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Romanian vs Swedish name

Guy trying to join the employment club

Kn33grow
post 6.Feb.2013, 10:48 AM
Post #31
Joined: 13.Aug.2012

QUOTE (Yorkshireman)
And of-course the 58.000 work permits issued since 2008 that were issued to non-EU workers is proof of that nepotism! rolleyes.gif

And ofcourse atleast half those permits have been issued to spouses and partners.Add the McDonald work permits scam and you will see the real picture.

QUOTE (Yorkshireman)
So this equal opportunities, and earlier mentioned freedom of choice, should not be extended to employers, or even managers that are measured by the people they bring into their teams? ohmy.gif

Are you saying that managers should be allowed to discriminate in their employee choice rather than empowering this said managers so they are judged on merits of who they hire and not nationality?

QUOTE (Yorkshireman)
Employment is a personal choice of the one doing the recruiting, and sometimes it even comes down to personal attributes as a decider.

Such things can come into factor after looking at the merits and qualifications. Sending a CV direct to the dustbin just coz it has a foreign name on it doesnt fit the bill here.

QUOTE (Yorkshireman)
Look at it from a different perspective ... the number of threads that start on this forum that state quite strong negative opinions about Sweden and it's population ... show that the employers have good reason to believe We (immigrants) wouldn't fit into the work-place, nor be able to deal with the Swedish customers and suppliers correctly! ohmy.gif

And try to look at it from a different perspective,this time from the immigrants view. He cant get work,is discriminated against and all blame is put on him. Plus there is a difference in what people write on forums and how they will behave in the real world,evidence of which is the number of immigrant hating posts that come from people who will greet you warmly on the streets, with a big smile on their faces.
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texaslass
post 6.Feb.2013, 10:52 AM
Post #32
Joined: 3.Dec.2008

For as frustrating as it is to be discriminated against, discrimination is not just a 'Swedish thing' - it is a 'human thing.' I think that the comparison between Sweden and Italy was a fair one, both countries are fairly mono-cultural. I do not think that it is fair to compare a multi-cultural country like the US, Canada to Sweden.

In homogenous societies like Sweden, where almost everyone has the same name, same language, religion, similar belief systems, outsiders will naturally be regarded with suspicion. It is quite simple, that is one does not have experience with something, then one does not feel comfortable with it. Swedes do not have so much experience dealing with people who are of a different culture, therefore it is difficult for them to accept those who are different. This is just basic human nature.

I used to be shocked with my Swedish boyfriend's childhood experiences (or perhaps lack of experiences): he had never been to a bar/bat mitzvah, no Hindi debuts, no Diwali celebrations, no quinceñeras. I am no longer surprised. He grew up in a mono-cultural society. No big deal- it is just different than a multi-cultural society.

Ok, so its no fun being the outsider. But, that is the reality when one lives in a mono-cultural country.
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oddsock
post 6.Feb.2013, 12:04 PM
Post #33
Joined: 19.Dec.2008

QUOTE (Yorkshireman @ 6.Feb.2013, 12:18 AM) *
Experience can play a big part, but I also know companies that will discount anyone that does not appear to have lived a considerable time in Sweden, name plays a part in that ... (show full quote)

Sorry, this is bollocks, you cannot judge somebody's language skills by a name. As a child, I grew up in another country. I went to school there, university there and had relevant work experience there. I spoke their language better than most natives in that country. In fact, sometimes I think in that language, so ingrained it has become in my mind. In fact, seeing as I spoke their language at a native level - in addition to native English - you'd think it would be an asset. So I sent my CV off to many companies there (both private and public sector) and got no reply. Two friends of mine from the same university class, who had lower grades than me, took longer to finish their degrees than me (they were party animals) and who had less work experience than me both got jobs at companies where I applied. The key is that they had the correct sounding name. The irony is because of that I accepted a job in Sweden, and now I discover the same thing here, with the Swedes at my company getting "taken care of", while they move me from one temporary contract to the next.

Saying that it is the employer's choice to discriminate based on name is like saying that it's the employer's choice to discriminate based on gender or skin colour. It's the employer's choice to do illegal things, sure.
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Yorkshireman
post 6.Feb.2013, 12:14 PM
Post #34
Joined: 22.Nov.2011

QUOTE (Kn33grow @ 6.Feb.2013, 10:48 AM) *
And ofcourse atleast half those permits have been issued to spouses and partners.Add the McDonald work permits scam and you will see the real picture.

You are wrong, the 58.000 is specifically work permits, relationships permits is higher and not included in that number. This is 58.000 work permits where employers have chosen to give jobs to people from outside of the Sweden and EU. Bet they didn't have Swedish names either! rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Kn33grow @ 6.Feb.2013, 10:48 AM) *
Are you saying that managers should be allowed to discriminate in their employee choice rather than empowering this said managers so they are judged on merits of who they hire and not nationality?

I am saying that employers should be able to choose whom they feel is best for their company.
Example: If a company knows from experience that, say, a consultants role sells better to customers when it has a certain sounding name, then that of-course plays a part in how they select applicants for the position. It is a companies role to make as much profit for it's shareholders/owners as possible, and if the shareholders do not want the company to educate the population/customers to be anti-descriminatory, then the company does not have the mandate to do that. Just as managers must do what their managers direct, CEOs etc... have a responsibility to do their shareholders bidding.

QUOTE (Kn33grow @ 6.Feb.2013, 10:48 AM) *
Such things can come into factor after looking at the merits and qualifications. Sending a CV direct to the dustbin just coz it has a foreign name on it doesnt fit the bill here.

See above response ...when faced with 100s of applicants, they need to be filtered quickly, finding the right candidate for the role does not mean reading every single CV and checking every single qualification, sometimes quick filtering is required etc...merits and qualifications are not the sole criterior in many positions available. In fact, for this candidate in the news story, we do not actually know what kind of cover letter He wrote, if any, what positions or agencies did he apply to? ...ieg. f he is a new grad. and applied to an agency recruiting experienced managers then it is highly likely He would not get a reply regardless of name.

QUOTE (Kn33grow @ 6.Feb.2013, 10:48 AM) *
And try to look at it from a different perspective,this time from the immigrants view. He cant get work,is discriminated against and all blame is put on him.

And everytime someone jumps up and shouts descrimination etc... gives more reason for employers to have doubts about employing those groups, even when they initially have none... One of the aspects that they will take into account is behaviour in the workplace, a recruiter may tend to avoid certain groups because of the likelyhood that anything potentially negative arising in the workplace, with a customer etc... will be raised quickly into the media as descrimination and/or racism against that employer and/or customer ...something companies certainly wish to avoid. Especially so in these toughening economic times, one cannot afford the risk.

And often, since only around 15-20% of open positions are actually advertised, being called in for an interview is luck!... there was a study done a few years ago by one government dept. (covering all job seekers) that indicated on average it took approx 60 applications to get called for an interview ...those that get interviews relatively easily, have something the employer certainly wants that sets them slightly apart from the rest of the applicants.
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oddsock
post 6.Feb.2013, 12:19 PM
Post #35
Joined: 19.Dec.2008

QUOTE
And everytime someone jumps up and shouts descrimination etc... gives more reason for employers to have doubts about employing those groups

Yeah, and I guess Rosa Parks making a fuss about sitting on the bus with everybody else only made the bus company have even more doubts about her.
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Migga
post 6.Feb.2013, 12:35 PM
Post #36
Joined: 26.Jul.2011

QUOTE (SergioSver @ 6.Feb.2013, 08:26 AM) *
Certainly discrimination exists everywhere, but it seems to me that the problem is more acute and apparently more serious in Sweden then in other countries.

Not true. You should check out oddsocks thread about discrimination in Sweden. The study in that thread showed that discirimination was alive and well in Sweden but it had lower levels then other countries in Europe. There were also more rules and structures against discrimination in Sweden and you can turn to DO which most countries don`t offer.
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Elf_Moon
post 6.Feb.2013, 01:22 PM
Post #37
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 5.Sep.2012

This isn't an usual practice. It happens all over the world.

I know this sounds awful but that's the way it is. In england, an office of mostly English people will likely choose an English person because they are more comfortable with the fact that this person will likely settle in and match the cultural identity of the other workers.

It works the other way as well. I worked in a city once where the building next door (a call centre for a bank I think I was told) would only hire Asian workers. Everyday thousands would flood out of this building and I could barely see a white face amongst them. Clearly there is discrimination going on there but that's not my point.

My point is that offices will typically hire someone they feel would fit the cultural mould. I don't think there is anything wrong with that to be honest. Though I understand that it does make it difficult for others to find work.

I've noticed that I usually don't get the job if my interviewer is Female, I --always-- get the job if the interviewer is Male (and no, I'm not doing anything I shouldn't be doing before anyone makes a crude joke.) Is that sexism (or some strange manifestation of female rivalry)? Probably. Am I upset about it, sure I am (because most recruiters are female -.-) but I'm not about to write a news story about it.
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Yorkshireman
post 6.Feb.2013, 01:26 PM
Post #38
Joined: 22.Nov.2011

According to SCB data for 2011-2012:

2011 (in thousands)
In work, born in Sweden = 3842,9
In Work, born outside of Sweden = 679,4

2012 (in thousands)
In work, born in Sweden = 3828,1
In Work, born outside of Sweden = 704,1

This shows a change where those in work that were born in Sweden reduced by 14.800 where-as during the same period, the number of people that were in work that were born outside of Sweden increased by 24.700

Maybe those born inside Sweden have grounds to whine? wink.gif
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oddsock
post 6.Feb.2013, 01:31 PM
Post #39
Joined: 19.Dec.2008

QUOTE (Migga @ 6.Feb.2013, 12:35 PM) *
Not true. You should check out oddsocks thread about discrimination in Sweden. The study in that thread showed that discirimination was alive and well in Sweden but it had low ... (show full quote)

No, it didn't say that. It said that Sweden had similar levels to Spain and Italy.

No other countries were mentioned.

Stop twisting things.
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SergioSver
post 6.Feb.2013, 02:21 PM
Post #40
Joined: 8.Nov.2011

QUOTE
QUOTE (SergioSver @ 6.Feb.2013, 08:11 AM) *
Or take Emergency Medical Service, what a great idea it would be to allow them to decide who should be treated or who should not? Nurses after all can dislike various things, ... (show full quote)

Hmmmm ...nice try, but you are mixing up between employer and employees ...Employees must do what the Employer wants.

So if a manager of EMS says to the employees if you do not like patient's height, hair-dress or color of his shirt, you can leave him or her dying there and do not bother to save him, then it should be considered a normal practice?

To be honest, I am surprised to see so many times the assertion that an employer has the right to decide this or that.

What if an employer wants to cut on the safety regulations or remove them all together as it would make his products/ services cheaper?

What if he thinks that an employee should work 18 or 20 hours a day?

What if he is convinced that a child labor should be employed as he thinks that children have nimbler fingers and more dexterous? Should he be allowed to do this?

Does not the government have a say in what he can and can not do and rightly so?
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SergioSver
post 6.Feb.2013, 02:40 PM
Post #41
Joined: 8.Nov.2011

QUOTE
I know this sounds awful but that's the way it is. In england, an office of mostly English people will likely choose an English person because they are more comfortable with the fact that this person will likely settle in and match the cultural identity of the other workers.

None says that it does not happen in other countries.

As we know, a suicide bomber can explode himself in the street of Stockholm, people can be kidnapped and there can be even some shoot out between some gangs.

Does it mean that it would be right to state that Stockholm, where all these acts can happen is just as safe as Kabul, where the above mentioned occurrences happen on a daily basis?

Or the scope and character of the problem should be taken into account?

Again these are the findings of the study on the importance of foreign names for Canada:

"In applications for skilled jobs, applicants with foreign names have a call back rates of 79 percent while applicants
with English names have call back rate of 80.5 percent...but application for low skilled jobs showed that call back rates for applicants with English names is 3.4 percent higher than the call back rates for applicants with foreign names"

Now this is the result from the same study for Sweden:

"Applications for skilled-jobs showed that applicants with Swedish names have a call back rate of 123 percent while applicants with foreign names have a call back rate of 62.2 percent. This result concur with that of Bursell... [he] estimated that applicants with foreign names have a call back rate of 4.3 percent while applicants with Swedish names have a call back rate of 20.8 percent."

http://kau.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:404608/FULLTEXT02
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Migga
post 6.Feb.2013, 02:43 PM
Post #42
Joined: 26.Jul.2011

QUOTE (oddsock @ 6.Feb.2013, 01:31 PM) *
No, it didn't say that. It said that Sweden had similar levels to Spain and Italy.. No other countries were mentioned.. Stop twisting things.

Similar levels but lower yes.
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John.Smith
post 6.Feb.2013, 02:43 PM
Post #43
Location: Sweden
Joined: 12.Sep.2011

If you do not have a special skill set that is in demand and your ability and experience is on the same level of Swedish people also seeking the job... who do you think will get the job?
It is a fact of life...

I think to call that discrimination is the easy way out. A lot of recruitment here is done via personal contacts and networking. The biggest advantage you can give yourself in job seeking here is to learn the language ... and not just to SFI levels.

You are not being rejected because of your name, you are being rejected because there are Swedish applicants with the same competences and skills and who have both English and Swedish languages... They are a better fit for the company and will take less investment to become productive...
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Yorkshireman
post 6.Feb.2013, 02:49 PM
Post #44
Joined: 22.Nov.2011

QUOTE (SergioSver @ 6.Feb.2013, 02:21 PM) *
So if a manager of EMS says to the employees if you do not like patient's height, hair-dress or color of his shirt, you can leave him or her dying there and do not bother ... (show full quote)

A Manager is an employee that is there to do the bidding of the company. They can choose not to. But most people by nature are selfish and look out ultimately for themselves!

QUOTE (SergioSver @ 6.Feb.2013, 02:21 PM) *
What if an employer wants to cut on the safety regulations or remove them all together as it would make his products/ services cheaper?

That does happen, all too often unfortunately, and there is legislation around health and safty that makes it an employers responsibility and have to pay penalties.

QUOTE (SergioSver @ 6.Feb.2013, 02:21 PM) *
What if he thinks that an employee should work 18 or 20 hours a day?

Happens very often, even in Sweden.

QUOTE (SergioSver @ 6.Feb.2013, 02:21 PM) *
What if he is convinced that a child labor should be employed as he thinks that children have nimbler fingers and more dexterous? Should he be allowed to do this?

Happens outside of Sweden... However, to be caught doing this is very bad publicity for a company and can effect sales->Profit. So it isn't done (in public anyway). THe majority of businesses would in many cases like every piece of legislation that effects their profitability removed if possible biggrin.gif ...I truely hope you dont really have this naive view of business? ohmy.gif ...There are Swedish and other EU companies that take advantage of child/slave-like labour, and the means to avoid direct linkage is that it is often done via sub-contractors or sub-contractors-of-sub-contractors throughout asia ...which gives them plausible-deniability.

QUOTE (SergioSver @ 6.Feb.2013, 02:21 PM) *
Does not the government have a say in what he can and can not do and rightly so?

There already are anti-descrimination laws... I doubt there are any companies in Sweden that would accept the Government telling it exactly who should have the job... Jeez, just look at the fight that has been going on about equality in the Board!

If all else fails and you are looking for a job, just try the Kommuns and Landsting ...there is an equality (and immigrant) pressure ongoing ...currently across Sweden in Landsting and Kommuns the workforce is 80% Women!... as someone once said, if you can speak Swedish, Male with a foreign sounding name ...the job is as good as Yours! wink.gif
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Mo
post 6.Feb.2013, 02:50 PM
Post #45
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

QUOTE (Yorkshireman @ 6.Feb.2013, 01:26 PM) *
According to SCB data for 2011-2012:2011 (in thousands)In work, born in Sweden = 3842,9In Work, born outside of Sweden = 679,42012 (in thousands)In work, born in Sweden = 3828 ... (show full quote)


But we also need the data for numbers in these categories of working age, many Swedish 40 talisterna retiring at the moment which might explain the decline in number of Swedes employed, but nonetheless it is encouraging that more people born outside of Sweden are in work
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