(edit title) Forestry investments in Sweden. Buy, Sell, or Hold? Options

[skogsbo]

perhaps the Swedish DIY market is smaller than UK? Perhaps many country Swedes source their wood locally and only townies buy wood in big stores, making the market even smaller?

The value of a product is what a person is prepared to pay and the factors impacting this in two countries are huge. So we would be just guessing and speculating.

Perhaps B&Q etc, run it at narrower margin, making the money on other lines, like the fixings etc..

ps. I don't think it is any different from here to there, having renovated houses in Sweden and the UK, right back to bare stone/wood, timber isn't one of the things that struck me a costing more.

[byke]

"Perhaps" isnt really a valid statement.
However if we look at availability versus cost ... "perhaps" the use of pine in Sweden is due to availability.
Since many other longer growing woods like Oak etc have been pretty much wiped out in Sweden through harvesting and replanting with cheaper, nastier woods like Furu.

If a UK punter can choose between say Oak and Pine then they can make a choice based on need and price structure. Whereas as a Swedish consumer doesn't have such choice or the cost is offset at such a disproportionate rate that it makes unjustifiable.

I like choice, regardless of which lands I roam.

But when a nation has removed a large part of this choice to focus mostly on pine and other cheap soft woods.
Then who really looses out? the consumer, the environment ? ... well at least we rest calmly knowing that a nice hefty wedge of tax is taken from the top of it ... regardless of what it does or doesn't offer those it effects.

[skogsbo]

"Perhaps" isnt really a valid statement.However if we look at availability versus cost ... "perhaps" the use of pine in Sweden is due to availability.Since ... (show full quote)

"Perhaps" isnt really a valid statement.
However if we look at availability versus cost ... "perhaps" the use of pine in Sweden is due to availability.
Since many other longer growing woods like Oak etc have been pretty much wiped out in Sweden through harvesting and replanting with cheaper, nastier woods like Furu. ... (hide full quote)

once again byke you appear to be digressing into an area you know nothing about. Furu, is Norwegian for Swedish Tall, or in English Pine. We'll ignore which sub species as it isn't relevant.

Furu/Tall/Pine is actually a native species of the UK, Sweden and Norway, it was never planted to replace anything. It is in fact an important food stock to deer and elk.

The characteristics of Oak and Pine, very different, so whilst it is easy to substitute one wood for another, neither would be filling their ideal roll if you swapped these. There are in fact many Oaks still grown and many are planted. Just not in the parts that you clearly go to. They don't suit commercial forestry, because they growth time is 2/3 times longer than softwoods. There is a clue to the difference, Oak is a 'hard' wood and not an ever green or soft wood.

Pine isn't cheap or nasty, it is in fact a fantastic tree and wood. It has natural preservatives in it (tar like), so even old pines don't rot (unlike Spruce), it's long lived, very wind resistant due to its small branches. It is also very strong when in clean knot free run. Pine is the king of the soft woods. Hence the price it fetches for good length 4m plus, 18cm+ diameter and a knot count in single figures over the whole length.

If a UK punter can choose between say Oak and Pine then they can make a choice based on need and price structure. Whereas as a Swedish consumer doesn't have such choice or ... (show full quote)

If a UK punter can choose between say Oak and Pine then they can make a choice based on need and price structure. Whereas as a Swedish consumer doesn't have such choice or the cost is offset at such a disproportionate rate that it makes unjustifiable. ... (hide full quote)

Nope, english punters don't choose between pine and oak, they are chalk and cheese when it comes to construction. You may choose between a pine table and oak, but certainly not between woods when it comes to construction.

By the way, the UK oak stocks were plundered about 200-300 years ago, when ships were build out of timber. Then the remaining wood was used for everything and anything in WW1, because they simply had to (birth of Forestry Commission to rebuild national stocks). Much of the UK's Oak is imported from France.

But when a nation has removed a large part of this choice to focus mostly on pine and other cheap soft woods.Then who really looses out? the consumer, the environment ? ... we ... (show full quote)

But when a nation has removed a large part of this choice to focus mostly on pine and other cheap soft woods.
Then who really looses out? the consumer, the environment ? ... well at least we rest calmly knowing that a nice hefty wedge of tax is taken from the top of it ... regardless of what it does or doesn't offer those it effects. ... (hide full quote)

Nope, all wrong. Oak is a hardwood, one of the toughest and heaviest there is. Pine and Spruce are softwoods, much lighter but also still strong for their mass. Softwoods are many times easier to work. That's why they are used in construction in ALL countries. Oak once dried, is as tough as old boots, strong but it's a pig to work and still heavy. I've used massive oak beams in place steel when I removed load bearing walls before, 10inches square, 4 or 5m long there are awesome bits of wood and so bloody heavy, but totally unsuitable for normal construction, only good for support and load bearing stuff. Every roof in every UK brick build house in the last 100years will have softwood (pine/spruce/larch) roof trusses, skirting, doorways,partitions walls etc etc etc..

The environment isn't loosing out, pine forests are as much a natural Scandinavian habit as Oak forests in the Southern England are. It's the best tree for that climate. If you look beyond southern England they are replanting natural birch and pine forests in the north. They'll grow up to the 5/600m mark in Scotland. I bet your oak won't.

It's a shame to think you've been coming to Sweden for how long? but actually know so little about it's natural products, that you belittle and the environment that you either do or don't enjoy.

[byke]

Now your being silly old boy.
First you state that

what do you think all those trimmings around doors and skirting boards are made of

And now are using the justification of pine as being only for construction?

But I will give you credit where credit is due.
Your school report on trees is very "cute".
But unfortunately is redundant within the context of what you, yourself had based assertions on.

You could have spouted on about the merits of maple syrup and how its different from custard. But it doesn't change the subject and content in which was being spoken about.

Again, sheds are made from cheap wood.

[skogsbo]

And now are using the justification of pine as being only for construction?

what are you on about? just because you know nothing about what you started to talk about, are you getting bitter?

Spruce is used in construction far more than Pine, Oak, larch, beech put together. Plus, Sweden grows and sells far more spruce than pine.

ps. Spruce are the ones used for Xmas trees, if you didn't know the difference.

[byke]

Now, calm down ... sit down, relax and try and focus.

what do you think all those trimmings around doors and skirting boards are made of

Nope, english punters don't choose between pine and oak, they are chalk and cheese when it comes to construction.

Now that wasn't too hard now, was it.
BTW spruce skirting boards is a new one one me

[skogsbo]

BTW spruce skirting boards is a new one one me

now you are making it up. Just because you don't know the difference between Pine and Oak trees, or their respective timber's quality, or the price of pine for that matter. If you want the facts I can give you another school boy lesson on exactly which wood is used where in your house, I wouldn't want to make it too high level though for you, as I'm clearly filling in gaps in your education for you. You should be grateful.

Do you know why they use softwoods in shed construction? Enlighten me?

[byke]

now you are making it up.

If you want the facts I can give you

[GBane]

Wow. First off, it must be a slow day at the office. Secondly, thanks for the input Skogsbo. I know my figures were a bit lofty if not idealistic but it was a good point to launch a conversation. Essentially, I was only inquiring how the system of private forestry management worked as an investment vehicle, if it is feasible, and what it might entail outside of capital expenditure. Regardless, now I also have an acute understanding of what sheds, homes, and door/window trimmings are made of. Thanks for the input.

[skogsbo]

your welcome. I would say in essence, if you ignore a few factors. Owning a small amount of forest say 50-200hectares works ok, if you are living in the same country, live by it and want to be involved and are able to pay a percentage up front for it.

If you want to do it remotely then you need to paying for nearly all of it in cash, as your returns are small, so you'll want it a profit / revenue, not just covering the interest payment.

Finally - if you borrow for forest. The bank will only lend you money based on the value of the forest after all the currently harvestable trees are gone. The theory is that a storm could flatten the lot tomorrow, you then default on the loan, the bank is left with a loan worth more than the forest. So when you see a forest worth 6mKr, but has 1000m3 of standing timber, they'll take 500-600,000kr off the value of what they'll lend you.

[BAF Management]

Hi,
Have you ever thought to invest in forest in Brazil? I don't mean to invest in native forest (Amazon Forest) since it is a headache, but in a planted forest. Brazil has more then 6 million of planted forest (Eucalyptus, Teak, and others different species). The cost to plant an Eucalyptus is around US$ 1.800/ha, which includes the land purchase, seedling, planting and assistance for the first year, the first cycle harvest is for 6 to 7 years.
If you are interested please feel free to contact us: contact@brasilagroflorestal.com

[quote name='GBane' date='10.Oct.2012, 05:09 PM' post='770358']
Hello,

I've been looking at Forestry investments in Sweden. I'm from Canada and a majority of our forests are owned and operated by large timber corporations so for me this is a foreign concept. From my understanding, in Sweden, most forests are owned and operated by private individuals or families. ...