Published: 27 May 12 00:11 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/41062/20120527/
Sweden's Loreen brought home gold in the glitzy 2012 Eurovision Song Contest early Sunday morning with an impassioned rendition of her hit "Euphoria" from Baku in Azerbaijan.
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A win here is what all the county has yearned for many years.
Shame that it is a song that rips off many others and sits comfortably with an average 1980's dance track. Sorry but now time to put an end to a contest that is no longer representative of good songs but naffness of the highest calibre,
I'm sure a lot of countries choose a song they know won't win - so that they don't have to pay to stage next year's contest!!
That way Stockholm won't have to foot the bill, and it will allow next years entries raise international awareness regarding the amount of deaths and killings in the area.
Maybe Azerbaijan's entry can visit a Swedish prison and try to talk to prisoners that the state has locked up prior to trial in the hopes to break them by keeping them in solitary confinement until enough evidence is found to take take them to court for a conviction. And if its a real high profile case, the state can leak information to the press in hopes of perverting the course of "justice".
"Sweden does not follow the so called "investigating judge model", and Swedish public prosecutors have very strong powers compared with the situation existing in other Member States: They may decide on any kind of measures during investigations, including coercive measures... e.g. phone surveillance, or detention. (European Commission Evaluation Report on Sweden, Doc 99227/2/08 REV 2. October 2008, para 2.1."
However, at least the winner, Loreen, ventured a touch of political dissent, before the contest, for which - congratulations
Exactly! So much for that moron from SVT who said he thought Loreen should have changed her backing dancer because "Eastern Europeans are racist," well guess what, Russia gave Sweden 12 points!
Take that, SVT!
Not my call to answer but I have to comment anyway. According to Wiki she was born in Västerås 18 October 1983. Now, Västerås is a town in Sweden - not Morocco:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loreen_(singer)
I don't know of any comments by Greysuede but surely everyone can agree that when born in Sweden you automatically become a Swede. In the same fashion as the football player Zlatan Ibrahimović also is a Swede since he was born in Malmö, also a town in Sweden - not the former Yugoslavia.
A child born in Sweden can't be a Swedish citizen unless one of the parents is a Swedish citizen during the child's birth or acquired Swedish citizenship before the child turned into an adult.
I don't know if Loreen's parents (who immigrated from Morocco) acquired Swedish citizenship before or after Loreen's birth. In any case Swedes like Loreen, Zlatan etc are very good examples of how immigration can contribute to Sweden's development for generations to come.
Aha, I stand corrected about whether getting any citizenship when born here...
About contribution, yes there are some very shiny examples of it. There's two sides of the coin though. Less is more, as people are saying. Though as of 2010 14% of the inhabitants in Sweden weren't even born here. Too many, too fast...
People aren't given any time to prepare themselves mentally and get used to all the newcomers. 2010 still... over a hundred thousand immigrants came that year alone. And I have nothing against that - IF our politicians would only be honest about the immigration and not just being some cowardly chickens afraid of whether they open their mouth about it they're committing political suicide! SD is the ONLY ones who dares speak their mind! Pity they're such complete fools! It's a shame the other parties are saying nothing - zero - about actual problems with immigration or even admitting there are any, leaving voters frustrated to say the least. The politicians have no control over the subject, are to afraid of taking control, and will be giving votes as free gifts to SD if they keep remaining silent.
I just told on another thread that if she's so genuinely concerned about human rights in Azerbaijan why she was doing it on the eve of Eurovision. Why she wouldn't do it let's say in september or december of 2012 in Azerbaijan or somewhere else in Belarus, Syria, Libya or Morocco where human rights records are abusive?
To be frank I don't like her music I'm still listening to Pastora Soler of Spain who was impressive to me. Since I heard Loreen is a nice person in the reality it's up to her to be Swede or Moroccan.
However if the likes of Sarah Down Fittar, Gina Dirawi, etc. are really Swedes then me Chinese ! Do they have their own secretive national culture at all or at least national original musical instruments before taking mickey out of others?
Eurovision isn't all about english language, terry hogans, graham nortons and other cheesy and arrogant british tramps people often like to cite arrogantly !
@rise
Not everyone sees zlatan, loreen as swedes. Should we begin to question the citizenship of the queen and her children. Finnish immgrants calling themselves swedes should check with @fxrider.
I agree, politicians have messed up things beyond control and they still got absolutely no solution to the mass immigration problem. I never really understood what's so wrong about discussing the problem in the media. If these new people from different cultures are coming in, there needs to be a plan to settle them in a way that they remain happy, get a job and contribute to the society. Just booking their one way flight tickets is not called planning. Unfortunately this will make SD even more popular in coming years.
Now when that's been stated, everyone should see that through my point of view Loreen as well as Zlatan are... Swedes! Their parents may have grown up in Morocco and in the former Yugoslavia... but Loreen's mother is not Loreen!
Finnish immigrants is a question of its own. Between the years 1157-1809 Sweden/Finland were the one and a same country. That's 652 years. During that time no one would even have understood the question of Finnish immigrants in Sweden. Personally when I see a Finn I don't see an immigrant... more like a long lost brother maybe..?
A more specific question than "what is a Swede" would be "What exactly determines when a person of immigrant background begins to be considered a Swede by Swedes themselves."
Loreen and Zlatan may both be born in Sweden, but neither of both their parents are. How about singer Eric Saade (who is half-Palestinian, half-Swedish), musician Salem Al Fakir (Who is half-Syrian, half-Swedish), or Centre Party politician Magnus Andersson (who is half-Egyptian, half-Swedish). Do the majority of Swedish people consider these three as ethnic Swedes? I'm curious.
"What exactly determines when a person of immigrant background begins to be considered a Swede by Swedes themselves."
My answer would be: nothing is determining it; an immigrant of the first generation will never be considered a Swede because the person in question will in fact never BE a Swede. Regardless of citizenship. It's too late for the ones from the first generation whom already have grown up and into the culture etc of their home country. If a first generation immigrant is a child, though, it is - as for an adopted child - a different story since they have yet to grow up and get indoctrinated with the values of their culture etc.
"Do the majority of Swedish people consider these three as ethnic Swedes?"
You'll have to ask that question to Prime minister Reinfeldt cause it was he who introduced the phrase "ethnic Swedes". ;) Personally I have no idea whom those Swedes really are. I prefer the phrases "native" and "non-native" Swedes...
Thanks for the answer. It's more or less the same I'd give to my own question.
In the USA, minorities are categorized as Latino Americans, African Americans, Chinese American, Indian American, Native Americans etc
Perhaps this could be an option in Sweden, native Swedes, Asian Swedes etc
Usually the swedish are beautiful.
Who is this Loreen?
"What exactly is a Swede?"
A swede is someone who is to the majority made up of swedish genetic material.
A workable definition of swedish genetic material is the genetic material that existed in sweden in 1892 and that is not from one of our minoritygroups, such as sami, travellers or jews.
If you are moroccan and marry a swede your are still moroccan. But your kids will be half swedish. If you are moroccan and move to sweden and marry another moroccan and have moroccan children and they in turn marry moroccans, this does not make neither you nor your children swedish, it makes you colonists.
This is what has been said by me re "Azerbaijan condemns Loreen's activist meeting"
20:56 May 24, 2012 by Greysuede
Who's actually Loreen? Unknown singer of 3 hardly unknown songs.
I don't think that she's so genuinely concerned about human rights in Azerbaijan except promoting herself....
By the way, why she wouldn't care about human rights in her Morocco?
So liar it's you and your own name!
Have a good day with loreens, zlatans and others !
17:04 May 28, 2012 by trade
"Beautiful song. Really ugly singer. looks like a man.
Usually the swedish are beautiful.
Who is this Loreen?"
She's ugly because she is Morrocan...not Swedish.
"A swede is someone who is to the majority made up of swedish genetic material.
A workable definition of swedish genetic material is the genetic material that existed in sweden in 1892...]"
I'm not denying what you're saying is true but, to me, arguments like that feels a little too close to that of what SIFR (The State Institute for Racial Biology) began in the 1920th. The institute is definitely a very dark chapter in Sweden's history! It lasted for as long as to 1975:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statens_institut_f%C3%B6r_rasbiologi
Of course I'm not claiming you're referring to the likes of it! But still... :-/
"If you are moroccan and marry a swede your are still moroccan. But your kids will be half swedish. If you are moroccan and move to sweden and marry another moroccan and have moroccan children and they in turn marry moroccans, this does not make neither you nor your children swedish, it makes you colonists."
Well yes that's an interesting way of putting it and in a fashion I think I can agree.
Thank you for your calm and constructive reply. I am ethnocentric, not racist. I do not maintain that swedes are superior to any other ethinicity in any way shape or form. I do maintain that i am swedish and therefore have a right to be loyal to other swedes above other ethnicities, call it legitimate genetic selfinterest if you will. Maybe the SIFR was motivated by racism, constructing some hierarchy of ethnicities or somesuch? Then again, these are fine destinctions to make and maybe they boil down to the same thing? I dont know and i dont care, i feel the way i feel and i can explain it with the help of science and the theory of evolution. Im about what people are, im not about what people should be. I leave that to the moralists.
I do not understand and i do not sympathize with this hysteria to name anyone with one foot inside our borders "a swede". I find it hard to believe that the victims of this hysteria (ie minorities, immigrants and colonists) feel very sympathetic towards it either, most people are proud of their heritage and do not feel happy about having it kidnapped to further the greed and hunger for power of the swedish mediopolitical class.
About Loreen. She is hardly to blame for being morrocan nor for her parents moving to sweden. And she made a fantastic performance (and i sympathize with the "back to basics" part of her philosophy). The problem stems from the EVSC being a nationalistic event, its a tricky thing to represent the former nationstate of sweden, especially if you are not swedish. Where i think she (or more likely her team) errs is when choozing an africanamerican dancer in this nationalistic event. To me that was an insult to the indigenous population of sweden, a message of "you have been replaced".
But still Loreen has a look as though she might as well have come from Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece etc. Would the racists still hate her then? A look on the map reveals Morocco is very close to Portugal and Spain. It's only The Strait of Gibraltar separating the countries. Personally I think she's beautiful when not having the looks of of a pale corpse like a Swede or German. ;)
Now, about "you have been replaced"... Loreen was born in Sweden and raised by the Swedish society (yes the society do raise you - in fact almost as much as your parents). The fact that she succeed does not make you or me less. The fact that Zlatan succeed does not make us less. We are still the same.
They are immigrants from the second generation but of course one can still succeed in Sweden being an immigrant of the first generation. Take Ludmila Engquist as an example. She was born in the former Soviet Union. However during the Summer Olympics 1996 she ran for Sweden and took gold! The fact that an immigrant would even want to compete in the name of Sweden doesn't make me mad or feel "less" - it makes me proud!
"The ethnicity that you talk about is only an illusion for someone who do not understand that if we look back enough, we do have common parent and we all came from the same monkey. "
A gene exist because it has succeeded in copying itself. And that is the only reason it exists. Its like a catch 22 as it were. All herdanimals are ethnocentric(or the animal equivalent), according to what science knows today.
Our genome is made up of atomic (more or less) traits or influences that are persistent over time, lets call them "genes" to simplify. These "genes" are copies of one another. The more closely related two people are, the more they are made up of the same copies. In essence, i am the sum of the genes i carry. A host of my "genes" exist only among swedes or scandinavians since they have been created by mutations since my ancestors split away from other humans. None or almost none of the genes i carry are unique to only me. And the majority of what is me exist outside myself, espciailly in my family, among other swedes (or götar, to be specific) and among other scandinavians and among other germanics and among other indoeuropeans. This is what i mean with genetic self interest, that my lojalty is to what im made up of and that i will have a lojalty scale accoding to how closely related i am to other humans. Strongest to my family. And weaker and weaker the further you move away. Functionally, me myself, as an individual, is only a temporary form that my genome has taken, a temporary combination or cooperation between genes.
Anyway, thats a sketch how ethnocentrisism ties in with evolution and the copyinggame. It manifests itself as a feeling. I believe humans feel ethnocentric because the "genes" that did not foster ethnocentrisism have failed in copying themselves.
And by the way, genes are not made of atoms, are made of molecules, which had millions of atoms in it.
Do you see how ethnocentrism and racial theories had nothing rational at all (except that they only carry the fact that we're in our inner brain stupid animals yet)? but people who support it, they do it by the only mean of their ignorance and beliefs, not by real facts.
I tell you, read Carl Sagan, It will really unveil your eyes.
here is the most acclaimed presentation of evolutionary thought in the last 100 years, freely available on the web:
http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/selfishgene-dowkins.pdf
Sorry may be I'm wrong, but your comments showed up a clear mess with the basic evolution theory.
Cosmos was not only a tv-series, was a book behind it, and this guy (may be not well-known in Sweden) won a Pullitzer price with his book Broca's Brain. The result?: make science understandable and accessible to people like you and me. For the first time in history. Even Stephen Hawking was amazed with his work. He did what any other scientist could never have achived.
That's why I recommend you him, and not a Nobel Prize guy who will only speak about an specific matter of investigation making the book boring (probably) cause I don't want to know the matter in that deep level (sorry, may be I'm wrong again cause I couldnt read the book you suggested yet).
I prefer to have the general idea, which I think is the first step (and most important). And also, I recommend you to read first Darwin's work, instead of this guy, cause, again, if you don't have the basis, you won't understand the rest.
And turning back to Loreen, she is Swedish and she made a f... awsome work and the pop culture people should be proud of it (and also Sweden), cause make Sweden a little bit more famous (the rest of the world don't even know where Sweden is, or believe Sweden might be Switzerland). Sad but true. Ignorance is borderless.
For the rest of the normal people, she is as Swedish as you claim to be.
Or is it really? Sure, my father was born in Sweden however his mother - my grandmother - was born in Finland and came to Sweden because of WWII. But then again, Sweden/Finland have been ONE country for the mayor part of their existence. For 652 years the countries were the one and a same. When my grandmother was born 1929 Finland had been separated from Sweden for only but 120 years of time.
But from jostein's way of arguing it would mean not even I am a true Swede, wouldn't it?! Even though my heart, blood and very soul belongs to Sweden!
Us humans will always divide other people into US and THEM. And we will always have one set of behaviours for individuals in our US and another set of behaviours in our THEM. It is the way we are made. These are not clearcut things, we exist in several us and them at the same time, like "us at this company" and "them" at the company we are negotiating with, us that cheer for chelsea, them that chear for manchester united, us that live on lidingö etcetera. But there is nothing that can compete with blood for forming a strong us. Both religion and politics try but they always come up short. And this is exactly what we would expect from the theory of evolution. Sure, we can sit around and pretend this behaviour does not exist. But that will accomplish nothing, except make us into hypocrites.
I mean, consider a closish famous argument (cant remember who made it):
A virtuous man would treat all humans as well as he treats his friends. Only, someone who treats everyone just as well as his friends have no friends. In fact, such a behaviour would be inhuman, alian. Se what i mean?
weballergy, the selfish gene is written to be popular science, one does not need any special knowledge to understand it and its written in an easygoing style. Its a good read, thoughtprovoking and a good cudgel in an argument since one can really expect a well read person to have read it, or call himself something other than well read, wether you agree with it or not. Its amazing to me how all the swedish leftwingeers go on raving about the christian right in america and that they do not believe in evolution. Whilest the same left waves around ideas that are totally incompatible with the theory of evoluytion (such as much of feminism).
Now about the arguments of "us" and "them". So true. It is true even to the point of being a behavior born within us. Not something learned while growing up or because of lack of education or anything similarly. According to an American study xenophobia is a perfectly natural behavior, seen not only among us humans but among other primates as well.
The Local, the comments here, are showing many good examples of the xenophobia among us all. But ever since I learned it's actually an inborn and therefore natural behavior I'm less bothered by it but am instead mostly ignoring it. People are claiming Swedes to be "cowardly wimps" as well as "brave Vikings". None statement true but only prejudice. Swedes on their part may be claiming every immigrant to be a "muslim terrorist". Also prejudice and not true, of course.
Above is also why mass immigration/integration will hardly ever work! It is only an experiment in the minds of delusional and dreaming politicians. Where immigrants moves in, Swedes are moving out. It's that simple. Not very many people are interested in actually getting to know the newcomers (in that way getting a better understanding for them). Not many people are interested in getting new friends. One has barely any time over for "old" friends as it is.
For my part, I'm curious of you people... Why I'm being here commenting instead of at some Swedish site! ;)
Longterm this mass colonisation of sweden by people that are hostile to the swedes will lead to civil war or something similar. The evil of the journalists and politicians that work in sweden today and yesterday is unfathomable. My only hope is that they succeed in destroying central authority while they themselves still live. And its not altogether impossible, the redgreen opposition is even more fanatic and extreme than mr Reinfeldt. Even though mr Reinfeldt has taken immigration to such extremes its mindboggling. Six more years of mr Reinfeldts policies and we will have 800 000 more new compatriots. People with the most violent and intolerant valuesystems and from the most violent and intolerant parts of the world. People with minimal ability to make a living in sweden.