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Cavalry arrives for beleaguered homeschool family

Top human rights expert to help in return of child

kmbr
post 4.May.2010, 07:09 PM
Post #31
Joined: 15.Apr.2009

The communism word is for argueing with US people so as to get them on your side, not Europeans who see right through that one.

Ah, I think you meant "not Europeans who wouldn't know communism if it bit them in the arse"... laugh.gif

You guys CAN'T get enough government in your lives. People are on here clamoring for mandatory dog training classes and dog laws. You guys want to be serfs. It's something that mutated in the DNA when all the productive left.
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mjennin2
post 4.May.2010, 07:55 PM
Post #32
Joined: 8.Mar.2010

Wow, Nemisis. You have said some significantly far-fetching things in the time I have belonged to TL, and I've taken it with a grain of salt and discounted it for what it's worth as I can typically see through much of the vile you often times spit out here as being a one-party view, but you reallllly struck a raw chord with me on this one.

@007 did a pretty good job of addressing your negative viewpoint of homeschooling (ie religious extremism, wacko offspring etc.) with the fact that you grew up in a region perhaps more subjected to this kind of behavior (although, for someone who professes to be so knowledgeable in so many threads, I am baffled as to why you could possibly be so narrow-minded as to think, as @007 said, that your personal experience with homeschooling would be adequate evidence to support your argument), but with that said, I think you have your head shoved WAY too far up your nether regions to be able to see the light of day on this topic.

Whilst I was happy to go to public school...and later a private college...I had SEVERAL friends who were homeschooled, all perfectly well adjusted, functioning members of society.

I am still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor at what I have learned on this thread, that there are countries - Sweden of ALL places - who want to ban homeschooling...not to mention overly liberal countries, at that! The last time I checked, the State doesn't own our children. The idea that we would be forced to enter our children into a government-run institution without the option of taking our offspring's education into our own hands (on the condition that they pass annual exams exemplifying their mastery of each year's course work, as Puffin indicated, of course) is absolutely beyond me. There are SO many instances that homeschooling is appropriate:

1. A child who has learning disorders - ADD, ADHD, Autism, or other conditions in which a classroom full of children is not conducive to learning.

2. A child who has serious psychological problems and has been deemed unsafe to be around other children - take for instance children who have been expelled for incessant bullying, and have proven themselves to put others in danger when around them. I know this to be an alternative to expulsion here, that a child is removed from school and is assigned to one year of homeschooling before being allowed to return, instead of being kicked out entirely.

3. Teen mothers who must care (or desire to care) for a new infant at home but who also want to pass high school so that they can continue with their education and be productive members of society and not casualties of the welfare system you all pay so dearly for already

4. Children who live in bad areas (example: Rosengård) and whose parents want to offer a higher quality / safer education or educational environment. Also children whose parents want to teach them in less manufactured environments. Homeschool not only teaches classroom fundamentals, but offers a vast assortment of hands-on real-world learning opportunities that classroom children rarely get.

5. Children who are incessantly bullied - take that poor young girl who was raped and austracized by her community up north, for example. Or out here in California, a girl got her entire high school's prom cancelled because the school refused to allow her to bring her lesbian girlfriend as a date, and she sued. SO the school just cancelled the prom, and now her whole school hates her, and she has one year left. What if children who are austracized by their school peers would rather do their studies at home, and get socialization opportunities from sports, community activities, art classes (or other after-school / weekend activities?) What about Phoebe Prince, NEMISIS - a gal of your own country - who was bullied so viciously that she killed herself? Granted, homeschooling WAS an option for her (a route she did not take), but suffice it to say that children are vicious and some kids learn that removing themselves from that environment so that they can move on with their lives during the brief period of elementary / high school education is best for them.

6. Military brats, actors/actresses, etc who are forced to move often, and it is simply easier for them to continue their studies in a non-distruptive, more stable environment that homeschooling provides, than to be shoved from one school to another...something that, from what I've learned from my military brat friends, was actually more damaging than good for their social skills, as all they learned as children was to disassociated from other kids because they knew they would be torn away from them eventually.

How inexplicably naïve that you would think Sweden (of ALL places) to be a country who has parents who wish *only* to offer their children a home education in an effort to religiously brainwash them. Further, how incredibly hypocrticial to think that a parent should be forced to subject their children to learning about evolution in a state school if it is something they don't believe in? That's just the same, Nemisis, as you being forced to send your child to go to a school where creationism is taught.

Believe it or not, Nemisis, our ancestors were technically homeschooled. There was actually, once upon a time, an era where parents got to live with their children instead of carting them to and from school/daycare/etc, and got to teach their children everything they know. And offer tutors to fill in the gaps.

Homeschooling usually requires the teacher to be licensed, and also usually requires the child to pass exams indicating a pass/fail record so that they child can later go on to college or to re-enter the State-run school system. While I think it is best for society that as many children attend regular public education as possible, it is a ridiculous notion to consider banning the option of homeschooling all together.

Bear in mind, that when employers seek employees, they don't ONLY look at education. They look at work experience, extra curriculars, and other evidence of a well-rounded development. Homeschooling offers much more room for real-world experiences that classrooms don't, and many parents seek this form of education instead of State-run institutions for that very reason.

If you are going to be as liberal as you clearly are, Nemisis, this will require you to have an equally open mind. Liberals can be so hypocritical sometimes.
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Snoopy!
post 4.May.2010, 09:06 PM
Post #33
Location: Skåne
Joined: 14.Aug.2006

Nimwit I mean Nemesis dry.gif you obviously haven't heard of the School of the Air
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Mzungu
post 4.May.2010, 09:30 PM
Post #34
Location: South Africa
Joined: 29.Aug.2004

Plowbridge said it all concerning Nimwit...

Attached Image

*that reminds me* Attached Image
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Amadeus8888
post 10.Aug.2010, 03:29 PM
Post #35
Joined: 10.Aug.2010

This case is now moving up to European court because it doesn't seem justice will be served at the local level. Normally I'm very suspicious about international courts but hopefully they can try to rectify this tragedy (as much as possible, surely a lot of damage has already been done with the child being away from his parents for over a year!)
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Tomitomi
post 10.Sep.2010, 08:53 PM
Post #36
Joined: 10.Jan.2006

This is a very interesting story and on the face of it I feel sorry for the parents and angry at the government for creating trouble out of nothing. But somehow it doesn't add up.
Why hasn't the kid tried to call his parents or go home on his own? Does he know where he is? Can he read about himself on the internet? He's not imprisoned, only living somewhere else, right? Or is a social service "care" order actually more like a restraining order on both the parents and the kid?
Whatever, the authority is not doing the public any service by refusing to talk due to "secrecy reasons". In this case, they really should release some kind of short statement to put the public's mind at rest. This method is only helping to generate rumour and suspicion.
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BillyB
post 10.Sep.2010, 09:08 PM
Post #37
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 31.Oct.2008

Not sure if anyone posted this already but apparently...

"the court noted that Dominic had some untreated cavities and had not been vaccinated. The court also said that because Dominic had not been in school he had been “socially isolated.” This, the court said, demonstrated that the parents were not aware of the impact their decision to homeschool would have on Dominic’s future development and opportunities. Social workers and the court have mentioned the psychiatric condition of Mr. and Mrs. Johansson. However, Mr. Johansson vehemently denies any such mental problems"

Not saying it was the right or wrong decission, but it wasn't just for fun that they did it
Obviously social workers were worried about the boys health and the mental state of parents.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Sweden/200912220.asp
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BillyB
post 10.Sep.2010, 09:15 PM
Post #38
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 31.Oct.2008

Also...

I think it must be hard call to make.

When i think about cases over the last few years where kids died from abuse and neglect there is always a massive outcry from the public angry that social services didnt act and missed signs early on...

But when they see early signs like parents not bothering with basic medical treatment people say dont worry, just leave them...

At what point do we want social services and courts to start taking an interest?...its just not that black and white so is not always perfect.
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SarahRF
post 13.Sep.2010, 07:48 AM
Post #39
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 23.Oct.2009

Just because the kid had a couple unfixed cavities doesn't mean his parents neglected his medical care. When was his last dental checkup? What was the condition of his teeth at that checkup? What are his teeth normally like? Are they the kind that never gets cavities, and thus having these cavities means he has actually been neglected? Or are they the kind (like mine) that easily get cavities regardless of how much care you put into them?

As to being socially isolated... that can and does happen to kids who go to public schools. Bullying, "mobbning", is a huge problem in Swedish schools. My own high school experience here in Sweden was one of not being included in anything, but not being picked on or bullied either. I was just there. It was a very lonely time for me, and I know of at least 3 others in my class who felt the same way. Then of course you have stories like little Bobby, who had been in a public school, suddenly didn't show up for about 3 months, no one came to check up on him from school as to why. And then they found his body, after his mom and mom's bf said he disappeared at an Ikea. Turns out he'd been used in all their sex games, gagged with a pillow case and made to vomit in it, chained to the wall and forced to sleep in his own urine... and this kid went to public school, but I bet he was more isolated than little Dominic was. These cases happen regardless of where a child goes to school.

Maybe this is just me, but this case with Dominic is the first bad case I've heard about homeschooling here in Sweden. I've heard soooo many stories though of kids in public schools who have gone through hell. So really, is homeschooling that much more detrimental to a kid's health? As long as you have a proper curriculum and work alongside a school for classes such as art or sports, what is the issue here?

As us expats know, Swedes can take a while to warm up to you and befriend you properly. I'm sure most of us felt very lonely at first because of this. I think this reservation that Swedes have is what makes homeschooling so hard to do here. If a kid is at home and studies there, and then goes out to play, meets some of the neighbourhood kids, are those kids going to just let him/her join in, or will they ignore him/her and do their own thing? In countries where people are very friendly like the US, Canada and South Africa, the homeschooled child wouldn't have a problem finding friends, because (at least in my experience in all three places) a kid is just another person to play with, the more the merrier. It's not the homeschooling then that makes a person feel socially isolated, it's society. And how do you change a society?

Until social services and the courts release all the information about this case, this debate will go on. But how can we be sure they are releasing everything, in an unbiased way? Would they risk putting that report out there, knowing that it would say they made a mistake? I find myself very cynical about this whole mess, and just hope that whatever happens has Dominic's and his family's best interest at heart.
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Tomitomi
post 26.Sep.2010, 09:35 PM
Post #40
Joined: 10.Jan.2006

Heard the family had their second appeal turned flat down by the court a few days back. Its pretty frightening stuff the more I read about it. Also this:

"Sweden has about 15,000 children in care out of a population of 8 million. Britain has 40,000 in care out of a population of 58 million. If Britain took children into care at the same rate as Sweden, there would be more than 100,000 children in care"

Of these its estimated 5000 "forced" foster care and 10000 "voluntary". But voluntary can be in the sense "if you don't agree by signing these papers you will not have any visitation rights to your child".

I don't know anyone who has lost their child by force to the social services, but when I think about it I know at least 3 people in Sweden who have grown up in foster care, and I don't know a single one in the UK...
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William Sachsen-Coburg-Go...
post 26.Sep.2010, 10:46 PM
Post #41
Joined: 16.Apr.2010

I wouldn't hold the UK system up as a shining example. A change in the law a few years back was supposed to protect children, that of saying the best place for a child was with the parents. The aim was to stop repeats of the bad old days when social services would whip a child away without a shred of evidence and to make social services work with parents and ensure parents got the help they needed to be good parents.

The results have been a disaster and have made it nigh on impossible for social services to remove a child. I been in court and witnessed cases where social workers have been reduced to tears, pleading to have a child taken into care, but the law won't allow it.
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jack sprat
post 26.Sep.2010, 11:43 PM
Post #42
Joined: 15.Sep.2006

QUOTE (Tomitomi @ 26.Sep.2010, 09:35 PM) *
Heard the family had their second appeal turned flat down by the court a few days back. Its pretty frightening stuff the more I read about it. Also this:"Sweden has abou ... (show full quote)


Basically it's all down to the socialist/commie system under which Swedish ppl should be most thankful for even being allowed to exist.
The State always knows what's best for you.
It's not all that many years since they were taking them away Nazi style for sterilization,.. and I have been unfortunate enough to witness some of the resultant heartbreak that caused.
More recently I have seen cases in my locality of kids being taken away for reasons neither family nor neighbours understand.
Needless to say most of the Swedes in my local area despise the Swedish style of govt. and all it stands for.
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Puffin
post 27.Sep.2010, 07:26 AM
Post #43
Location: Dalarna
Joined: 5.Apr.2006

QUOTE (Tomitomi @ 26.Sep.2010, 10:35 PM) *
"Sweden has about 15,000 children in care out of a population of 8 million. Britain has 40,000 in care out of a population of 58 million. If Britain took children into ca ... (show full quote)


The UK is a much more scary example as the UK has targets for forced adoption - therefore the number *in care* seriously understate the numbers removed from parents many of the kids removed from their parents are no longer in care as the parents rights are terminated - whereas in Sweden it is very rare for parental rights to be terminated in this way because parents are disabled etc

The reasons for forcing the adoption of UK children can be spurious such as parents having low IQs or having had a mental illness when younger - in fact there was at least one case in the UK press where the mother fled to Sweden and was able to keep her child
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Taxalien
post 27.Sep.2010, 08:16 AM
Post #44
Joined: 24.Dec.2009

Sweden is not a liberal country. As I have stated many times before, it is a country influenced by paternalism in every facet of life. Those who live here or come to live here must accept or leave. Perhaps that is why the parents in this case decided they wanted to leave, I don't know.

To whomever posted the HSLDA link. Thanks. I'm reposting here again just as a reminder. It would be nice if bigots like Nemesis who have as much empathy as a starving hyena would at least read it before posting any further replies venting his own opinionated views.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Sweden/200912220.asp

Some pertinent quotes for the lazy that totally contradicts some of the opinions posted in this thread:

QUOTE
After some testing by Swedish authorities, it was discovered that Dominic was only slightly behind in some subjects, but that he had been making academic progress. The family had been refused school materials by their local school when they had asked for them last year.

senior police officials in Sweden have criticized local police and social workers for their sensational actions. Press reports also suggest that the local social services may be caught in a trap of their own making. They must continue with their course of action or otherwise admit that they have disgracefully ruined a family and traumatized a child.

And then they will be permitted one-hour visits every fifth week.

We decided as a family that we wanted to move to India where we could be near my wife’s family.

“I have had a mental check with a psychiatrist who has given me a clean bill of health,” says Christer Johansson. “My poor wife, on the other hand, has been absolutely traumatized by this kidnapping. She is in a deep depression and has been hospitalized on several occasions. Is it any wonder? Our only child has been stolen from us and we have only been permitted to see him a few times since he was taken.”

“This case is an absolute outrage,” the former social worker said.

The court opinion also noted that Dominic had not been to the normal child care facilities and to school.

The social worker continued, “What is normal? In whose opinion? Why should the government get to make this decision? The boy is being taken care of and not being harmed. The family had decided to move to India where the mother is from. What is wrong with this?”


Let me just tell you what "normal" child care facilities might be. It might be lumped together with 100 other kids with 5.7 kids per carer supervising. Kids may be as young as 14 months old. Carers might be standing changing nappies most of the day or chattering away being indifferent to children who are obviously distraught at having been left there by their parents in an alien environment. This is all something my wife has witnessed first hand in the last month working there and I have seen it from the outside. Kids wearing Guantanamo style coloured vests to enable carers to identify the children belonging to their group. It is reality. It makes us proud to be able to say that we never ever sent our kids to "Swedish normal child care". No thank you very much. I can't fathom it myself that there actually are 200 adults or so that habitually drop their kids of to this place I have seen for myself.

And to those who have some kind of childish infatuation of child care from when they themselves were young here in Sweden. I am product of that system. I have no recollection whatsoever to have been in any place with so many children. On retelling this to other people who have a similar background, neither can they. Carers working in after school care mentioned to me how absurd it has become and that they would simply never work in such places because of the safety aspect - it is just not possible to ensure the safety of so many children with so few staff and it is detrimental to childrens behavioural development to lumped together in such a manner.

Just a point on the law. Homeschooling is NOT banned in Sweden. NOT right now. But it is after the 1st of January 2011. So there is no justification IN LAW to take away any child in Sweden as has been done in this case.

It is a breach of the law in every respect. If you really believe a country should be built upon laws, then explain this case to us. There is no explanation other than the fact that the conformist paternalistic complicity culture of Sweden has yielded another 3 victims - a mother, a father and a child who doesn't know what to believe any more.
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billyb362
post 27.Sep.2010, 11:02 AM
Post #45
Joined: 29.Mar.2009

QUOTE ([b]Nemesis[/b] @ 4.May.2010, 11:09 AM) *
Where I grew up there was a lot of home schooled people, although thankfully now it is rare as social services has clamped down and taken a lot of the kids into care. Every si ... (show full quote)

But it's not like you, Nemesis, to embellish reality, dramatize events, and outright LIE about stuff to promote your leftist agenda, is it? From all these whacked out postings of yours, I truly believe you should see a friggin' therapist and get some lethal meds for your mental condition.

QUOTE (SarahRF @ 4.May.2010, 12:40 PM) *
As a person who was homeschooled for a few yeas, I can definitely say not everyone turns into a "religious nutcase" and/or "a screwed up adult lacking social sk ... (show full quote)


Re-read the above...
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