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Shrinking the state...in Sweden?

The new Swedish model

cogito
post 3.Feb.2013, 03:29 PM
Post #31
Joined: 30.Dec.2009

QUOTE (Orcade @ 2.Feb.2013, 05:08 PM) *
The socialist=liberal fallacy is this:Communists, socialists, social democrats, moderates, liberals, (anything with the word social in it), etc.= Evil ol' commies In addit ... (show full quote)

A common socialist fallacy is believing that adding the word "democracy" makes socialism or communism democratic:
DDR The German Democratic Republic (GDR; German: Deutsche Demokratische Republik
Just as the People's Republic of China is anything but a republic.

Which "american government" painted Sweden as a socialist hell? Names? Dates?
In fact, the present American government is well to the left of the old Swedish social democrats.

"Obama har under dessa två år av kampanjande drivit ett populistiskt klasskampstema av samma slag som vi brukar höra från vänstersocialister i Sverige. Folkets avundsjuka ska mobiliseras mot ”de rika”, ofta liktydigt med framgångsrika entreprenörer. Valet stod, enligt min uppfattning, mellan en avundskultur av europeiskt slag och den klassiska amerikanska kulturen

Under Obama har USA världens högsta bolagsskatt, på 35 procent. Han står, såvitt bekant, för en återgång till en arvsskatt på hela 55 procent (medan en socialdemokratisk regering avskaffat arvsskatten i Sverige). Han vill skärpa progressionen i inkomstskatteskalan i ett land som redan har världens högsta progression, enligt OECD"

http://www.frivarld.se/magasin/hans-bergst...n-dum-amerikan/

QUOTE (Orcade @ 2.Feb.2013, 05:08 PM) *
...we had a common enemy in Russia, but that didnt stop the american administration from accusing Sweden of being socialist.

Really? Which American administration said that? Which person in the administration? which president?
I have, however, been told that in December 1972, Olof Palme (then Prime Minister) made a speech on Swedish national radio comparing Americans to Nazis.

QUOTE (Orcade @ 2.Feb.2013, 04:50 PM) *
I am not going to comment more than that on current affairs in USA regarding religion because honestly, I dont know that much about it.

Good idea.
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entry
post 3.Feb.2013, 03:39 PM
Post #32
Location: Västra Götaland
Joined: 1.Jul.2007

QUOTE (Orcade @ 2.Feb.2013, 09:52 PM) *
Post #21Embarrassing, but yes you are right. I meant to say richest by GDP per capita, not largest economy. I did write richest in Post #15 but I understand that it's hard ... (show full quote)

Median household income is a much better metric than GDP per capita.

Attached Image

http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932381684
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oddsock
post 3.Feb.2013, 03:44 PM
Post #33
Joined: 19.Dec.2008

Orcade, you can't name one type of tax being higher in the USA than in Sweden and then say that the USA has higher tax than Sweden. You have to look at the total tax income as a percentage of GDP. This includes all forms of tax. Remember, Sweden charges 12% VAT on such basic necessities as food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...rcentage_of_GDP

Sweden is taking approx 47% of GDP in tax and the USA approx 25%. Which makes the whole "fiscal cliff" in the US an bit of a joke, they could solve it overnight if they so wished.

Tax take as a % of GDP in the USA is very low, similar to the Reagan years. And Reagan wasn't what you'd call a socialist. Obama is probably the most right-wing democratic president there has been - well, in the modern era at least.
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Bender B Rodriquez
post 3.Feb.2013, 03:48 PM
Post #34
Joined: 25.Mar.2006

QUOTE (cogito @ 3.Feb.2013, 04:29 PM) *
I have, however, been told that in December 1972, Olof Palme (then Prime Minister) made a speech on Swedish national radio comparing Americans to Nazis.

He didn't really compare Americans to Nazis. He compared the bombings of Hanoi to atrocities committed by e.g. the Nazis:
"Man bör kalla saker och ting vid deras rätta namn och det som pågår idag i Vietnam, det är en form av tortyr. Det man nu gör, det är att plåga människor. Plåga en nation för att förödmjuka den, tvinga den till underkastelse under maktspråk. Och därför är bombningarna ett illdåd. Och av det har vi många exempel i den moderna historien. Och de är i allmänhet förbundna med ett namn: Guernica, Oradour, Babij Jar, Katyń, Lidice, Sharpeville, Treblinka. Där har våldet triumferat. Men eftervärldens dom har fallit hård över dem som burit ansvaret. Nu fogas ett nytt namn till raden: Hanoi, julen 1972."
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Orcade
post 3.Feb.2013, 04:26 PM
Post #35
Joined: 23.Apr.2012

Post #31
Did you really just compare the PRC and DDR to Sweden? I know that it is a common phenomenon for totalitarian communist dictatorships to claim to be democracies and I find that just as laughable as you probably do.

Regarding the comments the american administration made about sweden having the highest suicide rate and comparing it to a "socialist hell", I can't find any credible sources for that right now, as I am on my cellphone so I guess i will momentarily have to go back on those comments.
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Orcade
post 3.Feb.2013, 04:47 PM
Post #36
Joined: 23.Apr.2012

Post #33
I never called Reagan a socialist.. Where did you get that from? Also, I might be wrong about this so correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a "hidden" kind of VAT in the US as well, only it is added onto the price of the thing you buy?

You are saying that I can't disprove the notion of "socialist sweden" by refering to the fact that we no longer have property tax, inheritance tax, wealth tax, having a corporate tax that is lower than in the U.S. (and is about to be lowered again from 26.3% to 22%) and to say that our income tax rate is lower than that of California? That's what I did, nothing else.
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oddsock
post 3.Feb.2013, 05:07 PM
Post #37
Joined: 19.Dec.2008

You want to have a "debate". I have no interest in that.

I never said you compared Reagan to anyone. I was comparing Obama's tax rates to Reagan's tax rates. I was. I wasn't having a debate with you.

I will tell you, however, if you want to compare tax rates between countries then you need to look at the tax income as a percentage of GDP, because this covers all taxes. This is how economists compare the tax burden in different countries. Sweden and Denmark are the two highest in the world. Those are the facts that can be proved with numbers.

Does that mean they are socialists, capitalists or communists? I really couldn't care less, those are the kinds of arguments that students who believe in these kinds of labels have. I say this because I remember being a student myself, many moons ago.
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hosonna
post 5.Feb.2013, 07:19 AM
Post #38
Joined: 5.Feb.2013

QUOTE (cogito @ 2.Feb.2013, 08:46 AM) *
Sweden is quietly reinventing capitalism. Maybe there's hope after all. . http://www.economist.com/news/special-repo...ism-says-adrian

Yea it is a great and we can make it with full of enjoyment...
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BennyOBenny
post 5.Feb.2013, 11:15 AM
Post #39
Joined: 25.Jan.2013

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but one thing that Sweden is lacking and that the anglo-saxon economies have in spades, is a flexible economy. And yes, Sweden has done well with it's form of socialism but it did borrow a substantial amount of money to do so.
To clarify something previously, Sweden did have an inheritance tax and a wealth tax up until very recently.
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what would thomas paine d...
post 6.Feb.2013, 03:52 PM
Post #40
Joined: 15.Oct.2012

Post 33 "Obama is probably the most right-wing democratic president..."

I don't understand this observation. Can anyone explain this?
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cogito
post 6.Feb.2013, 06:33 PM
Post #41
Joined: 30.Dec.2009

QUOTE (what would thomas paine do @ 6.Feb.2013, 03:52 PM) *
Post 33 "Obama is probably the most right-wing democratic president...". I don't understand this observation. Can anyone explain this?

Absolute monarchs are usually right-wing.
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entry
post 6.Feb.2013, 07:49 PM
Post #42
Location: Västra Götaland
Joined: 1.Jul.2007

Really?

Give me the first few right-wing absolute monarchs that roll off your tongue, cogito. I think upon reflection you will find that most of the despots are from the left.

Voltaire, the French philosopher who has given us much to ponder still believed that the best form of government was that of a benevolent dictator(one that believed as he did).
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cogito
post 7.Feb.2013, 11:11 AM
Post #43
Joined: 30.Dec.2009

QUOTE (entry @ 6.Feb.2013, 07:49 PM) *
Voltaire, the French philosopher who has given us much to ponder still believed that the best form of government was that of a benevolent dictator(one that believed as he did).

Voltaire! Mon dieu! What are you doing, Entry, referring to Enlightenment philosophers here? Haven't you been listening to Skogsbo? Englightenment thinkers along without their works (e.g. the Constitution) should to be thrown iin the dustbin and replaced with what?...dagis philosophers?

Even before Voltaire. I think Plato advocated an enlightened/benevolent despot (he called it a "Philosopher King") .

But basically you are correct. Most despots are left-wing.

My (admittedly gnomic) reply was referring to Obama whose despotic abuse of power has appalled even his most ardent former supporters (see link)
As despots go, I do not think Barack the First merits the "enlightened" part of Voltaire's epithet.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelst...g-american-king
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what would thomas paine d...
post 7.Feb.2013, 02:13 PM
Post #44
Joined: 15.Oct.2012

At least Meacham used "king" as a negative term. What are we supposed to do with Newsweek's editor saying Obama is "sort of god"? Or Jamie Foxx's reference to Obama as "our god, our lord and savior"? Or Chris Rock telling the public that Obama is "our boss" and that he and the first lady are our "dad and mom" who we should listen to and do as we're told?

King, god, lord, savior, father? The other synonym that came to mind was "master." No one will use that for obvious reasons, but isn't it poured from the same well?

Speaking of drones, there were articles a while back on an NYC designer, Adam Harvey, who's put together a line of 'drone-proof' anti-surveillance clothing... http://rt.com/usa/news/drone-artist-harvey-surveillance-665/

"By the year 2020, however, the Federal Aviation Administration expects the number of domestic drones in American airspace to be as large as 30,000... surveillance drones, some of which “can zoom in and read a milk carton from 60,000 feet..."
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entry
post 7.Feb.2013, 04:54 PM
Post #45
Location: Västra Götaland
Joined: 1.Jul.2007

It is shameful that some individuals are given noble piece prizes, elected into high political office judged by the color of their skin but not the content of their character.

This to me is racism. I do not approve. I do not care what color you are or what you worship. If you are a decent individual and I feel safe with you around my family you can sit at my table whenever you like, but call first and give me a heads up, I do not like surprises -Paul
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