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Ministers argue girls' right to sex ed

Peter Vinthagen Simpson · 31 May 2009, 10:46

Published: 31 May 2009 10:46 GMT+02:00

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"All pupils, including immigrant girls, have the right to swimming lessons and to take part in physical and sexual education classes," Björklund and Sabuni argue in an opinion article in Dagens Nyheter on Sunday.

Liberal party leader and education minister, Jan Björklund, and integration minister, Nyamko Sabuni, write that the right to exemptions from these classes will be removed in a new legislative proposal to be circulated for consideration during the summer.

The ministers underline that immigration is beneficial to Sweden while they point out that in Sweden all children have the right to the knowledge offered by the schools, "regardless of whether the parents like it or not."

Björklund and Sabuni argue that far too many pupils, especially girls, in Sweden currently have their schooling "curtailed" by families with strong "honour traditions."

They point out that in many such families the freedom of women is often seen as a threat to the family.

"The will of the girls is often subordinated to what is considered to be the best interests of the family; the men's, or the group's, "honour" based on the girl's sexual behaviour."

This situation can result in girls being denied the right to participate in physical and sexual education classes, something the ministers hope the new law will put a stop to.

Björklund and Sabuni base their arguments on a recent survey of school pupils in Stockholm.

The survey, by researchers at Stockholm University, indicates that 10 percent of pupils in the city's schools regularly avoid participating in the subjects and school outings.

The survey shows that among the girls within this group, many replied that they could not participate because it would be contrary to their family's religion or culture.

The ministers refer to a further study conducted by Anders Lange and the Living History Forum that indicates that almost 25 percent of teachers been asked for an exemption from physical education or swimming classes, and 14 percent from sexual education classes.

Björklund and Sabuni argue that the figures indicate that the problem with "honour culture oppression" could be greater than previously apparent.

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"Taken to its extreme the oppression is a direct threat to the child's life, but even if it does not go to such drastic lengths it almost always violates the child's fundamental rights."

The right to seek exemption from certain school subjects dates back to 1950 when the Swedish school curriculum still taught Christianity. Catholic and Jewish children were then able to be exempt from the classes and could attend equivalent classes organized by their own faith groups.

The right to seek exemption with reference to specific circumstances in the home was enshrined in the school laws passed in 1962 and then again in 1985.

The new law will limit this possibility to only very exceptional cases but will allow for classes to be organized to avoid "sensitive situations", thus permitting girls and boys to be educated separately.

Peter Vinthagen Simpson (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

13:05 May 31, 2009 by Eurostan
some immigrant parents can not digest original swedish culture. but they want to live in sweden.

schools must work irrespective of religion and culture .

there is no ecceptions based on religion.if you give that much importance to religion you are free to back to your country no one stopping you.

multi cultural society is big nonsence in sweden.
13:31 May 31, 2009 by Faunaman
multi cultural society=ghettos=social violence
13:32 May 31, 2009 by Nemesis
If I move to another country, I am expected to follow the rules and culture of that country.

Exceptions such as this should be removed.

Parents who object, I would suggest having them visit a psychiatrist. That would cure the problem quickly. Either that or they can leave the country and go elsewhere.

I went to school in Northern Ireland at a catholic school. We were taught nothing about sex and I can assure you the people I was at school with are very screwed up when it comes to dating. Actually they are screwed up about everything.
14:24 May 31, 2009 by Black Pharoah
Faunaman wrote:

multi cultural society=ghettos=social violence

"Whites" mutant inbred albinos are at "0" population growth, dont blame black people for you innate deficiency at reproducing.

Their are over 3 billion black people in the world,,,,400 million "whites", if that.

Your anger should not be aimed at Black people yet with god.
14:45 May 31, 2009 by MBELTAGY
Why do you want to enforce immigrants to do something against their traditionals or religion? You will not accept this situation for your children if you travel to another country with different traditionals and religion.

If a Swedish family traveled to an Arabic islamic country, Is it will accepted for them that their children have classes about Islam ?!!

I think you should review your opinions and try to think what if you are those people.

I think Sweden to still an advanced country, it should continue to respect the variation of the different people.
14:53 May 31, 2009 by Playmaker
where was there talk of black and white? And are you proud you reproduce like bunnies because last time i looked all of your countries are in bad shape. and most of the people just want to live in countries in the west. god is not helping your race any by overproducing with out the food to feed you.

I think this new law is great. it forces the muslim population to mix with the rest of the world. lets face it, it say immigrants but i dont think any Americans, Thai, Finnish, or anyone else has a problem with this. It is only Muslims who have "honor" laws. And i wonder for people of say i am racist WHAT RACE IS ISLAM? Freedom of Speech is worth fighting for!
14:56 May 31, 2009 by Omaro
They are trying to find a solution to their failure in integration but they don`t` know how.
15:00 May 31, 2009 by John Doe
@MBELTAGY: If I don't like it there I don't go there. If I don't like those "traditions" and don't want to respect/obey them I don't go there. Why the f#$k are ppl like you coming here and want to have it their way? And start bitching around that they are facing racism...

The law should be one for everyone, regardless of religion, color and other crap.
15:09 May 31, 2009 by powerofknowledge
Comments about "Western or Swedish Culture" the immigrants should follow everything without "Thinking" about it , whether its right or not !??.

I came from wat we called "3rd" world we have Christians Jewish and some other minorities , they have the rights to not to take Islamic lessons, INSTEAD, they have thier own teachers that travel long ditance to give them lessons and take exams in thier religions??!!! YES in that wat we call "3d world"

Hamza Yusuf Hanson american converted to Islam said something realy intelligent and without prejuidice " Take the Best from the West and Leave the Rest"

NOT Everything in the west is good in my work (University) i have many (women ) friends that have children without Father,, they even hate those men coz they left them (they just slept (use or u can say Abuse) them) then searchinig for else escapinig from responsibility (IS This is the Western Culture??) she told me that about 50 000 women in only Swed have same problem ??
15:14 May 31, 2009 by Eurostan
ban all kind of religious symbols and dressing in all schools just like france. no ecceptions for any religion.

who is the guy who allowed ecceptions based on religion.
15:21 May 31, 2009 by Kaethar
He didn't even mention black people. You are the most obvious case of an inferiority complex I've seen so far. Get over yourself.

Why would you break the law in the name of religion or tradition? We don't care that female gender mutilation is a part of some cultures. It is illegal here. You want to live here - follow our rules.

Are you kidding? Give me one example. When non-muslim women travel to Iran or Saudi Arabia they DO put on the headscarves or abayas. Some try to break the law by drinking but they've been arrested, and rightly so.

... In Sweden it is written in law that all schools must teach about all religions. Do you know something I don't? If an Islamic private school is not teaching their kids about other religions they are breaking the law...

When I lived in Iraq I, as a Westerner, was taught about Iraqi culture (which included Islam) in school. This was part of the curriculum even in an international school. What precisely is the problem?

If I were those people I would get out of Sweden if I could not follow her laws. I would also stop demanding exceptions should be made for me since I realise how arrogant it sounds. But I find that this is ultimately the problem with religious people - there is no compromise on their part because they think what they believe is the absolute truth. Non-religious people integrate easily in Sweden. It's the religious people that's the problem. You need to ask yourself if these people really belong here.

Wrong. I know this is how it is in the Islamic world. Religious minorities live separately to the others with their own laws. This is not an ideal model to follow, which should be obvious to you given the ethnic and religious tensions in much of the Islamic world.

One law for all. This is what has made Sweden an advanced and progressive country. Changing this in the name of "respecting variation" will lead Sweden backwards, not forwards.
15:40 May 31, 2009 by powerofknowledge
Hamza Yusuf Hanson american converted to Islam said something realy intelligent and without prejuidice " Take the Best from the West and Leave the Rest" NOT Everything in the west is good in my work (University) i have many (women ) friends that have children without Father,, they even hate those men coz they left them (they just slept (use or u can say Abuse) them) then searchinig for else escapinig from responsibility (IS This is the Western Culture??) she told me that about 50 000 women in only Swed have same problem ?? OK i agree NOT everything in our culture or in 3rd countries is right but her also not everything right , we should respect each Otherwise it will be a forest and those (we allways blame)from 3rd world will be better than us
15:46 May 31, 2009 by mankoosh
I feel obligated to add a comment to this mess..

I am a muslim and I do live here in Sweden.. and I come from a so called 3rd world country.. where 30% of the population are Christians.. and I can assure you that a lot of arabs regardless of their religion have this gender and honor issues.. it has NOTHING to do with being a muslim.. it has to do with tradition.. I was lucky to be raised by very open minded parents.. but I had muslim and christian freinds who were not as lucky..

my fear towards these new rules about sex ed and swimming is those close minded parents would start home-schooling their children .. which would lead to even more complications in this sociaty..

even where I come from vailed girls did not take swimming classes when we had male teachers.

I fear that these rules will isoltae an already isolated part of the sociaty into a deeper hole.

15:47 May 31, 2009 by khokan
Some people wants to say...If you go any arab country have to wear veil .. have to take arabian food .. have to listen arabian music..must..must..no option..why you came here? who brought you here?No way..u have to digest it. Either leave this country or die or stay away from us.Why??? Try to find a solution to get rid of this problem ...express your opinion or idea..not by hated word or nonsense theory.
15:51 May 31, 2009 by mankoosh
and the strange comments that I have read above are proof of how pregidist everyone is. We all have our pre-opinions about other beings around us.. and no matter how open minded and tollerent we pretend to be deep down we all have our own picture of other cultures and religions..

It fills me with anger when I hear these types of comments. I'm the proof that not all people from that region have the same opinion, but since I have moved here to Sweden I have recieved the looks and the comments! Even though I am not religious in any way.. am not vailed.. and do not speak English with any tracable accent.. just the colour of my skin that points out that I'm middle-eastern is all it takes!I haven't even moved here to run away from my home country! At first every time I recieved those looks I wanted to scream saying that I'm not like the rest.. I'm different.. but realised that makes me just as pregedist as the rest of these people are.
15:52 May 31, 2009 by swedeninsweden
Female Mutilation Circumcetionis a African Tribal Tradition not related to a religion as some ignorants think, and its considered as has negative effects..but they still do it in some african countries..

not like the Man Circumcision which is a Jewish/ Islamic tradition, which proved to have many advantages like decreasinig risk for AIDS, and some other STDs, decreasinig penis cancer..etc.

"50 000 women " yes may be i heard recentely about (# the Baby Box #) in Czech/ Poland gogle it ull see horrible things, if u r young mother and dont want you child throw it there the hospital will take it,, im wondering what is the sin of that little baby
15:57 May 31, 2009 by Bender B Rodriquez
Lol, so you mean that less that half of Europe's population are white? There are no white people in US/Canada or Russia?
16:16 May 31, 2009 by maakm
Lets take it like this.

Muslims pray five times a day and in their school Islamic studies are necessary.And if they impose this to all the children regardless of their background then how do u feel.Would like your children to pray with other Muslim students.I don't think so.

It is the same think.In Muslims sexual education in school is bad for Muslim children as praying of your child is bad for your children with other Muslim students.In Muslim sexual education is given by the Father to the Boy and by the mother to the girl.

It is only the Parents who know what is better for their children.Then who the hell these Jan Björklund and Nyamko Sabuni are to impose this.
16:17 May 31, 2009 by Janie
Is home schooling legal in Sweden? I thought I read on this site that it's not.

Anyway, as far as the physical activity classes go, I think that the kids, whether muslim or otherwise, should have a say in whether they participate or not. Thank god I am not a schoolchild, I would certainly not enjoy being forced to participate in swimming classes. Perhaps the girls, even the non-muslims, don't really want to be made to parade around in public in a swimming costume. It always amazes me how schools are actually allowed to force kids to swim.
16:18 May 31, 2009 by Nutcracker
powerofknowledge: You speak approvingly of Hamza Yusuf (Hanson), a convert to Islam. In his speech "Jihad Is the Only Way" to the ICNA, a front for the Al-Qaeda-allied Jama'at-islami movement in Pakistan, Hamza said: "I became a Moslem because I do not believe in the false gods of this American society, whether they call them Jesus or Democracy or the Bill of Rights, or any other element of this American society...there should be no voting or debates...we have no room for ayes or nays."
16:25 May 31, 2009 by KHILLOW
why do u afraid ?

If any Muslim family teaches their girls the correct values of Islam, and discuss these issus with open mind with them, there will not be any problem.

If the Muslim girls understand and respects the difference of the culture and the values, she can easly participate on those classes, as long as girls and boys can do it separately, as mentioned above by the report.
16:26 May 31, 2009 by Bender B Rodriquez
Did you feel comfortable about being forced to learn maths or geography?
16:42 May 31, 2009 by Janie
How is that similar? Kids aren't forced to strip off and walk around practically in their underwear during maths or geography.
16:55 May 31, 2009 by peropaco
If sexual education is part of the Swedish curriculum then by all means every student living in Sweden without exception should fall under the same learning process.
16:56 May 31, 2009 by vladd777
I came to Sweden in 1986 as an immigrant because I married a Swede.

I have become a Swedish citizen and try to abide by the laws of the land.

Before emigrating one needs to research what the country stands for and be prepared to accept what is offered to a greater degree.

Democracy is the political policy and if one decides to remain in Sweden he/she should be prepared to accept this.

If for whatever reasons one cannot/will not accept this fact then perhaps it is wiser to move home or to some other country that is more like-minded.

In Sweden gender is not an issue and should not be allowed to become one. Life is complicated enough as it is.
17:07 May 31, 2009 by peropaco
Interesting survey..

17:13 May 31, 2009 by Puffin
I think that learning to swim is only sensible in a country like Sweden where there are so many lakes and rivers as well as the coast - I read somewhere that immigrant children are overrepresented in the drowning statistics.

It is a national curriculum goal that children should be able to swim at least 200m by year 5 and at least 50m backstroke - so many children are disadvantaged.

However I do disagree with the hard tone used by some Ministers that prefers to threaten rather than persuade
17:14 May 31, 2009 by Miss Kitten
So, do these immigrant families have any qualms at all about their sons taking sex ed and swimming classes?
17:16 May 31, 2009 by Puffin
But of course France did not ban all religious symbols did they??? Crucifixes on chains were exempted from the law after pressure from the Catholic church - so the law did not promote equality - in fact in many respects it has had the opposite effect.
18:09 May 31, 2009 by Janie
What happens if a child is advised by a doctor not to swim for medical reasons, eg chronic ear infections or a skin problem?
18:11 May 31, 2009 by Mbix
When in rome do as the romans do. the children should follow whatever rules at their schools. I dont like the idea of having parents forcing their kids on what they can do at school. Let the kids do whatever subjects they like at school.
18:51 May 31, 2009 by freethinker
The subject of sex education in Swede schools is not about forcing a relious view on people. Many of the posts here imply this.

It is "not" racist for Swedes to say " if you can't handle life here go back to whenst ye came"
19:16 May 31, 2009 by bocale1
I have been always against racism and tolerant to diversity amongst people but, honestly, I do not follow the arguments against this proposal. If you want to live in a country, you should follow its rules and laws. Nobody is forced to move to Sweden. If a Muslim family thinks that the Swedish attitude about sex and genre relationships is not appropriate for them, they can move away. I do not understand why to create this discrimination amongst children or have different studying path based on religion. This would be discrimination. Comments like Swedes have wrong family values etc... are also racists. I believe that you do not need to be white and blond to be racist and a strong racism attitude is growing now within the ethnic minorities that live here expecting to impose their own rules to the rest of the country. All in all, keep religion out of school, keep Sweden a land of personal freedom and give anybody the opportunity to grow free and open minded!
20:11 May 31, 2009 by Alma
Great minds of democracy see freedom in restricting other people's rights to choose. How absurd!!!

Swedish values of today, were not the same as just a few decades ago,. It is fashistic to make other people adhere to current society trands and highly undemocratic.
20:21 May 31, 2009 by bolababu
If children cannot be taught without parental influence to obey the laws of an elementary school, how then will they obey societal laws as adults? This is all just crazy, Nyako Sabuni was a refugee herself so she knows what she is talking about and I don't believe that this has got anything to do with prejudice. This is how the problems in Rosengard and other immigrant areas started, exempting immigrant children from certain laws in the name of religion or culture.

As a child in Africa, i was taught in elementary school to "act as a Roman if i went to Rome". Unfortunately, people who say immigrants should leave if they cannot obey the laws of the land are somewhat justified.
20:59 May 31, 2009 by Alma
With all due respect, I can not see African education as a model one should strive to implement.

Growing up in very diverse religous environment, I was thought to RESPECT differences. People of different religous and ethinc backgrounds should not be forced to renounce their religious upbringing.

And it is quite redicilous to talk here about Rosengord muslims, as if all muslims in Sweden live in Rosengord, or as if all other non muslim Swedes are for this law. I happen to have a very good religious christian friend who is against sexual education in schools as well. Needless to say, she is one of the nicest law abiding people.

Sweden is not third world country it is demcoracy at its highest and noone should be forced to make choices which are against their personal beliefs.
21:03 May 31, 2009 by 7
medical reasons tend to supersede other "normal" requirements e.g. if a child was paralyzed it would be rather silly to chuck 'im in the deep end.

a school curriculum is a school curriculum. if there's a protest against a part of the prescribed curriculum there's a need to present the protest. religion or low self esteem should be valid "opt out" passes.
21:11 May 31, 2009 by byke
Sweden is walking a very dangerous path which goes against the fundamental basic rights it signed in the human rights treaty.

While I am a white european with no religion, I understand the needs of the right of the individual and should not be free allowed to ones own cultural identity
21:13 May 31, 2009 by 7
where are you from so we can decide whether your education is a model we should strive to implement?

and the "when in rome" thingy isn't an "african education" but a european proverb. so, guessing from the example, one should not strive to implement the education model from where ever you're from (so where was it?)

no is requiring that. only that children educated in the swedish society adhere to the accepted curriculum prescribed for all children.

within a democracy the members agree to adhere to the democratically decided rules, regulations and laws. those who take it upon themselves to break those rules, regulations and laws should answer to the democratically elected legislative punitive measures.
21:18 May 31, 2009 by bocale1
@Alma, "great minds of democracy see freedom in restricting other people's rights to choose. How absurd!!!"... and what about the freedom of choices of those children who are exempted from those lessons not for their willingness but just following the religious principles of their families? or do you think that children have no rights? and what about women? should they be left free of choosing? or should be the religion of their family clans that decides on their behalf? Sorry, this is not the type of freedom that Sweden needs to have now! And if immigration means reducing the rights of individuals and implement in our Euro countries shari'as of whatever type, well, then I hope that this country will have the strength to say NO.
21:30 May 31, 2009 by Xzion
knowledge and sex education is right , and schools must educate childeren s, few say that it is un-Islamic but i can prove that they are wrong.

Cultures has certain problems and religions especially Islam try to eliminate this naive kind of thinking, school can negotiate about teaching method, but sex education is right of every man and women.

all we should work on trust development, and religion is good tool to gain trust because religion always talk about human rights & sustainable development, we can pick good and bad of culture with instruments of religion.
22:07 May 31, 2009 by insect
While you are all arguing about these I am already thinking of a great business idea during this financial crisis.

I will invent a hijab-like swimming costume and at least help to kill half of this debate.

It is easier to follow the saying "If you can't beat em, join em"
22:19 May 31, 2009 by Kaethar
What on earth are you rambling on about? No, leaving pregnant women is not a part of Western culture. But it happens. Just as it happens in the Islamic world. Are you really that blind?

Did I say it was a religious thing? Female circumcision is recommended in Islam but not FGM which is a cultural practice. They're two different procedures with different outcomes (I'll not go into detail) Point of the matter is that people claim it should be allowed because it's a part of their TRADITIONS and/or religion. But it is ILLEGAL here.

No it hasn't. They've found correlations but nothing that proves causality. Denmark is actually thinking about banning it and Sweden is sure to follow.

Not really a problem since I don't live in an Islamic country anymore. Or are you saying you wouldn't mind me turning up to an Iraqi school wearing a bikini and drinking beer? Or a more serious example: Smoking weed, since that's a part of Rastafari religious practice. Would you allow it to "respect differences."

If that's what you believe you should be living in an Islamic country. Simply put: You should be living in a country whose values match your own. Simple as that.

Who the hell are anyone to impose anything? Who cares whether the law states you shouldn't kill people (you can always twist the Quran's meaning to support killing).

The problem when you put religious law over man-made law is that children loose respect for authority (and we can see the effects of this clearly in Sweden).

This is YOUR opinion. YOU are not above the law. Don't like it - you have the freedom to move.

Your arrogant attitude is what pisses me off.

I was forced to swim even though I didn't want to. I'm glad for it today though. It's a safety issue. As has been said, those of foreign-descent in Sweden are overrepresented in drowning statistics.

People of foreign ethnic and religious backgrounds should not be above the law.

It can be my personal belief that killing is good. Anything can be a personal belief. Laws reflect the majority views of the people. I can tell you're from somewhere in the Islamic world. I'll ask you this... you may believe in "respecting diversity" but does having separate laws for different religious groups and therefore exclusion of some ethnic groups from the mainstream lead to trouble or success? I'd think really hard about this if I were you. Having lived in the Islamic world I know the true answer to this, so no lying please.


22:32 May 31, 2009 by bolababu
@Insect, ..someone already thought about that and for your info, it is selling in stores right now.

@Alma, ..the quoted proverb wasn't in the African educational curriculum, I just wanted you to notice that they already teach us as young children that we owe it to our countries of origin to also obey laws of our host countries when we travel. The laws banning any kind of exemption isn't going to be decided by the government even if they proposed it, I am sure though that it will be approved as majority of Swedes and "people living in Sweden" will favour it. Besides, I remember being rebellious as a teenager because I wasn't allowed by my family and religion to do most of the things I wanted to do as a child, children are not just the responsibility of the parent but the entire society else parents on welfare should also be responsible for the upkeep of their children without financial aid from the government.
22:43 May 31, 2009 by Alma
While I highly stand behind obeying laws of country you live in, I also agree that people should act within the law system of the country to voice their opinion, and not be juged for doing so. Promoting, monkey see monkey do concept is mind blowing at least...
22:52 May 31, 2009 by powerofknowledge
Leavining Pregnanet womwen and alon mothers (Ensam Mamma) is an ugly part of the Western Culture (Unfotunately) and 50 000 alone mothers in 9 million Sweden is very very big number compared to other countries, if u count the numbers of elder people..etc

(The Baby Box ) is invented by Western Culture (Unfotunately) ok not everything wrong but id say from this side,, and keep Polite Speech here,, do u understand everyone can Speack sharp words BUT not everyone can think??!!
23:00 May 31, 2009 by Kooritze
Key words in this article: Removes the RIGHT to exemption from......

A right to choose is a fundamental part of freedom. It seems ok to islamaphobes and immigrant bashers that these RIGHTS are taken away when it does not affect YOU. If and when in the future your rights are violated and you are forced to conform to political ideology of how things should be then I guarantee people will get rattled.

We are not cattle or sheep just going along with the flow.......humans can think and choose.....and in countries proclaiming freedom of it,s people......the right to choose should remain....on all and not just on this topic.
23:01 May 31, 2009 by Craptastical
I hope you're including yourself in your last sentence, because your logic is completely flawed and full of holes.

Let's assume that your 50K number of single mothers is accurate (I would like to see where you got that number from). Since when do you think that being a single mom is primarily related to whether a person has sex ed courses or not? Have you considered the fact that most are single mothers due to failed relationships?

I find it amusing that you're more than willing to criticize western culture prior to having a true understanding of it.

*Thinks it's time for powerofknowledge to down a Powerofknowledge Bar* Beefcake! BEEFCAKE!
23:07 May 31, 2009 by peropaco
It always amaze me how people move to another country and then try to change the laws and custom of their host country. If they dont agree with the sexual education teaching well, there are lots of countries they can move that can accomodate their desire. I would like to open a pub in Saudi Arabia,. do you think i could petition to government to allow that? No, of course not
23:08 May 31, 2009 by swedeninsweden
still teachinig childdren sex is very silly bad idea

Kooritze i agree "removinig the right to choose" is non-democratic idea,

then we shouldnt we teach them when they become Adults and have the right to choose ,,,

In stead of teaching " A Child" how to make intercourse ??!! it is really a

" CONTRADICTION " in thier idea , you (obligate) a child to educate sex,
23:33 May 31, 2009 by 7
perfect example of an irrelevant, hate-mongering ignorant response. moderators?
23:48 May 31, 2009 by Coalbanks
Meanwhile in the progessively Conservative province of Alberta, Canada a new law is being passed to allow parents of children in public schools to remove their children from classes dealing with sex education/sexual diversity or EVOLUTION! Teachers may be brought before a Human Rights tribunal if they violate the student's rights to not be taught either of these subjects. Casual mention of these subjects might also have the same results. These topics may be discussed in other courses ie Biology, Geography, but the consequences for the teachers are not clear.
00:03 June 1, 2009 by bolababu
I do not see anyone's rights being violated here as these laws as at when passed are decided by leaders democratically elected by the majority of the people living in Sweden and not just ethnic Swedes. In my opinion, the children's rights are actually being violated if they have to miss out on any kind of education, it is their birth-right to learn and be equiped to face life responsibly as adults.

These laws were not proposed to target any particular group of people but it was concieved in the best interest of the children regardless of parental influence.

If parents abuse their children under religious pretext, the government has the power to protect them and even take them away from their parents, don't they?

Lets stop blabbing about people's rights and needs and focus on the good intentions of this "proposal".
00:21 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
OK let me pose this question to you since the whole discussion seems to have headed in this direction anyway (no surprise).

Lets say we have large numbers of the immigrant population who aren't interested in integrating into Swedish culture, and have no interest in adapting to it even without integrating.

On the other side, you have the Swedes who see this and criticize it. While they may recognize that it is happening that way, they are under absolutely no obligation to respect you for rejecting their social norms and laws.

This IMHO is the problem. We're in the Swede's country. The Swede's culture. The Swede's laws. Let me put this another way... If you ask someone to live in their home with them and you do so, do you all of a sudden reject their customs because they don't match yours even though it's not your house and you were the one who asked to live there?

This is the way that I look at living in Sweden... Swedes have allowed me to live here, and even though I may not agree with everything Swedes do I certainly respect it and I do my best not to rock their boat. It's worked pretty well for me (save for the ID fiasco).
02:11 June 1, 2009 by Nayya
"Sweden is walking a very dangerous path which goes against the fundamental basic rights it signed in the human rights treaty."

I wayyyyyyyyyyyyy do NOT agree with you.. this law is nothing agaisnt the fundamental basic rights.. if anything it's for it. We're having the same issues in Canada atm where immigrants come here and want to change the country's laws to fit their religious and cultural beliefs.. If you move to another country you must live according to their culture and beliefs.. if that's not in your plan.. why even move there to start with?
05:10 June 1, 2009 by khokan
You want to know the outcome of swimming classes and Sex education:---

"Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe - twice as many as "runner up" the UK, a new study shows"


Sweden has the highest gold medal holder in Olympic of reported swimming in Europe - twice as many as "runner up" the UK, a new study shows...is it true????????????????
07:11 June 1, 2009 by Uncle
MBELTAGY - surprise!!! Foreigners in Dubai cannot drink alcohol, but with special allowences depending on the income. Women in Iran have to be covered even if they are not Muslim, children of foreigners ARE subjected to studies of Islam in almost all muslim countries unless they study in a separate diplomatic compound! In Ramaddan there are crazy restrictions on foreigners.

They demand from you to be a Roman in Rome, so why would you let them be whatever they want wherever they are?
07:41 June 1, 2009 by Puffin
Moderator hat

This thread seems to be drifting off topic - posters are advised to stick to the topic or start a new thread if they want to discuss something else or other aspects of immigration

Posts that are offensive will be removed


08:17 June 1, 2009 by aismail
it is simple to say that if immigrants don't want to follow they should leave the country (this is commented by many people).I say why don't you ask nato and american forces to get off from iraq and afganistan. what is terrorism nothing but an english world, was it terrorist that made nuclear weapons, world war I and II, especially two nuclear attacks on japan?

men and women are equal so why don't they give birth to babies one after other i say islam ask for balamce and respect for women, you ask for freedom of every thing why don't you jump to sun or left the universe (actually when you forget your creator same time you foret your limits)
08:40 June 1, 2009 by DidiE
Two points that actually are related.

1. To date, there are only a very few studies exist that demonstrate a significant difference in drowning risks for children who have had swimming lessons, versus those who have not, and these studies all have methodological flaws. Yeah, you would think there was more data on this subject, but there isn't. If Sweden decides to really enforce swimming lessons, then I hope those of us who are strongly interested in drowning prevention can be successful this time in our push to do follow up studies. On the other hand, lacking firm evidence about the efficacy of swimming lessons, this is probably not the best one to push if you're wanting to integrate Muslim immigrants into Swedish education. The Minister in Charge should have done her homework on this one (although I do admire her for tackling this issue. She's about the only Moderate I like!)

2. Parents often have wishes that go against society's regulations- see the many parents who want to opt out of infant immunisations, for example. Whether Sweden wishes to allow a liberal opt-out policy or not, it is quite likely that parents who absolutely cannot tolerate their daughters receiving sex ed or swimming will find a way around these classes. Absences, repeated ones, due to illness, forming friskola, sending daughters out of the country, are all possible solutions. As overall education is one of the most important factors in ensuring the well being of women, it seems that a universal insistence that girls from devout Muslim families HAVE to take these two courses would just end up with families deciding to heck with the whole school system, which in turn will impact the girls for life. I'd be more sanguine about it all- let em opt out, and rest assured that is far more likely that the math(s), the Swedish language courses, and the work-study will end up having the best impact on these young women's overall well being in Sweden.
08:50 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
I'm not going to address most of your response because it is irrelevant when it comes to respecting Swedish law and Swedish culture.

What I will ask you is why there is the feeling that Sweden needs to bend to your every need when it was you who asked to come here, even if you asked out of desperation and a real need (refugee status/asylum)? What is it that Sweden owes you? Why does Sweden owe you anything?
08:50 June 1, 2009 by byke
/////////// Convention on the Rights of the Child ///////////


Pay close attention to article #2
08:58 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
This can be taken any number of ways.

It can be interpreted as both "respect the beliefs of the family so as not to discriminate based on their beliefs" etc., and also "do not give preferential treatment to anyone".

The problem in the interpretation is that it depends on what you think is correct. One person may say (in this particular case) "my beliefs don't agree with the sex ed and swimming classes" while another will say "everyone must go through these courses no matter what they believe, no exceptions and no preferential treatment because it is for the benefit of the child".
10:12 June 1, 2009 by Random
In Sweden, and alot of other countries, the children and girls have certain rights, and in this cast they are addressing the sex education. It is wrong to not give this information to a child...it is the basic right of children here, so it should be enforced.

Why do people always turn these things into a muslim/sweden battle??

I think it is fair (my opinion) as it is a basic right for children which you cannot take from them. Ultimately this is changing that innocent childs views of what is right and wrong!!
10:52 June 1, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
What I think some people don't seem to get is that this is not about Sweden's schools giving children shagging lessons, or providing them with surefire fellatio/cunnilingus techniques.

It's mainly about teaching them about the biological reproductive process and "family planning". Yes, this will include information about contraception, but I'd have thought that it'd be taught in such a way that doesn't encourage youngsters to run out, with the boys sticking balloons on their willies, and start engaging in a variety of perverse and hedonistic sexual acts.

Who wouldn't want their children to understand how their bodies will change within the next few years (how many girls still freak out when they get their first periods?), and learn the truth about "where babies come from" and/or what grown-ups in most civilised societies do to prevent giving them too many brothers and sisters while still being able to express their love for one another?
11:27 June 1, 2009 by tamimi
First of all to make it clear, people did not come here because they chose to live here but they escaped some horrible events threatning their lives in their home country, so it's not a choice for them to go back home though I'm sure many would hope that. Second, this issue has nothing to do with religion or Islam despite that it might be connected on the background but it is related to traditions abd cultural morals. You can't simply say that people who come here should forget their traditions and start new ones whether they like it or not. You guys don't get it coz you've never been in WAR before. Take a minute of your time and imagine your country destroyed and you were forced to flee the country and seek some safe resident somewhere, would you give up everything you've learned by your parents, society, teachers, school, people, etc. and just do whatever the people of the new country do???? I DOUBT IT MY FRIENDS!
11:43 June 1, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
This may be true for some, but not for all. Not all immigrants are refugees, you know.

And if some country had the courtesy to accept me from my own war-torn country, I know I would be grateful enough to that country to make an effort to follow their culture and their laws.

And as I asked earlier, do some cultures actually want to deny their children knowledge of how their bodies work - regardless of whether they're refugees or not?
11:46 June 1, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
Tut, tut...

Seems like most of Sweden's old laws has been undermined. Kvinnofriden is broken by women being mutilated and sold into marriage. Kyrkofriden is broken by police forcing themselves into churches and monasteries to take refugees into custody. Hemfriden is broken on a daily basis by vandals and burglars. Not even Ölfriden - each man's right to down his pint in peace - stands firm!

Seriously; this country has a written national curriculum. For those interested in what the National Curriculum states it's available in English here.

I don't think it's unreasonable to demand that all children are treated equally in school. The reason why Phys Ed was originally included is still very valid; to make sure that all children had access to strengthening their muscles and get exercise. Unfortunately an awful lot of children today spend so much time in front of computer screens and TV sets and so little time running around playing outside that they risk severe osteoporosis in later life. They need PE in school to make sure that they get exercise. This is regardless of religion or cultural background.

The reason why Sex Ed was included was to ensure that all people got access to knowledge on how to prevent unwanted pregnancies and STDs and to promote equality between the genders. How can this be a bad thing?

As for swimming... Why would it be bad to learn how to swim

No one is forcing your kid into a thong. Dress them in Victorian swim suits for all anyone cares. The curriculum does not state what kind of costume you should wear for PE or swimming lessons.
11:49 June 1, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
No, in all honesty most of us can never understand what it would feel like to have to flee your country and settle in a new.

However, it ought to be a fairly low price to pay for ones life to be patient with and respectful towards the culture and laws of the country which offers me asylum... don't you think?
11:50 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
I understand the desperation, but by coming to Sweden the person in question did make a choice. There are plenty of other countries which share some and occasionally many cultural characteristics as those the refugee is accustomed to in their home country. A choice was made to come to Sweden by the refugee or asylum seeker. The person is allowed admission into the new country. Why look the gift horse in the mouth when it's clear they've helped the person to get out of a horrid situation? And yes, I do understand that Sweden wasn't the first choice for many, in some cases it may have been the last.

I am not saying that a refugee should forget where they came from, their family history etc. Celibrate it, after all it is valuable, but that doesn't mean that anyone other than the individual is obligated to respect and honor the refugee's culture. I don't agree with is that the country that they fled to should have to change in order to accomodate for their special needs. The host country provided safety and security for their lives. Why should the host country (in this case Sweden) owe anything else beyond that? Where is the justification that Swedish society should have to change in order to incorporate ideals which conflict with the existing societal norms? What makes the refugee's culture more important to protect than the culture of the host country?
11:51 June 1, 2009 by bolababu

Well I have seen war but i have a question for you. You run from your country in a war situation and another country takes you in without conditions except that you adapt and obey its laws.

Which is worse? you being abandoned and refused entry, left to die in the war? or being accepted into a new country and asked to obey its laws in order not to make life difficult for your hosts? people lived here before immigrants came here.

I remember being in Dubai and not being allowed to socialize with the beautiful and single dames there, we were not even allowed to share a taxi with women, I should consider that a breach on my fundamental human rights. In Saudi Arabia, as a christian, I found other christians in secret church meetings because according to law, it is illegal to gather as christians. In Sweden though, the government uses its hard-earned tax-payers money to build mosques and send muslim clerics to be trained abroad. I didn't see any public commendations for that.
12:11 June 1, 2009 by Britswedeguy
I think "Black Pharoah" managed to confirm non-black peoples low opinion of traditional black society - ignorant and medieval.
12:22 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
Did I miss something?
12:22 June 1, 2009 by Playmaker
oh come on it is swiming lessons for peat sake. i remember having them in Fresno, Ca. it was one of the best part of the day we all loved it from what i remember. i also had sex ed and i did learn alot and it was fun. Look we live in a democarcy which is rulled by Majorty. we can not please everyone so the minorty has to suck it up and live by the law. if you do not like it vote or move. and for tamimi you talk about having no choice but to leave, but for refugees you have some say so where you go. i seen on al-jazeera the path of refugees and they wanted to come to sweden but they do not want to follow the cultur.
12:27 June 1, 2009 by 7
i think you're managing to confirm a validity of a low opinion of a british swede guy. perhaps only ignorant, but that's low enough.

i'll try not to extend that presumption to all other british swede guys.
12:39 June 1, 2009 by Kaethar
Blah blah blah. You are removing the RIGHT of all children to get an equal education by not allowing them to attend certain classes. What do you say to that?

Now that's what I call a correlation with no proof of causation.

Did you in some way confuse the US or UK with Sweden? I don't believe Sweden has been to war recently or carried out any terrorist attacks. So what's your point? How does this allow you to put yourself above Swedish law?


Equal does NOT mean "the same."

Social equality is a social state of affairs in which all people within a specific society or isolated group have the same status in a certain respect.

And no, Islam is not about equality. It's not about oppression of women as many in the West seem to believe, but anyone who believes Islam is a religion of equality is kidding themselves. In Islam there are gender roles and women and men play different parts.

This of course goes against mainstream Swedish values, which is where you'll have a problem...

Of course we can ask you too. Because you came here. You had other options, such as staying where you were or going to a country which has a culture similar to yours (which would seem to be the most obvious choice). It's amazing how so many Middle Easterners come to Sweden, a country which makes the US look like vatican city. It would be an enormous culture crash, even for Christian Middle Easterners. It's not an ideal situation for anybody, but we are definitely not asking too much when we ask you to follow our laws. As has been said for the 100th time - there is always the option of moving.
12:49 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
And don't forget some Americans who come from the midwest. I have a feeling that they would see so many new and exciting things that they wouldn't be flaccid for a month.

Yes, I said that word. Flaccid.



It's my birthday. I can say what I want. I hereby invoke flaccid chocolate cheesecake.
13:18 June 1, 2009 by Buckshot
When in Sweden you should follow the the Swedish laws and rules.

If a swedish girl goes to an arabic country, she can´t do whatever she wants.

Depending on which arabic country she goes to , she´s not allowed to sunbath, drink alcohol, drive a car, show her hair etc.etc.

If those people don´t want to follow the Swedish laws when in Sweden, GET THE **** OUT!
13:22 June 1, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q

Put that thing in the fridge, mate; cheesecake should be firm.
13:43 June 1, 2009 by Princess P
This thread is unbelieveable. "Follow Swedish law or get out!" As I understood it they are following the law. The law gives people the right to abstain from these classes. What they are doing now is exorcising their democratic right to voice their opinion to proposed changes to the law. Or does democracy only apply to some members of society?

And is it really reasonable to tell people to get out just because of swimming lesson. Do you not think that is just a bit of an overreaction? My daughter is an immigrant from the UK and there is absolutely no way whatsoever you could get her to take part in a school swimming lesson. Shall we start packing now? Really, it's ridiculous. Whether my daughter takes part in swimming lesson or not has no impact on anyone else so why is everyone so concerned in forcing her to do something she is so against.

It's all about balance and compromise. Yes, immigrants have chosen to come but the other side is that Sweden has chosen to have immigrants come here. It's all well and good to say that if you are invited into someone else's house you abide by their rules, but a good host also works at making their guests as comfortable as they can. I have dogs and they have free run of my house but when people come round who are uncomfortable with dogs they get contained (the dogs, not the visitors). I would be quite within my rights to say, "my house, if you don't like it get lost", but that says more about me than my visitors.
13:53 June 1, 2009 by Jasoncarter
I am 100% with Princess on this. Back in the UK if the government make a decision I disagree with I can make as much as a fuss as I like about it. I can even choose to moan about the way British people drive, or other aspects of society. However, in the view of quite a few people on here, you give up the right to have a view about or a say in how the country you live in goes about it's business if you weren't born there. 'This is how we do it, if you don't like it go home'. Well bad luck, this IS my home.
13:55 June 1, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
Actually, the curriculum states that a child should be able to swim to be allowed to graduate compulsory school. There is no law which demands that she takes part in the lessons, as far as I can see, but that she is able to swim.
13:55 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
I understand what you're getting at with the previous part of your post, but I want to highlight this specific bit...

There's a key word there for me... "visitors". While still a visitor (in my mind that means non-citizen) it's important to treat your hosts with respect, and not to demand things from them. While it's not proper to say "do X or leave" by the homeowner, it's equally improper for the guest to say "I demand that you do X for me".

This whole thing is a two way street. You give a little you get a little. Everyone has to compromise, but when one side is overbearing the opposing party has every right to scream "foul!". In the sex ed and swimming case it may be that things are going too far by making it mandatory, but at the same time it's not as though Swedes haven't bent over backwards for us jävla invandrare on other issues.
13:56 June 1, 2009 by Jasoncarter
Have they started building 200 metre moats around the colleges here now?
14:02 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
14:08 June 1, 2009 by Princess P
That was my point, it's about balance. As an immigrant I drive on the wrong side of the road, because it's the law. I pay (or rather husband pays) stupid amounts of tax, because it's the law. I'm saving up beatings for my daughter until we get into international waters, because it's the law. But some things are ingrained in culture and should be down to choice and insisting on change even though it doesn't affect others is mean.

My daughter had private swimming lessons back in England. Her auntie was a swimming instructor. She is a very good swimmer. There is nothing to be gained by forcing her to do it in front of her classmates.
14:17 June 1, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
Alas, no... However, if we're lucky they'll start
14:43 June 1, 2009 by Kind Man
What is family doctor for?

Let the family Doctors who understands you more as a person to advise you privately and at the same time keeping your privacy safe. I am sure many Christian Jews Hindu girls Would not like to see a plastic sex-toys in the teacher's hand to show you how it works lol.

Sweden's should be worry more about other issue than to force a students for something they are not welling to learn. and Let the Family doctors to handle when it comes to sex teaching. So Muslims parents usually teach their kids about sex when they are small.

You find more people infected with HIV virus in Christians countries than Muslims that means Muslim countries and people are in saver. Nobody tough me or our grandparents but we are all doing good LOL

and it is something you learn it by yourself honestly hehe
14:51 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
Your idiocy reigns supreme.

So, let's say we follow your advice. That means 99% of the students will avoid learning the following:

basic arithmaticreadingwritinghistory/civicsany science whatsoeverintermediate native language skills

Instead, they're be drooling idiots who's only talent is flicking boogers for distance and accuracy.

Pure genius.
15:02 June 1, 2009 by Kind Man
seems you need to start your schools again

These subjects doesn't apply to your privacy directly as SEX teaching. there was not any issue about these subjects you are referring. we are talking about integration here as well.

Sex is different subject. I am not against learning Sex, but FAMILY DOCTOR is solution. and even I am man I am shy to ask the teacher about sex in front of students who could later make fun of you. and it happens and happening among students..

so don't mix up subjects
15:12 June 1, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
It would, indeed, be a brilliant idea to let a trained medical doctor teach each family's children about safe sex and gender issues - but who would you suggest pays the several hundred krona an hour such a professional costs?

And who will deal with the administration and quality assurance to oversee that this teaching is carried out in a reasonably similar manner all over the country? And who will pay for this administration?
15:24 June 1, 2009 by roch
Regarding the whole sex thing...

When I was 11 my school held daughter- mother evenings with a health professional and the boys had son and father evenings as well.

It took the pressure off the teachers of having to broach the topic in the first place. All information was given by a health professional regarding periods, girls development, what happens when boys reach puberty etc. Everyone attended.

Parents were relieved that they didn't have to do it, teachers were relieved that they didn't have to do it initially and the follow up lessons were a breeze because the initial broaching of the topic had been done and because the health professional did it there was no "silliness" or embarrassment (as the boys evenings and the girls evenings were held on different evenings...)

The information given was factual and accurate. Focusing on the science/biology/reproduction aspect- NOT KIND MAN a teacher with a dildo (good grief).

Maybe some parents FEAR what they don't know or make exaggerated statements like kind man. Educating children about the natural changes that their bodies go through and to understand how their reproductive systems work and more importantly crushing MYTHS like "you can't get pregnant if....", type of thing is important.
15:33 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
Umm, no, the family doctor is not the solution. The family doctor is there to treat illness and injury. He is NOT a counselor for these types of things.

The last thing we need are longer waiting lists to see the doctor because some nitwit needs a private counseling session on "why am I bleeding from down there?", "why is there a hole there?", "what is supposed to go in there?", "why are my sheets wet after I have funny dreams?" as well as "where do babies come from?".

WRT asking a teacher about sex in front of other students and embarrassment... Clearly you haven't been privie to kids' conversations in the schoolyard here. Chances are they already have questions and/or curiosity about topics that they would never dare ask their parents or doctor. Besides, wouldn't you rather be embarrassed as a teen than as a full grown adult? Isn't there a requirement for being a teen to feel awkward and embarrassed when discussing mature topics? It's part of growing up. Get over it.

Also, usually the sex-ed courses are run in a very strict manner. It's not "how to make your lover scream in ecstasy", it's more along of the lines of an anatomy class explaining what each body part does, how different types of birth control work, STDs and how to prevent them etc. It's not as though they have take-home projects where they're told to try out 5 different positions and write a report.
15:43 June 1, 2009 by DMatni
Sweden is a multi cultural, multi religious society and integration issues will always be a point of debate. But compromise is certainly key and it should come from both sides, the immigrant AND the host country. I come from a multi cultural country where the govt does extend great efforts to accomodate and respect the differences of its people. At the same time, it stands firm on some other issues regardless of religion or culture. While problems of prejudice and racism still exist, the efforts made by the govt to reach out to the people have quietened the storm. Perhaps it is about being heard and respected for both parties ie. immigrants n host country instead of both sides trying to shove the 'my way or the highway' mentality. Both should find a way to co-exist and accomodate the beliefs of the other in a peaceful solution.
15:47 June 1, 2009 by Miss Kitten
When I took sex ed in my American high school in the early nineties, we had to have our parents sign permission slips in order to participate. It was taught by my biology teacher so the focus was mainly on anatomy and the mechanics of sex and childbirth. There were no dildos, no demonstrations of how to put on condoms, or any discussions of methods of birth control. We did discuss STDs and pregnancy though. We watched a lot of videos, including Nova's Miracle of Life, and saw a lot of slides of cringe worthy disease-ridden genitalia. Now that was enough to put us off the idea of having sex for a long time.
15:53 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
I knew it was a conspiracy. I KNEW IT!

Now I no longer wonder why it was so difficult to "score" in high school. You were brainwashed.

They should have shown you "2 girls, 1 guy" and "Saving Ryan's Privates". Over. and over. and over.

'Da bastids.
15:54 June 1, 2009 by Miss Kitten
Don't you mean, "Shaving Ryan's Privates"?
15:57 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical

The Burger King at Medborgarplatsen, 5 o'clock. Be there. Don't wear underwear.
15:59 June 1, 2009 by Miss Kitten
Hehe...I'm reminded of a line from that Digital Underground song:

"I once got busy in a Burger King bathroom."
16:15 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
16:24 June 1, 2009 by Princess P
Kids are funny. My daughter had her first sex education lesson when she was 5 from me. Her child minder was pregnant and she asked me how the baby got in there and how it was going to get again. I bought her a book for children which explained everything. I just had to read it to her which helped me my embarassment.

The funny part was that the bit where I nearly died of embarassment, the bit with dangly bits and how they fit together with non dangly bits, was of no interest to her. She went all red and embarassed at the drawing of a baby coming out. She sneaked the book to school to show her friends that picture. Her book was confiscated when one of the teachers found all the girls giggling over it and I got stern talking to about suitable reading materials for young girls. It's a good job I didn't buy the other book I looked at, it was a pop-up one.
16:41 June 1, 2009 by Bender B Rodriquez
People seem to forget that sex education is not only about learning how babies are made. A big part of the sex education in Sweden is about having an open discussion about gender roles, parenthood and relationships, hence "Sex och Samlevnad"...
16:50 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
Yep, indeed it is.

Somehow I conveniently forgot about the mother !#*%& egg exercise. What a pain that was. Yes, I dropped mine.
16:56 June 1, 2009 by Miss Kitten
We did the egg baby thing when I was in junior high, in a class called "Home Survival." No , huh? It was a junior high version of Home Economics. I didn't drop mine, though. In fact, I won a trophy: a golden (well, gold colored plastic) egg cup. My mom probably still has it. It was the only trophy-like thing I ever won.
17:02 June 1, 2009 by Bender B Rodriquez
We did not do any egg exercise, doesn't sound like a thing a Swedish school would do. Instead we have long discussions about what it means to be a good father/mother, what expectations children have of their parents, and discussions around different relationship scenarios.
17:02 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
Yep, mine was in middle school as well. Actually, that's when the sex-ed courses occurred. I suppose they wanted to inform us before we started boning everything that moved in high school.
17:27 June 1, 2009 by DAVID T
I get really bored of all this - if they don't like the laws of Sweden they are welcome to leave - How ignorant of them - if we moved to their country my wife would be stoned to death for not wearing the veil.
17:31 June 1, 2009 by Princess P
I doubt it. I come from England, we don't have much stoning there nowadays. Bit of a shame really, there's nothing like a good stoning.
17:51 June 1, 2009 by Craptastical
There, fixed it for 'ya to keep you on topic.
18:05 June 1, 2009 by Princess P
I don't know what that means. I went to a convent school.
20:51 June 1, 2009 by Tim Harrison
Our boys are in 5th grade in a Swedish school. The teacher just started talking to the class about puberty, falling in love, girls and periods, having funny dreams etc. What is so wrong and dangerous about knowing this stuff that a parent doesn't want their child to attend???? There is no talk about condoms, different positions, STDs, dildos etc...

Of course, we have taught them early on about the birds and the bees, and they know they can tell and ask us anything under the sun. However, many kids that age just don't want to discuss these issues with the parents since it can be very embarrassing and awkward for them so they prefer to ask a more independent adult, such as a teacher.

I remember myself being embarrasssed to death when my father tried to tell me about the birds and the bees. I just couldn't wait to get out of the room and didn't remember a thing what he was telling me about...
22:37 June 1, 2009 by Dagem Hailemariam
The biggest irony that everyone seems to be missing is the Liberals forcing a law on the masses :-D Not very Liberal of them is it?
05:00 June 2, 2009 by white_man
Liberal fascism is about legislating society into accepting its sacred race-mixing doctrines. Miscegenation between the races cannot be facilitated if black, white, asian and arab youth self-segregate.

The ambitions of Liberals go beyond contemporary politics, they want to create a mixed-race future, where the divisions will be by class.
08:07 June 2, 2009 by Inletwatcher
Okay, I will not talk Zebra... that is black and white. Although, this text is black and the "virtual paper" here is white, that is splitting hairs.

When I first moved here, I was agast at the thought of a total stranger teaching my kids something that I felt was very personal and private. During my time here **IN SWEDEN, I have come to understand that wow, maybe Sweden is correct on teaching the masses together young. Yes the girls wear make up and look like little hotties at 12. Yes, the boys will be boys, and well... the beat goes on. I look at the pregnancy rate of the kids in my sons school this year. ZERO. Last year, ZERO. The years before that, I am not sure of stats. In my homeland good old redneck Florida, I ran out of fingers to count how many girls came up pregnant.

I think information is power, and if some culture peoples don't like the topic of discussion, the kids are told before hand that there will be such discussions. The door to the free school here is that-a-way, and it swings both ways.

I read earlier a pissed off/or pissed on poster said something along the lines of "teaching Islam practices in school..." blah blah. Actually at my kids school they DO touch upon many different cultures to give the kids a better rounded world than the one that my generation grew up in.

This is the stuff that seperates us from the animals. Lets talk like adults here.

09:36 June 2, 2009 by Bender B Rodriquez
Haha, by that post I see that you are an American with no connection whatsoever to Sweden. Your future posts will thus be totally ignored since they bear no relevance.
10:36 June 2, 2009 by Kaethar
Actually, no. The rules say all children should take swimming classes to graduate. The muslims and others were actually treated as an exception to the rule because of "religious and cultural differences." Something they realise now is ridiculous since this is not equality and that all children in Sweden should be treated the same way.

Now that's what I call answering a question without giving an answer. So... what precisely is you viewpoint on this issue?
10:43 June 2, 2009 by Omaro
I am a Muslim living in Sweden and I want to say something to the Muslims who object this suggestion, first I understand how many Muslim families would find this suggestion(not a law yet) opposed to their culture and family traditions because the European family is different from the Middle-eastern one and I am not comparing here which one is better. So when I want to bring my family to live in a society I must accept that society`s culture and habits, accept them is thing and make them my family culture is another thing and it is nearly impossible to achieve the both when living in a foreign country, schools are administrated by the government and so the immigrant family must accept that, if someone don`t want his or her family to be brought up in Sweden, I think back home is an option, that is why I don`t want to raise a family in Sweden or any European country because I don`t like the European style of raising a family, that is first, and secondly I don`t want to break the law or going into conflicts inside my family, the person must understand what does going and living in a foreign country mean and how it will affect on him and on his-her family, and that is very important thing must an immigrant keep in mind when he intends to live away from home.
11:18 June 2, 2009 by Kaethar
Well said. I know plenty of people who think like you and who plan to move abroad when they have children for this reason. Which makes perfect sense in my opinion. It's a whole lot easier to change country than to change the society you live in, after all.
20:32 June 2, 2009 by Suresh Alvapillai
A few kids in Sweden are over sexual educated, because of their mamma och pappa and medias such us tv advertisements and etc. Kids in 9 or 10 years old, are talking about sex. It should be controled by the medias
23:07 June 2, 2009 by Puffin
The media should control sex - now there's an interesting idea

Of course children of 9 and 10 should know about puberty/sex - many start puberty at this age
05:20 June 3, 2009 by tornXbloodyXwings
*looks up*

wooow. there's alot of comments up there.

Basically everyone is not going to agree but to disagree.

Some people should learn acceptance.

It's not that hard. seriously.
06:59 June 3, 2009 by Princess P
So why are politicians discussing a new law to remove the right the seek an exemption? Are you saying that the news report this thread is debating is false?
10:48 June 3, 2009 by Kind Man
Family doctor is solution!

They can teach us and our young kids sex. (even sex is something you would learn yourself without a teacher) lol.
10:57 June 3, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
Yes... and send the bill for all the doctors appointments to Kind Man!
11:15 June 3, 2009 by Craptastical
How many new doctors would the state have to employ so that you could have your doctor handle teach sex-ed while still allowing for timely access to people who need to see a doctor for illness or injury?

How much more in taxes would you be willing to pay to support this?

Finally, since this would border on being a sex-ed counselor for the child or teenager, this would probably require additional training (possibly in the child psychology field). How many of your family doctors do you think would *voluntarily* go through such training?
11:17 June 3, 2009 by Kind Man
Two Joys are the most important things in your life one is Sex another is Teeth.

If you don't have teeth you would not really know the taste of foods. so always keep your teeth safe.

We pay for many other shits and why not the important thing in our life which is SEX? I would pay happily to learn more kidding unlike some others who keep the money for their funeral LOL
11:21 June 3, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
So, those of us who have very little money should not be able to provide sex ed for our children?

What you are, indeed, propagating for is a segregated society where only those who can pay will have access to this knowledge...

Way to go!
11:22 June 3, 2009 by Kind Man
We have many volunteers and I am sure many would do that. but to learn more about sex and to be on safe side it would not take you longer than hour? I am sure everybody can pay in Sweden for an hour course to a family doctor. if we cant pay then we dont deserve to learn sex hehe

dont make this sex education now look like physic LOL.
11:25 June 3, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
Have you ever been to Sweden? Ever met a Swedish GP???

How many of them do any kind of volunteer work in Sweden? Not many...

Or, are you now suggesting that any Tom, Dick and Harry can volunteer to teach the Sex Ed in the surgeries?

And rest assured, not everybody in Sweden can pay for an hour with a doctor to teach sex... You do realise what a doctor's hourly fee is before you start spouting off what would only be ignorant nonsense otherwise.
11:25 June 3, 2009 by Kind Man
it is duty of mother to teach her kids about sex or anything. MOTHER IS THE BEST TEACHER FOR KIDS.

we should educated the mother's first with their family doctors
11:32 June 3, 2009 by Craptastical
This is evidence that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever when it comes to sex-ed courses.

Do you really believe that the sex-ed courses covered in the schools can be reduced to one hour? Seriously?
11:36 June 3, 2009 by Miss Kitten
There's no way I could have learned from my mom everything I learned from my Biology teacher in high school. Parents are not necessarily experts in anatomy and physiology, contraception, and STDs.

As for doctors, they're far too busy to lecture a bunch of horny teenagers and their moms.
11:38 June 3, 2009 by Kind Man
I was not in Swedish school and I heard from the students what they learn in schools.

can you tell me how long it will take for sex-ed? and what parts can mothers teach to kids and what part can teacher teach? then i will come up with another solution lol
11:39 June 3, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
Evidently not...

11:41 June 3, 2009 by Craptastical
@Miss Kitten: I agree about the parent bit. The extent of my sex-ed course from my father was this... "Keep Little Timmy in the corral".

Why so short? Probably because he knew that the school already covered everything else
11:53 June 3, 2009 by Kind Man
Your dad knew it. look at yourself how healthy you are hehe and you are mash'allah discussing sex here and blaming your dad that he didnt knew. shame on you lol

You see the clear example:He was shy to tell you.

it is not only your dad but many gets shy to even speak about it. and in schools if 100 speaks about it then they would make fun of each others. there will be no privacy.

Imagine if a girl ask about BIG Penis. her classmates would always make fun her that she seems to like big LOL excuse my words.

in order to keep your privacy safe go to your family doctor LOL
12:02 June 3, 2009 by Craptastical
Wow, you completely took that out of context.

Dude, at that age everything is embarrassing. It's part of being an adolescent. It's better to let the kids learn how to deal with embarrassment at that age than avoid it entirely.

I still maintain that you know absolutely nothing about sex-ed courses and what information they cover.
12:03 June 3, 2009 by Miss Kitten
Mr. Kitten said that every year from about 5th grade, a guest lecturer from the local youth center would come to their school and talk to them about multiple aspects of sex and sexuality, including: masturbation, orgasm, relationships, contraception, and even homosexuality. The boys and girls were given separate lectures. At the end, the lecturer asked them if they had any questions, knowing that it went without saying that they would be too embarrassed to ask anything in front of their peers. Therefore, she suggested anonymously writing down any questions they might have. All this was designed to make it as comfortable as possible for them. They were also encouraged to go to the youth center to talk about anything with complete confidentiality. This method seems to work pretty well.
12:16 June 3, 2009 by Kind Man
Hmmm sounds like good method for teaching. So i am now going to be agree that boys and girls should be separated. and female teacher teach girls and male teacher teach boys. so it sound like good deal in order to keep their privacy safe.

But those who could still can afford to get more advise from Family doctor they should contact their GP. end of talk.

I need to study and i m kind of now addicted to this site. i m going to study or i would be fail hehe
12:38 June 3, 2009 by Inletwatcher
I am wondering if the problem with the swimming is the being in water part, or the clothes one wears so they can not sink so fast. I spoke to my son about this, he is in school now. He told me that they are "closing" the pool but for the muslim girls so they can get the lessons they deserve! I don't think they are being forced into the water. Good idea I think. But then again I am not sure what is right here.

14:59 June 3, 2009 by summerboy
@ Alma "I can not see African education as a model one should strive to implement". Hello..which country are you from?? Many in this world are blindfolded by cultural and religious indoctrinations and fail to understand that survival is the first law!..ask yourself: Does the teaching of sex education and swimming in schools assures the child survival for the future? of course YES!! My friends...where is common sense? Sweden is an orderly nation, take it or leave it. Many obnoxious cultural beliefs and religion has proven to be the greatest fall of man on earth. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, terrorism...slavery!! all have roots in religion. Beware of religions!!! science, knowledge & common sense has advanced us so far.
15:05 June 3, 2009 by rhelaien
For the poster of: multi cultural society=ghettos=social violence

I doubt even if all the cultures became a true 'melting pot' we would see a decline in violence from social differences. However I see some merit in your statement, as the cultures that separate themselves off into their own communities within a greater community do tend to do badly economically, which can lead to an even higher amount of crime and disadvantaged children.
15:28 June 3, 2009 by Puffin
And what about those parents that don't talk to there kids about sex? At my school sex education was not covered until age 14 - yet one poor girl knew nothing of puberty so when her periods started at age 13 she thought she was dying

The school did not inform pupils about contraception until we were 17 which was also too late - one girl in my class never made it to the contraception talk as she was in hospital delivering her first baby....

I doubt if most family doctors have a clue how to teach sex and relationships - this is not covered on their training which is mostly medical - although some cane explain contraception
15:32 June 3, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
Oh, but don't forget... Mother shall first go to the GP and get the talk, after the GP has been to a great course of course

15:48 June 3, 2009 by Norum
Black Pharoah, where on Earth did you get your numbers from?

3 billion blacks and 400 million whites? Thats the biggest nonsense I've heard in a while. According to your nonsense, blacks would account for 45% of the world's population.

There are roughly 914 million blacks in the world (14% of World's total population) and roughly about 1 billion whites which is about 15% of the world's population.
15:52 June 3, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
LOL! No, actually they're the ones who screwed __________ and will swear for God's sake they didn't.
15:53 June 3, 2009 by Damnit
many of the things on the media are not true. I have been in Iran but before my trip I heard lots about that country and their 'evil(!)' rules. Yes, I am restricted by their islamic laws like wearing a scarf but I could show my feet and could make up my face without hesitation.
16:06 June 3, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
and this is when pupil surpasses the adorable teacher...
16:37 June 3, 2009 by Black Pharoah
Norum - I arrived at my numbers by studying the United Nations World Population Database.

Their are Africans everywhere in the world.

Your delusional, a propagandist, and a liar.

White people are some of the most

powerful magicians on the planet.

A major example of their work is


White people are less than 1/10th of

the population of the planet. You

truly are a "minority"
16:41 June 3, 2009 by Craptastical
What is it with your fascination on the population of different races?

It seems that every thread you participate in you feel the need to say something about it whether it's relevant or not to the discussion.

Please, come up with something more useful to say than what you've offered so far.
17:22 June 3, 2009 by Bender B Rodriquez
Because he is a troll...
18:07 June 3, 2009 by Mzungu
...and certainly not a mathematician.
19:01 June 3, 2009 by Sofia_stockholm
No no! He's a MAGICIAN
20:33 June 3, 2009 by carmel
I freaking love this line. Is this copyrighted?
02:41 June 4, 2009 by jimmyjames
When I see a picture of someone who is obviously a pure sub-saharan african and the caption of the photo states that 1.) They are "Swedish" and 2.) They are the Minister of Integration I have to wonder about the sanity of the Swedish government and the Swedish people ( ethnic swedes). It is comical. Can you imagine seeing a similar picture in a Japanese newpaper stating that the black african was " Japanese " and a Japanese minister ? Japanese are not ashamed to tell all the world that Japan is for Japanese. They do not allow non-racial Japanese citizenship and even frown upon individuals who are 1/2 Japanese and 1/2 something else. They make no apologies for this behavior and no-one dares call them racists,nazis,ect. Why are only people of Western European ethnicity expected to commit racial,cultural,and ethnic suicide on the alter of "multi-culturism". I find this very suspect. I encourage all Western Europeans/Swedes to take a very serious look into this propoganda.
03:38 June 4, 2009 by Gustav- Fælbönnran
I think that we should round up everyone who looks different and put them in some sort of a camp. Maybe make them wear some kind of emblem if we know that they are not ethnically Swedish, but have light enough skin to pass for Swedish.

Also, mandatory tattoos, so that we can keep track of these "people" efficiently.

Who is with me?
03:44 June 4, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
In order to facilitate your idea/solution, I think it would be prudent to recruit helper citizens who are young, nubile and malleable.

I selflessly volunteer to head-up recruitment and medicals.
03:49 June 4, 2009 by Gustav- Fælbönnran
Would these youths by shockingly blond, tall, slender, with eyes like pools of blue water?

And what sort of numbers are we talking about? How many could you really handle?

It is just like you to take on such a selfless task. You are a true Patriot, and an inspiration to us all. This is the kind of devotion to public duty that we all should aspire to.
04:47 June 4, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
Indeed they would.

I should like to take delivery of my first fifty next Saturday evening. Hopefully by then the billets shall be ready; the bunks erected, glory holes cut and slings...slung.

I shall of course, by personal temperament be taking care of the male youth side of things and will leave the females to whomever considers themselves able to perform such tasks...

Anyhow, I thank you Commandant Gus for your kind compliments and will treasure them as I frequently come amongst my boy Corps.
13:29 June 4, 2009 by Puffin
Why shouldn't a woman who has lived in Sweden since 1981 run for political office?
14:52 June 4, 2009 by Craptastical
Wait... We have Jimmy James in here?!? THE Jimmy James?
15:40 June 4, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
What a stunna!!!
08:16 June 10, 2009 by raiteki
I live in the world-largest muslim nation on earth, where people like me (i.e. I'm agnostic) is being considered as a threat to national society, because having the idea of raising your children without religion beliefs imposed on them is considered what they called "dangerous" to the mental health of the whole society. Having said that, the whole national education system of this country (that i'm living in now) is heavily influenced by certain religious beliefs, which I think is just plain idiocracy in today's world.

Personally I think the swedish system of educating young people is the most advanced in the world, it really teaches you the most basic thing and that is: being a human and acknowledges it, regardless of your culture, religion or whatever that is.

I do respect and tolerate any religious or spiritual beliefs, but I strongly think that those aspects of life is best to keep at one's individual territory (i.e. home), public domain should be cleared from it.
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