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Sweden proposes immigrant orientation

Peter Vinthagen Simpson · 20 May 2010, 08:22

Published: 20 May 2010 08:22 GMT+02:00

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"Without knowledge of fundamental societal values an important prerequisite to be able to live and work in Sweden is lacking," writes Erik Amnå, who led the government inquiry, in a debate article in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

Amnå, whose proposal has been presented to the integration minister Nyamko Sabuni, suggests that the courses should be divided into three key areas - values (the constitutional foundations), the welfare state (public institutions), and everyday life (practical applied knowledge of how the welfare state works).

Erik Amnå proposes that municipalities be instructed to offer 60 hours of schooling to each new immigrant and advises against dividing up new arrivals according to traditional categories such as ethnicity or religious identity.

"How shall we begin the story of Sweden for the 40,000 refugees, relatives, labour market immigrants and other adult arrivals who move to Sweden every year?" asks Erik Amnå, who is a Swedish professor in political science at Örebro University.

Amnå argues that his proposal is based on a concern to ensure that all members of society have an equal chance of "on the one hand to take part in collective decisions about societal development, and on the other be able to form their lives independently and to live in freedom".

The professor draws on the thinking of German philosopher Jürgen Habermas to argue that multiculturalism can be affirmed and social cohesion clarified by "deepening the long-term constitutional solidarity" referring to the importance of acquiring knowledge of ethical norms prevalent in the Swedish constitution.

The proposal suggests that 60 hours of teaching will be offered in the native tongues of the around 30,000 who come to Sweden to live and who are issued with residence permits extending beyond 12 months.

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The courses would not be obligatory and thus if half accept the opportunity the cost would run to 90 million kronor ($12 million) per annum, Amnå estimates.

Erik Amnå underlines the importance of showing respect to the individual adults and recognises that "individuals with different backgrounds require scope for individually-adapted reflection and dialogue" and argues that teachers would need support from universities to develop the required expertise.

Peter Vinthagen Simpson (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

09:25 May 20, 2010 by Rebel
Okay, here's the crash course:

1) Dress your daughters in cheap attire that looks as if it is from a bad college sex movie from the 1980s.

2) Learn how to drink until you pass out in our own non-digested stomach contents.

3) Abandon creativity.

4) Embrace all alternative lifestyles.

5) Become an unthinking agnostic.

6) Learn not to talk in public.

7) Learn how to speak with others from the exciting CD series, "The secret to charisma" based on the speeches by Carl Bildt.

8) Slow down on freeways but speed up in parking lots.

9) Watch the Melodiefestival.

10) Badmouth the USA and Russia in that order.
09:47 May 20, 2010 by proteasome
"The courses would not be obligatory..." Until we realize after a year that only 3% of the eligible immigrants are attending.

60 hours! Amazing! (reconsider, Geneva Convention and all)


Values (the constitutional foundations)

We believe everyone is equal and democracy should be the founding rock of our society, "Hey, look out the class window it is the Royal Wedding passing by."

The welfare state (public institutions)

Don't expect the unemployment check to show up for six months but if you are running a right wing newspaper we need your bank account number for direct deposit.

Everyday life (practical applied knowledge of how the welfare state works)

1) Get job putting new tiles in bathrooms that were remodeled 24 months ago.

2) Become middle class swede, complain about rich and poor, remodel bathroom, pay worker under the table.

3) Become rich owner of house remodeling store. Take money out of country. Send children to private school in France.
10:08 May 20, 2010 by engagebrain
If courses should be compulsory.

Maybe an early mention that assaulting cartoonist is not considered part of the local culture.
10:16 May 20, 2010 by christo
lam an immigrant here but pplse gov,t dont waste money anyhow like this. let these couses be included in the swedish learnin. the teachers can let the new immigrants know about how its done here in sweden. but lets not put it big and money goes the other side.

and its better to learn the norms and values of society thru the pple u see. l dint go to school to learn how i should be in sweden but its on how u ureself be interested in relating with the society, see what they do , how they do, and learn praktically.
10:34 May 20, 2010 by G Kin
This proporsal seem to suggest that the immigrants are the problem. It is important for the new arrivals to know how the system functions, but the reality is that the difficulties they face is due to societal discrimination.

No matter howmuch knowledge immigrants have, the rules on paper, there will still be problems as long as the swedish society as a whole has a very discriminatory tendency towards foreigners.

At the moment there is a cry about future lack of skilled work force because many workers are going on retirement, YET OVER 100,000 FOREIGN BORN SWEDES ARE JOBLESS!
10:39 May 20, 2010 by flintis
Save money on these courses, refuse entry permits unless the applicant can speak & write fluent Swedeish.

Far too many unemployed & social scroungers in the country as it is.
10:42 May 20, 2010 by PonceDeLeon
Hopely these courses will be as effective as SFI, and Arbetsformedlingen. Another layer of Bureaucracy should fix things nicely... Heaven forbid, we find these people jobs..
10:47 May 20, 2010 by Kronaboy
@G Kin

Your missing the point, if you start doing something about the problem, such as the introduction of positive discrimination, you will actually start to integrate the 2/3 rd generation immigrant populations and that will mean that the ruling majority (until they have died of old age in about 30-40 years) will lose their privileged status. A cheaper option is to blame the victims (very common amongst convicted paedophiles) by turning round and blaming the fact that groups such Muslims suffer disproportionate levels of unemployment (4 to 10 times national average depending on ethnicity) because a handful of women who have elected to wear a veil across their face. Try reading Machiavelli you'll get the general gist.
10:51 May 20, 2010 by Z-man
I'm all for it if Swedishism isn't the goal, but rather a "how things work in Sweden" course combined with counseling. Could've saved me and lots of people I know heaps of trouble with cultural faux pas not knowing where to turn to for help.

I didn't know how to find my way around, and asking other Swedes was useless, because Swedes who grew up here never need to deal with or ask the things that "immigrants" need to know and deal with.

For example, in my line of work, and as an old hand at moving to a new city/country, I thought the thing to do was to network and boldly express the things you're capable of in order to find a job. But this was considered bragging due to prevailing Jantelag-type sensibilities, and I was shunned and treated with skepticism as a result.

Immigrants should learn about Swedish laws and attitudes towards spanking or threatening children, the general courtesy Swedes (are supposed to) learn in order to qualify for a driving license, bank accounts and managing pension savings (which even Swedes lack knowledge about), their rights, who to turn to when discriminated against, Swedish (non)handling of conflict; things like Swedish standards for electrical appliances, building regulations, etc. so they don't do something that disqualifies them for insurance coverage; the Swedish names of things they are looking for (which in my experience SFI may not be so helpful about)... etc. I can think of a million things.

What they should be careful NOT to do is typecast people along ethnic and cultural lines, but to see them as individuals.
10:55 May 20, 2010 by Proud-Muslim

You need first learn how to spell Swedish then give your speech.

it is amazing to see so many trolls from Israels and UK are suggesting Swedes what to do or not.

Every immigrants must obey the law of Country when they enter. there is nothing wrong to learn about Sweden system. So be happy and attend your schools. I am happy to see the government spend money to educate those who do not understand how system works.

Sweden is big country and should accept more immigrants it is good for everything.
10:55 May 20, 2010 by EtoileBrilliant
Stop immigration. Follow the Japanese example. Develop robots. Economic growth doesn't necessarily mean population growth.

11:22 May 20, 2010 by expert
In my personal opinion, it would be better to teach swedes about different cultures since they are always reserved in asking questions and are occupied by prejudices :) rather than holding classes for immigrants.
11:27 May 20, 2010 by SouthAfrican_in_Sweden
I immigrated to Sweden recently and would have no problem with learning more about Sweden. Read quite a number of books about Swedish culture and customs. I am also busy learning the language. Hopefully, I will be indistinguishable as an immigrant in a year or 2.

The reason for coming to Sweden was mainly to live and contribute to a society where the system works to for the individuals and keeps them safe. I also find it nice to live in a country where the natives don't cheat the system or each other. I am therefore also ashamed of all immigrants who I on a regular basis see cheating and taking free rides.

I am therefore conflicted as I would prefer better immigration control but that might (or might have) affect my ability to come here. But then i would have respected that also,

When in Rome...
11:55 May 20, 2010 by Z-man
@SouthAfrican_in_Sweden, you must be having a love affair with all things Sweden. But I question what you consider "Swedish" and non-Swedish. In your hopes to blend in and become "indistinguishable as an immigrant," it seems you have an outdated classification along racial lines of what is "Swedish." Swedes, come in all colors--"whites," "colored" and "blacks"--and yes, even "white" Swedes cheat the system regularly. In fact, they are the ones who commit the most serious and costly high-level economic crimes, cheating the system and society out of millions.
11:59 May 20, 2010 by engagebrain
0:55 May 20, 2010 by Proud-Muslim


¨It is amazing to see so many trolls from Israels and UK are suggesting Swedes what to do or not ¨

Another local idea concerns evidence - is there any evidence for the allegation made above ?
12:12 May 20, 2010 by Z-man

"You need first learn how to spell Swedish then give your speech.

it is amazing to see so many trolls from Israels and UK are suggesting Swedes what to do or not."

One could say the same about you: learn English syntac and grammar before communicating on an English forum. And talk about grandstanding and speeches, you certainly took the opportunity to make this all about Muslims vs. Israelis (and the "pro-Israeli") UK, didn't you?

Why not just focus on the topic--immigration policies?
12:16 May 20, 2010 by Proud-Muslim
Many Swedes do not bother to read english news. And all of the trolls came to this forums after Sweden published an article of Israeli crimes. Since that day this forum of full of those, Plus many Brits . You may need to read the threat multiculturalism. almost of all of them are Brits.

I am nice enough to answer you, otherwise many makes false allegations about Islam and Muslims and they never bother to prove what they say. so Thank to me!
12:21 May 20, 2010 by Rick Methven

Another local idea concerns evidence - is there any evidence for the allegation made above ?

Nah, he has recently started calling anybody who does not accept his views as being a troll LOL
12:54 May 20, 2010 by Nordic Prince
@SouthAfrican_in_Sweden #13

South African bloody goons should be the last lumpens on earth to express their useless opinions about any immigration's subjects.

You might be:

a) A black-moron who enjoyed being a slave for centuries, and now they evolve to kill each other.

b) A grandson of a diamond thief who come from Netherlands.

c) A grandson of a diamond thief who come from UK.

d) A Useless colored Zulu buffoon who is praying for Unkulunkulu, then, when Europeans arrived he moves to Jesus :) ‏.

Funny, ridiculous and imbecilic statements from your worthless text:

"I will be indistinguishable"

Indeed, that is so easy for south african element.

"The reason for coming to Sweden was mainly to live and contribute to a society"

BIG YES, Sverige needs retards like you who are so loyal to a level that then want to contribute to other country's society and leave their own land.

In fact, you should be arrested and rot in Robben Island for being super loyal South african goon.

"it nice to live in a country where the natives don't cheat"

Natives of Sverige are Sami people, they are the landlords who host these useless teutons. So be careful when you talk about Indigenous peoples and you better be grateful to them as well.

"I am therefore also ashamed"

South Africans should be ashamed of everything. TIA :)

"cheating and taking free rides"

Cheating is levels. However, the worst level is the one you did by coming to another country to contribute to its society and leaving your own.

"When in Rome..."

This is the funnies part! I was in south africa 3 times. But I never managed to follow your advice because it is impossible. When in south africa, do as the south African goofs do. Huh??? Speak 11 languages OR walk naked like your neighbor Himba or ….etc Ahhh

@Proud-Muslim #17

"I am nice enough" …… "so Thank to me!"

I'd be interested to read if you provide your personal point of view about arrogancy, and how it is connected to Islam. Thanks in advance!
13:00 May 20, 2010 by Kevin Harris
A great idea. How can it possibly not be good to learn as much as you can about the country that has generously agreed to take you in. 60 hours is a small price to pay for such kindness. It should be compulsory and have a test at the end; no pass, no passport. I wish this had been available when I arrived 14 years ago. I had to learn so much on my own, and I still haven't learned it all yet.

More good ideas like this please Erik Amnå.
13:02 May 20, 2010 by flintis
@ Proud -Muslim

Obviously you do not understand sarcasm or irony!! You've also changed the coarse of the thread bringing to it racial allegations & prejudices.

By the way if Muslims are so proud & religious why are they fighting each other & moving wholesale from the countries they so obviously love so much!! (just so you know, this is meant to be a sarcastic comment filled with irony).
13:02 May 20, 2010 by samwise
if there were such a great need, you would think some people would be making big money by providing that kind of service to immigrants.

I see people make a living by teaching languages or teaching driving skills, both immigrants and non-immigrants pay for that type of knowledge.

I guess the idea behind it is that people don't know what's good for themselves so the almighty government has to step in.
13:03 May 20, 2010 by bbeynch
This is a step in the right direction. Sweden must make a lot greater effort making, sorely needed, immigrants adopt Swedish habits. But language classes alone are not enough. It must also include cultural adaptation, including eating stekt fläsk and inlagd sill, celebrating Christmas, and celebrating June 6th in a patriotic manner. Welcome all ye who wish to become Swedish! Raise the Swedish flag!
13:07 May 20, 2010 by flintis

They don't have to go as far as celebrating xmas & eating bacon, getting a wash & using toilet paper would be a start!!
13:08 May 20, 2010 by calebian22
Considering the ridiculous number of agencies and authorities in Sweden, I don't see how, Red Tape 101, could be a bad thing.
13:22 May 20, 2010 by ehwhat?
All joking aside, it is inconceivable that a modern complex culture, such as Sweden, would assume that people from truly different backgrounds would understand it without help.

Most places make "citizenship" classes a requirement for, well, becoming a citizen. The classes cover traditions, cultural icons, and how government works (or not work).

These classes are compulsory, not optional.
13:26 May 20, 2010 by Nordic Prince
@bbeynch #23

Your sick comment reminds me of a crime called "Forced Assimilation"

@flintis #24

"using toilet paper would be a start"

I bet that you don't mean Muslim immigrants here. Because, when it comes to that, they are way cleaner than zillion of you, Because the majority of them use water, then, toilet paper for drying.
13:29 May 20, 2010 by InterceptorZone
@ Nordic Prince

I am not from South Africa..

"Natives of Sverige are Sami people, they are the landlords who host these useless teutons. So be careful when you talk about Indigenous peoples and you better be grateful to them as well.."

What do you mean by this ? I think you re sick my Prince.. Natives of Sverige are civilized people, yes.. they are kind.. yes but not Sami :-) Germans also thought the same in 1939 and you know the consequences..

We are not useless teutons my Prince, we are engineers, scientists, professors, technicians, researchers, who contribute to the prosperity of Sweden. We come here because conditions are good for work.. we are grateful to Sverige people, we respect them and we respect the Swedish Laws as well.
13:45 May 20, 2010 by flintis
@Nordic Prince

Why do you have to make racist insinuations?

"Then hopefully they wash their hands with soap & water"
13:50 May 20, 2010 by InterceptorZone

That's right :-) we wash our hands with soap.. Try it.. you will enjoy it :-)))
13:52 May 20, 2010 by bob3000
Only on the present 'thelocal' - could you get such a lot of whiners, whining over an innocuous article about a vanilla conclusion, in a committee report.

Seriously, how can you be bleating over the fact that...drum roll... the government has concluded that they need to offer a -free- orientation course. If you feel this is news (journalism)...feel passionate about it, need to comment - get skype, call talk radio in your country of origin.

Lots of places offer orientation courses - even businesses, why not a country?

When 'thelocal' started the forums were full of people (expats) who actually lived in Sweden, asking and offering advice on getting things done. Getting local ID, validity of foreign driving licenses, etc, etc.

Now it's full of those who seem to think their "mental diarrhea vomit" just has to and really should be shared.

1. Non-residents: these anti-Sweden jibes are a waste of your time and ours, not many Swedes on these English forums. Perhaps, you should try learning Swedish and go somewhere there are real Swedes. They might care more than we do. You have chosen the wrong audience and venue.

2. Expats - one would think you were being forced to be in Sweden - you could always go home and then you can join a forum for returned expats and blow on about how the homeland has declined in your absence.

If you take your rose-tinted expat glasses off, you might see things ain't quite so chipper in the UK/US/EU/ -pick a place- [delete as applicable] right now.

..and we Brits are not historically famous for our love of foreigners either, over the pond, they are not known for their tolerance (professing beliefs and actions being quite different things - I think you call the mis-match BS).

In fact which country is as perfect as it likes to see itself...no-where, that's where.
13:57 May 20, 2010 by darryl74
@Nordic Prince

Robben Island is not a prison any more. It hasn't been for the last 19 years.

Sorry I just have to get this out my system... Nordic Prince? HAHAHAHAHAHA
14:05 May 20, 2010 by Petalpusher
So will they teach real Swedish too? As opposed to the nonsense at SFI?
14:10 May 20, 2010 by SouthAfrican_in_Sweden

You seem to misunderstand what I mean by blending in and has nothing to do with the color of my skin. What I do want to do is speak Swedish and learn the culture, understand the people and be part of a society without standing out. Also, although Swedes cheat the system (as all people do), the level of cheating here are way more acceptable than in many other countries. There is no way you can compare the cheating here with that of South Africa.

@Nordic Prince

Harsh words, I guess you had some bad experience in South Africa. However, my ancestry are complex, and I have genes from both european and african people (as most south africans do). Strangely enough I have some nordic ancestry as well.

My apologies for using the word natives to refer to Swedish people, but you got what I meant. On this point however, you must be slightly ignorant on almost all human history. All populations, including nordic people, sami people, bantu speaking people, san people, etc. have moved into other individual's territory and conflict arose. These events only vary in time. I.e. no ones ancestors are blameless for the current state of the world (good or bad).

I am also confused that you would not want a contribution from a tax paying individual who contribute to your country's future (and not only in terms of money). My skills are currently better used in Sweden than they could be in South Africa. If you really are so against all things not nordic (including the chance of having some positive influence from outside), you should probably not read these kind of reports (or any newspaper in english or mix with anyone except a first degree relative).
14:10 May 20, 2010 by Crocs
I think it'd be a great idea for classes about Swedish culture possibly integrate them with swedish lessons with SFI - It can only be a good thing if the government is trying to offer further free lessons, maybe now we'll find the answer to why Swedes sing about frogs during Midsummer :)
14:10 May 20, 2010 by curiousaboutwriting
God damn it! I wonder where on earth it has been proved that population translates into economics? why more immigrants your highness immigrations officer. There are already enough immigrants as it is. where is the bugdet for more and ontop of it TRAINING. why not then import highloy skilled labour is thats what the country needs? why recruits, then train them? isnt it not a waste of time , resources when they are not even there in the first place.

I agree with the japaneese ROBOT approach. much more practical hahahaah
14:28 May 20, 2010 by Åskar

No need to apologize for using the word native. Nordic Prince seems to be a bit deluded about the whole thing.
14:36 May 20, 2010 by Nordic Prince
@InterceptorZone #28

"Natives of Sverige are civilized people, yes.. they are kind.. yes but not Sami"

Go and read some history books, then, open your stinky-mouth.

@flintis # 29

It is not racism, it is honesty which your personality lacks it.

@darryl74 #32

duh? you bloody muppet. It seems that you are blind and you didn't see what I wrote above!

I mentioned "TIA" = "This is Africa", means: its the continent of diseases , ignorance, crimes and stupidity. Congratulations to them :)

It is the only continent where the Time doesn't passes by. Therefore, you lumpen, when you talk to african you shouldn't consider the time as a factor at all.

BTW, you need glasses. Also, you should be grateful to me for enriching your little brain about some info that you've never heard of.

@SouthAfrican_in_Sweden #34

"I guess you had some bad experience in South Africa"

Not really. I used to go to Namibia and hunt Kudus with my German friends, and we also go to South Africa and enjoy watching how Nigerian men are pimping your women :)

Also, South Africans has such a great experience with nuclear weapons. They proved to the whole world that they don't deserve any thing, and they should only bow to their American/European masters day and night.

"I am also confused"

The majority of the south africans are confused goons. So you don't need to mention that.

"My skills are currently better used in Sweden than they could be in South Africa."

Apart from the funny English accent, I extremely doubt that Sverige needs anything from any African.

@ Åskar #37

"seems to be a bit deluded"

FYI, I am one of those Sami people, Therefore, you and your barbaric teutons must be grateful for.
14:39 May 20, 2010 by soultraveler3
This sounds like a good idea, it should be mandatory as well.

I also like the idea of passing a cultural test, in swedish, before getting your citizenship.

It would also be a good idea to make immigrants sign a statement saying that they agree with and will adapt to some the cultural ways of western society.

Not changing religion or leaving their own culture completly behind, but things like allowing female children to go to school and allowing women to be outside the home alone or working and without being covered head to toe etc.
14:48 May 20, 2010 by SouthAfrican_in_Sweden
@Nordic Prince,

Ok, you win. May you live in a world where everyone are exactly like you.
15:01 May 20, 2010 by Nordic Prince
@SouthAfrican_in_Sweden #40

Whatever !

It is not about winning, obviously because it's a complete privilege for you to lose a discussion with me.

But the whole deal is that, I want to teach morons(like: You) how to survive in this world. Besides, I want to draw imbeciles's attention to the fact that the West has destroyed countries and people because of colonization.
15:21 May 20, 2010 by Jannik

"it seems you have an outdated classification along racial lines of what is "Swedish." Swedes, come in all colors--"whites," "colored" and "blacks"--and yes, even "white" Swedes cheat the system regularly."

Not true. There is something called "ethnic swedes", which are a people of north european decent.

The "colored" and "black" swedes you are refering to, are swedish citizens but nor ethnic swedes.

Nice try, but your attempt at defining away swedish ancestry is easy to spot.

This attempt exemplifies how multiculturalists are filled with hate towards european people.

When will your treacherous hate-mongoring stop?
15:33 May 20, 2010 by InterceptorZone
@ Nordic Prince

My little prince with so narrow vision of things.. You seem to be in a wonderful dream.. I think you should read some history book about your ancestors and how barbarians they use to be.. Swedish history like the history of remaining European countries has seen "light" starting from the sixteenth century, although kingdom of Sweden was the first country the establish modern structures of the army (with divisions and battalions - Gustave II Adolphe)

You are here enjoying life, having fun and pretend to be Lord of the Land and cultivated enough to tell people about history books..

I have been here in Sweden enough time to judge you my Prince, you don't have any cultural background, you are closed, you socialize with people like you and you don't know anything about real live.. live of warriors who are fighting for their lands, they are the real Land Lords every where in the globe, not you, hunting kudus in Namibia, racist colonialist..

You have just brought shame to scientists, artists, thinkers and great men of Sweden who are brilliant and modest people.
15:39 May 20, 2010 by curiousaboutwriting
Folks what are grieving about? doesnt a society perserve the rights to define its territorial rights? well just like many other societies sweden is no exception , she can classify categiricaly her creteria to whom should enjoy the privilegdes of being her member. so its quit simple you take it or leave it!!
15:56 May 20, 2010 by Nordic Prince
@InterceptorZone #43

WOW !!! What a striking intellegance ?

You just proved to the whole world how democratic, liberal , modern, civilized and cultured you are :)

Sick elements (Like: You) are the only ones who transform into enemies when others have different opinions. You are exactly 100% of the putz George W. Bush's worthless mentality which reasons like "You're either with us or against us".
15:59 May 20, 2010 by Z-man

Nice try, but nationality, ethnicity and culture are spearable things, which WAS MY POINT.

You ought to read the context before jumping on me. There SEEMED to be a racial context in @SouthAfrican_in_Sweden's post about blending in and not cheating like the other immigrants he "sees" on subways, thus my TENTATIVE remarks. However, @SouthAfrican_in_Sweden has since stated his remarks were ethnically/racially based.

FYI, I am against so-called multi-cultralists. Nobody was trying to define away Swedish ancestry.

I'm bowing out of this. The 2 times I posted here, I got jumped on by people who can't read, with too much time on their hands itching for a fight. If the content is any indication, then the level of intelligence of some posters here is extremely low. I'm outta here!
16:06 May 20, 2010 by AnotherSouthAfricanInSweden
@Nordic Prince #41

What lessons do you want to teach us? What difference would it make if we agree with you about colonization by the west? What do you want us to do? Make war on the west to punish them? It's a little late now for that now.

It seems you want to other people to agree with your view of the world, but I am sorry (for you) to tell you that no one that matters are listening and everyone else do not care. And if anyone did, it would make no difference.

So all that you are doing is that you make noise, aggravate others and think they are all idiots for not agreeing with you. Why not just leave the us "idiots" alone, since your are just wasting your time reasoning with us idiots.
16:10 May 20, 2010 by Z-man

nationality, ethnicity and culture are separable things, which WAS MY POINT.

However, @SouthAfrican_in_Sweden has since stated his remarks were NOT ethnically/racially based.

OK, NOW I'm outta here for good!
16:16 May 20, 2010 by InterceptorZone
@ Nordic Prince

Who has talked about democracy and civilization ??

I was sure that you are a little bit disturbed about notions.. :-)

Please try to concentrate:

I have referred to basics of culture: respecting others

I transform to an enemy because you are not sharing my opinion.. ok let us suppose so..

Your case is worse.. you know why ?

Because you have insulted foreigners in a very bad way, you are an enemy just because others are different :-)

Even-though this topic was a matter of facts, expecting people to judge the events not the human beings, you have judged persons, this is urge me to not respect you anymore.. :-)

F*** Bush..

But still speaking about basic things, Bush is better than you, he has accepted to work with Africans since they are using better their skills in the US..

Ultimately, I wish I offer you this song :

F*** you very very much
16:26 May 20, 2010 by calebian22
South African-

It is best to ignore Nordic Prince. His idea of dialogue and debate is typical of 6 year olds saying that their Dad can beat up your Dad. He "wins" when he calls you a lumpen or a moron. Apparently the concept of an ad hominem fallacy was not something he ever learned. Sarcasm and clever retorts are also lost upon him. Don't bother.
16:34 May 20, 2010 by InterceptorZone
@calebian22 #50

You're right :-)

I am not South African by the way :-))
16:49 May 20, 2010 by GefleFrequentFlyer
Good idea Sweden!

You can teach these "immigrants" all you want about swedish society and culture, but I will wager the farm that they will still not choose to "assimilate".
17:07 May 20, 2010 by Bostonexpat
seems like a decent idea. Perhaps add a few hours of basic functioning in Sweden type topics....covering such things as skatteverket/filing, owning a car, national medical system etc;
17:10 May 20, 2010 by Uncle
G-Kin. Blaming the Swedes does not make any sense. Even according to Alexandra Pascalidou, who always blames the west in all the failures of all the failed nations and the swedes in crime, jobelessnes and radicalism of the mulism immigrants (let's be true with ourselves, the classes are not directed towards the german catholics), the Swedes were very welcoming turkish immigration in the 60's and 70's.

According to her, it was actually cool and exotic to hire a turk, have a turk as a friend or a colleague. Until Turks themselves ruined it. Of course SHE describes it as if the Swedes all of a sudden stopped liking the turks, w/o getting into details.

Swedes ARE racist, but for a REASON. They did not start from racism, but came to it and the trend is spreading.

Funny enough you provided the answer to you claim that there are 100K jobeless immigrants when there is a lack of SKILLED workforce. SKILLED...

@calebian22 - I simply do not get how can this shaman be racist against both blacks and whites at the same time! I mean - clearly he has no agenda, but to insult everyone he can. I mean, it is even impossible to be insulted by him, since he tries so hard. Indeed like an orphan 6 y/o.

How didn't they ban him yet?
17:14 May 20, 2010 by Catch
I'm no expert, but my own experience here in the US suggests that most immigrants tend to stick together within their own ethnic communities. While this makes them feel more comfortable, it also makes it more difficult to assimilate them (if that's the proper word) into a greater national society. To some extent, such enclaves of immigrants can contribute significantly to a national culture. For example, San Francisco's Chinatown is a very interesting place to visit, and we have a fantastic choice of high quality Asian restaurants that would not exist were it not for immigrants. Difficulties arise, though, when the size of the immigrant population becomes so large that it threatens the established system either through excessive demand on resources provided by others or through cultural or political clashes with that system. The US, though large, is having difficulties in some regions with the demand on resources but not so much with cultural or political issues. I would suggest that properly managed immigration, where the newcomers can be encouraged to "fit in" without surrendering their own ethnicity, can significantly enrich any national culture. We are actively struggling with these issues over here.
17:15 May 20, 2010 by jimthat
this compulsory or forced assimilation could be best called infiltration .the steps to the total turning upside down of the sweden we inherited from our ancestors are going all theway up .we can only watch powerlesly this day to day little steps that makes us unsensible to the big transformation that we are experimenting .this in my opinion is integration to the higest extreme the next step could be making the childs at school to seat one swede -one immigrant and make them repeat integrationist slogans .that would be the final brain washing

why dont we spend some money more wisely and teach our childs (and adults too ) the traditional north european values ?
17:58 May 20, 2010 by Nordic Prince
@AnotherSouthAfricanInSweden #47

"What difference would it make"

It makes a lot, but it is pretty clear that you are a loser who has no winning spirit to defend your own. I am sad to see you like that. Therefore, keep your head down and spent your entire life worshiping the West.

@InterceptorZone #49

It seems that people are used to sing that song a lot for you!

@calebian22 #50

How is the geography classes are going? Do you know where is Yemen now? Shall I expose you to all readers and give them the URL where you presented yourself as an outstanding goon?

@Uncle #54

It is very interesting that you talk about Turks. And it is even more interesting to hear that worthless and corrupted countries such as: Romania, Hungary, Poland,.... are becoming members of the funny EU while Turkey is not. Huh? I forgotten that EU is a Christian club.

@jimthat #56

"why dont we spend some money more wisely and teach our childs (and adults too ) the traditional north european values ?"

Be specific, which values are you talking about?

Values of the Barbaric teutons, Viking gangs, left pary, right party....etc ?

I guess most of the governments are doing good job in feeding our kids with milk how to prevent poor muslim immigrants of practicing their basic rights (Religion, Culture). We taught them how to prevent Sami people "Landlords" to start schools with their own language till 1992. We taught them to support the Israeli killers in Palestine?

What are the results???

Alas, results are pretty bad! Our kids become ill-mannered elements, and the best example is: @Uncle
19:05 May 20, 2010 by superturbo
"nordic prince" is definetely not of sami origin. I would not be surprised it's just Newyork-växjö with yet another account... a first-class troll who seems enjoying picking fights with almost everone else.
21:23 May 20, 2010 by Michael84
I suggest, they teach immigrants about Swedish society in SFI where they teach them the language. That would make a perfect context.
23:01 May 20, 2010 by Just_Kidding
It is a good idea...in different societies, the rules of engagement are different and it could cause lots of troubles for an immigrant and the host society.

I suggest recording these lectures (with subtitles in different languages) and putting them on Youtube (I have seen physics or economics lectures from MIT and Berkeley this way)... or offering immigrants cheap (or free) DVD's of these lectures... It would cost less for Sweden and would be easier for immigrant to use it.
23:25 May 20, 2010 by glamshek

Who told you that EU is a Christian Club? I was also thinking the same way when I had not seen it myself. By the way how often do you observe the Church rules?
23:57 May 20, 2010 by Just_Kidding
My only concern is that they may show a sugar and candy picture of the facts to the naive immigrants rather than the useful details and skills.

Finding a proper job is the most important part of integration in a society. So it will be good if they consult with corporations who had difficulties when they had hired immigrants; Hopefully immigrants graduated from these classes would be more successful and it would encourage others to attend as well.
02:10 May 21, 2010 by amirhosein
Can we have an online version of what they want to teach immigrants?

I came to Sweden (Göteborg) for studies last september, and had a hard time finding any books on Swedish lifestyle and society. Finally, what I could find to read were these books;

- "The Xenophobe's Guide to the Swedes"

- "The Swedish Code; What makes the Swedish so Swedish?"

Though, those didn't reveal that;

- urbanization in Sweden took place as recent as 1930-40s,

- being unsociable and standoffish is not a choice the people opt, but a result of either lack of urban/civil social skills or unwillingness to socialize

- despite how it looks, not many are light blonde, but rather they dye/highlight their hair, more than 80% of the girls, and many men; reminiscing their bright hair color in early childhood, which darkened with age.

- Sweden was not rich at all until very recently, i.e. 1800-1900s

- Sweden was not--literally--neutral in the World War; Sweden let Germans cross herself to invade its neighbor, Norway.

- Sweden has troops in Afghanistan now

- I'm looked upon as a "svartskalle", a derogatory term, regardless of who I am. Enough to make me feel mistreated as a second-class citizen.

- Swedish people with international exposure are much better-mannered and sociable.

- Ingvar Kamprad, founder of IKEA , is an exceptionally honorable person, who had contributed much to the Swedish society and whoever lives here.
07:50 May 21, 2010 by Douglas Garner
Instead of all the negative comments, lets try staying with the topic! I suggest that a less intensive course of study be required as a condition to and prior to issue of an immigration visa. Lets just make sure that new immigrants know what-where they are moving into.
09:16 May 21, 2010 by Nordic Prince
@Just_Kidding #60

"offering immigrants cheap (or free) DVD's of these lectures"

Why on earth when it comes to immigrants you want to save money and offer them cheap things with low quality? Is it because you think that they don't deserve anything? Or why should the government pay for educating them?

You should be ashamed for suggesting that!

Swedish researchers waste zillion in studying useless stuff, but when it comes to important issue like immigrants no need to spend some money, let's save the money, they don't deserve any services.

If you are a Swede, then, you are a big shame.

If you are an immigrant, then, you are simply like other losers who sold their countries, families and everything just to live in Sweden and worship Swedes.

@glamshek #61

The same resource that told me about the fact that the shoes of Yazid and Mu'awiya worth 10 X times your tribe (Including you).

@amirhosein #63

"contributed much to the Swedish society and whoever lives here"

WOW !!! I'm impressed. If your dad works with Ingvar Kamprad and makes crazy money, then, yes I understand what you said. BUT it is funny how you generalized that he has spiritual and sensational impact on everyone.

@Douglas Garner #64

Instead of lecturing people, Let's try solve the poor asian women in Sweden.

Basically, all the losers of the Swedish society who are rejected and can't get a lady. They, fly to Philippines, Thailand,... and "buy=marry", YES BUY a poor women from there who is dreaming of having good life, so this useless Swede is her only option. Sadly, many of those animals mistreat these Asian women and they take advantage that they are poor, needy and don't know they system and the law.

Being a Human doesn't mean paying taxes.
13:31 May 21, 2010 by lil575
I agree - and happy to see that some of the nastier comments were removed.

It would be nice, upon moving to Sweden, to have some guidance in navigating the various social agencies; to learn about taxes, healthcare, schooling, etc. It doesn't have to be about assimilation.
16:04 May 21, 2010 by Nika-NM
Of course, this won't swallow the whole problem of immigration in a jiffy, but it's a more step change movement towards the process of integration. Still it would've been worse had the Government remained stationary. And there were several comments trying to prove that this all go awry in the end because those immigrants aren't pliable enough and won't give way to be nurtured Swedish lore, but this programme ain't going to be a compulsory one, so there'll be more interest and determination involved in this.

It's like a military case, if you command an army of draftees then it's mediocre, but if it consists of contractors then it's of the prime quality.
17:30 May 21, 2010 by bichito
Library of the Congress of Argentina,

Buenos Aires, May 21, 2010.

I agree mostly with all the comments but in my case I can not understand why the Embassy of Sweden here in Buenos Aires, does not only give enough information but also lets the secret services of Argentina enter to its office and manage documents related with my refugee visa.

Not the swedish citizen pays its taxes for the Pink House then take decisions concerning with the Government of Sweden and the Swedish Society.

Should there is no law in Argentina, there should be a law inside the Sweden's Embassy . After all, inside the Sweden's Embassy the territory ought to be swedish.-

Contador Ricardo Alberto Zavi-

Universidad Nacional de Cuyo

Passport # 8,361,366

Michigan I.D.-U.S.A. Z-100-738-263-4
22:29 May 21, 2010 by Taxalien
My proposal, a 60 hour orientation for all politicians on being elected and taking up office:

1) don't break the constitution

2) don't spend money you don't have

3) don't tell the people big government creates jobs

4) don't try to get more money from the poor working class under the pretext that you are doing this to give them more benefits. taxes taken >> benefits paid.

5) don't enact any more laws from ideas you came up with on a whim while being pissed out of your head with alcohol or coffein intoxification or after bed talk after your 5 minute stunt with your blonde secretary

6) remember you serve the people and that the people knows far better than you do about the real economy

7) if you never had a job in the private sector until you made it into politics, what are you doing here and why do you think you know anything about the real world until you do? Resign immediately and report to the unemployment office.

8) stop forcing people to take benefits when they arrive in sweden. if you do, you'll notice that taxes come down and as they do, hey ho they get jobs too.

9) stop pretending we can have unlimited immigrants here, while through law and regulations preventing anyone from overseas from performing their professions. Stop the idea that immigrants need to be spoon fed swedish and that educational standards are so poor abroad that anything anyone learnt outside in the real world where the rest of 5 billion+ humanoids actually lives.

10) when you have run out of ideas or you realise you have nothing more to add any more, quit without retreating.

07:08 May 22, 2010 by Playethic
#6 is a curious one -- has The Local written about that before? I have noticed that in Sweden - it didn't take me too many days to realize that speaking to someone on transit, or while waiting for a bus or elevator, seems to make Swedes quite uncomfortable, or disapproving - or both. It can feel a very isolating country to move to. Swedes are well-travelled, so I am sure they have noticed this distinction compared to openness/friendliness of some other countries. It can be quite isolating, as a newcomer. I am curious why readers think this might be, or how it originated. It can come across as a lack of warmth in people, but I think might be more caution, or not wanting to act inappropriately? Anyway, I am just curious why - socially, historically, whatever - Swedes think this is so. It is not just Sweden, with smaller distinctions ln other Scandinavian countries. Eg. a Canadian-Dane who moved away said more people would speak to her her first three weeks after moving than spoke to her in nine years in Denmark. I know your list was for fun, but I'd be curious to hear comments...
10:53 May 22, 2010 by DamnImmigrant
Mandatory classes!

Free Speech in Sweden, Europe and the world - ABSOLUTELY needed for many non-western immigrants

Family Structures and Responsibilities - Swedish legal view.

World Religions. - complete discussion so those denied are exposed

Introduction to Art. - another area of education sadly lacking in much of the world

Swedish Law. - I still have no training in this

Environmental Issues pertaining to Sweden. - Forest, land usage and LITTERING!
11:22 May 22, 2010 by zooeden
Yhe first two comments cracked me up, I laughed so bad!!!! Yep... Don´t really care bout the rest, but check it out immigrant orientation after what??? 50 years???

My favourite group has to be the balcans, all with their disputes and then sweden takes them and put albans, serbians, macedonians, kosovars all together again cause they´re seeking asylum, and then its hell in swedish territory again, personal wars haunt many, many of the ones who come...
17:29 May 22, 2010 by Tall swede
Swedish society 101

1. If you hit old ladies in the face, they might die. Do not do this!

2. Dont hit kids. Just as you dont kick dogs, hit old ladies or pick fights

3. Dont steal. People might want to keep their property

4. If you call Sweden a crappy country the day after the largest search after your hidden daughter, go back to your old non-crappy country then!

5. Dont rape girls. Women do in fact have the right to say no, even if you are really horny!

6. If immigrants get lower grades in school, burning down the school isnt going to help.

7. If you dont trust the society, throwing rocks at fire fighters or ambulances dont make society trust you.

8. You make friend by being nice. Threatening people dont give you respect, people start to dislike you instead.

9. In fights, its honorable with fair fights. In fact, being 12 to 1 is considered dishonest, even if your clan thinks winning is th only honorable thing even if it was an unfair fight.
17:38 May 22, 2010 by Leo Danial
I still think that the main & urgent problem in Sweden is creating more jobs!

A big country like Sweden with a poulation less than 10 million people ... should be a country of opportunities ... just compare it to Holland which has an area of 10% of Sweden's area & with more than 17million in population ... this is a challenge for the Swedish Intelligence & creativity to create more jobs & working opportunities ... I don't know what the economists & business adminstration proffesors & specialists are really doing ... maybe just trying to Americanize the economy more & more!
21:19 May 22, 2010 by cattie
Putting the lectures online or on DVD misses the point. This is a make-work scheme for native Swedes in Larareforbundet.

check out Hipp Hipp Bli Svensk on You Tube. It is laugh out loud funny for any immigrant to Sweden, it is in Swedish.
00:26 May 23, 2010 by Just_Kidding
@ cattie...

you are right... some times the main idea is creating jobs for few teachers.

I graduated from an engineering school in west... the university had a big career center that could get few job openings (compared to the size of the university) . They kept telling and telling graduates and students how to make their resume attractive...(a zero sum game).

Very few students spent their time learning skills that was not taught in this school. Skills such as computer aided design and manufacturing, starting businesses and computer programming, mainly from online sources, rather than hoping that the school would do something for them.
01:12 May 23, 2010 by Uncle
@Tall swede may I add?

10. Don't try to get down a Blocket price by calling people "kompis" after you already seemingly agreed to the selling price and don't lie about the quality of your merchandise.

11. Don't describe wrapping your women in rags, preventing them from studying, controlling their movement and cirumsicing them - "tradition".

12. Don't evade taxes by going into bankruptcy every time your "new business" government assistance runs out and transferring it to your closest cousin.

13. Don't blame Swedes in US invasion of Iraq, especially if you are an Iranian and actually don't give a ...

14. If your only education is 2 classes, don't cry that you are not made a bank chef.

15. Education in Sweden is free. Do not excuse your incompetence with the argument that "svener do not educate you". Nobody will wake you up every morning to the school.

16. Do not go and live in the area of your entire family and their friends and then complain that you cannot find a job. There can be only so many pizzerias and ditch digging jobs in one area.

17. If you do not like it SO much that you would prefer and actually harm government officials, pack your things and have a wonderful flight back or to any other place!
13:21 May 23, 2010 by fabandy
09:25 May 20, 2010 by Rebel

Okay, here's the crash course:

1) Dress your daughters in cheap attire that looks as if it is from a bad college sex movie from the 1980s.

2) Learn how to drink until you pass out in our own non-digested stomach contents.

3) Abandon creativity.

4) Embrace all alternative lifestyles.

5) Become an unthinking agnostic.

6) Learn not to talk in public.

7) Learn how to speak with others from the exciting CD series, "The secret to charisma" based on the speeches by Carl Bildt.

8) Slow down on freeways but speed up in parking lots.

9) Watch the Melodiefestival.

10) Badmouth the USA and Russia in that order

Absolutely brilliant, you should be milk monitor for today!!!
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