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Analysis & Opinion

‘Who gains from immigrants being unable to speak Swedish?’

Published: 31 Jul 12 11:16 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/42316/20120731/

A report suggesting a two-year limit to the Swedish for immigrants language programme, (SFI), has got journalist Kajsa Ekis Ekman pondering the potential consequences of this move and just who benefits from new arrivals to Sweden not learning the language.

How much Swedish does the working class need to be able to speak? Enough to manage a menial job, it would seem. Anything above this – to write, to understand the news, or to be active in clubs and associations, are unnecessary luxuries that they should do if they find the time.

These opinions are not those of a prejudiced 19th century English lord but are voiced in the government’s recent investigation into SFI, Svenska för invandrare, or Swedish for Immigrants.

If you think I am exaggerating – go ahead and read it yourself.

The report is called ”Tid för snabb och flexibel inlärning” or ”Time for fast and flexible learning” and its purpose is to limit Swedish courses for immigrants.

According to the report, it simply “takes too long” for many to learn Swedish and this is both costly and inefficient. Hence a tightening of the rules is forthcoming.

The aim of the investigation was never to find out if, but how, the SFI-course could be shortened. And after the initial clichés about integration and computers, the main issue is finally brought up: “How much Swedish does one need to know to be ready for the labour market?”

Two years, is what they have come up with. Two years of Swedish language classes will suffice. For everyone. All those that arrive in Sweden will from now on be expected to start learning the language during their first year and will only have two years to achieve proficiency.

This goes for love-refugee academics as well as for war-weary illiterates with several children.

Of course the government knows that not everyone can learn Swedish in two years. The report comes to the conclusion that this is, in fact, fairly impossible.

Out of those with the worst prerequisites only 8 percent manage to complete the course in 2 years. But what the report says is that this does not matter.

Because those who can't read or write “should be able to gain employment within a sector where only limited knowledge of Swedish is required”. In other words: to do the dishes you don’t need to be able to spell democracy.

The report dismisses the argument that those who are suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome might need a little longer to complete the course, saying that taking this into consideration would be to risk “cementing too low an ambition level”.

Regarding women with new-born babies who haven’t the time to start their Swedish education in the first year in the country and therefore fall outside of the system, the report concludes that “the starting point should be to assume that both parents should share the parental leave”.

Reading this, one is dumbfounded. While Swedish fathers don’t have to stay home for more than two months, new arrivals should then be required to split parental leave from their very first moments in Sweden?

While the Swedish media has remained silent, the whole SFI-world is in uproar since the report was published last year. Twelve principals and professors write that the report’s proposals “can’t be characterized as reasoned suggestions based on research and experience,” and that there is no research to support the suggestion that a two year limit would benefit anyone.

SFI teachers I speak to are worried - will their students be thrown off the course?

Will they be referred to adult education classes where the teachers have neither the competency nor the resources to cater for their needs, or the unemployment agency, where they will be taught to seek employment next to unemployed Swedish economists?

What this will mean is that the majority of those who come to Sweden in the future will not learn to speak Swedish properly.

Ponder for a moment what consequences this will have on society.

A large group of people will not have reached the language level necessary to read a contract, or to understand information regarding union rights, new laws or what is written in Swedish newspapers.

What will happen to them? Some will be unemployed. Some will be taken advantage of cash-in-hand jobs, tricked by compatriots who have started recruitment agencies and say that thirty kronor an hour ($4.4) is a normal wage, and that if they complain they can leave. Some will manage to get ahead anyway, despite a steep uphill struggle.

I keep thinking: who on earth would want people who come here not to learn Swedish?

Of course not those that have just arrived, and not those who already live here either, for what kind of society do we get if people can hardly speak to each other? I can’t even imagine that racists like this, seeing as they are always complaining that immigrants don’t learn enough Swedish.

However, for those who wish to have an easily manipulated lower class, the proposal is worth its weight in gold.

Kajsa Ekis Ekman


This article was originally published in Swedish in the Dagens Nyheter daily. English translation by The Local.

External link: For the government's report in Swedish click here. »

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13:57 July 31, 2012 by misterhop666
I think the 2 year limit on SFI is very generous. Sfi is a very basic course just to get you started with the language. After that, you have to to go through 3 levels of SAS (Swedish as a second language). These courses are not especially easy. If it took 2 years to go through sfi, i wonder how long it will take to complete all the other courses. We are looking at 10 years+ which is just impractical.

It is also a question of social benefits. Students at Sfi get more benefits than students on sas who have to live on student loans. I had neither loans nor benefits when i went to sfi, and thats probably why i was done in 4 months. It is very common for people to abuse the system by staying in school just to get benefits. But what options are there? There are simply not enough jobs in Swede. If you want to work as a cleaner or a personal assistant, you still have to compete with Swede.

If a student cant finish sfi in 2 years, they should be able to get profesional help. But before that, the teachers should be able to tell that a student needs special attention. Hence särvux.
15:26 July 31, 2012 by Abe L
Please wake up people, it's 2012 not 1962. What possible gain is there for an immigrant to learn Swedish if they already have a language in common with every Swede? People that come here to work and speak fluent English have a) No time to participate in SFI and b) Have no use for a language spoken by a very small group of people.

The ever lasting narrow minded opinion that people who move to country X should speak language X doesn't work anymore, we live in a globalized environment where English has simply become the de facto language. Sweden has a large amount of companies operating on a global scale for whom a large reason for that success is simply the fact that everyone in Sweden speaks English. Imagine the room for useful skills instead of learning another language that nobody is going to be good at for the first 3-5 years.

And many people have already proven countless times that you can live in Sweden, have a job, contribute to society and participate in just about all social activities with just English. This language topic is really just a generation barrier that will disappear in the next 10-20 years - better get ahead of the facts and accept them.

People who do not speak job level English shouldn't be given a residency permit altogether. I'm confident nobody would object to that being made an official rule.
15:59 July 31, 2012 by Trinidiva
Curiouser and curioser. I speak fluent English (my native tongue), but I would like to learn Swedish. I think I ought to learn the language of the country I plan to emigrate to, I think that makes sense. However, two years may not be enough for some people to grasp the concept of the language. I'm afraid this will help create an underclass who will be abused.
17:30 July 31, 2012 by Stonebridge
For heaven's sake! 2 years is plenty of time.

If I was trying to learn a new language in a class once a week in a country where the language was not widely spoken I could accept that 2 years would not be enough.

But in the country where the target language is spoken, giving maximum exposure to it, and on a course where you study daily, 2 years is more than enough.

Could Kajsa Ekman kindly explain why "a 19th century English lord" would be remotely interested in whether or not anyone could speak Swedish?

What a lot of fake outrage you have managed to express in this article - best described as a load of twaddle.
18:57 July 31, 2012 by AR-US-SE
well, I have the sense some of the people posting comments never been to an SFI class. My background: moved to sweden a year ago with my partner for her work. I came here with no work, I am very well educated and speak native spanish and english. We moved from the US. I am very skilled in my line of work: web development and digital media, and no matter where you you, most people doing this will be fluent in english. As I was looking for work, I decided to start SFI. I breezed through level B in 2 months, and started level C. The only reason I left that course is because I found work. Now a couple observations, having ACTUALLY BEEN in an SFI class: some of the people are very well educated and speak 2 other languages, most are not, have come here either as refuges or because conditions in their countries are dismal. Some actually start in Level A, where they are taught to read and write. That's right, 40,50 year olds that don't know how to read... On top of that there is a "Social Studies" class that you an attend once you are in level C or so, to teach you about swedish culture, but also basic things like what is democracy, what are human rights... that's also right, some people come here and have a very little education... So I agree with the Kajsa, the 2 year limit is artificial. If Sweden takes refugees and immigrants into this country that don't have a basic level of education, or can't read or write, IT IS SWEDEN'S RESPONSIBILITY TO EDUCATE THEM. You can't have it both ways, either you are truly trying to give these people a second chance, or you are doing this to "show face" to the world (look at us, we take refugees!), but then ship them into essentially gettos and leave them to languish in the shadows of a rich and prosperous society. This debate may be more than just SFI....
20:48 July 31, 2012 by glamelixir
Agree with those saying that two years is more than enough. I did it in two months and, of course, didn't get any benefit back then. I think that a freecpurse is enough generosity and completely disagree with the new "prices" fir achieving what you shall be doing for your own sake.
22:39 July 31, 2012 by mafketis
"What possible gain is there for an immigrant to learn Swedish if they already have a language in common with every Swede?"

Then why have a country called Sweden in the first place?

I have no sympathy for those who live long term in a country and don't have enough simple respect (and the human decency) to learn and use the local language.

And if a person speaks English (even as a second language) Swedish is not hard (unless you're a certified moron).
22:58 July 31, 2012 by Aquos
And the war begins!

Learning a language is a very personal skill! I've been to SFI and finished in 6 months. I had colleagues who spoke English as a first language and they still can't say one single correct sentence in Swedish. I also had colleagues from 3rd world countries who barely had any education, but tried hard and finished the course quickly.

And again, it's not only about finishing SFI or higher courses. I met many who finished SFI with high grades and speak awful Swedish or can't even write

What I'm trying to say is, it's hard to judge how learning a new language works for a vast range of people from different cultural and social backgrounds.

If you managed to learn to Swedish in a short time, good job! But that doesn't mean you're a genius and others are stupid!
01:49 August 1, 2012 by Grokh
maybe because there are ppl studying swedish after 20 years...

personally i did sfi in less than a year and because im lazy, im almost done with sas and had to stop because of work.

the problem with sfi is too slow, too soft and dont teach almost anything about western or swedish culture.

having to go to a class where people say "muslims shouldnt marry nonmuslims" while the professor is talking about equal rights just makes my mind blow specially when you cant say anything because you are the only F*kng westerner in the classroom -_-x
02:00 August 1, 2012 by Svensksmith
@AR US SE

Sweden DOES NOT HAVE A RESPONSIBLITY TO EDUCATE THEM! That's a personal responsibility. When you immigrate to another country you most often start at the bottom and work your way up. Sometimes it takes a generation or two. If you can't accept that, then you'd best stay home.
02:28 August 1, 2012 by Spuds MacKenzie
Really well written article Kajsa Ekis Ekman! I have been in Sweden for a year and a half now yet still am nowhere close to mastering this extremely difficult language. My SFI classes seem to be very rushed, as if the school (Hermod's in my case) is trying to simply get us in and out ASAP: even though some of us are no where ear ready to leave SFI yet.

My classmates who did well and completed C and D levels in just 6-8 months are all much younger (recent university grads) and already speak multiple other languages. In my case I am a good 20 years older than them (and therefore no longer in a studying mindset like I was in college in the USA), and also speak no other languages than English, so learning a new one is extremely difficult.

Don't assume that only illiterate, third world refugees need more than 2 years of SFI: I and many other Westerners in my class are also having difficulties.
07:00 August 1, 2012 by AR-US-SE
@svensksmith

yes, when you emigrate you must accept your own responsibilities and choices.

when you are a refugee INVITED by sweden to move here it's a different story.
08:26 August 1, 2012 by lewni
Two years is more than plenty of time, people just don't put enough effort in. Finishing SFI doesn't even put you remotely near job getting swedish, unless you have a job that involves no customer service whatsoever. I've been forced to take warehouse jobs with two slipped discs because even after 2years living here, finishing SFI under 8months and having very good swedish, it still isn't good enough for your average employer. I can't blame them for wanting perfect swedish either, but t hat's another story. Two years is a long time to learn the very basics of swedish.
09:51 August 1, 2012 by Rod Munch
++when you are a refugee INVITED by sweden to move here it's a different story.++

INVITED?? Are you f'ing kidding me? These people APPLY to live in Sweden and are ACCEPTED by Sweden. And what they have not given back to Sweden is far greater than they have given or appear likely to have the potential to give.
09:58 August 1, 2012 by Borilla
The suggestion that successfully completing SFI will somehow open the door to employment for everybody is simply ridiculous. Investigations have shown over and over that many applicants never get the opportunity to apply because their name rules them out (i.e., if your name sounds third world you don't get called). That is another issue. To arbitrarily limit the availability of Swedish language lessons more than has already been done is, as the article suggests, simply another step in creating an under class. Having attended SFI and seen the variety of students from those with PTSD to those who simply have difficulty learning another language, to limit those with such disabilities to 2 years is simply improper. This sounds like another neo-Nazi initiative. Complain about the foreigners who don't speak proper Swedish, take the ability to learn Swedish away from them and then complain when they don't become proper Swedes.
10:40 August 1, 2012 by Rebel
So ironic. I know a lot of people who got screwed by the government saying that as teachers they have to pass Swedish proficiency levels to be able to teach in Sweden. These are men and women who have families and work full time yet just because a certain political party had to pretend they knew how to fix education they passed this law.
11:35 August 1, 2012 by azimuth
You guys talk much about some "benefits" but you forget that only limited group of people are allowed to have those benefits. Those are refugees or family members of Swedes. Those who came to Sweden to work or study are usually well-educated and finish SFI in very short time because it is their interest to learn Swedish ASAP in order to be able to find a job.

to #3, as a native English speaker, there should be no problem to learn Swedish in 2 year at all! Swedish is just a sort of parody to English in some way.
13:17 August 1, 2012 by theibmsstate
swedish is not international language. if you wannn waste time to learn swedish it up to u.you will get nothing learning this language,

learn german, french,english, spanish.
15:34 August 1, 2012 by Svensksmith
Chinese....
17:28 August 1, 2012 by Spuds MacKenzie
I want to add that for many of us, it's completely unrealistic to immediately enroll in SFI classes as soon as we arrive here. I had to return to the U.S. a couple of times to "close out" my life there (sell my car; arrange shipping to Sweden of our furniture, etc.) and then my sambo's father died just a couple of months after I arrived so I then spent months helping her & her mother get their affairs in order after his death.

I had no time whatsoever to start learning Swedish until after I was here for over a year (thereby forfeiting the "SFI Bonus money" since I didn't complete C and/or D within 15 months of arrival).

Two years is an absoluely unrealistic time frame unless you have absolutely no other things going on in your life.
17:48 August 1, 2012 by Sheba
@Svensksmith even from your name you sound like a pussy-whipped wanna-be svensk ROFLMAO...I've been in sweden for two years now coz i came through work and i can honestly say that most swedes i meet in my daily life always commend my command of swedish language...its not rocket science,,, i had the interest and love the language thats why i succeeded...as for your usual racist rant...get more knowledge refugees apply in their neighbouring countries through U.N..then get a verdict or reply on which country has picked them so clearly your rant is misguided...learn to respect yourself first before you can respect other human beings going through conflicts...in other words skaffar ett liv...
20:14 August 1, 2012 by mafketis
theibmsstate: "if you wannn waste time to learn swedish it up to u.you will get nothing learning this language"

Despite it's low international status, if you live in Sweden long term and choose to not the languge you're an inconsiderate and disrespectful nob, or just plain stupid. You yourself can decide which applies to you.
20:37 August 1, 2012 by Svensksmith
@Sheba: from your rambling rant I would imagine that, even in your own native tongue, no one can understand your scastterbrained, off-target thought process. Before you speak (or write) you should lay off the hard drugs.
20:57 August 1, 2012 by Sheba
Frågan är har du ett liv?du svarade inte....so clearly work on it and stop being so hatefull...wash the rust out of your heart...
21:44 August 1, 2012 by SOIS.COM
Learning Swedish is a waste of time unless you want to end up working for the benefit of some Swedish owned company (the slave master).

Sweden is a failed state but fails to admit it. Immigrants should continue to focus on educating their kids in Arabic, Spanish, English...languages that are useful on an international basis.

Sweden is an apartheid state only when the immigrants from 1000 nations band together to outbreed, outspeak, and out produce the slave masters will the revolution be complete.

It is the responsibility of every person of color or ethnic difference living in Sweden to impregnate or be impregnated by an ethnic Swede as to rid the world of this race of xenophobic people for good.
22:34 August 1, 2012 by mafketis
SOIS.COM: "Sweden is a failed state"

If they import people like you, then no wonder...
23:07 August 1, 2012 by glamelixir
@Spuds MacKenzie many of us are saying that we did it in 2 months or 4... for what you explain we must be around the same age. Even if you are a super slow learner, from 2 months to more than 2 years is a biiiig gap! C'mon, people need to get real and do the effort.
23:21 August 1, 2012 by Svensksmith
Sheba: Yes, I do have a life, thank you for asking. I also know how to spell, punctuate and capitalise. It's not rocket science.

And to show you that I have a heart, let me leave you wth this blessing,"may Allah smile upon your every endeavor," (except those involving the use, manufacture or distribution of explosive devises, and the abuse of women, small children and animals, of course).
23:23 August 1, 2012 by Spuds MacKenzie
@glamelixir You must not have read both of my posts. I explained that I wasn't even able to START taking SFI until well after a year had passed (and the new rule starts the 2 year clock from the day your residence permit is first issued). So it's not that some of us need the entire 2 years it's that there should not be a 2 year limit at all (especially for those of us who do not get paid to take the class (sambo visa holders and those here on a work visa are not eligible).

Also, I find it VERY hard to believe you learned even rudimentary Swedish in just TWO months! The absolute best students in my class (those who already speak 4 or more languages) still need at least 6 months to pass C kurs (and another 2-3 months for D kurs). Stop exaggerating!
23:27 August 1, 2012 by theibmsstate
@Sheba, we agree with you,

i know many people they learnt swedish fluently then they got job to help old people. if somebody wannn help old people then its important to learn swedish. one of my American friend he did his graduation in IT. since 15 years he is living in sweden and he is helping old people.this is benifit for him.

when i was in sweden and i was doing SFI, my SFI teacher did Graduation in Biology she was network tekniker then became SFI teacher interesting combination.

one swede guy he did Master in economics and then he started Phd in software engineering at BTH karlskrona.

this is the study level in sweden,
00:12 August 2, 2012 by Swedish Cat
2 years plus benefits are really generous. My boyfriend moved with me to Sweden a year ago and does not speak Swedish yet and as he is working full time in a different city he does not have the time to travel for classes. He had the understanding that he would have to learn Swedish fast to be attractive on the job market but as it shows he is managing perfectly without it and he was promoted after a year to higher management in a large Swedish company passing his native colleagues.

Having to learn Swedish is just a bad excuse because our immigration politics is wrong. We need to do like Canada and take immigrants with skills that we need and not just take in people that we know are going to cost us money. Offcourse I understand that we also need to take in and help people out of human factors that might not have degrees etc. However doing this we would be able to help and integrate more people as our immigrants would be absorbed quick into labour Sweden. It is the low skilled jobs that are scarce in Sweden and competing with our young. There is a massive gap for skilled people so just wondering why are we then focusing on taking in everyone that does not have the skills?
01:13 August 2, 2012 by VicTaulic
If it would help to meet a hot Swedish blonde like the "journalist" who wrote this, then you would only need a two month course.
02:50 August 2, 2012 by Rod Munch
Well, that would end most ME/NA immigrant endeavors.
04:38 August 2, 2012 by soultraveler3
Two years is more than enough time for most people to complete SFI. Most people in SFI are unemployed, so showing up to class daily for a few hours and studying a bit at home isn't asking much.

Older people that are illiterate / coming from a country that uses a different alphabet or people that have serious rl issues going on are the only ones I can imagine needing more time to complete such a basic course.

The problem is that getting a job here with just SFI level Swedish is next to impossible. There aren't enough jobs even for the native Swedes in most areas, so often, people with below average Swedish skills never really have a chance.

SAS helps your skills somewhat, but many immigrants have trouble completing the SAS course. The combination of a big step up in difficulty from SFI and the lack of actual in class time with a teacher makes it much more difficult. Many immigrants that did well in SFI end up failing or quitting SAS.

On top of that there are multiple other problems that prevent most people from quickly learning Swedish or prevent them from ever becoming proficient, even after years of living here. Things like lack of a social circle, the isolating, impersonal culture, the demand for perfect Swedish even at the most basic of jobs, the lack of recognition of education from other countries etc.

The biggest one however, as far as language is concerned, is that many (most?) Swedes insist on speaking (often poor) English to anyone they think is a foreigner, even if that person is now a Swedish citizen, has lived here for years and is speaking to them in Swedish; they think it makes them cool, smart, worldly, whatever.

It's catch-22; immigrants need to be fluent to really integrate into Swedish society, but many are never given the opportunity through work or personal relationships with Swedes to practice the language.
10:06 August 2, 2012 by Uncle
Haha. I read the article above and the comments either about the heroic personal experience or about the moral questions and I am cracking up....

YOU ACTUALLY THINK that SFI is about language? Are you nuts? Did you see the material learned there? Democracy, freedom within law, health, concept of time, concept of standing in line, concept of being quiet and friendly.

It is a course designed for Neanderthals who are dug out from Somali and Sudani villages and is directed to introduce basic concepts of western civilization. Now since one cannot define it like this, EVERYONE has to do the course. There are SFI courses with the length of 3 months for people with education, since it is so easy.

What is not mentioned in the moronic article is that people can receive salary, as long as they are in the "education period", which for some reps of the 3rd world is an excellent source of income. The article does not describe how much it costs. Naïve swedes actually designed the system with a full hope that immigrants will do everything to get introduced to the country as fast as possible, where in fact people get money to learn how to go into toilet for 5-7 years.

What the article ALSO happens to omit is what happens if the SFI is not passed within 2 years. Are the poor little, shell-shocked immigrant babies thrown out of the country? No. They just stop getting huge amounts of money and start getting just big amounts of money.

About time this bull is stopped. Even an idiot should be able to learn that beating a child wife for not having a face cover or raping a woman, who is obviously a hooker, since she wears no head cover and other "cultural perks" is not very acceptable in Sweden in the span of 2 years.

and

AR-US-SE

How much does US pay in salary to those who are waiting for their Green Card, while they are studying English on the expense of tax payers? Isn't a requirement of Green card is knowledge of the English language, which is IMMIGRANT'S responsibility to acquire?
10:53 August 2, 2012 by alexanderm
Yes plenty of good reading here!

SFI is a golden opportunity to get language lessons for FREE and in some cases get paid for although at times we felt the only ones that were getting paid to be there were the ones who didn't care about learning anything.

Albeit the teachers did a great job helping people from a host of different backgrounds & abilities to get started, for myself SFI was the first regular experience of Swedish culture on my own and outside of home, it was a positive start I am happy to have been there and I made a lot of friends!

SFI is not a difficult school to finish but one needs much more than that to get by in Sweden.
11:57 August 2, 2012 by gerak
After a couple of years in Sweden, with okay Swedish that I only learned from talking with Swedes and reading the Metro in the tunnelbana etc, and which was already good enough to do a short translations job from Swedish, with excellent English, fluent German and a little bit of French and Russian, very basic Italian (that I picked up in one month when I was there), and all these languages above my European mother tongue) - I was denied CLEANING jobs one after the other, because my written and spoken Swedish was not PERFEKT.

So thanks for the tips guys, maybe I should go to SFI and get paid for being educated...
12:30 August 2, 2012 by Freelife
I work in a telecom company. I hold an MS from KTH. I am interested in learning Swedish because it is a golden opportunity for me to learn a language with being among the natives.

However I face the following hurdles.

1. The Upplands Vasby commune where I live, did not allow me to join the SFI there. Even after clearing a Swedish course from KTH, I have to take one more exam from some agency located at South Stockholm. By the time I took the exam, the last date for admission to this autumn term was over.

2. Then I inquired KTH to join the classes there. But KTH rejected me since I have already completed my MS and graduated.

3. The last option is to pay and learn at 'Folkuniversitet' etc. The cost and time makes me reluctant to join. I cannot travel to South-central Stockholm during weekdays immediately after the work. It is too stressful and I won't learn a thing.

I am ready to pay, if I cannot attend schools during the weekends.
13:03 August 2, 2012 by towns
@ SOIS.COM

Swedes are an ethnic group, not a race. Of course, judging by your comment, I wouldn't expect someone with such intellectual ineptitude to know that.
13:03 August 2, 2012 by cogito
Sweden should be honored if newcomers take the trouble to learn their language, which falls between Uyghur (a Turkic language) and Akan (Niger-Congo) in languages ranked by number of native speakers.

To find employment, good English is a better qualification than Swedish spoken with a foreign accent (by a speaker with a foreign name). Unless you are seeking work delivering newspapers or cleaning.
17:55 August 2, 2012 by Spuds MacKenzie
@Uncle said "Isn't a requirement of (USA) Green card is knowledge of the English language, which is IMMIGRANT'S responsibility to acquire?"

No, actually. Immigrants to the U.S. aren't required to know a single word of English in order to obtain a Green Card. My first wife was from Ireland and moved to the USA after we got married. I helped her fill out the massive stack of immigration papers and was shocked to learn that all the forms were also available in Spanish, Mandarin and other languages.

If the Green Card applicant wasn't able to understand any of the languages that the INS (Immigration & Naturalization Service) provided the applications in, they were then permitted to have the papers translated to their native tongue as long as it was then notarized to make it official.
20:42 August 2, 2012 by Rogerenden
Probably because the USA doesn't have an official language ;-) [yes someone will mention that "English only movement" soon but meh]

Anyway, Swedish isn't a hard language, so people who plan to live there for more than a year should at least be able to learn the basics. It's really not a hard requirement a country could set. Two years is even weaker.

To answer the question "How much Swedish does one need to know to be ready for the labour market?" - as much as you need to do a good job in the area of work you intend to work in. Someone who wants to work in a Swedish call center needs more Swedish than some IT guy in an international working environment... AM I SMART?
21:50 August 2, 2012 by Roffe
OH M GEEE! Everyone speaks english anyways. So who cares?
22:16 August 2, 2012 by Grävling
7 percent of meaning is conveyed in spoken words,

38 percent through voice tone and 55 percent via general body language.
04:40 August 3, 2012 by godnatt
Let them go as long as they want as long as they're not getting paid for it...

Incentivize graduating and not staying.
04:56 August 3, 2012 by Just_Kidding
In the discussion there were examples of cases where for reasonable excuses one can not learn Swedish in 2 years. I agree that such cases might exist, but the point is that it may make up few percentages of failing reasons. The learning happens due to either of these two reasons (source: the teaching course in University) : 1. Wanting to learn 2. Being afraid of not learning (fear).

I think there should be efforts in both sides. The benefits of learning Swedish is not clearly shown to some of the new immigrants. Some are from societies where reading and writing didn't play a role in the life. It should be demonstrated how much reading and writing can be empowering (this is not easy, but I am sure some people can come up with good ideas to motivate and demonstrate benefits of reading and writing.

Second, if fear. Many students, even good ones finish their homework and prepare themselves for exams because of the fear of failure. However, attending or not attending their classes after registering for SFI courses does not seem to have any consequences to many of new immigrants. Very little motivation, with no real consequence for not learning makes teaching extremely difficult, specially for the younger SFI teachers.

On the other hand, if new immigrants look at SFI as an opportunity,a short time offer, a privilege that would be removed after two years, they might try to use that time more carefully. Unfortunately, in many of the war torn countries that source the immigrants, the relationship between people has a child-parent form, not an adult-adult form where people feel they have a responsibility to improve their own life. SFI should not expect that this culture will evaporate and disappear the as soon as someone sets foot in Sweden.
08:51 August 3, 2012 by mafketis
"SFI should not expect that this culture will evaporate and disappear the as soon as someone sets foot in Sweden"

Exactamundo!!!!!

If you import illiterate (or semi-literate) people with no concept of civil society don't be surprised if they don't catch on right away. Aslo reinforce that by not learning Swedish they're making their group look bad (which they are). That kind of collective shaming is far from Swedish ideals but it's how most of the world works.

Also, concentrate on the kids more than the parents (making it clear that sending the kids back to the home country will jeapordize their residency status).

Historically, it's never been adults that assimilate, it's the children. Unfortunately for Sweden lots of current immigrants know that and take active measures to prevent it from happening and the Swedish government lets them.
09:10 August 3, 2012 by muscle
You guys will never understand the fluency of local language, regardless of how fluent the locals are in some other language
13:49 August 3, 2012 by let-me-think
It is always good to have a time limit for everything. To Learn SFI forever is pointless. It can only give you heads up on the language nothing more. Why we two years?

(1)----It is costly. The state (kommun) pays a lot for that. If one wants to study Swedish in a private schools like "Folk University" - they pay at least 5500SEK per month for five day per week .and does not cover study material btw. check this out http://www.folkuniversitetet.se/Kurser--Utbildningar/Sprakkurser/Svenska_Swedish/Svenska-A1--Swedish-A1/Svenska-A1-fem-dagar-i-veckan/Stockholm/Svenska-A1-fem-gangervecka13/?sr=true But at SFI all is "Offered for free". At SFI most students never come to class --- If you study at SFI you know what I mean. How many of your classmates finish up the level you are same time?

(2)------ If people need to learn something , I mean really want to learn to know. Is it not smart to do it quicker? So you move on with your life and do other things. Please look at this. http://drsaraheaton.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/how-long-does-it-take-to-learn-a-new-language/ if you want to know who plays the role in determining the time to learn a language. Language study and Politics are two different things. They should never be coupled together. Language is a tool. Like the one we use now to communicate. Nothing more or less. Like a "Fork is a device that is used to reach foods and carry them to our mouth."

But the swedish way is different.

Swedish: Do you speak Swedish?

non-swedish: ja, liten.

Swedish: (smiles with a look and thinking that he/she is not what she wants but let him talk since he called) .Ok that is good. shall we proceed with english?

non-swedish: ja, I think it is better so I can understand you better.

Swedish: sorry , but we need you to speak better swedish.

non-swedish: but , you know I am learinig at SFI and level (B stage 1,2,3 ...)

Swedish: sorry, I can't help you (if female). (never encountered a man yet ... but I think it is better)

non-Swedish: but you know ...., I have ......, I did ....

Swedish: Sorry, but I can't help you! (wishing to close the phone asap).

non-Swedish: Thank you! (regerets his/her life ,wished he never called, curse her ...)

Swedish: thank you so much.

non-Swedish: (thinks why the hell she thank me for and says) Thank you, hej då.

That I don't like. But happens everyday when you want something but never when they want from you! If you say but I don't speak Swedish ... It is okey. We have english version of the form... just make sure you be member and pay ..... Funny Cheers/
20:12 August 3, 2012 by mafketis
let-me-think:

"Swedish: Ok that is good. shall we proceed with english?

non-swedish: ja, I think it is better so I can understand you better."

IT'S A TRAP!!! Don't fall for it! The more effective answer (in Swedish) is "I'd prefer to continue in Swedish, it's very important for me to use it as much as possible."

This is probably unexpected enough that the Swedish's internal compass is thrown out of whack and maybe, just maybe, might be pointing closer to your direction when the needle stops spinning. It probably won't work but it's better than following the established script which is bound to fail.
22:59 August 3, 2012 by Challie70
2 years is plenty for the base level of Swedish. However English is my first language and yes it should be a requirement to know the language well enough to be understood and understand exactly what is ask of you. Swedish is freaking hard I hate it. I am on my second term of SVAS now and it broke my heart that I did not complete it the first round.

Anyway to my point. I do not think you should be granted citizenship until you know the native language in any country. So what if English will or is the global language do you want to lose more of your heritage?! I wonder how long it will be before a child ask their parents what a Swede was? Your country is losing itself, I will learn the language if it takes me the rest of my life. However I plan on seeking nursing at the University because at 42 washing dishes it not for me!

If anything immigrants need to learn the language out of respect for the people who were born here. This is your country makes some claims to it. Who gives a crap if it is democratic can you not be proud because of it?!

By the way the worse thing you can do to an American or english speaking person is speak english. It has been a handicap for me since my flight landed and has held me back. I am just as at fault as everyone else but noe at least I see it and try to stop it. I let them speak english while I continue on in swedish.
00:23 August 4, 2012 by mafketis
"the worse thing you can do to an American or english speaking person is speak english"

Amen! I don't live in Sweden but I figured out very early on that:

a) they can say 'no' in English just fine (and then tune out everything else you might have to say)

b) they are _totally_ unprepared for a foreigner who can speak the local language and who won't take 'no' for an answer (especially through that most hated of question words: "why?" with it's runner up sibling "why not?")

Learning how to push people's buttons in the local language was gravy - a nice skill to have, but not at all needed in the grand scheme of things.

please note: where I live English speakers consider the local (official) language far more difficult than Swedish (first cousin of English).
09:31 August 4, 2012 by peter connell
The rules of SFI have changed in 2011 and students now have to finish each module in 10 weeks. Thats not difficult for English, German or Dutch speakers in the A and B modules, and perhaps C, but D is designed to be a 20 week course. Teachers now have to provide the program in 50% of the time because the government has cut the funding. The end product are stressed teachers and students who can pass the exams but are not ready for interaction in a Swedish speaking environment. These cuts have also affected the SAS courses. Whoever thinks being an English speaker with good qualifications and experience qualifies you to find a job in Sweden is fooling themselves!. For every positive story there are at least 20 stories of job market rejection for being a foreigner. Its not that Swedish people are prejudiced, they are just conservative and highly risk adverse. Hiring foreigners represent risk, and you need very good contacts and luck to overcome that problem quickly. Speaking Swedish is a must if you want to integrate and find work, and SFI is one route to getting the language skills. Just dont think you will leave SFI with fluent Swedish!.
18:02 August 4, 2012 by CJ from Sunshine Desserts
Who`s the hot blonde in the foto ?
05:42 August 5, 2012 by Marc the Texan
First. Don't expect adults to learn your language when they grew up to be illiterate in their own language, without ever having seen a written word, much less a book. Focus on the fundamentals. How to read a clock. How to show up. How to work a full shift. How to repeat these on a daily basis.

Second. It's over anyway. Too many foreign immigrants live in Sweden, too many Swedes rely upon English. People will not learn Swedish when they can get by with English. A sad commentary really. The Swedish State has done everything in it's power to destroy the Swedish language and culture, in favor of a lowest common denominator form of globalized English.

The entire argument is moot. Sweden is long past the point of no return. Sweden has made it's decision. In two generations, Swedish school children will only study Swedish as if it were Latin. A part of history that had it's time, but is no longer relevant.

The cost / benefit of learning Swedish is no longer favorable. Swedish cultural power is weak, it has no draw. People in other countries see Swedish art, music, etc. and it is assumed to be American or British. Which is no surprise because that is what the collective culture of Sweden strives for. To be indistinguishable from the globalized anglosphere.
11:34 August 5, 2012 by Svealander
@ Marc the Texan

Well put, to add to your comment I have a few points:

Swedes seem to be actively trying to involve themselves in world politics and issues as if they are a major player on the world scene. There seems to be a denial of how small we actually are. In contrast, countries like Latvia or Hungary (Hungary being comparable to Sweden population wise, Latvia being smaller) realize how small they are on the global stage and actively pursue the preservation of their respective culture, heritage and language. Sweden, in contrast is going in the other direction and trying to globalize itself in what I call "The Airport Scenario" where Sweden as a nation, basically resembles any international airport at any point in time (both culturally, demographically and linguistically). Elsewhere in the world, modern day "Airport Scenarios" are places like Toronto, New York, Los Angeles, London or Singapore.

Sweden in short, is trying to turn itself into a London or a Toronto on a national level. And perhaps the saddest thing is we are doing this by choice.

The end result of this, in terms of Swedish as a language (tying back to the point of this article) is that it simply goes the way of Gaelic languages like Irish or Scottish. It gets supplanted for English. Irish schoolchildren today aren't even interested in learning the language of their ancestors. "Why should we learn this difficult language, everybody speaks English anyway?" Of course, they are right, but it is nevertheless a sad reflection of how a country turns its back on its heritage. When language becomes a mere curiosity.

Swedish (and Norwegian too, by the way) both seem to be going the way of Gaelic, which like I said before is sad, really.
14:17 August 5, 2012 by Social Hypocrisy
@ Svealander

With respect to your well formulated argument...

The irony of what you are saying is rather hillarious.

Your argument seems to be that sweden being a smaller nation shouldnt bother trying to be like the bigger nations and should concentrate on defending its own culture and language.

... but that EXACTELY what the xenophobes in sweden accuse immigrants of.

New swedes can and do try until they are blue in the face to fit in and have a social life (a job just pays the bills).

But unfortunately the bigger problem is that old swedes arn't interested in letting them in.
15:47 August 5, 2012 by Svealander
@ Social Hypocrisy

I wasn't necessarily making an argument either way, I was just viewing the situation and trying to compare it with others.

Of course, many immigrants (most immigrants actually) that come to Sweden WILL integrate over time. In some cases it might take a generation or two. However those immigrants who won't integrate will be in the minority.

I would actually go against the tide of what some like the Sweden Democrats suggest and make a bold statement that Swedish culture, language, etc is not actually at risk because of immigrants, it's at risk because of Swedes' attitude themselves.

For example, it's nearly impossible to listen to Swedish radio nowadays without hearing a commentary by a Swede or a discussion by Swedes or a news bulletin, etc without somebody incorporating English words or sentences. There seems to be a desire to appear more "Americanized" (albeit from a more Left-leaning point of view). Foreign Intellectuals, artists, academics, scientists you name it from Thoreau to Service are routinely discussed at the expense of their Swedish counterparts. Based on my experience, people in other countries (excluding the UK) are much less enthusiastically "duktig" to globalize themselves as Swedes are. It is a bizarre concoction to say the least.

Of course, this attitude is more widespread in the urban areas of Svealand and Götaland than in rural Sweden or in places like Norrland and Gotland. Perhaps the latter two will retain their "Swedishness" over time. Of course, back to immigrants, they ARE mostly concentrated in the least "Swedish" parts of the country like urban Svealand for example, so make of it what you will.
16:22 August 5, 2012 by mafketis
Social Hypocrisy:

"should concentrate on defending its own culture and language.

... but that EXACTELY what the xenophobes in sweden accuse immigrants of."

There is a difference. Swedes in Sweden ARE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY!!!!

Immigrants are not and trying to recreate Iraqi or African conditions in Sweden.... are not.

If Somalis (for example) are happy with the conditions that Somali values have created in their own country then by all means continue those... in Somalia. If you run to Sweden and are being supported by Swedish taxpayers, then, here's a thought! Maybe you need to update your values too.
22:14 August 5, 2012 by Social Hypocrisy
@ mafketis

1. Being born in a country doesn't give you the right to be a bigot!

2. If they have PUT, this is their OWN COUNTRY;)

... oh and by the way... I pay my OWN way in this country thank you very much.

Can you say the same?
14:33 August 6, 2012 by skogsbo
What about those who don't start straight away, I've been here over a year and have been self employed since the day I arrived and haven't had the time to start it. I may start it in a few weeks, all being well and will see how the work/study balance plays out, but work comes first as there are bills (& taxes) to pay. I doubt I can zoom through it quickly though, as I expect to be working until 10pm to make up for my lost time sat in SFI, not doing extra self study.
20:15 August 6, 2012 by jamal1981
Hej and thank you for being so many to react about the subject.

i would like some help if possible,i came to sweden to live with my swedish wife,i expect to start Sfi soon and i want to know about it more especially from people that has been there before.i was in arbetsformedlingen trying to get a job but nothing but worse the governement took away a part of my wife salary and i need so much a job and do not know if there is somthing to do to get some help from the governement,please help,i will appreciate it so much.
00:46 August 7, 2012 by mafketis
@Social Hypocrisy

"Being born in a country doesn't give you the right to be a bigot!"

I wasn't born in Sweden, and unlike you, I'm not a bigot. I, for example, think that traditional ethnic Swedish culture has intrinsic value.

"If they have PUT, this is their OWN COUNTRY;)"

True, if they can't be legally expelled then Sweden is their country (god help sweden... no one else will, especially a large proportion of its current residents)

"oh and by the way... I pay my OWN way in this country thank you very much.

Can you say the same?"

Of course I pay my own way. I'm offended that you think those that criticize PC orthodoxy are leeches! I demand an apology!
12:19 August 7, 2012 by reco73
@svensksmith so if someone moves to a new country you r expected to start from the bottom hey? clean toilets? well well you have never left your stuga in the middle of the skugan have you?? I have moved to NYC and to London and started from the top in both cities with 6 figure wages!! that's the reason why I spent 5 years of my life studying in Uni.....bloody SVENSSONS and their preconceived ideas of the world....
16:23 August 7, 2012 by Penguintopia
I first came to Sweden in 1979 as an exchange student. Within 5 months I was sufficiently fluent that I could participate in pretty much everything. It wasn't that hard, really. SFI plus my friends all insisting I use as much Swedish as possible (a lot of Svengelska conversations!) made it pretty easy. 30+ years later, I still am reasonably fluent, though I don't get to use Swedish as much as I would like.

2 years of immersion is far more than enough to learn sufficient Swedish to conduct your affairs (shopping, government interaction, etc). I think that's generous, actually.

As for being able to function in English - sure, you can. But you won't be fully participating until you can read the newspaper, listen the radio and watch the TV news....
20:10 August 7, 2012 by Pallas.Athena
Can someone define "Swedishness" please??? is it a "culture"??? then again culture does changes over time just like technology and fashion.....Sweden should ban all the "american movies" and tv shows if it really intends to "preserve" its "UNIQUE" culture....i think the problem lies in "integration" which is denoted by a tendency to "avoid" work or taking unscrupulous advantage of the "system"....but i wonder how pointing finger to a particular "religion" or "group" would solve this problem....as every time i see a news concerning "immigration" i get a chilling idea that there is a lot of hate against a particular group of people.....which might cause a upheaval in this very peaceful country probably for a tiny minority of people
17:25 August 8, 2012 by cogito
@#67

What "is" going "on" "with" your "use" of "quotation" marks?"

How, exactly, would you you enforce your ban on outside cultural influences? Neighbors spying on what we watch on TV and reporting us to the police? A monitor attached to my radio, so that when I listen to BBC my radio explodes?

A strong culture worth preserving will always survive without needing Kulturpolis.
22:06 August 8, 2012 by Pallas.Athena
@#68

I am not sure what you mean! i asked a simple question - what is this never ending blabbing of "save our soul" from "other" culture people who live in sweden!!! we live in a globalized world if you accept it or not...what i was trying to point out was even if sweden decides to expel all the "immigrants" to preserve its "UNIQUE"

culture it's still vulnerable to outside cultural influence through tv and other media...

my concern is about every time i see a news about immigration people are real quick to point how a particular group/religions people are forging plans to blow up whole sweden and turn this state into some kind of terrorist state!!! once most of the gang stars in new york were from italian origin does that make it right to deduce that every italians are gang star??
02:35 August 9, 2012 by burlison
I think the point that's missing here is the job first; the language follows. If you come into a country and are sequestered into groups of other people who don't know the language, you're effectively ghettoized already into a group with higher chance of poor results. This is why children of immigrants fare poorly in language/cultural integration as well - they're hearing something else at home.

Wouldn't it be sensible to invest in in-demand career skills for immigrants as well as language education? If sweden's going to pay for the immigrant to be in a class, pay for a class that increases that immigrant's chances at getting a job. I know it sounds costly, but if there are growth areas in Sweden, put immigrants to work there. (if possible). At least it would assure that the Swedish taxpayers' money that went to educate an immigrant is going to create consumption sooner rather than later.
12:15 August 9, 2012 by Pallas.Athena
@ burlison

I completely agree with you. I think the best ways to learn any language is through interaction with people. I agree that some immigrants are not doing there parts enough to integrate into swedish society. But at the same time one must ponder states action regarding this. Sweden relies too much on "certification"; for example i know people were denied jobs because they did not have D-Kurs certificate or SAS certificate. Is certification enough to learn any language? my experience tells me different. though i agree schooling is required, it should be coupled with work or interaction. And we all know how easy it is to interact with swedish people when you do not speak the language properly ("feeling" extreamly lonely is probably the first experience every immigrants would tell you). Sweden also acts more strictly than required when it comes to language, or else why it would be so difficult to find even a cleaning job without perfect swedish!!! when sweden does not hesitate to pride itself about everybody being able to speak english!!! i sometime feel like, though swedes are good and peaceful people, they walk extra miles to prove how different their culture and country is by erecting these artificial barriers to integration
14:30 August 11, 2012 by Hisingen
Quite clearly these columns are the evidence of the need to speak Swedish in Sweden. So many whine about all the problems of dealing with the authorities, Personnr, lägenheter i andra hand, arbete, nyheter etc. Had these whiners taken the trouble to learn Swedish, since they are living here, then they would understand the language more, and stand better prospects of employment, housing, and the like.

Once again the anti-Swedes are out in force. Yet the Swedes are your hosts. Show them some respect, or else return to whence you came. Swedish is not an easy language, especially for some tongues, but you gain respect yourself by learning at least the rudiments such that you can communicate.

This situation is the same for all countries, and it is the lazy immigrant that does not learn the language of the country, but expects everything to be served up on a plate, demanding an interpreter! Asylum seekers are are in a category of their own, voluntary immigrants are those to whom this is directed. If you don't want to swim, keep out of the water.
16:51 August 13, 2012 by alecLoTh
Outsiders cannot be 'immersed' in Swedish society soon enough after getting here - that's the real issue. 'Broken' Swedish speakers get looked at as idiots. So its a catch 22, you need the language to get friends, similarly, you need friends to learn and practice the language. The result -stalemate. Onlookers call you lazy, you become isolated and ostracised.

Amidst all this, there is little to no chance of employment - one of the best ways to actually apply and learn the language.

So the problem has many facets to surmount simultaneously. Without a job, money, friends, acceptance - what have you got - societies within societies, ghettos, benefit reliance, resentment, alienation......nothing good.

Getting back to the original topic, is 2 years enough? It wasn't for me, I've since left Sweden because Im skilled and was not relying on Sweden for anything. I may return someday - on holiday. But to live - no way Jose.
13:03 August 28, 2012 by classic09
better in 2 years time you try to teach all the swedes speaking english..lol problem wil be solved.....tryin to teach the immigrants swedish is not a smart move...

some poeple get language easy and some people do not... you have to understand that. Also for immigrants its not tht they have nothing to do except learning the language. they have hundreds of things to get worried about in a foreign country! so take these things in consideration!
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