Swede tries to introduce ID numbers to New Zealand
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“Do not most developed countries have personal ID numbers for their citizens? Should not New Zealand follow this order?”
Thus wondered Cecilia Hall, a Swede trying to establish an au pair business in New Zealand. Cecilia’s father, Ian, a Brit resident in Sweden for 37 years, moved to NZ to be with his daughter but found himself credit-blacklisted shortly after he arrived. It turns out that there’s another person in New Zealand called Ian Hall and – well, you get the idea.
Cecilia offered more advice from the developed world:
“The only way you can ever protect [against] this happening in New Zealand is for people to have unique identifiers,” she said.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
This lady need´s to shut the hell up!
i don´t want my home country to end up like here and be so dam difficult to do the simple thing´s in life like live NORMAL (ie getting a ID card….Getting a bank account)
anyway the problem got resolved no problem´s and quickly now tell me if i am wrong but i am 100 percent positive that it would not happen like that here from my experience´s!
even with there ID personal number system it the hardest system i have had to deal with (or should i say fight with)
January 15th, 2008 at 5:18 am
Who do you think you are!
January 15th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Most of banks usually employ low rated personels (often from Third World) in charge of small clients.
January 20th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
NZ is just like Australia, we dont want big brother and we dont want ID cards. A civilised country would not dream of creating “unique identifiers” for its citizens, what a disgusting thought. Public servants make mistakes its true but it is the responsibility of the bureaucracy to operate competently that’s all, its not for us to “prove” ourselves to it with a number or be issued with an ID.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:30 am
Being a NewZealand citizen myself, i think this system in my opinion is almost sick. I completely agree with “greykangaroo when he commented, ‘we dont want big brother’.” -Which everyone should be preventing. If i remember the lastest Big Brother was in Germany, where now all computers are now montitored. And we all know Europe is going to be the leader in the BigBrother series.
“Should not New Zealand follow this order?” Why conform with everyone else. Havent you heard of Indiviuality and for that matter Integrity. If you like your “numbers” so much.. Why dont i just greet you with “Hey, 437655!”
Im sorry but I will forever hold my integrity by identifying myself as Ben ________.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:58 am
I have no problem understanding that the developing cuntries look with great suspicion at anything that has proven very useful and beneficial in the developed countries.
January 30th, 2008 at 10:15 am
I think that personal identification numbers are a good idea, but only for things like approving credit, and things like that. I am an American citizen, and i really don’t have a problem with social security numbers- which are given at birth- but if the citizens don’t want numbers like this, then they should be able to voice that opinion, and have a vote or something like that…oh yea and….keeping “Big Brother” out of things is always a good idea =)
January 30th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I find it somewhat problematic that this blog entry claims that New Zealand is not a developed country (‘advice from the developed world’).
I often hear that the great pinnacle of modern society that is Europe is in fact the ‘real world’ and ‘proper’, but let me assure you that Australia and New Zealand are highly ‘developed’, are intelligent people, yet are still receptive to the wisdom and ideas of others.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:01 am
In response to MuadDib. I believe you called NZ a “developing country” (since this blog is about NZ and not has no reference to Africa). Im sorry I have to correct you on that.
According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World , NZ is a 1st World Country JUST LIKE Sweden! :O Woah.
As it indicates on the first diagram on the Wikipedia website.
February 2nd, 2008 at 1:33 am
Having lived in Sweden for a number of months I can quite categorically state that such mentality is not needed in NZ. I heard a Swede once say… “Everything here in Sweden is now illegal, and if they can’t make it illegal then they will make it compulsory!” .. So true! Government control is always open to abuse!
And yes, there are no cannibals wearing grass skirts here in good ol’ NZ. I think we are a lot more civilized than most countries.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:46 am
As an expat NZer living in Sweden, I am afraid that I must take issue with some of the other kiwis here. Sure, Sweden and NZ are both ‘developed’ countries, but they are at rather opposite ends of that category, and most social statistics would support that. According to the WHO, Sweden has one of the world’s best healthcare systems, NZ is in 43rd place (below both the US and Cuba). Sweden has one of the lowest rates of violent crime in the OECD, NZ has one of the highest. Sweden has great equality of wealth, NZ has great inequality and significant poverty. Infant mortality is 2.5 times greater in NZ than in Sweden (just compare the quality of maternity care in both countries and you’ll see why). I’m afraid that in Sweden ‘Big Brother’ does a pretty good job of looking after its citizens (not just the rich ones), and having a personal ID number seems like a pretty small price to pay for these benefits.
February 5th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
The personnummer thing is a sick thing! What David said up there is not totally true. I dont believe that we Swedes get better healthcare than other people even in the 3rd world. I went to Thailand and Malaysia and I could immediately get treatment and paid 10 times less (should I not have a personnummer in Sweden). The state-run medical care here is functioning wrongly.
You never get to the doctor when u most need it..man. The Swedish ID number is simply a nazi kind of thing. Everything has to be registered …for what? Even at the gym they ask for a personnummer. And the first thing they ask you when u visit a tax authority (they dont even say Hej first.rather..what is your ID number?….) Civilized?
February 6th, 2008 at 6:58 am
The comments from Narre (suggesting that Sweden’s health care system is inferior to that of Thailand and Malaysia) are simply ridiculous. The healthcare that Narre got in those countries, while inexpensive by our standards, would be simply unaffordable and therefore inaccessable to many/most folk who actually live in those countries. The point is that everyone who lives in Sweden has access to decent and almost free healthcare, while only the affluent in most third world countries have access to good healthcare. Note that life expectency in Sweden is 9 years more than in Thailand and Malaysia and that infant mortality is 7 times greater in Thailand and Malaysia than in Sweden. Perhaps Narre could quote some statistics to back up his/her claim? By the way, if you do not have a perssonnummer, then it means that you are not a Swedish resident, in which case it seems reasonable that you should pay for your own healthcare in Sweden; why should the Swedish taxpayer cover it?
February 6th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
If you take into account the life expectancy of the world then Sweden is somewhere on the top of course but that does not say that the Swedish health care system is better. Don’t you know about väntetid? There exists no wait times in Thailand and Malaysia or even in Greece and Spain …you can just do a walk-in and after 25 minutes then you get treated. This applies to both their state-run and private hospitals.
I am a resident here (have been paying huge taxes in the last 10 years!) and I suffer from the wait times to get medical attention in Sweden. When I travel for my work abroad I try to visit clinics for checkups, dental cares and I can at once get to see the doctor. This is clearly NOT the situation in Sweden (whether you have a personnummer or not). Even better I dont even have to leave all my personal data to those places I visit.
You should know this well David that we have lots of problems with the health care in this very country. Next time you go to those countries that I mention …try their medical services and you will see that the Vårdcentral in Sweden has so much to learn. And these days I try to see private doctors in Sweden rather than the Vårdcentral. And if you don’t know it will cost people without personnummer 20 times more than Swedes. I paid just 2 times more than what the Thais paid for their medical care.
February 7th, 2008 at 8:48 am
In response to Narre, of course these things might vary within Sweden too. In Norrland (where we live), I have always been able to see a doctor on the same day that I call Vårdcentralen, waiting times for non-urgent surgery seem pretty short, and I am really quite amazed at the quality of health care and free checkups that are available to our daughter (and indeed all infants) following her birth. Maybe things are different in the more populated south, but up here my experiences with the health system have been generally very positive.
February 9th, 2008 at 7:17 am
I think the main kind of point here from a NewZelanders point of view, is that.. I would call Democracy freedom. In NZ we can open a bank account without some “card”.. And post a letter without some card, and go to the doctor without presenting some card. And I think most NZ’ders are very happy with this system. Thus from my point of view calling that pure freedom. Maybe Freedom means something else in Sweden, I dont know.
I love Sweden dearly but, this is one thing I dont like what they do.
In response to Davids comment: “and having a personal ID number seems like a pretty small price to pay for these benefits.” If a governement generally cares for its Citizens, shouldnt the price be free?
February 11th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Well, I know that I my last comment I acted like an ugly troll, but that was just an reaction to all the nonsense regarding “the Big Brother” and suchlikes.
BTW, I am not from Sweden, I am from a so-called “postcommunist country” in Central Europe, we have had ID cards for ages, and perhaps that is why I understand their benefits and fail to understand the drawbacks.
I could never understand the fierce opposition against them. However, I usually tend to look with suspicion at such opposition, since the “arguments” are usually something like: “a Nazi thing”, “the Big Brother”, “calling s/o by their number instead of name”, LOL, what else to say – they perhaps don’t have a sightest clue about it.
In my country, we have so-called “birth numbers”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number#Slovakia
(BTW, you can even deduce the place of birth from it.)
This number is in the category of so-called “sensitive data” and may not be disclosed publicly in any case whatsoever (its public disclosure may be a criminal offence). Likewise, not everyone is permitted to store such data and there are strict requirements for an institution regarding the storage of such data. However, it is usually used only in “special cases”, such as in forms for social or health insurance, or for bank accounts, or for the authorities (for tax registration, for court procedures, etc.)
Then we have ID cards and so-called “ID card numbers” that do not disclose any personal information about the holder – and they may be required e.g. by libraries and similar institutions at registration.
So, while I understand the concept of the “freedom” to open a bank account without proving one’s identity, I see a problem here: how do you prove your identity to the bank? Or is the NZ system so prone to fraud in that every skilled impostor may (basically) freely mess with your bank account.
In my country, one is always obliged (by law) to present one’s ID card for every transaction with the bank.
Sorry if I offended anyone, maybe I had a bad day then, but I was probably just fed up with those arrogant, self-centered, self-righteous, but mostly ignorant and asinine remarks trying to deride a well-proven system.
(And if you mean that is up to the beaurocracy to operate “efficiently”, without requiring ID cards on your part, does the installation of “telescreens” sound like a better option?)
February 12th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Ben, that means that any criminal can come to NZ and get a bank account, screw the system and live happily ever after.
February 14th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
The Swedish personal number is crazy and no developed country should ever adopt it.
An example, last week I tried to change euros to kroner at the bank.(We dont have a forex in town)Only one bank would change the money and not without a personal number!Crazy!I know people here who are waiting over a year for a stupid personal number.You cant do anything without it and it makes peoples lives miserable. Without it you cant geta Swedish ID card, even if you have its still inpossible! And an EU passport is “not valid ID”. The Swedish system on the face of it looks good, but when you get down to it its fundementaly flawed.People who think its good obviously have not experienced much life outside Sweden.Why in the hell do you need a number to do so much?It should only be for dealing with tax related business,voting etc.After living in Ireland the last 10 years I thought it was a backward system they had.But its 1000 times superior to the stupid personal number system thats in Sweden.
February 15th, 2008 at 6:03 am
MuadDib “how do you prove your identity to the bank? Or is the NZ system so prone to fraud in that every skilled impostor may (basically) freely mess with your bank account.”
You actually make it sound bad. I never really thought of it like that. I dont know why but it dosent seem to happen and if it did the banks always pay back what you lost. Theres a few fraud cases but nothing big that we worry too much.
streja ” that means that any criminal can come to NZ and get a bank account, screw the system and live happily ever after.”
- I think in our case if you sound like a foreigner we start to question if you’re genuine. I think in those cases they ask for a passport. But if you sound like youre a NZ’der or Australian, and i think our accents are pretty hard to do, they dont worry or rarely they might ask you to come back an present a Birth Certificate.
Your treating our Bank Accounts like Swiss Bank Accounts, info is freely avaliable to the government and any other government that might need it in the case that we might be holding funds for a criminal.
Plus if we think about it positively criminals in some cases help full an economy. Eg. Israel and its Russian Mafia. (I think in a BBC Report the Mafia generates 13% of Israel’s Economy)
And Whys this all about Bank Accounts?!?! A Bank Account is just a Bank Account no matter who owns it. Its just money. Who cares.
So we maybe be extremely leanient in our country, NZ’ders are not world renound for being people who think ahead. eg. Last week was our first plane hijacking in NZ, now they’ve just come to the conclusion that they might have to bump up security on Domestic Routes.
(..So i think that paragraph explains alot about NZ’ders and how we think, or in this case not much at all :)
February 15th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I am from NZ, I dont think a person number would be gladly welcomed in NZ. We got a system that is working fine, and has done since our existance. I have had no problems in the past, and be dammed if Im gonna hand over my finger print either (like some swedish firms) sure there are more than one person with the same name, but thats what birthdates are for!! Our system does our 4 million fine!! Personally I think the swedish person who is suggesting ideas for NZ should worry about their own country!! You dont wanna get me started on things to change in Sweden, but to be honest, its not my place to do so!! (Im not a Swede) Peace
February 19th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Ok then…Who wants to join me? Lets go to new zeeland for 1 year to adopt the accent and then go and scam some banks! It cant be that easy but if it is then its f*cking dogs bull*x..prepare to get invaded! Well I dont know if its because of to much shagging of sheeps down there but it seems that NZ have even a more sophisticated control of the people so that they dont even need to show ID for opening up a bank account! To make people believe they live safe and free have always been a powerful tool of control. And I have some questions, how the hell do u control all the chinks that are living in NZ studying there etc etc? In your Passports dont you have passport numbers? Or 5 sheeps if u come from Wellingtong and 3 sheeps if u come from Christchurch? ; )
Im a skanky Swede ;)
February 20th, 2008 at 9:06 am
Okej.
At the start of this Blog this guy got “credit-blacklisted” right.. The same company that’s been appointed by the government does all this work of blacklisting, bank account verification. Blah Blah. Eg. On you application you’ve said I live at such and such address. They go and verify all that.
So when we open up an account all we have to do is write down our details like Name, Address, Phone etc. And if we like our IRD number for less tax. It might take a 5-7 days for your account to be verified and fully opened and accessible.
So all up Extra work for them, less work for us. Im sorry I cant remember what the company name is called.
Oh & more Sorries by the way, you forget what this company does for you, and it wasnt until the other day i got reminded.
But I guess theres still the point we dont need to produce ID for a bank account.
February 21st, 2008 at 1:32 am
The simple minded always follow their leader’s opinions, don’t they, Cecilia?
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:24 am
Response to David M.
Are you making references to saying that NZ’ders can’t think for themselves, and that we let the government do it for us?
Just to make things clear, this company has been appointed by the government because its trustworthly and wont release our details to 3rd parties. Also giving this company access to records saying we’re legally in this country.
But I happen to think we can think for ourselves, considering we had mass protests all over NZ in just about every town, to stop the Anti-Smacking Bill getting passed. [I understand why Sweden has banned it. But in NZ, it's different.]
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:21 am
So David M….u then say that there can never be a good leader?? Im not saying that Im following the leaders opinion but what Im saying is that with your statement there can never be a good leader in your opinion and that a leader can never have a good opinion…!! Cant you see that your statment has a lot of weakness? If it wasnt for leaders in the past and present you wouldnt even be able to think what u just wrote! You wouldnt even think about it…
February 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I love that both a new zealander and a swede responded to the comment about the simpleminded following their leaders. very interesting…
March 12th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
As a swede I must agree to the critisism against personnummer. From an early age my parent taught me to be very careful with giving out my PN. It is simply too much information to give someone.
I can understand the hazzle with piercing the swedish bureaucracy to obtain a PN, but you will have similar problems in most countries, especially in the EU.(unfortunately) When you do have your PN most things goes smoother than in many other countries, however this is not enough reason to violate peoples privacy to current extent.
Swedish people are too used to everything being tied to the PN. Working abroad with swedish clients I am amazed by the belief in the system and the willingness to give out the PN. “No, I don’t know the case number nor my IBAN-code, can I give you my PN and you sort it out?”
To all of you who DO have a PN: Be restrictive with giving out the number, and insist on not doing so when not dealing with proper authorities (hospital/police/tax office).
For those of you who DO NOT have a PN: If you are a EU citizen, point out the schengen agreement stating that a EU passport IS a valid ID. A national ID card will also do.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 pm
Hey
Calm down .. big brother .. small brother its just a suggestion ..
i personally i think the ID number and cards are very useful and make the dial life so easy ..
i been living somewhere before Sweden where i stayed 4 years .. and i didn’t have any kind of ID .. and its horrible .. where ever you go you might need your passport .. is something wrong happened you cant prove who you are ..
so i think its a such a great thing in Sweden ..simple easy and effective ..
May 15th, 2008 at 9:54 am
I think that down here in Aotearoa we have a completely different mentality on that side of life. We are much more casual about most things, and people enjoy doing what they want when they want. This means that many Kiwis might feel uncomfertable with this whole “big brother” thing. Personally I feel the NZ system is working just fine, why fix what aint broke. Anyway NZ has always done things diferently, thats what make us unique.
BTW, Im moving to Sweden for a year next year, so ill be abel to see the other way of live. I cant wait!!!
June 19th, 2008 at 11:41 am
what a fuss! every country has her way to make things work. The way is good as long as ppl there are happy about it. When going abroad, one must be ready to accept facts different from your own coutry instead of lecturing!