Published: 25 Aug 12 11:55 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/42822/20120825/
The Swedish government has promised that Sweden is to buy 40-60 units of the next generation of fighter jet Jas Gripen, and is therefore increasing the Swedish Armed Forces’ budget.
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Gah feels like swedish politicians are in bed with american politicians and wants to join NATO or something just stupid
As long as Sweden has strong air force, good anti armor and engineering divisions, special and alpine forces, no army would ever think of rolling over it with an army for whatever reason (silent and meaningful look towards the east...)
Well, Sweden stood all alone during the whole Cold War, and I wouldn't exactly call that weakness. If Ivan would have come knocking on the door he would have gotten himself one hell of a welcome considering the lines of defence Sweden had at the time. I remember an Italian officer who in the 1980's claimed the whole of Sweden to be... "a fortress". However today's defence is nothing like what it was. It is no longer built just to hinder a Soviet invasion. There was a time when the Swedish Air Force had around a thousand aircrafts. Compare that to the order of these "40-60" new ones..! ;)
I do not get it. I think that you just elaborated on what I said, but it looks like you are arguing with me. Strange.
Avidror, Sweden happens to stand on the way to Norway and Iceland ergo - control over the Atlantic, ergo controlling whether or not NATO gets to enjoy endless supplies from the mastodont US economy. Also, Sweden happens to be a potential graveyard for passing fleets and submarines - the main tool in control over the fore mentioned control over the Atlantic. Therefore in every soviet doctrine Sweden were submitted to the state of 0 resistance before an offensive continued. Point being - it is ALSO a matter of defense.
No, no I'm not arguing but on the contrary agreeing with what you're saying. I merely tried to elaborate my thoughts around your sentence "For some reason some think that "neutral" means "weak"."
Anyways according to what everyone can read at Wiki Sweden is no longer claiming to be neutral. However that is not the same as Sweden joining any military alliance, which Sweden has not.
Isn't Sweden in some Nordic Battlegroup alliance? I think that it is in essence a force that is designated to take on the first strike on NATO in the north and by that making Sweden a NATO member without paying for membership and without sending troops to strange places...
Well if I am to defend what the politicians still are calling "non-alignment" I'm out on thin ice, so I'd rather not. During WWII politicians drove Sweden's name down the dirt for generations to come, so I'll leave them to to defend their own decisions.
The Nordic Battlegroup is not a NATO-force though. It is one of two forces of the European Union:
http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/en/Organisation/Nordic-Battlegroup/
(In English)
That was during the Cold War. And even taking into account that some sort of cold war does exist still today, Russia will not invade Sweden.
You are right, it is not a NATO force. It is to defend northern Europe in case of attack on Europe.... So in effect it is a defense pact with NATO.
Avidror. And you are basing this assumption on what? On the rule of law in democratic Russia? On lack of military engagements in... say... Georgia? On love of every Russian towards western Europe? On the lack of economic benefits in war for a country that could not get out of economic turmoil for 20 years, like the case of USA in the 40's?
You're probably right, especially when considering many EU-countries in fact are also NATO-countries. And it's like Sweden already is standing with one foot inside of NATO and the other foot outside of it - as if Sweden wants to be one of those "in the game" while at the same time stand outside of it doing whatever the country wish for, without having to leave any commitments. Swedish politicians should learn they cannot both "eat the cake and still have it remaining". :P
-what the hell for lol sweden is a neutral country .-
No, Sweden is non-alined, not neutral. Sweden has not been neutral since 1995.
Sweden has a commitment to defend Nordic countries as well as the EU (it heads up one EU battle group).
The direct threat to Sweden might be small but their are greater threats to other Nordic Countries and to the EU.
Upgrading the Gripen is a step in the right direction for Sweden but not at the cost of what is left of the military in Sweden. The Swedish armed forces are in an extremely poor state at the moment with out dated equipment, the wrong origination (ref. IO14), missing equipment (anti-aircraft, for example) etc. Not only doe we need an up date to Gripen but the whole military needs an update if it is to fulfill its obligations to Sweden, the Nordic Countries and the EU.
See here for example : http://oplatsen.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/forsvars-och-sakerhetspolitiskt-upprop/
Sweden has a very large coastline to patrol. The jets are a very important part of this defence. And as already mentioned in a previous post. If you need them, why go out and buy foreign-built equipment? Besides, the JAS has the best cost-benefit ratio of anything else out there.
I never told Russia is a democratic State nor it has not attacked other countries. But if even during the Cold War there was not a Soviet invasion of Sweden, what would make Russia to do so today?
Russia invaded Georgia, but Georgia is not Sweden.
"Sweden is non-alined, not neutral. Sweden has not been neutral since 1995."
Numerous times I have claimed Sweden's defense saw a huge change dating back to the joining of the EU. The defense has been turned from being defensive to offensive. This turning has led to a paradoxical situation because - as contradictory as it may be - on the way the defense has been almost completely slaughtered. At least in my eyes.
"Upgrading the Gripen is a step in the right direction for Sweden but not at the cost of what is left of the military in Sweden."
If there are any bright spots one of them would be the development of the new submarine A26. It's planned to be ready for use 2020 and with other words at the same time as the new Gripen. Already Sweden makes impressive submarines. During an exercise a couple of years ago when the US were allowed to rent one from the Swedish navy, never did they manage to find it (anybody can watch it on youtube)!
In the case of Australia the USA is pushing hard for more USA bases inside oz and constantly egging australia on to join the USA against the red peril.
The thing is China will never invade australia. we sold them everything already. Electricity generation and providers. Water supply. The mines the ports and the toll roads. They make up a large proportion of our population buying up top end properties propping up our real estate market.. recently they bought up millions of sqkm's of farmland. why invade - they do it via business these days.
Not surprising that sweden is spending billions on US technology ( which is outdated ) and just like in oz - everyday there is a new anti islam story in the press. the usa is the biggest manufacturer of weapons in the world - so they gotta keep the wars going.
-the defense has been almost completely slaughtered.-
Yes. :(
-Sweden makes impressive submarines-
yes :)
- But if even during the Cold War there was not a Soviet invasion of Sweden, what would make Russia to do so today?-
During the cold war Sweden had an army that, if not able to stop a Russian invasion, could, at least, given them such a bloody nose they would think twice. Now we have nothing that could stop an invasion. A basic rule of human behaviour; the easier a victory looks the more likely the attack.
The most violent war mongering country on the planet who survive off death and misery.
no country in the world has the money and forces to invade and hold another major country. its just impossible. the usa and nato cant even take a bunch of nomads riding donkeys after 15 years. get serious isenthand.
the money is in flogging them weapons and convincing the gullible that they better buy / upgrade what they have. se new swedish jets that will require a maintenance program and on going support and upgrades - just like windows.
But then they haven't even tried! A is the worlds largest military exercises and there's more money to be made in keeping it going than ending the war. And yes you can -invade and hold another major country- if you have the will power but most wars tend not to have that as an objective. Small scale wars are more likely (we have many on going small wars now as an example) and it is such a small scale war that we could see in the next 10 years or so in Europe, especially as we see more economic problems coming our way.
Sweden's defense as of today doesn't make me that sure any longer. Far from it. However now there's this European Union... an attack against Sweden would most likely be seen as an attack against the whole of EU. But still Sweden need to have a strong defense; if Sweden isn't interested in defending itself, why would any other EU-country want to defend it? One cannot be completely naive; there will always be a new Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or the like.
Birka dated from approximately the year of 750 is often considered as Sweden's first town. That is more than 1250 years ago. What is it that has made Sweden last for so long? One thing is for sure: it is not thanks to Svenska Freds anyways!
Russia could also invade Moldova. But Russia didn't actually invade Moldova. Overpowering militarily a country doesn't necessarily lead to invasion.
NO one has ever succeeded in invading Sweden nor making the country a vassal state; it has always been an independent country even though it's also been a part of different unions before today's European Union; it has lost as third of its territory over the centuries but that isn't the same thing. Always it's been that Ivan to fight (and of course the Danes)... :P
" I was trying to tell that Sweden will not be invaded by Russia."
Fair enough. But then, what does anyone know about a potential aggressor's motives? No one has ever had the mad idea of attacking the US, especially not a small iland nation like Japan, right? After the ending of WWI everyone KNEW that at least now it would be a lasting peace! Who could ever dream of the coming WWII...
A county's defense is a necessary evil. It NEED its defense, if nothing else so just to make sure it'll keep being safe. Or has anyone erased the aggressive mind of the human, that I haven't heard of? Aggressiveness and destruction is in the human nature.