Sweden presents plan to combat extremism

Strange, control over right wing groups, but the religious nuts & the looney left are allowed to run riot!!!!

Nice! Good to see Säpo dose not exaggerate the situation.

Hysterical. Pretend it's a lone wolf, once a decade nutjob like Breivik that's the problem when you have tens of thousands of Islamic extremists in the country and dozens of attacks being stopped across Europe every year.

Right here on the Local you can see them openly defending terrorists, gang rapists and murderers in the name of their beliefs.

But that's not extremism. That's "diversity", I guess.

That's "diversity", I guess.

You are 100% right, dude.

No mention of a grown up debate to give Swedes an opportunity to discuss the many changes multi culturalism has bought to their country. Shame that! Perhaps if there were more debate in the middle, people would not turn to extremism to get themselves heard. Listen to the people! Heaven forbid.

Nonsense. This is not a plan to combat extremism. It is a plan to use some isolated acts of violence to establish government sponsored programs to combat views that are opposed to those of the government.

Notice how the government announcement casually wanders back and forth between "violent extremism" and "what types of extremism tends to lead to violence." As if there is no difference between violent political movements and those that they government has decided "tend to lead to violence." They are deliberately blurring the issue. They are establishing a program to combat extremism without defining extremism. It isn't that complicated. Why don't you begin by defining what extremism is? It is not complicated; it is really very simple. Groups or individuals are extremists if they engage in violence or advocate the use of violence in an attempt to advance their views. For the government to say that some views "tend to lead to violence" would give the government a broad and vague license to combat any view that they find offensive.

"According to Ohlsson, Taimour Abdulwahab's attempt to blow himself up on a Stockholm street last year has showed Swedes how vulnerable the country's open society is." How does a single unsuccessful attempt by one individual show that Sweden is vulnerable." Vulnerable to what? Are they trying to imply that every act of violence in Sweden represents a danger to all of Sweden?

"The three extremist environments on which the plan's efforts will be concentrated are the white power movement, the autonomous left, and violent Islamism." That is strange. Why is it that of the three groups that are being targeted, the word "violent" is used to describe only one? Is it that only violent Islam is perceived as a threat, but any white power or autonomous left movement is a danger, irrespective of whether they advocate violence?

"According to Ohlsson, it is the prevention of extremism which is central in the plan, to work with schools, to educate teachers and key groups in civil society. The government also wants to strengthen international cooperation and create a better support network for those who wish to leave extremist groups." OK. So just to be clear. The government intends to use taxpayer money to indoctrinate children against any political views that the government finds offensive or "dangerous." I submit that the government's plans use its power (and taxpayer money) against nonviolent political opposition poses a much greater threat to Swedes who value their liberty than any of the groups mentioned.

They should have asked the Swedish population first if they wanted all these immigrants in their country - you can't force a massive problem on your population and then wonder why you have extremism - And the sad part is they keep letting more in - more criminals, more rapists, more murder's...........

Wasn't it extremist to adopt and enforce multiculturism and political correctness?

"But that's not extremism. That's "diversity", I guess."

"Cultural enrichment," lol. We need a bunch of Muslims to light up our lives as our existence was so bereft previously.

;)

@Global Macro

" Are they trying to imply that every act of violence in Sweden represents a danger to all of Sweden? "

My friend, I am really having hard time to take you seriously after I read this line in your comment :(

The real danger lies in the fact that 'extreme' is a relative term. Moderation and extremism are the same thing, seen from different sides of the fence. You can't control one without controlling the other at the same time.

What should be the focus of control is not the right/left aspect, but the violence. Any dogma/doctrine/policy that does not respect the human and civil rights of other individuals or groups should not be tolerated.

@ Carolina Correia

Agree totally.

My analysis of news from Europe, The UK, and North America concludes that governments in the West are intentionally flooding their lands with muslims as a means to create social unrest that can justify a larger, more intrusive government to more thoroughly control the lives of the people and create a powerful police state to prevent any retribution by the people.

My analysis of news from Europe, The UK, and North America concludes that governments in the West are intentionally flooding their lands with muslims as a means to create social unrest that can justify a larger, more intrusive government to more thoroughly control the lives of the people and create a powerful police state to prevent any retribution by the people. "

So Europe, N.A., U.K and all the Western countries have all agreed to a vast conspiracy to create a powerful police state by flooding their lands with muslims, and there was not even one of them who balked at the idea and took it upon themselves to expose this plot?

LMAO

I also agree with Carolina Correia (post #11). No brainer.

How is it that NOT importing the the thousands of hordes of unwashed masses (who never belonged in Sweden in the first place) is not an option????

Put a tourniquet on the hemorrhaging first and foremost. Today. Put THAT on the table for consideration.

@Carolina Correia,muhahaMAD,jvtx3232

Some immigrants have more class and intelligence than you people ever thought of .

"Instead of making it a British home with British customs the migrant Muslims turn it into a satellite of their homeland" That's EXACTLY what the Europeans did when they arrived in Americas and Australia, didn't they? Or did you fail grade 6 history? My grandchildren seem to be very well aware that the Aboriginals were there FIRST and europeans IMMIGRATED AFTER.

Lets stop talking about integration, lets talk about living together, acting together, contributing together, for the sake of our common future

What the Muslims should do is to refuse the victim mentality, its not the question to be liked or not to be liked, its a question of rights, its a question of understanding, its a question of self-respect.

Teaching Islam is not only about learning the basic duties such as praying. It is teaching the children manners, as well as cleanliness. A nursery shall provide an Islamic environment and will instil in them good morals, which will help them become good Muslims. A good Muslim is a good citizen, a gentle and caring member of society.

Islam places huge emphasis on gaining knowledge. Education is also crucial to integration and social cohesion in a diverse multicultural and multi-faith society.

I see no reason why immigration and tolerance for other cultures is a threat to the welfare state. Immigrants keep some of our most important public services running and will likely be required even more so in the decades ahead in order to care for European's ageing population. There are certainly legitimate concerns among the trade union movement about social dumping bringing down wages but that could quite easily be solved by tightening labour regulations and making sure all workers have the same pay and working conditions regardless of where they come from. I think the main threat is the EU (together with global financial institutions like the IMF). Why not challenge economic globalisation and the powerful corporate interests it serves instead of putting the blame on migrants from the third world who are either fleeing persecution or simply looking for a better life for themselves and their families?

IA

http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Stop letting in tons of migrants from all over the world.

No crazy Muslims. No angry Nazis.

Problem solved.

I guess to be fair, if you want to stop immigrants from coming here, then you should stop native Swedes from immigrating to somewhere else.

I wonder how many of the posters are actually from Sweden or are living in Sweden... seems like this thread has been hijacked by voices that have no real place here.

@Iftikhar_Ahmad

Yes, because the Muslim countries is clearly filled with so much social cohesion, peace and productivity.

Muslims giving advice on running a civilized society is like a chimp giving piano lessons.

Well, that may be a fair point, Rap43. I am not Swedish. But I don't see my commenting as "hijacking." I commented because the debate strikes a chord with me. It is a debate that is raging in many Western countries. I am watching from a distance and with sadness as many Western countries are self-destructing. One of the ways they are doing this is by embracing what I believe is an entirely fallacious notion of so-called "multiculturalism." It is sheer nonsense. There are many objective standards by which the culture of western Europe (and a few other places) is objectively far superior. To pretend that this is not so and that all countries are essentially equal and worthy of equal respect is very foolish.

But I digress. My first and principal point was to express concern about the apparent efforts of the government to target particular nonviolent groups because they disagree (perhaps strongly) with the government or politically correct opinions. It is others in the thread who focused on a particular controversial culture.

Yeah, I wanna see how they combat extremism, they are like gonna spend 4 million good american bucks in coloring books with bamse and mumin troll and whatever they can ocurr that explains that is wrong!!! And then another 2 million bucks in a never ending tour with Di Leva and Ledin sending all them good vibes and stuff while he sings and then OH yes Timbuktu is gonna adress to the radical brothers who live among us telling them to get the anger into something positive

Woo hoooooo!!!

I have no idea who is gonna dare to talk to the feminists though????

Zooeden, I don't understand what you said, but I think I agree with you.

@godnatt

I saw a chimp play the piano once. Oh wait, that was Billy Joel.

And of those 62 millions they will spend 1200 kronor on research about left-wing extremism and 560 kronor to help islamists become less radical and the rest to fight Swedendemocrats and others who oppose multiculturalism/islam.

zooeden, I believe a coalition of imams will talk to the feminists. They will all sit down as equals, hold hands, tap a keg of Tuborg, dine on pork products while hammering out a solution to bring peace upon the Earth and its inhabitants.

The problem here is that a large group of people who refuse to assimilate in the smallest measure expect Sweden to take care of them and respect their culture that no one else cares about respecting in the first place. Sweden is the country of the Swedish and they are not morally wrong for not wanting those people in their country!

I happen to be a strong believer in the idea that if immigrants in Sweden don't like something they know where the door is because they so presumptuously came through it!

Has anybody on this thread actually read the Koran? Its the polar opposite of modern democracy (i.e. freedom to choose religion, gender equality, etc). The difference between "extremism" and "moderate" (lol) Islam is that only the "extremists" come close to taking the teachings of the Koran literally. Multiculturalism isn't the enemy of the west. Islam is. And always has been. Since Mohammed lost his marbles 1000 years ago.

" Has anybody on this thread actually read the Koran? Its the polar opposite of modern democracy (i.e. freedom to choose religion, gender equality, etc). The difference between "extremism" and "moderate" (lol) Islam is that only the "extremists" come close to taking the teachings of the Koran literally. Multiculturalism isn't the enemy of the west. Islam is. And always has been. Since Mohammed lost his marbles 1000 years ago. "

An undeniable reality, that is based on simple verifiable facts.

Is there such a thing as a "moderate muslim", and if so, what is it?

We should be really thankful of having such a sophisticated government , otherwise Sweden was the first country in Europe which could lose democracy.

Strange, left-wing totalitarians have killed tens of millions of people during the 20th Century but there have been no government programs to combat leftists. The little bald dude needs to get a clue.

@bcterry

The moderate Muslim votes for the death penalty for adulterous women and converters by firing squad.

The conservative Muslim votes for stoning.

I am not really worry about Muslim extremists as i am sure that they can not do anything about our democracy. Even so, I am so worry about non Muslim extremist and and extremist like feminists . I really see them a treat for any democracy in the world. They can easily work and achieve their demand without attracting much attention.

Rouzi, I wouldn't be so sure in your insouciance about Muslim extremists. One distinction between them and the feminists is that the feminists are not reproducing in record numbers. Imagine, if you would, living in a country that practices Sharia law. That is exactly what they intend. And by changing demographics they intend to turn your democracy against you. That may not trouble you, but it is not very attractive to me. Look at what's going on in France, U.K., the Netherlands... -- everywhere they are found in large numbers. What makes you think that cannot happen in Sweden?

Spending money that was given to the government by the people and is now used to stop the people's right to free speech seems quite "Orwellian" to me!

Are we witnessing the Swedish version of Big Brother or a re-birth of National Socialism?

@Ifitkhar_Ahmed The reality of Muslim immigration in the UK is that Islamists have tried to set up Muslim only areas of London such as Tower Hamlets. Sexual segragation of swimming pools, honour killings on the increase, sexual attacks on non-Muslim girls, etc.

Islamists decry the West as being immoral and cite sex abuse in the church when Muslim men in the North of England have been overrepresented in paedophilia and forced sexual slavery of girls as pimps.

Islam is not a religion - it is a way of life - but a way of life as it was 1,400 years ago.

Muslims don't want to hear that but now some who have left Islam and formed the burgeoing Council of Ex-Muslims who are the most vociferous opponents of Islamists.

The most worrying thing of all so-called 'moderate' Muslims do nothing.

I don't think you quite see Islam as we Christians, atheists, etc do.

@Global Macro In my opinion Muslim are mostly breaking laws and rules. even extremists may ultimately blow themselves up and kill few people. Such an action although is not acceptable , it even can not shake the foundation of democracy. About reproducing, i believe if not for the first generation but for second generation it happens to be melted in western culture particularly when their education enhanced and their economy improved. The penetration of Muslim to the system in a way to be able to affect democracy is not likely or at least hard to believe because our authorities always has a sharp eyes on their actions. Meanwhile, they are given some right such as practicing their religion based on democracy. Actually we treat them similar to other people in west and it is the way that should be because we are speaking about democracy and freedom. What we see today is mainly fight between ordinary people who can not tolerate opposite opinions. In other word, neither sides are really act democratic and with open minds. somebody dose a crime somebody else see the foundation of democracy in danger because of his crime. In fact a faulty cycle that some has trapped inside. But regarding feminists it has occurred in fact in a way that they have the ability of forcing rules and laws which are absolutely against freedom and to some extent cause gender discrimination.

@DAVID T And the sad part is they keep letting more in - more criminals, more rapists, more murder's...........#

No one will ever accuse libtards of bringing anything other than sadness

Libtards default setting of incoherent, hypocritical and downward spiraling all-destructive logic is the only consistant behaviour they exibit; but basically it's because they feel more at home amongst their own rapacious, abusive and criminal kind and the corruption they thrive on cannot hope to flourish so well without eliminating the existing moral basis and surrounding themselves with their like minded companions

Imagine Sweden virtually free of crime. Imagine women being able to walk home at night with no worries. Imagine the parks clean, with families enjoying them. Imagine Sweden without Immigrants and the first three above become reality, not imagination.

Allowing the Immigrants to breed malignantly is cultural suicide. These people plan to take over, they advertise that they are going to take over, Their actions indicate that they plan to take over.

Why do all the good people of Sweden just sit and watch it happen?.

Rouzi, I have two reservations about your position:

1. Where has the problem been resolved in the manner that you have described? Nowhere. There is not a single example where the problem has become less over time. If anything, the threats that Islam presents to western countries have actually become greater from one generation to the next.

2. You have too much confidence in the ability of the government to respond to threats. Governments have been found themselves incapable of addressing the problem. Governments are bureaucrats and by their nature they are not leaders; they are incompetent. (I am not speaking of just the Swedish government. All governments.) If this problem is allowed to fester, why would Sweden be more successful than France or the U.K. or the Netherlands? They won't be.

And to exacerbate the problem the EU is insisting that any discussion of this matter is forbidden. You know that several of the comments that have been written in this thread would be illegal as "hate crimes" in several European countries. I believe that the views that have been expressed in this thread are reasonable and can be defended based on empirical evidence. But you know that many Western countries are attempting to suppress even a discussion of this topic.

Which is where my comments began above. The threat to suppress free expression of opinions is the greatest threat because it is at the center of all attempts to take away all of our liberties.

@Global Macro

1. Do you know how long it is that Europe accepts mass immigration in this from? As far as I know it should be something around 30-35 years particularly about Muslim. Therefore, we hardly can see the second generation of immigrants here. Even about the first generation who was born here it is possible to see significant difference comparing their parents. If the difference did not exist you could never see something like honor killing. My observation is not enough match with yours to accept that the problem is getting greater because of immigration alone. What you are speaking about is the increased problem due to new conflicts in the world, for example Iraq war and the new wave of immigration that should be adopted to the system. Additionally, part of the problem appears because extremism increased from our sides as well, which I tell you later how.

2.I can accept that governments in some cases act wrongly and in fact many of our today problem comes from their mal-decisions in the past. but in this case I am agree with their approach to the issue.Governments not only should defend the values but also they have to follow the values. Meanwhile they have the duty of keeping society secure. The foundation of democracy is based of respecting other opinions and it means that we are allowed to reject each other opinions with reasoning. But if instead of reasoning we use offending insulting and consequently hurting others emotions, indeed we are acting against democracy. Today, there are people who want freedom without any limitation,( Roman Philosophy kind of). When we do not consider any limitation for something it means it is open to extreme. Consequently people who follow this ideology become extremists act against democracy , although they themselves can not see it. Unfortunately these type of extremism is increasing in the Europe and as any action follows with an reaction, it can increase extremism from opposite side as well. I have to say I absolutely see government act sophisticated in this case. enmity and force can never solve a problem rather make it more sever. What governments are doing is absolutely necessary for the continuation of democracy and freedom. One may see it as a strategic roll back and rearrangement.

Rouzi:

1. Why would you want to subject Sweden to such a social experiment? The outcome has never produced a result like you are hoping for. Of the countries where there are presently violent conflicts raging, the great majority involve clashes with Muslims: Afghanistan, Bosnia, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, Indonesia, Kashmir, Kosovom, Kurdistan, Macedonia, the Middle East, Nigeria, Pakistan, the Philippines, Russia, Serbia, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Bangladesh, Tajikistan. Furthermore, where has assimilation worked? Is Sweden superior to the U.K., to France, to the Netherlands? Why would you suppose that assimilation will work in Sweden when it has never worked anywhere else? The don't want to assimilate. They have no intention of assimilation. They hate the West. They immigrate because the countries where they came from are failed states. That is the only reason. This is not a test of reason; it is a test of wills. And apparently the Swedish government does not have the will. How much harm must they cause before you accept that you are wrong?

2. I could not disagree with you more on your point that if I hurt someone's feelings, I am acting against democracy. The essence of freedom of speech is the right to say things that are controversial. If I have freedom of speech to say only things that do not offend others, then I have no freedom of speech at all.

3. It has already begun. The governments of Western Europe are already beginning to adopt appeasement as a solution. And the policy of the Swedish government is a thinly veiled (pardon the pun) of suppressing certain opinions that the government fears will offend the Muslims.

4. This is related to another article that appears in this issue. "Far Right demo creates Chaos in Stockholm." The article states, "Eggs, bottles and firecrackers come flying through the air as hundreds of counter protesters have come to interrupt the right wing protests." This is Orwellian. How is it that the people who were violently targeted are the extremists and those who threw the bottles are not?

5. Finally, Rouzi, I have what I think is a very important question. In your comment you said, "governments not only should defend the values but also they have to follow the values." What values are you referring to? What values should be important to Swedes? What values should be defended?

"What values should be defended? "

Ask any muslim, ONLY islamic values,under islamic rule.

That is exactly the end game in all this mass immigration into the west.

Muhhamad, "war is deceit.

Qur'an 5:41 "Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

It's pretty simple, Sweden is the country with best gender equality in the world. Islam preaches the exact polar opposite. The two do not go together.

The only way to combat this problem (forget far right extremism) is to spread truthful and accurate information about Islam, Mohammed and the Quran and continue to fight for the things that we, in the West, believe in. Like gender equality, freedom of speech, religious freedom, and gay rights.

To everyone who cares who reads this, I implore you to get hold of a copy of the Quran with English translation, then read all the books by Robert Spencer on this subject. Starting with "The politically incorrect guide to Islam". Real eye opener.

"To everyone who cares who reads this, I implore you to get hold of a copy of the Quran with English translation, then read all the books by Robert Spencer on this subject. Starting with "The politically incorrect guide to Islam". Real eye opener."

Thank you for that.

There is a 4 part speech by Spencer on you tube where he talks about it if you care to have a look.

"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam - Robert Spencer (1 of 4) "

It is not a social experiment rather it is reality. What do y want to do? Do you want to send all back to their home countries and plant the seeds of hate? Let us imagine we did it. What we should do with the without border Europe? Let's imagine we throw all out of Europe? Afterward, how we should explain democracy and human right? These are the values that I spoke about. The values that not only should be defended but also must be followed.

Who are they? Firstly, not all immigrants here are Muslim. Secondly, Not all immigrants hate. 1000 from a million do not make a result statically significant. There are some among these immigrant who criticize/hate West base on freedom right. Have you ever asked yourself why? Let me quote a small part of Stephen Kinzer's speech, the author of Overthrow, America's century of regime change from Hawaii to Iraq, in the conference Us policy & civil liberties, Future of freedom foundation about one of the countries that we here much about it these days, Iran. I think many people today don't even understand that Iran was ever a democracy...If we had manage to keep our hands off Iran, we might've had a thriven democracy in the heart of Muslim Middle East all these fifty years and I can hardly warp my mind around how different a world would look if we only had manage to keep our hands off. " Yes, Great Britain is not really great. it is a small country relatively. but it is called Great Britain because it had colonies from Africa to India. Surprisingly, It was not the only one. Afghanistan was the battle field of West and American against communists, a war that caused them to goes 100 years back. Pakistan was the place of training of those our politician trained to fight against communist, which later became terrorist and started attacking us and so no. If they hate us it is because we prevent them from progressing. They did not fail, we forced them to fail. Anyway, if you still want to throw all of them out,do that no objection from my side. I am not gonna to plant the new seeds of hate. a hate that will lead to start of a big war and lots of casualty. we did something wrong in the past and we have to take responsibility.

I am completely disagree with stopping people from telling their opinions . Besides, I do not support any type of offending from any side. I even do not support suppressing racism. Ignoring those people who we do not like their opinions is unfortunately a cultural habit in many part of Europe. We do not fight with each others but we ignore. In fact, instead of solving the question we delete it and claim it solved. I am telling to express your opinion without offending and if unintentionally you offended, be ready to apologize. "Get lost" and "please leave me alone" both will tell your requests, Even so; as actions, they can cause two completely different reactions. . Expressing without insulting is not limitation but it is wisdom.

"I am telling to express your opinion without offending and if unintentionally you offended, be ready to apologize. "Get lost" and "please leave me alone" both will tell your requests, Even so; as actions, they can cause two completely different reactions."

When undeniable, truthful, verifiable facts are presented on islam, and their self proclaimed "prophet", it insults muslims, and as far as i'm concerned, that's tough, because their bigoted, intolerant, violent, subjugating fascist ideology, insults every fiber of my being.

You may have no problem in sitting back and taking it, but don't expect the rest of us to take it sitting down.

"Expressing without insulting is not limitation but it is wisdom."

Speaking TRUTH is wisdom, especially on critical life and death issues, no matter who is offended.

@bcterry

Thanks for your comment!

You are absolutely free to express your opinion in favor or agianst anything in the world and you do not need to offend. We do want our criticism/ opinion be accepted or in the other world be constructive. An offending and noncunstrative critisism is fastly rejected regardless of its authenicity. And this is not based on your personal desires rather it is the reality of the word that people react in this form to a nonconstructive criticism. When it is always possible to express an opinion without insulting why we should use the offended form. Dose it mean we are so angry that simply forget our own principles such as democracy and respecting others opinions?

Even if sombody insult me I am not going to return his/her insult becuase I do not want to be one simillar to the offender.Additionally, I must show that I am not only speak about values such as demoracy but also follow them in practice. Furthermore, we always need to have in mind that those things which are not important for us or maybe we even do not like them can be of vital importance for others. Then, I recommend before any type of discussion, collect some information about the person that you are going to negotiate with, if you want your negotiation be constructive.

"I am sometimes a fox and sometimes a lion. The whole secret of government lies in knowing when to be the one or the other."

Napoleon Bonaparte

If you always be in attack or deffend position you in fact has signed your losing contract.

There is no need to take insult. The situation is very clear in this case. If you did not insult anybody but the person is still insulting you, you can ask him/her peacefully to stop it. If the person did not stop, there is no more need to countinue your discussion with such a person at all. Truley, truth is not for every man but only for those who seek it and has the capicity of accepting it.

Sometimes speaking about truth will send you under thousands kilo soil. realizing when , wehre, how and with who expressing your opinion to take the most effective result is the wisdom. Somethimes even silent is wisdom. I strongly recommend to try being in touch with the reality of the world to have a better interpretation from situations.

"Even if sombody insult me I am not going to return his/her insult becuase I do not want to be one simillar to the offender."

I could care less if an individual insults me, it means nothing, i was speaking only about being insulted by the ideology, and i can't be bothered to get involved on a personal level, i'm only interested in the facts.

"I strongly recommend to try being in touch with the reality of the world to have a better interpretation from situations."

Thanks for your advice, but what do you think i've been talking about, fantasy?

What specific facts of that "world reality" pertaining to islam are you referring to?

Well, actually Ideology can not itself insult anybody. This is people who can insult you. If you want to interpret in this way that I am insulted by an ideology, everybody in the world can claim being insulted by one of the ideologies which exist in the world. At the same way, you can say science is dangerous because it can harm me while Science itself has no power and it is people who can use it against you.

Islam is an ideology and like all other ideologies in the world has some positive points and some negative points (strength and weakness). As far as I know, even many of things that Muslim are practicing is not directly written in their holy book and it is only interpretation of their religious features. I amazingly understood that many of Muslim even did not read the book completely. Do not forget that Islam is not only religion but also a governmental system. It means the existence of some governments is depended on it and they never stop fooling people .for their own sake. As it was for Christianity in the past , was and is for Jewidism and as it was for communism. The conflict that you see in the world in not directly related to the Islam but its interference with politic and every day life. Additionally, from our side it was used as a tool for fooling people for supporting the suppression and attack to the Middle East for personal and national benefits. For example, if you study about the terrorism in Middle east, you clearly understand that the matter is not related to Islam at all. In fact, fight is very personal and about power and promises that broke and caused enmity. For long time the terrorist groups in the region was attracting their forces with fooling them and giving wrong information such as West wants Islam to be destroyed. From our side, the situation was in this shape that after every mistake and a terrorist attack we was starting to criticize Islam and insulting their religion instead of focusing on main issue (some has been designed even) and consequently providing terrorist with enough and fresh material to use for attracting new forces. who was taking advantage Meanwhile ?For example, The weapon producers and dealers and if you think more you can find others who got advantages of the situation. ;) . Now see, please try to do not enter the game. This is not the game that we really like to play . what I said was only a very very very small part of reality.

"Well, actually Ideology can not itself insult anybody."

Really?

What is written in the koran is an ideology, undeniable.

Read this, and then tell me that an ideology cannot insult anyone.

Google,

"Intolerance in the quran"

Nazism was an ideology, you do not find it offensive and insulting?

You say ideology is insulting me. It is like to say this book is insulting me. Well the book is not insulting you. in fact the author of book is insulting you. :)

The problem is us who want to force other to accept our ideology otherwise you can be believe in whatever you want. As long as do not have any intention to hurt me, it is OK. I told you Islam as any other ideology has negative points as well.

Now you can go and read torah see if it is much different from Koran. Or read different version of Bible and see how it is. Or you can instead of intolerance in quran search tolerance in quran and see how much evidence exists for it .

The problem is that all of these books are full of incoherence and paradox. Therefore, whatever you search for it you will find. in one sentence the word " disbeliever" is written. There are several interpretations that who these disbelievers are really. It is not as simple as you say to conclude every thing.

Your attempt at equivalence between islam and other religions simply does not hold water, not even close.

Simple present day facts on the ground bear this out, and HERE is the blatant factual reality that for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.

Could it be your a muslim?

"31 Of World's Wars Are Islamic Related'

Christianity is about following the words of Jesus, love your neighbor, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, forgive, bless those who curse you, go the 2nd mile, turn the other cheek, serve rather than be served.

I'm an atheist, i grew up in a small Christian fundamentalist town, and the only thing i was ever threatened with was the love of jesus.

A man cannot become an atheist merely by wishing it.

What i want is the total ignoring of ideologies including religions. Today world is the world of science and there is no more place for ideology to use in the world management.

As far as i know , the appearance of any new ideology caused a new conflict and sometimes war because human being naturally has a tendency to avoid change and acceptance of new beliefs. In case of religion, the appearance of Christianity led to conflict between Judaism and Christianity( refer you to the history of early Christianity) and the appearance of Islam led to conflict among all three. in my previous comment, I clearly state that many of theses conflicts are not related to religion. Religion is only a tool for fooling people.

If you be enough patient what happened for Christianity will happen for Islam and it s going to pay its way out of people life. Reading history and learning from it is a good thing practically :)

concerning you, i have theses recommendations.

1. Do not be much dependent to the information that you find in the internet. Use authentic books, mainly text book and reference books.

2. Do not forget that when you are searching for information search for both sides. because clearly you always find those things that you search for. If you search for positive thing you only find positive things. Example, If you want to have better information about obesity. Search : what can cause Obesity as well as what do not cause obesity?

3. Do not judge. More than 90% of cases, ,our information is not enough to make us capable of judging correctly.

4. Always put your focus on message instead of messenger, if you want to have the best achievement.

4. "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. Matthew 5:38-48

I am not completely agree with the last sentence because if it happen for me I do not stand there more to receive the second slap :). But anyway, it may help you to do not throw yourself in a faulty cycle.

Comment: "A man cannot become an atheist merely by wishing it."

This makes no sense.

I should clarify, an agnostic with atheist beliefs.

"If you be enough patient what happened for Christianity will happen for Islam and it s going to pay its way out of people life. Reading history and learning from it is a good thing practically :)"

I'm fully aware of the history, and i'm also aware that you cannot give me one example of an islamic state where there is any movement towards islamic reformation.

In contrast, i could give you a long list of present day islamic policies that are the polar opposite of what you are suggesting.

Your recommendations for me are irrelevant, and they have no bearing on the facts i have presented.

Like i said before, i'm not interested in getting personal, so i will refrain from responding in kind.

I'm a senior, and my observations and conclusions are based on verifiable documented facts, and nothing more.

OK, Thanks!

1. I will follow my recommendations my self to avoid any faulty cycle.

2. I did not say that your information are wrong or are not based on fact, I told they are not sufficient to make you capable of judging. I cannot remember if I said, for example, what you told about Koran is wrong.

3.You cannot see any Islamic reformation because it is ridicules to reform a religion. Islam should not be reform rather it should be put aside. A process that need time and cannot be achieved by force, treat or so on. Any mal-decision in this case can make the process longer. Focusing on Islam, Koran, ... will make every thing worse and the process longer. Here is the faulty cycle. Putting forward a wrong question will cause having wrong answer.

1. I will follow my recommendations my self to avoid any faulty cycle."

O.K.

I believe islam should be put aside as well, but that could literally take hundreds of years.

3.You cannot see any Islamic reformation because it is ridicules to reform a religion. Islam should not be reform rather it should be put aside. A process that need time and cannot be achieved by force, treat or so on. Any mal-decision in this case can make the process longer. Focusing on Islam, Koran, ... will make every thing worse and the process longer"

I disagree, we have to be firm, and straight forward when dealing with islam.

Appeasement does not work with muslims, they look upon it as a sign of weakness, a soft spot that they can use to their advantage.

It only bolsters their resolve.

There are many examples of just that.

There is no compromise in islam whatsoever.

"Here is the faulty cycle. Putting forward a wrong question will cause having wrong answer. "

Putting forward direct, specific questions about the factual truth is never the wrong question, it's the only way to expose the truth.

IMO, the faulty cycle is walking on eggshells, and trying to appease an ideology that only uses it to further their fascist ideology.

I do not know what you mean by being firm and straight forward when dealing with Islam. Then first tell me what do you want to do exactly, then I see i am in favor or against.

Please tell me what is your solution that can shorten a process that may literally take hundreds of years.

2. The wrong question is to focus on Islam. Islam is a religion with followers. A religion or any ideology without followers becomes part of history. Then, turn your focus from Islam to followers. And your first job would be to see why people attend religion and why they feel a need for that. As you find the answer, you learn how to deal with religious people.

3. Do you want to solve a problem or you are just worry about how people may think about you? What dose it mean appeasement dose not work because they look upon it as a sign of weakness? They can see it any sign that they want. Their look will not change reality. If somebody call me stupid, I am not going to be stupid.

1 Let them know in no uncertain terms that they are to get no special consideration or exemption from the laws and rules of the host country, i.e. sharia law etc.

" Please tell me what is your solution that can shorten a process that may literally take hundreds of years."

Don't have one, what is yours?

"And your first job would be to see why people attend religion and why they feel a need for that. As you find the answer, you learn how to deal with religious people. "

Most of the reason comes from forced childhood indoctrination through brainwashing, which I.M.O., is a crime against humanity.

You are taking away their freedom of thought, which is a basic right of all of us.

In the case of islam, the majority of muslims, (look it up), believe in murdering apostates, that sickness alone shows how insidious islam is.

"3. Do you want to solve a problem or you are just worry about how people may think about you?"

Again, this has nothing to do with me, and other than those who know me, what they think is irrelevant.

"What dose it mean appeasement dose not work because they look upon it as a sign of weakness?"

When you open the door a crack and give them special religious considerations in an effort to appease, (: pacify, conciliate; especially : to buy off (an aggressor) by concessions usually at the sacrifice of principles ), here is what happens.

Facts, present day.

"Sharia Europe"

Agree that they should follow the laws of countries which they live inside. And strongly for a more strict immigration policy. Any firm decision is acceptable.

No need for conflict and harsh act. Situation is clear, either they act according to laws or they choose another place to live.

Sharia Law seems really impossible to fully pay its way into our laws.I understand in some cases it could be used. I mainly see it as a natural weakness of any system. If part of laws is open to take advantage, as seen in many systems, this part should be revised. Even so, first we need a hacker to hack it and show us the weakness. To remind that Sharia Law itself include in plan of fighting against extremism.

On the other hand,the given right of practicing all religions to followers is based on our democracy It is no more appeasement.

Brainwashing : happens in all societies and it is not necessarily by force. Accepting a culture and behaviors totally without thinking about it , is also a type of unintentionally brainwashing . we follow what our parents and society are doing. In fact, it is how that our personalities are formed. ( I understand that the world brain washing has a negative charge stereotypically). If your parents are totally religious the consequence is most often religious children unless the majority of a society is not religious, (it may even happen in this case). Not surprising that people who say that they are not religious at all and they do not follow the religion rules, may still have some thoughts that is under religion influence.Attract your attention to the fact that even if you make them completely separate from religion, they still may follow some part of that because it is inside their cultures and therefore their personalities as well.

1.Clearly state that we are not against Islam, we are supporting own values &they have to respect values if they want to live here. ( In practice supporting our values would be against Islam but as I said you previously, telling get lost and ..cause two different reactions)

2. Reducing conflict in the Muslim countries. In most cases we support conflicts. Example, Iraq war. Providing rebels with our-made weapons. rebels do not have weapon producing companies.

3. improved economy. Most seen cases people with better economy are less religious and has a tendency to separate from religion. we acted in contrast since now. It seems oil plays an important role.

4. Avoiding faulty cycle. Insulting &.. all cause a person who even knows he is wrong to adhere to his own thoughts based on grudge. Unfortunately, we act really wrongly since now. I saw immigrants here from any types who have the delusion of being discriminated and insulted. They actually become negative as much as interpret every thing as discrimination. Theses misconceptions has led to huge problem It is like a domino game as well it move forward very fast from one person to another.

Agree that they should follow the laws of countries which they live inside. And strongly for a more strict immigration policy. Any firm decision is acceptable.

No need for conflict and harsh act. Situation is clear, either they act according to laws or they choose another place to live."

Agreed.

"Sharia Law seems really impossible to fully pay its way into our laws."

The links i gave you paint a different picture.

"Brainwashing : happens in all societies and it is not necessarily by force."

In the case of islam you relent, or else.

I understand the other points you are making, but the problem is that there are absolutely no facts to support any progress whatsoever in that regard.

As i said before, the facts clearly point to just the opposite.

Islam has been static for over1400 years, with no change in sight.

" I saw immigrants here from any types who have the delusion of being discriminated and insulted. They actually become negative as much as interpret every thing as discrimination. Theses misconceptions has led to huge problem It is like a domino game as well it move forward very fast from one person to another. "

I have met a few muslim immigrants, and i treat them no different than anyone else.

Their religion never comes up in conversation.

They are treated the same way by others that i know, so if they feel discriminated against, they certainly do not show it.

If they integrate on the basis of simple equality, they will be accepted and welcomed the same as all other immigrants.

I live in one of the most diverse cities, where there are virtually citizens from every corner of the planet, and we all get along just fine, and no one gives it a second thought on where anyone is from.

I am not sure if i am reading the same site that you read. Can you please send the link in a way that i be sure the same site i am studying. Give me a tip for googleing it.

As far as i know Sharia Law is not three or four laws to be applied easily in the system. It is thousands laws some incredibly stupid and against any humanity in the world.

The immigrants problem at least in Sweden is not limited to the Muslim. The immigration history of Sweden indicates problem with non Muslim Immigrants as well. Some of us are not only extremely nationalist but also we reach to narcissism. Discrimination is in fact an unavoidable part of any society who accept immigrants because it is not really possible to make all people to think and behave like each other. or correctly. Discrimination naturally increases as fear increases. It can exist in any part of society and be done by individuals. Therefore, it exist anyhow. but if somebody feels it a lot , then I have to say the person became pessimistic.

Islam has been static for over1400 years, with no change in sight.

My dear, believe me a religion's nature is not changeable nor revisable. the thing that should actually change is people. And if you look carefully you see change in people mind during 1400 years. Many Muslim countries use today civilized laws beside the Sharia law and many of them avoid to fully follow sharia rules. Theses are change please have a look on these changes as well.

"there are absolutely no facts to support any progress whatsoever in that regard."

I think we need to wait more to see the results. I see the fact in this shape that If you encounter Muslim, in many cases, you find children milder than their parents and it is not much strange if you see conflict between parents and children. Additionally, the wave of immigrants is not enough old to expect to see clear result. We recently had many new immigrants from Iraq for example. Further more, I really could not see any organized and well- thought plan in whole Europe to lead us to a clear result. I recently see some movements that seem promising to some extent, event though the whole plan is not still clear. Before that if it was a plan, it was mainly based on ideology rather science.

When we cultivate a plant it may take some years to grow up after that we need to wait two three years until it yields. Meanwhile we have to have a close eyes and take care of that. I understand the concerns and I myself sometimes feel bad about things that go around but even so, I am worry that lest we get an axe and cut the tree just because it did not yield yet. believe me that it is not much difficult to make reality of something inside our mind and then make it so big that cause us to trap in fear.

I am not sure if i am reading the same site that you read. Can you please send the link in a way that i be sure the same site i am studying. Give me a tip for googleing it."

Just google,

"Sharia Europe"

There are numerous links, but start with the top one, and go from there.

I hope your optimism will play out as such, but all the facts leave me very doubtful.

I would be more than happy to see it.

Then, I read the correct site. It is in fact a way of discussing a matter. The author put some truth in his site and among these truth start telling his own opinions and things which are not relevant. Even books have written in this way. When I search some part of site to find the main event t I only find the untouched and exact copy of these material in some other sites, The main source in unclear. In news site I find it again in people comment.I need the main source to know what really happened otherwise can not judg the situation. For example, I searched for this: In Germany, Muslim men have successfully used the Sharia law in court to defend their right to beat their wives and to practice polygamy. I want to know what was the problem exactly but I cant find it.

Regarding this issue in Sweden, You are not allowed to marry to two women inside Sweden but if you did it outside of Sweden you can live in Sweden with your wives. First problem: Sweden laws does not ban living with two wives in Sweden. Second problem: there is no law to defend theses women if something happened because polygamy is not practicing to have a law.

The debate is here: Can we use some of Sharia law in theses cases. In fact supporters discuss that we can introduce some elements of sharia law which are not against our values in the system to deal with such situations. I myself may be in favor that to makes living of such people forbidden inside Europe.

Any way, I refer you to this article in Local to understand how Sharia law can be used in favor of people as well : Sharia law being used in Germany in Muslims' domestic disputes.

Now, I give you some example of some other sharia laws:

1) Drinkers, gamblers and those who fail to offer prayer five times a day must be whipped. (2) A husband may beat his disobedient wife. (3) A thief must have a hand cut off. (4) An adulterer should be stoned to death. (5) Anyone who leaves Islam must be killed.

Do you think such laws under any circumstance can be applied in our justice systems?

The Netherlands will become Western Europe's first majority-Muslim nation by 2015. Now is 2012 and still the majority are dutch.

Phase 4: When the Muslim population becomes the majority and/or Islam gains control of a nation (e.g., Taliban in Afghanistan prior to 2001), Sharia law is imposed on the nation, which is then locked down against non-Islamic influences, principally Christianity. The ideal Islamic state is Saudi Arabia, where Sharia is the only law of the land and enforced without mercy

Author either has no clue about Afghanistan and Taliban or wants to exaggerate. Saudi Arabia, as the worse Islamic country, is considerably different from Taliban regime. If you search the site you may find more problems. Although some part of site is true but many parts in only personal opinion which are repeated hugely in the similar sites.

Then, I read the correct site. It is in fact a way of discussing a matter. The author put some truth in his site and among these truth start telling his own opinions and things which are not relevant. Even books have written in this way. When I search some part of site to find the main event t I only find the untouched and exact copy of these material in some other sites, The main source in unclear. In news site I find it again in people comment.I need the main source to know what really happened otherwise can not judg the situation. For example, I searched for this: In Germany, Muslim men have successfully used the Sharia law in court to defend their right to beat their wives and to practice polygamy. I want to know what was the problem exactly but I cant find it."

The authors opinions are irrelevant, the only thing i am interested in are the facts.

That is what i want you to take from the links.

"Now, I give you some example of some other sharia laws:

1) Drinkers, gamblers and those who fail to offer prayer five times a day must be whipped. (2) A husband may beat his disobedient wife. (3) A thief must have a hand cut off. (4) An adulterer should be stoned to death. (5) Anyone who leaves Islam must be killed.

Do you think such laws under any circumstance can be applied in our justice systems?"

All those things presently are happening in islamic states.

If imuslims become a majority in any country, it is a simple matter of voting in an islamic government, who in turn can create another islamic state, under theocratic rule.

That means they would also have control of the laws and rules, and then all bets are off.

Last week, a women in Saudi Arabia who was convicted of witchcraft was beheaded.

Also last week in Afghanistan, a woman who was raped by a relative was given 15 years in jail for adultery, while her rapist walked free.

I could go on and on with examples, so my answer to your question is, at the present time, no, if an islamic state comes to fruition, absolutely yes.

In Egypt, at this present time, 82% of those polled want stoning for adultery, 84% want death to apostates, and they are in the process of voting in an islamic government.

The majority of muslims worldwide want apostates to be murdered.

Muslim take the majority!?

It is also an illusion.

I start from site. The author claim that there are 14 million Muslim in France , 9 million illegal. Just imagine, the author claim that a population equal of Sweden are living in France illegally! what he took the French government , a fool. Can you imagine what could happen to the economy if it was correct. Even CIA never estimate the Population of Muslim more than 10% in France.

in 2015 Muslim take Majority in Netherlands: In 2012 Still 79% of Netherlands population are ethnically Dutch and mare then the half of remaining are not Muslim as well.

Now, let me to have an stupid funny calculation

The population of Europe is about 800 M, of that less than 60M Muslim.

Let's assume that half of Muslim population, 30 M, are women who are capable of giving birth at this time.

let's assume population of non Muslim remain constant, NO birth.

illogical assumptions but let's calculate when and how Muslim take majority in Europe.

According to my calculation, every Muslim woman should give birth to 24.6 babies if it is supposed that the population of Muslim become equal with non Muslim. It means if they act like machine it takes 25 years.

Now, you tell me how much such an event is possible! 24 babies from each woman in 24 years? Even in one country it cannot happen.

This is obviously a game. The only fact that you should know here is that there are people in the world that live on people misery and earn money with creating conflict and war.

Why we underestimate the government and intelligent services and think they are fool and cannot understand if there is such a danger?

What cause us to feel our government will seat and watching the establishment of ,for example, an extremist Islamic country close to their borders. And why people think all Muslim in Europe are believers are serious questions.

I am aware of example that you gave and I am also aware that theses countries are years backwards comparing us. Then, it is not surprising to see these things. In some countries it is not Islam which is matter but creation of fear (coming from performing law) in people for remaining on power is the main aim.

Egypt: it is in fact what you could expect after any revolution. extremists come on power always after a revolution. in future we may hear much about casualty How long it may take, not much predictable ( lots of things involved)but I expect it to cause some international problems as well.

/The majority of Muslims worldwide want apostates to be murdered/

In fact if you have the delusion that all non Muslim wants to destroy my religion and they are my enemy, then , either you kill yourself or others. We had a very bad past, result in misconceptions. we should be cautious and let thing back to its real forms and be very careful about those who intentionally or unintentionally make the situation worse.

'Now, you tell me how much such an event is possible! 24 babies from each woman in 24 years? Even in one country it cannot happen.'

Where did i mention 24 years?, don't put words in my mouth.

This is what i said, and nowhere did i mention a timeline.

"If imuslims become a majority in any country, it is a simple matter of voting in an islamic government, who in turn can create another islamic state, under theocratic rule."

"This is obviously a game."

Apparently, see above.

"In fact if you have the delusion that all non Muslim wants to destroy my religion and they are my enemy, then , either you kill yourself or others. We had a very bad past, result in misconceptions. we should be cautious and let thing back to its real forms and be very careful about those who intentionally or unintentionally make the situation worse."

So, you are a muslim, why the hell didn't you clarify your position, instead of playing

this game?

"What i want is the total ignoring of ideologies including religions. Today world is the world of science and there is no more place for ideology to use in the world

management.

If you be enough patient what happened for Christianity will happen for Islam and it s going to pay its way out of people life."

I lay my cards on the table honestly and frankly when engaging in conversation, i expect the same from those i deal with, and it's obvious i am not getting this here.

I don't have time for deception.

Bye bye.

Are you interest in poetry , I found it while I was searching for information for our discussion. Thank you ! I learned some new things from you and found a nice poem.

Not Christian or Jew or

Muslim, not Hindu,

Buddhist, Sufi, or Zen.

Not any religion

or cultural system. I am

not from the east

or the west, not

out of the ocean or up

from the ground, not

natural or ethereal, not

composed of elements at all.

I do not exist,

am not an entity in this

world or the next,

did not descend from

Adam and Eve or any

origin story. My place is

the placeless, a trace

of the traceless.

Neither body or soul.

I belong to the beloved,

have seen the two

worlds as one and

that one

call to and know,

first, last, outer, inner,

only that breath breathing human being.

sufi rumi - 13th century

There is no deception. I just told whatever i could see in reality. Please back to my recommendation and read the first number 4, it will tell you why I must stay unknown.

There is no deception. I just told whatever i could see in reality. Please back to my recommendation and read the first number 4, it will tell you why I must stay unknown. "

I am reluctant to respond.

I agree with your number 4, but if queried, it would not prevent me from simply revealing my spiritual position, and moving on.

If you see it otherwise, so be it.

I did however enjoy the poem.

You seem to be a good person, thank you for the conversation.

I also learned.

I understand! Enjoy your life. Bye bye!

Just one more thing i forgot in case your still around, i really enjoyed the poem, and i'm sure you noted the judgmental arrogance of the mere ignorant mortal who penned it.