGBT add, then it is their right to do so.

I found many posts here to be insightful about the article. However, many are presenting red herring arguments. If you wish to bash Homosexuality or Christianity, so be it, there are many forums where you can post that will have myriads of people agreeing with you. For the rest of the even keeled people here, keep posting.

I have no comment on this matter again. I agree that I am so wrong and ignorant. The scipture you quoted was so obvious but u decided to believe otherwise. Your view and even of 10 billion like yourself can never change the truth. I rest my case. I am following a bible injunction not to argue with ---------

@Tutu,

Please give me the verses in the bible that say that men shouldn't speak in the church and that they should ask their wives at home because it is a shame for men to speak in the church. Doesn't exist? So much for your bible being about "freedom and not bondage," at least not for women.

@wubba,

I'm not just educated on the bible, I am much more educated than the vast majority of christians, pastors, and priests. It never ceases to amaze me that when I back christians into the corner by quoting horrific verses from the old testament that they quickly disavow that part of their book. Why not canonize it away, as christians did with many parts of the bible in the past? It wouldn't solve many of the ridiculous problems with the new testament, but at least folks like you wouldn't have to keep apologizing for the old testament.

Now, let me tell you why you're wrong regarding your supposed "outdated" old testament. It's really quite simple:

1. According to christians, Jesus = god. And we know that, according to the bible, god is eternal and never changing. God is omniscient, and could well see in advance that he would need to make changes to the old testament before releasing the "final draft." So there can be no changes to the epistemology of the new testament as it relates to the old.

2. Christians themselves will often quote the old testament when they wish to make a "moral" point. The Ten Commandments are a prime example of this. But when other laws or codes of conduct which are astonishingly immoral are pointed out to the christians, the equivocations begin and the "outdated" arguments start. This can be seen just from the posts on THIS THREAD. Christians like to have their cake and eat it, too.

3. None other than Jesus Christ said that the old testament would be valid forever:

Matthew 5:18-19, For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17, It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.

2 Timothy 3:16, All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

In Mark.7:9-13 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law: Whoever curses father or mother shall die.

The posts here conveniently reject homosexuality based on the old testament, but refuse to acknowledge that there are evils that they themselves find abhorrent in the old testament and would not follow. The cognitive dissonance of christians is palpable.

@Valdemaratterdag

Never once did I apologize for the old testament, it is what it is. It is context for the new testament, that contains many stories and lessons. As for your comments, there are well thought out. I respect your many viewpoints, but do have a gripe about one.

Mark.7:9-13

You point this passage out specifically as one that Jesus criticizes the "Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law" While this is true. You play it off as Jesus was encouraging the murder of disobedient children. In this passage you have more similarity with Jesus than you may think. Jesus was pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who were withholding from their parents (thus going against one of their main laws.) Jesus was pointing out that the Pharisees were not "walking the walking" and just "talking the talk".

You may interpret this differently, but this is my viewpoint.

I cannot speak for others, they may hold different viewpoints for different reasons. Keep in mind, however, internet forums are a great way to see the extreme polarity from each side of the argument and that Christians represented here are a minority of all Christians.

In@Valdemaratterdag Mark.7:9-13 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law: Whoever curses father or mother shall die.

PLEASE READ THE SCRIPTURES AND JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES

(Mark 7:9 NIV) And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

(Mark 7:10 NIV) For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'

(Mark 7:11 NIV) But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God),

(Mark 7:12 NIV) then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother.

(Mark 7:13 NIV) Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

OF COURSE THE BIBLE IS AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY BOTH IN OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT BUT JESUS WAS NOT IN SUPPORT OF VIOLENCE BUT WE ARE FREE TO MAKE OUR CHOICES BUT REMEMBER IT'S CONSEQUENCES.

I said would stop but i remember the scriptures that said it is a fool that says that there is no God.