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Analysis & Opinion

'Give foreign PhDs a clear path to residency in Sweden'

Published: 16 May 12 18:03 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/40884/20120516/

Sweden needs to change rules that strip foreign doctoral candidates of the same rights as other tax-paying migrant workers seeking permanent residency in Sweden, argue a group of doctoral candidates from the Royal Institute for Technology (KTH).

Foreign doctoral candidates in Sweden can often find themselves in difficult predicaments. Whether it’s navigating through the seemingly endless ‘personnummer’ applications required for the Swedish Tax Agency (Skatteverket); or, year in, year out, having to apply to the Swedish Migration Board (Migrationsverket) for visa extensions almost immediately after receiving a valid visa.

We have our fair share of headaches – and that’s before we even have to deal with our supervisors.

And we put up with all of this because Sweden is really a great country.

We can get an excellent education in one of the world’s leading countries in terms of innovative higher degree research; the average Swede’s lifestyle is what every human on the planet aspires for; and it’s a beautiful place to live (not to mention the fabulous weather, especially compared with Australia).

Sadly though, despite all our work, and all the money invested into our research and candidatures, as the law currently stands, not a single day’s work towards our doctoral theses will count towards eligibility for permanent residency in Sweden.

Providing doctoral candidates with the right to permanent residency, after the completion of their degree, not only provides an additional incentive for international candidates to do research in Sweden, but initiates numerous benefits for the country as a whole.

Instead of funding doctoral candidates who end up moving elsewhere to use their skills, Sweden can take advantage of its investment by providing us with the ability to apply for permanent residency upon the completion of our studies.

Making it easier for us to gain residency is a simple way for Sweden to capitalize on the potential benefits of embracing this highly-skilled sector of the workforce.

We also have strong global networks and specific cultural expertise from our home nations.

Easing the requirements for residency will help Sweden benefit from freshly minted PhDs not only by increasing the chances they have to apply their skills in the country, but also through those candidates who choose to move back and forth, which will strengthen Sweden's global academic and business ties to their home countries.

To not provide this right only seems to further damage Sweden’s reputation as an internationally-supportive place of higher degree studies.

Fortunately, there is hope that Sweden may soon correct what we see as a major shortcoming in the country's treatment of foreign researchers who come here to receive their PhDs.

Later this month, the Riksdag will a motion stemming from a March 2011 report from Sweden’s Committee for Circular Migration and Development which proposes introducing a new form of residence permit specifically for doctoral candidates coming from countries outside of the EU/EEA.

A normal working migrant pays taxes and has the right to permanent residency after four years. As international doctoral candidates, we also pay taxes, but do not receive this same right, despite our training.

The committee’s proposal includes plans to fundamentally change this situation by equipping international doctoral candidates with the same rights as ordinary migrant workers.

Unfortunately though, there is little indication today as to whether the Swedish government will put forward their own proposal on this matter and pass the responding laws that are required for change.

But what we do know is that on May 30th, a committee at the Riksdag will debate a motion put forward by Karin Granbom Ellison of the Liberal Party (Folkpartiet) aiming to make it easier for PhD students to gain permanent residency in Sweden.

It is our intention to provide the Riksdag with a petition outlining the overwhelming support for this change.

As international doctoral candidates, we are not only asking for the right to further contribute to Swedish society, but we want Sweden to "use" us so that we can pay back our debts to the nation and further strengthen this country’s reputation as a world-leading place of research and business.

It is our sincere hope that with enough support through this petition, the government will be provided with the mandate to implement the required changes and put forward their own proposal before the upcoming debate.

Jake Whitehead (Australia), Shiva Habibi (Iran), and Masoud Fadaei (Iran) are international doctoral candidates at the Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) in Stockholm

External link: Petition in support of permanent residency for foreign PhD candidates »

(news@thelocal.se)

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#1
20:01 May 16, 2012 by Abe L
Just having a PhD does not make them useful or contributing employees to a Swedish company. In fact, having spend that time in the academic sector puts them back in the experience field - those years could also have been spend getting useful business experience. There is also massive fraud in international papers and titles which are often not accredited from official institutions or simply not real at all.

They do not need special treatment or exceptions otherwise.
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#2
20:23 May 16, 2012 by MohsenN
@Abe L:

It's not a matter of special treatment. It's a matter of consistency. PhD students are the only exception in Law when it comes for permanent residency. You are better off working for McDonald.

So they are not asking FOR exception, they want NOT to be an exception.

As for fraud in papers that is up to individual institutions to evaluate student's work and there is no difference between EU and non-EU students that sense, because it's about institute's reputation.
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#3
03:17 May 17, 2012 by SecondGen
They don't mention what those students are studying. It would seem to me if it's on the shortage list (whatever Sweden calls their list) then maybe treat them with kid gloves, even if they aren't currently in the workforce (because it's a profession you want and need).

On the other hand, the last thing most countries need right now are more people with PhD's in Anthropology, or Political Science (except Greece perhaps).

The alternative I would think would be to come to Sweden and work while attending school, but education visa's are probably easier to obtain, which is probably why the restriction is there in the first place. Also, with Sweden having a shorter, 5 year residency toward citizenship and most Universities allowing 7 years to complete a PhD (at least here in the U.S.), one doesn't have to be the most dedicated or responsible student to hit the residency requirements while not really contributing to society.

I remember reading not too long ago that Sweden was going to start charging tuition for non-residents (this boggles my mind that it's been free all this time). As someone with a lowly MS/CS degree (which I paid for and attended class part time while working full time), I was thinking I should apply to a Swedish University as a PhD student and hang out in Sweden while working on a degree and not been bothered with all these work deadlines.

However, just because one has a PhD doesn't make them useful. I've cleaned up after plenty of PhD's (sanctimonious philistines we called them while working for a computer company who's name is so long most referred to it by it's 3 initials - also, I should point out I didn't quit or get laid off but my division was sold - gladly the chuckleheads in watson research weren't sold with us!).

Some PhD's might be useful, but not a lot of them (and just as a warning, usually a PhD who knew the rules when they started and wants to see the rules changed later, is probably one you might want to skip keeping).
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#4
10:39 May 17, 2012 by Puffin
@ Abe L

You don't seem to quite grasp that this is a matter of treating different groups of workers consistently. All other groups working and paying tax are eligible for residency after 4 years - but not this group. Other groups with fewer skills (who may/may not also be using faked CV/documents or not) get PUT after 4 years earning 13,000SEK/month
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#5
13:13 May 17, 2012 by fxrider
About this whole thing I just got two comments:

a) A PhD student in Sweden pays taxes for 5 years just like any other employed person in Sweden. So after five years, a non-European PhD student SHOULD BE ELIGIBLE FOR PR. Nobody has the right to judge how useful he/she is for the country, as long as the PhD student follows the law, he/she should get the PR.

b) If you got a PhD from Sweden, you probably deserve a lot more than a PR. Don't restrict yourself to one country, move around, build your career. Soon the demand for your skills will be much higher than your need for a PR. A PR is just the assurance that you can stay forever, but to remain employed forever, you need skills not PR. Just my 1c.
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#6
13:20 May 17, 2012 by dott
Just doing your PhD is not making valuable you by default. It would be great if 10% of foreign PhDs are really worth to let them stay in the country indefinitely. If what you are doing is really needed you will get just regular employment, as i got while studying on masters.
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#7
14:49 May 17, 2012 by fmb
Many jealous comments against PhD's from people with low education
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#8
14:55 May 17, 2012 by gorgepir
The main issue here is that PhDs are employed and pay taxes for 4-5 years. The get around 25-30k a month from Swedish universities. The have exactly the same working conditions as every other employee in the university, however they are exempted from getting to stay in Sweden.

Most PhDs ( I would guess) are in engineering fields, which for some reason Swedes are not interested in. A simple check of recent hirings in Ericsson, ABB and Volvo could give you some insight on how low the number of Swede applicants are. If the PhDs do not stay, the companies would have to move to places with sufficient workforce.

At the end of the day, if Sweden is accepting immigrants, the question is why do they avoid highly motivated, highly educated, tax paying individuals in place for people who might just be interested in citizenship for the welfare?
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#9
15:20 May 17, 2012 by fabitto
I don't want to have residence permit. I personally don't want to stay here after concluding my PhD.

But I am working here as PhD and I would like to have same status as other workers. If I am paying taxes I should have the same social benefits as everyone. For example, I cannot take courses in other universities than mine without paying. While people with work permit can.

Therefore it would be wise for PhDs to have work permit, or, not paying taxes as a student.
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#10
15:21 May 17, 2012 by dott
@gorgepir

"If the PhDs do not stay, the companies would have to move to places with sufficient workforce."

It is not a problem to file for a regular work permit if Swedish/EU citizens are not interested in this job. It usually takes 2-3 weeks, comparing 2-3 month in Germany for example.

"At the end of the day"

Agree. But it is another issue.
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#11
16:20 May 17, 2012 by towns
@ #7

"Many jealous comments against PhD's from people with low education"

Err, how do you know they have low education? Aren't you assuming too much? For example, I once had a professor who had a PhD and he always made fun of PhD's. I remember him saying, "What the world needs is more people who can fix my plumbing, not more people with PhD's in Music criticism!"
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#12
17:02 May 17, 2012 by Swedishmyth
Try getting an African/ME citizenship and applying as a refugee. It'll probably be faster.
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#13
17:12 May 17, 2012 by dott
@fabitto

"Therefore it would be wise for PhDs to have work permit, or, not paying taxes as a student."

and not paying you a salary. Your PhD probably like any other education sponsored by government (=my taxes). You must be grateful to the country which gives you free education and money for it, while you and your parents probably contributed 0 to it (no doubt that 99% of PhDs will make no profit in the future). Stop biting the hand is feeding you.
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#14
19:01 May 17, 2012 by Smiling Canuk
"Many jealous comments against PhD's from people with low education "

Well that's absolute nonsense. PHD's are not that uncommon nowadays and there are plenty of unemployed or underemployed PHD's. It really depends what the PHD is in and how much in demand it is to the workplace. In some careers having a PHD really makes no difference at all. Not that its ever really wasted however, but in some cases all the PHD really meant is that individual chose to stay in school a bit longer.
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#15
19:26 May 17, 2012 by SecondGen
@ fmb

"...Many jealous comments against PhD's from people with low education..."

I don't think they are jealous comments, my brother has a PhD, I have a masters. We are each in different fields (his PhD is in nuclear physics and he calculates radiation dosages for cancer patients), my masters is in computer science and I do business automation and robotics apps.

I've worked with plenty of useless people with many levels of education. Don't mistake a PhD (or any other degree) for usefulness, especially for someone just out of school.

@gorgepir

"...The main issue here is that PhDs are employed and pay taxes for 4-5 years. The get around 25-30k a month from Swedish universities..."

So they collect money from the state, and give some back. That is more of a kickback than taxes.

"...low the number of Swede applicants..."

In the US, roughly 3% of the population have PhD's and a little less than 8% have masters degrees. If the spread in Sweden is the same, you have less than 300,000 PhD's in all fields, which leaves the numbers pretty thin when finding individuals who are looking for employment in a particular field.

"...At the end of the day, if Sweden is accepting immigrants, the question is why do they avoid highly motivated, highly educated, tax paying individuals in place for people who might just be interested in citizenship for the welfare? ..."

If they are accepting tax dollars from universities, that is not much different than welfare now. Both are employees of the state.
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#16
21:22 May 17, 2012 by dearyajuan
Sweden invest a lot on training PhDs including international PhD students. They should have the same rights as workers in other professions.

Sweden should learn from Canada.
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#17
22:05 May 17, 2012 by Just_Kidding
A German PhD research or one in reputable US universities often means a tight and serious collaboration with Industries and working on industrial research questions, while in Sweden, oversize institutions collect keen students from third world countries and put their energy on obsolete fields by lazy professors without any serious industrial connections; while the lazy professor is only interested in increasing the number of his/her journal publications. At the end of the rope, the young graduate finds himself/herself with non-marketable skills and no job openings and only wishes that he had at least a Swedish permanent residency and could have spent more time looking for a job.

There is no easy solution to the problem, but maybe government agencies who fund the PhD studies can consider the success rate of international graduates of an institution in finding a job after graduation when they plan to fund that institution. A university who receives a poor kid from Pakistan and makes a knowledgeable doctor of engineering out of him that contributes to Volvo or Ericsson may get a good deal of funding, while an institution who receives bright students from India or China and then sends them back with their tails between their legs and a degree in hand, should receive less funding.
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#18
22:27 May 17, 2012 by lolly lap
Why PhD students think , they must have right to stay here in Sweden and Sweden need them?

Your countries like Iran, Pakistan, China etc (underdeveloped) need you more than any country in the world. Sweden is a developed country, we don't need so much Phd´s, we have already enough.

Your countries have taught you whole your life, don't you have any respect or feeling for your own country, it seems like you don't wanna go back and betray your country. how possibly a traitor could be good for our country.
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#19
00:38 May 18, 2012 by Lunneia
@ lolly lap,

When was the last time you read about China? Please do a little research before you make such rash and thoughtless statements! Its because of people like you that Sweden actually need PhDs. With this kind of logic, your positive contribution to the Swedish economy is highly questionable.
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#20
01:50 May 18, 2012 by mutex
reading all commnets I concluded that :

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

, Sweden needs more McDonald worker than PhD students, and I suggest all PhD stop studying as soon as they find a job in a restaurant.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1- They never fraud in international papers and titles (@Abe L)

2- Working in restaurant makes you valuable enough to get PR. ( @lolly lap @fxrider)

3- Worlds have more restaurant than universities, so we need more restaurant servitor. (@towns)

Fianlly I accept that "just because one has a PhD doesn't make them useful." but I believe that they are more usefull that a "restaurant servitor.". sweden spends a lot of money for 5 years to train them and they spend (I believe WASTE) 5 extra years to learn something more than a simple master student . now do you think its logical to let them leave or should we kindly ask them to stay ? (just compare a PhD student with a "restaurant servitor.")

In PhD you are not supposed to learn , but they are supposed to learn how to do a reasearch, but in the other level students just need to memorize or become familiar with current technology.

letting PhD students stay is not costly and I believe they are better to stay rather than lettign them leave. I'm wodering why no one complain about the high amount of refuges that come to sweden every year.
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#21
11:29 May 18, 2012 by andttrip
It is an absurd proposal. All salaries of PhDs are funded by Swedish government. How shameless they dare to declare permanent residence permit after graduation. University itself does not make any money. All funds of university come from public finance expenditure, including PhDs. Sweden is a generous country where does not charge tuition fees for PhDs. If I were a member of parliament, I would propose all non-EU/EEA citizens must pay tuition fees in PhD study instead of getting any salaries.

It is remarkable that all work permit holders are tested by Swedish labour market. They are labourers needed by Sweden. But PhDs is an exception. Majority of PhDs are not needed by Sweden after graduation. The real purpose of getting PUT is just to claim social benefits after graduation. To contribute to Swedish society is just an excuse.

Anyway, if you would like to stay in Sweden, please do find a job before graduation. Otherwise, please leave here. No other solutions.
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#22
11:39 May 18, 2012 by crocadoodledoo
ok, here is my take: first sweden needs to make a list of fields or areas that has a shortage of staff throughout the country. It will be a good investment to give PRs to PhD students working in those areas, as they can have more time to search for a job befitting their studies or research. It is very unlikely that a PhD holder from a Swedish university will live on social doles doing nothing or continue doing menial brain dead jobs for the rest of his/her life in sweden..He or she is definitely going to move out of Sweden to some other country if they dont find something here for a long time, a PR will just help in keeping quality labour in the country which is the need of the hour for any western developed country. A PhD student funded by a swedish agency or a swedish university has to be treated on par with any normal work permit holder for the simple reason of consistency. A university needs PhD students to survive, as they are the ones who are more likely than anybody else to innovate something new in a particular field especially in the technology sector.
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#23
11:50 May 18, 2012 by jellybreadracer
The problem with the student's plan, is that many of these PhD's who "love Sweden" will take the PR and go to the UK or Switzerland to work. I agree Sweden should retain the PhDs, but allow a year relaxed visa status after their PhD, which allows them to find a job in Sweden and THEN receive a permanent resident after four years of working a real job in Sweden. This will also increase their ties to Sweden and make it much more likely that they will remain here.

I am concerned that people will use view a PhD as a British work permit and undermine the quality of the programs.

Finally, contrary to the letter written by the students, I serious doubt that most of the people given work permits by Migrationsverket are "migrant workers". I think belittleing the workers who came here not to study is productive for their cause.
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#24
11:51 May 18, 2012 by lolly lap
@Lunneia

China is buying companies all around the world, may be you need to learn about china more than i do. china is trying to be super power and compete with Europe and USA. Why a Chinese need to stay in Sweden?

My contribution to Swedish economy is, i am paying taxes so people like you can come here study free and take advantage of our social system.
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#25
12:38 May 18, 2012 by axiom
Most, if not all the people commenting on this thread owe their jobs to research and development, quite likely involving mostly PhD students or PhD graduates. The bulk of all economic output is driven by research and development.

I don't think PhD students are asking for exceptions, merely consistency. The fact that they are employed by the state has nothing to do with it, as other state employees, (doctors, nurses, teachers, etc) can apply for residence after 4years so thats a moot point.

Further not all PhD students are paid by the universities themselves and even when they are paid by the universities, not all university funding is from public sources. So thats another moot point.

It is worth understanding how PhD positions, funding, etc work before taking a broad brush over every PhD student otherwise we just seem ignorant.

The problem with the student's plan, is that many of these PhD's who "love Sweden" will take the PR and go to the UK or Switzerland to work ... I am concerned that people will use view a PhD as a British work permit and undermine the quality of the programs."

--more garble from across the channel. What has this to do with the UK and their work permits or whatever it is, having a Swedish PR does not enable you to migrate to the UK whatsoever.

Why PhD students think , they must have right to stay here in Sweden and Sweden need them?

-- actually the Swedish government thinks Sweden DOES need them

Your countries like Iran, Pakistan, China etc (underdeveloped) need you more than any country in the world. Sweden is a developed country, we don't need so much Phd´s, we have already enough.

-- Google for a Swedish Professor called Hans Roslin and listen to him, I think he is quite keen on people's view of development.

My contribution to Swedish economy is, i am paying taxes so people like you can come here study free and take advantage of our social system.

- But isn't this what PhD students do, often times well above the average salary of a local. They therefore contribute to a social system from which that cannot take anything (not being resident) while everyone else can, how can they then be ones taking advantage, the logic evades me.

If I were a member of parliament, I would propose all non-EU/EEA citizens must pay tuition fees in PhD study instead of getting any salaries.

-- this makes no sense when other countries are moving in the opposite direction, universities would just pay for it through research funding, which is exactly what happens now.

The real purpose of getting PUT is just to claim social benefits after graduation.

- what social benefits exactly? the argument always comes back to, "you can't get any of our welfare" - but he has paid taxes, exactly like you have, for the last five years and exactly like every other migrant, EU or otherwise
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#26
12:52 May 18, 2012 by jellybreadracer
@axiom,

I am not British, but am basing my commentary on a rational examination of the facts:. After a year of PR they can be citizens, that means that a PhD in Sweden (which takes 5 years) makes you a citizen of the EU of you choose.

I think that it is easy to see how a PhD will be a permit to migrate out of Sweden in that case. Sweden should not offer citizenship as a reward for PhD (which PR would in essence be). There must be a policy in place that requires the student's residence permit to be restricted to Sweden for 4 years after the PhD. If they are not interested in leaving here to Switzerland or the UK, they certainly will not mind.

However, you are right on the tuition for PhD students, since this so-called proposal will basically end doctoral programs in the EU, much like the mis-guided tuition increase.
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#27
13:18 May 18, 2012 by axiom
I am not British, but am basing my commentary on a rational examination of the facts:. After a year of PR they can be citizens, that means that a PhD in Sweden (which takes 5 years) makes you a citizen of the EU of you choose.

-- not true, would have to wait another 5years

Sweden should not offer citizenship as a reward for PhD (which PR would in essence be). There must be a policy in place that requires the student's residence permit to be restricted to Sweden for 4 years after the PhD. If they are not interested in leaving here to Switzerland or the UK, they certainly will not mind.

-- already would be the case as they would have to wait 5yrs to become a citizen
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#28
13:40 May 18, 2012 by jellybreadracer
@axiom

Ok, then we agree on the duration. However, currently they could get citizenship under this plan, as Migrationsverket states:

http://www.migrationsverket.se/info/499_en.html

regarding Time to become a citizen:

"In most cases you are required to have been resident in Sweden for at least five years. "

and

"If you had a permanent residence permit (PUT) or a residence permit for settlement (UT) when you entered Sweden, you count the duration of stay from your date of arrival."

Which, if they are treated as normal immigrants, they will be able to be citizens on year 5 of their PhD.
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#29
14:23 May 18, 2012 by axiom
Not to deviate too much:

I understand your point, but there are alot of exemptions to those rules, not even someone on a work permit qualifies after 5years . The five yrs is counted from the time you get a permanent residence permit, so I a PhD student were treated in the same way as someone on a work permit, they would do:

4yrs + PUT + 5yrs = Citizen

But the point remains, which is valid: no special rules, treat them like anyone else with a job paying taxes and living here for five years.

I think a point many people miss is that just being a PhD student is a skill shortage issue, if this were not the case, then we would be able to recruit an abundance from Sweden alone. Getting a PhD position is handled like any other job application and suggests that the proportion of candidates chosen from abroad is indicative of the lack of skills present in the local labour force.
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#30
14:23 May 18, 2012 by Fernandis
Not good idea to offer PR or citizenship to Ph.Ds because of following reasons:

1. They won't accept any other type of work/low paid jobs, in the event of financial crisis in the country. Therefore, these highly qualified graduates become burden on economy and other poor tax-payers.

2. They are not need of industry nor corporates, if u look at job market.

3. if any Ph.D holder finds job, then fine to give him/her work permit.

4. This'll create another big camp of unemployed highly qualified ppl, just dependent on other tax-payers.

Those who say that they pay taxes thats why should be offered PR.....but in return u get free education, free health for u and ur family and nice working conditions!
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#31
14:31 May 18, 2012 by axiom
They won't accept any other type of work/low paid jobs, in the event of financial crisis in the country. Therefore, these highly qualified graduates become burden on economy and other poor tax-payers.

-- Couldn't we say this about any other professional categories of people in the labour force,?

They are not need of industry nor corporates, if u look at job market.

-- Not true, when last have you looked? want to walk down to Kista or ring Ericsson or have a chat with an investement bank?

if any Ph.D holder finds job, then fine to give him/her work permit.

-- but for all purposes, except migration a PhD student is already trreated as having a job, he gets taxed in the same way, has to go through all the processesof recruitment and in most cases even gets pension paid!

This'll create another big camp of unemployed highly qualified ppl, just dependent on other tax-payers.

-- rubbish, if they work and contribute to social security why then can they not get some of the benefits, just like everyone else, how is that any worse than someone's sambo who, after just moving here, lives here fora while learning Swedish, getting medical care, going to school, etc without earning and paying taxes.
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#32
15:00 May 18, 2012 by andttrip
Why we should debate this issue? Sweden should adopt UK stringent immigration policy that if you wish to reside in Sweden you need to possess PhD and take highly paid position, say monthly salary over SEK 50,000. PhD itself does not mean you will pay high tax thereafter and to demonstrate that you can contribute to Swedish society. Or you can set up a company that hire at least say 10 EU citizens and invest a large amount of money. That is wise method.

Secondly, since PhD is education, not a job. Please pay the full amount of tuition fees to Sweden. Many countries charges tuition fee for international students, including PhDs. Why Sweden should pay salary to PhD students?
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#33
15:37 May 18, 2012 by fxrider
All the wise men and women who think PhDs aren't useful for Swedish economy should read about the latest changes to UK immigration policy which requires that a non EU person in UK should earn a minimum income of 35000 pounds pa to be eligible for PR. But the non-EU PhDs and postdocs are exempted from this rule. Even Britain's conservative govt realizes the necessity to retain highly educated foreigners.

Any thoughts on why UK exempted PhDs and postdocs?
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#34
15:53 May 18, 2012 by axiom
PhD and take highly paid position, say monthly salary over SEK 50,000

-- actually, PhD students in the UK are exempted from the salary requirements

see: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=419225

Secondly, since PhD is education, not a job. Please pay the full amount of tuition fees to Sweden. Many countries charges tuition fee for international students, including PhDs. Why Sweden should pay salary to PhD students?

-- different countries see PhDs as different things, in Scandanavia, it is seen as a research job, this is not unique to Sweden, and therefore the grounds for the discussion for most people. Further, the bulk of work a PhD student does has no formal lessons but is independent research, therefore placing little or no cost on the formal education system. The work done by PhD students are one of the key contributors that determine how much funding a university receives. Why do you think even in countries where there are fees, most if not all PhD students are exempted or fees convered by their research grants. In fact only a very small minority of PhD students worldwide actually pay any fees from their own pockets.
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#35
15:54 May 18, 2012 by proteasome
In the recent past Swedish-university departments did not directly need to pay PhD salaries, the government subsidized a certain number of PhD positions. Considering that direct and indirect cost for highly trained technicians is prohibitively costly for research groups in Sweden, PhD students became a large workforce for the Swedish professors. This is changing and these "free" positions have dried up mostly. The research groups had to look for students outside of Sweden who have their own stipends from their home countries. Problem is not that Sweden thinks foreign PhD are not talented but in fact that you are too talented. If you stay in Sweden, there would be no blue eyed and blonde haired Swedish professors. You are too large of a talented work force and would dilute out the natives and that is why there is these current strange rules where the most talented get the worse treatment. Sweden wants a talented work force and the old and dated concept of what a traditional privileged Swedish professor should look like.
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#36
16:07 May 18, 2012 by tuerd1982
Wow, very interesting.

The people whom most afraid from highly educated immigrants are the immigrants.
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#37
16:19 May 18, 2012 by BraBel
"not to mention the fabulous weather, especially compared with Australia"

That's certainly the craziest thing I've ever heard, the weather here in Australia is so bloody great! Sunny and awesome all year'round. Not that I don't like the Swedish cool climate sometimes.... but seriously?!?!?!!

What about these comments???? "We don't need Phd's", "Go back to your country you traitors"??????? WFT!! Who are you people???? Is it like you, immigrants without a Phd, don't want Phds invading Sweden and taking better jobs than you??
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#38
16:20 May 18, 2012 by lolly lap
You know, how much it cost to to study even a masters in UK , USA or Australia?

Firstly, Sweden have give you opportunity to do free Phd , secondly you get pay for 5 years also. what more you want?

We let you come to our home as a guest and gave you great opportunity for free but surprisingly instead of going back, now you want a part of our home also.

I am afraid, after getting permanent residence, you will start demanding some thing else and your demands will never end.

you guys are now doctors and scientist, why don't you go back and help your own country instead. Help your own countries so your coming generations can remember you in good words.
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#39
16:34 May 18, 2012 by Saints
The problem here lay deep within the Swedish system, it is very bureaucratic and inflexible with a hint of distrust of foreigners thrown into the mix makes emigrating to Sweden difficult. These bureaucrats forget that Swedish graduates with or without Ph D's also emigrate abroad to other first world counties such as Australia, Canada, New Zealand and get preferential treatment, but it seems this arrangement is never reciprocal and should also be pointed out.
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#40
16:41 May 18, 2012 by gorgepir
@SecondGen (#15)

You are actually wrong, many engineering PhDs are half funded by the state and half funded by big companies (via excellence centers), but for the sake of the argument lets assume you are correct. Both are employees of the state. One is receiving welfare and doing nothing. The other is teaching and doing research. Guess which one Sweden is keeping and which one it is keeping out?

Also, I am talking about the low number of Swedish applicants in engineering fields (when I say low I mean close to zero low). Not about PhDs in general, which makes your statistics not applicable to this case.

@lolly lap

Why do you think it is ok for you to tell them what they should do? Probably some communist beliefs that make you think you know how everyone should live there lives I guess.

@Fernandis

Most of the tax money generated in Sweden comes from the fruits of the research and development in big companies like Ericsson and Volvo. Deprive them of their researching workforce (PhDs) and you will see how quickly they will move to other countries with the proper workforce.

@most other comments

PhDs are almost exclusively hired to work in their universities (they are employed), and receive education (20% of the PhD requirement is education, 60% research and 20% teaching) on the way. People who go to the police academy and get education there are not treated as students. Check out neighboring countries to see how PhDs are treated there compared to Sweden. Sweden is actually one of the worst in Europe with regards to keeping PhDs.

In general I should add, you are missing the point. PhDs are asking to NOT be exempted from normal laws, they are not asking to be given any special consideration. You may not agree with those laws in the first place, but that is another issue.
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#41
18:45 May 18, 2012 by axiom
You know, how much it cost to to study even a masters in UK , USA or Australia?

-The point being? Tuition fees are generally comparable globally for foreign students

Firstly, Sweden have give you opportunity to do free Phd , secondly you get pay for 5 years also. what more you want?

- This is not true, a PhD is by no means free, by that measure every other job would be free. PhDs are funded from a variety of sources, often times with no money at all from the state. I am not sure where the free aspect lies. A PhD student must teach, research, supervise students, and do additional administrative work in return for their education. They just don't go to classes and pick up a cheque each month.

We let you come to our home as a guest and gave you great opportunity for free but surprisingly instead of going back, now you want a part of our home also.

--Again, where is the freeness aspect?

I am afraid, after getting permanent residence, you will start demanding some thing else and your demands will never end.

-such as something else everyone else does not demand? what would this be a free liver for all the booze we drink. don't worry the entitlement mentally in Europe is falling around us while we fiddle.

you guys are now doctors and scientist, why don't you go back and help your own country instead. Help your own countries so your coming generations can remember you in good words.

-- does not even worth a comment
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#42
19:19 May 18, 2012 by 4254
assuming Swedish Uni/PhD schools are good: graduated PhDs should be welcome to stay.

assuming Swedish Uni/PhD schools are total crap and waste of govt money: graduated PhDs should of course be asked to move out after graduation.
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#43
19:51 May 18, 2012 by yite
In all fairness, i think when politicians make this kind of laws, they consider who gets the cream out of it all. In this case, in a country where there is a low birth rate of the natives, it is quite scary to bring more educated elites into a society that can change the whole socio-economic dynamics and the political scenario. If Sweden keeps on granting the educated mass to its own teritory, the flood of people coming in will definetly surpass the native intellecutal quorum.This hence will definetly has an effect in every aspect of the country ,say, in the generations to come. ANd also remmeber the second generation of immigrants are now getting into the market and they also need to get places which i guess is one issue that i suppose one needs to look into. And i guess it is more of an understandable move that can be ascribed as the "unwritten rules" to actually sustain and maintain the swedishness of the country...
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#44
20:51 May 18, 2012 by TheWatchman
'At the end of the day, if Sweden is accepting immigrants, the question is why do they avoid highly motivated, highly educated, tax paying individuals in place for people who might just be interested in citizenship for the welfare?'

That sums up my thoughts on this issue.
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#45
22:39 May 18, 2012 by axiom
good point, but the comments above seem to suggest that higher educated professionals are more of a burden to the Swedish society than others, a logic that quite likely evades all other economists or social scientists.

PhD students, if you read all the comments above, are not asking for any special treatment whatsoever or any exemptions outside the normal policies, interestingly enough they are asking for the exact opposite, to be treated equally within the scope of the rules, nothing more.

however, the bulk of the arguements are from people complaining about their welfare cheques being stolen when in reality a PhD student probably pays more tax than many people raising this objection, with no rights to social welfare, etc.

this statement "Sweden is a developed country, we don't need so much Phd´s, we have already enough." made my sambo (who is swedish) look at me in horror and ask me if I had read it correctly
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#46
01:51 May 19, 2012 by Fernandis
those who are arguing for PR or citizenship mainly come from Non-EU countries, because living in sweden is not an issue of EU ppl.

Finally, let Ph.Ds stay in Sweden if they show permanent employment for at least 5 years, after graduation. Because, real life starts after graduation :)

BUT...in my personal opinion, this'll create another big mess, if ppl are allowed to stay without secured job just by looking at their degree.
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#47
08:07 May 19, 2012 by SecondGen
@gorgepir

"You are actually wrong, many engineering PhDs are half funded by the state and half funded by big companies ..."

Well, I refer you to a January 6th, 2012 article in the local which says Swedish Universities will start charging and interviews some students from Pakistan;

"...Sadiq Malik, a Pakistani student who enrolled at Stockholm University one year before the fees were introduced, says he would not have been able to afford paying the current tuition fees. ..."

It doesn't say he's paying but maybe there is a grandfather clause as he was going for a masters degree and said he was too poor to pay.

It goes on to say;

"... From a US perspective, an annual fee of 140,000 kronor, the amount Eric McGivney and Brooks Patrick are paying for their science education at KTH, is more likely to be seen as reasonable than extortionate. ..."

Per the currency converter on yahoo that works out to $19k per year!!!! That is an EXCELLENT price, not just reasonable but EXCELLENT!!!!
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#48
12:18 May 19, 2012 by axiom
Comment: those who are arguing for PR or citizenship mainly come from Non-EU countries, because living in sweden is not an issue of EU ppl

-- while not entirely true, a fairly obvious deduction, don't you think?

@SecondGen #47

Well, I refer you to a January 6th, 2012 article in the local which says Swedish Universities will start charging and interviews some students from Pakistan; "...Sadiq Malik, a Pakistani student who enrolled at Stockholm University one year before the fees were introduced, says he would not have been able to afford paying the current tuition fees. ..."

--Fees are only applicable to Bachelors and Master's degree programmes. Not PhDs, want to check, just go to studera.nu. PhD's are not funded entirely by the state and in some cases, almost not at all.

@SecondGen #47 Per the currency converter on yahoo that works out to $19k per year!!!! That is an EXCELLENT price, not just reasonable but EXCELLENT!!!!

--So lets make a comparison and see. KTH ranks 187 worldwide with graduate tuition fees of 145 000 sek

The closest university in the UK is the University of Liverpool at 181 with graduate tuition fees at 168 000 sek

The closest american university is Iowa State University at 184 with graduate fees at around 145 000 sek

now unless the rules of comparison have changed since the last time I checked this is no where near EXCELLENT but rather comparable globally, even when considering that the other universities BOTH have a higher ranking.

but lets be a little better, the closest is a Spanish university with graduate fees of just 73 000 sek

it is not that simple even to compare tuition fees in the United States since the majority do not pay the advertised fees as most universities offer a multitude of exemptions and financial aid packages
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#49
13:05 May 19, 2012 by andttrip
It is an absurd discussion. If you wish to stay in Sweden after graduation, you can get a short period visa to find a job. But the prerequisite is to repay all the salary received from the university plus tuition fees exempted. It is a fair trade. I think Swedish parliament should agree this proposal.

Sweden charges very reasonable tuition fees in the world. Very affordable and very competitive! If you can not afford tuition fee, you can choose other countries to study. It is your choice. Sweden has no obligation to lower tuition fees for non-EU students. Sweden is not a charity.
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#50
16:57 May 19, 2012 by axiom
If you wish to stay in Sweden after graduation, you can get a short period visa to find a job. But the prerequisite is to repay all the salary received from the university plus tuition fees exempted. It is a fair trade. I think Swedish parliament should agree this proposal.

So let me get this straight - a university and in many cases a research department at a company employs an overseas research student. student comes, does research for which the university capitalizes, teaches, does admin, supervise students, attract more funding grants, etc and then if he wishes to continue after - he must repay all the salary he earned for this?

so lets apply this to a medical doctor, moved to Sweden worked for four years, studied at the same time to be a cardiologist (free of course) and earned a decent salary (from the state of course) but if he wishes to remain in Sweden after four years (which is allowed at the moment) he must repay all salaries earned from day one - what a load of rubbish - did you fall of your chair laughing when you wrote this?
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#51
21:06 May 19, 2012 by andttrip
Please do not muddle up. I talked PhD not work permit holders. Any work permit holders contribute to Swedish society and are really needed by Sweden. Please remind that PhD is just education, not work. PhD students are so lucky to get salary to study. If you wish to stay in Sweden, you should repay all the salary. It fulfils your slogan "to contribute to Swedish society". If you refuse to do so, you should leave here since you are not "philanthropic".
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#52
22:56 May 19, 2012 by WaldemarGute
This conversation reminds me of the "100 reasons NOT to go to grad school" blog:

http://100rsns.blogspot.com/

No matter where you are in the world, it seems that getting a PhD is no longer worth the trouble. It's not valued outside of academia, and the degree is so common inside academia that PhD holders are effortlessly replaced.

In an episode of the Simpsons, Marge says, "Bart, don't make fun of grad students. They just made a terrible life choice."
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#53
00:54 May 20, 2012 by Keyboli
Comment: Comparing with other professions, I have seen PhD student as a research position. Obcourse PhD students work hard more than 8 hours a day and most of the weekends as well but thats their greatness. And main motivation is obcourse achievement of PhD degree. I guess, this is same for Swedish phd students.

Doing PhD here in Sweden is really great as it gives you opportunity to work with industry Ex., lkab, ericsson, volvo and so on as well as regional, national and EU research projects. Very attractive working environment, latest equipments to play with, worldwide business trips and so on. It is not very much theoretical burden rather you have sufficient freedom to make your research attractive and useful in general.

I believe every Swedish PhD deserves attractive career and they will own it no matter in or outside of Sweden. It is fair enough to offer to Phd students additional stay time to realize how much effective they are job in searching after awarding PhD. You may argue that why don't they search for job before their degree, because the last few months before Phd defense, is very demanding and it requires complete focus. However, in most of the cases phd students have several offers even before their degree in hand.
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#54
00:59 May 20, 2012 by scrawler
PHD students first they study on tax payers money. On the top of it now they want PR what a greedy people !

PHD means you are still students not an employee.

What on Sweden they contribute for national development. ! just take PR and run away to other countries.

Sweden should be like US and UK where phds are not funded. Only talent students should get deserved funds.

This is highly unacceptable if Swedish government issues PR to them.

Why phd guy work in restaurant and other third rate job bcz their are not capable enough to find job in global market. Don't just hue !

May we can give them post as professor to everyone after there PHD. It doesn't mean that if you hold phd degree you are better. Many people do phd they are not capable enough to find a job. Very few do phd for following there passion.
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#55
01:01 May 20, 2012 by axiom
@51

So wait, if PhD students are not really needed by Sweden, then why does the Sweden allocate around 4% of its GDP to research and development. It seems to me that your logic does not hold with reality. The amount of money invested in research DOES suggest that Sweden really needs PhD students and the increasing number that are from abroad suggest moreso that Sweden DOES need international PhD students.

Say what we like, but the facts say something else.

PhD students do not get a salary to study, they get a salary to solve a research problem. To make it simple, company A needs to find out how to optimize the production of wood pulp from pine trees. company A talks to university B which, along with a professor finds a researcher with some knowledge in the area wraps up the research as a PhD since this is beneficial to the university.

person works for a few years on the problem, getting paid for this while at the same time, doing some additional tasks such as teaching, admin, etc for the university and gets paid a little extra to do this. after a few yrs he produces his solution for which he is awarded a PhD, the university gets several publications and research recognition which gets it more funding later on.

company A gets a new solution and improves his production and output increasing profits, pays even more taxes and hires new people.

so it pays to understand how many PhD students are funded or how they contribute, walk down to any university and ask.

but of course for most people, contribution is nothing more than cold hard cash or welfare cheques, it is for that reason that not everyone can get to be a PhD or get to decide what is a contribution and what isnt.
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#56
02:18 May 20, 2012 by tototo11
Looking at the comments, I couldn't resist to reply to some people who seems to be missing the whole point.

A PhD student known as Doktorand in Swedish is not someone who should get a PUT just because they consider themselves as those who are contributing more than others to the society.

A Doktorand is known as a "Research Assistant" in many countries, including but not limited to Germany, Finland, France, Belgium, so on an so forth. Such a position is nothing but a regular employment.

Therefore, regardless of how worthy their jobs are and their contribution to the society, it is our role to support them in any way or another as we support any other employee in Sweden.

It is a pity when I read comments about Servitors and other kind of jobs in this context. We respect everyone and we should just get out of the box, think more rationally and everyone should be equally treated.
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#57
08:16 May 20, 2012 by SecondGen
@axiom

You said;

"--So lets make a comparison and see. KTH ranks 187 worldwide with graduate tuition fees of 145 000 sek

The closest american university is Iowa State University at 184 with graduate fees at around 145 000 sek ..."

I can't speak to University of Liverpool, but I'm quite familiar with the Iowa State Cyclones and your comparison stinks because your not comparing apples to apples.

The 145k SEK you are quoting is for in state resident tuition. International students are not in-state residents and would have to live and work in that state on a non-student visa or green card for a year to establish residency.

Non-resident, generic grad school student tuition would be 235k SEK, not the number you quoted (it peaks at 469k SEK for veterinarian school).

In Iowa, to establish residency you need to live and work in Iowa and file State of Iowa tax returns for 12 months before attempting to claim residence status (and then only if someone else can't claim you as a dependent elsewhere - so you have to be self sufficient).

International students do not qualify for in-state tuition in the United States, so, again, the tuition rate they are paying in Sweden is excellent, and, based on the schools you provided, is nearly 40% less than they'd pay in the USA for a comparable school.
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#58
11:37 May 20, 2012 by axiom
@SecondHGen

Look at:

http://www.financialaid.iastate.edu/faq/costofattendance.php

Tuiton fees (rounding off) for a standard graduate course, which would include technology courses common to both KTH and Iowa State:

Iowa state charges for non-resident:145 000 sek excluding room and board.

KTH charges for non-residents: 145 000 sek excluding room and board

Now, thats apples and apples.

Add room and board, etc books supplies

Iowa State charges 235 000

KTH 145 000 + 10 * 8000 (for monthly room and board + books, etc) = 225 000 sek

Again, apples and apples, show me where I quoted a single wrong figure

ok but you mention vet school being the peak fees, here we have to compare apples and oranges since KTH does not do vet programmes (not that I know of anyway)

Peak at Iowa State excluding room and board for a non-resident (again all mentoned right beside where you get your figures from, I take year 1 - 3 since the KTH program would not be longer) - 300 000sek

KTH for architecture: 245 000 sek

a student would save 20% between schools, no where near 40% and for a university that has a higher ranking globally, that alone is worth paying extra for, students do that every day.

While I have absolutely nothing against KTH or Iowa State (never been to either) if we are going to make claims, we should be honest about them.

Studies in Sweden are good value for money, the fees are competitive globally and so is the quality of the education offered. But I wouldn't declare it to be exceptionally better when the facts state otherwise.
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#59
12:24 May 20, 2012 by zhbo
@lolly lap

What? You call me a traitor?

As a master student, I had paid my study and got educated. I am just going back next month.

Why do I have to stay in a country where finding employment is pretty hard instead of somewhere the economic is booming and engineers are badly needed.

Your conjecture of people's thinking is certainly wrong.
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#60
13:44 May 20, 2012 by grandduc
@ Axiom

I love you :) . you hit them all.

I don't understand how this issue can raise so many negative comments. A group of working people asks the same rights as the rest. A strange request in a democratic country.

And people saying that PhD students don't work hard. I know people who come in the weekend, stay over night for experiments, wright applications for money (because not everybody is paid by the government, and it is a hard competition). I didn't see any bank employee or tax office worker, staying over night to finish their office work.

I am asking myself "Why", why these contra-people react like this. is it a fear of higher educated people? do they have an inferiority complex compared to PhDs? Or is it simply because it is about immigrants and it doesn't matter if it is in this case PhD students?

I am a PhD and I don't feel better then non-PhD. I do my job and the cleaning lady does her job. Our society needs both to work and we should respect and esteem every bodies contribution. Very often we don't understand or see the importance of other jobs.
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#61
14:46 May 20, 2012 by axiom
@54:

what a load of rubbish

What on Sweden they contribute for national development. ! just take PR and run away to other countries.

--Get permanent residency and run away, isn't that a contradiction of terms. PR permits someone to stay in a country, once you leave it is generally useless outside and expires after a year.

Sweden should be like US and UK where phds are not funded. Only talent students should get deserved funds.

--So im guessing the thought is that someone from say India, just applies to study for a PhD kinda like how a Bachelors degree work? I suggest some reading would alleviate chronic arrogance. A PhD is an extremely highly comptetitive position, a department typically only has a few perhaps less than five each academic year for which it would receive hundreds of applicants suggesting that only the best are actually chosen.

@60

Thank you :)

I totally understand how you feel, its easy to take what a PhD does for granted until you understand that even the very device you are using to post your comments was once the work of a PhD student. ;)

Any PhD student reading this shoulds sit back and smile a little because he knows that the same person being negative about his work is the very same person, who's expectations and demands on science and technology will forever keep him employed.
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#62
15:19 May 20, 2012 by hackie
@lolly lap,

Among all the stupid and senseless comments I have read on this thread, yours is the worse. I need to know if you have some impairment that makes your IQ so low. Do you have a down syndrome?
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#63
15:35 May 20, 2012 by axiom
@hackie

lets be nice, eh ;)

personal attacks are not very nice, besides down syndrome is a real problem affecting real people, nothing to joke about :D
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#64
19:14 May 20, 2012 by Nilspet
There are some really stupid comments here.

Sweden will fall to its knees when highly educated leave this country. That is the fact, not opinion. Look at AstraZeneca! Without people with research skills Sweden will only sink. Business or labour experience is nothing to compare with PhD degrees.
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#65
19:45 May 20, 2012 by axiom
@ #64

+1

I couldnt have given a better example, AstraZeneca is actually trying to find academics (PhD students) to do research in order to find some new drugs and save the company and eventually hundreds or thousands of Swedish jobs.
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#66
22:09 May 20, 2012 by dott
----

I couldnt have given a better example, AstraZeneca is actually trying to find academics (PhD students) to do research in order to find some new drugs and save the company and eventually hundreds or thousands of Swedish jobs.

So what's the problem? If phd students are needed they will get regular work permit.
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#67
22:10 May 20, 2012 by Just_Kidding
# Axiom: about funding of PhD students in US, a friend of mine goes to MIT and they pay PhD students around 2000USD/month; but I agree that there might be thousands of other US universities that don't pay PhD students, but they charge them.
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#68
22:36 May 20, 2012 by axiom
@#66

-- Of course you are right, perfectly so, and this is the discussion we should be having.

Either:

A PhD student is only a student, by which I guess we relax the rules to meet that of other students, you sign up pay fees and study and if you are lucky you get some funding.

OR

As a job, which is what it is now, a position is advertised, you apply, get interviewed and employed, do your research, get a salary, pay taxes and social contributions and are required to obtain a work permit like everyone else who work under the same conditions (like is done in Norway).

You see what PhD students are saying, is that "for the purposes of everything else except obtaining a residence permit, they are already treated like an employee and by extension someone on a work permit". And so similar are the requirements for a residence permit as a PhD student, that Migrationsverket has suggested that a change in procedure will only require adding only a single new line of law. This is a proposal the govt is now considering.

But I think that was in response to the comments above that PhD students are not needed in Sweden since Sweden is already developed enough.

@#67

--This is indeed so, most universities offer packages including teaching assistantships, research assistantships etc which pays a PhD student and covers any other costs such as fees, etc. There are universities where one could enrol and pay fees and earn a PhD but not the policy obtained in most of Europe.

In Sweden it is not even possible to be admitted without a corresponding research employment and funding being available. that is to say, the only way a university can admit a PhD student is firstly by securing the funding(private or public) to cover costs. you dont just sign up for a PhD and then wait for a monthly salary, contrary to what most on this thread seem to think.
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#69
22:45 May 20, 2012 by Iraniboy
I don't know why people are arguing here. There is not even a single opposition from any Swedish party in the parliament about this. The only problem was that this law didn't exist before.

@dott

Since you were concerned about your tax being used for PhD studies in your first comment, I should tell you the the vast majority of PhD are funded by non-governmental companies which accept these PhD project for their own private benefits so it is essentially none of your business I'm afraid.

The problem is mentioned in the second comment. It is inconsistency in the law that is going to be soon changed. Since everybody gets PR after 4 years of working and paying taxes and releases from the hassle of application for work permit except PhDs.
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#70
22:55 May 20, 2012 by aussiejake89
Some interesting comments here.. Mostly constructive, but others just plainly ignorant.. Thank you for the feedback though. All of this can be taken on board for consideration..

As one of the authors thought I'd just reply on a few things..

@ BraBel

The comment about Australian weather was meant to be a bit ironic to try and be a bit lighthearted - didn't quite come across in the final version of the article though :) Coming from Brisbane the weather has been pretty terrible though - raining all the time - so the good weather in Sweden this here has actually been a relief funnily enough! haha

@ All comments against the proposal

There have already been some excellent responses to the criticisms outlined... Unfortunately we may not have made it clear enough in the article but the point is, all we are asking for is to be treated just like other international workers in Sweden and so that once we finish our Doctorate (4-5 years) we can apply for permanent residency (as we were under the previous laws).

As an Australian I really hope I have the opportunity to stay here after my PhD and contribute to society..

A PhD in Sweden is far more than just education.. We have to lecture, mark, organise conferences and workshops, and do other general administrative tasks that usually take up at least 20% of our time (usually more!). Sure, some may not see it as equivalent to a full-time job, but many would also argue the opposite and as someone who has worked for several years for civil engineering firms in Australia, I can attest that my work here is certainly more demanding than in the so-called 'real-world.'

There are a lot of other difficulties that International PhD Candidates have to deal with in Sweden, including renewing visa's every 12 months, but we understand processes need to be in place. We are merely asking for the same rights, that were in fact afforded to us under the previous government (yes, as I hinted above, in fact previously PhD Candidates did not have the current problem) but since the change in regulations, we slipped through the gaps and probably as 'non-voting' members of Swedish society, we haven't been the highest priority for the government to address (which is fair enough).

It is our hope though that these laws can be changed and further strengthen Sweden's reputation as a world-leading research nation, whilst simultaneously increasing its' business and educational links throughout the globe.

@ All supporters

Your comments are greatly appreciated and we sincerely look forward to seeing what happens at the end of the month and going forward! Thanks again!
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#71
00:38 May 21, 2012 by andttrip
As an Australian, you dare to say so. You completely expose disgrace. You cadge Swedish residence permit. What a shame! Notice our country, Australia never grants permanent residence permit to foreigners who only are graduates. You must demonstrate you can devote yourself to Australia in term of economic and intellectual aspects after several year's inspection.

As an Australian, I sincerely hope that Swedish government will not pass the proposal. If so, Sweden will become a haven of PhD refugees whose daily job is to claim social relief.
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#72
09:17 May 21, 2012 by itsonlyme2
As a Canadian PhD student doing my research in Lund University, I am very much in favor of this petition for the sake of both doctoral students and Sweden!

Doctoral students should have the freedom to invest on their best years spent in this country and also invest on the professional and social networks they have already established after spending 4-5 years of their lives in this country (of course if they would like to). They should have the convenience and abundance of choice about where they would like to best employ their skills and qualifications.

This will also be of a significant interest to Sweden as a country and as a nation; since, as it was mentioned in the article, will enable Sweden to capitalize on the efforts and costs (tax-payers money + industrial companies funding) already invested on theses doctoral students. It is well known that innovative businesses and industrial enterprises stem from the Research and Development phase.

It is a competitive world and its about foreseeing the future opportunities and ceasing them. It's about thinking and working smart and not necessarily hard.. After all i trust the wisdom of the political elite in this country to identify the win-win benefits of such a move and act TIMELY upon it!

cheers!
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#73
09:52 May 21, 2012 by Iraniboy
@andtrip and those who compare PhDs in Sweden with Australian and North American countries

First of all the comparison is basically wrong. In those countries PhD is offered as en educational program then you apply for different scholarship to fund your program. In Sweden and some other European countries, a PhD is offered once the university has received fund from a company to do a certain project which will in long term benefit that country. So in this sense PhD is a form of consultancy and university acts as a consultant company which hires the students to accomplish the projects they have received money from. So your term 'haven of PhD students' is ridiculous.

Second, there is absolutely no problem if Sweden changes the law to make it even harder for employees to get PR but as it is now, it is stated in the law that everyone who works for 4 years and earns a minimum wage and pay taxes are entitled to PR. It doesn't say anything about PhDs but Immigration office thinks PhD are not working. This is the inconsistency that is going to be changed by adding an explicit term to the law within two weeks and for your information there is no single opposition to this from Swedish politicians.
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#74
10:29 May 21, 2012 by axiom
@andtrip

As an Australian, you dare to say so. You completely expose disgrace. You cadge Swedish residence permit. What a shame!

-- Why the desire to launch a personal attack on this person for discussing a topic.

This discussion is not getting much further than people worrying about their welfare or social support money being diluted.

If a PhD student has spent 5years paying into social welfare what is so incredibly wrong about getting something back?

isn't that how it is supposed to work?

isn't that what everyone else does?

how is it much better when someone meets a Swede and pack your bags and head for Sweden, isn't it the same principle. In fact even worse, since PhD student has a job from day one, while such a person would perhaps spend months job searching while going to SFI, getting medical treatment, claiming various kids of biddrag and paying 0:- in taxes.
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#75
12:45 May 21, 2012 by gorgepir
@secondGen (#47)

I am not sure what you mean by posting an article about tuition fees for Master level studies in the context of PhD candidate rights. What I wrote about PhDs being funded by industry via universities is easily verifiable, no need to bring in master level studies into this argument to complicate things. But the comment there even allows your assumption, and discusses the outcome.

I think no one here is arguing that PhDs here are worse off then everywhere else in the world. I think no one is not satisfied with the employment they get from their universities (a PhD is employed to do research in Sweden, for whatever reason in the current law).

What people are saying is that they do not think the should be EXEMPTED from current working regulations.

You may not consider PhD to be work, but that is not what is written on a PhD contract. In fact, a PhD in Sweden has all the requirements to apply for a normal work permit (in 99% of the cases), except the Migrationsverket has decided that PhDs should not be treated as workers because 1% of them are not employed and receive scholarships instead.

Anyway, a PhD works for 4 years and only receives one year worth of studies. His/her work consists of 1 year worth of teaching, and 3 years worth of research. You may question if Sweden needs more researchers or if the research is relevant. You may not question if research is work or not.
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#76
15:51 May 21, 2012 by fxrider
For those who are so worried about their and their parent's tax money being used on a foreigner PhD student's salary: Do you know what happens to the income tax that a foreign PhD student pays during 5 years in Sweden? It is probably used for an elderly's pension, or as un-employment benefit or for a local kid's education. As far as social welfare is concerned its probably easy to look at the statistics to see what percentage of highly educated immigrants in Sweden are living on welfare compared to local Swedes.

Getting a PhD position in Sweden is extremely difficult, and getting the doctorate is even more so. Those who succeed need not be judged for their competence.
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#77
21:03 May 21, 2012 by andttrip
Please do not argue anymore. You three should remind that you are not Swedish and you do not have voting rights in Sweden. The only thing you can do here is to follow Swedish rules. No comments, no suggestions, no proposals, no.... Only Swedish citizens can argue this topic. If you are not satisfied with the situation, you can choose other countries to live in.

Just like you said, you adore Australia, you can immigrate to Australia. You prefer UK, you can purchase an air ticket to the UK. Why waste time here to interfere Swedish politics? Nobody restrict you to must stay in Sweden. So ridiculous.
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#78
21:12 May 21, 2012 by Iraniboy
@anstrip

There is one thing we all agree and it is what you have said in your first paragraph. Sadly you yourself don't follow it! In fact Swedish citizens have argued about this and not a single opposition from Swedish media,politicians, etc has been recorded so far!!! So I advice you you respect their move to change their own laws and stop talking on behalf of them!
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#79
10:14 May 22, 2012 by axiom
@andttrip:

So in a nutshell, you have given up since no argument you made holds any ground :D

You three should remind that you are not Swedish and you do not have voting rights in Sweden.

-- and you are sure of this because? here's a hint - not everyone here supporting PhD students is a PhD student, non-swedish or both ;)

Please do not argue anymore .... Only Swedish citizens can argue this topic. If you are not satisfied with the situation, you can choose other countries to live in.

-- If I can't reason by logic, I just cover my ears, shout anything as loud as I can and run away

Guys, I think we know when we have made our point and fortunately this is a decision that is out of the hands of even andttrip. It might take a while but it will be a positive decision.
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#80
10:34 May 22, 2012 by entry
It is not in Sweden's interest to be burdened with out of work apprentices who have completed their training. Does Sweden need out of work philosophy PhDs? Does Sweden need out of work engineering PhDs that after all this time having been given the opportunity to learn still cannot find an employer to hire them within Sweden's borders?

Upon completion of their PhD courses, if students have not found an employer here in Sweden, it is time for the students to take their diplomas and move on to greener pastures.

The requirement of employment or family attachment for residency/citizenship is not something that should be a surprise after all those years in school here in Sweden. It really does not take a PhD to figure that out.
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#81
12:54 May 22, 2012 by Farshin
Advise to those PhD candidates: To acquire PR in Sweden, you need to become as useless as you can as a human being for the country. For instance, one way would be to pretend that you can not even read and write your own native language, never mind Swedish or English, then they would get you a translator, welcome you and grant you a PR in the shortest time frame. You will also get paid for what you abuse off this system. Conclusion: give up PhD, start building a handmade boat and enter as a refuge.

As a PhD candidate, their policy is that you can manage your life, hence, they invest Swedish Tax money on you and kick you out once you're done as they believe if they keep you in the country then you may become handy for what was invested.

This type of policy is a ? mark even for kids in Sweden but is justified with the word "Socialism" ;)

Second advise: Don't raise a question against this policy as you will be marked as a racist and against human blah blah because it is believed that it is a taboo to set policies to attract immigrants with specialities in parallel with those policies covering refugees in need of help or training in a socialist environment.
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#82
13:11 May 22, 2012 by entry
"10:39 May 17, 2012 by Puffin @ Abe L You don't seem to quite grasp that this is a matter of treating different groups of workers consistently. All other groups working and paying tax are eligible for residency after 4 years - but not this group."

Doctoral candidates are not workers. They were not hired as researchers or lab assistants. Doctoral candidates are students with stipends. Stipends that exceed certain amounts are taxable. Everything in the EU and Sweden is taxable.

If they were workers should we not wonder why their universities have no more need for their services? Were they wrongfully terminated? That is just plain dumb. The PhD programs are advanced apprenticeships.

Should every student who is granted a PhD immediately file for unemployment benefits?

What difference does the plus or minus four years they were given the opportunity to learn and make something of themselves matter towards residency here in Sweden anyway? Without family attachment or a job Migrationsverket is going to tell them to get out of the country anyway because there is no reason for them to be here.

Can the recent PhD drive a taxi like other citizens and legal residents of Sweden who also hold PhDs and drive taxis? Can they wash dishes? If they cannot find an employer to hire them for the skills in their field they must look elsewhere and find an employer prior to receiving their PhD so that they can file for a work visa immediately.

These doctoral candidates enter into training programs that they know and Sweden knows have no promise of future employment in Sweden upon successful completion. This is not just like any other worker.

Doctoral candidates are not salaried workers, they are students with stipends!
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#83
15:07 May 22, 2012 by Keyboli
@entry "Doctoral candidates are not salaried workers, they are students with stipends!"

- The information is not completely true, most of the PhD students in sweden are salaried employee. For example, here is an usual announcement of a PhD position from KTH. Read it carefully, it may resolve most of the confusion. For those who need more clarification may talk to any of the trade union representative. For example:

Trade Union representative

Lars Abrahamsson, SACO

Phone: +46 8 790 7058

E-mail: lars.abrahamsson@ee.kth.se

Lars is involved in following open position.

http://www.kth.se/en/om/work-at-kth/vacancies/phd-student-in-gaming-simulation-of-transport-systems-1.307204

Usually PhD students have almost same responsibility that a regular university employee may have. It starts from very initial level such as from student recruitment to divisional meeting, departmental meeting, responsibilities other different level, as well as performing top level research.

"Can the recent PhD drive a taxi like other citizens and legal residents of Sweden who also hold PhDs and drive taxis? Can they wash dishes?"

Interesting, Does dish washing or driving car is necessary to get PR in sweden? Well, they may give better ways of safety while driving by inventing new technologies and/or providing education to adapt new things.

"These doctoral candidates enter into training programs that they know and Sweden knows have no promise of future employment in Sweden upon successful completion."

PhD programs are the most challenging positions only talented people may get in and also get alot of appreciation during the PhD period and for sure, they know "How to make difference".

Only boundary that prohibit PhD students from getting PR is the rational rule of the Migrationsverket, that need to be solved. PhDs are high skilled employee, there is no doubt in that. They invent new concepts, new prototypes, new business to make life easier.

One more thing, putting wrong information in front of large community shouldn't be logically or ethically acceptable. There are many comments which needs to filter out due to lack of proper knowledge about the fact. Thank you!!!!!!

One more thing, if anyone who cant agree with the idea of PR for after 4 year PhD work, a kind request for them to talk with the trade union to change PhD employment as PhD education. Also with universities, that shouldn't put PhD announcement in the vacancies page.
Report abuse »
#84
15:30 May 22, 2012 by entry
@15:07 May 22, 2012 by Keyboli

Yes, the ad for the PhD STUDENT tells it like it is. It does not ask for a proven developer that would require a work visa.

Why are PhD candidates 'unemployed' after they receive their Phd? Are their services no longer valued or have they completed their schooling to the level that yields a PhD allowing them to find gainful employment. The goal was employment in the chosen field, right? If there are no opportunities here in Sweden in that field what is the point in remaining in Sweden and letting that PhD go to waste? Unless this was a way to skirt the migration process.

Why is it that recent PhDs cannot find work in their field so that they meet the requirements for a work visa?

Going to school for 4 years earning a PhD that cannot yield an employment position within Sweden does not seem like a valuable addition to Swedish society. How many unemployed people need to be in Sweden?

PhDs in fields that are not in demand here in Sweden need to find employment elsewhere. If you have no employment and no family attachments in Sweden there is no reason for Migrationsverket to grant a work or temporary visa. Four years in school does not merit permanent residency.
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#85
16:58 May 22, 2012 by Iraniboy
@entry

As others have mentioned PhDs in Sweden get employment for 5 years. It is sad you didn't know this and you find yourself qualified to comment on this issue. Second, there is no problem if PhDs could get PUT after they could find a job after the the completion of their PhD. Because they mostly end up working with the company that was paying for their PhDs. But this is not the case now! They need to work 4 more years so in total they should work 9 years and pay texes for 9 years to get PUT. Apart from this, the same argument can be held for other jobs! What is the guarantee that someone with 4 years of working McDonald can continue to do so?! But they get PUT! So it is just a mater consistency with existing laws.
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#86
19:01 May 22, 2012 by entry
@Iraniboy "They need to work 4 more years so in total they should work 9 years and pay texes for 9 years to get PUT."

9 years, So.

Yes, if there school stipend is high enough it is taxed, So.

After four years in the workplace and they have proven themselves to be a productive member of Sweden working society they will most likely be awarded a PUT.

Neither the government nor myself recognize students in an apprenticeship Phd candidate student position with a stipend as a resident salaried employee.
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#87
23:48 May 22, 2012 by Iraniboy
@entry

Neither do I! But it is not stipend anymore. It used to be like that but not anymore. It is now an employment contract with a kollektivavtal with a union. One example is here:

http://www.chalmers.se/insidan/SV/anstallning/avtal-och-lon

As a contrast, Migrationsverket has recently published a handbook and their EU section they have said that European PhDs are normally considered employed. There is basically very natural to differentiate between Eu and non EU citizens but being employed is something that has nothing with citizenship. It is like saying you are a doctor if you study in Karolinska university and you come from Hungry but you become nurse if you study the same thing and come from the US. It is just inconsistent. A job is job or it's not it cannot be effected by citizenship of a person.
Report abuse »
#88
02:29 May 23, 2012 by entry
"A job is job or it's not it cannot be effected by citizenship of a person."

Yes, a job is a job and an non-Eu citizen is not an EU citizen. That is the difference. Four or Five years in a student PhD program is not the path to citizenship in an EU state.
Report abuse »
#89
03:28 May 23, 2012 by drosophila
Most of the comments are off topic....

PhD students in the universities are the major workforce for R&D.

A country who has good research in many fields can only be strong. Research is a very long term investment for a company/conuntry but there are several drugs, devices and ideas stemmed from a work of a Ph.D student.

Big companies like AstraZeneca are supporting Ph.D students because they think 10 20 years in advance.

And Sweden must invest more in Science!

Now most of the Ph.D students may not have any actual contribution to the society but a drug that they can develop may boost Swedish economy significantly.

this is to put importance of Ph.D students. we work and we (Ph.D. students) work time wise much more than a regular employee.

On the other hand, there is one scientific reason why actually it is not necessary that Sweden give citizenship or permanent permit to Ph.D. students.

there is a general idea of rotating in science. It is highly recommended that one should change university and scientific environment for post-doctoral studies. this is for the ones that wanna continue on academia. if you do not do this, generally in grant application you make a negative impression in the frame of being less interdisciplinary, less independent and less collaborative... for example after i defend i will do my post doc 2 years in Sweden but then I will go for an other one abroad. Note: to promote this, currently Sweden is also investing in sending researchers (mainly post-docs) abroad for 5 years with a requirement to come back.

If you want a regular job you can apply just before you finish. I know it is not easy to do this while preparing for doctoral defense so it may be a bit tight that residence permit finishes just after Ph.D and the idea of giving some additional time to find a job may make things much better.

And personally I do not understand people who are doing PhD just to get Swedish residence or citizenship, it requires a different type of dedication. eg. Science...

there are more important practical things to solve such as our yearly residence permit renewals. every year a PhD student waits in average 2 months to renew his/her residence permit for one more year. the funny part is lately master students directly get 2 year residence permit.

As we get 1 year residence permit most of us can not get personal number. key problem, more important then getting citizenship, a huge barrier to integrate to the society. there are more...
Report abuse »
#90
07:59 May 23, 2012 by Iraniboy
@entry

Yes and the current rules of 4 years of employment which is mentioned in the law is in fact for non-EU citizens! So in the law there is not mention of PhD students. There is just the criteria for how the contract should look like. Like minimum wage. It is Migrationsverket which basically makes an exception for this kind of contract. UDI for example the Norwegian immigration office considers it as just an another job.

You keep saying that a PhD student is not working despite having a work contract similar to any other employee in Sweden! Despite working 60% of their time on a project, teaching 20% and only studying 20% of their time! How come some persons like you in Migrationsverket want to consider it 'student' to strip their rights as mentioned in the law like any immigrant with similar situation, can be even considered a sheer discrimination. It is like saying a woman who is a postman is not female or in another case she is actually a mother at home and not a worker so she won't get work permit! It is as stupid and discriminatory as that.
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#91
10:02 May 23, 2012 by edphillis
A huge percentage of Swedish people work in government adminstration, a huge second tier work in quasi-governmental organisations. Swedes 'love' bureaucracy and are generally quite inept at it. They also love rules. Sweden collects high taxes and distributes to their own - public services are highly overrated compared to some other western European countries. I suspect most of the taxes are swallowed by the wages of administrators. Swedes like the easy life - who doesn't - and they want as few people rocking this boat as possible. Its a hard nut to crack. Speaking as someone who has struggled through the notorious French administration, its extremely tedious and shows Sweden to be an introverted, exclusive and fairly petty society. When you are here it becomes a challenge to navigate it but you gain this feeling that you are buying into a pretty dull, homogenous, cold, lacklustre, sheep-like society. Look out the UN predictions for human development for Sweden. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_Human_Development_Index_projections_of_the_United_Nations#2010.E2.80.932030_UN_projections_of_Very_High_HDIs

Ah just below Libya. Go get 'em Sweden.
Report abuse »
#92
10:22 May 23, 2012 by borlin_alfred
Hi I am new to local and I will start my Phd In sweden withing two or so months

I would like to reply to the first comment after the article...

Just having a PhD does not make them useful or contributing employees to a Swedish company. In fact, having spend that time in the academic sector puts them back in the experience field - those years could also have been spend getting useful business experience

There are people like me who have about 6 + years of INDUSTRIAL experience ( by that I mean I have worked on shop floor/warehouse/ Executive meeting rooms,strategy rooms etc) after this I felt I need to enhance my knowledge so I opted for PHD. THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO HAVE INDUSTRIAL EXPREINCE before Ph.d

. There is also massive fraud in international papers and titles which are often not accredited from official institutions or simply not real at all.

In case you dont know, there is verification of each of the paper, while getting a visa you have to show originals, you have to submit original, documents after you start course, I guess out of 200/300 people seeing your ORIGINAL documents at least ONE might notice a fraud...

They do not need special treatment or exceptions otherwise.

Phd student dont need special treatment yes of course, that why we are saying treat us like any ordinary guy who is been here for 4 or more years, Sweden awards then citizenship right ? then why not to people who pay taxes and completed 4 years as well and WILL contribute to Sweden's economy ??
Report abuse »
#93
10:29 May 23, 2012 by edphillis
Life is so much more complicated than any of this takes into account. All this Swedish taxpayers money nonsense. I paid my taxes in the UK. Lots of them. I have been spending my earnings from the UK in Sweden. I have been working for ABF and paying taxes to the Swedish government - I am not entitled to anything free here. My wages come from the European Social Fund via the Unions via ABF. I am paying myself with my own taxes. The money passes from hand to hand and everyone takes a cut. Sweden are arch-blaggers.
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#94
14:01 May 23, 2012 by entry
@iraniboy my last response was incomplete,

Yes, a job is a job and an non-Eu citizen is not an EU citizen. That is the difference. Four or Five years in a student PhD program is not the path to citizenship in an EU state.

Your point that certain PhD programs have been reclassified a jobs is noted. So, for certain PhD programs Universities should treat the positions as jobs in the fullest sense and all benefits and costs and non-EU PhD candidates should apply for a job and a work visa. This way non-EU workers will have parity with EU workers.
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#95
17:46 May 23, 2012 by Iraniboy
@entry

It is! In fact in Norway PhD student apply for work permit from the beginning and they get a permanents residents permit after 3 years like any other career. On the other hand it takes another 4 years to get Norwegian citizenship. So you first paragraphs is completely wrong.

I don't know if you are discussing about the correctness of relevant Swedish law at the moment or interpretation of it(as done by Migrationsverket). What I'm saying is that even according to current law it should be possible for PhDs to get PUT if Migratiosnverket had interpreted the Swedish law as for example Norwegian immigration office. The Swedish law in itself doesn't disqualify the work contract of non-EU PhDs. It in fact gives a guideline that fully match the contracts given to PhDs. But for Migrationsverket, they say that PhD are first students and then they work to circumvent the current law that qualifies PhDs to get PUT like other workers. But the irony is that they believe that the EU PhD are first workers and then students. This is and inconsistency that has nothing to do with the law. The consequence is not important the actual act is wrong and discriminatory.

They don't have parity and they will never have. The law for EU citizens is that they only need to register their stay in Sweden and they get resident right not resident permit. That's not issue anyway. Like I said before I fully understand that there should be difference between an employee from EU and an employee from non-EU but there can't be a different definition of a 'job' depending on who possess it and it is not like this in the law either. If the law was that PhD students from EU can be considered for PUT but not non-EU PhDs it was totally fine. But it isn't.
Report abuse »
#96
22:11 May 23, 2012 by entry
Unfortunately Motion 2011/12 Sf259 makes no provision to elevate the doctoral student candidate position to that of a role as a full time research position with a living wage within the sponsoring company and University. This motion also seeks to allow doctoral students to bring their families when they begin their studies. This in effect after remaining a doctoral candidate for 4 years with no provision for completion nor the provision of employment the doctoral candidate and family would receive permanent residence status. This is clearly a cause for alarm as it will be a magnet for immigration abuse.

That is why I am recommending against this motion and I would urge others to do the same.

Certain positions within PhD programs should be that of full time researcher with living wages but there needs to be more done to ensure the PhD candidate completes the program successfully and is sponsored by a company. If these reforms are done I think that the PhD candidate programs might be more attractive to foreign applicants as well as existing employees within the originating and funding companies.
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#97
22:46 May 23, 2012 by Iraniboy
@entry

First of all this motion didn't suggest PhD can bring their families. You are extremely uninformed starting from status of employment of PhDs in Sweden, to the rules of immigration in Europe and now you haven't even properly read this motion! You probably don't know that family just mean husband and wife and children if any and nothing more. These families can already follow in any kind of immigration no matter student or work. This motion was suggesting that their immediate family which is their wife or husband would have the right to work!

It is the duty of universities to ensure the quality and completion of PhD programs. It is not in competence of immigration laws to interfere on this issue.

Once again you are questioning the value of an existing law. You are against an existing law which gives permanent residency to an non-EU immigrant who works in Sweden for 4 years. That's why our discussion doesn't go anywhere.

The motion is already rejected by the parliamentary committee referring to the fact that government has already started preparing a draft proposal to change law to implement this in more appropriate manner. So sorry that you are alone on this. It seems that all political parties even the far-right minorities like SD are supporting this. You don't seem to be well-represented in Sweden!
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#98
02:19 May 25, 2012 by entry
"22:46 May 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

@entry

First of all this motion didn't suggest PhD can bring their families. You are extremely uninformed starting from status of employment of PhDs in Sweden"

-http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-Lagar/Forslag/Motioner/Utlandska-doktorander-i-Sverig_GZ02Sf259/?text=true

No Iraniboy I am not uninformed.

Yes, I am aware of the plight of the PhD researcher.

This motion 2011/12:Sf259 is flawed. I have read it and I understand that it is detrimental.

I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the PhD researcher. I believe with some thought adjustments can be made.

Motion 2011/12:Sf259 must be rejected by the Riksdag. I believe it will be rejected and this is a good thing.

Perhaps the entire research PhD programs need to be reassessed. I have no problem with that. It matters little to me if a non-EU or Swedish citizen is hired for a full time research position with the path to advancement in the company that is sponsoring the research.

Motion 2011/12:Sf259 is a magnet for abuse.
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#99
19:51 May 25, 2012 by Iraniboy
@entry

Of course you are misinformed! You have proved it several times!

You didn't know that PhDs and even Master students could already bring their families without this suggestion.

You didn't know that PhD programmes around the Europe lead to permanent residency like in Norway or UK for example.

The last one is that apparently don't know is that this motion is rejected by parliament committee(utskott) because it is already approved by the government! So the reason for rejecting is approval of government not extreme delusional thinking and hate of foreigners. Like I said before the idea behind motion is not rejected even among most extreme Swedish parties so people like you are extremely underrepresented in Sweden I'm afraid.
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#100
08:24 May 26, 2012 by fxrider
PhDs aren't at anybody's mercy. What they are asking for is equal rights, not preferential treatment. They are not refugees, they are scholars and willing to stay in Sweden. Lets all hope the government decides on offering them PR, otherwise its government's loss. PhDs are skilled enough to get a job anywhere in the world.

An opinion that is suitable for the 100th comment!
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#101
17:05 May 27, 2012 by entry
@19:51 May 25, 2012 by Iraniboy

"@entry

Of course you are misinformed! You have proved it several times!"

Yes, I am also uninformed regarding the price of tea in China, and the irrelevant although interesting tidbits that your have brought forth. They do not change the facts of the matter.

Stick with Motion 2011/12 Sf259 which would grant a PUT to PhD students and their families after four years regardless of their completion of their studies and without consideration of the student's ability to gain employment so that they can support their families when or if the continue or even have completed their studies. This is not a good proposal.

You seem to be unaware or willfully deceptive in not acknowledging the multitudes of highly qualified Non-EU and even EU-PhDs who find that they are unable to gain employment within their chosen profession in Sweden. Many articles have been written on this topic here and elsewhere. Angry posts have been made by highly qualified PhDs throughout the user forums right here at thelocal stating that it is near impossible for new arrival from non-EU or EU country to gain employment. We already know that some qualified PhD graduates do get hired by the companies that sponsor the research. This is good. I am all for it. It makes sense. Those individuals who have found employment have a clear path to citizenship if they choose. Individuals that are unable to gain employment need to persue other venues so that they can continue to persue the field that they have earned their PhD.

The point that you have made that PhD students are recognized by labor unions as workers I have noted. This makes me wonder if a PhD student immediately qualifies for unemployment benefits upon receiving their accreditation? :)

Iraniboy, your talk of anti-foreigner motives are unfounded with regards to our dialog.

The practices of other countries and complications yielded from those practices in other countries do not concern me. What concerns me is the reality of Sweden. If a researcher cannot find work in their field of study here in Sweden it does not serve Sweden to have them here nor does it serve the PhD graduates to wash dishes or drive a taxi to support their families.

We disagree on Motion 2011/12 Sf259 and on Wednesday there may be a decision.
Report abuse »
#102
00:02 May 28, 2012 by andttrip
Never grants PUT to PhD students. It will be a huge mistake. Sweden will be invaded by PhD refugees afterwards.

English speaking immigration countries once adopted loose immigration policies for skilled emigrants. However, government soon demonstrated that majority of skilled immigrants can not find a job after they landed. It is terrible that skilled immigrants start claiming social allowances, soon local finances turns to deficit. Now Canada, Australia, New Zealand significantly shrink scope of skilled immigrants, instead, loose threshold for investment immigrants. Sweden can not repeat mistakes.

Sweden should employ point-based system for investment immigrants who must set up a local business and recruit local people as a prerequisite to be granted a residence permit. It is a good suggestion. Stop attracting skilled immigrants when the whole Europe experiences economic recession.

Another solution is to adopt stringent immigration policy like Switzerland. In Switzerland, a non-EU work permit holder must reside and work in Switzerland for at least consecutive 12 years as one of the requirements of granting permanent residence permit. It is a wise strategy. Sweden should be more stringent than Switzerland.

The last suggestion for Sweden is to force each employer to demonstrate detailed grounds to recruit non-EU citizens. Even employer received one CV from EU citizen, they must declare conclusive reason why EU candidate is not desirable. If the position can not attract an EU candidate, the position must be withdrawn. In the recruitment process, the employer must draft a long report to claim why non-EU candidate outperformed EU candidates. Such report and work permit application must submit to local community and local labour office for initial approval. With approval from both local parties, immigration office can accept work permit application. However, immigration office can judge whether the whole recruitment process disfavour EU candidates, denying work permit application without stated reasons. It can completely ensure the whole recruitment process is impartial.
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#103
00:48 May 29, 2012 by entry
@00:02 May 28, 2012 by andttrip

Good suggestions above.

It concerns me that PhD students are possibly being used for cheap labor. I do not know that this is true. If it is true, the PhD students are being prepared properly for the real world.
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#104
15:45 May 30, 2012 by Amia
Well, I am an EU citizen, a PhD student almost graduating and my application was rejected anyhow. I wonder if any EU PhD ever managed to get the citizenship?
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#105
16:33 September 2, 2012 by rsmehdihasan
it show a clear violation of equity and discrimination in the society...how on earth you can not count the time of researchers as a legal residence or work permit. it is better to say Sweden is heaven for of course for a particular *groups of people. ie..Asylums, cheaters, thieves, killer , lesbians , gay bla bla..
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Blog Update: Stripes News

21 May 21:34

WEEK 21 »

"A week full to the brim with LFC football…. Div 5 LFC match against Nåjdens FK has been moved. This is due to the Svenska Cupen final: 26 May, 17.00 kick off, Nationalarenan Friends Arena, Solna. Next match is on Tuesday (see below). ………………………………………………………… Friday: Div5 Ladies: Rotebro IS FF – Långholmen FC (Skinnaråsens IP) KO: 16.15 ………………………………………………………… Saturday: Vets: Långholmen FC – IFK..." READ »

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