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The Swedish Democrats remind me of Nazis

Be vigilant of the Swedish Nazis

John.Smith
post 21.Jan.2013, 03:34 PM
Post #31
Location: Sweden
Joined: 12.Sep.2011

smile.gif

1. I hardly think that Sweden will brain-drain other countries somehow. I think that is a gross exaggeration.
2. Nobody knows what the world will hold for anyone in 2050, but we can at least read the trends now. One big trend in Northern Europe is an aging populace and ever increasing strains on the public purse. To ignore trends will result in disaster and is akin to putting one's head in the sand.
3. I don't get to chose a solution for Sweden (as much as I would like to smile.gif ), democratic voting does that. However, we have on the one hand a right-wing minority party who is growing in popularity via scare tactics and misinformation and on the other a political party that refuses to acknowledge that migration is even an issue for Sweden. Neither is thinking long term.
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Yorkshireman
post 21.Jan.2013, 04:52 PM
Post #32
Joined: 22.Nov.2011

Here is the EU Age report from 2012 which looks at the future needs, trends and what Member States are doing in reaction to the forecasts:

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/public...e-2012-2_en.pdf


The population aged 65 and above will increase very markedly throughout the projection
period. This group will almost double, rising from 87.5 million in 2010 to 152.6 million in
2060 in the EU. The number of older people (aged 80 years and above) is projected to
increase by even more, almost tripling from 23.7 million in 2010 to 62.4 million in 2060.


An ageing population will have a strong upward impact on public spending for long-term
care. This is because frailty and disability rise sharply at older ages, especially amongst the
very old (aged 80+) which will be the fastest growing segment of the population in the
decades to come.

According to the "AWG reference scenario"23 based on current policy settings, public
spending on long-term care is projected to double, increasing from 1.8% of GDP in 2010 to
3.4% of GDP in 2060 in the EU as a whole (to 3.4% of GDP in the EA). The projected
absolute changes range from less than ½ % of GDP in Bulgaria, Estonia, Cyprus, Latvia,
Portugal and Slovakia to more than 2 ½ % of GDP in Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands,
Finland and Sweden, reflecting very different approaches to the provision/financing of formal
care.
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Mib
post 21.Jan.2013, 05:58 PM
Post #33
Joined: 7.Jul.2006

In the UK, they will force an elderly person to use their savings, followed by selling their house to fund their care if being looked after in an old peoples home. Is that the same in Sweden? I know that the UK are looking at limiting the amount to a maximum between £35,000 to £75,000 per person...which is targetted to start in 2017...but it's all speculation at the moment. The argument has been, why bother working hard, saving etc if towards the end of your life, you use it to pay for your care, while others who have relied on benefits and or spent their money enjoying life get it for free.

It's going to be a massive problem with some very difficult decisions for Governments. The only real answer is to increase taxes and/or have some sort of mandatory insurance policy to take care of you if/when you end up with the need for care from the state. With the pressure on pensions meaning the age of retirement will increase, which will make it more difficult for the young to get jobs as people work into their 70s.

There has to be a massive shift in education and Government policy to educate people to be healthy as possible ie. there is a scientific based fasting concept called 5:2 where you fast (still can have between 500/600 cals) for 2 days and eat what you want for 5 days. It allows your cells which are always multiplying due to eating constantly and not being able to slow down and repair some of the defunct cells which can turn into cancerous tumours etc. So the idea is that you might still live longer, but your quality of life will be much better.
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John.Smith
post 22.Jan.2013, 08:27 AM
Post #34
Location: Sweden
Joined: 12.Sep.2011

I have been very conscious of my pension plan and have a large fund back home. It is a shame that Sweden does not currently offer higher incentives (tax relief) for pension savings. 1000-2000sek a month is pittance and only makes a small difference when you retire.

Our kids generation will be the ones to bear the brunt of the hardship and taxes as they effectively will be paying for us. Considering that the average age of death is increasing every decade, we can realistically expect to live into our 90's by 2050. That means about 40 years of a working life with 30 years of retirement! It doesn't add up...
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Juniorr
post 22.Jan.2013, 08:19 PM
Post #35
Location: Karlskrona
Joined: 21.Oct.2012

QUOTE (byke @ 12.Jan.2013, 11:47 AM) *
National SocialismHowever you package and sell it (hidden or shown) its been a strong part of Sweden since the last war.The only difference being how its been packaged, shown ... (show full quote)

I have been missing alot in this debate, but your take on 'nationalism' prompts me to add a quick reply.
It's a brilliant exposee and I have no ground to disagree with you.
In debates of such nature, one thing should be obvious, esp to political analysts like us, that the growing support from Swedes to the SD is an indication of how 'Nationalism' is growing amongst Swedes.

This reminds me of the fact you mentioned above "package...". The jingoism sentiments among many nationals (even Africa, the continent I came from) have always been there, but it never get someone to expose it. So, in a nutshell, am saying whenever the SD gains momentum in Sweden, it obviously means Swedes are becoming sympathisers to extreme-nationalism and jingoism.

The SD shall never get my sympathy or vote!!
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oddsock
post 22.Jan.2013, 11:09 PM
Post #36
Joined: 19.Dec.2008

There has always been a strong tribal/nationalist element in Europe. People forget all to easily that anti-semitism was rife all over Europe before WWII. The Nazis took it to an extreme, but being Jewish in western and eastern Europe was to be an outcast, an outsider.

60 years ago wasn't that long ago. The EU project has tried to bury this European tribalism but it seems to be surfacing again. And I say surfacing, because it has always been there, but nationalist parties have been made taboo in Europe. Essentially people are ashamed to vote for it, even if they have sympathies for such parties. But once the taboo is broken the dam bursts and support rises quickly. The media is usually complicit in this by painting a picture of broken society and ghettos, often over-exaggerating and selectively reporting stories. You saw the rise in support happen in the last 15 years in France (FN), Belgium (Vlaams Blok), Holland (PVV), Denmark (Folk Party), Austria (Haider). All of these were supposedly enlightened countries where such parties would never become popular. But they did. Because the same tribalism has always existed there. Now you see SD at 12.5% in the Swedish polls, which is pretty similar support that those types of parties get in the countries I mentioned. The problem is that the mainstream parties then also shift to the hard-right in a contest for those 12.5% of votes. At first they stay on a high horse and refuse it, but after a couple of elections they realise that they can profit by pandering to the hard-right support.

My greatest fear is that in the generations that come, WWII will become an ancient war that is forgotten, and then we're all back to square one. Throw dwindling oil reserves into the mix and people will go looking for another scapegoat.
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John.Smith
post 23.Jan.2013, 08:04 AM
Post #37
Location: Sweden
Joined: 12.Sep.2011

Well said.

The hard right is an easy sell especially when times are tough. In the 20th Century each and every rise of the extreme hard right has flourished on economic hardship. In the 21st Century this is also mingled in with an increase in xenophobic sentiments after 9-11 and recent massive economic growth in the East (China). To put it simply, people are nervous. Nervous for their safety and nervous over their economy.

The media (especially in the UK) are quite happy to pick up on this sentiment and bring it up a few levels by tapping into this fear as it sells papers. Rather than look at solutions, it is far easier to play the blame game and scapegoat.
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entry
post 23.Jan.2013, 08:29 AM
Post #38
Location: Västra Götaland
Joined: 1.Jul.2007

QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 08:04 AM) *
Well said.. The hard right is an easy sell especially when times are tough. In the 20th Century each and every rise of the extreme hard right has flourished on economic hardship.

Hard Right what are you squawking about? National Socialists & Communists, two far-left militant extremes each totally against capitalism, free markets and individual rights and you want to re-write history and call it right wing or conservative?

Call a spade a spade. Who are you fooling John?

Today's Antifa and the neo-nazi groups are two militant left-wing groups that mirror the communists and the Nazi's of the past but they have nothing to do with conservative right-wing, free market, capitalist thinking today.
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John.Smith
post 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM
Post #39
Location: Sweden
Joined: 12.Sep.2011

LOL! Of course you would argue otherwise!

Yeah... maybe a bit of reading up on your part would help. Hitler set up the Nazi (short for national socialist) party and gathered people by left leaning thinking initially. He was quoted early in his rise to power as being against capitalism. However, we all saw how that worked out. He twisted and contorted this view to support his extreme far right tendencies and in fact ended up winning most support by arguing for a free German market on the back of releasing the German populace from the poverty and economic hardship imposed upon them after WW1.
Hitler and his Nazi party were as extreme right as you can get by today's standards. He had no time for Marxist policies and in fact detested them primarily because he felt they were too 'jewish' in thinking and design.

If you look at the BNP party in the UK as an example, they are a Nationalistic self described Right Wing Party with ties and allies here in Sweden. In fact although Sweden Democrats do not like to be called far-Right, they are considered so by many.

Having far-right views is not contained to your views on only economic markets. It is a little more complex than that.
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Yorkshireman
post 23.Jan.2013, 10:41 AM
Post #40
Joined: 22.Nov.2011

QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM) *
Having far-right views is not contained to your views on only economic markets. It is a little more complex than that.

Exactly ...however... biggrin.gif

Hitler's Nazi's certainly did not believe in the free market, they did not believe in the traditional right view of small government and limited control by the state ...in fact they wanted a very large government, that controlled almost every aspect of life on behalf of the people. The party (socialist-like) glorified the German Worker, looked down upon large landowners and the intention was that the central government would control industry and economic power. Hmmmm, sounds very left-wing ...but then add into the pot that Trade Unions were banned, because they were not needed as the state would handle all that! ...then there are right-ish leanings also wink.gif ...isn't this mix and control more rather Fascism?
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oddsock
post 23.Jan.2013, 11:42 AM
Post #41
Joined: 19.Dec.2008

I would say that power, by definition, corrupts. It doesn't matter if it starts out as left wing or right wing. The USSR started out as left-wing, but that ended up with Joe Stalin. The European empires of the 18th and 19th century were all right wing, and went around murdering entire continents.

You put too much power in one place and it will eventually be misused. You even saw it in Sweden to some extent with the Social Democrats, with the forced sterilisations of people and destruction of old city centres.

Decentralisation/dilution of power is the key.
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entry
post 23.Jan.2013, 12:04 PM
Post #42
Location: Västra Götaland
Joined: 1.Jul.2007

QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM) *
LOL! Of course you would argue otherwise! Hitler set up the Nazi (short for national socialist) party and gathered people by left leaning thinking initially.

Yes, I understand that. I however fail to see any examples that you have provided to indicate that Hitler deviated from the leftist paradigm. Are we to take this on your say so or can you provide examples that Hitler did not vary from the far-left?

QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM) *
He was quoted early in his rise to power as being against capitalism. However, we all saw how that worked out. He twisted and contorted this view to support his extreme far ri ... (show full quote)

Dear JOHN, I really do not understand what you are trying to say. What possible "extreme far right tendencies" did Hitler exhibit? The communists in the far-leftist Soviets exterminated Jews, Christians & Muslims in far greater numbers than Hitlers far-leftist socialist party. What leg do you have to stand on here 'Dear JOHN?' If anyone else that is reading this thread understands what Dear JOHN is trying to say; please chime in because I am really trying to find a thought process here.

Dear JOHN, I am at a loss at how Hitler is not a far-left national socialist or a far-left communist by my narrow band definition of your far left although I DO understand the subtle differences between your leftist socialist friends and your far-left communist friends and why on a Thursday night or a Friday night you Dear John would never bring them together.You as "Dear JOHN" can somehow make him in today's world as akin to someone who believes in democracy, free-market trade, capitalism and individual libertarianism values. Dear JOHN, can you stand on your head and spit nickels and explain that one to everyone else and myself also? (I have a two for one Kebab pizza coupon for you if you can do that.)

QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM) *
Hitler and his Nazi party were as extreme right as you can get by today's standards.

How? You have only made these empty statements as if they were true. Hitler does not in any way resemble a conservative(that is called a member of the right-wing) that believes in free-markets, individual freedom and small central government. Dear JOHN, how can you reconcile the fact that you call Hitler right-wing when Hitler acted in goose-step to all of the left-wing tenants and is the antithesis of the fact of what is today considered by academic history elitist revisionists as the right wing?

So Dear JOHN, do you have anything but hyperbole to offer or do you have anything at all that can advance this discussion?
QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM) *
He had no time for Marxist policies and in fact detested them primarily because he felt they were too 'jewish' in thinking and design.

What are you talking about? The Stalinists that just kill the JEW or the far-leftist NAZIs that kill the JEW and document it. I haven't a clue as to what you might be thinking. Please elaborate. (Does anyone else have an idea as to what "Dear JOHN" might be hinting at?) Dear JOHN, I think you are trying to make hay about two far-leftist sides of a coin that you could not possibly slip a cigarette paper between.
QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM) *
If you look at the BNP party in the UK as an example, they are a Nationalistic self described Right Wing Party with ties and allies here in Sweden. In fact although Sweden Dem ... (show full quote)

"You Don't say!" No, John, you do not say. You do not provide any logic that can be followed.
Dear JOHN, How do you expect me to take you seriously?
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John.Smith
post 23.Jan.2013, 12:22 PM
Post #43
Location: Sweden
Joined: 12.Sep.2011

QUOTE (Yorkshireman @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:41 AM) *
Exactly ...however... Hitler's Nazi's certainly did not believe in the free market, they did not believe in the traditional right view of small government and limited ... (show full quote)

Yep... it was a strange mix alright. However, the Nazi's were very anti-Left (in terms of communism) in thinking and were very outspoken about this. In fact they were founded from the hard-right Völkisch Nationalists and also the extremely militant Freikorps that actually physically battled with the communists in post WW1 Germany.
The coining of the term the Third Reich was based on a form of right-wing socialism that combined some elements of socialism but driven with a right wing nationalist thinking. In essence a pick and mix of both sides but operated out of Right wing politics. In actual fact, Hitler later downplayed the anti-capitalist rantings in order to gain Industrial support for his movement in the mid-thirties. This is when he stepped up his anti-semitic campaigns.

So in short, Nazi's started out right-wing, mixed a little with left-wing and resorted back to extreme right wing before WW2.
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Yorkshireman
post 23.Jan.2013, 01:38 PM
Post #44
Joined: 22.Nov.2011

QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 12:22 PM) *
So in short, Nazi's started out right-wing, mixed a little with left-wing and resorted back to extreme right wing before WW2.

You will find that in the rise to power the 25 point-plan that Hitler put together was picking items from the Left-Wing and from the Right-Wing ...each selected to pull under their wing selected sections of the population, away from other parties. Not really left or right wing, but couldnt be Center as that ground was held by the Catholics wink.gif

It is interesting to see how just because they were against, as you define, far-left communism, they must have been right wing??? Kind of implies that everyone that is not right-wing is a communist???

Though one has to admit, the left-sided leanings of the Nazi party, even when it becamse a totalitarian dictatorship are often forgotten, I do wonder sometimes if on purpose, given the fact (and we even see it here in the forum) that anything that is center-right, right, nationalistic ...is quickly dismissed as Nazism. Convenient scare tactic to avoid discussions?

...Nazism was about total control where needed by the State, think about that when You say that Sweden should pass a law about texting whilst driving, rather than educate, or all those other items people want to quickly legislate against! wink.gif
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intrepidfox
post 23.Jan.2013, 01:53 PM
Post #45
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 18.Jul.2012

QUOTE (John.Smith @ 23.Jan.2013, 10:13 AM) *
He had no time for Marxist policies and in fact detested them primarily because he felt they were too 'jewish' in thinking and design,

That is not 100% true concerning the Marxist. During WW1 Hitler and his cronies were at the front fighting for Germany while at home The Reds were starting a take over of the country. They even organised a strike at ammunition factories around the country . That is another small part of why he hated them.
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