(edit title) Legal counselling about job Need legal advice Options

[tiagob69]

Hej to all!

I would really like some input on the following situation, and if someone could direct me to someone who could help me out.
The situation is as follows:
In August last year, I sent a spontaneous application to a professor at KI, which following that, invited me for an interview. Terms were more or less agreed for me to start as a post-doc at the referred lab, and also, I received a letter of acceptance from the department stating that my position, as previously agreed, would start in January 2012, and until december 2014. During that period I was waiting (from September to December), and since everything seemed in accordance to our previous meeting, I then stopped looking for positions, as understandable. Also, during that time, I have, without success, tried to contact that professor to arrange some other things. In December, less than one month before my arrival, I finally had contact with the professor, who then changed his version, and said that he was still trying to find a person for the job, that that person would only be able to arrive in August 2012, and that the paper I got was only to help me fto find an accomodation.
Upon this, I started to contact the union, who gave me all the support as they also think I am entitled to compensation, and they started dialoguing with KI. First, this subject was taken to the Ki Dean, who also supported the cause, but directed us to talk with the department directly. Since this professor is also Chairman of the department, and from his point of view, he did nothing wrong, after a few months, he replied to the union, saying that he would not be available to pay such compensation.
As it stands, this will now be re-directed to the Dean of KI. However, I sense that nothing will come out from this conversations, and since I am fully aware that reason stands on my side, I wanted to have some counselling whether this can be taken farther, as such behaviours should be condemned.

So, if anyone knows about someone I could talk to, to have an opinion on whether and how i can proceed with this, please let me know.

Thank you for the attention

[Yorkshireman]

You say the Union is handling the case for You, then You should be asking them how this will pan out. From a legal perspective, what is written in the agreement is January 2012, not August. It does not matter what the professor says about only writing it for accomodation purposes, that was not what You see ot understood on paper. Unless there is other evidence to that effect?

I suspect in this case that the Union is trying the avenues it can without legal actions, however, they have the necessary legal support also. They will balance initially the possibility of legal action + costs, against the possibility of compensation. Since if it is lost in court the Union will also have not only it's own legal fees, but also the othersides.

Once back with the Dean, the University will also make that judgement, about potential for losing the case + legal fees for both sides and compensation payment.

Let the Union handle this, they are best to judge how to progress, and how solid a case You have. It is not the Swedish way to jump into court directly.

The question You should have is, are you still entitled to the position? Even if it starts in August 2012! ...and can they turn this around and say You didn't turn up as expected?

[Puffin]

I am a little unsure - What were the exact terms?
- did you sign a contract of employment?
- was the position contingent on project funding?
- are they offering you the post for August?
- what reason has been given for withdrawing the offer?

In Sweden most University staff are effectively self employed - the only way to have a job is to won a research grant. Most university departments do not have any of their own money for postdoc positions - usually these are financed via research projects - so I am wondering if the finance for your position did not come through

[tiagob69]

Well, sometimes I get the feeling that it will just stay on the conversation stage... but I agree, first I am letting the Union handling it...

And as for they saying I didn't turn up, that I can refut since I have been in Sweden since January, as it would be expected...

And I guess my case is strong as I have all the emails that were exchanged, and at no point was it stated that the paper was for the purposes they now claim. Neither is wrtitten on the paper anything stating that.

But then I hope the Union just don't let the case stay on the conversation phase...and yet again, I would like some input on whether this could be brought up to higher instances.

Thanks for your reply!

[Puffin]

Just to add to my post above - was it clear that they were offering you a paid job and not just a "guest postdoc" position? - where you are attached to the department but expected to come with your own finance/research grant

[Yorkshireman]

Most university departments do not have any of their own money for postdoc positions - usually these are financed via research projects - so I am wondering if the finance for ... (show full quote)

Most university departments do not have any of their own money for postdoc positions - usually these are financed via research projects - so I am wondering if the finance for your position did not come through ... (hide full quote)

Legally this would be irrelevant, unless it specifically stated in an agreement that the position was dependant upon the funding being secured.

OP, let the Union handle it, You have their support right now, to try and circumvent the process by engaging alternative means of resolution would lose You a valuable supporter. Unions in Sweden are more often than not quick to tell You when the case is a non-starter. Here they are persuing this, which is a good sign.

But, everything by correct process 1st... outside of legal actions. Legal actions only when absolutely necessary, since there is always a risk of losing and facing additional costs!

[Puffin]

Do you mean that a job offer cannot be withdrawn? Not for any reason? I understood that it was only once you had signed the contract that it was binding?

It also depends on the exact wording of the letter and description of the position - this is why I wonder if there has been some miscommunication - my department invites many guest researchers and for visa/accomodation purposes the researchers must be formally invited by letter but we don't pay any of them as guest researchers bring their own funding and are not employees

[tiagob69]

So, what we had agreed was then that I would start in January, and in the meantime, funding would be pursued. At no instance it was stated that my position was dependant on getting the funding or not, and aslo, I knew that that was something waht would have to be sorted out. Again, as between deadlines and applications, I was pretty much convinced that from August until January, no scholarship (at least with my name already involved) would be sorted out.

Turns out that i am sure I won't get the position in August, also because I know who is going to fulfill it. But moreover, I wouldn't now be willing to work with these kind of people.

So, the reason he stated was that the selection recruitment had changed, which delayed the whole process, and hence, they didn't had time to choose the person. Which contradicts what was talked, by first: I sent a spontaneous application and at no moment of our conversation was implied that I was applying for an open position; second: if they were still to choose, they couldn't send me a letter with specific dates of starting and finishing of the contract. However, the paper itself is not a contract, but just an officila document stating that I would be a postdoc/guest researcher from January 2012 until December 2014.

If the letter I was sent was for accomodation purposes, that should have been stated, either in the email or in the letter. I cannot be held responsible for such irresponsability. Besides, I do not need a work visa, hence that purpose cannot be claimed. As for accomodation, no letter from the department is required if you plan to rent an appartment, at least that I know of.

But yeah, this whole process has been quite tiring and stressful, and I just want things to be solved. The union has been of great help, and i am pretty much leaving things on their hands. I am just wandering if it doesn't work, how can I proceed and where could I get an opinion if to take this through.

Thanks again

[Yorkshireman]

Do you mean that a job offer cannot be withdrawn? Not for any reason? I understood that it was only once you had signed the contract that it was binding?

Of-course an offer can be withdrawn, before it is accepted. If the offer is to be withdrawn then normal practise should be to inform the other party that it is withdrawn.

One legal standing of an offer is a view of whether there is an agreement between both parties. The one making the offer, "offers" to another with or without conditions a willingness to enter into a contract on certain terms without further negotiations. Legally one can say a type of contract has been entered into once the other party has indicated their acceptance of the offer. It then becomes a promise, before a more formal contract is signed.

Even signed job contracts can be broken, there are many instances where this is perfectly acceptable. For example, You accept a nice new job offer, sign the contract, then change your mind before the start date, maybe your current employer offers you even more money etc... Most often an employer does not include in employment contracts binding or penalty clauses before the employee actually starts to work officially. So there are no penalties for breaking the contract.

It also depends on the exact wording of the letter and description of the position - this is why I wonder if there has been some miscommunication - my department invites many ... (show full quote)

It also depends on the exact wording of the letter and description of the position - this is why I wonder if there has been some miscommunication - my department invites many guest researchers and for visa/accomodation purposes the researchers must be formally invited by letter but we don't pay any of them as guest researchers bring their own funding and are not employees ... (hide full quote)

This is key ... as it seems to Me here, that on paper it says one thing, but words another eg. Whilst they look for funding. However, in the offer it should clearly state that the position is ultimately dependant upon the funding. Which as I understand it does not.

One could argue here that since the offer/agreement states the position is from January 2012, that they have broken the agreement.

[Bender B Rodriquez]

In Sweden most University staff are effectively self employed - the only way to have a job is to won a research grant.

Not really true. Doctoral and postdoctoral positions are contingent on research funds. Lecturer and professor positions are part of the overall institution budget and generally not tied to projects or grants. However, the percentage of teaching vs research is often governed by the ability to secure external research grants.

[John.Smith]

An offer can be withdrawn before the employment contract is signed... It is not legally binding until both parties have formalised the agreement. My company decided to reduce budget spending at the 11th hour in Jan 2012 due to concerns with the Eurozone crises. I had 2 people lined up to start at the end of Feb (6 weeks before the budget announcement). Our HR people informed the 2 people that the jobs they were offered were no longer available. No contracts had been signed and thus my employer had no legal obligation to employ or compensate. I am quite sure it is not as black and white as that and maybe there are minimum notice requirements etc etc...?

Either way, in the OP's case, it was handled very badly... I don't think his/her case is straight forward but 'morally' he/she is right... If it was simple then the KI would have settled it by know.

[PDX]

Tiago, just take this as a lesson in life - next time have several offers lined up and valid until you have a signed agreement. KI is not obliged to do anything in this case, so save yourself the time and worry and move on.

~~~PDX~~~

[tiagob69]

Well PDX, if that was the case that I had several options, that would be a perfect world, wouldn't it? Besides, I still think that both verbal and written agreement should be of some value. One cannot be so irresnponsible that says to a person, that is in another country, with 3 weeks notice, that after all, things have changed.

And all od the sudden, I can think about many different ways of avoiding 'misscomunication'... as if you think about this case, imagine that this letter was sent to more people in the same situation, or even different, and how it could influence their life. Any other person, thinking about they would change country with a 2 year perspective, by this period would have made arrangements to start their life in that place, especially housing and flight arrangements... If an employer does not have these things in mind, then they are just irresponsible and act in abuse of power.

Maybe here this person is just used to do whatever he wants...

[PDX]

Maybe here this person is just used to do whatever he wants...

I totally agree they pulled a nasty trick on you, but such is life. Move on..

~~~PDX~~~

[tiagob69]

oh..i've moved on... but if everyone would think like that, these situations would just keep happening and happening...

So I have turned the page on this, but still, these situations are to be reported,and maybe something good can turn out for the future...

the 'let it be, it's past' -way is not really my thing, especially in this situation.