Polly Toynbee gets her Swedish facts wrong
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For Polly Toynbee, doyenne of the column pages of the Guardian, Sweden has long been the promised land. For her, it was the one place that prioritised welfare over tax cuts, took redistribution of wealth seriously and gave the state a sufficiently big role in the lives of its citizens. She has vehemently expressed her displeasure with the Swedish electorate for voting out the Social Democrats in 2006. So far, fair enough.
Problem is, to judge by her latest article, she doesn’t really know an awful lot about Sweden. Despite frequent trips over here, the article is riddled with misunderstandings and embarrassing factual errors – as contributors to our discussion forum have pointed out.
It’s tempting to leave Polly be, given that we’re bound to be accused of grinding political axes, but the readers of her article deserve to be given an accurate account of the facts. Here is what she got wrong:
Toynbee’s version:
What has Reinfeldt done? A lot more than voters bargained for. Welfare reform has been radical: benefits are cut and so are taxes. Everyone in work gets new tax credits: in Britain tax credits are benefits aimed at the poorest, in Sweden they are tax cuts for all.
The facts:
All this was in the Alliance’s joint manifesto and was debated ad nauseam in the run-up to the election in endless news programmes and televised debates.
Tax credits for people in work were a central plank of the Alliance’s plan to get more people into the labour market.
The Swedish media are nothing if not thorough when it comes to debating the minutiae of policy, and this proposal was no exception. Other tax cuts included the reform of property tax. In fact, the cuts to this tax have been smaller than initially suggested.
In short, while it can be claimed that the ideas have since lost popularity, Toynbee should not imply that the policies of the government differ from those on which they won the election.
Toynbee’s version:
Cuts have been made to benefits for the long-term unemployed and to people on long periods of sick leave.
The facts:
Again, all in the manifesto.
Also, worth remembering that Swedish unemployment benefits are still pretty generous compared to most other countries. For a start, even now Swedes who are members of the unemployment schemes earning under 23,000 kronor a month (about £23,000 a year) get 80 percent of their former income for the first 80 days of unemployment. The difference is that after 200 days this falls to 70 percent. After 450 days it falls to 65 percent. People whose previous earnings were over 23,000 a month get 680 kronor a day for the whole time.
Toynbee’s version:
National insurance contributions have been raised sharply, with the unplanned effect that nearly half a million of the lowest paid have walked away from the scheme, leaving them nothing if they lose their jobs.
The facts:
What Polly is referring to is premiums to the union-run unemployment insurance (A-Kassa) schemes. The rises have indeed led to lots of people leaving the schemes.
However, those who leave the schemes are not ‘left nothing if they lose their jobs’, contrary to what Toynbee says. Everyone is eligible for council-administered subsistence benefits, even if they are not members of the A-Kassa.
Toynbee’s version:
Since the scheme is administered via the unions, union membership has dropped by the same amount
The facts:
True that union membership has fallen, but wrong to imply that this is simply down to A-Kassa changes. The picture is more complex.
Contrary to what Toynbee appears to believe, although the A-Kassa schemes are run by the unions, membership of the A-Kassa and membership of the union are today completely separate. You don’t have to be a union member to belong to a scheme, nor is there any obligation on members of most unions to belong to a scheme.
In service sector union TCO, for example, many have left the A-Kassa while staying in the union. TCO’s boss, while blaming the increased A-Kassa premiums for a portion of the drop in membership, has admitted that much of the fall is due to the fact that many young people no longer see the point in joining a union. Union membership was already falling before the current government took office.
Toynbee’s version
This wasn’t what the public voted for and polls show Reinfeldt’s government extremely unpopular.
The facts:
The second half of this statement is partially true, to judge by opinion polls (see below). The first half is more debatable – pretty much everything the government has done was in its manifesto.
Toynbee’s version
Meanwhile more of the health service is contracted out, with GPs free to charge for the first time, raising alarms that they are moving out of poor areas to richer places where they can earn more.
The facts:
It is true that healthcare providers in Stockholm have been given more freedom to decide where and how to establish surgeries. It is also true that there are signs that this is leading to clinics leaving poorer areas and moving into middle-class areas. But it is not true that GP’s are ‘free to charge for the first time’. Even under the Social Democrats, Swedes had to pay to use the health service – including paying a fee every time they visited the doctor, had an x-ray, went to the dentist etc. That remains true today, but the current government is not to blame.
Toynbee’s version
State-owned Absolut vodka has been sold to the French, and state-owned liquor stores are about to be sold off too.
The facts:
First part true; second part absolutely made up. Some people in the Moderate Party would love to abolish the Systembolaget liquor stores, but it is light years from being government policy. In fact, the government has made strenuous efforts to defend Systembolaget against challenges to various aspects of the monopoly from the European Commission.
Something Toynbee also seems to have failed to notice is that this is not a Moderate Party government, it is an Alliance government of four parties, three of which are strongly opposed to getting rid of Systembolaget. In fact, the public health minister, responsible for Systembolaget, is a Christian Democrat – and they are if anything even keener than the Social Democrats of keeping booze sales in government hands.
Toynbee’s version
Museums that were always free now charge high entry fees – for British visitors a crisp reminder of the Thatcher years.
The facts:
True that museums are now charging entry fees. False that they were ‘always free’. Entry charges were abolished by the Social Democrats in 2005.
Toynbee’s version:
At present, the Swedes look certain to vote out the right: the nation’s history is of social democracy punctuated by brief evictions as wake-up warnings. This time they voted for a wolf in sheep’s clothing and are now appalled at what may be permanent damage to the successful Swedish model of cooperation between unions and industry, with high taxes and a generous welfare state.
The facts:
True that the Alliance has trailed in the polls since being elected, and the Social Democrats look like a reasonably fair bet for 2010, but it is frankly taking it a bit far to suggest that they ‘look certain to vote out the right.’ In a Skop poll two days ago, the opposition was leading the government by about 5 points, Reinfeldt & Co having closed the gap substantially since their nightmare start. If Reinfeldt’s five percent poll deficit is a signal of certain defeat, then Gordon Brown, trailing by 11 points, must be heading for electoral annihilation.
Toynbee’s version:
The Swedish social democrats have a popular new leader in Mona Sahlin.
The facts:
Well, she’s reasonably popular, and certainly more popular than Göran Persson was in the run-up to the last election. Thing is, she’s still less popular than Fredrik Reinfeldt, according to a poll published by Synovate last month. In another poll released by Demoskop last month, Reinfeldt is more popular among both women and men, and beats her in all age categories.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Well, for a long time I have held a very low opinion of Polly Toynbee’s supposed “journalism”.
Check out http://factcheckingpollyanna.blogspot.com/
I believe that journalism should first and foremost be reportage – Toynbee is a “columnist” and thus a dispenser of ill-informed opinion. Also, she has a strong political bias.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
I must say that I think your article is somewhat petty, looks like tit for tat journalism. It is very common for media reports to be wrong and that is in all counties, I can remember one Swedish newspaper claiming that Bin Laden had been killed, on two different occasions. The media is supposed to report the news, but in many cases writes in such a way so as to manipulate others for their own means. This is never reported.
Referring to your article on Reinfeldt and reform, my wife was half way through studying to be an assistant nurse, when Reinfeldt came into power, one of his first jobs was to take away her training allowance, she had to finish paying for the course herself. She is now a fully trained assistant nurse on a low income. Do the media cover this, no? When Sweden boasts of it welfare state do the Swedish media report that most of its staff are very low incomes, no? Don’t worry about what other people are reporting, please ensure you report the right things? I read The Local almost every day and find it quite good, not being very good at Swedish myself I find it very useful for getting the local news. I do find your article smears The Local’s credibility a little.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:23 am
I have a very hard time believing that Reinfeldt would be more popular than Mona Shalin. Sure, she isn’t perhaps the most popular one, but I know that a LOT of Swedes (including myself) have realized we did the same mistake this time, as we did the last time we let the Moderates in charge to run our country in the ground. I blame the social democratics election movement, and Göran Persson for this, and to some extent the gullible Swedish people that don’t really read the Moderate manifesto. The “New” Moderates are about as new as nicotine in a cigarette compared to a cigarr. It’s all still poisonous.
I am SO darn upset by the fact that they sold out Vin & Sprit, I mean it’s great for their term, they won’t have any economical difficulties, but when people have to clean up after them later on we’ll all be worse off. I cant believe how stupid that is.
Lots of friends that voted for Moderaterna are now really in shame. Sure, Socialdemokraterna needed something drastical to happen to shape up, but it makes me want to have 1-year elections, so they can get a slap on the wrist for one year, and not let the only other option ruin our economy.
There are also so many things they could have done, being liberals, like adding more nuclear power (or at least stop the destruction of the plants we have!), or more free telecommunicative communication.
I don’t know anythign about this Polly, but there sure are a lot of Swedes that are very disappointed in their government. Knowing Swedes though, I bet ya we’ll have another Moderate/rightist govermnent 16 years from now again for a 4 year term to continue to wreack havoc in our politics. God, why don’t we EVER learn?
April 9th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
@Ray – It’s important to point out the facts. When journalists report incorrectly a correction is anything but tit for tat.
@Gunnar – there are a whole lot of Swedes who are pleased with the direction of the government also. In fact the opinion polls of the government have been showing an increase in those who view them positively. It will be interesting to see how this develops as Sweden gets closer and closer to a new election. Because you are right… it seems every few years Sweden decides to go a bit more conservative before going back to the social democrats, but at the same time even the fact that the conservatives won shows some degree of displeasure with the social democrats.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
I have to say this is a somewhat queer and pretty pointless article. I’m struggling to make head or tail of what the writer was trying to acheive in creating such a structure and framed dialectic. I read at the outset expecting some substanial and significant errors on the part of Toynbee, but in the end the smoking gun was more like damp squib. The article blusters but never fixes on anything substanial, perhaps because there isn’t anything substanial to be critical about.
Of course Toynbee wasn’t a 100% correct in her remarks, but from what I can gather(from reading this piece) the general thrust of her argument seems fairly correct-if slightly exaggerated and polemical. But if this is her crime, then lets apply such critical standards to ‘both’ sides of the political spectrum. If this did happen (in the local)then I could accept this article more, but the simple fact is that it just doesn’t happen.
April 10th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Your are nit-picking James. You obviously do have a political axe to grind. Try sticking to journalism – you’ve been pretty good at that up to now.
April 10th, 2008 at 8:39 am
I lived in Sweden from 2001 – 2003 and like Toynbee held a high opinion of it’s society. My last visit there a few months ago was the first time that I had seen beggars on the streets.
April 10th, 2008 at 9:45 am
journalism should stick to the facts. this blog post works to point out the facts.
allowing this sort of nonsense from toynbee serves only to further the idea that the conservative government in power has lied and driven sweden into the ground. which is ridiculous.
correcting mistaken reporting is not grinding a political axe.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
To criticize one article for pointing out factual errors in another is ridiculous. It’s called debate.
And this is not just any columnist we’re talking about. Polly Toynbee is extremely influential in the UK. Sweden, and her supposed expertise on the subject, is one of her greatest weapons. If her facts are wrong then that should be pointed out, repeatedly, until she stops using them.
Heavyweight political journalists should not be given carte blanche to mislead and if that means nitpicking their articles then fair enough.
Hopefully Polly has seen James savage’s article and if that makes her a little bit more careful in checking her facts in future, then that’s reason enough to have done it.
Probably won’t make one iota of difference to what she writes though, so the second reason it’s worth doing is that perhaps a few more of her readers will treat her articles with more scepticism.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
HairySwede, You are obviously a right wing conservative and I would to point out that this is tit for tat journalism, and I do believe there is a political axe to grind, other wise the article would not exist.
Regarding Reinfeldt he has lied on the promises he made to get elected. And believe it or not, real unemployment is higher then before, inflation is increasing and exports are falling. All major Swedish companies are reporting poor financial reports. So may Toynbee can see the future.
April 10th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
And what does this tell you, these are today’s headlines
Government promises further tax cuts
Poll: Swedes prefer paying high taxes
April 10th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Ray you are obviously a left wing liberal. I would like to point out that the correction of misleading journalism is anything but tit for tat journalism but instead upholds the integrity that all journalists should strive for.
if you are choosing to argue that there is a political axe to grind you should acknowledge that had the esteemed Polly Toynbee stuck to actual facts rather than trying to disparage the conservative movement in sweden there would never have been a need for this response. but that’s probably not a political axe? since it is liberal and left wing?
and explain to me how reinfeldt has lied exactly? because he lowered taxes like he promised? because he cut long term unemployment benefits like he promised? what a liar…
Interestingly enough unemployment has fallen from 7.8% to 5.2% from 2005 to 2007. A decrease in unemployment since the moderates have taken office.
Ill give you that inflation has gone up. But is still hovering right around 3%. Not exactly a huge concern.
And your comment about all major swedish companies reporting poor financial statements is just kind of ridiculous. While some have dropped others have seen a solid increase. For example H&M increased profits by 19% in the first quarter. So lets not make broad generalizations.
April 10th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
And the headlines tell me that the Swedes are confused. Because they voted in a government that promised a platform of tax cuts and have done just that yet the Swedesthen say they want to pay higher taxes.
It also makes a statement about the Swedish pysche. It’s almost like Swedes are afraid to handle their own money and would prefer the government take care of them.
April 11th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Hello HairySwede, I congratulate you for you stubbiness. As a typical conservative you are not going to listen to other points of view, but you continue to believe anything that this current government is telling you. Unemployment is higher then under the previous government, Reinfeldt has stopped unemployed people from claiming more then one period of a-kassa. Reinfeldt then claims if people are not claiming benefit then they are employed, thus distorting the truth, this is a similar trick player by Thatcher in the UK.
Regarding tax cuts once again Reinfeldt has fooled the people, yes he reduces your income tax a little, then cuts your travel to work allowances, increases fuel tax, increase what you pay for a-kassa, it just goes on and people are worst off, I do not not anyone who says they are better off, only the filthy rich benefit. The conservatives don’t care about you they care about themselves.
Yes I did over look H&M have posted pre tax profits, although I must point out that most of this comes from overseas The remainder are posting losses or predicting losses.
Regarding people wanting higher taxes, well this is a typical conservative response, your answer is like saying the people are stupid, as they can not handle their own money. The truth is the government is not listening to the people. You must understand when you make tax cuts something has to go, and the things that will suffer are health and education.
And as for you saying I am a left wing liberal person you are wrong once again, I am from the common sense party.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I love how you constantly throw out the conservative accusation and I quote (as you were the first to bring this up) “You are obviously a right wing conservative” yet when I turn it around and point out then that you must be a left wing liberal you then claim to be from the common sense party.
And I’m all for listening to other points of view. But to convicne me otherwise I need some sort of facts to back up these claims. And since I provided facts you tried to claim they were flase because of some sort of vast conspiracy. Unemployment rates have been measured basically the same for years. It didn’t suddenly change when a different party took control.
I in turn have decided that I am from the realist party. It’s a new party. I just staretd it today. It works to bring forth truth in journalism and provide proof to any sort of political claim that lends itself more towards rhetoric than truth.
it’s not easy ray. you throw out all of these claims yet do nothing to back them up.
my point about swedes being confused is that in the end they are the ones that voted in this government. and did so knowing that they had promised to cut taxes. why vote for something that you don’t believe in. hence the swedish confusion. And so some people are fired up. But a year later Reinfeldt is still more popular than Sahlin, and the popularity of the government in question continues to rise according to just about every opinion poll you look at.
but seeing as you are a left wing liberal person you aren’t going to listen to other points of view. I congratulate you for your stubornness. Not your stubiness. I know nothing about that…
April 11th, 2008 at 10:10 am
In all honesty though Im not interested in your views on politics and you probably dont want to hear mine. My main concern when commenting here was simply that I think it is a good idea for journalists to eb held accountable. even if it is by other journalists. or especially when it is by other journalists.
misrepresenting ideas and facts doesn’t speak well for journalism as a whole.
and while some of the points that Polly Toynbee has refuted by the local aren’t huge they are nonetheless misrepresented. and in turn should be corrected. regardless of politics. had it been some conservative nutjob making false claims then those claims should also be corrected.
April 11th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
When I first read the blog headline I thought it was a bit odd. After reading the charged introduction it became clear what the political orientation of the comment was going to be. In the end I agreed with Kris’s remark about Savage’s piece: “in the end the smoking gun was more like damp squib.” Pointing out factual errors is fine, but exaggerating their significance usually implies other motives are at work than simply ‘setting the facts straight.’
I have to say that the general descriptions in Toynbee’s article were a pretty accurate reflection of what is happening in Sweden at the moment. I mean, if you were going to characterize the Swedish government’s current program it would be one of tax cuts that mainly benefit the better-off, cuts to social welfare, and privatizations. These are the facts. If you want to debate whether these policies are good or not, it becomes a political debate, to which Savage’s blog post belongs. This is also borne out by the comments so far. The blog post was a political piece from the outset and everyone that read it knew so.
I don’t think some of Toynbee’s quotations that Savage uses are incorrect. For example:
Tonybee: “Cuts have been made to benefits for the long-term unemployed and to people on long periods of sick leave.”
Savage: “Again, all in the manifesto.”
Savage does not refute Tonybee’s statement, because it is true. Why try to deny it? Seriously, why?
Tonybee: “What has Reinfeldt done? A lot more than voters bargained for.”
Savage: “All this was in the Alliance’s joint manifesto and was debated ad nauseam in the run-up to the election in endless news programmes and televised debates.”
I actually think Tonybee is correct. Savage implies that because a party’s policies are stated in their election manifesto and that they were publicized elsewhere in the media mean that the electorate, even those that voted for the government, are 1) familiar with these policies and 2) agree with them. This is a very superficial view of politics. I would argue that the government did not get voted in, but rather the Social Democrats got voted out. Those that voted for the coalition parties did so because they were sick of what the Social Democrats did in office, and voted for “change” in the hope perhaps that things would get better. I know plenty of people that voted for the government parties with this sentiment in mind, and now they are wondering why they voted for them. I have also met people in France who now dislike Sarkozy after having voted for him. This is not a Swedish phenomenon. It happens everywhere. Why this happens ought to be the subject of investigation.
Judging from the regular content of the The Local, I don’t believe for a second that the aim of Savage’s blog post was to raise the level of public awareness and debate about Swedish society. The Local is not a serious source of news, but rather another broadcaster of superficial stories with an eye for sex.
April 11th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Thats pretty good Lisa.
April 11th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
And as for you HairySwede, I think you are Reinfeldt in disguise. A man who does listen to the people.
April 11th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
And as for you HairySwede, I think you are Reinfeldt in disguise. Sorry, A man who does not listen to the people.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:48 am
You caught me Ray. Fredrik here… just trying to spread the conservative love in Sweden through the English speaking crowd on the local.
Nothing gets by you Ray.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
“The King is Naked”. It’s all just illusion. Don’t take life so seriously; it’s not permanent! . . . and neither is the present government. Patience, patience. We all must just sit back, eat our tårt and drink our kaffe, wait for the sun to shine and all will be forgotten by Midsommar (maybe by the year 2010)! Remember the Volksheim Principle. Even Spock would throw up if he beamed down to this country, but then he would beam right back up! MAV
April 14th, 2008 at 10:57 am
It is best to regard what Polly Twaddle has to say with a large pinch of salt. As a Guardian journalist, reality has little to do with what she writes in the newspaper. This article only gives her more publicity that she does not deserve!
April 15th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
I think the point of Polly’s article was that Reinfeldt won the election by partially rebranding his party and the alliance as a party for Sweden’s strong welfare state as well as a party for Sweden’s workers and low-paid. This was the Reinfeldt’s rhetoric before the election, despite what was in the manifesto.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Polly Toynbee is derided by both right and left in equal measure and seen as a wishy-washy, hand-wringing liberal.
However, her concern about the future of Sweden is justified. If the right wing reforms are as effective as those in the UK you can look forward to huge social inequalities, the growth of an unemployable & antisocial underclass, a rise in violent crime, the decline of state healthcare & education, worse public transport, less social housing and a ‘Me Me Me’ society.
Not my problem, but be careful what you wish for.
April 21st, 2008 at 4:22 am
Polly has many allies in the United States. They love the European social welfare systems, but they never seem to emigrate and take advntge of them. People die trying to reach the United States, but Polly won’t move to Sweden.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:39 am
The people that die trying to reach the US are not Europeans though, are they? They’re mostly from Mexico or other countries where having a good life is a joke at best.
Polly does not need to move to Sweden.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
By the way, people die to reach Europe. Read up a little on current events.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:43 pm
I’m sure many of the US citizens who are denied free healthcare and don’t have health insurance would love to emigrate, but they wouldn’t be eligible to enter the EU.
April 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
SAP has been destroying Sweden for more then 60 years! Thats the fact!
May 9th, 2008 at 10:52 am
The immigration problems in Sweden are only going to get worse. A country can only support so many people before serious problems arise.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:38 am
I too thought that Toynbee’s article was embarrassingly incorrect amazingly often. I can add another instance. “Failing to eject Persson despite disastrous polling predictions,” she wrote, “they [the Social Democrats] sleep-walked over the precipice with their eyes wide open. Even Moderate party ministers admit there was no national swing to the right – only a desire to evict an unpopular leader.” In fact, psephologists from Gothenburg University have idenitifed a large swing to the right, and little evidence that Persson’s unpopularity was behind his party’s defeat.
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
I am amazed about the comment, firstly any of the politicians in any country are all full of b*ll Shit and secondly Mona Sahlin being NEW leader?
Mona Sahlin has been in it with her long mits (fingers/hands) for some 20 year + and have had countless scandals swishing around her, so yes, fabulous leader. If any normal ‘Svensson’ had been up to what she has then we would be locked up a long time ago.
I am all up for scrapping all politicians, they are worse than prostitutes, they sell themselves to highest paying consumer goods company who wishes to get their claws into every man on Earth. Next is bar coding humans to have them ‘comply’ to the Elite’s egotistical needs.
Well back to Sahlin, new she is not and out of a leadership with her is nothing ‘new’ going to come either and it should not come as a surprise to any of you good people out there. Sweden is becoming a mini ‘amerika’ fat and lazy people who have become num by not being heard so instead gone dum.
Is it a surprise when those times the people have said NO, the convertion of driving on left to right, implementing the TV, and becoming members of EU, say NO and they change it anyway to what they like. ‘Sosse’ (social democrats). Absolute power corrupt if not careful and I see no politician willing to be uncomfortable, id they do then they become the next Palme, 6 feet under.
Has anyone wondered why after nearly 20 years of investigations they are nowhere closer to solving the ‘mystery’, when in fact all the answers lay in some vault in our own Riksdag. Someone at the top knows and of course they are not going to let anyone know why they got rid of him.
I tell you this though, don’t think we are stupid, you may be watching us but we are watching you too. ‘Big brother’ is no longer big brother, he is ‘Big Stinker’. If you can’t see them you can smell them since they are so full of shit.
I have lived out of the country for some time and I am appalled by the state of the country and how numb (dumb) people have become. It is scary, like dozy stupid cattle. This is no phenomena of just Sweden, the whole of this world is now soon to be run by the ultimate Elite, the Americans and some other world leaders. Watch this space, if you ever watched the ‘Matrix’ then the time is now because we are moving forever closer to being like the people in that film and it is more scary than any science fiction film.
Are you one of those giving your power away? Do you know how to set your intent not to be mind controlled? well you best start very soon otherwise you will be a part of project bar code like the test with our pets have shown to be ‘a great success’. To whom one may ask? Do you ever ask yourself these questions? as I said then you best start now before it is way way to late.
Mona Sahlin, ‘NEW’ leader? please do us a favor and don’t call her a leader, she cant’ even look after her own life, it would be like ‘the blind leading the blind’.
Well dear friends, wake up and smell the coffee, it is time to wake up now and actually do something. If you read this you have made a start so bless your little blue and yellow stripy socks :)
Lol, Monica
June 14th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
The whole point surely is that Polly Toynbee should stick to the facts if she is making an argument out of them.
Also if you vote for someone for a negative reason you can’t really complain if they get in power.
May 3rd, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Shame on you Polly, Sweden’s a paradise! ;)