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Sweden launches inquiry into forced marriage

AFP/The Local · 21 May 2010, 07:29

Published: 21 May 2010 07:29 GMT+02:00

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"Many times these types of marriages are entered into abroad and often affect girls and boys, young women and young men, who often live in a reality of honour-related violence and oppression," integration and equality minister Nyamko Sabuni and justice minster Beatrice Ask said in a joint statement on Thursday.

The ministers said the investigation, which will be led by the former chancellor of justice, Göran Lambertz, will seek to gather more information on forced marriages and marriages involving minors, with the aim of "suggesting measures to bring about a strong protection against such marriages."

"We know that for some young people the summer holidays are a cause of concern. We know that every summer a number of young people are forced to travel to their parent's home countries for marriages against their will," the statement read.

On May 1st 2004, Sweden changed its marriage laws to make marriage under the age of 18 illegal, even if the marriage was entered into abroad. The government wants to see if further restrictions are required and enforceable such as against so-called proxy marriages to try to ensure that marriages are entered into voluntarily by all parties.

Story continues below…

Until then, it was possible for citizens of countries were the legal marrying age was under 18 to marry in Sweden from the age of 15 and up without requesting special permission.

AFP/The Local (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

08:39 May 21, 2010 by Kronaboy
Here we go again, nasty Muslims are the problem, discrimination in employment forcing people to live in run down parts of the country with lower standards of education social welfare is not. I was reading the socialdemokraterna manifesto a while back and I couldn't help but notice that while there was a general commitment to race equality when it came to issue of employment equality it restricted it self to sex discrimination; I think that speaks volumes at the state of Swedish politics and should be of particular concern bearing in mind the 2000 Directive has been in force since 2004.
08:56 May 21, 2010 by Keith #5083
Anyone who has personal knowledge of this problem understands the conflicts in families that arise from the 'old traditions'. I have some empathy and personal experience with that. However, when people move to Sweden then it is the law,custom and traditions of Sweden that must be honoured.

I feel there is a simple solution to this issue of "arranged marriages" with a younger generation that have been in Sweden for 10 years or more. If the family wishes to arrange a marriage to a person who is a non-EU, non-Swede, then the Swedish resident marriage partner should be required to go and live in the country of the other partner to the marriage for a period of at least 2 years at the expense of his/her own family here in Sweden, leaving job, social benefits, etc.etc..

Equally, where there is an attempt to force an 'arranged marriage' upon a young person here in Sweden then the 'immigrant parents' should be required to return to their original country and the threat imposed by their presence

removed from the young person's life.

The rules need to be harsh if this abominable scenario, that destroys lives, breaks hearts and causes 'back-door immigration', is to be adequately reformed.

If parents cannot or will not accept the choice, freely made by their adult (18+) son or daughter, then they should return to the tradition from whence they came as they have no intention of integrating into Swedish society.
09:00 May 21, 2010 by Twiceshy
this is islam sweden. islams profit married a child. how can you go against islam? you can not make a joke about their profit or you will be attacked in public or have your house fire bombed. this is islam and soon sweden will have to give in to the laws of islam or fight terror on the streets.
09:08 May 21, 2010 by peropaco
Beatrice Ask looks like she is ready for a drink...
09:25 May 21, 2010 by Proud-Muslim
Twiceshy thanks for lying!

I read on the forums long time ago that Old Swedish men go to thailand and china and marry young girls and bring them to Sweden to open massage center or use them badly for sex. not sure if its true.

Islam is against forced marriage and this type of culture issues must be stop.

girl and boy should be both happy to get married. This is what Islam says and law.
09:39 May 21, 2010 by bolababu
@Keith, i agree 100% with everything you have said except for the fact that immigrants are always blamed for the failure of multi-cultural integration but it is infact the swedish society that is being extremely resistant toward integration. You'll never know until you've been there.
09:48 May 21, 2010 by occassional
Every single time some issue like this crops up and involves mainly foreigners (let's leave it at that), I wonder what is it that Sweden has/n't done to still have to put up with such *hit.
09:53 May 21, 2010 by calebian22
Protecting children is never a bad idea. Only a pathetic insecure loser marries a minor. Some countries call it culture, tradition, religion, who cares what is the reason? Don't live in Sweden, if you can't follow the laws of Sweden.
10:09 May 21, 2010 by bolababu
this definitely cuts across all cultures, this is not just a foreigner's thing as speculated. for God's sake i see 60 year old swedes with 17 year old thais everyday!
10:31 May 21, 2010 by boby
Cant believe how primitive are the Swedes. What a shame, a country that pretends to show the way in terms of pluralism, feminism and socialism, has an issue with such an ugly phenomena as child-marriage. I guess it is all a phased, in the base it seems that Swedes still harvest sick behaviors long forgotten in the civilized world.
10:41 May 21, 2010 by Nordic Prince
It is VERY interesting to see Swedes talk about Marriage :), sounds exactly like Latinos or Africans talk about Rocket science and the astronomy!

The Swedish family is well-know as one of the worst families structures ever. Complete disrespect for the parents (Sometimes parents get insulted and beaten up), extremely high divorce rate and most importantly people do not get married which is the reason why Sweden has low popualtion and beg immigrants to come.

Fatheads must differentiate between "Forced-Marriages" and "Arranged-Marriages". As for, "Forced-Marriages" I'm absolutely sure it is a BIG lie made by the West against other ethnic groups to picture them badly. Parents' ultimate dream is to see their sons and daughters happy because they feel their happyness and success depend 100% on their kid's happyness. If there is a dad or mother who are not like that e.g. Josef Fritzl , then that is a sick individual case.

As for "Arranged-Marriages" it is such a great idea and I completely support it. Swedes and the West in general is a lewd society, where you can find a the Swedish teenager girl has lost her virginity at age 15, and when she get 22 years, she is already slept with 44 guys. Therefore, Swedes and the West must recognize a simple fact that Other people are not like them. Indian girl (Regardless her religious background) isn't willing to hump guys like the Swedish girl.

That's way "Arranged-Marriages" is such a decent and a great way, where families introducing the girl and guy to each other, and if they like each other, then Congrats, otherwise, if the girl didn't like him or the guy didn't like here then everyone moves on. "Arranged-Marriages" is only a way to get the guy and the girl to meet, because according to the social construction they guys and girls are shy and their culture is different.

I want Swedish girls to be honest and answer me: which one would you prefer, meeting your hubby in a night club or meeting him through a mutual friends at friends' house?

@Keith #2

"it is the law,custom and traditions of Sweden that must be honoured"

Bad familiies are practicing forced marriage, and you want apply forced assimilation.

What a sick mentality...

" feel there is a simple solution to this issue"

Indeed, everything is so simple for douchebags!

It is so great to see buggers are classifying human being openly "who is a non-EU, non-Swede"

"removed from the young person's life"

Yeah, maybe take them out is a better option ?

"then they should return to the tradition from whence they came"

This is the best statement ever! Sweden and the West in general claim democracy when it suits them. They have their own definitions for equality.

@Twiceshy #3 @calebian22 #8

Everyone knows that you both lie and just present a deep hate.
10:50 May 21, 2010 by hkurraf
Swedes have always been stuck in their mindsets. They never want to change that. They have the largest women protection laws but still the highest rate of rapes in 2009. What a society !!!
11:03 May 21, 2010 by bbeynch
Sabuni and Ask are of course correct here. Some commentators above have predictably gone into full spin cycle, trying to divert attention from the issue by inserting Swedish men in Thailand, Swedes being resistant to change, and immigrants always blamed, etc. The truth is that forced child marriages are culturally offensive to Nordic behavioral norms, and must be outlawed with enough teeth in the law to undo any such arrangements, and permanently remove from Sweden any person engaging in such primitive, disturbing, antics.
11:24 May 21, 2010 by raukey
Somebody please advice me! I know a very innocent teenager who is being forcefully surpressed and became so timid to even think of speaking against her oppressing mother (father almost leave in other country! and he is no good even!). This opressing mother does want to work here and always pretend to be sick and draws sick benefits much of her times. The mother is a migrated Swedish citizen but created such a strict religious enviroment in her home that the girl is probably finding it difficut to express herself. The mother always blackmails the child. I wonder how in a best possible way we can help this innocent victim.
11:53 May 21, 2010 by Marko2010S
Swedes talk about marriages!!! What a joke...

Goons should differentiate between "Forced-Marriages" and "Arranged-Marriages"!

As for the "Forced-Marriages", it is a big lie was invented by the West to claim that other ethnic groups are primitive.

As for the "Arranged-Marriages", it is such a great and wonderful to introduce the guy and the girl to each other. It doesn't involve any any forcing at all. The girl can say no comfortably and so the guy.

The West ought to understand that other people have decent and respectable lives NOT lewd society where 22 years old girl has already slept with 44 guys. Indian girls are not like that, Arab girls are not like that and some Asian girls are not like that, and same applies to the guys. The social construction of these cultures is different and generally they are shy. Therefore, families have to step in and play a role in making the guy and the girl see each other.

BTW, the divorce which usually leads to destroy families and causing pain for the children is extremely high in the West where it is almost 10000 X times higher than the societies which practice proper "Arranged-Marriages". Concept "Family" has spiritual and great values in India, Arab countries. But in the West.... well, I'll leave that to your honesty-level!
12:17 May 21, 2010 by raukey
Well written Marko though i have reservation over some parts..
12:23 May 21, 2010 by espionage1079
@twiceshy how much do u know abt islam and prophet???u just need a clue to start bugging....
13:03 May 21, 2010 by calebian22
An arranged marriage of a 13 year old girl with a 50 year old pathetic loser is a forced marriage. Potato-Potahto.
13:36 May 21, 2010 by Rick Methven
Arranged marriages MAY be different from forced marriage BUT what is more than often the case is that members of two families get together and decide that it would be good if their son and daughter should get married. Once a bride price has been agreed the couple are introduced. whereas the girl may not be physically forced to go through with the marriage, the peer and family pressure and the threat of being disowned or worse means she knuckles under and goes through with the marriage.

IMHO that is a forced arranged marriage and is really no different from somebody being physically forced to get married
13:48 May 21, 2010 by zircon
What can one say to this? Indeed, it is primitive honouring of the bride and bridegroom to marry young as thirteen or twelve years old, for either a boy or girl. And forced marriage, even when blossoming like appleblossom, is and remains forced upon... In depends who or what your society is in terms of traditions and governing body. But living in Sweden in our 21th century, the choice should become one more of compliance. Sexual pleasures with youngsters under fifteen is not forced, but a chosen will to act against the norm of civilised behaviour. And therefore is a crime by any international standard of human rights. Ministers in Sweden, especially female ministers, should stop thinking in solving the problem quickly and effective, by a mere addressing of the problem. Let's say that this is perpetual, then what will they do with their quick words?
14:43 May 21, 2010 by Marko2010S
@Rick Methven,

It is not nice of you at all that you insulted the culture/traditions/customs of almost half of the population of this planet. "bride price" that is so disgusting and offensive.

As a father, I can conclusively say that the ultimate dream of any parents (Regardless their cultural/philosophical/religious backgrounds) is to see their sons and daughters happy. Parents believe that their major goal of this life has been accomplished when they see their kids happy and successful. As for sick-parents such as Josef Fritzl, those are freak-individuals and NOT human beings in the first place. So those should be excluded out of the equation.

As for the Dowry, which is a common practice in Africa, India and Arab countries. They paid money goes for the wedding and the couple (At least this is the Arabs Culture both Christians and Muslims). Parents do NOT take any penny of that money, as a matter of fact they contribute from from their own pocket to support.

Also, Tell me, Are you better than: Mohandas Gandhi, Nelson Mandela or Shah Jahan and his wife Mumtaz Mahal ...etc?

The answer is: BIG NO, absolutely they are better than you. All those great people got married and paid dowry.

* What did you contribute to mankind compare to the great people mentioned above ?

Frankly, it is not cool nor fair to talk about other people with such disrespect as you did

As for manipulating the truth and introducing new term "forced arranged marriage", all your argument is completely wrong.

How many times should I repeat to you that there is no dad or mother on earth want to see son or daughter (Which they are literary part of their hearts) are unhappy.

Now the actual and truthful argument is: When a girl from poor family that has 5+ members in Kazakhstan, India, Tanzania, Egypt or Morocco who wish to live just average life, then, her only available option is that she forces herself internally (By herself) to marry a rich man who can offer her a better life. That is because of poverty NOT the dad's fault nor the mother. As a matter of fact it is the West's fault who colonized their countries and steal their natural resources, then, they left them suffer alone in the darkness and ignorance.
15:00 May 21, 2010 by Keith #5083

I live in Sweden (20+ years), I am not Swedish originally,have been to many countries for months on end that practice 'arranged marriages'. So, I think I can claim to have 'been there'. Even know some beautiful, succesful arranged marriages. That is not the issue here. It is not a question of whether marrying for love, or for money, or for family honour is a better system than the other.

All societies have 'clan mentalities'. Your out of one clan if you don't booze the weekend away, out of another if you don't play golf, or stuff.

There is a vast difference between 'clannish behaviour' and an unwillingness to integrate. Integration does not, of itself, convey acceptance with any 'clan' group. It does, however, have the distinction of being the very least you can try to do in a country that has welcomed you and supported you.

Integration requires - as a price of citizenship - that you honour in all senses the laws of your new country.

@Marko 2010s

The guy or the girl can comfortably say 'no', you wrote. Yep, it's comfortable if you desire to be disowned by ALL your extended family, cast out of the family home,

not just 'dumped' out of the clan, but actively oppressed by the clan:

You make many points that show your desire to see this problem through 'rose-coloured glasses'. Divorce is high in the west because it CAN be done, In the Middle East even a 12 year old - marriage arranged by her 'loving family' to a 53 year old - cannot get a divorce (well, when she's 18,21, 0r so she may apply to an Islamic court).The guy, however, can dump her after...how many days?

Arranged marriages were a beautiful tradition, it involved the loving atmosphere of the whole families. It kept the religion 'pure' and in older 'village life scenarios' was a moral and ethical code that served a society well. It wasn't that long ago that it disppeared in the west,for example, an englishwoman did not get the right to own her own property until 1953!!! Like most things nowadays, however, it has become an economic tool. Check out the costs of the 'dowry' in the Middle East and India!!

This is not one system against another, this is accepting the system of your new host country. Swedes that marry, f.ex. Thais, do so in the knowledge that their Thai wife enjoys all the freedoms and benefits of a Swedish citizen - which includes after a modest time, the ability to divorce. Check that out with 'arranged/forced marriages' in Sweden. See how the 'clan' behaves!
15:22 May 21, 2010 by Marko2010S

I lived in the Middle East and you lie. There is no father or mother disown their son or daughter for rejecting a marriage proposal. They might get angry for a while like the White american parents might get angry if their daughter marries a black man or the another way around.

The bottom line is that you lie and you are spouting the despicable West's propaganda!
15:24 May 21, 2010 by expert
@Marko2010S: you have explained well.

For Nyamko Sabuni , I should say, she should also shed some thoughts about the swedish thinking of "Get her drunk and get her laid", what about this, they also say, "this is the easiest way", how about this, what a way to get consent while being drunk...,

Could some one define ethics, morals and respect in this society and whats the reference for that, where should i look?

Very often you will find people on public places saying women, bitch and slut...... how about this, Is there any body here to notice this....

Is there any body who cares about respect for women?

Get your stuff straight first i guess, because the native population is swedish and constitutes the majority, have some respect for women, don't use them as showpieces for money and decoration and lust. And don't judge them for their beauty by seeing their flesh. Respect for their ethics, morals, behavior and attitudes.
16:06 May 21, 2010 by Georguis
@ proud muslim

"Islam is against forced marriage"

How do you justify that your prophet got married to 9 years old girl then???!!!!

I hope muslims will wake up once in their life time, stop distorting facts and spread lies about their religion who spreads corruption every where.

Forced marriage was invented by islam since mohamed abused this little 9 years old girl. Its one image of suppressing woman in islam hence it's the only religion legalized polygamy for man.

Islam is crystal clear to us proud muslim... what do you proud of???!!!
16:08 May 21, 2010 by blondelover
@ Twiceshy-- Please, join some university and study. Your comment shows how illetrate your :)
16:31 May 21, 2010 by saab
To all who are talking glowingly about a system that allows prepubescent girls to be married off, I say... let's also talk about honor killings. Try to defend THAT practice!

(And if you can blame it on the West or the Pal-Israeli conflict, you get bonus points)
18:06 May 21, 2010 by bcterry
12:23 May 21, 2010 by espionage1079


" how much do u know abt islam and prophet???u just need a clue to start bugging...."

You mean this prophet?

"What would muhammad do".
19:04 May 21, 2010 by curiousaboutwriting
This forced and child marriages barn has its own target group. And yes those who fall in the category will argue against it dispute the clarity that we all concious about that minors should not be abused. I fully support this barn.
19:18 May 21, 2010 by Keith #5083

I think this is the third time you and I have been involved in a discussion board and I notice every time you start to lose the argument you start to get offensive. I guess that's your tradition.Beware, your fundamentalism is showing!?!

To educate you... the subject under discussion is arranged/forced marriage in Sweden. I know of families who have been accepted into this country from overseas where the child IS disowned by the family if it wishes to marry against the parents choice.It is not only shunned by the 'clan from the old country' but is actively 'persecuted'. This is not theory. This is not media talk. This I have witnessed personally happening in the last 8 years. I have witnessed it in families for whom, prior to this event, I had the highest respect.Highest!

Now, my kind of truth may not be acceptable to you. That's your problem not mine. Your refusal to accept reality does not make it any less real.

Incidentally, it was Mohandas K Gandhi,Bapu, who said that in society the greatest forms of violence were poverty and the treatment of women" (loosely translated).MKG is MY life hero. I remind you that all the great people you named earlier married...arranged marriage...in the tradition of the country in which they lived!

I have absolutely no objection to countries having their own traditions BUT if you wish to live in a country and be a citizen of it, you have the duty and obligation to follow the rules of that country.

Arranged/forced marriage is NOT acceptable in Swedish society. Live here? Then live by these rules.

(also this subject is not only Islamic, there are other 'religious' arranged marriage scenarios also.But it is interesting that an essentially tolerant religion is today hijacked by the intolerant).
19:24 May 21, 2010 by curiousaboutwriting
I totally agree with you. This is insanity of the highest order and lets agree that in this age and generations most countries do not condon child marriages and for those who engage in it, I would say its a form of racket to get more immigrants in to sweden in the name of marriages. Its time to re baptise marriage if they need this to continue hahahaha otherwise CHILD MARRIAGE IS UNACCEPTABLE. suprise Sweden is taking not of this too late.
19:57 May 21, 2010 by Keith #5083
It's also a pretty dangerous practice:

"Three members of a British family visiting Pakistan were shot dead by their relatives yesterday in a dispute over an arranged marriage between cousins.

Mohammad Yousaf, 51, his wife Parviaz, 49, and their daughter, Tania, 23, from Nelson, in Lancashire, were killed in the eastern city of Gujrat when tensions over the breakdown of the marriage between their eldest son and their niece ended in tragedy.

The marriage finished about a year ago but the wife's brother - who is also Mr Yousaf's nephew - is believed to have harboured a grudge that his sister was being divorced."

Timesonline, today.
21:20 May 21, 2010 by Marko2010S

1) If you don't like the way that I expose your lies, then why on earth you talk to me? Look above and let's see who starts talk to the other? You claimed that this is the third time (I really don't remember though!) When will you ever learn not to talk to me then, after 50 times...?

2) Since you are not a Swede, then, you have no right at all to talk about what the swedish law regarding the immigrants should be.

3) It is pretty clear that you have so much hate toward Muslims and immigrants in general, and you are suggesting forced assimilation.

BTW, Nothing is more despicable than being a hypocrite. You claimed that this issue isn't just about Muslims and surprisingly you provided an example of a Muslim family.

4) In your comment# 20 "Divorce is high in the west because it CAN be done", When Divorce was allowed in Italy?

I wonder who ought to be educated....

Also, when I call you a lair I truly mean it because you are.

The bottom line is that you are a cancer in the society who tries so hard to spread lies and wrong stereotypes. Exactly like the US when they show Blacks are Gangs and drug dealers, or claiming that if you walk in the street in Colombia for 5 minute then you be killed, or you get HIV if you go to Africa...etc, however, sadly you are worse, simply because Swedes are racist, hate Muslims and Media's lies, So all these cards are by your side.
00:49 May 22, 2010 by hogwort
@ Marko

Divorce has been allowed in Italy for more than 40 years.
03:37 May 22, 2010 by Keith #5083
Oh Dear Marko, it is not the exposure of lies that I fear (for there I have little or nothing to fear) but more it is the distortion of truth that we should all fear. You are certainly well qualified for this.

1. This is a public chatboard. I am not the controller/moderator of the board.In good, democratic, tolerant fashion -I have little choice but to have a conversation with anyone on the board.

2. I do have the right to talk about honouring the laws, rules and regulations of my host country. This is called 'leading by example' as opposed to simply protesting that I cannot have my 'birth country' rules imported here.

3. Here goes the 'poor me, muslim routine again! I can't get my own way, or the way my immam wants, so I shall play the religious discrimination card!! Well, if you want to read into my writings an anti-Islamic sense you are free to do so. I wrote "it is interesting that an essentially tolerant religion is today hijacked by the intolerant.

Qr'n - sura:2.236 "There shall be no compulsion in religion...."

Yet anyone who in any way challenges the anti-islamic hadiths, edicts and fatwas issued by 'pseudo-muslims' is now labelled anti-Islamic.

Marko - I will defend the beauty and purity of Islam to the utmost against ill-informed, indoctrinated, funadamentalist, bigotted or prostituting charletons masquerading as

knowledgable muslims. Dr. Muhammed Tahir-ul-Qadri has written a scholarly report which hopefully will defuse the incendiary words of embittered Q'tb. It is the hatred of the West that pseudo-muslims seek, for then they have a platform, they are not ignored. The minority can rule the majority in good Middle Eastern tradition. That's the basis of arranged marriage - the paternalistic ruling - like they know what they're doing, huh?

I wrote: "I have absolutely no objection to countries having their own traditions BUT if you wish to live in a country and be a citizen of it, you have the duty and obligation to follow the rules of that country"

It is precisely the same that a westerner is expected to do in, say, Saudi, or Iran, or....."

This you call 'anti-Islamic'.

09:27 May 22, 2010 by Nemesis
This happens in both islamic and hindu families.

Forced marriage should be stamped out.

There is no place for forced marriage in Europe, let alone Sweden.

It would be better to have a Europe wide enquiry and show the real picture Europe wide so people can see the true extent of the forced marriage problem right cross Europe in minority communities.

Also the age of people getting married needs to be investigated.
11:03 May 22, 2010 by Uncle
Aaaaand muslims again... Forced marriage, cirumcision of girls, blood feuds, terror, execution of gays, execution of daughters who "dishonoured" the family...

I mean seriously, there is almost no public opposition to alll of the above among the "rest of us, not radical, totally normal" muslims. So freaking stop telling stories that are based on "crusaders did it too" and "we are the most peaceful religion".

Just admit that you still live in 7,000 A.D. and people will leave you alone. Of course then the immigration into progressed countries will slow down, but you are anyways not happy with the "evil, racist, not allowing to integrate" swedes? In addition you are very happy with the extremely "high morals" of the sharia countries.

It will be the best for everybody, especially the drinking, sexually open, racist swedes!
11:21 May 22, 2010 by Keith #5083

totally agree with you,oh, except that you theorise (by inference) that in muslim controlled countries there is not alcohol, sexual promiscuity, racism (go to 'moderate Oman' and see how the phillipinos get treated) and wait, you forgot drugs. Drugs, oh yeah, that's on the decline in muslim lands because the poppy production in Aghanistan has fallen over 35% because of a fungal attack.

I am amazed at how religious traditions imported into Sweden that market arranged marriage also allow such freedom with their young men before they are married. Even after they are married!!! I know of one young man (21+) who was 'married off', his new wife came to Sweden and within days he was out clubbing it again, one night standing it again..

In short, there is basically now religious tradition that cannot be, and is not, superceded by desire or economic need. "Arranged marriage" is a mythology of control, nothing more and nothing less.
11:51 May 22, 2010 by Georguis

"Qr'n - sura:2.236 "There shall be no compulsion in religion...." hahaha

Please do NOT delude us, you know well that this verse was abrogated later by tens of verses which promote hatred, hostility, compulsion and killing.

Please have time to read about your TRUE religion here: http://thespiritofislam.com/books/imk/index.html
12:07 May 22, 2010 by hkurraf

Can you explain me any of the verse of Quran that spreads hatred, hostility, compulsion or killing. If you have Quran at your home, then try to read it and produce any of such verse. If you are Swedish, then you can easily find the Swedish translation of Quran in any book shop. Try to give some authentic references please.

Have you ever read the life of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H).?
12:21 May 22, 2010 by Marko2010S


At the end of the day, all the following is happening:

1- European Girl sleeps with zillion guys Muslim Girl stays holy/Clean pure for her husband (The Husband should be same to deserve that angel!).

2- Divorces and and destroying families and kids will continue increases up and up and up Divorces in the Arab countries is low due to the wonderful integrity, and strong family structure.

3- Muslim couple enjoy having kids (More than half population in Jordan are young generation between 15-25), the West suffers badly due to the fact that no one wants to be a father or mother, Finnish family members is 1.7.

4- Parents in the West are the biggest losers ever (The spend their entire life working and doing their best for their kids, finally to be rewarded that kids throw them in care centers or call them once a month or seeing them once a year, that's why the West proposes Mother's day)

But parents in Arab countries are the greatest treasure and bliss ever in the family, they have all the respect and love.

5- It is so common to see people in the West commiting sucide due to the emptiness in their lives, souls and heart. Sadly they are just feel useless and unwanted. The bad news is: High rate in the west is like that. But Arab countries, where the life is tough, poverty and ignorance the rate is way lower.

I can go on with the list forever, but .…Ahhh....
15:45 May 22, 2010 by Keith #5083

I am not Muslim, but that does not stop me from seeing the beauty, compassion and lovingness that many ordinary Muslims I have met in the world clearly possess. I would respectfully suggest that before you comment you at least show that you have made an attempt to respect a religion with over 1 Bn members. A religion that small elements have attempted to politicise and hijack.


Bless you. I wish I still possessed the niaivity you so clearly have, well, when you're not hurling insults at people. The problem with Islam, as with most of the major religions nowadays, is that they are having a hard time adjusting to secular societies that not only preach but actually have laws promoting higher moral and ethical conduct.Sharia law is perceived by most as being ancient, barbaric and lacking in compassion. The fact that the taleban favour it is no great recommendation.

No suicide in the Middle East? Huh? Oh no, of course, you call it martyrdom there because you kill another 12 muslims with it!! And what do you call it elsewhere when the widow throws herself on the husband's funeral pyre? Your rose-coloured glasses, dearest Marko, are clearly bifocals.

All of which is only loosely connected to the last 3 lines of my earlier post. Behave in this country, Sweden, in accordance with it's laws as Islamic states expect westerners to behave in their countries, which you have made no attempt to answer but instead bring up another aspect.

If you want 'arranged marriages' then go and live where they have them. If you want the freedoms, economic benefits (including social and pension benefits, health care) offered to you in Sweden - at least honour the laws of this country.

For in accepting the benefits of this country without such an action you bring disrespect to yourself and to Islam or Hinduism or...etc.etc.

No-one has hurt Islam more in the last 50 years than.......Muslims!
17:51 May 22, 2010 by Marko2010S
@Kieth #40

"I am not Muslim"

I converted to Islam in 1993, since that day I am fabulously happy, successful and healthy. May Allah guides you to the most wonderful religion "Islam" and its great peace.
17:57 May 22, 2010 by Uncle

Nazis had millions of followers... It is just to show that the amount of people following an idea does not legitimize the idea.

Nobody talks about specific people here. All the muslims that I met in Sweden were funny, great to work with, loyal and sensitive. Those SAME people usually do not spread in every corner that they are muslims. Quite the contrary. I would say that they are ashamed of the name that Islam got.

You know what is wierd? They agree that there IS a reason for this name. They feel that there is no case to scream about non-justified prejudice, because they understand where it comes from. Often they see what is preached in their mosques, what the "few extremists" are saying and doing when they recruit kids. They see the crime stats. They see the conflicts in the world. They see the difference between sharia countries and all normal countries. One CANNOT run away from it.

You know what else is interesting? These people are far away from religion! The closer one is to Islam, the more justification he finds to the Medieval times horrors among the religious muslims. Therefore - people are OK. Religion is not!
18:22 May 22, 2010 by Marko2010S

As much as you hate Islam and Muslims, It is ok. When Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) starts preaching Islam, Many people turned against him and wanted and many people were fighting him. But later on, they realized the happyness and peace that Islam ha, and they become great Muslims.

May Allah guides you to the most wonderful religion "Islam" and its great peace.
19:41 May 22, 2010 by Keith #5083

Dear One, now you are starting to talk in a manner that invites respect for your beliefs.May I most respectfully suggest that you study and pray more, until you reach the One God of which the Q'rn, and all the great religions, speak. When you come to this doorway, so you will find the One God of lovingness and when the politicisers of Islam recognise that the One God does not solve problems the way humans do, then they may turn from physical, emotional and religious violence and become as the true servants of Islam are - peaceful, caring, compassionate and tolerant. I am truly thrilled to hear that you have found happiness in your belief system. Are you willing to trust the One God and allow others to find happiness in their systems?

Only love will return Islam to a respected position. There shall be no force to believe, for love has it's own inviolate energy. This statement is the single greatest reason to oppose 'arranged marriages'.

As for tradition, ask Ishmael or Isaac about that, for if Ibrahim/Abraham had followed the tradition of the times they would not have survived - nor would these religions.

May the One God guide you beyond the metaphors into full awareness of unconditional lovingness.
20:52 May 22, 2010 by Marko2010S

I beleive that Allah is the only God, Islam is the true religion and Muhammed (Peace be upon him) is the prophet.
21:05 May 22, 2010 by Nordic Prince 2
@Uncle #42

I liked how @Keith completely ignored you.
23:56 May 22, 2010 by Keith #5083

Then may your sincere belief bring you the blessings of a peaceful heart that can only speak of lovingness.

If all the followers of the major religions of the world could do just this, what an amazing world we could co-create.

As for me, I'll go with Gandhi...I am Christian,Muslim,Sikh,Jew,Hindu..etc. for

"Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent."MKG.
01:32 May 23, 2010 by Uncle
Marko - I really hope that Allah would not guide me at all. I would like Allah not to notice me... Not to see that I exist and disregard me completely. I can see how the 1 billion "guided" ones live. I can see 20 million of "guided" in Europe. I can see what the guided sharia law proposes.

The moment there will be no oil, even the guided Saudis and citizens of Emirates will turn into 10 B.C economic situation with the guidance of the Great one.

1 billion ARE NOT HAPPY! The happiness index shows:

Yemen - 91st, Lybia-108, Lebanon - 113, Sudan - 173, Pakistan - 166, Egypt - 151, Azeirbajan - 144, Jordan - 141, Syria - 142, Iran -96.

Admittedly, Malaysia is FULL 17th place. BUt something tells me that Islam brings them down from the usual far eastern happiness of people.

The quite high rating (within the 40) have Emirates, Saudis and Oman.


WHAT does this mean? Money and mentality give people happiness. Religion - does not. Especially religion that controls the government. Especially THIS religion.
09:51 May 23, 2010 by Twiceshy

you said "16:08 May 21, 2010 by blondelover @ Twiceshy-- Please, join some university and study. Your comment shows how illetrate your :)"

hummm... Did you mean illiterate (you are)? Maybe I know what I am talking about after all and not you.

I do think study would be good and you will see the truth about islam and it's profit. If you do you will become a more literate person - that is:

"having an education; educated. " !

09:56 May 23, 2010 by Kronaboy

just out of curiosity, what nationality are you?
12:09 May 23, 2010 by Farrukh Iqbal

If money and mentality can give happiness only, then why is the suicide rate in Sweden is too high?

If Religion Islam cannot give peace, then why Islam is the fastest growing religion including Europe and USA?
13:42 May 23, 2010 by Marko2010S
@Keith #46

I would be very interested if you tell me what do you think about the following Ayat from Koran:

a) surat Al-Baqara - Ayah 135 -136

b) surat Al-Baqara - Ayah 132 -133

c) surah Al Imran - Ayah 67

@Uncle #47

Allah knows everything going on, he knows that I am writing to you now, he knows what Choi Ji-woo was doing in 2005 at 2:00 am and he knows what a little bird in Guatemala is going to eat. So nothing is hidden on him.

As for your argument about Money and mentality bring happyness, let's see:

Money is great thing, I personally love money. But isn't Japan ranked as 23 in the richest country in the world? Isn't Japan well-know by its great technology? Then, why on earth it is ranked as 90 in your happiness and satisfaction index (Like Yemen!)?

Uncle, When I talk to you about Islam, I want you to criticize Muslims around the world, I want you NOT to stop drinking if you like drinking, I want you to support deporting Muslims who break the law of taxes system. But also, I wanted you to Fast Ramadan and experience the spiritual meanings of it. I want you if you have extra money which you never touched or needed for longer than a year, then, take only 2.5% of that amount and give it to orphan to draw a smile on his or her face. That's all I wanted.

Uncle, People (I am one of them!) are human beings and we do mistake, So I urge you not to look to how/what the 1 billion mulsim live and do, You are you not someone else, you are Uncle and that should never, ever change if you become a Muslim.

@Kronaboy #49

Your curiosity might hurt me due to some painful memories, but it is ok. I am a son of a Swedish man and Finnish woman. I was born in Mombasa, Kenya. I was raised as a Catholic, and I was given a Catholic name (Catholics, especially African ones will understand what am talking about). After my father passed away, my mother got married to a Kenyan Muslim man, and he left my mother the moment he acquired some papers.

As life goes on, I went back to Sverige, and I joint medical school. Also, I met my ex-wife at that time. Back in the days, I was strong believer the same way as @Keith, Therefore, I wasted some time in Haifa, Israel to learn more about Baha'i faith, but when I learnt some Arabic language I realized that Kitab i Aqdas is a human made and if there is a real God, then, this book for sure isn't his teach.

Note that, when I left church my swedish ex-wife had no problem, Also, when I was learning Baha'i faith. But when I converted to Islam she left me and we got divorce even we already have 1 daughter who she was 3 years old. Alhamdulillah Allah rewards me by my sweetheart daughter, she a strong Muslim, wears Hijab. And here was my arguement with @Keith. My daughter is the one who I am living for and she is the one who I am willing to die for, so, it is unthinkable for me to harm her feelings or forcing her to do anything.
16:34 May 23, 2010 by Keith #5083

My opinion of someone else's faith is inconsequential. The One God speaks to everyone in a way they can individually understand, using the circumstances of life to challenge each individual to manifest the presence of lovingness.To some the language is one of doubt or disbelief and this also is a gift from the One God, for there can be no faith without doubt. Doubts are the stepping stones to fullest realisation.

There are 3 aspects of love which everyone knows, everyone: we all know the presence of it, we all know the absence of it, we all know the opposite of it.We sense each and every one of these aspects.This is an inborn characteristic.

Seeking answers in the words of others who belonged to a culture, tradition and history that has little or no relevance to the circumstances of life today and attempting to apply codes of living from an ancient culture is no answer (though it is appealing to escape into the past).. I have lived too long to wish to play 'text-tennis' which is simply a mind game, rather I would spend my time studying the wonder and beauty of a flower.Not least because it simply is willing to share it's beauty without condition, it is it's nature so to do. We learn in this life's walk about conditional love, we are not born with it, we are taught it is a necessary attribute to survive. The flower laughs at our ignorance. 'Conditional love' is the parents greatest weapon in forcing an arranged marriage.

Incidentally, if I may mention as you brought the subject up, I included a news item from Timesonline for 2 reasons: 1 was to show the prevalence of arranged marriage even in the UK and the other was to illuminate the situation regarding marriage between cousins which, though not illegal in the UK since Henry VIII, is considered extremely dangerous and results in high level of disability within the children born of such 'in-breeding'. It can in no way be considered of benefit to future generations.

I have been a 'lifetime student' of comparitive religions (from I was 8!!) and, frankly dearest Marko, we can debate old texts,quotations and scriptures for the rest of our lives. There are those for whom religion means simply this. It is an 'escape mechanism' for quoting someone else relieves a person from the responsibility of answering the question in their own heart, "what does the One God desire me to do in this life circumstance?"


Love - yes even your enemies (which is not only a Christian dogma incidentally).

When it comes to the question of arranged marriage, parents who know in their own heart after years of a relationship between their child and another, yet still go against the younger persons wishes and force an arranged marriage, they have ceased to be parents in the fullest sense of the word. Their interest is predominantly self interest, self glorification and acceptance by the 'clan' for their actions.
19:23 May 23, 2010 by Uncle
@Farrukh Iqbal.

"If money and mentality can give happiness only, then why is the suicide rate in Sweden is too high?" Sweden is ranked #7 happiest country. The suicide rate is normal. It is not blocked by Medieval fear that one would go to eternal hell if he/she commits suicide. So the muslims are much more depressed, but are afraid to just end it.

"If Religion Islam cannot give peace, then why Islam is the fastest growing religion including Europe and USA?"

Poverty is the fastest growing style of life in the world. Get the point?

@Marko - Japan has a mentality issue. They work until they die. It overwhelms the money issue. Saudis do not work and still get money. That is why they are happy.

Now, if Islam would bring happiness, then wouldn't at least most of stats point at some satisfaction among muslim countries? I mean there are unhappy Christian lands also, but their average is quite high weighted against their amount, while muslims are generally are not happy. They are overwhelmingly over the point of 100. It shows a TENDENCY, Marko.

You are a nice guy Marko and as I said, most of Muslims that I know here are quite cool people. But the issue is - religion as a whole.

Muslim countries have bad scientific stats, bad Nobel prize stats, bad Pulitzer stats, bad Oscar stats.

They generally show awful sporting results. They did not market any invention in the past 500 years. They could not create a real industry, their IT sucks, their non-military space progress sucks (and military one holds on inventions of others, like N. Koreans, Chinese and Russians).

Their education is not recognized in most western countries in high-skill professions. They cannot achieve a real democracy. They cannot show real improvement in the situation of women. Culturally, they never reached anything equal to Rennaisance. There are no amazing painters, sculptors.

The few good writers and poets are hunted and jailed.


Show me the love!!!

I can prove that if Islam spreads in a country, it usually causes regression.
19:26 May 23, 2010 by Jes
Nyamko Sabuni ,

you are an African woman , remember ? Do you know , do you care about what is happening to Burundian refugees in Sweden ?
20:49 May 23, 2010 by Georguis
@ hkurraf # 38

I know about Islam and Mohamed more than you do. I came to Sweden from an islamic country and I had experienced my self how Islam penetrate every single aspect of life there. How Islam blinded people and filled their hearts and minds of hatred and hostility against other religions' followers (especially Jews and Christians). I experienced how much Christians are suffering persecution and margining there because of their faith. I have witnessed many churches have burnt & experienced how much muslims who converted to Christianity are living in fear of killing. I also know how much muslim woman is humiliated and suppressed hence Islam legalized polygamy for man.

Back to your question about the verses which promotes hatred, hostility & violence, here is SOME of them:

- O Apostle (Muhammad) incite (literal translation) the believers (Muslims) to fight (Surat Al-Anfal 8:65).

- Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you, Allah knoweth, ye know not (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:216).

- Lo! Allah loveth those who battle for his cause in ranks, as if they were solid structure (Surat Al-Saff 61:4).

- Fight against such of those who have been given the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His Messenger (Muhammad) and follow not the religion of truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (taxes paid by Jews and Christians who do not want to renounce their religion), being brought low (Surat Al-Tawbah 9:29).

- Say to infidels (literal translation), if (now) they desist from unbelief their past would be forgiven them: but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter warning for them). And fight them until there is no more sedition (literal translation) and religion (Islam) becomes Allah's in its entirety (Surat Al-Anfal 8:38,39).

- Fight them, and Allah will torture (literal translation) them by your hands and disgrace them, help you to (victory) over them . . . .(Surat At-Tawbah 9, 14).

- O ye who believe! Truly the polytheists (literal translation) are unclean, so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred mosque (Al-Kaaba in Mecca) (Surat At-Tawbah 9:28).

- O ye who believe, take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust (Surat Al-Maidah 5:51).

There are more verses but I couldn't write them all for space limitation.

Here is a link to educate yourself more about why Islam is NOT religion of peace: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/ten_reasons.htm

Here is a comprehensive study about Islam: http://www.thespiritofislam.com/books/imk/index.html#chap0502
21:33 May 23, 2010 by Marko2010S
@Uncle #53

You are absolutely right about every word you've said regarding development, and I like the way you phrase it "they never reached anything equal to Rennaisance", that is so true.

But, Uncle, have you ever heard of the following sad/horrible info:

- Syria changes its constitution to matches the son of the former president (Bashar Al-Assad), So that he can rule the country.

- Tunisia, Egypt and other Arab countries, the president usually wins with percentage about 99.9% of the votes. (Of course you see what I mean?)

- Ali Abdullah Saleh (President of Yemen) is ruling the country since 1990, and his son is getting ready for the presidency after his like other countries such as: Libya which is ruled by Muammar Al-Gaddafi since 1969, Egypt which is ruled by Hosni Mubarak since 1981...etc.

- Kings in Arab monarchies are the ones who run everything in the country, they are not like the monarchies in the West such as: Sweden, Norway, Spain, Belgium...etc. Besides, their lovely brothers are basically managing the most sensitive areas of the country. So whatever they say is what going to happen.

Uncle, it is not because of Islam, it is because the corrupted leaders of those countries. And because of Cowards (Arab people) who can't defend their rights, but again, they will be hammered badly by army and weapons.

These corrupted leaders are illegitimate dictators and they are gang who care only about themselves. On top of that, Sadly the West is standing by their side.

I and you both know the early ages of Islam and how it reaches Spain, Also, we know the Islamic inventions in Science and Architecture.

Do you think they will develop with such conditions? I believe they will not.

Uncle, do you know how the Islamic banking systems work? Do you know what Islam teaches about loan and the way of paying back?

Uncle, please don't be judgmental like my university's professor who once told one of Latino's class mates "If the South Americans work as much as they dance, they would be developed countries by now".
22:03 May 23, 2010 by Georguis
@ Farrukh iqbal #50

Islam does not prevail in Europe and USA because non muslims Europeans and Americans convincingly adopt it, but simply because more than 85% of the immigration to these countries come from Islamic countries! In addition, according to statistics fertility (births) rate in the EU countries & USA is so low compared to muslims come from Islamic countries due to different reasons (e.g Polygamy in islam, customs and traditions…etc) for these reasons muslims numbers increase in Europe and USA.. It's not about non muslims adopt Islam it's all about immigration and muslims biological multiplication.. or you can say when Islam failed to conquer western countries by force it used another weapon called "population bomb".
23:52 May 23, 2010 by Farrukh Iqbal
@Georgius # 57

yes, immigration is one of the ways that Allah has strategized to spread the true message of Islam in the West. Many Muslims came and with the blessing of Allah people are converting to Islam everyday. During my stay of 2.5 years in Swden I personally know many swedes who converted to Islam. I am not here to give you the numbers or to convince you but try to see the essence of this religion with open heart. Following sre some of the examples;

Here is the short report of new york times http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/national/22CONV.html

Here is also the report of New York times http://www.alhewar.com/nyt_islam_attracts.htm
06:50 May 24, 2010 by Uncle
Marko, so how come the muslim countries are so easily infested by these horrible dictators? How come poor Brazil and India CAN reach democracy, but muslims cannot? The support of the west is not good enough excuse. The west supports democracies as well. Moreover it gives a lot of money to new democracies. Look at the ex-USSR. Plus, the west was ripped to pieces in the 40's and still, the muslims were dictatorships.

Dictators do not come from the sky and fall on people. They come from people. They are supported by people. Without their support, they die like Mussolini or dissapear like the shah or Pinochet.

I am judgemental, because a lot of Muslims like Farrukh here come and spread the word of Islam, when in fact (statistically) Islam did not introduce ANYTHING good in the past 1000 years. NOTHING!

Give me some statistical reason to convert and I will consider it, if I cannot argue with it.
09:00 May 24, 2010 by Marko2010S

Once again, you're entirely correct and accurate.

But Uncle, there are couple of things that I'd like to draw your attention to:

1) The police and governmental intelligence agencies in the West (Including: CIA, Mossad..etc) are made to protect the country.


In Arab countries the police and governmental intelligence agencies means death of the citizen. And you Uncle said it by yourself "The few good writers and poets are hunted and jailed", and they manipulate the illustrate public by using religious reasons for instance.

2) I visited couple of Arab countries, and I saw by my own eyes very very long queue of people in front of the king's palace gate or the president. So, out of curiosity I asked why is that?

The sad answer was: those citizens are looking for covering surgery bills, some medical operations or medication.

I was shocked and blown away, simply because they are citizens and this health care is their simple basic rights, but do you see how those illegitimate dictators manipulate the poor people and control them from their most essential need?

3) Those illegitimate dictators do not come from the sky and fall on people. They come from people. BUT Uncle, we have to know a simple fact about type of people in the Arab countries. There are 2 kinds of people: Well-Connected people (Protected ones) and others (Worthless). These illegitimate dictators are from the first category. It is very normal in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait..etc that a criminal received a death sentence because of a crime, BUT also, it is very common that some protected persons kill, steal and do horrible things and never gets punished because they are from ABC tribe or because their relatives work for that governmental office.

Uncle, illegitimate dictators with their followers have successfully and impressively managed to destroy their own citizens, they implanted the fear and respect inside their hearts and they destroyed their self-esteem completely.

Regarding the West support to the Arab countries, let's take an example:

Uncle, if the EU is supporting Estonia by money and after some years, reports and studies show no real progress at all in: Democracy, Transparency, Industry...etc Will the EU continue paying them? Or will they act and threaten them by cutting support?

Same applies for Arab countries.

EU and US support Arab countries (Money goes for thieves though!) since ages. You and I and millions agree that Arab countries are not progressing, actually they are becoming worse. Then, why on earth EU still paying these corrupted governmental systems?

Also, EU and US supports in getting ride of Saddam Hussein (President of Iraq) in order to build free democratic countries, BUT, what about Libya or Egypt? Why the West has Lovely- dictators and Enemy-Dictators ?

Finally, I don't blame the West at all. I blame the cowards (Arab people) who can't stand their grounds and sacrifice for their own freedom.
12:18 May 24, 2010 by here for the summer
My wife is reading the book Infidel . I will read it next it has totally changed he mind.
17:13 May 24, 2010 by Uncle
Marko. Ask yourself - why is it so easy in Muslim countries to manipulate people? These dictators are using the religion in order to do it effectively. Even the secular ones are using imams in order to keep their heavy hand on people.

I think that we both agree on the main things, but you I believe that you think that the muslim countries are just victims of unfortunate cirumstances, whereas I believe that Islam prepared a very good ground for these circumstances.

It is SO simple and powerful that it actually blocks industrial revolutions (general pre-requisite for a democracy).

As in George Orwells 1984 - these governments allow a steam relief from the people through terror allowance (as long as it is directed against others), however only in Iran the terrorists have actually managed to reach critical mass to create a revolution. Unfortunately - not an industrial one.

However see by yourself. The more religious the coutry is, the less achivements it has. In anything. Don't you see the pattern? Don't you ask yourself whether it is the religion that causes regression and not the dictators?

BTW, Marko, China and USSR managed to prove that a secular dictatorship manages to reach hell of a lot scientific, sport related and cultural breakthroughs!Dictators are not the problem, Marko.
01:08 May 25, 2010 by Marko2010S

You made such a golden statement: "The more religious the country is, the less achievements it has. In anything.". Also, without a doubt, your points are valid. I truly enjoyed having this discussion with you.

You know Uncle, the world is quite complicated. Most recently Religion has been used as a reason in the West to manipulate people, Bush used term "Crusades" to hammer other people from other faith.

Another case is Israel. As far as I know that, It is a country that was established based on pure religious concepts, and I think religion plays a major role in the country till now, but at the same time, Israel is very successful country in almost all aspect. I think they are balancing very well between factors: Religion, talented people and freedom.
02:01 May 25, 2010 by freedomcharity
Freedom is a new charity that has been established to save the lives of vulnerable children in the UK who are at risk of, or are subjected to, Forced Marriage and 'dis-honour' based violence. More information is available on the website at http://www.freedomcharity.org.uk/
11:32 May 25, 2010 by Uncle
Marko, it was interesting indeed. Frankly, it is the first time I met a reasonable muslim on this forum (as I said, personally, I met a high quality muslims, but the quality on this website is usually questionable).

Just a correction, since you had an excellent example. Zionist movement (returning of the Jews to Israel) started as religious, however was implemented by anti-religious socialists from the eastern europe. These pioneers were the ones who drained the swamps in the north and watered the desert in the south.

From what I know, religious Jews in Israel are actually stopping the progress. They get social services, while their employment rate stands at 25% (willingful unemployment of course - they need the time to read some books).

Not only this, they are so many that they can manipulate the government into supporting their lack of contribution, because they swith political sides at a first word from the leader. All the success Israel is made by the secular scientists, artists and businessmen.

Even more - Neturey Karta are religious group who oppose the very existence of Israel (because Messiah did not come yet). They live on the taxpayers backs, while refusing to recognize police, education and non-biblical laws inside Israel. They also contributed 0 to the development of Israel.

At least - the extreme religious Jews are generally not violent. Otherwise the situation there would be like in almost all muslim countries.
19:53 May 25, 2010 by Marko2010S

Thanks for Info !

BTW, since we brought it up and talked about "Israel", I'd would be very interested to have a discussion with you on this topic.

So, what do you think? Is it ok?
06:55 May 26, 2010 by Uncle
I would love to talk to you about Israel, but, Marko, putting the name into parenthesis is definitely not a good start :)

What did you have in mind?
20:09 May 26, 2010 by Farrukh Iqbal
@Uncle @59

I don't know from where you read about Islam. Atleast read some books to understand Islam and you will know automatically the contribution of Muslims in past 1000 years.

I am just preplexed from your statements and not avoided myself to ask you that . Do you have problem with religion Islam or with Muslims?
22:16 May 26, 2010 by Marko2010S

First of all, I used the punctuation marks to be accurate :) , So our discussion is about Israel NOT Jews.

Second of all, please Uncle during our discussion, I want you to consider me as a person who only cares about human rights (Not as a Muslim!). Also, please ignore completely all what other Muslims around the world scream and roar about regarding Israel.

So, let's get it started :)

Point #1) No point of discussing about the right of existence of Israel. Obviously, Israel is a fact and it is a UN member state. Therefore, naturally Uncle and Marko shall agree on that point :)

Point #2) You asked me "What did you have in mind?", Actually, I want to discuss about Why Marko blames Israel. Also, other issues.

In general, I blame Israel for killing "the innocent people" by huge numbers, such as: Gaza massacre (Dec 2008) and Jenin massacre (April 2002). I argue the following:

Firstly I totally understand the game: Hamas's members fires missiles into Israel, then, hide in children schools or even fires from children schools, then, hide between civilian population. Now, Israel has the right to defend itself, So they go ahead with their F16 fighters and bomb some places. What are the results: 1417 human beings in Gaza were killed badly. Marko defines terrorism is conducting a war by targeting civilian population and civilian infrastructure to accomplish political end, and sadly Israel routinely targeting that.

I blame the educated, talented, powerful and democratic country (Israel) for murdering in such a horrible way. Uncle, WHY on earth Israel doesn't act as any human beings act? Since they are well-educated and developed, Why don't they kill Hamas's members professionally (Like killing Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai, or Killing by a spy or the like), that operation was accurate, professional, successful and most importantly, it didn't cause death for kids or women. Israel in my eyes is a well-developed and successful country, therefore, I expect from them to act as human mature beings not as hooligans.

Uncle, assume that Marko is an educated and a strong muscles man, and his neighbor Mr.X is an illiterate goon. Mr.X throws eggs package on his face, then, he run away into his house. Now, of course, Marko is very annoyed maybe hurt. So, which way would you feel is right: Marko breaks in the door and beats Mr.X's mother, father, little sisters until he finds Mr.X then, beat him. Or should Marko act with morals and manners as a responsible, mature and educated person by keeping waiting and mentoring when Mr.X will get out alone, then, catches him and beat him.

Mark my words Uncle, If Israel conducts its self-defense war in a moral way professionally, by killing only the responsible Hamas's members, the whole world will be standing by their side. But sadly, Israel kills in a very barbaric way, that's why we see original European protesters against what Israel calls it collateral damage.
07:01 May 27, 2010 by Uncle
@ Farrukh - Islam. And those idiots who decided to interpret it into violence. OK?

Marko. You have good points. But let us be realistic. Gaza has what, 3 million people? Only 1,5K dead, out of which about 75-80% fighters? Not bad.

Second point, operation like this in Dubai required 25 people? 30 people? How do you hit back 20 THOUSAND Hamas fighters? Note that their leaders btw are usually dying in a very precise strikes, but the soldiers must be bombed. It is clear in any tactical book that you read.

Nobody so far managed to pinpont a few thousand army with precision strikes. Israel actually has way better stats in that respect than US, Russia, Turkey and UK. So cleaningness of the weapon is easily proven here.

Now I must go, but please post a short answer and I will continue to my other points about Israel. Or we could take it privately.
12:22 May 27, 2010 by Marko2010S

Yeah, let's carry on privately. Today, I'll drop you a message has my short explanation about a point that I wanted to write within this post but the forum has restriction of not exceeding 3000 letters. So please when you get my new message, then, you may reply back to me about all points you want.
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Soon it will look like this on your way home from work in Sweden. Photo: Anders Wiklund/TT

Should Sweden stick with summer time all year round?

'Don't turn the Pope into a global teddy bear'
Sweden's Queen Silvia and Princess Leonore visiting Pope Francis in the Vatican last year. Photo: Henrik Montgomery/TT

It's time to hold the Pope to account and make sure he turns his words about reform into action, argues a minister of the Swedish Church ahead of Pope Francis' visit to Sweden.

Löfven: 'Sweden will double its number of troops in Iraq'
Stefan Löfven and Haider al-Abadi during the visit on Monday. Photo: Henrik Montgomery/TT

Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven has promised to double his country's number of troops in Iraq following a meeting with Iraqi counterpart Haider al-Abadi on Monday.

Will Swedes soon be looking for fairtrade porn?
Should Swedes think fairtrade with porn? Photo: Karin Malmhav/SvD/TT

A fairtrade attitude to pornography would be beneficial, Sweden's health minister told The Local.

Presented by Stockholm University
Nordic fashion in focus at Stockholm University
Simon Paulin/imagebank.sweden.se

Nordic fashion took centre stage in the Swedish capital last week as Stockholm University hosted the “first-ever” academic conference looking at luxury and sustainability in the fashion industry.

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Blog updates

6 October

10 useful hjälpverb (The Swedish Teacher) »

"Hej! I think the so-called “hjalpverb” (auxiliary verbs in English) are a good way to get…" READ »


8 July

Editor’s blog, July 8th (The Local Sweden) »

"Hej readers, It has, as always, been a bizarre, serious and hilarious week in Sweden. You…" READ »

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