(edit title) Bathroom Conversion Question - Tradesmen? Carpenter or Tiler? Options

[John.Smith]

Hi Guys,
I want to convert a room in my house into a master bathroom with bath, shower, toilet etc.. The plan is to tile the floor and walls. Question is what tradesmen do I need to involve in this? Plumber and electrician is obvious but with regards to preparing the walls and floor for tiling, would this be the job of a carpenter or the tiler? Specifically laying the waterproofing lining etc...

Someone once told me that carpenters have to do this as they are the only ones who can certify the work (waterproofing etc..). Sounds a bit strange to me though?

Cheers
J:S:

[Rick Methven]

best way is to go to a specialist company that does it all. Kakel & Klinker they usually say. We had one to do our bathroom. I already had an electrician doing some other work so they liaised with him. They brought in a plumber who they worked closely with to co-ordinate the plumbing with the rest of the work.They then guaranteed the whole lot and got it certified. The electrical work was separate but they would have used their own electrician if I had wanted.

[John.Smith]

Thanks Rick. I had thought about that and approached a couple places but they all wanted to create a package deal whereby I buy all hardware and labour from them. Worked out expensive compared to me buying the hardware and materials myself and going direct labour. Cost estimate (labour + materials etc..) was 120,000 package deal versus 80,000 (estimated) going direct. They seem to make a killing on the mark-up on the hardware especially.
I sourced all the hardware online through various shops at much better prices and the materials I get a 30% discount though family contacts. Would like to keep to a budget as we have just spent 120,000 on new doors and windows for the house... my poor bank balance is getting a hammering and I still have a new kitchen to build, a large barn that needs some urgent TLC and another room to convert into a bedroom upstairs... Phew, going to be an expensive 2012!!!

[Rick Methven]

I picked out want I wanted and showed the company what I could buy the hardware for and asked them for their quote on the same things. I ended up buying the washbasin & toilet myself but their price for the shower unit was 1,500kr less than the price I could get it for. I find that when you get a quote and show that you can buy the material cheaper, they normally will either match the price or do a mix and match. The good thing about letting the contractor supply all materials and units is you do not have a whole pile of things like baths and showers clogging up the place waiting for the contractor to fit them.

[John.Smith]

Good call... I live in a small town so certain suppliers have an absolute monopoly and I have found in the past an unwillingness to match prices etc..

I have been looking on bygghemma.se and their pricing is far superior to the highstreet stores and they have free shipping to the door. Will keep looking

Thanks for the input.

[skogsbo]

you would expect those that want the work, to be flexible on price, especially if the project can start now, as many folk will prefer work indoors!

I've found staying loyal to a few local suppliers gets me a much better deal than some chains like XL. Often 20-30% better, but the trick is to go in and do big orders once in a while, rather than little things but quite often.

[007]

Someone once told me that carpenters have to do this as they are the only ones who can certify the work (waterproofing etc..). Sounds a bit strange to me though?

there's no requirement to use anyone certified for this. DIY is ok (we have done 3 baths ourselves and in the midst of doing a 4th now). according to the swedish ceramic tile council

For private persons who intend to carry out work with ceramic tiles on their own premises, insurance
companies usually accept that kind of work, on the condition that it is carried out following current trade
rules and in accordance with the watertight covering kit manufacturer’s approved mounting instructions.

so if you can puzzle the right labor/parts for 2/3 the package offer, do it. the most current BOVERKETS
BYGGREGLER, BBR, BFS 1993:57 with changes until 2008:6 are more picky about what kind of walls and floors you use now and not just the wetroom sealants (as they were before) but still easy enough to do on your own, or using your own craftspeople.

[gplusa]

We recently went through a similar process. We bought in all the major fittings (basically everything except for pipe) over time, to fit our budget and spread the cost. It possibly cost us a little more in paying retail but it was a trade off with spreading of the cost. We then handed the installation job over to a main contractor to sort out.

Having previously worked as a contractor, we based our purchased items sell price on what the customer would have had to pay if they had bought the item themselves, and not on what it cost us to buy. Even though we might have got a 40% discount on the retail price, we gave the customer maybe a 5% discount on the retail price. Just so it looked like they were getting a good deal. While we made a killing. It's possible that you can score a better deal buying directly yourself.

[John.Smith]

you would expect those that want the work, to be flexible on price, especially if the project can start now, as many folk will prefer work indoors!I've found staying l ... (show full quote)

you would expect those that want the work, to be flexible on price, especially if the project can start now, as many folk will prefer work indoors!

I've found staying loyal to a few local suppliers gets me a much better deal than some chains like XL. Often 20-30% better, but the trick is to go in and do big orders once in a while, rather than little things but quite often. ... (hide full quote)

One would think so!! As I said, small town monopolies but they are surprisingly busy and not short of work either. I waited near on 6 months for my windows and doors to be delivered and fitted. Not much choice or selection up in the far North

[007]

Good call... I live in a small town so certain suppliers have an absolute monopoly and I have found in the past an unwillingness to match prices etc..

there is an upside to small town contractors, they do the job right because they know if they do the job half-assed they won't get more work and local, reliable competition will squeeze them out.

contractors around stockholm know that if there are complaints it doesn't matter as there will be plenty of other jobs they can get. our contractors were moderately serious about doing a decent job and despite reporting them and getting them blacklisted wherever we could, they basically told us to fjuck off when they were supposed to fix problems they caused, ignored or covered up.

it's one of the reasons we are DIY from here on in.

[John.Smith]

Yep when we have used tradesmen here the quality is very good as word does get around fast. When we installed a new heating system we had to call the installer out maybe 5 times over the course of 2 months with teething issues. In fact the problems were nothing to do with their installation and were more to do with our old pipes not being able to cope with a modern pump. Even though we did pay top dollar for the installation they never charged us a penny for the work they did outside of that...
'
Anyways, if I can save myself 40k or so I would be happy! That would be a new concrete floor for my barn/garage which just collapsed a few weeks ago.. Goddamn car is out in the snow

Thanks for the tip 007, much appreciated. I had assumed for insurance reasons that the water sealing had to be certified? I have done it myself before when I build a shower in the basement, but would rather someone with more experience than I do it for the bathroom. I will chat with a few tilers and would guess that they should have the skills to do the job properly.

Cheers for the help folks.

J:S:

[skogsbo]

Thanks for the tip 007, much appreciated. I had assumed for insurance reasons that the water sealing had to be certified? J:S:

I think it's become urban myth now that you are uninsured if it's not done by a tradesman, but if you follow the rules, use the right materials I also believe you are covered.
I have also heard stories where folk tried to claim after using a tradesman and the insurance company didn't pay out, they said the work must have been below standard or he wasn't skilled / qualified in that area! If you do the job proper yourself, you will know it's strengths & weaknesses and happily live with it.

[007]

I had assumed for insurance reasons that the water sealing had to be certified?

there are definitely the products that are required or fulfill the requirements, but any bygg/VVS retailer will carry it/them. i'm not the material/technical specialist in the family. i leave that to the mechanical engineer. i'm design, purchasing, communication, moral support and the extra set of hands (oh, and the cook and babysitter aka -ground support)

[007]

I think it's become urban myth now that you are uninsured if it's not done by a tradesman, but if you follow the rules, use the right materials I also believe you are covered.

i think you're right about the myth part. it also applies to electricity installations. there are some bits of electricity that require a licensed electrician, but if you know what you're doing (which unfortunately is more often than not the case, hence the push for an electrician) you can do most installations yourself.

in our BR we ran all new wiring and installed a great number of things. we have a good friend who is an electrician who told us what we were allowed to do and what he was required to do. in our case, he was required to flip a final switch (or something that simple at the end, basically to confirm that the whole job was done properly) which he did "symbolically" though on paper, officially.

[John.Smith]

Yeah, just spoke to a tiler (ex-tiler actually, now works in on our production plant as a maintenance manager). He said the waterproofing can be done as a DIY, but that if it did spring a leak that the insurance company could make life difficult and drag out the claim. He said that if the bathroom is to be tiled that normally the tiler would do the waterproofing as well unless there are new walls to be built in which case it would be a carpenter or painter.

I will try to find a tiler willing to do both proofing and tiling I think.