(edit title) Swedish property market Am I missing something? Options

[sambodiplanc]

Hi all

I'm wondering if I'm missing anything about the Swedish property market. As far as I can see from researching here and elsewhere and talking to my partner's family, if you can't afford to buy then when it comes to renting you're a bit knackered because:

1. If you join the kommun's housing bureau and get in the queue, you're looking at several years worth of points before you stand a chance. And not just in Stockholm and Göteborg either...but even in smaller towns, anything remotely desirable seems to have 100+ applicants with tons of points, or else it's so far out in the sticks that commuting to anywhere would be impractical?

2. If you look for a first hand elsewhere, with private estate agents, they tend to have poor, rarely updated websites with a non-existant or very small selection of available property, and with so many terms and conditions and stipulations from the landlords that it basically amounts to "unless you're loaded and have an established track record in Sweden, don't bother, because we can afford to be VERY picky, and we will be..."

3. If you check out blocket or bostaddirekt for a 2nd hand, the vast majority are for short term lets only, won't tolerate pets, charge exorbitant rent, and don't provide you with any of the protection and security as a tenant that you would get from a first hand and that you preferably look for when trying to establish a life somewhere.

Is that a fair summary of the rental market? Perhaps a little negative, because I'm sure there are lucky exceptions where people score a first hand in a decent area against the odds, but in general am I right in my assessment? I mean, is there anything really obvious I'm missing? Some kind of password or secret trick that opens up this world of affordable, attainable rental properties?

Sometimes when you look at Sweden from the outside you think...how is it working? And I don't mean that in a nasty way, as an attack on the place...I just mean, you wonder how people are casually bobbing around between their offices and apartments, wearing top designer labels, eating out, being all Western and comfortable when...if you actually try to move there, everything seems impossibly difficult. It's like moving to Sweden is choosing to play the game of life on the EXPERT difficulty setting.

Is it mainly through contacts that Swedes manage to get their rented property, or do they just get in the queue from age 18? Or just move frequently between 2nd hands? I suppose the picture just isn't quite adding up to me, somehow...

[Norrlands Turk]

I don't live in Sweden and haven't been to Stockholm for more than a few days, so I don't know how it goes in a larger city. But I have been to smaller cities quite a few times and getting an apartment (sorry, a flat) in small and mid-size cities seems pretty easy to me.

It is pretty transparent too. I mean you can go to a Kommun's website, find the link to the website of whatever Kommun supported company manages the apartment buildings in that specific Kommun, and see what will be available and when.

Try to do that in the U.S.

[astrocase]

Hi allI'm wondering if I'm missing anything about the Swedish property market. As far as I can see from researching here and elsewhere and talking to my partner's ... (show full quote)

Hi all

I'm wondering if I'm missing anything about the Swedish property market. As far as I can see from researching here and elsewhere and talking to my partner's family, if you can't afford to buy then when it comes to renting you're a bit knackered because:

1. If you join the kommun's housing bureau and get in the queue, you're looking at several years worth of points before you stand a chance. And not just in Stockholm and Göteborg either...but even in smaller towns, anything remotely desirable seems to have 100+ applicants with tons of points, or else it's so far out in the sticks that commuting to anywhere would be impractical?

2. If you look for a first hand elsewhere, with private estate agents, they tend to have poor, rarely updated websites with a non-existant or very small selection of available property, and with so many terms and conditions and stipulations from the landlords that it basically amounts to "unless you're loaded and have an established track record in Sweden, don't bother, because we can afford to be VERY picky, and we will be..."

3. If you check out blocket or bostaddirekt for a 2nd hand, the vast majority are for short term lets only, won't tolerate pets, charge exorbitant rent, and don't provide you with any of the protection and security as a tenant that you would get from a first hand and that you preferably look for when trying to establish a life somewhere.

Is that a fair summary of the rental market? Perhaps a little negative, because I'm sure there are lucky exceptions where people score a first hand in a decent area against the odds, but in general am I right in my assessment? I mean, is there anything really obvious I'm missing? Some kind of password or secret trick that opens up this world of affordable, attainable rental properties?

Sometimes when you look at Sweden from the outside you think...how is it working? And I don't mean that in a nasty way, as an attack on the place...I just mean, you wonder how people are casually bobbing around between their offices and apartments, wearing top designer labels, eating out, being all Western and comfortable when...if you actually try to move there, everything seems impossibly difficult. It's like moving to Sweden is choosing to play the game of life on the EXPERT difficulty setting.

Is it mainly through contacts that Swedes manage to get their rented property, or do they just get in the queue from age 18? Or just move frequently between 2nd hands? I suppose the picture just isn't quite adding up to me, somehow... ... (hide full quote)

I'm Swedish but left the country in the 1990's to study in the USA. Since that time my grandparents have passed away, my parents friend's have retired and moved out of the cities, and the rest of my immediate family lives in the USA. This leaves me with zero contacts unlike before where I lived in a 1:a on Kungsholmen that my Uncle had.

The problem is simple. You either have the contacts or you have been in the rental line for many years. I never registered when I was 18 because I didn't need to back then and I never thought I'd move back after leaving. Now that I want to re-establish myself in Stockholm it has proved to be a giant disappointment.

Your options are as follows (as far as Stockholm is concerned):

1. http://www.bostad.stockholm.se/ and any of the private ones such as Einar Mattsson, Stena Fastigheter, etc but their minimum time in the queue is 2-8 years for something in the most distant suburbs. I have been in the queue for a year and checking it regularly and I am constantly competing with people who have been in the queue since the early to mid 1990's. I have no chance. To get something inside the city your wait time will be between 10 and 22 years for the most part depending on what part of the city you want to live.

There are a few ways to get ahead. You can open a bank account with Akelius for example to get ahead a bit but I have had zero luck with that. They have Bostadssnabben which is for flats that they need to rent immediately and are given on a first come first serve basis but all the ones I've seen have either been for 65+ or for large and expensive apartments with high income requirements. I don't need an 8 bedroom flat.

2. Second hand. The only two reliable ways to do this, as you have discovered already, are Blocket and Bostaddirekt. I got a 3 month contract through Bostadsdirekt way out in the suburbs but the guy broke the contract and stole my deposit. I wasn't impressed. They did black list him but that's besides the point. Legally people are not supposed to rent their places for more than what the fair market price is. So for a 2:a in town you should expect to pay about 4,500 crowns. However you'll notice that everyone is charging 2x or more. Nobody reports them and places like Bostadsdirekt continue to allow them to post their announcements which just keeps the prices at those rates. I have yet to find a place through Blocket but I have friends who have. My experience has been that there are a ton of scam artists on that site and I have spent a disproportional amount of time on there with no positive results. There is a 3rd method that I have had limited success with and that is to put ads in the local papers. It only costs 50 crowns and I've secured an apartment that way but it was very short term. The problem however, for me, seems to be that people who are renting out their places second hand are either charging off the chart prices or they have significant financial problems of their own and are trying to subsidize their income. Both of these don't lead to a very stable living situation for me.

3. You could buy. However Stockholm is the 12th most expensive housing market in the world and prices are falling and sure to fall much further unless the EU solves all their problems flawlessly.

I've slipped through the cracks myself and it's frustrating. I'm currently in America with my family and trying to figure out what my next move is. I have a great education and job experience yet I can't re-establish myself in Sweden since housing is impossible to get without waiting for years.

It's probably worth noting that some of my overseas friends who have moved to Sweden through their work are getting their flats paid for by their employers. They're stupid though and in some cases are paying $5000 USD a month for an apartment that should cost 5000 SEK. They get away with it and it's keeping prices very high.

[johnjohn]

Yes it is a difficult market but not as bad as you described. First hand contracts are hard to find in the most desirable locations and queues are long. Second hand contracts are often for one year due to restrictions however they do afford you many rights and are often by law very close in price to first hand contracts. An apartment can not be rented out for more then the going standard. Of course pets present a problem.

[sambodiplanc]

getting an apartment (sorry, a flat) in small and mid-size cities seems pretty easy to me.

It is pretty transparent too. I mean you can go to a Kommun's website, find the link to the website of whatever Kommun supported company manages the apartment buildings in that specific Kommun, and see what will be available and when.

Hmm...all I can say is that "pretty easy" hasn't been my experience in smaller and mid-size places so far. If you mean that the process is clear and simple in theory, then yeah, it is "easy" in that sense. But...if you mean that it's easy in the sense that it produces positive results in a short time frame, then I'd have to disagree. We've registered with the kommun property sites in Karlskrona, Helsingborg and Lund, for example, and found that we tend to place around 150th in the queue for very modest apartments.

astrocase - thanks for such a detailed and helpful reply. It's really good to know that I'm not imagining how difficult it is or missing any glaringly obvious trick. I mean, it's not good..that it's so problematic, and I hope you can find a solution in your situation, but it's nice to know my assessment of it isn't way off the mark. I like to know what my options are and what they...aren't. Incidentally, if you don't mind me asking, what are your reasons for trying to re-establish in Sweden despite the rest of the family being in the States? And do you reckon you're going to persist despite these housing issues?

[Andersonville]

Unfortunately, it seems pretty accurate to me. Swedish housing is an awful mess. I hope something opens up for you soon. Best of luck to you my friend.

[Ashby]

I don't fully understand the housing system yet so can't add much to what has already been said.
From places Ive lived before in other countries, you can browse places online and pretty much find something in a day.
Maybe it will become easier here over time, especially as the population is growing then something needs to happen.

Some of my work collegues here tend to rent a place through the company (company apartments mostly), as they have good relationships with the property owners. The rent comes direct from their salary making the whole thing very easy actually. Then when it comes time to leave, they rotate and switch around. It seems there is some clause stating they can only rent for so many months (not sure why? Maybe it gives them more legal rights if they are living there longer?)

It is very hard I agree. Seems a weird system that makes it easier to buy than rent something. This also makes it very hard for newcomers to settle unless you can afford to buy outright of course.

[Yorkshireman]

It is very hard I agree. Seems a weird system that makes it easier to buy than rent something. This also makes it very hard for newcomers to settle unless you can afford to buy outright of course.

It isn't the system that makes this difference, it is the availability of empty properties.

[astrocase]

Why come back? Complicated question and difficult to answer. Ideally I wish I could take Sweden and put it where California is. Something like that. Since I can't do that I've spent my life trying to find a balance between the two and that's not so easy. Both countries are amazing but right now I feel like Sweden, and Stockholm specifically, can increase my standard of living. Yes, salaries are for the most part lower, but benefits are much higher. Then of course there's the culture. First I have to resolve this housing problem though.

To add to why there is a housing problem in places like Stockholm it is in no small part due to the fact that they have taken former rental properties and converted them into Bostadsrätt. By doing so, people made a large sum of money very quickly but at the expense of far fewer rental properties. I have friends who were asked to pay a couple hundred thousand crowns to convert to a Bostadsrätt only to be a few million crowns wealthier on paper almost immediately. Great deal for them. Add to that all too many people who don't vacate their properties when they don't live there anymore, but rent them out instead, and it's added up to something like a 40,000 unit deficiency. They can't built rental properties fast enough. It's a country wide problem. Everyone is moving into the cities.

The government isn't naive to what's happening. For example they have put broadband internet up in Norrland to try to motivate people to stay up there. They're building a lot of properties. However where I think there is a serious lack of understanding is for people like me. It is easier for someone to immigrate from Iraq to Sweden as a refuge and get housing than it is for me, as a Swede, to move back to Sweden. The answer I get is "Well you should have put yourself in the queue 20 years ago. Sorry, there's nothing we can do." It's definitely a huge obstacle to overcome considering that in the USA it has never taken me longer than 2 days to get a place to rent and that was only because I was being picky. You can rent a place in less than an hour if you have good credit and a job here.

[JulieLou40]

The government isn't naive to what's happening. For example they have put broadband internet up in Norrland to try to motivate people to stay up there.

Ah now, that's not the only reason people live here..it's a beautiful area to live in

[gplusa]

To be fair, anyone from Stockholm refers to any part of Sweden north of Arlanda as being Norrland.

[JulieLou40]

Ha ha ha

[AmericaninStockholm]

I don't live in Sweden and haven't been to Stockholm for more than a few days, so I don't know how it goes in a larger city. But I have been to smaller cities quit ... (show full quote)

I don't live in Sweden and haven't been to Stockholm for more than a few days, so I don't know how it goes in a larger city. But I have been to smaller cities quite a few times and getting an apartment (sorry, a flat) in small and mid-size cities seems pretty easy to me.

It is pretty transparent too. I mean you can go to a Kommun's website, find the link to the website of whatever Kommun supported company manages the apartment buildings in that specific Kommun, and see what will be available and when.

Try to do that in the U.S. ... (hide full quote)

So what your saying is, you don't know anything, but it's pretty easy right? I can't express how dumb of a comment that is.

[Norrlands Turk]

My comment was only a few sentences long, so comprehending it can't be too difficult. Read it again please, and note that I wasn't talking about Stockholm.

[icedearth]

So guys , overall, will you advise the individual to buy or stay on rent? Is is feasible to rent a house? or a buy a house? rent an apartment or buy an apartment? thanks...