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Israel accuses Sweden of 'diplomatic coup'

TT/Christine Demsteader · 14 Nov 2009, 11:11

Published: 14 Nov 2009 11:11 GMT+01:00

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According to an article in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Friday, Israel’s foreign ministry has instructed its EU envoys to block what they call the “Swedish initiative.”

The newspaper claims that it has seen official statements by senior Swedish official and other documents which refer to Jerusalem as the capital of the two states.

”Israeli missions in Europe were instructed to investigate, discreetly, the position of the EU member states regarding the Swedish initiative,” the article states.

”And whether this was an attempt at a diplomatic coup or an initiative that enjoys broad support.”

According to the Israeli government, this new position could have a serious effect on EU contributions to the peace process.

However, a source from Sweden’s foreign ministry told newspaper Dagens Nyheter that the evidence is unfounded. However, changes have been made to refer to Jerusalem as a future capital for Israel and Palestine.

”This has come about after requests from many member states and has been discussed by all 27 EU countries down to the smallest detail,” the source told DN.

”Essentially this is nothing new,” the source added. ”To achieve a lasting peace solution, it has long-been the understanding of the EU that Jerusalem needs to become the capital city of the two states.”

Newspaper Svenska Dagbladet also quotes a foreign ministry source who denies the allegations that a new position has been driven by Sweden.

”It sounds like an old assertion from Israel that Sweden wants to introduce a change in policy,” the source said.

Story continues below…

Relations between the two countries have been strained since a controversial article was published in Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet accusing Israeli soldiers of harvesting organs from dead Palestinians.

Meanwhile, the Israeli government has expressed surprise that a cancelled visit by Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt, planned for September, has yet to be rescheduled.

TT/Christine Demsteader (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

11:59 November 14, 2009 by mysticbumwipe
Israel repeatedly defies international law and bullies and pressurises anyone, any country and any group who attempt to act according to the law regarding the Middle East, Palestine, human righys abuses, etc., etc.

This is just more of the same.

The great irony is that Israel sees itself as the victim in all this and attempts to convince others of the same.

I myself feel sure that in history books of the future, this refusal by western powers to deal with Israel's illegal actions or admit to our European collusion in its Palestinian land theft, illegal embargoes, racist jew-only road, war crimes, etc., will go down as the greatest moral hypocrisy and shortcoming of our era.
12:31 November 14, 2009 by krrodman
Mysticbumwipe(good name, by the way) refers to Israel's refusal to follow international law.

Let's start with first principles:

Israel is recognized by international law as a sovereign state with all of the rights of a sovereign state.

How many Arab countries recognize and accept Israel's right to exist as recognized and defined by international law?
12:41 November 14, 2009 by reason
"official statements by senior Swedish official and other documents"

So just tell us which officials, statements and documents these would be. The claim should be very easy to confirm or refute if it is based on official documents.
13:08 November 14, 2009 by sebseb
Israel is a criminal state filled with fundamentalist and paranoiac. Israel is recognized by international law as a sovereign state with all of the rights of a sovereign state, true. This is why Israel has to obey to laws and especially the Goldstone report.

Why some losers always have to bring Arab countries in to disscusions on the Local. Stop your demagogy Krrodman.

While we have commemorated the fall of the Berlin wall, Israel is building one around itself. Totally pathetic.
13:43 November 14, 2009 by karex
I fail to see the revelance of the use of the term "diplomatic coup" in relation to Sweden and this issue at all. This is a very old issue which is brought up over and over again. Which leads me to suspect that this is just a petty reaction to the organ harvest article.
13:44 November 14, 2009 by delusion1982
Well put @Mysticbumwipe.

@krrodman: 100% of the Arabic countries recognise Israel as a sovereign state. It is stupid of you that you ask the question as if you know the answer!

Most Arabic countries though do not recognise the boarders and the actions of Israel, and there is a huge difference.

There is no UN resolution stating that Jerusalem belongs completely to Israel (but there are many resolutions Israel ignores everyday), Israel capital is Tel Aviv for those who do not know. I don't see any problem in Sweden having a stand in this, being it official of informal!

Lets just hope that Israeli lobby does not control the EU commission the way they control the US congress.
14:27 November 14, 2009 by baychus
Speaking of the Goldstone report I feel it was biased.How do u even compare a sovereign state to a terrorist group actions by defending its people and state.At least dat is how US and Europe even sweden see the hamas group. For 2 states to have one capital??????? There is always gonna be problems And by the way the Arabs are always full of problems one way or the other.Both here in sweden and their home lands.They are better stop the Jihad thing and face the real life and think positive like other welmeaning pple....
14:40 November 14, 2009 by Stone99743
Jerusalem belongs to ISRAEL , not the so called "Palestinian People" (nice term , i wonder who made it). So all of you arab sucking Europeans , can you please leave us alone? we don't care what you think , we don't want your opinion , we just want to live our lives peacefully here in Israel without hearing your whining all day about how bad we are. Now , you got your immigrants , have fun.
14:48 November 14, 2009 by Gexex

The problem is not by the Arabs but it with Israel because what Jews did to make their "Jewish state" was horrible. They killed every non Jew (Muslims & Christians, Women & children) by massacres and to make the rest of the Palestinians leave their homes by terrorizing them(massacres). and fire the rest to make their Jewish state that was wrong and UNFAIR. This conflict could be solved long time ago only if Jews accepted the right of the refugees they expelled to return ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL LAW. Because of the Zionist lobbies in Europe you see only the reaction not the action committed by Israel or Jews.
14:57 November 14, 2009 by Gexex

I am sure that you don't know about the going ethnic cleansing in east Jerusalem that started long time ago and accelerated this days. that ethnic cleansing will lead to violence as happened at the second uprising. the Israeli lobbies don't show to you that ethnic cleansing or try to legitimize it. but when the reaction (violence) happens it shows it to you and they pretend to be the victims and the that the others are terrorists. but in fact it is the opposite.
15:03 November 14, 2009 by HejHej
No doubt Israel is a reality. But unfortunately this reality was created after killing so many innocents, making million homeless and now the same reality is terrorizing its neighbours on daily basis.

Most of the world do not want this reality and want to GET RID of this.
15:05 November 14, 2009 by Gexex

Bad news for you but I am not Arab.
15:26 November 14, 2009 by mkvgtired
"now the same reality is terrorizing its neighbours on daily basis."

"Most of the world do not want this reality and want to GET RID of this"

I am not sure if Israel is the worst offender. That would be a tough sell to all of the people in border towns that have to dodge rockets from Gaza or the West Bank all day. When you say "get rid" of this reality I am assuming you would not invite all of the Jewish residents to Eruope, so where would you suggest they go? Do you want to "get rid" of the Arab residents that live in Israel and are happy there? If you look at the Freedom in the world report, Israel is the only country in the Middle East that is classifed as free. That leads me to beleive that its neighbors might not be as innocent as you state. They all control their people by force, some use more, some less. I would rather live in Israel than any other nation in the Middle East or North Africa.

15:47 November 14, 2009 by bluecanary
Of course Jerusalem is the capital also of the new Palestinian state! Does Israel suffer from memory loss?

15:51 November 14, 2009 by Stone99743
heh , You Wish.
17:20 November 14, 2009 by peropaco
Israel should stop paying attention to the sulky dandiprat Swedes. Needless to say they cannot even influence the roudy anarchys they have living in some of their suburs. They are like a herd of drunken elks. Carl Bildt is an outbildad pittpamp. Am yisrael chai
17:28 November 14, 2009 by krrodman
While everyone has attacked me, no one has answered the question I posed.

So, I will answer the question. At this moment in time no Arab states are willing to follow international law and recognize Israel's right to exist. Yet, at the very same time you criticize Israel for its unwillingness to follow international law.

I believe that the Israeli settlements in the west bank are not only illegal, but are outright stupid.

I believe that Jerusalem should be an open city.

I believe that the Great Wall of Israel will prove to be ineffective, although if measured by the decrease in the number of suicide bombers, it has been very effective up to now.

I also believe that until such time as Israel's neighbors recognize Israel's right to exist, Israel has no reason to give up one inch of territory or compromise on any issue regarding a Palestinian state..
17:45 November 14, 2009 by Gexex

i believe the opposite Israel must first accept the international law and the right of the Palestinians to exist including the refugees according to the international law then the Arabs can recognize Israel "Arabic initiative". In fact I don't understand how the rest of the free world recognize Israel"the only apartheid state in the middle east" while it don't recognize the international law or the right of the Palestinians to exist.
18:21 November 14, 2009 by krrodman

I am sure that you recall Bill Clinton's initiative at the end of his presidency. Arafat had all but agreed to a deal that would have made Jerusalem an open city as well as paved the way for a Palestinian State. The deal was never completed because the more radical elements in Palestine refused to accept Israel's right to exist.

So, I ask you this simple question:

If you were Israel, surrounded by people who refuse to accept your right to exist, what would you do?

Or, let me ask you the question differently. If Hamas or Hezbollah had its way, what do you think Israel would look like 5 years from now? Do you think it would look like a utopian land where arabs and jews live and work together in blissful harmony? Or, do you think Hezbollah would make good on its pledge to "push every Jew into the Mediterranean."

Frankly, I have no reason to think that Hezbollah seeks a peaceful solution on any Palestine-Israel issue. And their benefactor, Iran, has made the destruction of Israel an official state policy.

So, tell me, how do you see this ending?
18:23 November 14, 2009 by bluecanary
Jerusalem is an international city that belongs not to Israel but to all the faiths.#

Israelis and AIPAC members, CFOI , LFOI, Hasbara paid bloggers and the international Beth DIn can fantasize all they want - won't change the facts.

However, there are some important facts that WILL be changing within the next 1-3 months. Stick around, listen to CNN/ BBC, and bring a paper-towel.
18:23 November 14, 2009 by svenskdod
This is ridiculous!!!!

I can not believe people are still arguing on the side of the Palestinians. Are people unaware of history or has the whole "feel sorry for Palestinian people" thing just taken over? The land has been a part of Jewish culture for more than 3000 years!!!!!! The palestinians are occupiers who moved in after the Ottoman empire took it over (by the sword) and they are the remnants.

Parts of the Arab League have disassociated themselves with the palestinian hierarchy because of their extremist views. They have been attacking people in Egypt for god sake!!!!! Why does Sweden continue to have this soft spot for them? If Sweden wants to help out why dont they go in and build a school or something? It is obvious that they could use a history lesson.

This story mentions a settlement in the region. Seriously?! Are people that thick?! The conflict has been going on for 1500 years, do you really think is will be solved in any of our lifetimes? The only solution to this is removal of either party, they have proved that they can not live together.

I remember seeing Arafat Rabin shaking hands in front of Clinton. People were like "well finally it's over" and how wrong they were...
18:36 November 14, 2009 by HejHej
After reading all the comments, the conclusion is ....

How good Israels are in hidding their cruelity against Palestinians and how poor the palestinians are in revealing the atrocities against them by Isrealis.
19:30 November 14, 2009 by engagebrain
"...make their "Jewish state" was horrible. They killed every non Jew (Muslims & Christians, Women & children) by massacres and to make the rest of the Palestinians leave their homes by terrorizing them(massacres)"

The war around the founding of Israel has one authentic massacre of around 400 people by an extreme rightwing Israeli group. Israel lost around 1-2% of its population in the same war, including some settlements wiped out.

The above quote reports something entirely different and descends into the world of fantasy.

The totality of all the whole Israel-Neighbours fighting over 60 years is trivial compared with Darfur. The population of Gaza and the West Bank is booming

Hardly genocide.

While the story of Israel and the Palestinians is a tragedy we should at least keep the debate within the realms reality.
19:56 November 14, 2009 by bluecanary
It is true, the discussion should take place with the realms of reality and fact.


Did you order the killing of the 900 civilians, in Gaza, in January, in self-defence or did you kill them to save others?

Did you kill these non-combatants in order to terrorize the civilian population?

Were you aware that to kill civilians, except in self-defence, is a war crime?

Did your troops use banned white phosphorus as a chemical weapon to injure and kill?

If your soldiers are alleged by an independent enquiry to be guilty of war crimes, will they be handed over voluntarily to the ICC for trial?

In which event, will Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert, the ministers directly responsible, be voluntarily be handed over to the authorities in The Hague, or will it be left to other governments to arrest them ?


Extracted from the official United Nations Report of the Fact Finding Mission. April/May 2009

1. Deliberate attacks by the Israeli army on civilians

2. 1400 Gazans killed in three weeks

3. The illegal use of white phosphorus

4. Israeli violations of the right to free movement

5. Dehumanization

6. Torture and punishment

7. Violations of international human rights and humanitarian law

8. The arbitrary deprivation of life

19:58 November 14, 2009 by svenskdod
What is the problem with people here???

The pro-palestinian supporters are either Palestinians, of the same ideology, or idiots. I can not believe that anyone would support the likes of Hezbollah or their mates in Iran.

Have a look at the perspectives here and put them into context. What would happen if Denmark started to shoot rockets at Skåne? Wasn't Skåne a part of Denmark just a while ago? If your mother was killed by a rocket barrage from Denmark would you not want some retribution? Or would you think that they were entitled to shoot those rockets, and that they are just misunderstood? Swedes need a war to wake them up. This idiotic, utopian ideology that they think they live in is just naïve.

@Stone99743: I couldn't have said it better myself.
20:12 November 14, 2009 by baychus
U guys shud please give Isreal a break u haters............All the wars and terrorism in recent tymes is as a result of muslims most Arabs.And a tyme is coming here in sweden dat Arabs and somalians will be taking over. A typical swede usually have 1,2,atmost 3 kids but this people are here breeding like flies giving birth to new jihadist daily with tax payers money as financial support.And they have got no usefulness here except for makin kebab and pizza.Intellectually dey have got nothing to offer to the world except death killing innocent people even dem selves.

have u guys asked ur selves why they re killing their own people they say they are fighting for? If they could kill dem selves so easily why will they feel bad at all killing a swede or an Isreali...............................Thinking people
20:32 November 14, 2009 by Antioche
You can't call people primitive apes and do whatever you want to them without any consequence.Your politics for trying to picture palestinians inhuman in Europeans eyes and act like they are some apes is a shame.And Jews left that lands long before the Ottoman Empire, learn some history for yourself.With these kind of shameful actions, you unite people around some radicals or terrorists in majority of Hamas and Hizbullah. That doesn't help and you cant make people not to look when you massacre people.

It is not a one-way problem of course there are many wrongs in arabs side but Israel is the one with greater responsibility due to their freedom and power.
21:43 November 14, 2009 by krrodman
The Gaza war exemplifies the huge difference in philosophy between Israel and Sweden. The Palestinian rockets from Gaza had no military value, and inflicted relatively little damage(of course, it is very easy for Sweden to say that the relatively few Israeli deaths were inconsequential). Sweden would have liked Israel to respond with restraint. To the contrary Israel responded with extreme force, much to the horror of the liberal west.

I ask you this: How many rockets have been launched against Israel since the war in Gaza? Answer: None.

So, in the short run Israel's tactics accomplished their desired goals - No more rocket attacks against Israel from Gaza.

The big question, of course, is what happens next time. In my opinion, the next time war breaks out the Palestinians will have better rockets and Hezbollah will open up a second front in the north. The Israelis will suffer more deaths. But, the Israelis will be ready. They know that the United Nations is completely impotent and has done nothing to stop Hezbollah in the north.

The carnage against the Palestinians and the Lebanese will be staggering.
22:32 November 14, 2009 by Gexex

"If you were Israel, surrounded by people who refuse to accept your right to exist, what would you do?"

If I was in the position of Israel I will start to ask my self why they hate me ??

You can't steal two flats from a building and fire the inhabitants there and then ask the rest of the building to accept your right to exist as a thief and you argument that your god told me to do that. That's insane Even they told you that they are ready to accept your existence but you have to allow the native inhabitants to return to their flats but you still refuse because you God told you they are Jewish.
23:23 November 14, 2009 by bluecanary
Anyone here interested in facts as opposed to propaganda?

1. There was a Jewish sect in Jerusalem over 5000 years ago. FACT

2 There has been a majority, indigenous Arab presence in Palestine for over one thousand years. FACT.

3. Prior to the establishment of Israel by the UN, in 1948, against the express opposition votes of all the Arab states, there was only a minority Jewish settlement in Palestine. FACT

4. There is no legitimate reason for there to be an Israeli state that covers the majority of the land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean. FACT

5. If you give Palestine to the Israelis because of a Jewish presence there 5000 years ago, then you must give Florida back to the Indians, FACT
00:48 November 15, 2009 by Bob Morris
Let's start with some facts ansd maybe food for thought:

Arabs who are Israeli citizens get a free university eduction.

They have freedom of speech, including their own political parties and censorship-free newspapers.

Nationals of all Arab countries often come for sophisticated medical treatment unavailable at home, even though only Jordan and Egypt recognize Israel.

The Goldstone report figures on how many "civilians" were killed in Gaza were obtained by testimony in "open meetings" in Gaza--where Hamas, who runs Gaza, is well known to kill or cripple all who openly disgree with the party line. Does anyone really think these figures bear any resemblance to the truth? Why should Israel or anyone else rely on a report with data of quality as poor as this?

The platforms of both Hamas and the PLO contain clauses advocating the expulsion of all Jews (the late Yassir Arafat promised to expunge that clause, but never actually did it.)

Yours from Bob Morris
01:52 November 15, 2009 by krrodman
First and foremost.

I don't believe in God. Not a Jewish God. Not a Christian God. and not a Muslim God.

Politically, I am a pragmatist.

I don't believe that the Israelis should be in the West Bank. In fact, I think that it is crazy that the Israelis have settlements in the West Bank.

And, I think it is equally crazy that any Palestinian, or Arab or Swede could imagine that Israel would give up any territory without the dissolution of Hamas and Hezbollah .

And please don't even suggest that the UN would "guarantee" the safety of Israelis. The UN is a pathetic joke. The UN is supposed to guarantee the demilitarization of Southern Lebanon. We all know how that has turned out.

It is equally crazy to imagine any situation in which the Israelis will allow Palestinians to return to Israel to reclaim land. NEWS FLASH: To the Victors go the Spoils of War. The Arabs attacked in 1948. The Arabs attacked in 1967. They lost. So it goes.

So, where does this leave us?

There will be another war. It will be worse for everyone than the last one. Will Hezbollah engage? Yes. Will Syria engage? I don't know. Will Iran engage? I don't know.

Will civilians suffer? Absolutely.

There will never be peace until both sides tire of war.....
04:55 November 15, 2009 by bluecanary
@ KRRODMAN "The Arabs attacked in 1948."

Did the Arabs 'attack', or did they defend?

The UN Resolution of 1947 to partition Palestine was OPPOSED by all the Arab states that would be affected by the imposition of a Jewish state in Palestine. Consequently, in 1948, they 'attacked' (and lost) in order to defend their land.

What would you have done if you and your family had been born in Palestine and were displaced and dispossessed by a decision to allow refugees from the WAR in Europe to settle on your land and destroy your villages?

I will be interested to read your reply.

note: voting was as follows:

30 countries (54%) initially in favour:

Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Belorussian SSR, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Sweden, South Africa, Ukrainian SSR, United States of America, Soviet Union, Uruguay, Venezuela.

An additional 3 (5%) switched to in favor:

Haiti, Liberia, Philippines.

Against, (13 countries, 23%):

Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstentions, (10 countries, 18%):

Argentina, Chile, Republic of China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.
11:25 November 15, 2009 by Kooritze
Once again we are in the presence of the cynical, angry and arrogant Israelis on this comment thread.

How tediously boring!
12:56 November 15, 2009 by krrodman

You are well informed which makes this a much more interesting discussion. As you are well aware, the political map of the Middle East is largely synthetic. The modern Middle East was created after WWI by the British, French and US. Of note is that Jordan was a completely new state created by the British. The Hashemites of Saudi Arabia were made the rulers of Jordan by the British to thank them for their help during WWI. *(as an aside, the British would have preferred to make the Hashemites the rulers of Saudi Arabia, but the Wahhabis were too strong for the British to displace them) So, we have a synthetic state with synthetic rulers created by the west. Palestine, an area that already had Jewish settlements, was part of Jordan.

After WWII, the west, once again, further divided Jordan to create the State of Israel. I agree that Israel is a created state, as so many others are. Is it a creation of western colonialist power? Yes, as are many other middle eastern countries.

I think it is important to point out that Palestinians were invited to stay in Israel. The surrounding Arab countries advised them to leave and told them, in effect, "when we wipe out the Israelis you will get your land back." When the Arabs lost the war, all of the Palestinians who had left were now without home and without country. The great Palestinian displacement was largely self-inflicted.

None of this, of course, provides us with a solution to the current mess. Does anyone on this blog seriously believe that Israel is going to give itself back to the Palestinians? (In a sense it really "belongs" to Jordan and NOT the Palestinians) It will never happen. There are only two choices here. A political solution or a fight to the death.

A political solution will only come when both sides are tired of the fight.
13:20 November 15, 2009 by delusion1982
Why do some stupid people here compare the rights of the Palestinians as human beings to the acts of some of their extremist groups? and why do we bring the problem of palestine to Hezbollah and Syria and so, when the facts were facts, and the UN had a bit of dignity and power over lobbies, they made many resolutions for the side of the palestinians, what happened to those? what if Iran ignores these resolutions? will the world stay silent? or only because people hate religion they will mix things together?

And for Israeli suckers on this forum... (probably all those who support Israel here, since you need to be a complete jerk and hypocrite), stop invading these forums and leave a space for a discussion of reason and sense, since these are always lost when you are involved.

And go solve your problems for goodness sake and stop making problems in the world, think about peace for once in your history
15:23 November 15, 2009 by calebian22
The fact is, I have twenty plus visa entries into Ben Gurion airport in ISRAEL not Palestine. Boohoo! Long live Israel.
16:17 November 15, 2009 by Matan
Jerusalem was Israel's capital

Jerusalem is Israel's capital

Jerusalem will stay Israel's capital
16:32 November 15, 2009 by merleletta
One idea that would solve part of this age old dispute would be to have a non bias specifically non religious, governing council that oversees the governing of Jerusalem, making it a world hertiage site and its own state, no one can own or rule that area of land, not Israel, not the USA not the Palestinian etc.....NOT owned or run by anyone with a stake in the out come of the land or religious site except a non bias ruling body....and there only interest is the preservation of the site. The whole of the Jerusalem area not just parts of it...



Old City of Acre

White City of Tel-Aviv -- the Modern Movement

Biblical Tels - Megiddo, Hazor, Beer Sheba

Incense Route - Desert Cities in the Negev

Bahá'i Holy Places in Haifa and the Western Galilee
17:34 November 15, 2009 by krrodman

Remarkable, simply remarkable.

There are people on this blog who are trying to have a serious discussion about a very difficult topic.

Do you have anything to add to this discussion except for your racist hatred of Jews?
22:25 November 15, 2009 by goodbyeammar
To those who flood this site with Israeli propaganda, let me just mention here some facts:

1-i Understand you! You are under accusation, so that is why you are desperately trying to steer the debate according to the Israeli interest. I pity you. I know it is a very hard job to whitewash the Israeli occupation and atrocities against Palestinians. I have bad news for you: in the age of Internet, people started to read and watch videos from the occupied Palestine.

2-regarding the history: you are talking about the Jewish existing in Palestine before 5000 ago. I am not sure if you can win this debate anymore. Even ignorant people would ridicule the process of gathering Jews from different parts of the world in Palestine to build a state for them just because they lived there before 5000 years. But again, even if we go back deep in the history, according to the bible and other Jewish text books, the Jewish existence as entity in Palestine was not more than 400 years. In the bible account, Jews invaders of Palestine conflicted with Palestinians when they came to Palestine from Egypt (before 5000 years- I feel myself ridiculous when I go back 5000 years but I am forced to go deep for the sake of argument). Jewish power was strong so they defeated Palestinians. Anyway after 400 years, they left or were forced to leave Palestine and Palestinians stayed there and were ruled by different empires. So the Jewish existence in Palestine as an entity was short (400 years). Palestinians were before them and then co-existed with Jews and then stayed in Palestine for thousands year after the Jewish left. This information can be found in the bible and in all the history books, even the Jewish and the Zionist one. The differences you will find in the writing the history of Palestine is in the justifications. I do not believe in the bible, but I brought it up here because the pro-Israeli debaters all the time use it to justify their crimes of the Israelis against the Palestinians. Apart from the bible and the religious books, we have other sources give more weights to what I have written above, which I list them as follows:

A-let us read he crusade war: at the time, the Jewish existence in Palestine was almost absent. The crusaders destroyed Palestinian cities and murdered many of them. The mentioning of Jewish people in this issue does not exist at all.

B-Napoleon's campaign in the Middle East: it was stopped in Palestine. He destroyed big parts of the city of Jaffa and then he was defeated in Acre and the wall of Acre is a great witness for the Palestinian resistance against Napoleon. Where is the Jewish existence then?
22:42 November 15, 2009 by krrodman


So, it is clear that you believe that Israel has no legitimate claim. Personally, I agree with you that history is no guide here. On the other hand, I am a pragmatist. Like it or not, Israel is a sovereign state recognized by the international community.

What is your proposed solution to the conflict?

Please don't submit childish solutions like:

1. the Jews should go back to Europe or

2. Israel should capitulate and give their country to the Palestinians

Everyone on this blog knows that will never happen.

Please, be practical. Give me a solution that you think will work for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. After all, if both sides don't approve, the war will continue.
22:59 November 15, 2009 by goodbyeammar
let we talk about the historical evidences for the Jewish existence in Palestine: if any nations stayed in any place for long time, they build civilizations there. In Spain, the Arabic buildings are spread everywhere. Spain is one of the most tourist places in Europe because of the Arabic civilization which were built in Spain during the Arabic rule. Any ordinary person would understand that Arabs stayed in Spain for long time (1000 years). Ok. If the Jews stayed in Palestine for long time then where are the Jewish historical buildings in Palestine? If we go to the old town of Jerusalem, we see only Palestinian buildings; we see the Palestinian churches and the mosques which were built since hundreds of years. If we go to Jaffa and Haifa, we see the magic of the Arabic civilizations in the old towns of these great cities. The same things go to other cities. If this means anything, it would be that, the Jewish existence in Palestine was for a very short period of time. (And this is supported by the bible itself).

Anyway, no one can justify the creation of Israel in the land of Palestine because this act has resulted in catastrophe for the Palestinians. Jewish people belong to different ethnic backgrounds: some of them are Iranians, Iraqis and Yemini. Big part of them comes from Russia and east Europe. It is very sick to expel Palestinians out of their homes and replace them with Jewish people. The idea is racist because it requires gathering people from different parts of the world just because they are Jewish and sending them to a new place. Why cannot they live in their country with their people? Why the Swedish Jew cannot live in his country and needs special country to live in with other Jews? The idea is criminal because in this process, Palestinians are either murdered or expelled out of their land by the Israelis in order to leave place for the 'chosen people'. In light of that, I do not recognize the criminal state of Israel. This is cannot be acceptable from any ethical perspectives. Those who talk about reality let me say one thing here: reality does not mean to accept the injustice. What do you say about the Palestinian refugees? If we accept the Israeli reality in Palestine then we accept that Palestinians to live in miserable refugee camps. NO, I refuse this reality. Palestinian refugee should go back to their homes. Another issue, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian is committed by Israel on daily basis. What is about the Palestinians who are expelled out of their homes in Jerusalem and the west bank and replaced by Jewish settlers? Should we accept this reality? Accepting the idea of the Israeli right to existence mean that these new settlers have a right to exist in the stolen houses and lands in the east Jerusalem and west bank. Everyone has a right to exist but his/her existence should not be at the expense of others. I do not understand why the Swedish Jews should have a right to exist in stolen lands from Palestinians.
23:25 November 15, 2009 by Zero

"Anyway, no one can justify the creation of Israel in the land of Palestine because this act has resulted in catastrophe for the Palestinians."

I guess no one can justify the creation of the US because that act was a catastrophe for the Native Americans either. We should send all whites in the US back to their country of their ancestor's origin, right?

Hm, wait, the creation of Egypt was a disaster for the Coptic Christians who lived in Egypt prior to the Arab invasion. Let's send them back to the Arabian peninsula. How did the Arabs get into Palestine in the first place? Did they invade and massacre the people who were living their prior?

Also, Swedish people should be removed from Lapland. The Sami were there first. Swedish incursions have almost destroyed their culture.

Do you think the Swedish nation was carved out peacefully? Are you really that naive? Sweden is made up largely of former Danish and Norwegian territories. So I guess Sweden isn't a "legitimate" nation either.

You really are a smart guy. The fact of the matter is, the Jews are now in Israel. Why? Not because of Americans, but because of Europeans. Your intolerance of Jews in your countries forced them out. Would you have stayed in Europe if you were a Jew in 1945?

Do you really think Islamic extremists are going to stop at Israel. They won't be satisfied until the entire world follows their religion.

"Accepting the idea of the Israeli right to existence mean that these new settlers have a right to exist in the stolen houses and lands in the east Jerusalem and west bank."

Again, I guess Swedes have no right to exist in Skane. Or in Jamtland. Or in Lapland. That is, afterall, stolen land. Isn't it?
23:26 November 15, 2009 by goodbyeammar
To those who criminalize Hamas and Hizublla:

Resisting foreign occupation is legitimate from the international law perspective. Palestine is under occupation so Palestinians have a right to defend themselves and en up the Israeli brutal occupation which have been aged for several decades. The European nations resisted the Nazi occupation so others have a right to defend themselves. The EU countries and the United Stets supply Israel with deadly weapons which are used to massacre Palestinians. Israel is imposing an immoral economical siege on Gaza. Since 4 years, people have been deprived of normal life. Israel is restricting the food and fuel delivery. After demolishing schools and thousands of houses in Gaza, Israel does not even allow the Palestinians to re-build their houses by preventing the construction materials. In the west bank, there is occupation for decades. What would you do if you see the tanks even since you are born? What would you do if you are kicked out of your house and your house is given to other people? What would you do if your movement is restricted for decades? Of course you will resist. Resisting the occupation is a moral duty. The peace is very easy. It is not a two sides' faults. We have a case of occupation. Since Israel does not want to end up its brutal occupation and killing people and stealing their houses in daily basis, then Palestinians have a right to resist the Israeli barbarity.

Resisting the occupation is not extremism. The occupation is an extremist act. The idea of moving from one land and stealing others' land is very extremist and disgusting. When Hamas refuses this design then this should not be extremist. If this happen to Swedes or any nation, they will refuse this. At the end of the day, the only weapon left for Palestinians is their body. They do not have tanks and jet fighters from America or Europe. They do not have Swedish missiles like Israel has. If Sweden is under occupation for decades, and if Swedes are deprived of fuel in winter and food, and if Swedes are not allowed to get weapons to defend themselves, then I am assure you guys, you will see lots of suicide bombers in the streets of Stockholm.
23:45 November 15, 2009 by Zero
Muslims always want people to "respect their religion" and their culture, but they never seem to reciprocate the same respect they seek. Respecting other religions is a one way street for them. Muslims won't be satisfied until the entire world is Islamic. Islamic societies are hotbeds of intolerance and fundamentalism.

Of course there is always a rationale for them to fight and kill people (mostly civilians) of other religions. What is the excuse for massacring Christians in Sudan, I wonder? Or in East Timor? Or Hindus in the Kashmir?

Funny how there was a Mosque built in Rome quite recently (the resting place of St. Peter), but I wonder if a church would ever be allowed to be built in Mecca. Of course not. There is no tolerance in Islam.
23:51 November 15, 2009 by goodbyeammar

You miss the point my friend.

1-you have nothing to say, so that is why you turned the issue to Islam and Mecca. We r talking about the Jewish occupation of Palestine, we are not talking about Mecca. But let me tell you one thing: if you want me to respect the Jewish occupation of Palestine then I proudly say it: I do not respect that!

2-of course the creation of the USA is not justified because it was based on murdering the indigoes people of that land. However, the USA is a reality now after more than 300 years. The Israeli creation in Palestine did not happen 300 or 400 years. I understand the history very well. This is a cheap game you are playing here dude! Palestinians do still exist. They are not completely wiped off like the Red Indian in America. Palestinians are reality. The Israeli occupation of Palestine is still something going on. We are not talking about occupation that happened 400 years. The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in east Jerusalem and the West Bank is happening n daily basis. So the Palestinian issue is not part of the history, it is part of our present times. Most of the Palestinians are still living in refugee camps in the surrounding countries. The vast majority of the red Indians were killed and the rest are living in their home countries. The Sami people are living in their countries. They are not living in refugee camps. And very important thing must be said here: if Americans managed to destroy the red Indians that do not mean that we should accept the process of destroying Palestinians by the Jews invaders. Sami people have their rights and live in their lands. Jews people can still live in Palestine but Palestinians should go back to their land. if red Indians or Africans accepted the occupation or the colonization, that does not mean Palestinians should do the same. Again and again: the Israeli colonization of Palestine is part of our present time, not part of the history.

3-regarding the Egypt issue, do not make me laugh. There were Arab invaders for Egypt but many of the Christian Egyptians converted to Islam. This issue was more than 1300 years ago. The invaders from the Arabic peninsula and the other people of Egypt, with the passage of time formed what is called now, the Arabic Egyptian people. Still, the Egyptian christens are living in their country. Again, that part of the history, not in our present times.

4-regardign to you call it Islamic extremism, you are making me laugh again. Instead of calling the occupation extremist, you are calling the reaction against the criminal state if Israel as extremism. I thought extremism means giving Jewish people the land of Palestine because ''god promised them this land''.
00:01 November 16, 2009 by krrodman

I ask you again:

Given the fact that the State of Israel exists, and is recognized as a legitimate sovereign state by the international community, what do you propose as a settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians?

Please, make it a real world solution - no silly fantasies, please.
00:02 November 16, 2009 by Zero
Again, virtually every state is a criminal state by your definition. How is 300 years different than 40 or 50 years? What is the time limit for a state to become "legitimate"? You use the word "reality" a lot, but you seem to have no grasp of reality yourself. There are as many Jews in Israel as there are Danish people in Denmark. Tell me where these Jews should go. You do understand that Jerusalem was originally founded by Jewish people don't you? You understand even Islam owes it very creation to its Jewish forebearers.

So what's your excuse for Muslim atrocities in Sudan? Again, Muslims will not be satisfied with exterminating all the Jews in Israel. They want EVERYONE to be Muslim.

I also suspect that the Jews are much more tolerant than the Muslims would ever be. They allow a Mosque to sit on the holiest site of their religion. I wonder if the Muslims would tolerate a Synagogue in that same location if the roles were reversed.
00:02 November 16, 2009 by krrodman

I ask you again:

Given the fact that the State of Israel exists, and is recognized as a legitimate sovereign state by the international community, what do you propose as a settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians?

Please, make it a real world solution - no silly fantasies, please.
00:08 November 16, 2009 by Zero
Also I wonder if you can name a state that was founded without any bloodshed whatsoever.

You need to seriously step outside of Sweden and understand how the world works, my friend. Not every country has the luxury to sit back and let other countries do all the fighting for them to keep them safe, so that they can sit high and mighty and judge everyone else for a position of higher morality.
00:11 November 16, 2009 by sebseb
Look, we have to make things clear here. We, in Europe, we defend the weak and vulnerable people. And now, obviously, Palestinians are the vulnerable ones.

Bottom line, in our everyday lives, we don't care about any of you in the Middle East. What is very important, is the gas coming from Russia. Since we will have a pipeline that goes directly from Russia to Germany, we could not care less about Israel and the other people there. If there is an issue in Israel, blame the British and the Sionists. In fact, why don't you just anihilate each other, Isrelis and Palesistinians so we can rest here, in the civilized world? What about that!

You now, long live to Russia, Europe and China. Others? Do whatever you want, but give us a break.
00:24 November 16, 2009 by goodbyeammar
To Zero:

Do not try to hide the Israeli crimes by jumping to other issues like Sudan. We are talking about the Israeli crimes in Palestine, not the crimes in Sudan or the crimes in Yugoslavia. But I thank you for telling that '' Also I wonder if you can name a state that was founded without any bloodshed whatsoever''. This is a confessness that Israel is a Criminal state. I notice one thing, the Israelis think that since many people committed crimes then they should also have the same right. This is sick.

To krrodman:

First let me tell u one thing: asking for people's rights and fighting the illegal occupation is nothing at all near silly fantasies like what you termed it. If the word recognize an apartheid occupational state, that does not give it any legitimacy.

No one says that Jewish should go back to Europe. And no one asks the Israelis to give Palestinians their country because simply it is not their country. They have occupied it for decades and I think you agree with me. The solution is very simple: justice. If there is no justice, then there will be no solution. Jews can stay in the lands which they took from Palestine but they should give Palestinians their rights. The solution is to end up the occupation and give back Palestinians their rights. If you want to give me any solution without ending the occupation then this is not only childish, but also barbaric and inhumane. The two-state solution is dying by the way. Israel has killed it by building more Jewish settlements in the west bank. I would assume you would call it childish to demolish their settlements which are built on stolen land in the west bank because there are almost half million Jews settlers are living there. Israel has killed any possibility of the two-state solution. The most practical solution is a country for all. This solution is more practical because of what I have explained. Palestinian refugees should go back to their lands and live together with others. They should be compensated as well. This solution is more ethical because it guarantees people's rights. The Zionist ideology which called for Jewish immigration to Palestine should be fight because it creates racism and crimes. This one-state solution is the perfect because it does not include racist designs like this place for Jewish and this place for non-Jewish. As I said earlier, this solution has become the most practical solution. Do not tell me Israel will not accept that. It needs to be forced to give people their rights. So let me repeat what I have said: the solution is justice: end up the occupation and giving Palestinians their stolen rights and then the forgiveness should dominate the land of Palestine.
00:45 November 16, 2009 by krrodman

Now we can start.

I agree that the West Bank settlements are not only illegal but they are tactically and strategically useless. I have always hoped that the Israelis have developed the west bank in order to give it up in negotiations. So far that hasn't happened. In fact the opposite has happened. The Israeli religious right has staked a claim to the West Bank. Big problem. The west bank must go back to the Palestinians.

Let us assume that Israel allows Palestinians back into Israel.

What will this new country look like? Will it continue to be a parliamentary democracy? Or, will there be sharia law?

Or, let me ask the question differently. The country that you imagine is one in which Jews and Arabs coexist peacefully. Is there another country in the world right now that is a model for the "new" Israel? Frankly speaking, I can't think of one.
01:10 November 16, 2009 by goodbyeammar
Ok. let me start from where you ended your illusive comments:

1-you claim that Israel is model where which Jews and Arabs coexist peacefully. I do not know here should I cry or laugh. I do not know whether I should take you seriously or not. You call Israel for a model!!! What is about the daily massacres against Palestinians by the Israeli army? And what is about demolishing Palestinian houses in east Jerusalem? Do you call this model?! What are about demlishing the Arab homes? What is about the apartheid wall which segregates people because of their religions and ethnicity? If the occupation is model for peace then this is very silly and fanatic.

2-u wonder about how the future state will look like when Israel allows Palestinians to go back to their homes in Palestine. This is very silly because it is not important how the country will look like. What is important is to end up the occupation and bring justice to everyone. It will be democratic state, but will it have Shari law or not, the democratic process will decide. Neither I nor you will decide. But let me tell you one thing: throughout the history, Jews lived in peace under the Islamic rule. Take the example of Spain when it was ruled by Arabs. Jews enjoyed many rights but they were persecuted by the Spanish Christians when they took over their homes. That is why many Jewish in Spain immigrated with other Muslims to Morocco. Another example is Palestine: Jews enjoyed civil law under the Islamic rule. Everyone knows that when Islamic authority ruled Palestine 1300 years ago, many Jews were allowed to come to Palestine after many years of persecution under the roman rule.

Jews were persecuted in Europe. Holocaust never happened in Palestine or in the Middle East. And before anything, justice is the most important thing. I am very surprised that you are talking about fanaticism and silliness and at the same time u adopt very silly and fanatic views. The justice or the occupation does not concern u but what does concern u is how the country look like after justice. Let be whatever, but we need justice.

By the way, Israel will not allow Palestinians to go back, Israel will not give Palestinians their rights. However, all this will happen by force. There is no aggressor on earth give its victim's rights.
01:50 November 16, 2009 by Moshe
Sebseb, shalom aleichem!! You stated "While we have commemorated the fall of the Berlin wall, Israel is building one around itself. Totally pathetic."

Sebseb, do you have a door to your flat or do you just leave it open and let all the miscreants enter and do as they please? How about you Yokels, the ones whose use Sebseb's distorted views and poorlogic, have fences around your property? Why do you put doors (with locks) in your homes?

Well, Israel has been around a long time and even Muhammed in the Quran states Israel is the land of the Jewsish people.

Sebseb, also opined "Stop your demagogy Krrodman." Wow, Sebseb! Did you think of that one on your own?

Israel is hear to stay my friend and when it does disappear so will the Middle East and most of Europe. They are not going to peacefully walk into the gas chambers again. No, sir, not again.

03:08 November 16, 2009 by krrodman

We agree on many things. We agree that the actions of Israel in the west bank are repulsive and counterproductive.

I do not believe that my comments were illusive. I was looking to see how you respond. I believe in constitutional democracies with guarantees of freedom of religion, freedom of speech, an independent judiciary, and freedom of expression. I believe that all men(and women) are entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." I believe that woman are equal to men.

I completely understand that Israel has not lived up to these ideals.

I ask you this: Is there a single Arab country that even pursues these ideals?
03:54 November 16, 2009 by mkvgtired
@Gexex, it appears the same radicals that hate Israel seem to hate everyone. I guess we all deserve to cease to exist. This is less than 2.5 years.

06:36 November 16, 2009 by goodbyeammar

again, we are talking about the israeli occupation of Palestine. the arab states is not the issue. i do not think there is freedom of press or democracy in the arab world. i do not think that there is true democracy in the west. not even freedom of speech. in the west, whenever anyone criticizes or comdemns the israeli occupation of palestine, he/she will be terrorized by the lebl of anti-semitism. i know even that it is very hard to write anti-israeli comments in the mainstearm media. we see very few cases. neverethless, that does not justify the israeli occupation of palestine, whether there is democracy in the middle east or not.
11:57 November 16, 2009 by krrodman

Yes, but.......

What comes next is the great question. What will become of this new land? What will be its core political philosophy? Will it be justice for all - men, women, Jews and Muslims? or will it be another Iran or Syria? An autocracy - religious or secular- would be a completely unacceptable form of government - and frankly, all it would do would shuffle the deck. One group would benefit while the other would suffer.
14:54 November 16, 2009 by Matan
I never heard of Palestine.. I think the place you are referring to is called Israel.. where's Palestine?
18:31 November 16, 2009 by Moshe
Matan stated "I never heard of Palestine.. I think the place you are referring to is called Israel.. where's Palestine?"

Matan, Sweden is now referred as Palestine but Sweden's official Islamic name for Sweden is Swedenstan. Swedenstan is not as humanistic as they think. By being humanistic, Swedenstan open it's border to Islam.

When Swedenstan becomes fully Islamic, I wonder how many of those humanistic followers will be punished under Sharia law? Just a thought but maybe the questioned should be given to Sebseb. How about it my friend? You are an expert on Israel and Islam.

18:47 November 16, 2009 by mysticbumwipe
Dear Krodman,

Firt of all Israel has NEVER declared its borders.

So naturally neighbouring Arab countries do not recognize and accept Israel's right to exist on their land that it occupies illegally.

So a common mistake is assuming that UN Resolution 181 in 1947 recognizes and defines by international law Israel's right to exist anywhere it pleases.

It certaily DOES NOR recognize Israel's right to exist in East jerusalem.

Which is what this PARTICULAR story is about.

Whether that Resol.181 gives a right to exist on Palestinian land at all is itself questionable. But to their credit the Palestinan peoples are just asking for pre-1967 borders to be respected.

And, as most of us KNOW, this has never been on the table yet, nor has the internationally recognised right of return of the Palestinians and their descendents living lives in miserable conditions in refugee camps in Gaza and elsewhere been on the table.

You write Israel was accepted as a soverieign state but fail to say by whom?

Clearly and justifiably it has not been by the people whose land it now illegally occupies. Neither those whose land it occupies in contradiction of many subsequent UN resolutions and international law, and neither by those who were ethnically cleansed from the land 'given' to Israel in 1947 by countries who had no ownership of that land and very questionable power of jurisdiction over that land.

And it is for this reason Israel demands this as a pre-requisite to negotiations, as if this 'right to exist' on stolen land is acknowledged by the poeople who had it stolen, there would no longer need to be any negotiations, It would be a done deal and the poor Palestinians would have absolutely no legal defence left to them. This the Israeli politicians and layers know. And the west have been duped into thinking this is a reasonable request.

It isn't.
19:24 November 16, 2009 by spy

How can you make 3 posts in a row?? Are you an administrator in disguise having a bit of sport???
00:28 November 19, 2009 by totyis
@goodbyeammar on no.51:"Holocaust never happened in Palestine or in the Middle East". No, or maybe it was called ad literam "Slaughter the Jews!"

Have You heard about Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini? Bra brorsan med Adolf.

10:41 November 20, 2009 by israeli
the swedish poeple cooperated with the nazis in the final solution scheme, and now that the germans no longer operate gas chambers they operate this anti-jewish industry of hate alone. first they try to take the heart of the jews by taking jerusalem and give it to the arabs, then they want to build a "palestinian" state which will be a catastroph to all of the middle east and then they will promote a plan to destroy israel by entering millions of arabs into israel. instead of being so diplomatic and polite, our government should declare sweden as an enemy state and do with sweden what we do with our enemies. no place for antisemiotes on this earth.
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