Published: 3 Dec 10 08:06 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/30584/20101203/
Sweden was deceived by both the United States and Norway regarding the latter’s interest in signing a multi-billion kronor deal to buy Sweden's JAS Gripen fighter plane.
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Wikileaks have performed a most valuable task in these revelations showing clearly that it's not always the best product that wins.
The USA has no duty to export the AESA radar system to a Swedish company and may delay it's response to any such request. The American gov't can and should support American companies doing business overseas, including 'political pressure' which isn't a dirty term as the article implied. Norway's decision to buy the latest fighter from a fellow NATO country isn't surprising considering many NATO countries have done likewise. The American decision not to boast prematurely before the deal is finalized is simply smart business, and if they were in a similar situation, I'm sure the Swedish decision would've been the same.
In other words, they do what they always condemn on others.
Best comment
As for which is better there is no consensus on which is best. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses.
Also, when it comes to duplicity the Swedes can't complain. There is quite some evidence of bribery being used to sell the plane to other countries (this was featured in another Uppdrag Granskning episode).
Military sales are a dirty business for everybody concerned : the company, the government of the seller and the goverment .of the buyer
I totally agree with you. Evidence is evidence, it doesn't change. However, it appears the decision to prosecute does change, regardless of evidence or lack of it - "1 Sep 2010 A top Swedish prosecutor decided on Wednesday to reopen a probe into rape suspicions against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange" (quote from this newspaper).
Clearly the decision to reopen the case has no relationship with the recent publications from Wikileaks or the ones in July. (cough!)
Maybe, but then it should stop crying when other countries violate the "free market principles" that apparently aren't so important. For example, a lot of US congressmen are crying about China's currency manipulation, I guess that shouldn't be taken so seriously since it's just China supporting their own businesses.
The best thing about these leaks is that they give a chance for more people to be informed about backroom deals.
You seem to be unhappy that America is behaving in a hypocritical way. Can you name a country which isn't hypocritical and self-serving ? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of such a country. If there is one, it certainly isn't Sweden (despite its "good guy" PR).
Regarding the backroom deals, as mentioned earlier this was all exposed some time ago (eg http://svt.se/2.111325/1.1571663/experter_usa_utpressade_norge_att_kopa_jsf). In fact, given the hype which preceded the leaks, they've actually been a bit of a let-down. So far I've seen nothing which I didn't know or couldn't trivially guess.
If the wikileaks revelations really came as a surprise to you, perhaps its a sign that you should pay a bit more attention to the news.
You should enroll in a reading comprehension course.
Sorry - nothing wrong with my reading comprehension...
Your post focused on America's hypocricy. Specifically you wrote "it should stop crying when other countries violate the "free market principles" that apparently aren't so important.". This is cheap anti-American rhetoric - you're asking for America to stop behaving like any self-interested state i.e. this is utterly imposible. It was pertintent to remind you of this.
Regarding the old news bit, I don't see the point of everyone whinging about this now since its old news and has already been discussed in the media many times. A possibly erroneous assumption was that you didn't know about it. However, if I had to make a guess I'd say I was probably right in my assumption that you didn't know prior to the leak and it was pertinent to point out where more information about the "scandal" could be obtained. If indeed you hadn't seen the program then I at least provided a useful link for you (and anybody else). Instead of whinging about my supposed idiocy (I'll add that to the list of ad hominem comments I've got from erudite local-posters) you should be grateful that I've given more useful source material about this issue.
I didn't say America should stop being self interested. I said they should stop complaining when other countries act in self interest, if they aren't willing to abide by the free market principles that they claim to be in favor of.
Geez is it that hard to read?
A definition of self-interest: "concern for your own interests and welfare". That's precisely what America is doing when complaining about China's currency manipulation.
Perhaps it isn't so appropriate for you to lecture me on reading comprehension. At least I seem to know the definitions of the words I use.
This a quote from a Nomark post to me a couple of days ago. I pulled him up for his hipocracy then. He does have a bit of a track record for this sort of thing I'm afraid.
""Don't twist what I've written here …. stick to what I've written not what you would have liked me to have written."
I stand by everything I've ever written. If anybody wishes to me to clarify anything I've written then fine I'll do so.
Now, you talk of you "pulling me up", which is another distortion. Indeed, I asked you several times to please explain why you labelled me a hypocrite over the issue of me supposedly believing that JA's innocence must be proven. The best you did was cut and paste the end of one sentence and put it together with the beginning of another one - quite a distortion. It is annoying, though not unsurprising, when someone does this. Its even more irritating when they are so smug as to believe they actually made a rational point.
Since you believe "you pulled me up on this" it must be trivial for you to demonstrate that I am indeed a hypocrite. A single quote (though not one which is distorted in the style described above) showing that I think JA's innocence should be proven should do the trick.
Evidence, please - you made the allegation now back it up.
Their oil-production is on decline. They are desperate in finding business in other sectors. Saab was a great chance for them. One of few international-size hi-tech companies with HQ not far from Oslo.
But I guess the fear of the Russians and the US pressure just got too heavy for them...
Saab have business elsewhere and are profitable. Norway needed them more than vice-versa.
You chose to go ad hominem. Please provide the evidence I've requested. I shan't ask again - I've only asked on this thread since you've chosen to slur again. However, I think its extremely weak to jump in on a thread, rubbish someone else and then disappear.
Evidence, please. Where on earth did I write that JA's innocence must be proven ? Another slur was that I have a casual attitude to facts. Please provide one specific example of this ? One could go on...
You like to slur but when you're asked to quantitatively back up what you write, you disappear. This is weak.
I hope he tries to provide the evidence he thinks exists. There is too much speculation and name calling on this forum and not enough scrutiny of facts.
There are, interestingly enough, similarities with a recent exchange I had with you. I asked you on several occasions to provide evidence that myself, the Nine + God knows who else are engaged in a conspiracy against you. You made the accusation of us being conspirators but failed to provide the evidence when requested.
Do not call paranoid just because I know that everyone wants to get to me. ;)
I do not share all the views that Norway had, but I respect self-evident that it is up to the customer to choose the plan that it thought best for their needs."
Sounds like a smart man looking not at the last loss, but laying the ground for the next win.
Regarding the conspiracy that myself, the Nine etc. are allegedly involved in, it is utterly irrelevant if you are increasingly convinced of this.. What is this stuff about the Daily Express and how does it show we are in a conspiracy ? Please supply the evidence.
You made two allegations - please back each of them up with evidence and not speculation. Also, please quit with the ad hominem comments ("you really are a very dirty guy" etc.).
Sell the Gripen to Russia, and form a military alliance with Russia.
Merkel is not happy about the Euro, so who knows what next that Germany might do because they could form a political, economic, expecially for winter fuel oil, and possibly a military alliance as well, with Russia.
Germany has the brains to match and exceed any radar system that the United States can produce, as they have proven again and again with all of their military material.
Now that cheney did not get his war using their lackey, Georgia, the oil routes and their accesses are still in flux, so Putin used his brain, and cheney doesn't have one to use.
Gerhard Schroeder was helping Putin in the Russian oil ministry a few years ago, so who knows where that might yet lead.
Politics and oil make for strange bed-fellows, as the U.S. / Norway deal has shown.
But, comparing the long lineage of the Gripen with proven success and compared with the total failure of ALL previous vertical take-off airplanes, with the sole exception of the British Harrier, the choice was obvious. Even the Harrier would have been a better choice than the F-35 -still is. The Harrier can carry the ASEA radar and long range supersonic anti-aircraft rockets.
Now, that the Netherlands is backing away and the Brits are backing off and USAF is not going to use the Marine version... What do you think Italy will do when the higher prices come out, due to reduced production. Yes, Israel is going to get 20 more but, they are all for free, what does that prove?
Even Hawker/Beechcraft and Boeing are selling competitive old designs of turboprop close support airplanes that are 15 times cheaper. Yes, the F-35 is blind to radar but we all know the Taliban has no radar. And, yes, it is supersonic but the Taliban has no jets. To me, the worse aspect is its vulnerability to a long range rifle shot. All other close support aircraft carry armor, to my knowledge the F-35 does not. Too heavy?
Finally, one last detail, suppose Afghanistan needs close air support aircraft, will USAF let them have the F-35s? No way, we will probably hand over the Boeing OV-10X Bronco, A-10 Thunderbolt II or the OH-64 Attack helicopter (one of them landed on the Afghan mountains and rescued a fighter pilot survivor, impossible for the F-35), oh yes, the rescued pilot rode on the outside wing.
Only the political repercussions of laying off workers keeps the monstrosity of a design in play. It only proves that if you have enough money you can convince a lot of people in a lot of ways of anything. Even medicine, like they did in the US in the mid 1800s, by hucksters.
In American Political terms the F-35 is just a "make-work" project, something the US did in the 1930s, a massive project, the WPA, (Work Project Admin?) that kept millions working for years.
The F-35 is proving much too costly, I will be very much surprised if Secretary of Defense Gates does not cancel this project. Politically speaking, more can be gained than will be lost by redirecting the funds to build High Speed Trains for cargo, like Presidential Candidate Obama promised in his campaign. Well, maybe he did not actually promise, if you know what I mean?
Yes, you are right, but now we know how American's play their games... the next time a Swedish company needs a critical component, it will look somewhere else or start development at home.
Taking two of your points (at random)..
Repeatedly calling someone "sh*t slinger" is ridiculous in my opinion. do you seriously regard me pointing this out as being evidence of a conspiracy ????
Regarding my avoiding the question of "...supposedly believing that JA's innocence must be proven" when RobinHood referred to ..." a quote from a Nomark post to me a couple of days ago." I supposedly begged the question by complaining about his putting two of my sentences together. I complained about a distortion -putting random words together to twist the sentences into a meaning they clearly didn't carry. Do you not think its obvious that if I complain about someone alleging that I don't hold to the principle "innocent until proven guilty"then it implies that this is a principle to which I adhere ? What are you going on about ?
I asked for two pieces of evidence for your allegations that
(1) I am in league with the Nine etc. in a conspiracy against you. The best you can come up with is that I deplore your personal attacks on him and don't think he is lying in one of his posts. How is this evidence of a conspiracy ? This is the normal expression of my point of view on a given topic.
(2) that I "expected him [JA] to prove his innocence". Nowhere have I ever said or implied that. Indeed everything I've written points to the opposite conclusion i.e. that a prosecutor must prove case. The best you can come up with is that I complain vigorously about someone distorting my words.
Please, provide some *evidence* for your assertions.
As for the supporters of WIKILEAKS co-founders guilt or otherwise in alleged serious crimes in Sweden, the fact that the complaintants have not yet disclosed either their identity or the actual criminal act details may seem more than unfair to those who do not understand Swedens legal system?
You assert that RH was correct and that my post contained what he claimed. In that case why don't you just quote it here ? All I've ever asked is that someone reprints the allegedly incriminating quote in full and without removing key words in order to distort the meaning. This illustrates my point about providing evidence instead of opinions. Provide the evidence - cut and paste it, its simple!
Regarding my alleged relationship with the Nine, please provide the evidence. The fact I didn't comment on the fact he attacked you is not evidence. I'm not the site's policeman. Is this really the best you can do in coming with the evidence that I'm in a conspiracy against you ? The alternative hypothesis (which is the reality) is that we both ask the same thing of you i.e. evidence to support your claims and this makes you angry
You've alleged that I have a bias in dealing with matters of evidence. This is surprising since all I've ever asked for is evidence. Give me a specific example where I've shown a bias ? Asking a question about the provenance and reliability of evidence is not showing a bias btw, its simply good practice when dealing with a claim. If the evidence is sound then the person making the claim should be delighted to demonstrate the reliability and robustness of the evidence. If, instead, they just get angry and start name-calling that is revealing in itself.
The simplest and most obvious way to prove me a hypocrite who shows a bias when dealing with evidence is to reprint my quote which allegedly shows that I think JA's innocence must be proven rather than the onus being on the prosecution. So stop the name-calling ("dirty guy"," liar") please and provide the evidence - cut and past the quote. It can be found here: http://www.thelocal.se/30532/20101201/ . What are you waiting for ? This is your golden chance to actually provide unambiguous evidence that I'm a liar. The request also goes out to RH who, like you, has made a number of slurs but curiously has not backed up any of them with evidence.
-HSII
Can you name a single country now or at any time in human history which doesn't act in its own selfish interests and which doesn't practice deceit ?
Your post speaks volumes.......
@Memphis Swede
Sure the Americans were deceitful. So were the Swedes when they used bribes to get rid of some gripen planes and in the events leading up to the Bofors scandal. So, in fact, is every other country when its got something to sell in a competitive environment. To focus on America is plain daft.
Are you really surprised by this ???? You shouldn't be - this particular "scandal" involving Norway's plane purchase is actually very old news.
Individuals can be friends but nations can only look out for the interests of their people. Family before friends.
Look how quickly Spain left Iraq after the train bombings. They still consider the US as their friends, but it more in their interests to capitulate to the demands of the bombers than it was to stick with the US.