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Lars Vilks egged at 'Muhammad' lecture

Published: 22 Feb 12 12:47 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/39262/20120222/

Controversial Swedish artist Lars Vilks was forced to dodge eggs thrown by angry audience members while giving a lecture about his Muhammad cartoons and free expression at the University of Karlstad on Tuesday.

”They were also shouting some slogans. We removed them as well as two people who had started shouting back at the 15 (egg throwers). At the time it was a bit tumultuous but the commotion only lasted for about a minute,” said Tommy Lindh of the local police to news agency TT.

Vilks was lecturing on freedom of speech at the university on Tuesday evening at the invitation of the university's association of international affairs (Utrikespolitiska föreningen).

The local Islamic Culture Association (Islamiska kulturföreningen) and Karlstad Young Muslims (Unga muslimer i Karlstad) had called for a boycott of the lecture earlier in the day, writing in a statement that Vilks ”abuses the freedom of speech that we all enjoy and uses it in such a way as to create tension sin society”

Vilks began his lecture bringing up examples of artists who have challenged the boundaries of freedom of speech in different ways, several of whom have been reported to the police and convicted.

Among these was an exhibition on pornographic images of children, Malmö street artist Dan Park's poster of a black man in chains with the text "Our Negro slave has run away”, Vilks's own caricature of the prophet Muhammed as a dog and Jesus as a paedophile, according to a university statement.

A short while into the lecture, fifteen people suddenly rose and began throwing eggs at Vilks.

Two other members of the audience reacted against the attack and started shouting at the egg-throwers.

However, police officers present at the speech were quickly able to remove the disturbing elements from the auditorium and the lecture could continue.

According to the police, no one has been arrested as of yet, nor was Vilks hit by any of the eggs thrown by the irate members of the audience as he was rushed off stage.

”We have yet to decide whether or not a criminal act has been committed. Vilks might also report the incident himself,” said Lindh to Sveriges Television (SVT).

The university association for international affairs were pleased with the visit, despite the attack.

”It is important that we are able to discuss questions about freedom of speech and democracy at the university. We regret that this occurred but we are happy that we could carry on,” said Mazlom Dogan of the association in a statement.

Police couldn't elaborate on what the egg throwers had been chanting as they staged their attack. But according to Lindh the officers who were present are likely to have heard what was being shouted.

Vilks told local paper Nya Wermlands Tidningen (NWT) that while no one should accept these kind of attacks, they are hard to avoid if one wants to be able to make everyone welcome to a public event.

Also, it isn't the first time he has encountered threatening behaviour.

”I have been around the block before,” Vilks said to NWT.

At the end of the lecture many in the audience wanted to know what reactions Vilks wanted to get from his art and whose responsibility these reactions were.

”Insults are part of democratic society. If we begin censoring ourselves it will mean undermining freedom of speech in the long run. I don't think that the problem is that artists are too provocative but that we are not provocative enough,” said Vilks in answer to their questions.

According to NWT, police have identified several of the attackers and have reported the incident as assault and disturbing a public assembly.

Video of the incident from local newspaper Värmlands Folkblad

The Local/rm (news@thelocal.se)

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13:20 February 22, 2012 by philster61
Throw the eggs back.....
13:30 February 22, 2012 by godnatt
The "slogan" was "Allahu Akbar".

The whole video is on the web if you want to search for it.

This is what constitutes dialogue in the Muslim world.

Only there it's bullets, not eggs. Probably will be here soon enough, unfortunately.
13:31 February 22, 2012 by AHA
It is getting very boring to read about this person. He loves to see his name and picture in the news. What can he ever give lectures about? I blame those who dislike him because their actions make him important and he does not deserve that. Ignore him and he will be forgotten in no time.
13:33 February 22, 2012 by kashmiri81
intresting lecture ... Now im feeling like to create cartoons of Royal family in sweden .,.... I am allow to do so ?..... with faces of different wild animals .....
13:41 February 22, 2012 by BillyB
@kashmiri81

yes you are allowed, and vast majority of people wouldnt care less.
13:47 February 22, 2012 by code14j
@kasmiri81 i think you are allowed to do so...

what other people think and say should not be problem for us simply because it is what others think and say. for freedom of speech let me finish this with a joke;

one day moses, jesus and mohammad were in a bar and they see a beatiful woman. they decide to roll a die so that who gets the highest number will go and ask woman to date. moses rolls 4, jesus rolls 5 and mohammad rolls 6. suddenly a die falls from sky and it is 7.

i can laugh to this joke and i define myself as a muslim as well.
13:48 February 22, 2012 by Migga
@ Go ahead kashmiri8, you wouldn`t be the first tho.

If you want to look at the attack just go to youtube;

/watch?v=1YZxLrc98wE

/watch?v=Dar8RAs8WbQ
13:55 February 22, 2012 by engagebrain
These would be the same Muslims who deny that Jesus was the son of god.

In the good old days the penalty for blasphemy was death.

Lucky for Muslims that we have now have freedom of speach and that people like Lars defend it.
14:19 February 22, 2012 by RobinHood
@Kashmiri81

Now you're getting it. Welcome to the age of enlightenment. A few centuries behind some of us, but welcome all the same. Get drawing and good luck to you. We'll have you reading the Bible, and engaging in reasoned debate soon if you're not careful.

What a pleasure to see person civilizing him/her self before our very eyes.
14:22 February 22, 2012 by truthworthy
lol Vilks? who cares about this pig. this people who throw eggs should just mind their business. wasting their time coming to this idi*t is just more idiotic.
15:04 February 22, 2012 by tgolan
free expression is apparently something that islam fears
15:42 February 22, 2012 by babashki
So, mocking other religious figures would be ok for Islamic people. They would say, this is freedom of speech. However when, THEIR religion becomes mocked. Thats not ok.

Yes, you live in an open and free society. YOU chose to come to an open society knowing they do these acts ( acts = freedom ) yet, you want to inflict your culture upon us?

And these devout devout people who risk jail time because this is against their religion to have their prophet mocked, at the end of the week go drink and get hammered. Have GF and **** around. Which is fine, but isn't drinking and sc***ing around against their religion too?

Some people are just small minded, hypocrites. Which is a shame because they end up tarnishing and labeling a religion to be 'negative' or 'bad'

SD will have a field day with this..

Good on them!

People who see everything as black and white really shouldn't be allowed to live in a free country.
15:47 February 22, 2012 by Svensksmith
Hey Mustafa, could you throw a few eggs my way? I'm kinda light on the grocery money this week.
16:09 February 22, 2012 by chemo007
freedom of experession doesn't mean to hurt the faith n feeling of millions of Muslims. This is not enlightenment nor moderation......this is simply frustration and anger.

@code14j.....

laugh n laugh loudly......u rascit pig.
16:26 February 22, 2012 by OUIJA
only dogs see things in black and white. Humans see things in technicolor and cinemascope.
16:27 February 22, 2012 by Kublai
I am so tired of muslims shouting 'Allahu Akhbar' everywhere and killing non-muslims and getting away with it only because they are western medias little darlings. Why don't you hate-mongers go back to your own countries where you can hate animals, your own women and everyone you want without bothering us.
17:16 February 22, 2012 by Scepticion
Here a funny picture of the king:

http://helanavelnstormar.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/kungen.jpg

I would say it's a lot less degrading than SOME of the cartoons that have been around, that actually would stimulate critical thinking.

Alas, is not only freedom of expression, it is actually critical thinking that is being suppressed. No criticism whatsoever is allowed.

The Catholic church in the middle ages was sure not a great example, with the inquisition, selling absolution of sins for money, stifling criticism (Galileo), etc. Eventually, some people had enough - the reformation set in. But it was a long and bloody process with wars and many dead. In the end, also Catholicism had to reform. Even so, it still took until mostly the 20th century to separate church and state more completely.

Alas, Islam is more than 600 years younger, and is still stuck in the middle ages so to speak. There are a number of Islamic voices that promote that Islam needs to reform, but they are far in between.

Most moderates don't even dare to open their mouth. There was a huge support for the death penalty of some poor soul who had made some ill-thought tweets and was extradited back from Malaysia to Saudi Arabia. Were is the support from moderate Muslims for him? This is not even an issue of freedom of speech really, i.e. he was not standing in parliament or on a street corner, giving a speech to the public. He just voiced his own thoughts, albeit publicly.

This just points to the fact that this is a totally repressive system that does not allow any dissent at all. Moderates mostly don't dare to speak.

It is undemocratic and intolerant. As such, any demands for respect and tolerance is a one way street, since the system does not give any tolerance.

Unfortunately then, Western tolerance has to stop when faced with an intolerant system.
17:30 February 22, 2012 by jan.petras
Where the Muslims are not happy:

They're not happy in Gaza.

They're not happy in Egypt.

They're not happy in Libya.

They're not happy in Morocco.

They're not happy in Iran.

They're not happy in Iraq.

They're not happy in Yemen.

They're not happy in Afghanistan.

They're not happy in Pakistan.

They're not happy in Syria.

They're not happy in Lebanon.

They're not happy in Indonesia.

So, where are they happy?

They're happy in Australia.

They're happy in England.

They're happy in France.

They're happy in Italy.

They're happy in Germany.

They're happy in Sweden.

They're happy in the USA.

They're happy in Norway.

They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic!

And who do they blame [for their unhappiness]?

Not Islam...not their leadership...not themselves... They blame the countries in which they are HAPPY! And they want to change the countries in which they're happy, to be like the countries they came from, where they were unhappy.

Try to find logic in that.
17:31 February 22, 2012 by strixy
Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too. ~Voltaire

Maybe those Muslims need to understand that freedom of speech is the right for some people to say things that can make us feel uncomfortable. You don;t have to listen. If, however, you do not wish to allow to speak people with ideas adverse to your own, it's time to move elsewhere.

In any truly open minded country those throwing eggs would be charged with assault. Next time it may be stones.
17:57 February 22, 2012 by godnatt
Hmm... and I wonder why there isn't peace in the Middle East.

It must be the fault of the Jews of course.
18:07 February 22, 2012 by occassional
Reap the fruits of your naivety now Sweden. Enjoy !
18:31 February 22, 2012 by mafketis
chemo007: " freedom of experession doesn't mean to hurt the faith n feeling of millions of Muslims"

Why not? Why should muslim belief be privileged over other kinds of beliefs?

Why are so many muslims want non-muslims to follow muslim specific rules?
18:34 February 22, 2012 by motti
jan.petras They are happy in Israel. Those who live there will refuse to live under "Palestine" control.

These people have ensured that Jews and Zionists are silenced at meetings here in the UK for years. They are scared of the truth being made known.As the saying goes Sweden,. what you sow, so shall you reap = trouble!
18:56 February 22, 2012 by Rod Munch
Jan.Petras- Brilliant comment and absolutely the truth. The Muslims really need to ask themselves why they are the only minority here in Sweden that people have a major problem with. But they won't b/c these people don't have the ability to be self-critical or accountable for their actions....kinda like children or animals.
19:25 February 22, 2012 by canuk
why are they letting anyone of color into these presentations without a body search or handcuffing?
19:30 February 22, 2012 by gh2008
i mind my own business and i have this little small world around me; family, friends and so on. it is a Muslim world in a whole. with regard to what Mr. Lars is up to, i couldn't care less! he is allowed to do whatever he likes; as long as no serious harm or real life threat is at stake, which we don't see here. those angry birds need to cool down.
20:07 February 22, 2012 by Liferider
I want to say one thing this guy is doing for cheap publicity..
20:13 February 22, 2012 by strixy
chemo007: " freedom of experession doesn't mean to hurt the faith n feeling of millions of Muslims"

On the contrary. Freedom of speech guarantees the right to speak for everyone, also your adversaries. If you do not like it, then you do not support freedom of speech.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. ~Evelyn Beatrice Hall, The Friends of Voltaire, 1906

If you disagree with this principle then you disagree with the foundations of Western Europe and maybe you'd feel better living somewhere else.

@ jan.petras

Could not agree more.
20:19 February 22, 2012 by doesntmatter
I am a muslim and I just dont like what he does. However I dont agree with what happened to him, in Quran it states not to provoke the ones who try to hurt you in your faith. Still, someone does something about the freedom of speech and it turns to be against muslims, at these times humanity puts itself on a big test. Peopel are dying of hunger in Africa, and youtube is full of children who have been killed in gaza and Syria. more than 500 people where dead because it was just too cold outside and they could not find a place to get warm, and yet we would spend a lot of time discussing how it is important to say what we want even if it hurts a lot of people. But we would not even spend a minute sharing pain or happiness.
20:30 February 22, 2012 by calebian22
Freedom of speech protects speech that is disagreable. No exceptions, especially for pedophile prophets.
20:32 February 22, 2012 by diegoveggie
its just a cartoon people! who gives a shhttt
20:46 February 22, 2012 by RobinHood
Fifteen more suckers to go on SAPO's watch list, with all the phone tapping, e-mail reading, computer hacking consequences. And the world will be a safer place because of it.
20:51 February 22, 2012 by 45auto
Islam continues to be incompatible with western values.

Get over it liberals. It won't work. Oil and water.

Send the barbarians back where they came from before they have the numbers like they do in France. Then it will be a bit too late.
21:19 February 22, 2012 by Orxan
first of all,everyone must respect each others' religion.yeah I'm muslim I'm proud with it.If someone insult my religion ,maybe I punish him or her.We (muslims) never insult any prophet of other religion.We respect each one.We dont do any discemation to them(prophets).

in Koran about this is written "The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

Al-Baqarah 285.

İf someone denies this ,then it is heteric.And must be punished.
21:25 February 22, 2012 by code14j
@chemo007 what is your point? i am a muslim but i am against extremism. about the race thing i am not swedish (ethnicaly and i dont have citizenship either) if they were not agree with him they would just ignore him.

i got sick of the fact that people tend to see and judge everything on the view of religion but not reason. for some swedes i am a muslim and for some muslims (i have experienced this) i am a 'heretic'. i also dont agree islamaphobic comments as well.

@doesntmatter that was a comment i wanted to see. thanks.
22:01 February 22, 2012 by strixy
@Orxan

You say you will punish those who nsult your religion. Should you also be punished for insulting Western values? If you want to practise your barbaric code of 'morality' you can choose a country that will accommodate such views. Just have a look at jan.petras' list.
22:11 February 22, 2012 by Rod Munch
+++We (muslims) never insult any prophet of other religion.We respect each one.We dont do any discemation to them(prophets). +++

Really?? LOL. Tell that to any religious minority in any Muslim country and see how hard they laugh.
22:31 February 22, 2012 by slash_gordon
@ Jan.Petras and Rod Munch: you couldn't have said it better!

@doesntmatter I agree with most of what you said, namely the suffering in the world, but why do you (and a few others who have commented) have to do what "it says in the koran"? Why can't you use common sense, like treat others as you would like to be treated. For instance, instead of thinking "well in the koran it says not to provoke the ones who try to hurt you in your faith so I shouldn't throw an egg at this guy", why not think "well, I wouldn't want an egg thrown at me because of my beliefs so I shouldn't throw one at the guy who mocks my religion". If more muslims depended less on the koran this way then it would be easier for them to get along with non-muslims. But without the koran many don't seem to be able to think for themselves...just like children and animals.
22:35 February 22, 2012 by stateohio905
Lars Wilks really has to stop to do this again and again. It does not do any good to anybody. His actions are simply provocation nothing else.
22:46 February 22, 2012 by doesntmatter
Mr. Slash: I keep my belief for myself all the time, I cite from the Kuran for two reasons:

1- The one who thinks Kuran is evil please reconsider other possibilitys.

2- The one who hurts or misuses in the name of kuran please stop.

Common sense is what defines human beings from animals, so please dont get me wrong.

I think if this guy is left alone then non-muslims will start telling him stop it, it is not funny anymore.
23:15 February 22, 2012 by Orxan
strixy ,man can you tell me that smt about you "western values"? I know less more about this and they are to publicise gays,lesbians and other dumbass people.and I think your "value " consists of them.The RIP Hitler said once about your 'democracy' that when a camel can go through of hole of needle then i may believe it.

Rod Munch,I live in Baku,Azerbaijan.You can come here and you can ask our religious minority about their living here.We dont insult them in our country ,also their prophet.For us every prophet are equal .We respect them also they do in return.We never prohibit building religious prayhouse as sinagoge and chapel.But you do this,you prohibit our minarets.
23:16 February 22, 2012 by IranianAtheist
Western world has fought a long fight to offer opportunity of open criticism of every single idea, including claims made by Muhammd and Jesus. This is what was missing in Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR.

Even though I appreciate Vilks' efforts, I think more open discussions without mocking and pig and dog drawings would be more helpful. Ali Dashti, an Iranian scholar and former senator has a good book about Muhammad's career which is translated into English and is available from Amazon or online and it is called "Twenty Three Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad" that I strongly recommend to those interested in learning about Islam. Muslims also could try and write online critical reviews on it if they think it has mistakes.
23:19 February 22, 2012 by Orxan
in addition I want to give a question to non-muslim people .in case of freedom of speech CAN I INSULT YOUR FAMILY OR YOUR DEAR PEOPLE? please be polite and just response with yes or no....
23:55 February 22, 2012 by strixy
@Orxan

Yes, you do insult other people on the basis of religion. In fact, some interpretations of Quran plainly state that 'infidels shall be slayed'. If you follow this principle it is better for everyone if you don't live in a country that values freedom of speech. And true freedom of speech is the right to speak for everyone, even those whose views you find uneasy. If you do not like this, there is really no pressure on you to live anywhere else but in a country that will accommodate your extreme and intolerant views.

Yes, if it makes you happy you can insult members of my family because this only reflects bad on you, not on me. I would not attempt to throw eggs and stones at you for that.

If you ask for politeness, then I politely advise you to start from yourself.
00:53 February 23, 2012 by Children Of Adam
1) Why Muslims are so crazy about prophet Muhammad?

2) What he (the Prophet) did to those who insulted him?

Why Michael H Hart in his book 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978 chose prophet Muhammad as the number 1 among 100 most influential people in the world defeating Isaac Newton, Paul, and Jesus?

Did you read about Prophet Muhammad?
00:58 February 23, 2012 by engagebrain
21:19 February 22, 2012 by Orxan

By your denial that Jesus was the son of god you insult the fundamental beliefs of christians - how should they respond to your insult ?

That blasphemy by Muslims, and other religions, is tolerated must in turn require that Muslims tolerate what they take to be blasphemy. Tolerate means not to kill, injure or threaten- which leaves freedom of speech for insulting the blasphemer - use it.
01:37 February 23, 2012 by icedearth
Yes. People value life here alot. 3,4 topics about individual lost their lives and readers commenting about an idiot who is fooling them with his artistic pieces that can be done by an 8 years old child.
03:54 February 23, 2012 by Gary Seth
Why are stupid Swedes letting Muslim thugs destroy their culture of freedom and open expression? Very soon, these fast-breeding rabbits called Muslims will take over your country. Kick them out, otherwise your future generations will never, never forgive you. We in India know the mistake our stupid forefathers made centuries ago by not stopping Muslim invaders, and look where we are today. India has already been divided into Pakistan and Bangladesh, and there are still more Muslims in India than in Pakistan. Wake up, guys!
06:43 February 23, 2012 by RobinHood
@orxan

You guys from far away places just don't get it. Do you? The answer is yes. Now fast forward 400 years and try and work out why.
08:25 February 23, 2012 by b_raz_swed
freedom of speech .. DUH !! this is freedom of insult !

EU has double standards when it comes to this freedom of speech ! try denying holocaust and you will get prison sentence ! there is no freedom of speech ! rather there's freedom of hypocrisy !
08:25 February 23, 2012 by Children Of Adam
@ Gary Seth

I am not sure if you are a true Indian, and you ignore the facts that India has benefited a lot from Islam and became a well known country.

You need to do a research on how Hindus benefits from Arab traders and by inviting to Islam to worship the creator God (Allah) not ( not cow or monkeys) that is how they accepted Islam because it made sense to them and it was not by force or sword and they (Muslims) became over 400 Millions.

The Indian leader Gandhi saying about Prophet Muhammad might help you to understand Islam better if you are an educated. You might read what he said about Prophet Muhammad.
08:34 February 23, 2012 by b_raz_swed
@Gary Seth what a fu**king analogy you made !

this shows your lack of knowledge about other countries ! try to come out of this utopian world ! Why dont u go fu** ur government to stop the muslim immigration then ?

why dont u ask ur governments to stop bombing innocent civilians ..

do u have any idea how many innocent people lost their lives in afghanistan, iraq, and now the same is happening in other places..

people in EU should owe it to the f afghanistn/pakistan for breaking up USSR and now u can sleep peacefully ! well guess what .. kremlin is rising again
09:24 February 23, 2012 by engagebrain
08:25 February 23, 2012 by b_raz_swed ' EU has double standards when it comes to this freedom of speech ! try denying holocaust and you will get prison sentence ! there is no freedom of speech ! rather there's freedom of hypocrisy ! '

You confuse denying facts, the holocaust, with questioning and even insutling religions.

No religion can provide anything that even approaches proof that there is a god, let alone that the god happens to be their variant. In the absence of gods religion becomes a cultural and political artefact use to acquire money and power.
09:27 February 23, 2012 by glimmannen
freedom of speech or freedom of expression IS NOT freedom of insult. What a whole bunch of idiots commenting here.

Wanna test your freedom of expression? go live on TV and deny 'the holocaust'' or just question the 6 million number. Maybe in sweden you can away with it if you are unemployed. If you hold an important position somewhere I can garantee you lose your job and your imagine will be ruined.

In 12 countries in EU you can not question the holocaust. Should we say that in these 12 countries there is no freemdon of speech? you can insult about anyone and anything as long as it is not holocaust.

It is time to wake up from your slumber, there is no such thing as freedom of expression. Peace
10:14 February 23, 2012 by b_raz_swed
@ engage brain !

freedom of a expression is a freedom of expression !

Subject of 'Holocaust' is very sensitive to some of us and rightly so .. i agree !

The same is the case of 'Respect for Prophets' for Muslims. It is very sensitive matter and people like Lars Vilks just to get cheap publicity use it to aggravate and aggravate and anger the muslim majority !

Why would you use freedom of expression to hurt the feelings of people. Denial of holocaust hurt the feelings of so many people .. same is the case with insulting Prophets - hurts the feelings of people !

Being an atheist or believing not believing on god is a separate matter which certainly doesn't come into this thread !
10:38 February 23, 2012 by nolikegohome
this will also pass and be forgotton with time and life will go on as usual.
10:46 February 23, 2012 by klubbnika
By the way, the Local, thanks for showing us how eggs look like. We would never have guessed ...
11:33 February 23, 2012 by engagebrain
b_raz_swed

Every time Muslims assert, that Jesus was not the son of God, you insult Christians. Given that Christians think that your prophet has no connection with god, there is a fundamental problem - each religion is an insult to the other.

The only way to avoid bloodshed is to accept insults and recognize that your beliefs insult others.

Truth and libel are other limitations on freedom of speech. I am not free to invent stories about you, or at least you have some legal response if I attack your reputation. Here we are dealing with facts - you may or may not be mass murder - if you are a man of peace them I am wrong to claim you are a murderer. Evidence can be offered and a judgement made. Not so with religious questions - they cannot be resolved. A Christian cannot prove to your satisfaction that Jesus is the son of god and your cannot show that your prophet passes on god's words.
11:33 February 23, 2012 by mafketis
b_raz_swed: "freedom of speech or freedom of expression IS NOT freedom of insult. What a whole bunch of idiots commenting here."

Yeah, you're stupid, I get it (see what I did there?)

For the record, as a vehement supporter of free speech I'm against laws that outlaw "holocaust denial" or whatever other mush-brained euphimism they're using now. Outlawing that kind of speech does not eliminate dangerous ideas it drives them underground where they fester.... Better to address them publically. The best defense against a dangerous idea is a better idea.

There are categories of unprotected speech such as calling for violence against specific individuals or classes of people or yelling 'FIRE!' in a crowded enclosed space when there is no fire, things like that.

However hurting somones wittle feewings is fully protected whether by insulting a monarch or their family members or a supposed prophet.

(and yes, calling Jesus a 'prophet' instead of the son of God is deeply offensive to many Christians who do not wish to impose their orthodoxy on others).
11:36 February 23, 2012 by Scepticion
First, I think most Western people usually do not insult Islam. If I for example, visit another country I try to respect local culture/customs - irrespective of religion.

However, I do support the right for free speech. Those who argue there is no free speech in the West (if you talk about holocaust) make a huge logical mistake. It was borne out of the ashes of one of the most brutal regimes in the world which showed no tolerance. Denying facts that happened under that regime cannot be allowed to take hold in society, because ultimately we never want this regime to rise from the ashes again, do we? Or perhaps the Muslims will be happy if there is a totalitarian regime that eliminates all Jews, and afterwards all Muslims?

To all those who generalize and say Muslims do never insult, open your eyes do not deny the facts.

www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1410190/posts

justifythis.blogspot.com/2006/12/australia-muslim-students-urinate-spit.html

(I don't see these students threaded by death penalty, do you?)

voices.yahoo.com/christians-gaza-fear-their-lives-as-muslims-403365.html

www.speroforum.com/a/17283/Muslims-burn-Bible-in-Pakistan

Maybe you argue that these are isolated incidents, well, then be tolerant enough to also see that Viks is an isolated incident too.
12:20 February 23, 2012 by burito
F@#*n muslims...
13:27 February 23, 2012 by b_raz_swed
@engagebrain:

These are the fundamental differences btw islam and christianity.

your analogy doesn't make any sense. How can u relate that to 'Caricatures'.

Each religion is not an insult to any religion. Its just the interpretation which makes it so ! People in the west have misconceptions about islam. I wonder whats ur source and wats ur level of knowledge about it. CNN and BBC doesnt do a sh!t ! I wonder if u know that in Islam if u kill a single person .. this relates to killing the whole humanity .. if certain maniac muslim do something .. this doesnt imply that the islam spread hatred ! try to increase ur knowledge abt islam ! its a peaceful religion ..

@mafketis .. ur argument supplements my point of view ! that EU has double stds when it comes to freedom of speech .. there's no freedom of speech in eu .. they have double standards

@Scepticion .. y is west so afraid of muslims .. u attacked and killed millions in afghanistan, iraq, and this continues today .. In middle east history is repeating itself .. the aggression and suppression continues ! In Iraq, a civilization has been destroyed ! a whole civilization turned into ashes ! y dun u and ask ur fukin gov to stop the violence there .. its ironic !
17:47 February 23, 2012 by Orxan
strixy, Man,I wanted to say you by question that Our Prophet Muhammed (s.a.s) is worth and dear to us than other people even our family.I'm not going to insult you and other because I and my muslum brothers dont acknowledge your freedom of speech.BUT if someone insult our prophet ,you must know we will punish them.

engagebrain, ++++By your denial that Jesus was the son of god you insult the fundamental beliefs of christians - how should they respond to your insult ?+++++

yeah ,we deny that Jesus was the son of God(Allah).As you know ,most christian people (especially Ortodoxes and Molokans) deny it also.They believe that The God(Allah) is only as we admit.As result we dont insult .

If you have soooooo great freedom of speech,Lets deny occuring of holocoust.Because of this have never happened.But you admited due to 3-4 devious,deceitful Jewish pigs.And you cant critisize it ,you cant deny it .YOU (EUROPEANS) ARE COWARD PEOPLE.
18:30 February 23, 2012 by godnatt
@ Orxan

Whether a knuckle dragging peasant like yourself "acknowledges" our freedom of speech is irrelevant. You can simply acknowledge the inside of a jail cell instead.

A dozen people on here have already insulted your prophet and will continue to do so, AT WILL, whenever they like and there is nothing you can do about it.

I'm sure your blustering makes you feel relevant, though. Now go make me a hot dog.
18:47 February 23, 2012 by Orxan
...Now go make me a hot dog.etc. you are childmind,Icant discuss this with you fuckin dead.
18:55 February 23, 2012 by mafketis
"BUT if someone insult our prophet ,you must know we will punish them."

I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet of any god. Is that "insulting" him? If so, then what's the punishment?

I'm not even sure Mohammed really existed (there's certainly evidence he didn't or rather a lack of unambiguous evidence that he did).

There's also philological evidence that the Quran is actually mostly a translation of an earlier text or texts ( point out that the Arabic of the Quran is often at odds with other contemporaneous texts and that it reads like a translation of Syro-Aramaic).

Insulted yet?
18:59 February 23, 2012 by IranianAtheist
@Orxan.... you said:

"if someone insult our prophet ,you must know we will punish them."

Sorry, but the only organization that can punish people in Sweden is the judicial system of Sweden. If you can not live with this fact, please leave the Sweden.

By the way, you insulted Jews (by calling them pigs) and Europeans (by calling them cowards).
19:07 February 23, 2012 by godnatt
@Orxan

Was that a threat? Of course it was. Welcome to "dialogue" with Islam.

FYI, I support your right to deny the holocaust and sound like an idiot as much as Vilks' right to sound like one.

Hopefully. though since you've escalated this to threats of violence in true Muslim fashion, you are now on a watch list at SAPO and the CIA and can enjoy their company on all your future emails and phone calls.
19:18 February 23, 2012 by Orxan
IranianAtheist, to my mind ,you are dismissed from iran .And you are only paid puppet by heteric jewish.honey,i dont live in sweden,dont worry about me.

mafketis ,dont watch more to bbc or cnn chanels.read a wee books ,make your knowledge bigger .Because you dont know anything about Islam.you can go to any islamic country and you can bray as loudly as you want. I'm sure that they will give you a death penalty.then you can see your freedom of speech.
19:31 February 23, 2012 by IranianAtheist
Hey Orxan, I am not your honey, watch your stupid language. and I am not dismissed from Iran, I am smarter than that.... to let myself at mercy of a bunch of idiot.. and I am not paid by jews, I earn my money thanks to a PhD in computer engineering.

I have read more books about the topic than you think. And I strongly suggest you to read Ali Dashti's book :" Twenty Three Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad". ..

And obviously I know about the level of freedom of speech in wonderful Islamic countries. You reminding this to me and all other readers makes you look even worse.

At the end, I am happy that you are not in Sweden.
19:37 February 23, 2012 by Orxan
godnatt, do you know ,i'm so frightened from heard it even I'm crying now.what will happen now?the cia can arrest me ?)))))))))) I'm waiting.....hopefully
23:30 February 23, 2012 by Scepticion
@Orxan,

you really speak with hatred and intolerance. Why is that?

You said:

"first of all,everyone must respect each others' religion.yeah I'm muslim I'm proud with it.If someone insult my religion ,maybe I punish him or her.We (muslims) never insult any prophet of other religion."

So, answer me, why did they destroy the big Buddha statues in Bamyian in Afghanistan? Harmless rock statues that don't talk and don't harm anybody. Any particular kind of religion that cannot tolerate this, unfortunately does not suit a modern world, where we need to life together.
00:22 February 24, 2012 by strixy
@Orxan

strixy, Man,

***Ha ha ha, for someone who hates the West so much you sure like the Western English slang. It kind of makes you sound,eerrr, really stupid :D

I wanted to say you by question that Our Prophet Muhammed (s.a.s) is worth and dear to us than other people even our family.

***Then stay away from the Western world somewhere where religion is worth more than actual human life. Why is it that radical Muslims love to live in Western democracies? Surely, if you want a religious paradise you should try to make your own country liveable instead of moving to a secular one, eh?

I'm not going to insult you and other because I and my muslum brothers dont acknowledge your freedom of speech.BUT if someone insult our prophet ,you must know we will punish them.

****Whether you acknowledge my freedom of speech is irrelevant to me. I do not need your approval to practise it. Alike, I do not acknowledge your prophet (or any other for that matter) as I am strictly against all organised religions. They are all dangerous and poisonous IMO. And sorry, radical Islam is the worst because it has so far proven to be the most aggressive, non-tolerant and radical. Surely Christianity was like that 500 years ago but luckily it has evolved. Now you do the same :D

yeah ,we deny that Jesus was the son of God(Allah).As you know ,most christian people (especially Ortodoxes and Molokans) deny it also.They believe that The God(Allah) is only as we admit.As result we dont insult .

***Pfff, ha ha, keep dreaming. Actually most radical Christians regard your so called prophet to be a dangerous paedophile (well, Quran kind of gives grouds for it...). Stop living in a bubble.

If you have soooooo great freedom of speech,Lets deny occuring of holocoust.

****Oh well, Holocaust is a FACT. It has happened and paybe you should save up, buy a plane ticket and visit Auschwitz.

Because denying Holocaust is a weapon used by radical right wing fanatics (the same fanatics that burn asylum seekers' shelters in Europe, btw) it is punishable as denial of a fact. IMO it should not be punishable because if people chose to be stupid, there is nothing you can do.

However, the difference between Holocaust and Quran/Bible etc is that Holocaust really happened and can be proven while religious books are just a bunch of unproven stories. So far noone has proven they are true.

Whether you like it or not, Jews and Arabs are both of Semitic origin and by supporting those who deny Holocaust you are digging your own grave. Because the same people call for extermination of all immigrants from Islamic coutries too.

One is obviously most welcome to remain an ignorant and a religious fanatic. :D
04:41 February 24, 2012 by strixy
@ malak_1974

Save this for when you are at the mosque. I doubt any of us will be looking those suras up now.
06:03 February 24, 2012 by b_raz_swed
Freedom of speech is controlled in EU and no matter how much you guys hate this statement but it is a proven fact !

Even in US it is controlled mainly by the corporate journalism. Everything which you watch on BBC , CNN is part of their country's policy !

These days u hear so much about the suppression of Assad's regime in Syria but hardly you will notice the mention of atrocities carried out by their western led forces in Irqa, Afghanistan etc . an illegal war was waged against iraq - on the premises of WMD - a whole civilization was destroyed there. thousands died , millions lost their homes ! did u find WMD ? NO !

''Some people mention that muslims shouldn't be part of the western societies'' - Ok Fine ! then ask your fukin governments to implement such regulations ! come out of the fear of islam and muslims - i wonder how many people replying in this post actually have a personal contact with any muslim - forget about the fuckin media !

if u hate musims and islamic countries .. why dont u ask ur governments to ban all trade with them and expel their diplomats ! u cant do this .. because u need oil ! and yes there military industrial complex to serve !

EU owe their safety from USSR to the 2 islamic countries which u hate so much : afghanistan and pakistan.. world is becoming bipolar .. or i must say multi polar ! balance of power is shifting , its becoming global , people from all nations, religions are coming closer .. its about time u shud get rid of this islamFOBIA - meet ppl from different religions and u will see .. we are humans , we all bleed when hurt ! PEACE TO ALL !
13:18 February 24, 2012 by Orxan
Scepticion, I dont have any information about the case y'are saying.But we believe in Only God(Allah). ,we have enough tolerance to jewish and christians.So we respect to person who believes and accept The God as one.In addition ,you can search about tolerance in Azerbaijan and Turkey.I'm sure that you cant see any insult to these religions.But ,but in your country there're a lot of insult to our religion.

strixy,actually we shudnt except you to do tolerance.Because when we were going to toilet,you weren't wash even your hands.You learned culture from us.I'm happy that everything is changing to the back.so Your 'developed ' european people are going to be gays and lesbians.
14:15 February 24, 2012 by ameribrit
I wouldn't mind this POS getting so much attention if his "cartoons" were actually funny! The man is a talentless hack that would never get any recognition outside of his protective little Sweden.

As an atheist, yes! atheist and not an agnostic etc...., I think you are all wackadoodles whatever religion you follow. Even if I believed in a "divine" creator I would not follow it out of blind faith. You have to earn my allegiance. If I am wrong and there turns out to be a god, the first thing I will do upon meeting it is punch it in the head for all the suffering that has allowed to be perpetrated in it's name, on ALL sides of the debate.
16:33 February 24, 2012 by OUIJA
17:30 February 22, 2012 by jan.petras

Where the Muslims are not happy:

They're not happy in Gaza.

They're not happy in Egypt.

They're not happy in Libya.

They're not happy in Morocco.

They're not happy in Iran.

They're not happy in Iraq.

They're not happy in Yemen.

They're not happy in Afghanistan.

They're not happy in Pakistan.

They're not happy in Syria.

They're not happy in Lebanon.

They're not happy in Indonesia.

So, where are they happy?

They're happy in Australia.

They're happy in England.

They're happy in France.

They're happy in Italy.

They're happy in Germany.

They're happy in Sweden.

They're happy in the USA.

They're happy in Norway.

They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic!

And who do they blame [for their unhappiness]?

Not Islam...not their leadership...not themselves... They blame the countries in which they are HAPPY! And they want to change the countries in which they're happy, to be like the countries they came from, where they were unhappy.

Try to find logic in that.

Jan: Of course there is no logic in that, but where have you read that Islam makes something logic? Or, when have you seen that TL writes logically? Both things is like requesting a rooster to give birth to a horse.

Keep on with your witty comments. They are certainly a refreshing

Oasis amongst the dryness of the majority of the posters in any of the TL ones.

So, let us all be happy by thinking that they will go back one of these years to the countries where they were not happy and where they will be treated as you know what. But if that is what they want, good for them. They can be my guests. Be happy, go lucky/

@orxan: What do you eat everyday to produce such a huge amount of mental diarrhea. I do not know who wrote about mental farts, but you certainly got the prize for that.
19:10 February 24, 2012 by bcterry
I guess muslims will tell us what, and what not we're allowed to talk about.

These are the rules, and the sooner we dhimmis get in line and do what we're told, the better, they dictate, we listen and cower.

GET IT!!!
20:35 February 24, 2012 by Sven the banana
#b_raz_swed

"Freedom of speech is controlled in EU and no matter how much you guys hate this statement but it is a proven fact ! "This very thread is actually proof that we have freedom of speech! Western civilisation has been thoroughly critisized in this thread. Try critisizing IRAN on their PRESS TV (www.presstv.ir) homepage. Such comments are not even published!!!!!!!!!

By the way, holocaust denial is not a crime in sweden, however you might be taken for a rude idiot if you deny because it's pretty damn obvious that nazis had something to do with 2/3 of european jews dissapearing!
21:04 February 24, 2012 by ramshead
One of the greatest freedom we have is the freedom of expression and speech, but those Muslim terrorist can not stomach that. If they had their way and it is oblivious that is just what they were attempting , denying free speech is only the beginning of establishing Shariah Law and the subjugation on non-Muslims. I sincerely hope that my Swedish friends and relatives will not allow these interlopers to destroy your Swedish culture.
21:32 February 24, 2012 by bcterry
#14

16:09 February 22, 2012 by chemo007

freedom of experession doesn't mean to hurt the faith n feeling of millions of Muslims. This is not enlightenment nor moderation......this is simply frustration and anger. "

The stench of your hypocrisy is staggering.

Koran 9:29

This is what many of our enemies believe about the rest of the worlds population:

"Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them." Koran 2:191

"Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood." Koran 9:123

"When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them." Koran 9:5

"Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable." Koran 3:85

"The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them." Koran 9:30

"Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" Koran 5:33

"The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque." Koran 9:28

"Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies." Koran 22:19

"Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them." Koran 47:4

"The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them." Koran 8:65

"Muslims must not take the infidels as friends." Koran 3:28

"Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an." Koran 8:12

"Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels." Koran 8:60

The posts of this Orxan guy, should be published on the front page of every newspaper, and read aloud on every news cast of the free Western world.

If ever there was a poster boy for mainstream islam, and what we are up against, this guy is perfect.
21:52 February 24, 2012 by doesntmatter
Mr Orxan: A wise man knows when it is time to stop, commenting should be productive.

Mr. IranianAtheist: Please have a look at what a very famous french scientist wrote about Quran, he wrote a whole book " The Quran and the modern science" by Dr. Maurice Bucaille, he was quite famous in france.

Google what Bernard Shaw said about Mohammed, I am sure he did more readings than you did. But please when u read forget for a moment what happened 1400 years ago.

The list of people who were unbiased and wrote fair things about it is very long but I mention these two because are very respectful knowledge seekers "at least for me and many others in the world".
22:00 February 24, 2012 by Stuart Parsons
The Quran, Sunnah and Sirah, without any shadow of doubt tells us that Muhammad MURDERED all who spoke out against him. They further inform us that the so-called 'Prophet', with the support of his deluded followers, to whom he promised booty and women and girls to rape, enslaved, lied, plotted, tortured, killed robbed ransomed and raped his way to absolute power. Many Muslims have been persuaded to believe the self-proclaimed 'Prophet' was the most perfect of men and the example we all should follow.

Muslims, need to read their own source material and find out what the pathological and narcissistic Muhammad really did during the last ten years of his life.

Sadly, Islam is a far, far greater threat to the well-being of mankind than Fascism and Communism ever were. However politically correct politicians, fearful of upsetting Islam, and disigenuous Muslims, call all who try to reveal the truth about Islam and Muhammad, Islamophobic.

Please Muslims before you shout "Allahu Akbar", read your own Quran Sunnah and Sirah and learn the truth about Muhammad. I would also .recommend all Muslims read the 'Sirat Rasul Allah' by Ibn Ishaq. Muhammad was no prophet. He was a mentally deranged psychopath and narcissist.

There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and none so deaf as those who pefer not to listen.
22:05 February 24, 2012 by bcterry
Mr Orxan: A wise man knows when it is time to stop, commenting should be productive. "

His comments ARE very productive, he's honest about the true nature of islam.

It's no wonder you advise him to stop, as he is letting the cat out of the bag, and saying exactly what his brothers feel, but are trying to hide.

Keep em coming Oxman, you are a great educational tool.
22:33 February 24, 2012 by doesntmatter
Mr. bcterry: I wonder what will make you happy in this life, after all if a bottle is already full. u cant add no more on it. So if I encourage him I am bad, I advise him I am bad.

Mr. Staurat : please try to find a new comment, dont put the same every time.

I hope someday all muslims go tot here countrys and all war lords leave muslim and non muslim lands and I hope oil vanishes (why these Islamic terrorists did not do it yet and).

However, the message we get here is don't try u r already terrorists. But that is not we used to heat about open minded Sweden.

In short 1300 millions are there and they will not change there religion, if u want to hear from them u can hear i u dont then it is ur choice.
22:40 February 24, 2012 by bcterry
Mr. bcterry: I wonder what will make you happy in this life, after all if a bottle is already full. u cant add no more on it. So if I encourage him I am bad, I advise him I am bad."

I
23:54 February 24, 2012 by strixy
My comments have been removed. Now, I would very much like to know why The Local is following the same path as the egg-throwers?
01:43 February 25, 2012 by bcterry
Mr. bcterry: I wonder what will make you happy in this life, after all if a bottle is already full. u cant add no more on it."

I appreciate the standard playbook strategy to divert this, but it has nothing to do with me.

"So if I encourage him I am bad, I advise him I am bad."

I never said you are bad,what i said was,

"It's no wonder you advise him to stop, as he is letting the cat out of the bag, and saying exactly what his brothers feel, but are trying to hide."
08:33 February 25, 2012 by rise
The sad truth is that muslims aren't as developed as the rest of the world. Given that fact one can only try to show leniency with them. But one's patience can only reach so far...

What can normal people do with muslims who are behaving like savages from the middle ages? Not much I'm afraid. Development can hardly be forced upon them. No, just send them the hell out of Sweden and let them throw their eggs by themselves in some desert or other wilderness where they belong! "Allahu Akbar", my ass!!
09:23 February 25, 2012 by Orxan
I dont have enough time to discuss this with you anymore.because you are brain-washed poor people.most of you dont have enough IQ than pig.Go live such as gays and lesbians. Your 'culture' consist of only this.
12:57 February 25, 2012 by strixy
@Orxan, for someone who despises gay and lesbians you are surely far too interested in them. Gay and lesbiand do not hurt anyone, unlike paedophiles.... I hope you get the hint.
14:40 February 25, 2012 by bcterry
09:23 February 25, 2012 by Orxan

I dont have enough time to discuss this with you anymore.because you are brain-washed poor people.most of you dont have enough IQ than pig.Go live such as gays and lesbians. Your 'culture' consist of only this. "

You certainly have a fixation on gays. Hmmm

Here's a little enlightenment for you.

"Islam and homosexuality Straight but narrow"

Excerpt,

"Gay life in the open in Muslim-majority countries is rare, but the closet is spacious. Countries with fierce laws, such as Saudi Arabia, also have flourishing gay scenes at all levels of society. Syria's otherwise fearsome police rarely arrest gays. Sibkeh park in Damascus is a tree-filled children's playground during the day. By night it is known for the young men who linger on its benches or walls. Wealthy Afghans buy bachabazi, (dancing boys) as catamites."

Try this one,

"Sexual Perversion in Islam"

How about this,

"Google, the world's most popular Internet search engine, has found in a survey that mostly Muslim states seek access to sex-related websites and Pakistan tops the list. Google found that of the top 10 countries - searching for sex-related sites - six were Muslim, with Pakistan on the top. The other Muslim countries are Egypt at number 2, Iran at 4, Morocco at 5, Saudi Arabia at 7 and Turkey at 8. Non-Muslim states are Vietnam at 3, India at 6, Philippines at 9 and Poland at 10.[1]"

Enjoy.
17:44 February 25, 2012 by Sarahfaz
Freedom of speech, when used to spread hate, hurts human ties and tolerance. For an atheist, drawings of prophets, swastikas, and mutilated cows are not hurtful.. for religious people, all this can be very painful. Respecting faith does not make one's own faith or lack of faith any less.

@ Orxan Educated people put truth above prejudice. You are from Baku, Azerbaijan, a country where economy is affected by widespread corruption and human trafficking; where 20% of people do not have clean drinking water. We should look to how we can improve ourselves before judging others.

@bcterry Post #82 Please do not misquote verses of the Quran.

2.191 - And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

9.123 - O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9.4-5 - Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (4) Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

3.85 - And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

9.30 - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

5.33 - The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

http://www.quranexplorer.com/ has exact text translated by Pickthal or others.
18:15 February 25, 2012 by bcterry
@Sarahfaz,

Thank you so much for these quotes, and confirming my point.

Much appreciated.

Of course there are many others, but these three will suffice.

9.123 - O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). "

9.4-5 - Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (4) Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

3.85 - And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

BTW, while you're here i have a question.

What are thoughts on the idea of a man in his 50's having intercourse with a 9 year old child.

The other muslims who read this are invited to comment as well.

I look forward to your response.
18:56 February 25, 2012 by Orxan
bcterry and strixy,I think you are maybe founder of Sweden gay and lesbi party.So you take points of gays.And you said smt about paedophiles .How you can tell me ?hmmm? I dont remember year but In Iseland occured a big paedophile scandal by priest .btw in cathedral. on the top almost all child pornographic videos are shooten in christian countries.

Btw ,you said smt about gays who live in muslim countries.They are product of your

european values.IN HEART OF EUROPE ,VATICAN,there are roughly 700 gays and lesbians together.ooooo goodyy.I'm sure you are very happy from heard this.

You can do everything together in state of freedom of speech.You two dont break each others' hearts (asses).Happy gay days....
19:31 February 25, 2012 by bcterry
Orxan,

Great to hear from you, thanks for your response.

"Btw ,you said smt about gays who live in muslim countries.They are product of your european values."

Of course they are, as we all know, muslims are not brought up to think for themselves, and are easily influenced by those damn Europeans and their wicked ways.

In Western countries, pedophiles who prey on innocent children are considered some of the lowest, and are dealt with very harshly by the law, and society.

"Homosexuality has a very rich history in the Muslim world. A number of caliphs openly chose favorites and paraded them around. One of them would make history. Captured and kept as ransom were the future Prince Vlad III Dracula (also known as Vlad III Ţepeş (tsepesh) or Vlad III the Impaler) and his brother Radu; they were kept as security for the obedience of Prince Vlad II Dracul to the Ottoman sultan. While captured, Vlad witnessed the, um, violation of his brother - who would later be known as Radu the Handsome. He was the Caliph's favorite, and led the Caliph's armies against his rebellious brother, Vlad.

In some societies during some areas, homosexuality was practically the norm, if not just tolerated or accepted. Of course, seeing the Muslim world's traditional view of (or, rather, against) women - breeders to kept out of sight and hearing - this is not so surprising."

Child brides are common, thanks to the actions of your self proclaimed prophet with 9 year old Aisha.

In case you missed my question from my previous post, what are your thoughts on the idea of a 50 year old man having sexual intercourse with an innocent 8 year old child?

And what about thighing with children as young as enfants.

Ayatollah Khomani,

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister." Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom"

Look forward to your direct response to my specific queries, which i'm sure will be forthcoming promptly.
20:21 February 25, 2012 by Orxan
bcterry,

"Of course they are, as we all know, muslims are not brought up to think for themselves, and are easily influenced by those damn Europeans and their wicked ways. "

---exactly...

In case you missed my question from my previous post, what are your thoughts on the idea of a 50 year old man having sexual intercourse with an innocent 8 year old child?

all of these is nonsense.Nobody know anything exactly about this .Once I read about it ,reading such things dont let us to belive the source.Because there are no enough real fact about it.

In generally I'm against child brides as you.We must intolerance to these cases all over the world.

It's fact that in most christian countries girls who are 12 or a wee above lose their virgin in early ages.How can you explain this fact?

I gotta say ,also there are lots of girls who are forced to marriage by their parents in between 15-18 in most muslim countries ,also in my own country Azerbaijan.Trust me ,their parents even dont know shape of earth round or square and most of them live in rural areas.If you are interested in my own opinion,I'm against to these...
20:51 February 25, 2012 by rise
Take your Islam-doctrines to a mosque instead! Maybe someone should start to cite, the black bible perhaps? How would you like to have that forced upon your faces just like you're forcing your own doctrines upon others'?

I can't believe how indoctrinated you all are! Like zombies misled..!
20:53 February 25, 2012 by bcterry
"In case you missed my question from my previous post, what are your thoughts on the idea of a 50 year old man having sexual intercourse with an innocent 8 year old child?

all of these is nonsense.Nobody know anything exactly about this .Once I read about it ,reading such things dont let us to belive the source.Because there are no enough real fact about it."

There are no real facts to support the koran either, nothing, not one single fact to support it, yet you believe it word for word.

Muhammad and Aisha come directly from the Sahih al-Bukhari hadith, which is considered by muslim scholars and the Sunnis muslims to be the most authentic, and they hold it second in islamic writings just behind the koran.

Sunni muslims number up to 90% of all muslims, most of them believe the bukhari to be the most authentic, and they don't consider it "nonsense" at all.

Are you saying they are all wrong?

I take it your not sunni.

"It's fact that in most christian countries girls who are 12 or a wee above lose their virgin in early ages.How can you explain this fact?"

That's a flat out lie.

The number is no more than muslim girls who are forced to marry at the same age, or engage in sex secretly in their teens.
22:17 February 25, 2012 by Orxan
That's a flat out lie.

The number is no more than muslim girls who are forced to marry at the same age, or engage in sex secretly in their teens.

man ,you are absolutely wrong.You were talking about smt deal with sex-watching ranking...and go and search about you.If you wont ,I gotta say , in sex capital of world,in Moscow above 70% of girls who are between 12-15 lose their virginity.Dont just deny it ,search and find out smt about it ,I'm sure you will know who are real paedophile,Really 100% you will know,but you cant express it with your tangue.It's just ashame,just ashame.

Extra infos to you:

Nowadays virginity is important in our society unless you dont have this tradition anymore.Young men never marry with girl who lost her virginity.If he did,We dont admit him a part of our society,But in your country a normal girl(of course not all of them,but most) is "explored" by at least 5 men till the wedding.The paradox is that you proud of it.

here you are,RELAXXXXXX...
22:36 February 25, 2012 by Sarahfaz
Wow. So much hate. Religious and political discussions are more fruitful when people use cool heads. But it is better to talk with a hot head than not to talk at all.

@Terry - Quran makes sense when read in context. None of the verses you mentioned above - when Surah (chapter) is read holistically - contradict Quran principle to value human life and kill only in self-defense.

For example, the verses you are interested in.

9.123 - Obviously a holy book that claims Islam is only true religion will command Muslims (people who follow Islam) to spread faith by fighting all those who disbelieve. "Fight" doesn't have to be physical. If you attack my faith, verbally or physically, as a Muslim I won't take abuse or turn other cheek.

9.4-9.5 - In barbaric times (maybe still in Afghanistan, Middle East, etc) safety from attack resulted from treaties between tribes. Quran says to honor treaties with idolators (non-Muslims). For those who break treaties or with whom no treaty is possible, Muslims are told to fight and subdue, and if they repent, pray and give charity, leave them alone. As far as I know, this verse is not literally implemented in developed countries, or in non-war situation.

3.85 - Simple and direct. As per Quran, salvation is only possible through surrender to God (or Allah or Yahweh or Creator). Can you expect the religious book of Islam to validate any other deity or religion?

As for your question, I'm not well read on the consummation of Prophet Mohamed's (pbuh) marriage to little Aisha or why she became his wife. I'll research Hadith and then get back to you.

Cheers,

Sarah
00:06 February 26, 2012 by strixy
@Orxan,

paedophilia is a serious criminal offence in the Western world while in Islam the prophet himself was a paedophile what is confirmed by Quran. You say there are no facts to support it. Well, such as there are no facts to support anything else that is written in Quran, such as that Allah exists :) Or can you actually prove that Allah exists but not that your prophet was a paedophile? Because to me both thesis are equal as driven from the same book that you consider to be holy.

I must disappoint you. I can see you are heavily into the gay thing but personally I ma not interested so you need to find a different object for our fantasies. Strange how you donæt see your own hypocrisy - homosexuality is wrong even though it is between two consenting adults butyou yourself worship someone who in his fifties had sex with a child. Disgusting.

And the primitive propaganda of heterosexuality and rapingchildren is nothing else but historically warranted way of making people procreate. If you actually knew anything about the origin of your own religion, youæd know that it was important for the Semitic tribes to grow in numbers because of 1.war 2.the need to cultvate the land.

In greece, on the contrart the population had to remain small because of limited land available for cultivation (rocky islands), therefore homosexuality was encouraged for obvious reasons.

But I get the impression that what I have written above is too complicated for you so I won't go any further into this.

With regards to European girls losing virginity at the early age you either watch too much prohibited porn and get the wrong idea or you read ideologically manipulated stuff. SOME girls engage in sex too early and this is recognised as a problem. Definitely not 70%, not even 20%. The fact that you wanted to do it at the age of 12 does not mean everyone does :P
08:14 February 26, 2012 by bcterry
9.123 - Obviously a holy book that claims Islam is only true religion will command Muslims (people who follow Islam) to spread faith by fighting all those who disbelieve. "Fight" doesn't have to be physical. If you attack my faith, verbally or physically, as a Muslim I won't take abuse or turn other cheek. "

You have no right to fight anyone for disbelieving.

Your book insults the hell out of others, and you reap what you sow.
09:03 February 26, 2012 by Orxan
strixy, you even say prove me God(Allah) exists,you are heteric .I know I can prove more thing about my religion ,my prophet, Quran.But believing in God ,this is up to you.There were lots of infidels who were enemy of our prophet such as you ,they said and wrote wrong things about my prophet.Most of them were and are damned jewish.Why are you trying to learn false infomation about our religion?

If you want to learn smt. about Islam,try to find books of MEVLANA and Fuzuli,Said Nursi .Man ,I know you are watching bbc ,euronews,cnn and other jewish ideology channels.stop it.

And I suggest you ,tell smt about roma catolic cathedral in the past.With your little stupid brain ,learn about cruelty of Roma cathedral .here is your past,but you are just braying about how you are humanist and tolerant people.of course we know
15:19 February 26, 2012 by bcterry
@Sarahfaz, Not sure what happened, but my post went up before i was finished.

Your book insults the hell out of others, and you reap what you sow.

"I give your religion as much respect as your religion gives me. Just that simple. I have every right to insult a religion that goes out of it's way to insult, judge and condemn me as an inadequate human being, which your religion does with self righteous gusto. When it comes to insults, your religion started this, not me. If your religion shut it's big mouth, so would i. But given that it doesn't, and given the enormous harm your religion has done in this world, i'd say that i have not only a right, but a duty to insult it, as does every other rational thinking person on this planet. The moment your your religion claims any kind of jurisdiction over my experience, you insult me on a level you can't even begin to comprehend. If i am not allowed to express my sincerely held belief that your religion is a crock of dangerous superstition garbage, than it seems to me, that i do not have religious freedom, but you do. I can assure you that i hold that view with a passion and intensity that can match anything you have to offer. It is a core defining and a pillar of my whole reality."

The above, is part of quote of someone i respect and admire for his courage.

There is much more, but you get the idea.

"3.85 - Simple and direct. As per Quran, salvation is only possible through surrender to God (or Allah or Yahweh or Creator). Can you expect the religious book of Islam to validate any other deity or religion?"

Yet you demand that we validate yours, and succumb to live under the dictates of your violent, intolerant fascist ideology as second class dhimmis.

You are being hypocritical.

"9.4-9.5 - In barbaric times (maybe still in Afghanistan, Middle East, etc) safety from attack resulted from treaties between tribes. Quran says to honor treaties with idolators (non-Muslims). For those who break treaties or with whom no treaty is possible, Muslims are told to fight and subdue, and if they repent, pray and give charity, leave them alone. As far as I know, this verse is not literally implemented in developed countries, or in non-war situation."

Not one word about a non-war situation, it is clear, concise, and open ended, and it demands that everyone repent, establish worship, and pay the poor-due, then, and ONLY then, will there be no consequences.

@Orxan, Are you saying that there is no validity or truth to the hadiths, and that they are all simply "nonsense"?

Yes or no?
21:16 February 26, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@orxan Who are you to judge gays, lesbians, Jewish people, Roman Catholics etc? How do you know there is not something they have done that Allah swt may like better than all you have done in life? Convey message of Islam does not mean pass judgment on non-Muslims (whose deeds may be better than yours)

@bcterry How am I being hypocritical? I am a self-professed practicing Muslim who follows Quran. Nothing in Quran tells me I cannot be civil to people who respect my way in life. All verses that allow fighting of any kind allow it in self-defense. I'll fight for family, religion and freedom if any are under threat from anyone like you and am willing to discuss any verse in Quran.

Muslims with a Hitler mindset are fringe elements who gained power as a result of war in Afghanistan, revolution in Egypt - basically political and economic upheaval. Like the KKK who gained influence after US Civil War. Mainstream Christians will not support a terrorist group like Ku Klux Klan unless their own families face attack.

My religion will never shut its mouth. It defines who I am. If you cannot respect me, you alienate all Muslims like me. Nearly 20% of world.

Many do not have access to education and cannot express themselves as you or I can. That does not mean they wish to kill or oppress you.

Majority of humanity, irrespective of nationality or religion, just want a safe environment and income to support families. In our world, disparate wealth distribution concentrates greatest safety and income among oil sheikhs and corporations, who have little desire to help common people, whether their people are Muslim, Christian, or atheist.

You asked about Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) and his wife Aisha. According to contemporary scholar Bakri, Arab culture in those days was hard and infested with war. Marriage ensured peaceful intention. Women customarily married young across religions and cultures. Scholars claim Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, was the only virgin wife Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) ever married. She was his final wife and most beloved. Scholars state she continued to play with dolls and games after marriage and later grew up to become a public speaker (unheard of from a woman at that time period). Aisha memorized the Quran and was well versed in Sunnah. She spread message of Islam all her life, which lasted 50 years after death of Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him). Another Hadith related by contemporary scholar Nouman Ali Khan relates that Prophet (pbuh) asked for Aisha's permission before leaving to receive revelations from God. He left her side after being granted permission. The example is of courtesy, respect, and acknowledgement a husband should give to wife. As per Quran and Hadith, a Muslim woman can accept or deny marriage to a man, and divorce him if there are irreconcilable differences. Aisha remained with husband until he died, and preached his beliefs until own death.
22:19 February 26, 2012 by bcterry
"a Muslim woman can accept or deny marriage to a man, and divorce him if there are irreconcilable differences. Aisha remained with husband until he died, and preached his beliefs until own death. "

A 6 year old CHILD!!!, is capable of making such a decision? Ridiculous.

The question i asked, which you completely avoided, is, "What are your thoughts on the idea of a man in his 50's having intercourse with a 9 year old CHILD???"

So, ???

"Muslims with a Hitler mindset are fringe elements who gained power as a result of war in Afghanistan, revolution in Egypt - basically political and economic upheaval. Like the KKK who gained influence after US Civil War. Mainstream Christians will not support a terrorist group like Ku Klux Klan unless their own families face attack."

Muslims have taken control of over 50 countries and turned them into islamic states, (with designs on expansion and world domination), that dictate the rules according to their fascist ideology.

Persecution against non-muslims is happening on a regular basis, without prosecution by the state. i.e. it's condoned.

The KKK have no power or authority, and they have been harshly prosecuted by American justice, and the American people.

@bcterry How am I being hypocritical?"

I clearly pointed out how muslims, of which you are one, are hypocritical in my previous post. "

"All verses that allow fighting of any kind allow it in self-defense."

Absolutely wrong, there are many passages in the koran and hadiths, that call for fighting against innocents who have done nothing to warrant it.

"My religion will never shut its mouth."

And i will continue to speak out against any bigotry, intolerance or insults that come my way from your fascist ideology.

When your ideology ceases this aggression, i will cease to defend against it.

It's just that simple.

@Orxan, Are you saying that there is no validity or truth to the hadiths, and that they are all simply "nonsense"? It's very simple question, or are you just going to run from it? BTW, i searched for your Moscow 70% thing and found nothing.

Look forward to your link.
23:13 February 26, 2012 by Crogotiils
"It's fact that in most christian countries girls who are 12 or a wee above lose their virgin in early ages.How can you explain this fact?"

"In Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States, approximately 25% of 15 year olds and 50% of 17 year olds have had sex." ... Your "fact" is a lie and it's not common in western countries to start sex at age of 12 or so. And when teenagers start having sex they do it with boys close to their own age.

By the way "age at first marriage" is around 30 in european countries, so of course women have had sex when they get married. After all they are free to do as they please, aka gender equality.

"EU owe their safety from USSR..."

No... USSR wasn't even threat to us in a long long time since they were flat broke. USSR was out of money and people were tired of hunger and oppression. Some question if afghanistan situation had any effect on breaking, my opinion is that the lost in afghanistan helped since USSR lost some more money and lost was demoralizing them even further, but make no mistake, USSR was already breaking up from the inside.

And holocaust denial:

"Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 17 countries: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[180] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States"."

EU says holocaust denial "should be made punishable", they are not forcing it:

"The United Kingdom has twice rejected Holocaust denial laws" "Denmark and Sweden have also rejected such legislation."

But of course muslims support holocaust denial like irans president.

- "In a December 2005 speech, Ahmadinejad said that a legend was fabricated and had been promoted to protect Israel."

- "When asked if the Holocaust was a myth, he responded "I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it"."

So he is convinced by fairy tale, but not by facts. A true muslim :).

And what's with that extreme gay-phobia? seems like someone is trying to come out of the closet.
01:02 February 27, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

"A 6 year old CHILD!!!, is capable of making such a decision?"

No, her father arranged the marriage. After she grew up, she chose to stay in marriage. Maybe it is ridiculous to you living in Canada in 2012, but for people at that time, it wasn't extraordinary.

I'm not trying to avoid any question about my beliefs. "What are your thoughts on the idea of a man in his 50's having intercourse with a 9 year old CHILD???" In today's world, I don't think any man (or woman) in his/her 50s can legitimately claim he/she is doing a service to society by marrying a 9 year old child. In the 600s, girls were married so young that one in 50s would be widow or divorcee. Prophet (pbuh) married only widows and divorcees until Aisha (ra). As for thoughts on the intercourse part of their marriage, reality differs from books. I don't know what their reality was, but after his death, she continued to spread husband's beliefs.

Which 50 countries have Muslims "taken control of," and who did they take the control from?

Persecution is not prosecuted in third world states because of widespread corruption and lack of education. Extreme hypocritical religious views contribute to it, you are right. The issues are caused by economic distress and corrupt governments more than religion though. Non-muslims become inadvertent scapegoats, as African Americans were for whites in the American South. Justice in former Confederate states was corrupt then. Nowadays with improved justice, gang violence is limited to slums. Most muslim states are in need of improved justice system. Islamic ideology does not block better justice system. Christian ideology did not block better justice system when KKK was widespread in the South either.

Majority of educated Muslim civilians are tolerant of non-Muslims, same way majority of educated non-Muslim civilians are tolerant of Muslims.

You did not point out how I am hypocritical. My ideology does not tell me to demand anything from you. It says to convey philosophy to you. That's it. Accepting or rejecting it is totally your choice. The only way I can use force is in self-defense, ie. if you attack my house or family or prevent ME from practicing faith. Harshness towards disbelievers is if one is prevented from praying, giving charity, covering body, or other nonviolent self-expression. Unprovoked violence from both Muslims and non-Muslims should be prosecuted. The egg tossing group was rounded up by security, and that's fine.

Tell me which verses in Quran say to kill or hurt innocents, because I have never read them.

Feel free to speak out against bigotry, intolerance or insults. That's an inalienable right you have as a human. What I don't appreciate is lumping all people of a faith together. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists etc are not all same, and do not practice philosophy same way.
01:20 February 27, 2012 by strixy
@Orxan,

"strixy, you even say prove me God(Allah) exists,you are heteric ."

No, an ATHEIST. And guess what, I have a right to be one. I do not believe in your god nor in any other god and the best thing is that you cannot PROVE to me that your gods exist. If you think a sword could convince me, you are wrong. :)

"I know I can prove more thing about my religion ,my prophet, Quran."

That's it, you can't. You can't prove a single thing. Yet you believe in this fantasy so much you are willing to kill for it. How stupid is this?

"But believing in God ,this is up to you.There were lots of infidels who were enemy of our prophet such as you ,they said and wrote wrong things about my prophet.Most of them were and are damned jewish.Why are you trying to learn false infomation about our religion? "

Eh? Either it's your English or you're as antisemitic as you are homophobic.

I simply think your Quran is a bunch of fairly tales and you cannot do anything to prove to me that it is true. Same goes for other 'holy' books, just to be clear.

I know Quran tells you to hate Jews but to say that everyone who challenges your religious propaganda is Jewish just proves how ignorant you are.

"If you want to learn smt. about Islam,try to find books of MEVLANA and Fuzuli,Said Nursi .Man ,I know you are watching bbc ,euronews,cnn and other jewish ideology channels.stop it."

I have read enough and believe me, I do not follow mainstream Western tv channels. I simply despise all religion and yours especially as it is extremely violent and intolerant. Why? Because of people like you. I have spoken to some pretty extreme Christians but extreme Muslims are even more violent.

"And I suggest you ,tell smt about roma catolic cathedral in the past.With your little stupid brain ,learn about cruelty of Roma cathedral .here is your past,but you are just braying about how you are humanist and tolerant people.of course we know"

Europe has learns from our mistakes. You people just keep repeating yours. You keep ruining every single Muslim country and you want to live in Western democracies. Why? To turn it into a mess like you have turned your countires?

There is place for everyone in Europe but not for extremists of any kind. As someone rightly said, you reap what you sow. You are hateful towards me and I will repay you with the same.

@Sarahfaz,

Hasn't it occured to you that preaching to fight people for disbelieving is the fastest way to make them hate your religion even more? Christians tried it in Americas and it did not work.
02:30 February 27, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy Islam doesn't preach to fight people for disbelieving. It says disbelief in God is the worst of sins. As an atheist who rejects belief altogether, according to Islam, you are the "lowest of creatures." But that doesn't give me, as just another human, any right to judge you. I cannot take on any of the qualities of the Creator I believe in. Judgment is one of those qualities.

The only way I may physically fight you, according to ideology of Islam, is if you assault or oppress me. As long as you do not attack me, I cannot do you any harm for being an atheist. Everyone is given power of choice. Otherwise, what would there be to judge on Judgment Day? I know you don't believe in a judgment day or afterlife, but for somebody who does believe, reckoning is up to Creator, not humans.

Extremists are intolerant by definition, whatever philosophy they follow. I agree with you that fighting increases hate. Peaceful co-existence is only possible with mutual tolerance and good will.
09:17 February 27, 2012 by Crogotiils
But how do the muslims interpret "oppressing" and "attacking", quite losely?

for example burning of qurans was obviously an attack or oppression:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Afghanistan_Quran_burning_protests

But why torch your own city and get your own people killed?

Sarahfaz:

" As an atheist who rejects belief altogether, according to Islam, you are the "lowest of creatures." But that doesn't give me, as just another human, any right to judge you."

.. but does it give you right to judge as a muslim?

" Everyone is given power of choice."

and when the choice is not to follow your god?

So in your opinion those 15 men who attacked Lars Vilks did wrong and were not following the teachings of quran?

Maybe you can make orxan understand that he's living against the teachings of quran by hating gays and jews?
13:57 February 27, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@Crogotills

If you scroll up, the first thing I tried was making Orxan understand he's living against teaching of Quran by hating gays and jews, but he ignored me.

"does it give you right to judge as a muslim?" No. Only God has right to judge faith.

"when the choice is not to follow your god?" That's between human and Creator.

"So in your opinion those 15 men who attacked Lars Vilks did wrong and were not following the teachings of quran?" Yes. The correct method was boycott, which local Islamic Culture Association (Islamiska kulturföreningen) and Karlstad Young Muslims (Unga muslimer i Karlstad) did. Islamiska kulturföreningen and Unga muslimer i Karlstad followed Islam properly.

Best,

Sarah
14:47 February 27, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz.

Who exactly are you trying to fool by saying the fight does not have to be physical?

9.123 - O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). "

9.4-5 - Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (4) Then, when the sacred months have passed, SLAY THE IDOLATERS wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Both quotes are yours from Quran and forgive me, but slaying is physical.

I can only feel sorry for you for following a religion that tells you people who do not believe in what you believe are 'the lowest of all creatures'. Alike, to me 'the lowest of all creatures' are those who chose an unproven fantasy over reality and decide that their fantasy is better than others' fantasy and therefore they are superior. There is no space for such conceit in the Western world.

And one question for you: SINCE YOU OPENLY ADMIT THAT BECAUSE OF MY BELIEVES (OR LACK OF THEM) I AM 'THE LOWEST OF ALL CREATURES' FOR MUSLIMS, HOW CAN YOU THEN DEMAND I RESPECT MUSLIMS? Respect is a two way street. If I am scum in your eyes, it will work both ways.

"The only way I may physically fight you, according to ideology of Islam, is if you assault or oppress me."

Opress leaves a wide gap for definition. All Islamic terrorists felt opressed by the West and therefore it was justified for them to claim innocent lives. I see.

"Extremists are intolerant by definition, whatever philosophy they follow."

Don't fool yourself. Islamic extremists have claimed more lives than any others. This will not win Islam any sympathy. Moreso, I expect once the straw that broke the camel's back is there, there may be another Holocaust just with Muslims as victims. Some people become really radicalised when they read and hear about the atrocities commited by Islamic fanatics. If you want to change it, moderate Muslims should engage in condemning those attacks. Sadly, when the extremists murder, burn and lynch, moderate Muslims stay silent.
16:04 February 27, 2012 by bcterry
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

There are a half dozen other hadith quotes that also confirm this.

Now either Aisha was telling the truth, or she was a liar.

You choose.

First you say,

As per Quran and Hadith, a Muslim woman can accept or deny marriage to a man, and divorce him if there are irreconcilable differences. "

I call you on it,

"A 6 year old CHILD!!!, is capable of making such a decision?"

Then i get this version,

"No, her father arranged the marriage."

Her father was muhammad's brother, muhammad wanted her, and he had no choice.

If your self proclaimed "prophet" was who he said he was, how come your allah didn't set him straight about the sick perversion of having sex with an innocent CHILD!!!?

"Persecution is not prosecuted in third world states because of widespread corruption and lack of education."

Third world only?,..... please.

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2011/05/the_13_worst_countries_for_christian_persecution.html

Excerpt,

"Any careful reader of world news knows that the great majority of religious persecution in the world is directed at Christians and Jews.

It should be noted that of the top 50 worst offending countries on the World Watch List, almost 80% are Muslim-majority nations. Muslims are guilty of two related lies: that Muslims are persecuted in non-Muslim countries and that Christians are not persecuted in Muslim countries."

Also, google,

"Miuslims teach their children to hate"

"You did not point out how I am hypocritical. My ideology does not tell me to demand anything from you.

It says to convey philosophy to you. That's it."

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." Translation from the Noble Quran

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...".

@Orxan,

You call others cowards, yet when asked a simple question, you scurry for the exit.

Laughable.

I ask you for a link to your 70%, again nothing, which leads me to believe your assertion was a lie.

There's a surprise.
17:38 February 27, 2012 by Crogotiils
Sarahfaz:

"If you scroll up, the first thing I tried was making Or..."

Sorry, missed that one, I wasn't playing any thicker than I am ;).

"...If you cannot respect me, you alienate all Muslims like me. Nearly 20% of world...."

You have been answering questions a lot, even dumb ones, thank you for that. And honestly, I was not expecting you to tell me that those 15 muslim men did wrong. I live in non-islam country and we have used to see that muslim does not criticise other muslims doings, never ever. Exactly the same that strixy mentioned:

"...when the extremists murder, burn and lynch, moderate Muslims stay silent."

So... the problem is that from our perspective "muslims like you", who admit that a muslim may have done wrong to non-believer, are minority.

If we go to muslim country then it is clear to us that we follow your rules, when you come to our country we expect you to do the same. "Your" country your laws, our country our laws, as stated, respect is two way street.

When muslims consider non-believers and people of other religions "lowest of low" and on arrival demand us to make changes to our culture.. well let's just say "homie doesn't play that".

Long story short, you can imagine that may have a slight effect on how we see the muslim population.

But real question is, "what are, moderate muslims going to do about muslim extremists?". Since if we intervene it will only make things worse and Vilks kind of "humor" will not stop until muslims gain more tolerance ("When in Rome do as the Romans do").
18:09 February 27, 2012 by bcterry
"My religion will never shut its mouth. It defines who I am. If you cannot respect me, you alienate all Muslims like me. Nearly 20% of world. "

"It says disbelief in God is the worst of sins. As an atheist who rejects belief altogether, according to Islam, you are the "lowest of creatures."

You believe in this, and then you demand respect?

"But that doesn't give me, as just another human, any right to judge you. I cannot take on any of the qualities of the Creator I believe in. Judgment is one of those qualities. "

The simple fact that you adhere to that believe that, and commit to it completely, makes you judgmental.

You really don't get it, do you?
19:36 February 27, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@Crogotiils

Moderate Muslims are abused by extremists on both sides. Do you wonder why they are silent? I'm a Muslim New Yorker and came upon this Swedish newspaper by accident. Muslim countries and non-Muslim culture are foreign but interesting concepts to me. Citizenship and religion are separate for us. Nothing stops me from being American and practicing Islam.

@bcterry

There is no abrogation if read holistically. Taking lines out of context serves no purpose other than to form assumptions on Islam and Muslims.

8.39 - And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

9.29 - Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

-I think you refer to 9.29 when you claim abrogation. There is no contradiction. Fight is verbal as long as disbelievers' intolerance is verbal. Physical when intolerance is physical. According to dictionary "tribute" means "an act, statement, or gift that is intended to show gratitude, respect, or admiration." If you show respect for faith, fighting stops. Holy Quran 109.6 - "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion." Muslims believe in Quran as a unified whole, not contradictory parts.

"If your self proclaimed "prophet" was who he said he was, how come your allah didn't set him straight about the sick perversion of having sex with an innocent CHILD!!!?" Allah swt sent over 100,000 prophets to humanity. Each Prophet spoke to his people in a way they could comprehend. Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, Noah, Job, etc (peace be upon them) all conveyed message in terms people of those societies could understand. While Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) treated many wives fairly, no man I know treats more than one woman fairly. Some can't even treat one well. So while I understand lessons can be drawn from Prophet's (pbuh) marriages, I'll expect monogamy because I personally think men today are incapable of keeping multiple wives happy.

@strixy I'm discussing Islam. If you think I'm trying to fool you, disappear like Orxan did. I won't change my faith to suit anyone. If you have a specific question about verses 9.123 and 9.4-5, that's fine. My faith helps me to be a better person, and it makes no difference to me if you feel sorry for me. I do not need your sympathy or understanding. Let me live in peace, and I will let you live in peace.

I did not claim you are the "lowest of creatures" for "Muslims." I claimed an atheist (person who does not believe in God) is the "lowest of creatures" according to Islamic philosophy. There's a difference. No human is scum in my eyes. I respect humanity. Your choices on faith are between you and the God you don't believe in, not between you and me.
20:00 February 27, 2012 by Orxan
Sarahfaz,I'm not disappeared.I was bored with the discussing these problems with a bunch of oafs.Really....they are deaf ,they are blind ,they cant see or hear the truth.Most of them are infidel people ,so they cant have any spiritual value.There's no need to talk over it anymore...

And I want to finish my 'speech' with my best quote said by Mevlana :COME TO ME ,IT DOESNT MATTER WHO YOU ARE.
20:07 February 27, 2012 by bcterry
"I'm not trying to avoid any question about my beliefs. "What are your thoughts on the idea of a man in his 50's having intercourse with a 9 year old CHILD???"

"In today's world, I don't think any man (or woman) in his/her 50s can legitimately claim he/she is doing a service to society by marrying a 9 year old child. "

It wasn't marriage at 9 years old, (the marriage was at the age of 6), although that is perverted on it's own merit. in ANY period in history, it was SEXUAL INTERCOURSE with a 9 year old CHILD!!!

My question was a simple direct one,

"what are your thoughts on a man in his 50's having SEXUAL INTERCOURSE with a 9 year old CHILD???

Replying with a matter of fact indifferent remark like," I don't think any man (or woman) in his/her 50s can legitimately claim he/she is doing a service to society by marrying a 9 year old child." just won't cut it, yet that remark alone is stunning on it's face.

I want a direct, specific answer, to my direct specific question, not a round about dissertation.
21:54 February 27, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz

You appear to be an educated person,so I am inclined to think that you are well aware of the fact that your words do not make much sense yet you are hoping we will buy your tangled explanations.

"@strixy I'm discussing Islam. If you think I'm trying to fool you, disappear like Orxan did."

Oh, so now we are getting personal? I think you are fooling yourself, my dear, that's all.

"I won't change my faith to suit anyone."

That's perfectly fine by me. So why exactly do you give yourself the right not to change your faith but to change the faith of others? Is it okay for Muslims to convert others with force while you yourself state you will not change your religion? It is plain hypocritical to say this and to adhere to a book that says:

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." Translation from the Noble Quran

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth..".

You don't get it, do you?

Muslims will never gain any respect among Europeans no matter how dim our politicians seem to be simply because the modrate minority stays silent when the extreme majority commits murder, rape, lynch and arson.

Plus the idea behing getting Muslims into Europe was to destroy right-wng parties with the help from new electorate. Because this is not working, if I were you I would pull myself together before something horrible happens.

"I did not claim you are the "lowest of creatures" for "Muslims."

I claimed an atheist (person who does not believe in God) is the "lowest of creatures" according to Islamic philosophy."

Seriously? And what is the difference here?

I am an atheist so it does refer to me.

Thank you for revealing so openly how tolerant you Muslims really are, I will not feel bad anymore repaying you guys with the same attitude :)

"There's a difference. No human is scum in my eyes. I respect humanity."

No, you don't. You don't respect humanity of different faith or of no faith at all. You can fool yourself into thinking that you do but the truth is you feel far superior.

And just to remind you - proclaiming oneself to be a prophet is a mortal sign in Islam, so i wonder how you guys cope with this kind of dichotomy. I have no doubt you cope very well judging from you other posts on here... .
22:18 February 27, 2012 by bcterry
Sarahfaz,

"-I think you refer to 9.29 when you claim abrogation. There is no contradiction. Fight is verbal as long as disbelievers' intolerance is verbal. Physical when intolerance is physical. According to dictionary "tribute" means "an act, statement, or gift that is intended to show gratitude, respect, or admiration."

Your religion wants a tribute of respect and admiration from me, when it shows absolutely none for my beliefs.

Farcical hypocrisy.

"If you show respect for faith, fighting stops."

Not just any belief, but it states specifically the "religion of truth" your religion, islam

So until i show respect for YOUR religion, you will fight me until i do.

Talk about insecure, islam has to force others to respect it by fighting.

That's what a juvenile school yard bully does.

If the shoe fits, ..................

I have absolutely NO respect for ANY violent, dictatorial, subjugating, bigoted, intolerant, fascist ideology, i'm kind of funny that way, and islam goes right the the head of the class in that regard.
22:58 February 27, 2012 by strixy
And I have spent far too many years dealing with domestic violence cases in Muslim familier to buy this cr*p about women being free to decide who they marry and to divorce them. A woman cannot divorce her husband in Islam, only the husband can and all he has to do is say he doesn't want his wife anymore 3 times.

Muslims like to talk about respect while they blatantly don't get that respect is a two way street. If you are prepared to fight me until I pay a tribute to your religion, the last thing you'll get from me is respect.
23:03 February 27, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@Orxan Your religion doesn't give you right to judge people to be "oafs" "infidel" "deaf" "blind." Leave judgment to God. I'm a practicing Muslim and I know some atheists with better grasp on truth than some Muslims. My interaction with Jewish people and gay men increased tolerance. Knowing them did not decrease faith. I am not going to become lesbian or convert to Judaism just because I share interests with gay guys and Jewish people like baking and skiing. I'm still Muslim.

@strixy You misquoted the Quran. Look at post #119 for correct translation of 8.39 and 9.29. If you cannot see the difference in the translations, then anything else I explain to you will not make sense either. I make no claim to be superior to you. In Islam, no black is better than a white, no Arab is better than a non-Arab, no human is superior to any other human. The more pious are closer to God, that's all. If merely discussing Islam makes you think it is being forced on you, that's not my fault.

@bcterry Your opinion of the ideology doesn't matter much to me. As I have tried to explain to you without success in the past, fear and hate are caused by ignorance. If you knew Muslims personally, your fear/hate might diminish.

I only care if my beautiful religion is misrepresented, by Muslims or by non-Muslims. If I didn't care, I wouldn't comment here. Because where I live, people of diverse faiths have no problem adapting to each other.
23:28 February 27, 2012 by bcterry
@bcterry Your opinion of the ideology doesn't matter much to me. As I have tried to explain to you without success in the past, fear and hate are caused by ignorance. If you knew Muslims personally, your fear/hate might diminish. "

You can't even bring yourself to condemn the perversion of a 50 year old man having SEXUAL INTERCOURSE with a CHILD.

PATHETIC, you must be so proud.

That tells me all i need to know about where you're coming from.

Sad and pathetic that your mind has been destroyed like this.

You're as much of a runner as your your buddy Orxan.

You have my pity.

And knock off the crap about ignorance, fear and hate, no one is buying it any more, and your only exposing your blatant hypocrisy.

"I only care if my beautiful religion is misrepresented,"

Seems to me that you and Orxam are the only ones here that are guilty of that.

Islam cannot hide behind 7th century ignorance no more.
23:44 February 27, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry That child grew up to preach the same faith after husband's death, because he treated her well. In 600s, it wasn't perverse. I clearly stated that certain practices that made sense then do not make sense now.

Thank you for caring about my mind. I do not need your pity. You and Orxan are not very different. You both do not see humanity in people past their ideology. Islam works for him as it works for me. If it does not work for you, that's your call.
00:43 February 28, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz.

Okay, so if paedophile treats his victim well then it's okay to have sex with a 9-year old? Splendid.

What do you mean by the fact that she could have divoced him? Muslim women cannot divorce their husbands now, are you sure they could 600 years ago? If so, then you guys are moving in the wrong direction.

Islam works for Orxan and for you because you are like-minded. The only difference is Orxan speak his mind while you build rhetorical figures. The content however remains the same.

Do not call for respect if your philosophy calls some people 'the lowest of all creatures'. Be prepared to take what you dish out.
01:14 February 28, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy I noticed your comment #124 after posting 125 and 127. If you deal in domestic violence, then you see clearly that some Muslim men do not practice Islam as per philosophy. They deny women rights they have no authority to deny. If the woman had access to education, she would know for herself what her rights are as a Muslim as well as a citizen of the country she is from.

As per Quran and Hadith, a Muslim woman has just as much right to divorce a man as the man does. The only catch for both is that if they want to get remarried, they cannot do it easily. Each must marry someone else, divorce him/her, and then they can remarry. So divorce is usually final.

Like Crogotiils said so wisely, educated Muslims need to challenge extremism, whether it comes from Muslims or non-Muslims.
01:20 February 28, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz,

I suggest you focus on challenging Muslim extremism first because somehow the majority of terrorists and religious fanatics that threaten the peace of others are Muslims.
01:56 February 28, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy Sure. But education is good for everybody. Muslims and non-Muslims.
03:56 February 28, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz,

well I can see you are tring to turn this argument upside down. The point is, Muslims are guests in the Western world. They ought to educate themselves and 'do as the Romans do'. If not, there is no compulsion to come and live in Europe.

Here is what one of former Quran scholars, currently a Christian convert Magdi Allam has to say about Quran. No doubts he knows it very well:

"The very acts of Mohammed, documented by history, and which the Muslim faithful themselves do not deny, testify to massacres and exterminations perpetrated by the prophet. Therefore, the Quran is incompatible with fundamental human rights and non-negotiable values. In the past, I tried to make myself the spokesman of an Islam moderate in itself only to discover his efforts doomed to failure."

Since the vast majority of Muslims seem to be following the radical Islam, I suggest you first sort this issue out and then demand respect. Because if you sow wind, your reap storm. Until moderate Muslims take the responsibility for their less moderate brothers and sisters I see no chances of success.
05:37 February 28, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@ strixy

Vast majority of Muslims are peaceful but mind their own business. 

Are native Europeans who convert to Islam guests in Europe? And 3rd 4th 5th generation Muslims, are they also guests in Europe? 
14:48 February 28, 2012 by bcterry
"You both do not see humanity in people past their ideology."

Wrong, i have no problem with any good decent human being who does no harm, no matter what they believe, who does not put themselves above others, and believes in complete equality for all. "

Can you say the same?

" As an atheist who rejects belief altogether, according to Islam, you are the "lowest of creatures."

If i called you the lowest of all creatures", then demand you respect me, would you give me that respect i demanded, or would you feel insulted and tell me to hit the road?

If in fact you believe that quote that you presented to us, i would consider that a personal insult from you for quoting it.

If not, will you denounce that quote as being wrong?
15:56 February 28, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

Yes, I can say the same, because faith is a personal choice. My faith is my choice, your faith or lack of faith is your choice. 

Why would I live a disciplined, morally strict life (no alcohol, drugs, dating, lying, bikini, etc) or offer prayers and give money away if I wasn't trying to avoid being the "lowest of creatures" for God? Trust me, I'm human and felt frustration because I dearly love to swim but I found a solution and chose to follow faith.  As a Muslim, I believe in Judgment Day, in heaven and hell, and in Quran being unchanged word of God.  Some Hadith may be inaccurate, but so far I have not been able to find any contradiction between Quran and science. I have no problem questioning my own faith so it does not bother me if you question it. In the end, one cannot scientifically prove or disprove existence of Creator, and it is up to individual to accept or reject faith.  
16:31 February 28, 2012 by bcterry
Let me try this once more, or will you continue to refuse to answer them like the others?

Two very simple, direct questions.

"If i called you the lowest of all creatures", then demand you respect me, would you give me the respect i demanded, or would you feel insulted and tell me to hit the road?"

Not answered.

"If in fact you believe that quote that you presented to us, i would consider that a personal insult from you for quoting it.

If not, will you denounce that quote as being wrong? "

Not answered

"Some Hadith may be inaccurate, "

Like the ones you choose to be inaccurate?

The others that you choose to use to suit your argument, they of course are.

Very convenient for you.
18:26 February 28, 2012 by strixy
'Vast majority of Muslims are peaceful but mind their own business.'

Maybe time to stop being cowards then and tsake responsibility for the more radical ones? Otherwise I cannot see how Muslims cana sk for respect if they cannot sort their own demons out but demand others put up with them.

Your statement about not drinking, not dating etc is simply pathetic. I also don't drink, don't date, engage in charitable work, do not wear skimply clothes etc. Yet, I am the lowest of all creatures because I refuse to bow in front of some idea that people call god. This is so hypocritical I cannot even believe you actually wrote it. Do you think Muslims have a monopoly for certain lifestyle?

Shame you do it for god though, I do it for myself. :P

So, to paraphrase your words - would you respect someone who states that Muslims are the lowest of allc reatures (like you referred to atheists, namely, me)? YES or NO?
19:54 February 28, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry Fear of the unknown is the most common kind of phobia. Fears, whether of spiders, ideology, or heights, are unreasonable and one cannot reason a person out of them. When you stand on a cliff, meet a Muslim, or stand in front of a spider web, you may or may not realize fear was unfounded. Good and bad people belong to every culture and ideology.

@strixy I don't insult atheist neighbors and they don't insult God. Respect is a two way street, like you wrote. If they ask about Islam, I answer questions honestly. Nobody has a monopoly on any lifestyle, but Muslim lifestyle is more strict than most. I know this because I have grown up around people of every faith and no faith. You did not answer my question. Are native Muslim Europeans (Muslim before 1900s or converts to Islam) guests in Europe/Sweden?
20:41 February 28, 2012 by bcterry
@Sarahfaz,

Again you do not have the courage stand up and answer a simple question.

Assumption?, you do indeed agree with the quote that unbelievers are the "lowest of all creatures", therefore you are exactly what you accused me of being, that is, "you do not see humanity in people past their ideology."

That makes you a blatant hypocrite, and you have absolutely NO right to say you " have no problem with any good decent human being who does no harm, no matter what they believe, who does not put themselves above others, and believes in complete equality for all. "

You do indeed put yourself above others.

Also, your quote is a direct personal insult to those of us engaged in this conversation.

Also, as you refuse to condemn the act of a 50 year old pedophile having sexual intercourse with an INNOCENT CHILD!!!, means that you condone such actions.

SHAME,.......... on all counts!

Also, your little school yard diatribe about fears and phobias, is a desperate attempt to make this into something it is not.

It's childish.
21:31 February 28, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry I'm in the waiting room of a doctor's office at the moment. I'm Muslim, the doctor is Jewish, and the person sitting across from me is neither.

I can freely exchange pleasantries or ideas, can hold a door for a person in a wheelchair, irrespective of what their faith is. That does not change the fact that as per my philosophy, a person who does not believe in God is the "lowest of creatures." You do not understand the difference between how humans are commanded to treat each other in Islam versus the link between human and his/her Creator.

Based on previous comments, I'm not sure I can effectively convey that difference to you. Whether it is fear or prejudice, you feel threatened by my way in life.
22:06 February 28, 2012 by bcterry
"That does not change the fact that as per my philosophy, a person who does not believe in God is the "lowest of creatures."

Pompous, arrogant, bigoted, intolerant, hateful, EXTREMELY insulting and holier than though.

How dare you!

You truly represent the true nature of your sick ideology, and just who in the hell do you think you are?

And then you have audacity to ask for RESPECT???
22:07 February 28, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz

You still have not answered my question:

So, to paraphrase your words - would you respect someone who states that Muslims are the lowest of allc reatures (like you referred to atheists, namely, me)? YES or NO?

Is it too difficult for you?

Also, my other question about Mohammed's self-proclaimed prophecy in the light of the fact that such a claim is punishable by death also goes unanswered... .

And please stop this mantra about fearing the unknown because I have met and befriended many Muslims and it does not change my view on radical Islam in any way.

No, people born and raised in Europe are not guests but if they decide to radicalise and become intolerant they are definitely not welcome.
22:50 February 28, 2012 by Value
lans vilks is just an idiot. he only deserves to be completely ignored.
02:05 February 29, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry @strixy

According to Islam:

1. Islam is truth - obeying God is salvation - each human has free will to accept or reject it

2. Muslims must be courteous to all - should not submit to oppression

Extremists ignore #1 & #2, use intimidation and coercion. Radical Islam is not justified by Quran.

When you wrote I represent true ideology, you gave me the best compliment. Telling a Muslim she is truly following religion is the nicest thing you can say. It is not easy to be disciplined, whether you do it for yourself or for God.
12:59 February 29, 2012 by bcterry
1. Islam is truth - obeying God is salvation - each human has free will to accept or reject it

2. Muslims must be courteous to all - should not submit to oppression

Extremists ignore #1 & #2, use intimidation and coercion. Radical Islam is not justified by Quran."

Please stop your lies, hypocrisy, and spreading hate.
16:47 February 29, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz,

"I don't insult atheist neighbors and they don't insult God. Respect is a two way street, like you wrote. If they ask about Islam, I answer questions honestly."

Of course you do by speaking openly that according to your religion atheists are the lowest of all creatures. And then you have the cheek to demand respect?!

If you religion is so hateful and insulting to others, do not expect to be given respect in return.
17:34 February 29, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy You wanted to know the philosophy. The primary criteria in Abrahamic faiths is belief in monotheism.. in one God. Core defining principle. By rejecting that belief, you reject the principle on which religion is founded. Why would religion see you as anything BUT the lowest then? But if you don't care about religion, why care how religion sees you? You can try to avoid every Muslim, Christian and Jewish person your whole life, but it may be hard
19:23 February 29, 2012 by bcterry
Islam is the ONLY religion in the world that has a developed doctrine theology in law, that mandates violence against unbelievers.

On September 25, 2002, a group of armed Muslims in Karachi, Pakistan entered the office of a Christian charity, tied seven workers to chairs and then brutally murdered them. According to Muslim witnesses, the Islamists "showed no haste. They took a good 15 minutes in segregating the Christians and making sure that each one of their targets received the most horrific death."

The killing of non-Muslim humanitarian workers by devout followers of Islam occurs quite often. The executions are not usually celebrated by Muslims, but there is rarely if any outrage expressed over slaughter in the name of Islam by a community renowned for its peevishness.

But beneath the rosy assurances from Muslim apologists that Islam is about peace and tolerance lies a much darker reality that better explains the violence and deeply-rooted indifference. Quite simply, the Quran teaches supremacy, hate and hostility.

The Ayatollah Khomeini, who dedicated his entire life to studying Islam, said that non-Muslims rank somewhere between "feces" and the "sweat of a camel that has consumed impure food." Small wonder. The Quran dehumanizes non-Muslims, describing them as "animals" and beasts:

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)
21:17 February 29, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry Do I sound like I'm offering any apology for my beliefs?

In Islam, every human is responsible for his/her own actions and behavior. Not the behavior or sins of anyone else. When I sit in court for jury duty, I'm fulfilling my responsibility as a citizen. If the brutal killing of humanitarian workers occurs in my community, I'll listen to testimony in court and put perpetrators behind bars or on death row, if I happen to be one of the jurors. I refuse to accept guilt for the crime of any other human, Muslim or otherwise.

My ideology suits me and I practice it. I will continue to practice it. Radical preachers and abusive husbands, as I wrote multiple times before, will lose their influence if people are given access to education and are able to create a stable justice system in their communities/nations.

To understand this...

98.6 - Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

Please read post #147. Describes what Creator says is in store for the created who do not believe in Him. It is about Afterlife. Has nothing to do with human interaction in this life. Read books in context.. don't take soundbites.
21:29 February 29, 2012 by bcterry
@bcterry Do I sound like I'm offering any apology for my beliefs? "

W
01:40 March 1, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz

"@strixy You wanted to know the philosophy."

Aha, ok, so it is my fault that you have offended me because I shouldn't have asked?

Shame you don't see that maybe a religion that is so full of hate is not worth following..

But I suspect you just enjoy the feeling of 'enlightening' and being superior to others so Islam caters well for such needs.

"The primary criteria in Abrahamic faiths is belief in monotheism.. in one God. Core defining principle."

Agreed. But when it comes to their followers Muslims seem to be the most radical and blood thirsty what is a direct result of interpreting Quran literally. Other religions have moved on.

You still have NOT answered my question: If someone told you that according to their philosophy Muslims are the lowers of all creatures, would you repay them with respecting them?

Because you seem to be missing the point here - if your philosophy tells you that atheists are 'the lowest of all creatures' you simply CANNOT demand respect in return!

I think you know this and this is why you are avoiding giving me a straight answer.

" Why would religion see you as anything BUT the lowest then? But if you don't care about religion, why care how religion sees you? You can try to avoid every Muslim, Christian and Jewish person your whole life, but it may be hard"

I do not see any point in avoiding Christians or Jews because I know for a fact that unlike Muslims, they do not interpret Bible not Talmud literally. In fact, some of my family are secularised Jews. There are small radical groups that do and they are frowned upon, not encouraged like Islamic radicals.

If you chose to interpret Quran literally (like the majority of Muslims I know) and act on this interpretation then you are quite right - respect is about the last thing you'll get from me.

With regards to your statements that a Muslim woman can divorce a man, what is a blatant lie, I suggest you google 'terrorism-thats-personal-12-images' and carefully read descriptions under the photos as well as the comments left by your brothers and sisters in faith.

I think you are a Muslim convert and you simply pick and choose whatever fits you from the Quran.
02:54 March 1, 2012 by bcterry
@bcterry Do I sound like I'm offering any apology for my beliefs? "

When you answer directly the questions that have been presented to you, i will be more than happy to answer yours.

I know because of your self imposed sense of superiority that you believe you are entitled to dictate and control this conversation on your terms only, ....... it ain't gonna happen.

#147. Describes what Creator says is in store for the created who do not believe in Him. It is about Afterlife. Has nothing to do with human interaction in this life. "

That's a lie.
03:37 March 1, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz,

Here is what your former brother in faith Magdi Allam has to say about Quran:

"The very acts of Mohammed, documented by history, and which the Muslim faithful themselves do not deny, testify to massacres and exterminations perpetrated by the prophet. Therefore, the Quran is incompatible with fundamental human rights and non-negotiable values. In the past, I tried to make myself the spokesman of an Islam moderate in itself -"

"I asked myself how it was possible that those who, like me, sincerely and boldly called for a 'moderate Islam,' assuming the responsibility of exposing themselves in the first person in denouncing Islamic extremism and terrorism, ended up being sentenced to death in the name of Islam on the basis of the Quran. I was forced to see that, beyond the contingency of the phenomenon of Islamic extremism and terrorism that has appeared on a global level, the root of evil is inherent in an Islam that is physiologically violent and historically conflictive."

I will allow myself to remind you that for many years (namely 25) Magdi Allam actvely studied Quran and was involved in a campaign as a spokesperson for moderate Muslims. Until he realised that well... there wasn't such a thing....

You are welcome to fool yourself by picking and choosing interpretations and sutras as it suits you but well, the fact that you want to understand it that way doesn't mean it really is so.
06:29 March 1, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy

An apostate of any faith is the wrong person to learn that faith from because he/she no longer believes it. It is like learning to play basketball from a former NBA champion now in a wheelchair.

Would I respect a person whose philosophy considers Muslims to be lowest of all creatures?  Depends on how that person treats me. If that person smiles and says hello, I will smile and say hello also. If she ignores me, I'll ignore her. If she curses or shoves me, I'll create a public scene or punch back. Her philosophy's opinion of me will not affect me because I don't believe in her philosophy.

As for women and divorce, there's basic info about Islamic divorce on wikipedia.  

@bcterry 

If I considered myself superior to you, would I converse with you? Easy way is to forget about a newspaper that doesn't belong to my country.  However, gap between mainstream Swedes and minorities seems large. With large gap and no communication, prejudice and mistrust are probably high. Prejudice becomes hate very easily. Mutual understanding sometimes reduces mistrust and promotes tolerance. People cannot be changed. One can only change himself/herself.      
08:01 March 1, 2012 by bcterry
"If I considered myself superior to you, would I converse with you? "

If i called you "the lowest of all creatures" would i consider myself superior to you?

If I considered myself superior to you, would I converse with you?

" Prejudice becomes hate very easily. "

EXACTLY!!!, .......... see above.
15:04 March 1, 2012 by strixy
"An apostate of any faith is the wrong person to learn that faith from because he/she no longer believes it. It is like learning to play basketball from a former NBA champion now in a wheelchair."

Oh, my! Do you really believe what you wrote? So, equally, people who convert to Islam and criticise their former religion/lack of it are not worth listening to, yes?

So, if an atheist decided to convert to Islam he/she is like 'a former NBA player now in a wheelchair' and you would not take their criticism of atheism seriously?

Because what I think you are doing here is implying DOUBLE STANDARDS.

"Would I respect a person whose philosophy considers Muslims to be lowest of all creatures? Depends on how that person treats me. If that person smiles and says hello, I will smile and say hello also. If she ignores me, I'll ignore her. If she curses or shoves me, I'll create a public scene or punch back."

Okay, so please don't ask European society to give respect or ignore those who have been actively calling for the West to be destroyed as infidels. Sadly, 99% of those hate mongers are Muslims.

Alike, no other countries but Islamic countries have such a high wave of honour killings, crime against women and children, sexual abuse etc. It is really difficult not to see a link...

Or do you want to tell us that all those people in those countries are wrong and do not understand Islam?

"As for women and divorce, there's basic info about Islamic divorce on wikipedia."

If you consider wikipedia to be a reliable source of information, then I am starting to understand why you remain oblivious to obvious contradictions in your reasoning... . ANYONE can write an article for wikipedia.
21:23 March 1, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy

"people who convert to Islam and criticise their former religion/lack of it are not worth listening to, yes?" Yes. To know Buddhism or Christianity, learn from Buddhist or Christian. Not ex-Buddhist or ex-Christian. A Muslim ex-Christian can tell you about Islam. Go to Christian for Christianity. Atheism is not a religion.

I didn't ask you to respect leaders, preachers, or Islam. I defined what makes me Muslim, that's all. Whether you can or cannot co-exist with a person like me is up to you.

"Or do you want to tell us that all those people in those countries are wrong and do not understand Islam?" Most Muslims are peaceful, whether in US or Malaysia. Middle East is problematic with land/oil disputes. South Asia is problematic with war on terror. Clear link points to ignorance, corruption, economic/ political instability, poverty.

1/8 of world goes to bed hungry every night. In a so-called superpower, my neighbors are losing jobs and homes, after working hard and doing jobs well. Islam is compatible with volunteering in homeless shelters that serve everyone. It is compatible with helping neighbor if neighbor is atheist. Helping those in need of every color/culture is encouraged by philosophy.

Adapting to a flatter world and global society post Internet is challenging enough without increasing prejudice/hate.

On the divorce issue.. Holy Quran 2:227 - "And if they decide upon divorce (let them remember that) Allah is Hearer, Knower." 4:130- "But if they separate, Allah will compensate each out of His abundance. Allah is ever All-Embracing, All-Knowing." Verses 2:227-2:232 are on divorce. Verses 4:128-4:130 deal with marriage problems also. Too long to fit all here. If you wish, see in Quran on http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx

According to Hadith Sahih Bukhari - 63:188 - "Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle gave us the option (to remain with him or to be divorced) and we selected Allah and His Apostle . So, giving us that option was not regarded as divorce"

Cheers,

Sarah
21:53 March 1, 2012 by bcterry
"1. Islam is truth - obeying God is salvation - each human has free will to accept or reject it"

When you learn about true humility, you will discover your ignorance.

You will then discover how foolish it is to make statements of absolution on things that are impossible to know by mere ignorant mortals.

Have a good look at your, "islam is the truth".

Google,

"Islam's Dark Past"

Enjoy the sunshine.
23:24 March 1, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

Not enough humility is a character flaw with me. I try to work on it. Statement is not absolute because faith doesn't have to be blind. Islam is truth, but humans are faulty. No one has perfect grasp or understanding of truth. Learning from each other's differences of opinion is always good.

Cloudy day in NY :-)
23:35 March 1, 2012 by bcterry
Read the link.
02:06 March 2, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz

"To know Buddhism or Christianity, learn from Buddhist or Christian."

So, you do not accept criticism of Christianity coming from ex-Christians, yes? I would like a straight answer here.

"Atheism is not a religion."

It is a point of view that god does not exist such as religion is a point of view that god exists. :)

"Whether you can or cannot co-exist with a person like me is up to you."

I definitely cannot coexist with someone who believes that I am the lowest of all creatures. Why exactly do you expect that people who you insult will want to coexist with you?

" Most Muslims are peaceful, whether in US or Malaysia."

They are not doing a very good job in moderating their hasty brothers in faith then. Whose responsibility do you think this is?

"Islam is compatible with volunteering in homeless shelters that serve everyone. It is compatible with helping neighbor if neighbor is atheist. Helping those in need of every color/culture is encouraged by philosophy."

We have already discussed what Quran says about 'neighbours' of different faith.

I have worked all my life in charity sector in an extremely multicultural country and have never met one Muslim volunteering.

My personal experience cannot be fully representative but since it is a religious requirement then surely I would have met at least one?

"Adapting to a flatter world and global society post Internet is challenging enough without increasing prejudice/hate."

Yes. And who are the hate mongers and terrorists?

"On the divorce issue.."

You can choose a modern and convenient interpretation but the majority do not. No other community has such a high rate of abuse and honour killings. I am sure you know this is not a coincidence.

It seems like Muslims have a lot of work to do with followers of their own faith . The majority of Islamic countries happen to impose strict sharia law and oppression of women.

Why don't Muslims want to change those countries into Quran-following ones (because according to you none of them is true to Islam!)? You speak of education. Who exactly should educate those people? The West?

Maybe instead of wasting time on this forum you should launch a campaign and tell all those governments that they are not true followers of Quran?

Otherwise you are being hypocritical in demanding that the West adapts to you while not doing anything to sort out the demons on your side.

To me it looks like some are quick to call others 'pigs' and 'the lowest of all' while conveniently ignoring their flaws.

I am slowly realising that discussing with someone who considers atheists to be 'the lowest of all creatures' is pointless. Because you will never be able to abandon your prejudices - your faith is built on them.

Religion is built on excluding others and Islam is an extreme example of this.
16:57 March 2, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy

"I would like a straight answer here." The straight answer is I'll learn religion from one who practices it, not an apostate. Hinduism from Hindu, Zoroastrianism from Zoroastrian. Not ex-Hindu, not ex-Zoroastrian.

"Why exactly do you expect that people who you insult will want to coexist with you?" I'm not insulting or expecting anyone to co-exist with me. In my culture, Christians and Hindus have reminded me to pray even though their prayers are different. Tolerance is easier with education.

"Whose responsibility do you think this is?" It is definitely not my responsibility to moderate 1.36 billion Muslims. Why am I not a journalist? Best stories are in areas with highest rape risk.

"We have already discussed what Quran says about 'neighbours' of different faith." Quran is clear: Islam is true religion, justice is paramount, each human should decide own fate.

"..religious requirement.. met at least one?" Charity is a requirement. Not volunteer work. I'm American and people we feed and clothe are usually American. No culture/language barrier. In your multicultural area, are Muslims Swedes or unwelcome guests? If there are language or culture barriers, are there initiatives to teach Swedish or offer incentives to volunteer for charities? Isolation is a breeding ground for extremism.

"It seems like Muslims have a lot of work to do with followers of their own faith." Yes. Wholesome education and sound morals, to combat corruption and ignorance.

Why don't Muslims want to change those countries into Quran-following ones (because according to you none of them is true to Islam!)? Muslims who fight corruption and improve infrastructure are often killed by terrorists benefiting from corruption. Gang leaders rule country.  Imagine Italian mafia, make them Muslim and give them entire countries.    

"Who exactly should educate those people? The West?" To answer this question, I would like to know who you include in "West." Just Europe or others?

"Maybe instead of wasting time on this forum you should launch a campaign and tell all those governments that they are not true followers of Quran?" Just as I won't impose Islam on you, I won't impose it on others. Separation of church and state is effective for us.

"Otherwise you are being hypocritical in demanding that the West adapts to you while not doing anything to sort out the demons on your side." First, I'm not demanding anything. Second, the only demon that haunts me is Satan, telling me to eat another piece of tiramisu. Third, does "West" mean Europe?
17:07 March 2, 2012 by bcterry
"islam's Dark Past"

Those damn facts always get in the way.

Small excerpt,

"According to the Islamic scholars, "The Tafsir [which means explanation or interpretation in Arabic] comprise the fourth most reliable Islamic source documents. They are commentaries and exegesis on the Qur'an. The earliest, most universally respected, and best known was also written by Tabari."

As an interesting aside; I am routinely threatened by Muslims who assail my character in colorful ways. They claim that I know nothing about Islam and that my words are offensive, repulsive, disgraceful, bigoted, hateful, intolerant, mean-spirited, and #%$&*. But little do they know, they are not my words. All I have done is report what Islam has to say about itself. Apart from the Sira-Ta'rikh-Hadith collections of Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, and Muslim, nothing is known about Muhammad or Islam. The Qur'an literally disintegrates without them, since without context and chronology, it is gibberish.

This puts Muslims in a hellish predicament. If the Hadith compilations of Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, and Muslim are true, their prophet was the most evil man who ever lived - a bloodthirsty pirate, a ruthless terrorist, and a sexual pervert. His Islam was nothing more than the Profitable Prophet Plan. Allah was just one of many moon rocks. That's not good. But if the Hadith compilations of Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, and Muslim are not true, Islam evaporates."

Read on for much more REAL truth.
19:19 March 2, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry Excerpt reveals hate, not truth. I follow Quran and Hadith in daily life, whereas you just read about Islam and criticize it. Quran is dynamic and open to multiple interpretations. That means it adapts to diverse people. There are scholars I meet who are exactly on my wavelength, and others who I feel are deluded. One should not paint everyone with same brush.
20:13 March 2, 2012 by bcterry
"One should not paint everyone with same brush. "

Another of your lies, they flow like water.

Where have i mentioned anything about all muslims? My critique is of islam, and all based on facts, which continue to allude your narrow scope.

The link i gave you, FACTUALLY PROVES, that islam and your self proclaimed "prophet" are, and always have been frauds.

I knew damn well you wouldn't read it, because of your intense fear of the truth, and as Sarahfaz knows everything, she would never concede to ANY FACT that shows her to be wrong.

Your fear of the truth, and being wrong, are also the reasons you refuse answer any questions.

BTW, the only one here who has presented any hate is you.

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
21:15 March 2, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

"Islam's Dark Past" was written by Craig Winn, an American author and ex-businessman who distorts history to suit his own purposes. He started writing in 2002, like many who tried to explain 9/11 by targeting mainstream Muslims. Craig has no formal education in theology of any faith.

Some claim his writing "seems to lie in hatemongering and fomenting incitement for the purpose of cashing in on fear and ignorance."

I couldn't have said that truth better myself.
22:04 March 2, 2012 by bcterry
"I couldn't have said that truth better myself. "

Of course not, that OPINION suits your needs.

FACTS, are FACTS, they trump OPINIONS every time, they are all laid out in the link you didn't read, and they are at the the root of your deepest fears.

"Some claim his writing "seems to lie in hatemongering and fomenting incitement for the purpose of cashing in on fear and ignorance."

"As an interesting aside; I am routinely threatened by Muslims who assail my character in colorful ways. They claim that I know nothing about Islam and that my words are offensive, repulsive, disgraceful, bigoted, hateful, intolerant, mean-spirited, and #%$&*. But little do they know, they are not my words. All I have done is report what Islam has to say about itself."

Sound familiar Sarahfaz?
23:24 March 2, 2012 by strixy
@bcterry

"I knew damn well you wouldn't read it, because of your intense fear of the truth, and as Sarahfaz knows everything, she would never concede to ANY FACT that shows her to be wrong."

You have hit the nail on the head.

@Sarahfaz

The way you misread my questions proves that you are likely to be so full of yourself you know the answer before reading any question at all!

Sadly, I cannot be bothered to rewrite them here so maybe go through them again and try to understand them this time.

I especially like when i ask you about criticism of religion and you are simply unable to answer. Why? Because you damn well know that Magd has studied Quran for over 25 years and it seems to be a huge inconvenience that he actually knows rather alot about it!

The rest I won't even comment on because your answers show exactly what bcterry has summed up so aptly.
00:47 March 3, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy @bcterry

Nothing was purposely misread. A person should learn from people who know what they are talking about. 

If you tell me to learn from an apostate and a failed businessman instead of believer and scholar, I refuse to waste my time.  To see a surgery, I flattered a surgeon. To bake a cake, I observed a baker. I won't approach a surgeon to learn how to stack a four tier cake or roll fondant.  

Islam is best learned from a Muslim, preferably a practicing Muslim who has memorized Quran and has a theology degree. Dr. Abidullah Ghazi, a family friend, did his phD in Islamic studies at Harvard. He's good for Islam questions, not Craig Winn or Magd.
10:06 March 3, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz

"Nothing was purposely misread. A person should learn from people who know what they are talking about."

So to you someone who has studied Quran for 25 years knows nothing about it because finally he has decided to abandon his fath and is critical of it?

Hmm, considering that he was an officially appointed spokesperson for the moderate Muslims association in his area for nearly two decades, it seems odd that someone who knows nothing about the religion would be appointed...

Or maybe you simply do not allow sucha thing as critical thinking of religion?

Of course youc an say you did not avoid answering any of the questions purposefully but I am inclined not to believe you.

Your comparison to a surgeon and a cake is pathetic and does not make any sense at all.
13:22 March 3, 2012 by IranianAtheist
@ Sarahfaz: speaking of Aisha, did you know that as soon as Mohammad's first wife (the rich one who was a lot older than Mohammad) died, Mohammad rushed to marry Aisha, which was 7 at that time, but Abo Bakr didn't let him marry Aisha until she was 9, and Mohammad was forced to marry another woman. Later in Quran, Ahzab:53 it was forbiden to marry Mohammad's wives after his death. Aisha should have been about 30years old when Mohammd died.
18:34 March 3, 2012 by bcterry
The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Small sample,

Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. (Koran 22:19-22:23)

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Here's a little love from the koran,

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!

This is followed by (61:9):

"He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

And on and on ad nauseam.
19:55 March 3, 2012 by IranianAtheist
Aisha bint Abu Bakr (612 - 678)... According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad and nine when the marriage was consummated.... She was 20 when Muhammad died in 632, and for next 46 years until her death it was forbidden for her by Quran to marry a man.
21:28 March 3, 2012 by bcterry
Majority of Today's Muslims favor Death for Apostates

"For almost 1,400 years, the punishment for apostasy has been death. Only recently has this been challenged, mainly by Islamic apologists in the West. A Pew poll released on December 2, 2010, found that even today "The majority of Muslims would favor changing current laws in their countries to "allow stoning as punishment for adultery, hand amputation for theft, and death for those who convert from Islam as their religion".[18][19][20]

To give you an idea of the kind of figures we're dealing with, we'll use Pakistan as an example; the 2010 poll found that 76% of Pakistanis agree apostates are to be killed. In a country with a population of 172,800,000[21] (96% of whom are Muslim)[22] that would be 126,074,880 individuals in a single country. Conversely only a mere 13% of Muslims opposed killing apostates. If we are to assume the politically-correct position that, Muslims who espouse such views are extremists who misunderstand the 'peaceful' teachings of Islam, then we must also concede the fact that the majority of Muslims in the world are extremists. They are not simply a 'fringe group'. "
22:28 March 3, 2012 by strixy
"If we are to assume the politically-correct position that, Muslims who espouse such views are extremists who misunderstand the 'peaceful' teachings of Islam, then we must also concede the fact that the majority of Muslims in the world are extremists. They are not simply a 'fringe group'."

This is what I had in mind when I asked you, Sarahfaz, about all those Muslim countries that according to your words, aren't even truthful to Quran! However, you have chosen to craftly avoid answering my questions.
22:37 March 3, 2012 by bcterry
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Qur'an should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth"

--Omar Ahmed, Chairman of the Board of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations), San Ramon Valley Herald, July 1998

Everything Those Infidels Have Everywhere In the World Already Belongs to the Muslims, Take It

muhammad,

Qur'an 33.27 And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.

Qur'an 21:44 Do they see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome. NOTE: Political Correctness and Multiculturalism has proven to be the most powerful weapon for the advancement of Dar al-Islam since 1945.
00:02 March 4, 2012 by strixy
Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible."

I guess it explains a lot about avoiding straight answers and picking and choosing interpretatons as one pelases. Truth matters little, only winning does.

Islam needs a reformation, otherwise there will be a grim end to it, I guess. Sword is only a short-term solution. It antagonises people and produces enemies.

Take a look a the constitution of the Muslim Doctors and Dentists Association in the UK:

2. Objects and powers

2.1 The objects of the association shall be:-

2.1.1. To advance the Islamic religion in the practice of medicine in the United Kingdom

2.1.2. To advance medical education in relation to the doctrines, practices and traditions of the Islamic religion.

2.1.3. To promote research in various aspects of medical science and to disseminate and publish the useful results of such research.

2.1.4. To promote the preservation and protection of the good health of Muslims in the United Kingdom.

I bet those who wrote this constitution also call themselves 'moderates'....
08:26 March 4, 2012 by bcterry
"Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible."

I guess it explains a lot about avoiding straight answers and picking and choosing interpretations as one pleases. Truth matters little, only winning does."

The last couple of days have been a classic textbook example of that.

Brainwashed, ....... 101.
08:28 March 4, 2012 by Crogotiils
@ Sarahfaz

" Quran is dynamic and open to multiple interpretations. That means it adapts to diverse people."

That it is and that's why it is easy to find loopholes whenever there is a need to justify any action.

Religion, politics and laws should be kept apart. Blind faith makes people dangerous and sorry to say, but islam seems to have the most of these "blind believers", since all the other religions can get along just fine.

Like a wise man once said:

"if you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people" :).
01:59 March 5, 2012 by Sarahfaz
On plus side, unspoiled sunny weekend and gorgeous sunset in March. On minus side, I doubt comment will fit character limit.

@Crogotiils I agree blind faith is dangerous, whether faith is in religion, leader, government or armed forces. You can reason with religious people on every matter except belief in higher power. That debate is unresolved because no one returns from dead to explain if there was Afterlife or not. Choose what makes sense and good luck to you.

Quran is interpreted multiple ways, however, the most educated terrorist or extremist cannot prove via Quran that aggression is condoned offensively against civilians of any faith or lack thereof. Ignorant Muslim men are brainwashed with excerpts like the kind bcterry quotes inaccurately. I provided a website with correct translations in post #157.

Muslims are commanded to believe whole Quran. According to philosophy, a person can't accept verses that command aggression and reject verses that command peace. Everywhere that the text on first glance may appear to command two opposite things, when reconciled gives holistic understanding - a coherent message. This is why I readily initiated dialogue with Orxan. If I had any doubt about inherent message, would I openly discuss it with a Muslim (who may know it better)? Goal was to learn from Orxan and share what I know of Islam so that we both may become better Muslims. Mutual learning is possible with some Muslims, not with others. Similar to situation with atheists.

@IranAtheist You are correct, but your remark is one sided. Surah Al Ahzab 53:6 states "The Prophet is closer to the believers than their selves, and his wives are (as) their mothers. And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah than (other) believers and the fugitives (who fled from Mecca), except that ye should do kindness to your friends. This is written in the Book (of nature)." According to sources I cited above (#107, #157) she had choice to divorce Prophet (pbuh) and decided not to. In contrast, another married Zaid (adopted son) because Prophet (pbuh) asked her to then preferred divorce and married Prophet (pbuh). Ideally in philosophy both should try every way to avoid divorce. If differences are irreconcilable (abusive relationship, strong ill will, etc), religion is not a block for an educated person.

And I've reached comment limit. Cheers.
08:19 March 5, 2012 by bcterry
Quran is interpreted multiple ways, however, the most educated terrorist or extremist cannot prove via Quran that aggression is condoned offensively against civilians of any faith or lack thereof.

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

"The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill

and are killed."

"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

"So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

"Dr. Abidullah Ghazi, a family friend, did his phD in Islamic studies at Harvard. He's good for Islam questions,"

"Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible."
14:07 March 5, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

Lying is never okay. Where are the references?

Dr. Abidullah Ghazi (not Ghazali) did his PhD in Comparative Religions at Harvard University (#1 in world) in 1975 under Professor Wilfred Smith.

About Pakistan. Pakistanis have over 50% illiteracy rate. Half cannot write own name in any language - Urdu or English. Pakistan is 3rd most dangerous nation in world because police, government, and economy are worse than useless; so corrupt that honest person is jailed or killed. Steel mills and cotton factories shut down last year because they could not afford power. Major city Karachi was once a world class seaport. Now it hosts millions of Afghan refugees in slums and 3 year old girls are raped in broad daylight, then killed. Heavy floods were worse because corrupt officials pocketed money allocated to building dams and millions of subsistence farmers lost total crop. World did not help because of fear of aiding terrorists.

NGOs did what they could amidst corruption and terrorism threat. Many Pakistanis are currently starving without flour to make roti. They cook flour and water, if available. Some Pakistanis claim chili peppers reduce the need to eat too much of the precious flour. The "upper class" maybe 1%, live in gated strongholds with security guards holding machine guns. Who has control in Pakistan? The Pakistani Army, previously supported by US funds of $1billion/year, which are now reduced because PA focused on self-interest instead of US interest. They seem to think Haqqani terrorists are better friends than Americans, despite American training and money. American weapons systems are far more advanced than roadside bombs, but a native knows own territory better than best satellite system and camouflage. Due to language/culture barriers, it is very hard for NATO to convince illiterate civilians drones dropping bombs are doing it for their protection and not out of hate against Islam and Muslims.

Is this enough background or would you like to know more about Pakistan? Corruption is the norm for children in Pakistan. Their first lesson is truth can get you killed and lying helps survival - a terrible unjust environment no child deserves. Some avoid hate lessons by playing cricket and soccer/football. However, sports are limited to boys, with exception of daughters of the 1% wealthy. Average girl in Pakistan is lucky if marriage is arranged to husband who is not cruel to her. None of this inhumanity is condoned by Islam, the philosophy. Is it perpetrated by uneducated prejudiced Muslims? Sure. Are there exceptions? Definitely. The winner of the 1st place prize at the research symposium at Johns Hopkins Medical Institutes (best hospital in the world) not long ago was Dr. Adil Haider, Pakistani Trauma Surgeon who studied at Aga Khan University in Pakistan.

Value truth, and you will see worst and best of humanity world has to offer. They are all an email or plane ride away.
16:25 March 5, 2012 by bcterry
Lying is never okay. Where are the references?

Muhammad,

'war is deceit"

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...

What are your thoughts on the idea of a 50 something pedophile having sexual intercourse with a 9 year old INNOCENT CHILD!!!
03:21 March 6, 2012 by strixy
@bcterry

"What are your thoughts on the idea of a 50 something pedophile having sexual intercourse with a 9 year old INNOCENT CHILD!!!"

You will not be answered. Why? Because answerng this question honstly by anyone who is not a psychopath would rewuire to criticise the prophet and this is punishable by death by 'the religion of peace'.
16:16 March 6, 2012 by bcterry
You will not be answered. Why? Because answerng this question honstly by anyone who is not a psychopath would rewuire to criticise the prophet and this is punishable by death by 'the religion of peace'. "

Sarafaz has been programed from birth to not question anything to do with islam or it's so called "prophet", to do what she is told, and to simply ignore any facts pertaining to either that counter her brainwashing.

Freedom of thought was never an option for her, or any other muslim child, and IMO, that is the greatest crime against humanity.

If all children were given the freedom to choose their own spiritual path, given the simple guidance to know right from wrong, not taught to hate, or to put themselves above others, we would have peace in 2 or 3 generations.

She's a victim.
16:43 March 6, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

I did not find the words "taqqiya" or "kitman" in transliteration of Quran or in any Hadith. In contrast, the word "truth" appears in Quran 293 times in 276 verses, 246 times in 177 Sahih Bukhari Hadith, and 170 times in 123 Sahih Muslim Hadith. Reference: www.searchtruth.com

Where is 10 year treaty described? When Meccans tried to kill him, Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) and followers left for city of Yathrib (Medina), then returned with allied support and warred. Summary of Hijrah (planned migration) is at http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/article.php?id=38&lang=

Please do not misquote Quran. 9:3 - "And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

As for Reliance of the Traveller, it was written by a 14th Century scholar, and is outdated. For example, like the US Constitution counted a slave as 3/5 of a person, areas where Reliance of Traveller deals with slavery are no longer pertinent to modern society. Where is this 14th Century legal text still implemented?

On 50 year old intercourse with 9 year old child, you know my thoughts. If I have a 9 year old son or daughter, I will ask him/her to wait until college is done to be married so he/she can provide for family. If my 9 year old was born 1400 years ago and all her friends had husbands at her age, she might be allowed one too. Combative words will not make me view 600s as if they are 2012. Find a better convincing argument instead of repeating yourself in horror. I'll practice Sunnah (example/ behavior of Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him) wherever it pertains to my life today and will not allow anyone to dictate what I can and cannot do or believe, same as I do not dictate what others can and cannot do or believe.

@strixy

I'm not a scholar and just wrote what I discussed with scholars and follow as a Muslim. May God forgive me if I have erred. Nothing wrong with critical thinking. I have a Muslim apostate in my extended family. Based on conversations with him, I feel apostates are handicapped. He feels strong emotions and bias toward religion based on practices/behavior of followers of faith. It was impossible to explain to him a person can follow message of philosophy even if others are not doing it. Feel free to study Magdi Allam if you wish.

Again, I do not need pity, but thank you for not hating me :-)
18:17 March 6, 2012 by bcterry
"Find a better convincing argument instead of repeating yourself in horror."

Your right, it is "horror" for a 50 year old pedophile to engage in the perversion of having intercourse with a 9 year old CHILD, in this day and age, or any other time in history, especially one who called himself a "messenger from god", and any CLEAR THINKING individual would agree.

I guess the "message" from your god is he/ she/ it, is perfectly fine with this "prophet" being a pedophile.

Apparently the god of every other religion, (and i hesitate to call fascist islam a religion), sent their followers a completely opposite message.
21:34 March 6, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

Read other religions as you have read Islam.. by searching Christianity's Dark Past and Judaism's Dark Past and Hinduism's Dark Past, then try to follow up with the next great killer.. imperialism/colonialism's dark past, communism /monarchy/ dynasty's dark past.. when you have tired of wholesome education in religion and politics, you may look up Native American reservations in Canada and why alcoholism, joblessness, and suicide rates are so high on native american territory.
22:02 March 6, 2012 by bcterry
BTW, tell your apostate family member, congratulations for shedding the shackles, welcome to freedom of mind, body and soul, and the right to accept people for who they are, and not what they believe.

Best wishes to him as well.
23:20 March 6, 2012 by strixy
@Sarahfaz

The difference is that both Judaism and Chrstianity have abandoned their fundamentalistic roots and both agree that Bible and Tora cannot be interpreted literally. Islam has not reformed in 1400 years.

Some time ago an orthodox Jewish sect member tried to spit on a girl in Tel Aviw for wearing clothes that were too skimpy. A few days later leading rabi organised a demonstration attended by 10.000 people, the prime minister fully supported the outcry and ordered the government agencies to be stricted when dealing with extremists that attempt to bother citizens.

Give me an example of the same action in Pakistan or in The Islamic Republic of Iran.
02:17 March 7, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy

Clearly you have not met militant Zionists or fundamental bible belt Christians, whether Baptist, Mormon or born again Christian. In 2012, fundamental Christians campaign to replace evolution with Adam and Eve in high schools and prevent hospitals from providing contraception. Militant Jewish settlers prevent food and water from reaching native non-Jews in Gaza and West Bank. I know American Jewish girls who protest militant expansion of Israeli settlements. The girls are educated and value truth.

The main difference between Pakistan and Iran is that Iran has a decent education system. As far as law and government, both are ruled by thugs, gangs, mafia.. whatever word you prefer. Unstable justice systems.
13:49 March 7, 2012 by bcterry
MYTH

"Israel is stealing water from Arabs in the territories. Israel allows Jews to drill wells, but prevents Arabs from doing so."

FACT

"Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied. Jurisdiction over water was transferred completely and on time, and Israel approved the additional digging of wells. Israel and the PA carry out joint patrols to locate cases of water theft and other water-related problems.

The water issue for the Palestinians actually has little to do with Israel. According to the U.S. Agency for International Development, "The West Bank and Gaza suffer from a chronic water shortage, preventing sustained economic growth and negatively impacting the environment and health of Palestinians. The little water available is inefficiently used." The analysis adds that "Palestinian ground water supplies have increasingly become polluted as a result of inadequate sewage treatment and over-pumping of wells. Untreated sewage is dumped in valleys and the Mediterranean Sea, decreasing the quality of the already inadequate groundwater supply, and polluting the soil, sea, and coastline."
17:36 March 7, 2012 by strixy
It is a well-known fact that Arab officals visited Hitler and pushed for helping them with 'resolving the Jewish problem'. So, maybe 1948 was Karma? ;)
18:06 March 7, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry Sure. Depending on point of view, either Israelis or Palestinians can be seen as victims.  

Maybe threat of terrorism from Palestinians enhances Israeli aggression. Fact is territories are monitored by Israeli soldiers and police states are more inhumane than non-police states. The Jewish have not forgotten the Holocaust and never want to be helpless again.  In current position of wealth and power, inflicting concentration camp-like conditions on poor neighbors out of fear of terrorism does not place them on morally strong ground.

Life is not black and white.  

@strixy With that logic, Europe's immigration problems could be karma for stealing foreign resources via imperialism and colonization? Generalizations do not promote tolerance.
18:49 March 7, 2012 by bcterry
"In current position of wealth and power, inflicting concentration camp-like conditions on poor neighbors out of fear of terrorism does not place them on morally strong ground."

Concentration camp conditions???

Absolutely ludicrous with no basis in fact.

First it's Israel denying them food and water, which is a FACTUAL proven myth, because you "value truth"?

This gets better every day.

Now this concentration camp crap.

Here's some REAL truth about concentration camp conditions, where your muslim brothers are calling the shots.

Google,

"Living conditions of Palestinian refugees worse than believed - study"

Israel has been under attack and threats from muslims from day 1, with no end in sight, and they have every right to defend themselves.

More "truth" from your brothers.

"They want us to recognize the Israeli occupation and cease resistance but, as the representative of the Palestinian people and in the name of all the world's freedom seekers, I am announcing from Azadi Square in Tehran that we will never recognize Israel," Ismail Haniyeh said.

"The resistance will continue until all Palestinian land, including al-Quds (Jerusalem), has been liberated and all the refugees have returned," he said.

And more "truth".

This is what your brothers are teaching their children,

"Muslim Brotherhood rally vows to 'kill all Jews' "

A Muslim Brotherhood rally in Cairo on Friday at the Sunni world's most prestigious center of learning turned into a call for genocide, with protesters pledging to "one day kill all Jews."

Eldad Beck, Ynet's Arab affairs correspondent, reported from Cairo that some 5,000 people attended the rally at al-Azhar Mosque, convened to coincide with the anniversary of the approval of the 1947 UN Partition Plan for Palestine.

I could go on and on about your "value of truth:", and your brothers hatred of jews, and others, but there is not enough room on this thread.
21:04 March 7, 2012 by strixy
"With that logic, Europe's immigration problems could be karma for stealing foreign resources via imperialism and colonization? Generalizations do not promote tolerance."

Maybe they are. Although countries without the history of colonialism also suffer problems with immigration. The level of immigration from Middle East, forgive me saying so, seems to be proportional to the amount of social welfare available rather than to colonial past. I may be misinformed, this is just my interpretation and I know this is an unjust generalistation because many immigrants want to work. Spain and Portugal for example have rather impressive colonial past but not very good welfare and less immigrants of Muslim background than Scandinavian countries, the UK, France etc.

I just do not like to hear about Arabs being flawless victims of Israeli aggression, that's all. Israel is not the reason why Muslims do not like Jews. Everyone who read Quran knows that.

Re tolerance and generalisation, I wonder how the view that 'atheists are the lowest of all creatures' fits into that?
22:49 March 7, 2012 by bcterry
"Re tolerance and generalization, I wonder how the view that 'atheists are the lowest of all creatures' fits into that? "

You're taking that "out of context", it's "open to interpretation".

The real meaning of that is, "muslims love all people, atheists included, all men and women are equal in the eyes of allah".

Here's a video that really get's to the truth on this Palestinian matter, for those who really "value truth".

"Useful Idiots for Palestine".
00:33 March 8, 2012 by strixy
Well, all I can say is that immigration is a widespread phenomenon and I have absolutely no objection against it. On the contrary, I think that people should be able to leave in peace, have a job and enjoy life and if they have to move elsewhere to do it, that's fine by me.

However, I cannot escape the feeling that the Muslim minority is the only one that has serious problems with assimilation and it would be foolish to blame their choosen countries for that because those countries are also new home to immigrants from other parts of the world who fit in well. This phenomenon had puzzled me for a while so I started studying Quran and the scholars of Islam and it seems that i have found the explanation. Sorry, this is my point of view.
02:43 March 8, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@bcterry

To clarify how "Militant Jewish settlers prevent food and water from reaching native non-Jews in Gaza and West Bank" - soldiers block humanitarian assistance. Cut off from outside aid and under military rule, refugees live in concentration camp-like conditions. How many references would you like?

Egypt post-revolution is not safe or economically productive. People are burning ancient scrolls and museums. Salafis (more intolerant than Brotherhood) have 15% popular support. Extremists rise when infrastructure fails.

@strixy

No apology necessary. It's perfectly okay to express yourself how you like. As a Muslim, I think differently. Nothing wrong with differing opinions.

I visited Spain last year. For Friday prayers, we went to a mosque in Barcelona. Lots of Muslims, mostly Arab. I don't speak Arabic but I talked with a Moroccan girl in Spanish. She was very nice but didn't know Spanish culture, Catalan cuisine or landmarks. After Inquisition, Spain was intolerant of non-Catholics for a long time. That changed few decades ago. Everyone was friendly to us, including Catalans, Spaniards, Pakistani service workers. In the countryside, they stared a lot but were helpful if spoken to, shared stories about their villages and guided us to foods without ham, bacon and lard. Northern Spain has an ancient Muslim castle from 1000 years ago, with prayer niche (mihrab) built into it. They use it for parliament meetings and keep it in great condition, with original scrollwork. From muslim traveler's point of view, Spain and Spaniards are great.

Re. tolerance and generalization, nobody is flawless. Quran and Hadith guide a believer to earn a place in Heaven. A disbeliever thinks this is fiction, therefore is lowest for God according to Quran and Hadith. Christian and Jewish people believe in God, but not in Quran, therefore they are characterized as misguided. The ideology claims a person will be judged on his/her actions, and that Quran, Hadith, Bible, Torah, teach how to be morally upright. The areas where a practicing Muslim will not assimilate are prayer, charity, fasting, no drugs/alcohol, being covered up. Misogynistic judgmental attitudes towards women and non-Muslims, or using aggression or force offensively, should be punished and are against teaching of Quran and Hadith. That's all I wanted to clarify about Islam, the philosophy, and you are of course, free to differ.
03:39 March 8, 2012 by strixy
"Misogynistic judgmental attitudes towards women and non-Muslims, or using aggression or force offensively, should be punished and are against teaching of Quran and Hadith."

Then why are they encouraged and not punished by most Muslim scholars? Seems to me someone is trying to present a minority as a leading trend.... .
13:23 March 8, 2012 by bcterry
"Salafis (more intolerant than Brotherhood) have 15% popular support. Extremists rise when infrastructure fails."

In case you missed it.

The "Muslim Brotherhood rally vows to 'kill all Jews' "

A Muslim Brotherhood rally in Cairo on Friday at the Sunni world's most prestigious center of learning turned into a call for genocide, with protesters pledging to "one day kill all Jews."

"The High Election Commission said the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party garnered 36.6 percent of the 9.7 million valid ballots cast for party lists. The Nour Party, a more hardline Islamist group, captured 24.4 percent."

That's a total of 60% of Egyptians that voted for "extremists".

Therefore, at least 60% are extremists.

"In a recent poll taken in Egypt, 82% of those polled, want stoning for adultery and 84% want the death penalty for apostasy, but perversely almost all of those polled want democracy.The fools can't see the irony of the situation."

Therefore, at least 85% of Egyptians are extremists.

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

***Bukhari Volume 3, Book 38, Number 508: Narrated Zaid bin Khalid and Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "O Unais! Go to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse), then stone her to death."

***Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 808: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The boy is for (the owner of) the bed and the stone is for the person who commits illegal sexual intercourse.'

Sarahfaz,

Do believe in stoning, and death to adulterers, yes or no?

Do you believe in death to apostates, yes or no?
03:07 March 10, 2012 by Sarahfaz
@strixy

"Then why are they encouraged and not punished by most Muslim scholars?"

Basic deficiency is liberal education. Some (many?) "scholars" try to solve today's issues with yesterday's reasoning or give fatwas (religious decrees) without sound reasoning. Ignorant uneducated or prejudiced people follow blindly like sheep. God gave brain to be used.

"Seems to me someone is trying to present a minority as a leading trend.... ."

If using brain was a leading trend, I wouldn't have to explain religion. Both American and Muslim identities increase international hate risk. In some countries I'm unwelcome as an American and in others as a Muslim. Most Swedes are ok with Americans but not Muslims, so I explained Islam. For others, American foreign policy requires explanation. Basic point is poor uneducated people are more extreme than well off educated people.

@bcterry

Because my government is a representative democracy, the Hadith dealing with adulterers and apostates do not apply to me directly and have never affected me. So I never read about or researched any of them, ie. historical background and/or current understanding/application in Muslim countries. I intend to speak to scholars about the Bukhari Hadith you cited and respond when I know what I'm talking about. Thanks for drawing attention to them.

After revolution, Egypt is a dangerous place. Moderates are drowned out as a result of delays in transfer of power, poor economy and bloodshed. No center of learning now. If 61% elected are Salafi/Brotherhood and 82% hold extreme religious views, Egypt is headed in direction of Pakistan. Stable government and justice system, improved economy and education would improve situation but they need a revolutionary leader to bring that about.
13:59 March 10, 2012 by bcterry
"Because my government is a representative democracy, the Hadith dealing with adulterers and apostates do not apply to me directly and have never affected me."

If you are a muslim, and your scholars agree that the Bukhari hadith is the most authentic, and up to 90% of muslims also agree, then it does apply to you.

If however, you dismiss all the hadiths as untruth, and will state it as so to your fellow muslims, then maybe it does not apply to you. You used a hadith to back your position earlier on in this thread.

Islam, ....... if your in for a penny, your in for a pound, and your scholars, imams, mullahs, ayotollahs and all your leaders would tell you the same thing.

The Egyptians had the option to vote for moderate parties, but chose instead to vote for the radical options.

Moderates in Egypt are a small minority.

Link,

"Islamists secure top spot in new Egypt parliament"
05:09 March 14, 2012 by strixy
Link:

'The Islamic Super-state, the Caliphate, is coming'

Says it all about what will happen if we do not wake up. This is not new, btw.
21:00 March 14, 2012 by bcterry
'The Islamic Super-state, the Caliphate, is coming'

Says it all about what will happen if we do not wake up. This is not new, btw. "

Thought this link was dead.

I've known about that for a few years, it'll never get out of the chute.

The West has been very patient with this islamic crap up until now.

We are finally waking up to the realities of this totalitarian fascist ideology, and believe me, if they keep on pushing, they will see the reality of exactly who they are trying to run over.

When the rubber hits the road, ....... i don't like their chances.
07:25 March 21, 2012 by b_raz_swed
FREEDOM OF SPEECH OR FREEDOM OF HYPOCRISY !

'UK teenager to stand trial for 'grossly offensive' Afghan war post on Facebook '
06:00 March 26, 2012 by Khaliil
Would it be freedom of speech if I said that Vilks is a pedophile who has raped many children & then murdered his victims to avoid conviction?

Are libel & slander illegal?

Do Christians feel offended when Jesus is referred to as a pedophile, or are they only offended when Muslims say that Jesus is a great prophet but not God?
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