New Green Party chiefs bring poll success

The plural of spokesperson is spokespeople, according to BBC.

Voter's survey should be voters' survey as there would surely be more than one voter.

And the plural of democrat is democrats not democrates.

Terrible polling or terrible journalism to leave out a sittting party, the Sweden Democrats, especially one that received a higher percentage of the vote than two of the parties (kd and v) mentioned in this article.

What I dont understand is why everyone is OK with the left wind party when communism killed 10's of millions of people in europe

Hello Rey, I bet you are going to hate yourself for not spelling "wing" correctly. But never mind we all have off days, or do you work for The Local.

I don't understand your statement, isn't it a bit like saying "What I don't understand is why everyone is OK with the right wing party when the Nazis killed 10's of millions of people in Europe"?

Great Scott,

er, the Nazis rose from the left, not the right. The liberals, who accuse the right wing of being Nazis, always overlook this kind of important historical fact.

@calebian22

I have to disappoint you but this is from Wikipedia "The ideologies usually associated with the far right include fascism, Nazism and other ultra-nationalist, religiously extreme or reactionary ideologies".

Far-right politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

So I think it is you that has overlooked this kind of important historical fact.

Sorry.

@calebian22

Its convenient for some to make the association of "right wing -> racist" and "left wing -> idealism for a better world" even if some of the most viciously racist regimes in history have been left wing. Unfortunately, by maintaining this fiction it means that some people on the left feel virtuous and are never forced to realise that its not just others' policies but also their own which can be perverted to cause mass suffering.

@Great Scott

I can't speak for Ray Stockholm but I guess he's wondering why one loony tunes party (vänsterpartiet) gets more or less a free ride in the press whereas another is demonised. Given Lars Ohly's tenuous attachment to the principles of democracy (check out his past statements) and the fact that the party contains a lot of people who spent much of their lives defending an ugly and failed ideology, this is a fair point.

To my knowledge information from Wikipedia is not acceptable in the academic environment. Do you have other sources to back up your argument Great Scott. Enjoying the English lessons. Cheers all

@ Nomark

I've studied the history of Vänsterpartiet as part of a university thesis and it's clear that at least from the 1960s onwards the party (and its predecessor the VPK) has been highly critical of the totalitarian form of 'communism' practised in the Eastern Bloc countries. You can always find a few dubious statements by various individuals but I don't think the party's genuine commitment to democracy has ever been in serious doubt. SD on the other hand are full of out-and-out neo-nazis who openly advocate hatred towards people based on their ethnic or religious background. They should not be treated like any other political party since they desire to take away the basic rights and freedoms of certain groups of people based purely on where they were born or who their parents are.

There was undoubtedly something of an alignment amongst some but not all members. Nevertheless, they still kept their links with the Eastern Bloc parties. The right-of-centre parties couldn't of course do this since such parties were banned in the workers paradises. An equally appropriate interpretation for the apparent shift is that they were forced into some criticism when the evidence (apparent to just everyone except for the looney tunes for a long time) become so great that they were looking foolish defending the Eastern Bloc states

A mainstream party leader should not have a history of knocking the democratic process. Call me picky but I like to feel a government minister is committed to parliamentary democracy. Any party leader with previous links to Nazi ideology wouldn't last five minutes. Yet still we indulge Ohly in spite of some of his outbursts:

For example:

"Marxism-leninismen är ett bra, riktigt och viktigt begrepp."

when it was clear to (almost) all that Marxism-Leninism led to mass suffering on a massive scale.

"Vi får aldrig acceptera ett demokratibegrepp som står höjt över klasskampen."

Really, I rather like democracy, for all its faults.

"Det kan vara så att inskränkningar av de demokratiska fri- och rättigheterna är den enda möjligheten för arbetarklassen att slå vakt om den största demokratiska reformen vi känner till - avskaffandet av utsugningen och kapitalismen."

The tide of Eastern Germans escaping the workers' paradise to go the nasty West made a mockery of that one. As did the fact that the East needed a bl**dy wall to keep them in in the first place. Wasn't this obvious to Ohly or was is just an extremist who prefers to avoid facts ?

Vänsterpartiet with its current leader is a loony tunes outfit. The fact that Ohly is indulged rather than condemned is certainly evidence of a double standard in the media when it comes to loony tunes politicos.

Great Scott,

Just because many extreme right wing groups of today have characteristics similar to the Nazi movement, doesn't negate the historical fact that the Nazi party rose out of left wing socialism. To reciprocate your unfounded arrogance, sorry.

Firs of all, please do mot refer to SD as "the extreme-right party"! They're not! It has however become evident that the greens are not a viable often for Sweden. They are nothing more than glorified social dems. And that, my friends, is completely unacceptable as these people are dictatorial marxist to the core. The green should simply fold and hook up with these social dems where they belong. Crush socialism!

@calebian22

Oh come on stop this denial, it is typical of right wing politics. To try and blame the social parties for Nazism is like trying to say that Thatcher gave money to the poor. Next you will be denying the holocaust happened.

It is the fact that right wing supporters hate the fact they are so close to Nazism that they try and shift this to the left.

This is what you and many others sound like, http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/02/10/an-american-stain-glenn-beck-and-the-radical-right-or-happy-birthday-glenn-beck/

Great Scott,

Well, just look at the name, Nationalsozialismus, National socialism, or Nazism as it is known. Explain that one. Did national socialism mean right wing conservative? No, it did not.

Liberals try and paint anyone who wishes to perserve the culture and lifestyle of Sweden as Nazis. It fits the tiny box available inside a tiny liberal mind. No one who knows anything about history, which doesn't include you apparently, would ever call Nazism a right wing movement.

As for denying the Holocaust, not a chance. You will not find a stronger supporter of Jews and by extension Israel, than myself. How can I be a Nazi if I love Jews?

@Great Scott

Oh dear, you do like to smear by what you think is rational association. If you bothered to study history you will see that there is a *lot* in Nazism that is socialist. The debate as to whether Nazism was socialist is as hot as ever. The issue i.e. "Nazi= what we regars as right wing policies" is simple only for dogmatic simpletons.

What is clear is that the label "right wing" has stuck when it comes to the Nazis but then again its easy to attach labels. This labelling allows the convenient linking,as you did, of anyone who may vote for a right-of-centre party as being a few steps away from supporting death camps. This is not only garbage, its dangerous garbage since it ignores the lessons of the history that extremism is the real problem, and that comes with both "left" and "right" labels.

It appears you are to the left of the centre. Therefore, by what passes for your "logic", your beliefs are but a few steps away from supporting the mass deportations of troublesome nationalities in the Soviet Union, genocide against ethnic minorities in Kampuchea (the Chinese fared as badly as the "intellectuals"), the oppression of the Turks in communist Bulgaria, not to mention the deaths of millions under Mao etc etc. The list goes on. Communist regimes proved themselves as nasty and as vicious as anything the Nazis cooked up. Furthermore, since they lasted longer they also destroyed more lives than the Nazis.

Me, I just dislike extremism and the smugness of the ignorant who like to smear without the slightest regard for historical fact or the weakness of their own position.

I'm enjoying reading some of the ignorant comments above. Let me clarify in simple terms; 1) Mao killed 55 Million people. 2) Stalin was a coward by comparison. He only killed 30 - 40 Million people. 3) Hitler was a demure little schoolgirl. He is merely responsible for 12 Million deaths. Now, why is it that you people on the verminous left always cast wishful glances towards socialists Mao and Stalin? - I only want to hear responses from socialists and communists(really the same thing)..

@Syftfel and Nomark

It is obvious that you are blind to the denial you are making. Any help seems to be worthless to you.

The so called left as you keep going on about, that I stand for has absolutely nothing to do with Communism. Why do you keep bringing up Mao and Stalin, they were murderers and I can say one thing and that is I don't support any of their politics. The problem with you guys is the only defense you have is to sling sh!t and compare left wing politics with Communism. This in turn makes you appear like Nazis.

The politics that I support are a first class welfare system that supports all, fair job opportunities and a minimum wage, a high standard of education, a fair tax system where the lower paid are not punished and a government that will support business and encourage foreign business to create jobs. Where does it say anything about Communism?

What I don't support is cuts in education, cuts in welfare (which the current government has done), high unemployment and the unemployed being made to work for nothing (slavery), taxes that have been lowered only to suit the well paid, a government with no guts to support businesses and protect jobs, a government that does not know how to encourage foreign business.

I do not support a government that cares only for its own kind, where the rich get richer and poor get poorer.

calebian 22

"er, the Nazis rose from the left, not the right. The liberals, who accuse the right wing of being Nazis, always overlook this kind of important historical fact."

So how come most nazi followers and collaborators derrived from anticommunist right-wing and centrist background, while most members of anti-nazi resistance movement came from left-wing background?

btw i see that both you and syftfel are apologists of Sveriges Demokraterna, so take a look what your crony thinks about so-called left wing nazis.

14:07 June 3, 2011 by Syftfel

"The only question right now is, do we want a Stalin(killed 40 million people), or Hitler (killed only 12 million people). At the rate things are going in Sweden, we definitely need a dictator from the Right. It may give us a few years to eliminate the socialistic poison, and to eliminate the social dems completely! While we ponder over this, we should reset the voting age to 21. To allow 18-year olds to vote was a big mistake! "

http://www.thelocal.se/34160/20110603/

@Great Scott

I'm afraid you have totally missed the points of the posts - probably deliberately. Shifting the topic sideways avoids you having to defend what you wrote.

The posts were not questioning what you believe in but were addressing your prejudice and ignorance of modern and historical politics. For example, you wrote, "It is the fact that right wing supporters hate the fact they are so close to Nazism that they try and shift this to the left." Really ? I rather suspect most right wing voters just want a bit less of the state and a bit more self-help. Hardly Nazism.

I simply pointed out the absurdity of your statement by linking left wing voters to the crimes of communism. This you take great umbrage at and give us a bit of rhetoric about what you believe in. I really couldn't care less - it has nothing to do with this discussion. After all, if as you wrote,". It is the fact that right wing supporters hate the fact they are so close to Nazism" then why is not cr*p to write to link left wing voters with the crimes of communism ? This is of course absurd, but a useful way to illustrate the absurdity in your argument.

Also, please acquaint yourself with the debate about whether or not the Nazis were socialists. Unlike your argument, its complicated and deep.

@Le Monde

Regarding Hitler's antipathy towards the Soviet Union, it is quite possible for one set of people with socialist leanings to utterly despise another. The twentieth century is littered with such disagreements, and they sometimes led to war; look at Sino-Soviet history and the proxy conflicts they produced.

BTW for a comparison of the similaries and differences of the systems in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union I recommend Alan Bullock's classic work on Stalin and Hitler. Alternatively, Great Scott seems to be an authority on the topic.

Nomark

"Its convenient for some to make the association of "right wing -> racist" and "left wing -> idealism for a better world" even if some of the most viciously racist regimes in history have been left wing. Unfortunately, by maintaining this fiction it means that some people on the left feel virtuous and are never forced to realise that its not just others' policies but also their own which can be perverted to cause mass suffering."

Have you ever heard about old saying that thief always screams stop the thief the loudest? And you anti-communists always behave like that thief.

It is much more convenient to forget that anticommunism brought about the biggest patologies in history of modern human kind, causing suffering of so many people that

ist hard to understand how come people like you are not being prosecuted for its arrogance. There are still people here who remember that Axis Powers were the biggest manifestation of anticommunism in history of civilisation, and guess what Nomark. Those genocidal psychopats were not fighting for people like myself, but exactly for such elements like you, syftel and calebian 22. And they lost. Allies or according to propaganda of Axis, communists and their cronies, didnt liberate human kind to let you behave like this. Quite on the contrary, so show me that you are not latent nazi and resist Syftfel. Now!

@Le Monde

Congratulations - I've read some ridiculous tripe on this forum but yours takes the biscuit.

A few highlights:

(1) I particularly enjoyed the bit about the Axis Powers fighting for people like me. I would be insulted were it not so absurd.

(2) I am expected to show my anti-Nazi credentials because I wrote about the crimes of communism. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this cr*p of slurring by made up association is ridiculous. I'll happily show my anti-Nazi credentials once you demonstrate that I have written *anything*, *anywhere* which could in any way be interpreted as showing a leaning or sympathy towards Nazism. Come on - man up. You made the slur, now back it up !! To slur with no evidence is truly pathetic. Come on - evidence of my Nazi leanings .

Getting back to the original story - when I read the headline I wondered 'When was the election?'

Of course it was only an opinion poll, and much can happen between now and the real election. Like for example maybe people realising the 'Greens' have not much new to offer?

The Green party is a pure "dream team" without any political substance on a weak foundation and obviously so are the voters who live a radical dream. I wrote this in an earlier post......

to produce the solar cells (from polysilicon) that can produce 1,000 MW (about 1 nuclear reactor) of solar electricity you need to generate over 300 MW in the first place and the process to do so is pretty nasty with loads of carcinogenic elements involved.

russia has put on hold some of their contemplated facilities.

then you have all the plumbing, fixtures etc made of polyethylene/polypropylene which requires loads of energy and oil derivatives.

china is currently planning/constructing 27 reactors - lol.

it is impossible to scrap nuclear power from one day to the other but should be in phases with a clear replacement plan yet to be seen in sweden.

however to have 2/3 of power from renewable in sweden is nonsense.

The Markbygden Wind Farm will be a series of wind farms in Norrbotten County and will be built by 2020, will have a capacity of up to 4 GW. If built out, the 55 billion kronor (€5.1 billion) project will be the largest wind farm in Europe. It will cover some 450 sq km, comprising about 1,100 wind turbines, and is expected to produce up to 12 TWh of electricity per year.

Swedish consumption is 150TWh..............

@Jackx123

Please, nobody wants to hear sourced assertions and facts - this could lead to a well informed debate. The fact is that "being Green" is good and voting Green makes one feel good.

And what happens when the wind does not blow - do we sit in the dark

Mosat of these grren theories just dont work and result in higher hidden taxes.

Only 3% of Co2 is mand made - it is plain silly to think the western world can make any difference to this

Great Scott and Le monde,

The inability to admit the wrongs of the left throughout history is not a sign that you have learned from history or apparently even heard of the wrongs in passing. Rewriting the meaning of "left or liberal" in the last 15-20 years, does not change the meaning throughout the entire 20th century. Asserting that it does just displays a level of ignorance that is laughable. The la la land that you both live in sounds nice, especially Great Scott's, but it will never come to pass. Greedy and power hungry leaders will always overcome starry eyed morons with dreams of lollipops and rainbows.

As for me being an apologist for the Sweden Democrats, why is an apology needed? I support SD's desire for Sweden to withdraw from the EU's voluntary refugee resettlement plan. Why take more when Sweden can't handle the one's living here already? The notion that all Sweden has to do is teach these people Swedish and then Sweden can benefit from their homeland expertise is beyond ridiculous. Where in Sweden is their a need for goatherders and pirates? Go to an SFI class and see for yourself what Sweden is accepting. See how many "immigrants" are having the teacher sign their green attendance sheet so they can get their benefit package. Go back 6 terms later and see how many of them are still there.

The system is broken. The only ones talking about fixing the problem in anything but a lipservice manner are the Sweden Democrats. That is why they will have my vote next time around and I am an immigrant to Sweden. Funny how that works out, huh?

@calebian22

Sorry for the late reply, but have not been free until now. Let's go back to your statement where you claim that the Nazis come from Communism

The reason I had to inform you of my beliefs was so that you could understand what politics (socialism) I support, you then rant on forming at the mouth that you did not want to hear that. In an earlier statement you quoted "Crush socialism", maybe now you understand why I did so.

I do also believe you are from the far right, because you keep on insisting that Nazism grew from the left. The only information I can find relating to this is the wide spread rants of the far right, this is just the far right propaganda that you believe in. The fact is the far right does not want to be associated with Hitler because of the people he murdered. This is another reason why the far right wants to blame the socialists.

You do not wish to believe in what Wikipedia says so maybe you can point me in the direction of better information regarding your theory.

Referring to the end of your last statement, it clearly shows that you are in a full state of denial, this is typical of the far right.

Great Scott: I disgree with you. Strongly! What Sweden needs to do is to take chainsaw and disembowel the entire Swedish welfare system. and then start from scratch. She also needs to extricate a certain palme from her history. This vermin has been the cause of more ills in Sweden than any hitherto known phenomenon. Your comments are are a case in point.

@Syftfel

So we are now at a point of breaking down the welfare state, what do you suggest. What does Sweden do with its hospitals? What happens to local surgeries? What happen to mental health care? What happens to the elderly support and pensions? What happens to the unemployed and support for them? What happens to sick pay and what happens to child allowances and care? I am waiting to see what you would do.

Regarding Palme, what is your problem? He was huge critic of BOTH Communist and far right regimes, he was hugely popular amongst the Swedish population. It took a murderer to stop him, who knows if that had not happened he could have still been around today. He was seen as a huge threat to the far right and maybe (I am not saying so) they could have been responsible for the murder. Calling the man vermin is a word of the far right.

Some of the things he was well known for.

He criticised the United States over the Vietnam War.

He criticised the crushing of the Prague Spring by the Soviet Union.

He campaigned against nuclear weapons.

He criticised the Franco Regime in Spain.

He opposed apartheid and support for economic sanctions against South Africa.

He criticised the Pinochet Regime in Chile.

@Great Scott

You wrote:

"It is the fact that right wing supporters hate the fact they are so close to Nazism that they try and shift this to the left."

Its utter rubbish to write that right wing supporters are "close to Nazism" but its something you clearly believe in. Furthermore, as mentioned repeatedly, the debate about the socialism of the Nazi state is complex (see, eg, Alan Bullock's "Hitler and Stalin - Parallel Lives"). The topic is only simple to simpletons.

However, funnily enough, when I made an association between left wing supporter being close to the crimes of communism, you got really annoyed.

The statement is of course rubbish but no more so than your own.

What I don't get is why you hold to absurd statement but not its equally absurd corollary. I have asked you about this but you simply ignored the question. Very weak. People should stand for what they write, and not just write cr*p.

Is the Miljöpartiet affiliated with Norway's environmental organisation, Fu*k For Forest (FFF)?

@Le Monde

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the Axis Powers were fighting for people like me. This is strange since I've always thought of myself as a fan of boring old Parliamentary democracy and universal human rights. However, judging by the certainty with which you write, you clearly know best so if there is something dark lurking in my heart it would be good for me to understand it.

Disclaimer: I must confess that I'm requesting your explanation largely for the comedy value it will provide.

@Nomark

I am not at all trying to avoid any questions you have, nor does anything you say disturb or upset me in any way. In fact I laugh at your hideous comments, a pure demonstration of smugness which you in turn claim to dislike. Good, so I Have cleared that up.

I can honestly say that I have not read the book you mention, and is after all is only the view of only one person. However trying to research any information on your claims about the book, showed very little that shows your point in detail.

Answering your question regarding the Nazis and socialism (left wing politics), this must not be confused with National Socialism (Nazis). The follwing is taken from Wikipedia and although it does state philosophies from right and left wing ideologies, it clearly states Nazism was a far right form of politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_socialism#Anti-communism

"Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism; alternatively spelled Naziism was the ideology and practice of the Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany It was a unique variety of fascism that incorporated biological racism and antisemitism. Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies; in practice, Nazism was a far right form of politics".

You make ridiculous comments about normal left wing socialism (which you claim to be a few steps away fromCommunism) , what comes to mind is how you really try and defend the right, as all your attacks are on Socialism which you see as Communists!

@Great Scott

Laughing at my "hideous comments" doesn't address the question. Nor does getting hysterial. If there was a prize for missing the point and lacking self-awareness you would win it.

To summarise:

(1) You wrote that ""It is the fact that right wing supporters hate the fact they are so close to Nazism that they try and shift this to the left."

(2) As a "right wing supporter" (like most of Europe these days, most EU citizens are governed by centre-right parties) I can state that your statement really is rubbish. I am not close to Nazism, nor is the average right wing supporter. I'm sure you'll find some on the extreme right who are closet Nazis but this is the same thing as some extreme lefties being close to the crimes of communism.

(3) Here is is the question again. I've starred it for you in case you miss it. It really is simple. Its a simple corollary to your "fact": Its the logical consequences of the question which are important.

if right wing supporters are close to Nazism then why can't I write that left wing supporters are close to the crimes on communism ?

Its clear that You wholly missed the point of the question. I'm simply applying your "logic" to show stupid your post is. You get terribly upset when I link socialists to the crimes of communism and yet feel it is perfectly ok to write utter cr*p about those to the right of centre. You get it ? An inconsistency perhaps in your reasoning? You still stand behind the "right wing -> Nazi" bit ? Is this just absurd prejudice on your part ? You really think that right wingers are close to Nazism but don't see that because the corollary doesn't work then this invalidates your whole nasty little argument ??

BTW - wikipedia is not generally considered to be a reliable source for academic studies, for very good reasons since *anyone* can write it. I gave you the name of a classic text written by an acknowledged expert. If you want to dismiss it, fine, but at least read the bl**dy thing first. Otherwise, like the "right wing -> Nazi", "left wing -> communist" argument you end writing moronic posts.

I don't know where you get the idea from that you are upsetting me, in fact I think it's you getting upset by the way you start throwing around hideous remarks.

Your summary

(1)You wrote that ""It is the fact that right wing supporters hate the fact they are so close to Nazism that they try and shift this to the left."

OK I put my hands up here and I didn't see it, but should have said "far right wing", that was wrong of me.

But your not reading the whole story, take a look at Rey Stockholm's statement where this all started from.

10:45 June 5, 2011 by Rey Stockholm

What I don't understand is why everyone is OK with the left wind party when communism killed 10's of millions of people in europe.

It's quit clear that Rey Stockholm is saying the left wing people are communists and is saying the left wing killed millions, this provoked this answer.

"isn't it a bit like saying "What I don't understand is why everyone is OK with the right wing party when the Nazis killed 10's of millions of people in Europe"?"

This statement was before my error and my question was exactly the same as yours but in reverse. You failed to acknowledge this why.

Now you see yourself as a logical person, why don't you ask Rey Stockholm about his statement. Now for one of your smug statements (I must remind you that you don't like smug statements), "You get it?"

Yes I cocked up missing one word, but you don't have it all your way.

I read your note regarding Wikipedia and agree, but I can also say the same for any author unless they can prove the facts.

Great Scott,

I never said that the Nazis came from communism. I said it it rose from the left and socialism. I also never said crush socialism. You are confusing me with someone else. If I had said the Nazis came from communism, you would be correct. That is moronic. I think socialism works just fine here in Sweden, even though I am not a left wing loon.

However, you should read Wikipedia a little better. National socialist or Nazi does not mean it comes from the right of the political spectrum. Since you obviously can't read the internet correctly or pay attention to posts, I will have to conclude that you are a dimwitted liberal who only "believes," he is correct, rather than doing the research to learn if he correct.

Good luck.

@Great Scott

Reread your post if you wonder why I think you've been upset during this discussion. I haven't written anything hideous, I simply stress-tested the logic of your statements.

Regarding Ray Stockholm, I have no idea (to any definitive level) what he meant.

Regarding wikipedia vs books written by experts with credentials, I never claimed that the book I cited had the answers. I simply wrote that the issue was complex (that statement is definitive) and that this discussion is covered well in the book . At the very least I can be assured that the author (who also wrote "Hitler- A Study in Tyranny") (a) is a real expert in this area of history and (b) doesn't harbour any Nazi leanings. When it comes to wikipedia, most authors aren't named and their expertise and experience (or lack of it in many/most cases) isn't known. That's why cutting and pasting from wikipedia and pretending that a statement is definitive (as you did) isn't sensible. The interpretation of history rarely lends itself to definitive statements, however much we may hope that it does.

@calebian22

Yes you are right the post was meant for Syftfel, I do truly apologise for this error.

However if it had been meant for you, it wouldn't have been far from the truth. You rant and rave like the true arrogant far right bully you are. Your use of trying to belittle people by name calling is typical of the far right. If Sweden wants to accept people from other lands, it is not your problem it's for the Swedes to decide. The Sweden democrats and the National front are dangerous. You may not think so now, but seeing that you are an immigrant, even you could be a victim. Also understand that I am not saying immigration in large numbers is right. But I'm sure that voting for the far right will have more serious consequences, this is what the Germans fell for in 1933.

Regarding Wikipedia it's obvious that you have failed to read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_socialism#Anti-communism

Which means that you obviously can't read the internet as well? You mentioned early National socialism, you will see that it must not be confused with socialism. Type National socialism into Wikipedia and see what you get.

As for your other outlandish comment, I find just like you that only dimwitted far right wing people who are always in denial believe they correct.

I would like to point out that yes I do believe in socialism (don't get it wrong, not communism), I am not saying they are perfect by all means, but its better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

I think I have laid out my reason earlier on, I do believe in a fair and equal society. I don't believe privatisation of essential utility's and services, prices only rise while quality and standards drop.

I never trust the right wing because they have no interest in the common person, they only look after their own kind. Never during my life time have I ever seen the right wing do anything that was good for me, and I am not short of things that's for sure. If you say dropping taxes then don't be fooled, they will give you a penny and then take away a pound by finding other means.

@ Nomark

Why do you keep on thinking that you have upset me, I am sitting here very calm and relaxed thinking about my summer holidays this year. Does the thought that you are upsetting me make you feel good, if so I am glad for you, because we all need a little pick me up from time to time?

I just love this statement "stress-tested the logic of your statements", I didn't want to tell but if you can keep a secret, I was doing the same to you. But to crown it all, I do love your logic of "smugness", oh sorry there I go again you don't like that word do you.

And I really thought you where some form of smart guy, but you just couldn't work out what Rey Stockholm was trying to say, dam. I will have to ask my grandson.

Then it took you 139 words for you to try and come up with an excuse as to why, one man knows more than others who have written in Wikipedia. Na I don't buy that.

@Great Scott

You seem very worried about being thought to be upset. Regarding, "smugness", I don't mind at all if you call me that. I've been called far worse.

Regarding Ray Stockholm, given your inability to understand the very clear posts pointing out the absurdity of what you wrote (something you later agreed with) you should ask yourself if you're really in a position to know exactly what he meant. However, this is sterile discussion. If you're really interested in what he said, send him a message and ask him to rejoin the discussion.

I see you continue to quote wikipedia. A quick look at the authors for that article shows that it has been written by (amongst many others) : "Optimist on the run", "IronMaidenRocks", "Graham87", "Seb az86556". At the risk of sounding smug, do you see why one should be extremely careful about treating wikipedia as a serious source in a discussion ?

@ Nomark

I think this has come to end of its sell by date now, but it was good banter and did end a little humorously.

I wholly agree - its been a good game :).

WHy is no Western Channel showing the yesterday's rally in support of Bashar Al Assad of Syria ? Strange...You can only watch it on Presstv.ir .......Its not good for BBC, CNN, SKY etc