(edit title) Newly qualified nurses Wanting full pay from day 1 Options

[BritVik]

What do Forumites feel about newly qualified nurses wanting to be paid the full rate if not more, before starting out on their careers?
My feeling is that they have yet to prove themselves as qualified, and should only start at a normal entrance salary.
They are trying to run before they can walk as I see it.

[BritVik]

Presumably, since no-one has said anything, you all agree that newly-qualified nurses should get full pay. Even if they have not, as yet, proven themselves other than academically to be nurses.
I can fully understand older nurses who have been doing the fine job for a long time reacting to these whipper-snappers' claims for higher pay. But until they have got a year or three under their belt, they are still learning, a process that can only come with actual contact with patients on the wards. On that basis, they are not eligible for higher pay logically. There may be issues with later advancement, but that only can come with experience. Entry levels should be just that until they have proven that they are genuine nurses.

But there seems to be no-one out there that agrees with me. Ah well, I hope you don't end up under the care of one of these beginners.
"Nurse - I said take of his spectacles."

[cbgbg]

I think these nurses that are protesting without work experience should change their careers as they couldnt care less about their chosen profession and the people that they will in the future take care of. Education and qualifications are good but they should not expect full salary until they have complete work experience and can work unhindred. I personally think that they are overpaid. Every time i go to a hospital or doctors surgery all i see is that they are talking to each other or running around with files. Its not often that they are with patients on the ward (i have experienced this many times)
If they dont like the situation then im sure that there are plenty of other people from abroad whom would love to work

[Puffin]

It's such an unattractive career so many have left as they see no point becoming qualified in order to take a pay cut

Introduction salaries are OK in theory - but it tends to assume that there will be a level of supervision which is never the case - you could ask if they are doing the same job on the same terms without extra help why not equal pay?

Many of the problems can be traced back to the public management reforms of the early 1990s when individual pay was introduced and the old pay scales were abolished so that it was important to negotiate a good starting salary - so you have the problem that newly recruited staff often negotiate better staff than the older ones - exactly the same in teaching as well

There are some areas where I would much rather have younger staff as they are much more capable - orthorpaedics for example

[BritVik]

. . . .. There are some areas where I would much rather have younger staff as they are much more capable - orthorpaedics for example

Younger staff - yes sure. But not experienced in much. Qualifications on paper are one thing, putting them into practice is a very different kettle of fish. I doubt that there is a single academic who has achieved qualifications on paper but has no practical experience, that can sit down and do what is required of them immediately.
At my company back in the UK we had a golden boy in the DO, with a string of qualifications. He was given the task of designing the components to fit an engine into a vehicle - one that no-one else had been able to do. He managed it perfectly. All the components were produced to his drawings, the engine assembled, and the fitting process commenced, since he assured everyone it would go in. It did - until the problem that had stopped all previous attempts turned up. He had forgotten one of the basis points of engineering. Having cost the company several thousands, the end result was a complete failure. Basically if you stand an X on one of its sides so that it becomes a + then it will not necessarily fit into a given space. His big mistake. Needless to say he left us very soon afterwards, despite all the letters after his name.
Same with nurses, teachers, engineers or any profession, there are pitfalls all along the line that only experience can help overcome. Until you have that experience you are still a novice despite your letters. You cannot get a profession out of a text book alone.

[Puffin]

The worst treatment I got when i was in hospital for a couple of weeks was from the "experienced" staff - 30 years in the job had failed to get them to understand
- most patients prefer them to close the door when on the toilet
- most patients prefer not to wait 20-30 minutes for assistance in the toilet
- patients might like to be offered a shower or at least a wash during a 2 week stay

[BritVik]

So far my only contact with hospitals here in Sweden was when I had a ruptured appendix back in '82. As I remember it. all went well, except for the fact that I was never able to properly differentiate between cleaners and medical staff, since due to 'equality' as it was then, there was no defining uniform to assist, as it is/was in the UK where at one time at least you knew who was the staff nurse and who were the trainees from the marks on their caps. You also knew which year they were in - handy when they were dishing out jabs.
But having a daughter who is a nurse, I know too well how they tend to think, so I seldom discuss such matters in the home.
But even you, Puffin, must agree that on achieving academical qualifications you are only on the first rung of the ladder. You can never get experience out of a book. That requires hands on.

[byke]

Do nurses have too much responsibility nowadays?
With some of the doctors work offset to nurses instead to help give doctors better working and financial enviroments?

[Gamla Hälsingebock]

"Nurse - I said take of his spectacles."

Ouch!

[BritVik]

Falsetto

[Puffin]

Do nurses have too much responsibility nowadays?. With some of the doctors work offset to nurses instead to help give doctors better working and financial enviroments?

It depends a lot on what area they are working in - some areas are seriously underprofessionalised - others have chronic doctor shortages where ca. 50% of doctor posts are vacant

A friend from SFI went on to study gymnasiet qualified as a nurse in 2005
- she wanted to be an operating theatre nurse but the health authority offered only 17,500 - a paltry sum lower than I was being paid as a PhD student and lower than entry level police/teachers etc - she calculated that it would be less than 15,000 after student loan repayments
- she was offered a job in a treatment home for drug addicts at 23,000kr - however this meant taking full medical responsibility for their treatment/medications as there was only a part time doctor + a difficult clientele etc - not a responsibility that I would want frankly - she did it for a while but now works for the kommun

[Yorkshireman]

What do Forumites feel about newly qualified nurses wanting to be paid the full rate if not more, before starting out on their careers?My feeling is that they have yet to prov ... (show full quote)

What do Forumites feel about newly qualified nurses wanting to be paid the full rate if not more, before starting out on their careers?
My feeling is that they have yet to prove themselves as qualified, and should only start at a normal entrance salary.
They are trying to run before they can walk as I see it. ... (hide full quote)

Actually this is not what the current protests are about!

What they are demanding is that the starting salary for new qualified nurses be raised from 21.500 to 24.000 where the current average is 26.000 due to specialist nurses being paid substantially more direct after qualifying.

It has nothing to do with being paid the same as experienced nurses direct at start.
It IS about raising the normal entrance salary.

Additionally, they argue that whilst across the country pay for nurses is supposed to be set individually rather than collectively, everywhere has a non-negotiable starting salary at 21.500, they want to be able to negotiate. Just like any other post-education job.

[Gamla Hälsingebock]

I have worked in the healthcare industry for years, but not in Sweden(USA), I have also worked in Industry. One contract I am familiar with was a lower "hire" rate that went to accepted scale after passing a probationary period.

I am thinking that does not fit too well here but it would address the OP"s original post.

I think?

[Puffin]

What they are demanding is that the starting salary for new qualified nurses be raised from 21.500 to 24.000 where the current average is 26.000 due to specialist nurses being ... (show full quote)

What they are demanding is that the starting salary for new qualified nurses be raised from 21.500 to 24.000 where the current average is 26.000 due to specialist nurses being paid substantially more direct after qualifying. ... (hide full quote)

Personally I don't think that 24K is unreasonable at all for a graduate salary - especially given that several thousand of this will disappear as student loan repayments each month directly after qualifying - giving an effective salary of 20-22K

This is around the going rate for newly qualified teachers etc

Th other problem is that since the abolition of pay-scales that the pay is so very flat - you start at 21.5 yet the average for the profession as a whole is 26.