(edit title) Inappropriate behaviour in the office. Employees horsing around Options

[byke]

Creative people can be more spontaneous, as it can be in their nature.
Whereas someone hard coding what seems like a real pig of a job, could have simply latched on as a form of release from a job that may be less than satisfying.

If the worst comes to the worst, give them both set projects with realistical time frames they need to adhere to ... And if the worst comes to the worst, then rent them space together in a seperate location.

[byke]

If these 2 people are the only ones acting like they do, could this be part of a larger problem regarding team building?/management?

[skogsbo]

You have had the advice here that you need a strong office manager, and essentially you should distance yourself from handling employee relations. And apparently not taken that advice.

I think that is probably a great solution, a strong middleman or woman who knows the business, so the wool can't be pulled over their eyes, but is loyal to the company boss and not the staff.

It might cost you more than your new car per year, but get the right person and it could well transform your company. Although it is clearly doing OK, it might shine with some great management.

[Yorkshireman]

I have to agree with Johno ... didn't check for Your other threads earlier, but now I see You also let at least one of Your employees blackmail You into a 10.000 kr/m pay rise. WTF! ... Whatever is in short supply in Sweden, is easy to find in other countries... Once Your employee got that kind of raise out of You by threatening to quit ... You lose all respect in the workplace. Sorry!. Most companies that I worked for in the past, we had a standing rule ... if they threaten to quit, let them go... they obviously didnt want to work for Us.

Sounds to Me that if You are certain You cannot remove those 2 guys, not prepared to warn them formally ... basically scared! ... Then, why not make them work from home. You can easily set them tasks, measure their progress ... and generally keep them away from the office.

Me, I would look for other people now, and then remove those 2.

This is not about creativity, it is about 2 guys making life terrible in the workplace by acting like children. You need to employ Adults that are skilled professionals. Start with a REAL Manager. ;-) Since to Me it appears You want to be their friend and not their Manager/Employer.

[dave.smith]

The situation was and is unfortunately quite complex. Because of custom technologies, internal politics and changing technologies, it is definitely not just a case of dump and swap programmers.

It's a double edged sword: on the one hand, the technologies we have used have leapfrogged us ahead of the curve.

On the other hand, getting in new programmers is difficult because the technologies are more advanced than standard cookie cutter java/.net

[Yorkshireman]

Most skilled programmers, regardless of programming language, have an inbuilt thirst to be extremely good and creative, and learn cutting edge ;-) I know, I have been there way back in the days when IBM 1st released the PS1 and Sinclair launched the ZX80, 81 and Spectrum and more... :-D Whatever happened to the C5 electric car? ... Wow!, in this green age that would be a winner now!

In the immediate short term it may not be possible, but You need to be planning ahead, there are many programmers out there that would be able to learn quickly, though You will of-course have a middle moment where they are not up to speed. Especially if the stuff is undocumented !!! Formalise to a degree, make sure that Your business can survive even if they leave!

Face it ... They are already acting as spoiled brats that know they have You in a corner ... expect further salary demands, more childish behaviour and disruption in the office. Sounds like You are not prepared to do anything about it, so Live with it, and the potential consequences.

And remember ...the more they see You are not around, spending the profits on expensive toys, the more they will start to wonder if they could take the knowledge with them and start their own business!, and do the same.

It is not an enviable position You are in, the solutionmay be to protect Your business by starting taking in trainees, educating them, and if so cutting edge, why not forge a relationship with one of the Universities ... You need to create a pool of resources so that You are not dependant upon a few. It sounds like You do generate enough income to take that cost.

;-)

[skogsbo]

it's not a doubled sword at all, you are their boss, they are employed to do a job and are no longer at school. It's time for you to act like a boss and time for them to act like responsible adults or employees. Both sides need to do some learning and maturing.

[Ambre]

Ambre - I don't want to sack them. I need them, programmers are in short supply no matter what the naysayers think.

I didnt say that you have to sack them, I just told you how the law works here in case their behaviour doesnt change after chat and 1st warning and therefore you would need / want to sack them

You do not seem to be very qualified to be a manager if you need to ask total strangers on a forum for advice! You seem quite young and immature and I do not think that this job is for you so eventually, it will be your job or theirs because I do assume that you also have some kind of boss who will not be very happy about the fact that you cant deal with 2 stupid, immature idiots!

I am pretty sure that if you looked hard enough, you would find replacement for those 2 morons...replace them or sort them out...Think about the fact that the people under you will also lose all respect for you if you do not deal with this situation, they might already think quite low about you...you might end up losing your good staff because they will be fed up of being bullied by idiots or because they will have enough of having to work in those conditions with a boss that is a door mat!!!!

Law is quite tough here and protects workers a lot, sometimes even the shitty ones, unions have a lot of power, if someone gets bullied and you do nothing about it, it could turn nasty...

I do agree that staff shouldnt go to the loo with their ipad, it is unacceptable behaviour as well ...

Toughen up man and lead by example!!!!!

[Gamla Hälsingebock]

Take them for another drive in your new car...and...make them walk back!

[mångk]

Then last week one of our older employees took his ipad into the toilet, and the two young ones followed him and took a video on one of their phones... Of the ipad employee do ... (show full quote)

Then last week one of our older employees took his ipad into the toilet, and the two young ones followed him and took a video on one of their phones... Of the ipad employee doing something dodgy. It was a complete uproar and I am beginning to lose my grip on sanity. ... (hide full quote)

I would suggest that you need to take immediate formal action regarding this.

You are not talking about staff 'goofing around' anymore.

[Yorkshireman]

...and disinfect the iPad

(btw ... Dave, You are coming closer and closer to a law-suit, sooner or later one of Your employees will act to take legal action. Filming in the toilets!)

You need to stop them, or put in place and give the authority to someone that can.

[mångk]

Dave, take contact with the employees union.

Don't mention any names. Simply state that you have 2 employees that have filmed another using the toilet facilities and then showed it around the office. Ask them what other legitimate alternative to instant dismissal can the union recommend in this instance.

If they ask about previous behaviour do no more than simply mention that their conduct has not been up to the required standard.

Listen to what they suggest (if anything at all) and if what they suggest is reasonable.

If your customers find out about what your staff are doing, what do you think will happen?

[skogsbo]

, it will be your job or theirs because I do assume that you also have some kind of boss who will not be very happy about the fact that you cant deal with 2 stupid, immature idiots!

that's the thing Dave is the BOSS. He really needs a good project manager between him and them, and / or get some training in management and leadership.

He probably has great IT skills and is clearly getting the work in, but his people skills could do with a bit of work!

[mångk]

that's the thing Dave is the BOSS.

He is not the boss, he is the guy that owns the business and pays his employees regardless of what they do or say.

That is the problem.

Sorry Dave!

[byke]

I wonder if any of Daves employees read this forum ...