Published: 5 Aug 11 16:02 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/35382/20110805/
A Gothenburg tram driver has been charged with racial agitation (hets mot folkgrupp) for allegedly harassing a group of teenage boys with foreign backgrounds.
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For anyone defending the tram driver and saying that a "few words" are no reason to be arrested. Think about it he is employed to deal with customers rowdy or not it is part of his job description and to utter racial slurs especially in this situation where the boys themselves did not do anything other than take their seats, is wrong.
These lads whose only wrongdoing was running for a tram and holding the doors open as i have seen done a countless times on the tunnelbana or the tube in london, did not deserve to be ejected or racially abused. Think about it if the driver was only annoyed that there was a delay then why keep the tram held up for 10 minutes until they got off?
The freezer might be inside their so called heads. The tram driver tried to warm them up. He did not succeed and then he got furious and since everything you say in Sweden against anybody is consider racial agitation, children and teenagers can defecate on you and you are helpless. If you dare to retaliate, you are lost. You are the one committing a crime.
Forgive them oh Father, because they do not know what they do.
But Sreja, where did you read that someone is calling me a "svartskalle"? Not in this thread.
If that stupid knows me, he/she needs to go to an optrician. If he/she does not know me, than he/she is supposing that because I come from a Latin country, I must be a "svartskalle". Of course. That is the typical way of how a Swede would think
And then you are surprised about the "type" of commentators that have invaded The Local?
I think Sweden has become too much like US. Sensitivtiy and political correctness take precedence over non sense issues and facts. This tram driver has the guts to say what most people are thinking. I guess there are probably worse names to call these teenage rascals. I don't agree with his actions (killing his fellow citizens) but isn't this mass shooting in Norway recently is what this is all about. Hopefully, the tram driver will take the required customer friendly service course and all will be forgotten and he can keep his tram driver position.
Many readers would say yeah what's the big deal, But nothing is a big deal until it happens to you. Nothing is a big deal until it happens many times in your life in many different situations, especially in unprovoked ones.
The conductor was wrong to use racial slurs.
But let us not lose sight of the fact that immigrants come to Scandinavia and cause problems - sometimes innocently and unwittingly, sometimes on purpose.
Mass immigration creates a systematic problems.
I come from Canada where we have to erase every bit of our identity in order to accommodation newcomers.
You can either chose: Sweden, or the melting-pot of multiculturalism. The only 'Sweden' remaining after multiculturalism is a flag, a passport and a few legal institutions.
The notion that to be Swedish is 'an idea' is rubbish - especially since it is subject to gross interpretation by every Swede.
Globalization and mass immigration will erase Sweden in 1 generation.
Like as some other person mention ealier,if i was a black person sitting on that tram and understood the swedish slang,of course,i would have been pissed off and last but not the least,the holding doors culture i don't like but then again people are different the way they behave,especially teenagers which is not so surprising in this situation and the driver should have just ignore them considering that they look young to act like he would have expect them to.
If NOT, the conductor owes an apology to the boys, and that should end it. If it WAS an accurate description, then persecution---legal or not---of this man is a gross violation of his basic human right of free speech. How soon we forget the Germany of 75 years ago or the Soviet Union of just one generation ago. Anti free speech laws have no place in a civilized society
In Sweden, if you call someone "svarskalle" you bet you will wind up in jail, but any "svartskalle" can call a Swedish blond girl "white whore" an nothing happens.
So, next time I have a problem with a "svartskalle" i will call him "vitskalle" (white skull). If they feel ofended and the police is called, I will say that I am daltonic and that I do not dig how the "vistskalle" new I was.
So you are an Eskimo?
Otherwise shut the F UP.
The train conductor should be warned, apologize and do a few hours of community service. But be allowed to keep his job.
The youngsters should be taught some manners. They should not hold up the train. Black, Chinese, Apple pie, or a Svensson.
However, if you work with the public you need to be able to handle the stress. This guy flipped out. While I can understand it, I do not condone it. The driver should be punished and may even lose his job. Tough break.
Saying whatever you want is not freedom of speech and there will not be a civilized society as long as racism still exists in such minds!
Will you please define what is freedom of speech?
For me is consigned in the First Amendment protecting freedom of speech.
The U.S. Supreme Court often has struggled to determine what exactly constitutes protected speech. The following are examples of speech, both direct (words) and symbolic (actions), that the Court has decided are either entitled to First Amendment protections, or not.
The First Amendment states, in relevant part, that:
"Congress shall make no law...abridging freedom of speech."
Freedom of speech includes the right:
Not to speak (specifically, the right not to salute the flag).
Of students to wear black armbands to school to protest a war
To use certain offensive words and phrases to convey political messages.
To advertise commercial products and professional services (with some restrictions)
To engage in symbolic speech, e.g., burning the flag in protest.
Freedom of speech does not include the right:
To incite actions that would harm others
To make or distribute obscene materials.
To burn draft cards as an anti-war protest
To permit students to print articles in a school newspaper over the objections of the school administration.
Of students to make an obscene speech at a school-sponsored event.
Of students to advocate illegal drug use at a school-sponsored event.
Now, you let me know your version.
Welcome to reality.
16:35 August 6, 2011 by darky
Who cares if the tram driver is a she, he or it.
He did what he did because he was fed up with a situation that in Sweden has become the daily bread and butter, whether this comment is liked or not by some of the many canukeees and shoestones in this thread, I do not give a you know what.
The world is full of "maybe" and "if", but you should change the order of your meanings like:
"Both sides were wrong really, one side FOR HOLDING the door of a public transport and the other side for BEING STUPID and saying racial stuff. The cause of the racial stuff is the way the nice, little tiny, innocent youngsters behaved and nothing more.
You are really naive if you think that the word "please" is in their vocabulary. It would be certainly a first.
People in Sweden have forgotten how to say please, forgive me, excuse me and/or thanks and you expect the nice little kids to do it? You just won a prize.
as i just did reply to you :)
Huh? What planet is he from?
I can't open your reply message because it says "This function is probably accessible to signed in members only" while I was signed in! Anyway, you can reply here if you don't mind! I define freedom of speech myself and according to what the humanity says. If you think that racism and insulting people with racist words is kind of freedom of speech, you are completely WRONG!
@J.L Belmar
I really don't care what your boss in US defined the freedom of speech as they used to define any thing based on their benefits and then expect other nations obey them blindly! Big markets such as human-rights associations and NGOs are nice just in face and you can see all over the world how they react to different cases!
Immigrants do not integrate if they feel they do not have to. If you could come to a first world country, enjoy all the benefits, without having to adopt what you perceived as negative aspects of that culture, then why would you change?
Certainly the politcians aren't giving immigrants any reason to do so. You've only got to be white and walk around Surrey (in Vancouver) before you understand you're a long way from Amritsar (sikh holy city/capital?), and they'll let you know it!
So all you people talking about Canada this, Canada that, stop right now, you haven't a clue what you're on about.
@cowboycodpiece - eskimos immigrated too sunshine.
First, it is not my boss in the USA. I wrote about what is in their Constitution, because it is quite complete and I thought it would provoke more debate in an already dying one.
Second, I have always thought like you, that freedom of speech has a limit: common sense, decency. In the name of freedom of speech, you should not insult or make racist comments at all. You should not make cartoons insulting Mahoma like the ones published in the Jyllands Post of Denmark. You should not portrait Mahoma like a dog, like the pseudo Swedish artist did for selling his crap.
Third, the problem, as I see it, is that freedom of speech is something that is looked through the colour of different glasses. There is no consensus, real consensus in its meaning. But let us put ourselves, you and me, for a moment in the tram driver's shoes.
Would we have thought about not trespassing the freedom of speech, when being harassed by the sweet and tender teenagers? I promise that I would have been really mad and I do not know what kind of language I would have used against them. What about you? Would you not have lost your temper in a similar situation? If you say no, congratulations, because you are just one of a kind.
01:28 August 7, 2011 by Njal
People do integrate, if they let them. In Sweden, integration is just a myth. The government speaks, writes and "fights"(!) for integration. Swedes do not integrate with us foreigners. They do not want us. It takes more or less 7 years for an inmigrant to find a job.
I have lived in Sweden for more than twenty five years. I know what I am talking about.
In Canada, if they need plumbers, they let plumbers to go into the country. If they need MD, they do not hesitate in allowing them to work after going through a serial of tests.
Ten years ago, I managed to send to Canada an Estonian MD who was willing to stay in Sweden and requested political asylum because he was persecuted by some Russian authorities down there. No chance, but with the help of the Costarican ambassador in Sweden, Costa Rica granted him and his wife Ursula, political asylum. From Costa Rica, it was quite easy to send them to Canada. The Canadian Embassy there was extremely helpful. At the present time, Johan and Ursula live in the USA. He is working at a huge hospital and she is administrative manager at a bank. They could keep on moving in their lives, thanks to marvelous Canada.
Just recently, a friend of mine, a top female MD, received his Canadian nationality. Now she has two. But, she had to go through many tests and she has to work two years outside of the urban areas. One of our posters here, jacquelinee, is of Canadian origin. She would back me on this.
- SOME immigrants integrate, but enough (most) do not that the very politicians who implemented/designed these policies have gone on public record worldwide saying that 'multiculture' is a failure. As I've pointed out before, this is an undeniable fact admitted to by people who are in a position to accurately comment upon the subject.
Also, you won't find too many Canucks who've got a problem with immigrants from Europe. Why? because they come from a way of life/value system close enough to our own that they don't seem to have too much trouble integrating. The same cannot be said of others, (African man recently/knowingly infects 5 Canadian women with AIDS, 2 of whom are now dead, absolutely no remorse, and the muslims have been trying to pass Sharia law since they got here, or perhaps the sikhs who willfully glorify Sikh bombers in their cultural parades, who killed innocent Canadians, even tho' the Sikhs know that they are not supposed to put the pictures of such men on their floats in their parades).
Glad to hear about your friend's positive experience, but again, allow me to remind you that Western leaders (and the majority of their naturalized populations), do not agree with you. Did you notice it in world headlines when many Western leaders admitted to this fact?
I do back you up 100% I am Canadainof Scottish/French origin. As a Canadian, I grew up in a totally integrated culture (don't believe Canuk) Of course you get the odd extremist, raicist, nutcase, you will find that anywhere. Most Canaadians though just view all cultures as.... French Canadian, Irish Canadian, Chinese Canadian, Korean Canadian, Ísraeli Canadian, First Nations Canadian, Somalian Canadian, Iranian Canadian etc etc etc.
When I first came to Sweden, I sort of flew under the radar for a bit as I am blonde, but when I began to get a bit more comfortable and a bit less shy and opened my mouth, then I reasised I sure was not in the club. I went to SFI and found that I, and a blonde woman from Germany were treated far better than many other students ...because we were blonde, Still we were not in the club anyway.
I have been hung up on, had eyes rolled at me, backs turned on me, negative comments made, lost jobs,ignored at functions, had people in Government jobs (who speak English) deliberately speak high level Swedish to me to make me feel stupid and like an outsider (it worked) I am amazed daily at the racism and bigotry here. I am amazed daily at the brainwashing here.Example? The continual malpractice and disfunction of the medical profession, it's blatent disregard for patient safety (ambulances!) But when you try to speak to a Swede, they you at you like you are crazy and say "We have the best medical care in the world" and they actually believe it...even with the truth staring them in their own faces. I know what good health care is, Canada has good health care. Canada has great doctors from a myriad of countries. Doctors in Canada need more than some piece of paper (betyg) that says " I AM A DOCTOR" they need EXTENSIVE in depth education and exceptional grades. But that is another story.
Integration here is like most things in Sweden. Movie sets. You know in those movies where you see the big beautiful mansion and it looks awesome, but in actuality it is just a cardboard facade with nothing behind it. WEll, that is integration in Sweden.
As I have said of other things... INTEGRATION IN SWEDEN IS JUST LIKE A SWEDISH UMBREALLA: IT LOOKS REALLY GREAT BUT IT IS SO POORLY CONSTRUCTED THAT IF YOU TRY TO USE IT AT ALL IT WILL BREAK AND IS TOTALLY USELESS:
I know that any Swede who comes to Canada will NOT be treated that way (if it were only for their hockey prowess), but seriously, our experience with immigration has not been quite as sudden as that of Sweden's experience. I wonder if back in the 1980's before all the BS in Sweden began, would you and your friend be treated the same way? One can only wonder, with their current immigration, what it may otherwise have been like had such policies not been implemented.
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with the Swedes, but with all the confusion going on these days, perhaps it's hard to blame them. If it's too much, come on home.
Roger that!
I believe that here is no cultural integration anywhere in the world! People who migrate have their own culture and attitudes. By migration, we just face with a new world with totally different culture and totally different people. Of course, We take effect and change in life style or change some of our attitudes(positive or negative) but the culture is not a thing to be changed and there should not be such a expectation from government!
By migration, we learn how and to what extent we can live near each other peacefully and tolerate our nature differences. This is the real democracy and this is what the people expect! We do not expect for integration and we are not heading to it because we know that it's not possible at all as Jacquelinee mentioned we finally(and mostly hidden) label people like French Canadian, Irish Canadian, Iranian Canadian and etc
I may need too clarify what I meant by ....
" French Canadian, Irish Canadian, Chinese Canadian, Korean Canadian, Ísraeli Canadian, First Nations Canadian, Somalian Canadian, Iranian Canadian etc etc etc. "
What I meant was that, although we are all viewed as Canadian citizens, we recognise our heritages as well and we embrace the amany other heritages too. There is so much you can take from each culture to enrich your own. The First Nations Canadians have a deep and powerful appreciation of the natural world that it makes me proud to embrace as part of being Canadian. I love to walk through the Toronto " villages" and sample the differenet cultures, their food, their shops etc, to speak with them and experience their viewpoints.
Although I am not Italian, I lived in an Italian community in Toronto. I was embraced inspite of my total lack of knowledge of Italian culture.
At one time, my neighbours below me happened to be a black Jamacian couple with 5 lovely children. At Christmas I took them down some Christmas cookies and they invited me and my daughter to have New Years dinner with them. Their youngest son smiled and said "You are the first white people we ever had for supper". It was a wonderful evening with traditional Jamacian food (which I now can cook) and one I will treasure in my memory. It also dispelled their preconceived idea that white people were intolerant racists. We both were just people celebrating a shiny new year, full of hope and bright promise.
The closest church to me at one point was a black gospel church and my daughter and I went and were welcomed because we all knew God designs variety.
How boring life would be if the only flowers were red roses, if the only fruit were apples, if the only vegetable were carrots. How sad for people when they seclude themseves into a little sect and won't look past their doors. There is a big, wide world out there full of interesting histories, wisdoms, viewpoints, cultures to share that enrich our lives, OUR cultures, our humaity.
Intolerance is an ignorance, a disease, a cancer, which actually has very little real effect on the despised party except perhaps to make life a little more challenging.
But that cancer eats away at the intolerant one creating more darkness and more hatred as it progresses (as all cancers do) Bigots including Swedish ones, deprive themselves of so much by remaining so near sighted. You CAN understand, interact, make your own life richer and learn from those different than you and still maintain your own heritage, nationality and identity.
Sad that narrow minded people are so small they can not see. I have heard people say "Your eyes are the first thing you go blind with" but I believe it is your mind.
Once upon a time, the ambassador of Botswana and his wife (Alfred Duve and Mrs. Duve), who, at the time were my tennis students, decided to throw an open house at the embassy's residence in Lidingö. Well, they prepared everything to receive their neighbors for more than two years and guess what. Not one of them came to the residence. Not one.In spite of the fact that tons of food and drinks were at their disposal. One of the nice "neighbours" told Mrs. Duve: "We do not like blacks in the area".
You cannot say that Swedes were racists. Not at all. They just did not like the colour of their skin. They do not like black. They love blue and yellow.
There are 8 million Swedes in the world, think about that for a sec. Can Swedes interact, enrich and teach others who are different from them? While they are still allowed to maintain their heritage, nationality and identity? Or are Swedes just ignorante bigots and racists that should be ignored because they live in a shitty, small country in the north?
The hate against Swedes and Sweden on this site is horrid.
You may want to go back and read through a lot of the posts. The hate against immigrants on this site is even more frightening.
As I said in my post #59, Bigots, including Swedish ones, deprive themselves of so much by remaining so near sighted. I am not saying all Swedes are bigots. They are not. I married a Swedish man and he is as fair, unpredjudiced and as just a person as you could ever meet.
There are bigots everywhere. They are born from fear and ignorance. I am not saying they are stupid or they are ignorant, but they have ignorance towards others. It is very scary to be surrounded by people speaking a strange language that you do not understand, as I myself discovered when I moved to Sweden. The fear is born from misunderstanding. My husband and I have spoken a lot on this. That lack of being able to understand another because of language barriers is often the foundation for so many problems between peoples and nations.
If you are trying to say that there is no discrimmination or predjudice or racism in Sweden from Swedes, you are sadly mistaken. I know first hand you are sadly mistaken. And there is also from the non Swedes. It is a sad reality.
Sweden is a beautiful country and a good one for the most part, not a perfect one and definately one that needs some upgrading in certain areas i.e. medical care and education in order to remain in the forefront in these areas. And yes, other peoples can learn a great deal from Swedes. The cleanliness and maintenance of buildings, infastructure etc is exemplorary when compared to many countries. The taxation is high, but a great percentage of it does go to help the country and it's citizens. Although the government is often criticised and sometimes, rightly so, it is not a terrible corrupt one as so many are and Sweden can be very proud of that. Sweden has much to share AND much to learn. That is the part that I feel Swedes lack. They are brainwashed into a false sense of perfection in many ways. They see other cultures as interlopers and threats instead of realising that they have elements that can make Sweden and it's people grow and evolve into a better Sweden, NOT an extinct Sweden or a destroyed Sweden.
We will never end bigotry. There will always be those who build themselves up and make themselves feel superior by trying to put others down and perceive them as inferior. That won't change, in any culture or demographic. Yes there are Swede haters here, there are homophobes, and islam and muslim haters. There are those who hate the whites and the blacks and the feminists and on and on. That won't change. But if one opens ones mind and sees PAST the crap, there is the possibility to share ideas and perhaps find a way to help change things fot the betterment of all of us in Sweden.
Oh there definetly is hate on both sides, no question. And I agree that racism is born from fear and ignorance. Education and peace is a start. Then we have to talk about it, on both sides. But as you say it won`t ever go away, hopefully we can contain it.
The key, which I think you touched upon, is that we need to show that it can be found on both sides. That`s when people will see that we have alot in common and aren`t different. Even when it comes to predjudice. Hopefully then we can, as you say, see past it and hit the real issue.
Things like this case won`t help that disussion.
P.S I can`t help to be amazed that the positive things you, even after being married to a swedish man, take with you from Sweden is its cleansiness and high maintenance of buildings and infrastructure found here. Wow, I guess.
And Swedish journalists and foreign correspondents, too. They love it.
20:04 August 7, 2011 by Migga
Where do you get your facts? Must be in the Jurasic Park Encyclopedia. Eight million Swedes in the world. Sweden is not the main racist country in the world, but Migga, I (I do not know about you) live in Sweden. I do not care how racist they are in the States or in Germany or in France. That is irrelevant for me. I live in Sweden.
21:05 August 7, 2011 by jacquelinee
It is not hate against immigrants jacquelineee. Do not generalize. It is dissatisfaction against certain groups of immigrants that are destroying this magnificent country, step by step.
You must understand. I am not sure if you are Swedish or another nationality, but, as I said, I come from Canada. It is a very beautiful and very BIG country. A good country with many positive things. However, when I came to Sweden I was amazed how well kept it was. In Canada, there are good areas of the cities and bad areas. So often in tthe "bad areas" the buildinngs are streets are a disgrace, run down, poorly maintained, broken, dirty etc. Not everywhere, but in places. Here even the areas thought about as the bad areas are clean, cared for ...lovely actually. I have driven on roads in Nothern Saskatchewan that looked as if the concrete had been laid over a mine field it was so full of holes and cracks. You will not find that here. When you use a public bathroom in Canada or the rest room in a gas station you often have to hold your nose and pray as you pee that you don't catch something. Here they are very clean.
You must understand these things make an impact. In places in Canada there are people begging and sleeping on the streets A LOT of them. You will not see that so much here.
My husband is a lovely man, as I said. He is not my first husband. My first husband was Canadian and he was NOT a lovely man. That does not mean all Canadian men are pri-cks or that all Swedish men are lovely. Just the luck I have had.
Sweden has it's shortcomings and its pinnacles as does Canada. I was just stating some of the ways the Swedish government needs to be praised for the way they keep this country so beautiful.
I understand what you meant. You recognize yourself as a French Canadian or Irish Canadian and this means that you respect both your origin and heritages and also the society which you raised or learned from.This is nice and every non-racist people support this kind of ideology.
But the problem or the main challenge is the sick minds and as you call them "near sighted" people who think that you have occupied their living space,took their jobs or threatening their future! Unfortunately, these narrow minded people are not little around us!
I do agree that Sweden is a model country in many aspects but you know what these sick people thinks about most of foreigners! They do not recognize them in a nice way that you recognized yourself! You are honor of yourself but they use these words in a racist style in order to make a distance between themselves and you! Yeah...It's sad to say but it's the fact in most parts of Europe!
Thanks to the current anti-racism laws, they mostly fear to express these ideas in public but it exists in their sick minds and they hide it and maybe "The Local" is a good place for them to get rid of! However,the future belongs to smart ones!
I don't think the tram driver should get fined, since he didn't break any laws. But losing his job is quite fair, especially since the situation painted västtrafik in such a poor light. As for the bad customers, the teenagers in this case, they walk away just like any other bad customesr with poor manners, maybe with an even more confirmed stereotype on teenagers or their race.
It seems you are quite new to here or not follow most of the posts! How you are saying 2 or 3! Just put more time and check out some other posts here.You will hug more and more!
underskyofsweden is completely right. You just do not read properly or maybe something is wrong in your understanding of the English language.
Where did you get that "Most posters are immigrants from the UK, US, NZ, Oz and Canada."?
You sound like nem & isis. You are twisting and inventing whatever comes into your mind.
"lappjavel" but no one seems to go to prison for that huh?