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Bildt condemns Ashtiani stoning sentence

AFP/The Local · 9 Sep 2010, 07:34

Published: 09 Sep 2010 07:34 GMT+02:00

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Ambassador Rasoul Eslami "was summoned this afternoon," ministry spokesman Kent Oeberg told AFP on Wednesday.

"He met with the ministry's director general for political affairs Björn Lyrvall, among others," he said, explaining the ambassador was called in over the case of Sakineh Mohammadi-Ashtiani, who fate has met with a storm of international reaction.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt condemned the sentence.

"We are against capital punishment in any case, but stoning is a particularly disgusting form of capital punishment, and Iran should realise that this is completely unacceptable," he told Swedish public radio.

On Wednesday, Vahid Kazemzadeh, a member of Iran's Islamic Human Rights Commission, said Mohammadi-Ashtiani's sentence had been suspended since July, Fars news agency reported.

Kazemzadeh said Mohammadi-Ashtiani's death sentence had been "suspended on

the orders of the head of the judiciary and will not be applied for the moment," confirming what Iranian officials have been saying since July.

Iranian judiciary officials say that Mohammadi-Ashtiani has been sentenced to death by stoning for adultery. She has also received a 10-year jail term for participating in her husband's murder.

Several governments and human rights bodies have denounced her stoning as barbaric, and some have even questioned whether she received a fair trial.

Story continues below…

Bildt credited the international uproar over the case for the suspension of the sentence.

"If we had not acted as we have over these past months, she would have presumably been killed by stoning by now," he said.

"To some extent, we have had an influence."

AFP/The Local (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

08:09 September 9, 2010 by Rick Methven
Iranian judiciary officials say that Mohammadi-Ashtiani has been sentenced to death by stoning for adultery. She has also received a 10-year jail term for participating in her husband's murder.

So in Iran, a bit of nookie on the side is a capital offence but Murder only gets you 10 years
09:11 September 9, 2010 by engagebrain
There is serious doubt about the performance of Iranian courts and therefore whether Mohammadi-Ashtiani is guilty of either a crime that we in Europe would recognize or even a crime under Iranian law.

The whole charade is based on a confession extracted under torture, which the accused tried to withdraw. The courts seem uninterested how a confession is obtained, which tells you all you need to know about justice in Iran.
09:26 September 9, 2010 by hpunlimited
Does it really matter what Sweden thinks? Sweden has its own country to take care of. If Iran wants to murder people, then let them.

The USA straps people to chairs and electricute them, poison them, gas them and even strap them to a pole and shot them.

Thank God Sweden is a civilized country.
09:30 September 9, 2010 by Keith #5083
"Article 74 of the Iranian penal code requires at least four witnesses -- four men or three men and two women -- for an adulterer to receive a stoning sentence, said Ahadi, of the International Committee Against Stoning. But there were no witnesses in Ashtiani's case. Often, said Ahadi, husbands turn wives in to get out of a marriage" (source: CNN)

No witnesses!!! ergo - No evidence, except a supposed 'confession' extracted under torture and later retracted..

She does not speak Farsi as she is of Azerbaijani descent and speaks Turkish.No interpretor was provided by the court as I understand it.

But get this - the Penal Code requires minimum 4 witnesses!?! Witnesses to adultery?? How do they witness to that?

In this case, there are NO witnesses anyway.
09:49 September 9, 2010 by Enchiladas
This is Sharia Law, my friends. And 1 out of every 5 Muslims in Denmark want to see this instituted there. I wonder how many in Sweden would like to see it? Probably much the same which is a pretty scary picture of the society that we live in.

Aside from that, of course this is barbaric and it's a good thing that Carl Bildt came out and said something whether the world cares or not. Sharia Law will always exist in the Middle East (and maybe soon in Europe) but the more intl condemnation is laid down upon acts of abomination such as this, the more often they can be prevented.
09:52 September 9, 2010 by Dr Love
You see Keith #5083,

Islam is religion of just , it asks you for something a hard prove which in million cases would not be provided . All people who commit adultery would do this hidden and it is hard to bring and find witness even in Europe.

So the message of islam is clear and it stops them from being stoned this is the law before coming of Prophet of Muhammad.

Media is also to be blamed that Iran says we dont stone and media is after iran.

The Islam has been hijacked by these media and extremists who present the religion 100% opposite
11:07 September 9, 2010 by seagull
@Dr Love

It isn't just Iran though is it? While all the muslims I know in Sweden are decent people, it seems that when it (Islam) is in control of a country, then the human rights in that country are not what anyone in the West would regard as particulalry just. Name a single country that is run on Sharia law that has a good record on human rights? Even more enlightened places such as Dubai have terribly lop-sided justice. People being jailed for 2 years for forgetting to take out a certain medicine they bought in a pharmacy in Europe, or one of a man who had a butt-end of a joint stuck in the tread of his shoe, or the poor bloke who had a poppy seed from an airport sandwich stuck to his jumper. These backward, primitive punishments happen all over the Islamic-run world. So even if Islam is a religion of peace, which I doubt, but even if it is, it seems that when taken up as policy by governments, it becomes barbaric, creates extremists to an extent that none of the other religions do, and causes a very one-sided view of "tolerance".
12:20 September 9, 2010 by Swedesmith
I have also met Muslim people who seem very nice and peaceful, but a religion that condones stoning a person to death, a religion that permits terrorism, a religion that promotes chopping off someones head with a dull knife...this is a religion I cannot support.
12:51 September 9, 2010 by flintis
The Swedish goverment should expel ALL Irainians as a protest, and bestow the highest award possible to Lars Vilks, sentence the 2 arsonists to 354 yrs each + deportation to the US for their bar-b-que accident, & ban all flights originating in Iran
13:06 September 9, 2010 by Keith #5083
# Dr. Love

Respectfully, I don't think it is the media or even extremists who are in charge of the gov of Iran or Iranian courts.

However, I accept the basic premise of your argument which simplified seems to be that a 'Holy Book' or ''religion', no matter how good and just is it's intentions, is always open to abuse, misuse and strange interpretation.

Herein lies the major problem for Islam: there appears to be so many interpretations, so many differing and even warring forms of Islam, it is extremely difficult for any 'ordinary non-Islamic person' to comprehend.

This particular case is just one more example.
13:30 September 9, 2010 by Marko2010S
@Keith #5083

How many times I have told you to zip your face and stop spouting despicable propaganda and lie about Islam?

I have told you over and over and over, You are ignorant buffoon. You read some lies about Islam and now you pretend and talk as you are the greatest Mufti ever.

BTW, the more you pretend that you know something and post lies about Islam, is the more that you prove how bloody-muppet you are.

Even though, you don't deserve to be taught, But I'll educate you little bit to embarrass you.

Witnesses aren't required at all, because the guiltier has admitted. So your entire arguement in your post #4 is invalid and worthless like yourself.

Witnesses are ONLY required if someone comes out of the blue to the court and claimed and accussed that ABC-Person has committed a sin or crime, and because Islam has the greatest teaches ever, it requires witnesses to prove and treat people fairly.


"this is a religion I cannot support."

Q)Who cares about you and about what you support?

A) None. We Muslims don't care about your opinion.

As a matter of fact, we (Muslims) know very well that there are many animals of you in the west who strongly support Israeli war criminals to burn and annihilate children with white phosphorus munitions.


"Name a single country that is run on Sharia law that has a good record on human rights?"

Answer me you super-bloody-goon, Who define "human rights"? Who made up that nonsense?

When on earth will westerners stop lying and being hypocrite?

Aren't the same countries who propose that nonsense (human rights) the same countries which met in Berlin (Berlin Conference of 1884-1885) to divide Africa among themselves to colonize the continent, steal resources, enslave human beings,...etc.

Europe and Europeans have never been civilized nor tolerant and they will never be as long as we have mentalities like yours. So just cut-the-crap and stop claiming that Europeans are angels and want to save humanity. I just don't buy it.
14:42 September 9, 2010 by seagull

Well for a peaceful muslim you resort to name calling pretty quickly.

As I said, I have no problem with individual muslims, it seems to be the group mentality that becomes extreme.

As for human rights. Some of them are obvious, such as equal rights for all humans regardless of gender, colour, age, sexuality.

And of course Europe has been responsible for many attrocities, but we are talking present day.

Question. Do you think it is right to stone a woman to death for adultery?
14:45 September 9, 2010 by Dr Love
There is nowhere God in Islam permit Muslims to be violent against.

There is verse in Quran which was revealed on the time when the non-Muslims broke the peace treaty and killed many Muslims . the verses came for that special period of time and those who were taking advantage of peace agreement and at night killing Muslims and it was for self defence to fight them . or God could say no no let them kill you. God understands the human abilities and nerves .

The paul teaching (not Jesus) to get another slap simply would not work in modern time . Israelis would slap you 100 times wat u would do then haahha , follow and be practical . So you know now the Islam never said to attack or kill someone or occupy. but says to defence if you are being attacked , but if they seek peace then give them. and do not be harsh to them for Allah doesnt like those who are harsh .
14:58 September 9, 2010 by sherkovic
wise men say 'you have no right to condemn the law that doesn't apply on you'
15:07 September 9, 2010 by Nika-NM
Marko2010S: Take a cold bath dude with some funny little ducks and frogs.
15:22 September 9, 2010 by seagull
@Dr Love

And that is what I hear from the muslims I know. My point was about "so called" Islamic states.

Question for you. Do you think men and women regardless of colour, age or sexuality should have equal rights?
16:18 September 9, 2010 by saveTiger
I am little curious on this one. Why is that only the woman is stoned for adultery? If that should be adultery, then some men should also have involved in that.. What happened to him? I am not sure whether he is too stoned or not. Does Islam forgives men who commit adultery and go on stoning women? Or does the witness could only identify the women and not the men. I heard somewhere that when a accusation is made on women, its she who has to prove innocence, but when accusation is made on men, its the women who has to prove him guilty. Either way women are the ones who are screwed.

And to morons who support stoning, Go watch the film " Stoning of soraya ". It might help you in understanding how horrible stoning could be. And some still say that Allah is the most compassionate and the most merciful. Ya merciful and compassionate enough to stone and suppress women, send kafirs to hell, and give 72 virgins to those who blew themselves up.. Hypocrites.
16:33 September 9, 2010 by Dr Love

The wrong Bush and its Israelis agents actions has created many extremists terrorists (terrorists creates terrorists), these terrorists are sicks and kill more Muslims than to kill non-muslims.

To answer your q.

in Islam we are taught that, every human black white red brown they are all from one parents Adam and Eve. And you are my cousin in fact but maybe you have different faith but in Islamic teaching you are my brother or sister. But Muslims are brother in faith, they believe in God, not monkey cow, sun moon ,ghost ,not a created things.

I hope this would give you an answer if not then yes i want equal rights for those who are good for humans, not for those who spread hate among us . and doing wrong things by the name of freedom of speech.
16:40 September 9, 2010 by saveTiger
//in Islam we are taught that, every human black white red brown they are all from one parents Adam and Eve. And you are my cousin in fact but maybe you have different faith but in Islamic teaching you are my brother or sister. //

Quite curious.. how come so many races come from one parents.. Were Adam and eve Arabians, or africans, or asians, or chinese looking, or indians or eskimos, or scandinavians, or thais, or south american tribes or which race do they belong. Dont blabber that its only god who knows. Try thinking logically.

//But Muslims are brother in faith, they believe in God, not monkey cow, sun moon ,ghost ,not a created things. //

If sun moon ghosts monkey and cows are created things, then who is the one who created the god. If you would say god can be neither created nor destroyed, then why cant the same logic apply to this universe? If universe must be god's creation then god must be someones creation.
16:47 September 9, 2010 by engagebrain
' 13:30 September 9, 2010 by Marko2010S

@Keith #508

Witnesses aren't required at all, because the guiltier has admitted

but under torture !

Marko, even without torture you admit to being a fool, with torture we could sign you up for a stoning fairly quickly.

The only way you contribution makes any sense is that you are right wing stooge.If you a really a supporter of the Iranian regime, they are in serious trouble.
17:06 September 9, 2010 by Marko2010S
@seagull #12

"of course Europe has been responsible for many attrocities, but we are talking present day."

You have illogical logic in justifying the colonization, slavery and killing.

"Question. Do you think it is right to stone a woman to death for adultery?"

I believe that Islam is the right religion and all its teaches are just perfect and very fair. Therefore: If a SINGLE man or woman commits adultery, then, s/he must be flogged 100 times. If a Married man or woman commits adultery, then, s/he must be stoned to death. If a divorced/widow man or woman commits adultery, then, the Mufti or the religious committee decide if this person must be stoned or flogged "Muslim Scholars have different opinions regarding the last case. However, the majority of them goes with the stoning punishment"
17:24 September 9, 2010 by Swedesmith

Q)Who cares about you and about what you support?

A) None. We Muslims don't care about your opinion.

I don't really give a rat's a-- whether you care about my opinion or not...as long as you stay in your own country and mind your own business. You can blow each other up, get freindly with your camels and goats...I don't care.

But when you move to my country and try to make me adopt your barbaric laws and customs, then I get my dander up.

Incidently, that also applies to the US when they try to force democracy down other countries throats. Touche.
17:28 September 9, 2010 by Enchiladas
....aaaaaand these are the people the Mona Sahlin (aka Mona Muslim) wants more of in Sweden. These are the people who the left-wing,PC nut-job crew here on The Local wants more of in Sweden. Please keep this in mind if/when you go to vote. :)
17:57 September 9, 2010 by Uncle
Agreed. As long as muslims sit back in the desert and behead each other, stone each other, cut hands and circumcise women, I would like to support the live and let live view. 

The problem is that after they establish that wonderful sharia law, the start running away from that horror in millions.

 Besides the impression that it gives about these self destructing geniuses, it is quite bothering that they would like to promote the ideas that they ran away from. 

I mean russian immigrants despise communist regimes and KGB regime of Putin. Chinese immigrants criticize Chinese government non-stop. 

But Muslims not only clap their hands in happiness whenever another thousand people died due to the actions of Muslim dictators, they actually support their host country to be "considerate" of their feelings and sensitive souls and not talk about their criminal governments. This is beyond me! 

So europeans also burned witches on a stake. But since then they DID advance,  while Muslims only regressed. Even shooting a person is too modern for them.  They need to stone her. Why not eat her also? Europeans also did I once upon a time. Oh, sorry, the blessed Koran from BEFORE medieval times did not mention eating people within punishment definitions and that is WHY she is not eaten. Otherwise, who knows? 

This religion is TOO peaceful and loving. 
18:33 September 9, 2010 by Marko2010S
@Swedesmith #22

FYI... I'm a Swede. So, your response is so disgraceful and disrespectful for all Muslim Swedes.

@Uncle #24

"So europeans also burned witches on a stake. But since then they DID advance"

Thanks God you admitted these facts by yourself.


- How many centuries did it take for Europeans to evolve?

I think you have no right at all to criticize Muslims or their way of thinking or their behaviour. Be fair to them and give them the same period of time that Europeans took to evolve.

Why do you want Muslims to advance in shorter period, why you are judging them so fast? Or do you think Muslims are super human beings?

As for your another point "Why not eat her also?"

Come on that is silly !

Maybe you don't believe in God, But I do beleive in God, and I know very well that God's instructions are quite reasonable.

However, if you don't like Islam, you can argue day-and-night about what is sensible and what isn't. The whole idea is that there's something called faith and this is what many people has no clue about.
19:36 September 9, 2010 by GefleFrequentFlyer
Shouldnt all of Sweden stand up and boycott anything Iranian for such a trampling on basic human rights?

No FreeGaza boat to rescue Miss Ashtiani this time?

Oh, you guys don't want to play that game anymore?

Such a shame. Enjoy your Sharia Law in a few years....
19:57 September 9, 2010 by Uncle

Where were muslims before they became muslims? Did they appear from the soil like in Mummy movie from the second that "release" of Islam was officially issued?

Islam came from the region of Saudi Arabia, where people had a culture for WAY longer than Europeans. Actually these people were both richer and more advanced up to plus minus 13th century than the Europeans. I am talking about economical, scientific, military, medical and exploring advances. Why would they need longer to evolve?

To be fair, muslims had way more time and opportunity to evolve. Without Islam, arabs would reach Renaissance and industrial revolution way before Europeans. Without Islam, democracy would have been implemented in middle east way faster than in Europe. But no. Muslims had to stay i one place and stone women. Much more fun.

HOW... HOW stoning a woman is reasonable? Even if it is a guy. Even if he killed and raped and robbed. How is it reasonable? Why is this better than eating the guy?

Did you see stoning EVER in your life? Go to the internet. Not youtube - they block such stuff. There are plenty other services. There are few cute movies of illegal mob stoning in Kenya (during the riots there). Look at this and then come here and spread the love of Islam, Marko.

GefleFrequentFlyer. Good freaking point. No Free Ashianti, no free Cyprus, no free Somali, no free southern Sudan, no Free Kurds...
20:48 September 9, 2010 by Keith #5083
Converts say more to convince themselves than for any other purpose and nowhere are they more fanatical than in the ability to convince themselves that any action, no matter how brutal, dishonest or unloving, is justifiable.

The simple fact is that secular society is now teaching morality and ethics to the 'old religions',e.g. the Catholic Church Paedo scandal. Secular society is more loving, more true to the principles of religion, than many 'religious societies'.

It is in the nature of things that in their death throws the old religions will fragment and become more volatile. This is the problem they all now face as the truth of their actions are manifest in society and cannot now, bless the internet, be hidden from view.

This is exactly the case with this woman. The 'courts and government system' of Iran is being held in ridicule for it's contradictory stance. They bring dishonour on their religion. In just the same way, the State of Israel has dishonoured Judaism. The Vatican (and others like Terry Jones)dishonoured Christianity.

We are witnessing the age when 'the experience of authority is surrendering to the authority of experience'.
20:49 September 9, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Our man Carl Bildt, has told it as it is; as a human being. Swedish. Statesmanly Foreign Minister, husband and Father.

Perhaps you don't want to be proved right, or to be proved wrong by what may soon transpire.

In my view the tone of this discussion could be lowered a few decibels; it is not Islam that is on trial by passionate Islamophobists , it's people, a woman, a mother that's on trial .

This is the Muslim Holy Month of Ramadan - the month of Mercy - and the appeal is not an arrogant appeal, aimed at defeating, subverting or circumventing Justice, it is an appeal to the quality of compassion and not to barbarity, its opposite. You are talking to a people whose civilisation, power and influence, goes back a long way to when when some of our ancestors of another life were still crawling around and keeping themselves warm in their caves.

So, in my view, any appeal should be an appeal to the higher nature, more spiritually evolved, not the inextricably caught, duly witnessed by 4, and found wanting according to the strict dictates, of Legislated Sharia Court Justice

21:07 September 9, 2010 by Keith #5083
"Cornelius Hamelberg

Beautifully said, kind sir :)
21:11 September 9, 2010 by Uncle
WHY oh WHY whenever Israel defends itself, everyone jumps on Israel?

When muslims are executing someone, people mention Israel. Whenever a priest wants to burn Koran, muslims in Iran blame Zionists (or Israelis)? Whenever hundreds of thousands are dying in Africa at Muslim hand, muslims point at Israel? Whenever muslims are exploding in Russia, Pakistan and smack planes into buildings in US, people start discussing Israel? Whenever Jews are attacked by muslims, certain mayors blame Israel... Even when Israeli arab kills few people in US, people start screaming about zionism (and then thoughtfully shutting up, whenever the non-Jewishness of the killer becomes obvious)?

I read that now there are thousands of refugees that climb over the fence into Israel from the blessing of Islam. Now, when the govt is talking about deportation of some 400 illegal Sudanese families, kibbutz movement declared that these families will be taken in by 22 different kibbutzes to help them avoid deportation.

At this time, Sudanese are murdering, Iranians are stoning, Somalians are pirating, Saudis are cutting off hands and sentencing people to be paralyzed, Turks are using chemical weapons and napalm against Kurds and everything is as normal. As it should be.

How is this unclear to all the swedes? EH?
21:30 September 9, 2010 by GefleFrequentFlyer

The answer is simple: Built-in anti-semitism as reminant of the horrors from the past.(read: Nazism)

Until Sweden as a whole comes to grips with and deals with it, we will continually have these hypocritical stances and statements eminating from the whole spectrum of Swedish society.
22:26 September 9, 2010 by cowboykodp
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"

01:45 September 10, 2010 by Essjay
Comment: A few years ago while working as a Head Chef in England we had a new young guy join our team who was English and had been abroad for a while . Got talking to him and he had been living in Saudia Arabia with his Dad.so was interested in life as an ex pat as there are loads there and told him that ok the money was obviously good there but I didn,t like the regime in control ,too severe on it,s own people and mentioned stoning to death as an example whereupon he assured me it was perfectly correct ! I totally disagreed with him and then the real horror shock came when he told me he had participated in one ,thought he was lying or bragging and then he told me I didn,t understand the people and to assimilate was to participate. Still thought the guy was a fruitcake but too much detail emerged and realised he was not lying and I was now talking to a murderer ! He enjoyed it ! He lost his job that night ,lucky for him as everyone wanted to kick his ass ! Strange , not really ,look how many Brits go to Spain and take their families to Bullfights and pretend to be animal lovers. When the English used to burn their own ,or hung ,drawn and quartered ,the mob mentality ruled ,it,s not a Muslim problem it,s a human problem ! Gassing , Electrocution ,specially made vehicles made for China for mass executions ! Humans hate humans ,humans love humans ,humans kill and torture humans ! Humans love cruelty ,other animals do not ! The most intelligent species on planet Earth!???????????????! For a really good read about who we are and our peculiarities may I suggest "Colonization" by Harry Turtledove , who writes about Alternative History , in this case Aliens invade in WW2 , all his novels show the true horror , humour and more ,about who we are and from an aliens perspective... Good reading for Winter!.
03:37 September 10, 2010 by laura ka baal
Jesus says in Chp of Mathews Chapter-5, Verse-17.

To stone to death for adultery, yes in the old original version not the new tampered one.
09:12 September 10, 2010 by calebian22

"I think you have no right at all to criticize Muslims or their way of thinking or their behaviour. Be fair to them and give them the same period of time that Europeans took to evolve."

1500 years since Mohammed and that is not enough time to evolve? How long is enough to let go of barbarism?


In Matthew 5 21-48, Jesus is reminding the disciples about the original Mosiac Law as a comparison to his new teachings that are not eye for an eye based. To what old original version are your referring? A statement such as yours, requires a reference in order to have any credibility.
09:18 September 10, 2010 by Marko2010S

"Where were muslims before they became muslims?"

Arabs were there of course. They didn't appear from the soil like in Mummy movie. Actually these idolaters were tribes who kill and steal each other. So they were living in dark ages according to the principle "Survival of the Strongest".

Then, the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) came with the message of Islam and helped all these people. Islam taught them NOT to kill, Islam taught them NOT to drink, Islam taught them NOT commit adultery, Islam prevented them to marry more than one unless the man makes sure that he treats the wives equally, Islam taught them to fast Ramadan and feel how poor people suffer. Islam taught them to donate money twice a year at least (Zakat).

All in All, Islam shapes Arabs' lives. Islam made them nicer and better human beings.

Some tribes wanted to kill prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and get rid of Islam, but they couldn't NOT because prophet Muhammad was powerful, It was because they know very well who he is and his past. They know that prophet Muhammad never lied, never steal, never killed, never slept with any woman. So these tribes knew that he is right but they didn't follow him just out of arrogancy.

As for you another comment: "HOW... HOW stoning a woman is reasonable? Even if it is a guy. Even if he killed and raped and robbed. How is it reasonable? Why is this better than eating the guy?"

Look, I told earlier that I believe in God, deep down in my heart I know that I was created to worship Allah and I must follow all the teaches.

As I explained above that Islam shapes peoples' lives, So such kind of punishments are made to build a perfect society (Or at least semi-perfect). The idea of these punishments is NOT to torture people NOR to be applied. The idea is to put some limits and red lines that no one dares to exceed.

Islam proposes these punishments to make people NOT to steal each other or hump each other where STD and HIUV spread or sell drugs ….etc

My point to you is do not look at these punishments as punishments, look at them as auxiliary tools to control the WRONG desires that human beings might have.
09:33 September 10, 2010 by Keith #5083
#laura ka baal


Pls state your version and the precise chapter and verse. I believe you have an error in your reference as Matt C5 vs 17 is the Sermon on the Mount -. Your reference does not show in either 'Textus Receptus' (from the Reformation era) or Westcott and Hort's original Greek translation (1881), King James version, Revised Standard Version, Moffat's.

Or do you mean the famous passage about 'he who is without sin cast the first stone'


Please check your chapter, verse and version and quote to us, I would love to see where that comes from.
11:11 September 10, 2010 by flintis
@Marko2010S: We the West/Europeans have advanced since the heady days of Biblical times 2000yrs ago. The Islamic religion is approxiamately 632 yrs younger than Christianity & it shows, you have not advance as we have, & are still living in the "dark ages".

Unfortunately when it comes to punishment for capital offences we've become brainwashed by the politcally correct (blinkered morons) & we refuse to execute terrorist, murderers, rapists, war criminal etc.

If life is so wonderful with Islam, why have so many "muslims" fled their homeland? You keep proclaiming how terrible we are in the West yet Europe is now full of "Islamic refugees"

If the Islamic laws are so just, then why are the "4 witness's" required by law not being held to trial for their obvious involvement in adultery & sexual debauchery?

@Keith #0583: they're the only digits she (ms kabaal) can write
11:49 September 10, 2010 by Keith #5083
Treasured and valued Marko2010s,

The strength of your belief is beautiful to see and I am sure that no-one here would wish to do anything to seek to destroy or hurt your belief. Equally, many here ask the same of you in respect of their beliefs.


I am sure she can write more than that. Let's keep it respectful, huh?

The puzzle for me is this: whether Abraham and Isaac, or Ibrahim and Ishmael, Judaism and Islam have common roots and some very common traditions. The Middle East was a 'melting pot' of philosophical and religious ideas.

How is it then that some have progressed further than others?
12:25 September 10, 2010 by Marko2010S

- " The Islamic religion is approxiamately 632 yrs younger than Christianity".

You and Uncle's post#27 are contradicting each other. You say it is younger and Uncle says it is older…huh?

You see my point? You guys in the West have wrong faked idea about Islam and its cultures. Wrong facts and wrong info. Each one of you has different wrong and awful stereotype.

- As for you point regarding the development, the entire humanity knows very well that Muslims were leaders and pioneers in all fields of science, math, medicine, architecture…etc

Christians were coming to Al-Andalus to learn from Muslims. So, stop acting like a goon and don't say Muslims were not developed.

One tipping point you must remember before you open your mouth and talk about others is the colonization and how much it has destroyed. So don't ignore that point. Remember that your grand grand grand grand father came to these people country and steals from its natural resources to build a house for you and the next generations.

- As for: "If life is so wonderful with Islam, why have so many "muslims" fled their homeland? You keep proclaiming how terrible we are in the West yet Europe is now full of "Islamic refugees""

The West US, UK, France….etc destroyed the countries of these poor refugees with F16 and B52. So they ran away to survive. How can you deny human beings the right of living? Do you want them to die?

- "If the Islamic laws are so just, then why are the "4 witness's" required by law not being held to trial for their obvious involvement in adultery & sexual debauchery?"

This is the difference between me and you. Muslims see the beauty of Islam's teaches through these things. I know that non-Muslims finds it hard to understand but I will help you to do so.

The idea of requiring 4 witnesses is to make applying the punishment impossible. This is pretty obvious. Islam doesn't want anyone to be punished for his or her mistakes, that's why Islam made it soooooo hard to prove that ABC-person is guilty.

Tell me, if a man or woman wants to commit adultery, then, s/he will do it secretly. Therefore, no one can prove it. (BTW, I am talking about Islam as Islam - I don't care what Iranians or Nigerians are doing. I am telling you what Islam's law.).

You see?

In addition to that, Islam protects people reputation … Do you know how?

Assume that you are a Muslim, and there is another Muslim guy called "Ahmed" who went to court and claim that you committed an adultery (Even if you really did it!), and he brought only 2 witnesses…. In this case, Islam's law says that "Ahmed" and the another 2 witnesses MUST be flogged because they tried to destroy your reputation. Also, to teach them manners of not accusing people without clear and adequate evidences.
12:53 September 10, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Once again we could take a look at the late Emeritus Bishop of Stockholm and Professor Emeritus, Harvard Divinity School Krister Stendahl's advice:

“(1) When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies.

(2) Don't compare your best to their worst.

(3) Leave room for "holy envy." (By this Stendahl meant that you should be willing to recognize elements in the other religious tradition or faith that you admire and wish could, in some way, be reflected in your own religious tradition or faith.)”

There are those who think that criticising Islam is their sacred duty. There are those who it seems would be pleased to replace the hijab and burqa and every Muslim woman and man's sense of modesty, with nudity, serial monogamy, mass adultery and fornication, leading to the general decadence that would signal the collapse and final end of Islam and its civilisation. There are others yet who would like to unarm and disarm each and every Muslim, so that Muslims are defenceless when non-Muslims come for their oil, plutonium, uranium, gold and other precious minerals.( Of course if Saddam had had a nuclear bomb or two in his possession, Bush would not have had the courage to invade. Who has the courage to invade North Korea or Iran and face the terrible consequences?

At this point, what is clear is that a major disaster has been averted in the United States of America, since Pastor Jones has wisely decided to not go ahead with his heinous crime of burning Islam's Holy Book. Hopefully – pragmatically speaking, no Swedish lunatic is anxious to attempt the same kind of nonsense here.



Christianity went through the Reformation, after which there was the Enlightenment, as a result of which religion has receded into the background, replaced by secularism, rock and roll and other certainties arrived at through scientific inquiry

There are areas open to reform and modernisation in Islam – especially in Shia Islam – as made clear in Askh Dahlen's book:


It is not up to the Islamophobes to produce a reformation in Islam ; the impulses are already there from within in the countries where Islam is gestating, and the rest will come from the realities of being in touch with the outside/ modern world and voices from within, like Abdolkarim Soroush's :


Carl Bildt's voice is a very necessary one.

There are many Iranians who think that the chopping off of hands for theft and stoning to death for adultery does not belong to the age of nuclear technology in Iran, nor does the deplorable state of their prisons.
12:57 September 10, 2010 by flintis
@ Marko 2010S #The West US, UK, France….etc destroyed the countries of these poor refugees with F16 and B52. So they ran away to survive. How can you deny human beings the right of living? Do you want them to die?#

When precisely did the UK send these "F16 & B52's" to Somalia, Iran, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, Egypt, Tunisia, Nigeria, Syria, Lebenon, Serbia, Albania, Morocco etc etc??

(by the way the UK has never had B52's or F16's in the Air Force)

I'm not denying anyone the right to to live, & it's Islam that's killing them. Have you ever heard of a Evangelist or Anglican suicide bomber?

What's beautiful about stoning somebody to death??

I do not care what "Uncle" has written if you ARE a muslim you would know that the Islamic year is 1431 compared to "Christian" year of 2011 a difference of some 580 yrs, giving Christanity the distingtion of being the older

Nothing wrong with the death penalty of a good "birching" if the crime fits the punishment here in the "civilised" West.

How is that protecting people reputation? 3 people have just had their reputation detroyed in your little story, talk about hypocrisy.

What I do beleive is that you are either a brainwashed fool, or an antogonist of the worst kind, a sanctimonious prat.
12:58 September 10, 2010 by Keith #5083
It is beautiful to consider the 'purest interpretation', yet the fact remains that this woman has already been lashed twice and is still likely to have the death penalty even though the requirements of the law - and of the Koran - have not been fulfilled.

This is exactly what I mean, in whatever religious society it is, when the purity of religion is abused or misused. This is exactly what I mean when I say that this case dishonours Islam where "The idea of requiring 4 witnesses is to make applying the punishment impossible".

To draw attention to such contradictions is not to be 'anti-Islamic', any more than it is to be 'anti-christian' to draw attention to failures or misuses in that religion. It is exactly the opposite. It is simply asking that the purity of the religious belief be adhered to, for when it is not it is a great disservice to that religion and to humanity if we truly believe that each of these religions emanate from the 'One God'.
14:20 September 10, 2010 by Marko2010S
@ flintis #43

Truly you are a mindless and worthless piece sh**

Most of the countries you mentiond you bloody-goon were colonized and exploited badly by the West. The West steals everything good from there, even when they left, the West appointed dictators and leaders to rule the people and control them.

"if you ARE a muslim you would know that the Islamic year is 1431"

You just showed how smart-jester you are. The years you are counting are related to Hijra and has nothing to do with beginning of Islam.

You see how people in the West no nothing about Islam? You see how they argue about wrong things?

Henceforth, don't open your mouth for the next decade about anything related to my religion. Go and open discussions about the Beers and hockey.

@Keith #5083 #40

I have nothing agnist you or your belief. My point to you was that "Please don't talk about Islam as you know everything". Make your argument as open questions which lead into constructive argument. Don't state them as facts because they are not. There are so many mindless elements out there who come and read the posts and if they read something you wrote about Islam "which is inaccurate" they will take it as true-facts.

It hurts me deeply when you spread lies/wrong-ideas about Islam. You said "The niqab has nothing to do with religion" … this is something so crazy to say. If you respect yourself you wouldn't make such a statement. You are not a Muslim, I'm not sure if you know Arabic and you didn't read all Scholars' opinions about this issue.

Just please DON'T talk about Islam, even if you quote from the holy Koran itself, because it is easy for people to decontextualize phrases, also you don't know the occasion of each phrases.

@Uncle #24 and @ Swedesmith #22

@ Swedesmith #22 "as long as you stay in your own country and mind your own business. You can blow each other up, get freindly with your camels and goats...I don't care."

@Uncle #24 "Agreed. As long as muslims sit back in the desert and behead each other, stone each other, cut hands and circumcise women, I would like to support the live and let live view."

Huh? The woman will be stoned in Iran NOT in the city center of Stockholm…. You guys just said we don't care. Just leave Muslims alone. Don't attack or criticize them.

You see the hypocrisy of the West? You guys say we don't care about what you are doing as long as you are in your caves. So now we want to follow our sharia law in our own countries. Why you poking your noses into other people's business!

Leave us (Muslims) alone!

@Uncle # 24

"This religion is TOO peaceful and loving."

Indeed it is!

When you meet a Muslim regardless his or her native language or cultural background, The first thing that s/he tells you is "Peace be upon you (As-Salamu Alaykum)".

You see the beauty of this great religion.
16:07 September 10, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Shana Tova!

As Marx ( Groucho of course) said, “"These are my principles. And if you don't like them, I have others."

Tomorrow is nine years since 911. Let us all pray that nothing happens tomorrow.

They have not run out of bombs, nor has the other side run out of virgins, for that matter. For the warmongers who would like to impose their Western concept of Islam and democracy and oust those who are opposed to them by overwhelming military force, television and subtle propaganda there's as always, the military option:


As Marko2010S has rightly pointed out, about old times,

“Most of the countries you mentiond you bloody-goon were colonized and exploited badly by the West. The West steals everything good from there, even when they left, the West appointed dictators and leaders to rule the people and control them”

The fact is that even with “Middle East Peace” time is a factor. About immediate time, Louis Farrakhan, has often with some fear and trepidation and some vindictive excitement too, talked about “the shock of the hour”:

18:07 September 10, 2010 by Keith #5083
It would be interesting to know in which items in my comments, quoted from Islamic sources, were supposed to be 'innacurate' and which 'school of Islamic interpretation' considers them innacurate.

The 'niqab' statement is a direct quote from an Iranian (woman) journalist. I assumed that she would know better than I what she was talking about. Am I wrong? Does she not know better than I do?

Always the main thrust of my argument in respect of religion (no matter which religion) is that the principles of that religion are often vacated or contradicted by persons in authority who 'claim to be empowered ' by that particular religion.

My point is that by so doing they do not honour the religion they claim to represent.

Sakineh Mohammadi-Ashtiani is paying the price for this contradiction between what you say the Koran tells us and what the Islamic court/government does. Will you please help us to understand this puzzle?

Just on a point of historical accuracy: T.E.Lawrence gave you back Damascus - against the will of his government - but there was no unity amongst the Arabs, so the city services failed and they left it to the British.
20:31 September 10, 2010 by Marko2010S
@Keith #5083 #47

It is my fault. I am mistaken because I thought you are a human being. I promise you that I will never ever direct any comment to you anymore. Simply because you don't deserve my words.

"It would be interesting to know in which items in my comments"

Don't play-stupid!

I was honest and clear unlike you. you said "The niqab has nothing to do with religion". and I told you this is something you have no right to say. And now you play-stupid and say you are quoting Iranian journalist....it is like me qouting my Christian friend and consider his words 100% correct, and Icome here to post them as facts.
20:32 September 10, 2010 by Uncle
Marko - from the beginning.

You admitted that regardless of the horror of the punishment, you, as a believer look at the punishment not as punishment but as...... etc. You are being a demagogue. Stoning to death is a horrible as giving to sharks or slicing a person slowly to pieces . No way to escape this truth!

Muslim countries WERE developed in the 11th 12th centuries. What happened to that progress? Eh? United states harmed you then already?

In regards to bombers of the US and UK. Let's start that before Saddam attacked Kuwait and Osama attacked US, there were no bombers attacking muslims. However, there were still millions of muslims running to the west. How come? Besides, as flintis mentioned, why countries that were never attacked have enormous emigration rate from the best religion in the world? Eh?`

"You guys just said we don't care. Just leave Muslims alone. Don't attack or criticize them. "

As I said, if muslims would not flood the west and would not try to shape the life here, I would not care about what they do to their own people, like I care about the traditions of Zulu.

However, muslims are very good in demanding freedom of religion, freedom of moving into Europe and freedom of getting citizenship here, with the west shutting up about what is going on in muslim countries.

Want that the west would leave you alone? Sit tight like Japanese do on their island and nobody cares what they do. Even N.Koreans are allowed to have concentration camps and people do not care, because they do not come here and demand to build huge shrines that glorify Kim Chen Ir.

"When you meet a Muslim regardless his or her native language or cultural background, The first thing that s/he tells you is "Peace be upon you (As-Salamu Alaykum)"."

I read that this is what the suicide bomber said to the guard of the market before exploding in the car in Vladikavkaz yesterday. I see the beauty of it.

And Marko, I did not say that Christianity is older than Islam. I said that the European culture is way younger that the culture of the people who became muslims. These people existed WAY longer, Marko. Why do they need more time to develop than Europeans?

Or do the people become people only with monotheism? Well then, Greeks and chinese were lucky as hell, being animals and still creating huge empires that shape the world until now!
20:58 September 10, 2010 by Keith #5083

Why is it that you answer with offensive remarks about another person's integrity instead of answering the points that are made?

I guess you have no answer.

In respect of the Iranian woman journalist, living in Iran, her words are considered of sufficient authority that she is respected by Immams and Islamic scholars in the west. Her knowledge is far more than yours.

Which brings me to my final point: if I should not accept her words or those of leading Islamic scholars then by what authority do you claim that we here on this discussion board should give any credence, or take any notice, of your ill-informed and agressive vitriol?

In a final twist of irony in this case, the British Museum has just agreed to allow the oldest known writings of 'human rights', the Cyrus Cylinder, to be displayed in Tehran it's country of origin. It dates back 2500 years. Perhaps this may return that brutal regime to some knowledge of human rights since clearly their interpretation of the Koran does not.
21:11 September 10, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
On the one hand there is “The shock of the hour” ( from 1992):


And then on the other hand there is “The danger with fanatics”. The last word, which is also the best word is from Carl Bildt.

I rest my case:

22:13 September 10, 2010 by americanska
These crap countries have been behaving the same way since the dawn of civilization. I don't think they will ever progress.
00:25 September 11, 2010 by Keith #5083
"We want to build societies and a world that is instead characterised by tolerance, respect and understanding"

This is what Carl Bildt wrote and I totally agree.

However, as has been made clear by some comments on this discussion group, what we want seems to have little import.

It takes more than just us to achieve this objective.

For those who want to see a tolerant and respectful response google "heartsong+memphis" and check out the video at huffingtonpost. This is far more representative of the Muslims/Christians I know.

It is perfectly possible to achieve Carl Bildt's suggestion - if both sides are willing.
14:36 September 11, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Keith #5083,

Simplistically and from the heart,

there is no doubt that just like Carl Bildt, the people of Iran also say, "We want to build societies and a world that is instead characterised by tolerance, respect and understanding"

On the subject of love and Islam, there is the al-Quran and al-Waddud ( the Loving) is one of the names ascribed to the Creator.

There are many personal histories about great love between Muslims,between man and the queen of creation; there are many literary works too, in Arabic and Farsi. The monument called the Taj Mahal, in Agra, India is also concrete testimony to such love.( the Muslims ruled great swathes of India for some 800 years.)

In an ideal Muslim state, in which there is an equitable distribution of wealth, there is no thief; the national treasury provides welfare – and it is in that sense that Abu Dharr al-Gifari is regarded as Islam's first socialist.

In my view, if the economy is OK, then the population at large is not so economically stressed as to be committing haram acts such as bribery, prostitution and corruption.

When a Muslim country is economically stressed, then it is a little more difficult for Muslims to be good Muslims, especially if the leaders are unjust.( If the price of bread were to go up 50%, there would be a revolution in Egypt. )

The Muslim countries are all members of the United Nations and subscribe to the articles enshrined in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, with probable reservations and tensions about articles 18 and 19.


There are a number of authoritative Muslim/ Islamic commentaries on the Document, of which I am particularly familiar with at least two:



As to the issue of crime and punishment from a Sharia Law point of view, the report from a Human Rights Conference held in Saudi Arabia in 1972 should prove enlightening ( the Vatican had sent a representative to the Conference I read the whole report in 1986 and was impressed by the statistical evidence that showed a low crime rate. One of the learned Saudi Scholars attributes this to the severity of punishment actually acting as a deterrent.

From around the time of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire (of which Palestine was a province of Syria) Islamic lands have been colonized and under siege, enemies within and without, causing rulers to tighten their grip or lose more to the kuffar.

Kuffar arrogance and greed is also the problem.

Last night, I got as far as page 133-34 of Rabbi Jonathan Sacks' “Future Tense: Jews, Judaism, and Israel in the Twenty-First Century”, closed the book after these six paragraphs:

“If there were only universals, the world would consist of empires, each claiming the totality of truth and each demonstrating that truth by attempting to conquer or convert everyone else. When, in 1532, Pizarro and his Spanish troops massacred the Incas, seized their land and took their vast treasures of gold, he told Atahualpa, ruler of the Incas:

“”We come to conquer this land... that all may come to a knowledge of God and of his

Holy Catholic Faith; and by reason of our good mission, God, the creator of heaven and earth and of all things in them, permits this, in order that you may know him and come out from the bestial and diabolic life that you lead...When you have seen the errors in which you live, you will understand the good that we have done you by coming to your land...Our Lord permitted that your pride should be brought low and that no Indian should be able to offend a Christian.””

If there is only one truth, and you have it, then others do not. They live in error, and to9 save them from error you can claim religious justification for conquering, converting or even killing them. That has been the source of many crimes and much imperialism in the past and present, and that is why Judaism is a protest against empires.

If, on the other hand, there are only particulars - only a multiplicity of cultures and ethnicities with no universal moral principles to bind them – then the natural state of the world is a ceaseless proliferation of warring tribes. That is where we are today, in a morally relativist world with ethnic conflicts, violence and terror scarring the face of many parts of the globe.

The Abrahamic covenant as understood by Judaism is a principled way of avoiding these two scenarios. Jews belonged somewhere, not everywhere. Yet the God they worshipped was the God of everywhere, not just somewhere. So Jews were commanded to be neither an empire nor a tribe, harbouring neither universal aspirations nor tribal belligerence. Theirs was to be a small land but a significant one, for it was there, and there alone, that they were to live their destiny.

That destiny was to create a society that would honour the proposition that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. It would be a place in which freedom of some would not lead to the enslavement of others. It would be the opposite of Egypt, whose bread of affliction and bitter herbs of slavery they were to eat every year on the festival of Passover to remind them of what they were to avoid.”
19:26 September 11, 2010 by Marko2010S

Muslims were well-developed and we both know very well that when it comes to historical facts the entire humanity testifies that Arabs and Muslims have contributed a lot to the prosperity of human beings.

Al-Andalus (Which was destroyed by your grandfathers) was the golden period of develop for Muslims. All Europeans were coming to beg Muslims to teach them and Muslims were too helpful. So Al-Andalus was the main center and the heart of all Arabs and Muslims.

1492 was the beginning of the End for Muslims' development. Because the last Muslims leader gave up the last city of Al-Andalus (Granada) based on agreement that Muslims must continue living in Spain normally, But as usual Europeans lie, and they didn't fulfil their promise.Muslims who were there suffered and punished then they were deported ALL in 1610.

Now, in 1610 Arabs and Muslims were defeated badly and they lost great deal of treasure (Knowledge).... So it is pretty natural that any culture goes down and suffer because of these conditions.

A little bit after that, your grandfathers from Europe started their satanic plans to slice, divide, colonize, exploit, steal, enslave and kill Arabs and Africans.

Most recently, Europeans gave Fake-Independence to these countries after they make sure that they have appointed dictators who obey them.

BTW, don't forget the hussite crusade(s), and the destructions that has caused.

Come on.... and you blame why Muslims are not developed ....

Look Uncle, in a nutshell Arabs will develop when they get rid of their dictators (That seems impossible, since the West support these dictators).
22:02 September 11, 2010 by Uncle
I am sorry, Marko... Can I ask you a personal question? The question is - WHAT the hell are you banging on about?

Colonized? Enslaved? Did you even attend a high school? Or is it the quality of muslim schools? Did you hear the term Ottoman Empire? Did you know that this MUSLIM empire ruled the Middle East for 6 centuries? Or do you consider the 20 years of French and Brittish mandate over territories of the Ottoman Empire after the WWI as "hundreds of years of slavery, colonization and stealing"? Do you even hear yourself talk here?

6 hundred years muslims ruled muslims and DID NOT advance. 600 years. Even asians advanced faster while being under actual colonization. In regards to Indonesia and Malaysia - one could see the direct effect of Islam. Total stoppage of progress, removal of 50% of population from work market (hint - these 50% usually have boobs and they like to chat on the phone a lot with relatively squeaky voices), fatwas that forbid certain trade or scentific advances etc.

Christianity did this as well, but the people actually advanced and created industrial revolution and freedom of an individual. What did sharia countries create? What, Marko? A system of blaming the west? Well that is an achievement.

BTW, which dictator is supported? When US tried to remove a MUSLIM dictator of Somali who starved 2 million on purpose, muslims started to cry and complain. When Saddam is overthrown, muslims complain. When Iran is blockaded, muslims complain. When Syria is ignored, muslims complain. When Sudanese leader is requested to attend Hague, muslims complain. When Taliban is overthrown, muslims - what? That is right - complain.

WHO is supported, Marko? Couple of dictators from the rich countries? Incidentally these countries advance a little more than those who did not advance at all. So how can you blame western support and at the SAME TIME complain that these dictators are attacked and suppressed? You have to decide!
23:17 September 11, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
As for the tolerance that we so highly espouse, here is one more chapter (and it's widely known that the Jews of India have never experienced anti-Semitism in India and have to read about this all-pervasive phenomena as only having occurred outside of Mother India


(Needless to say, as soon as the missionaries arrived at Goa, they wanted to convert everybody by full missionary baptismal immersion, not in the Jordan but in the Hindu's Sacred River Ganges...
00:41 September 12, 2010 by Uncle
and Marko, you know what, trying to get yourself in one boat with Africa, is like raping a woman and then asking her out...

Read about how muslims colonized, raped, stole and enslaved northern Africa, Sudan, Somali and Chad and then try and see that as a difference to the above mentioned geographical places, Europeans built universities, schools, roads, electrical lines and hydro-electrical stations.

Muslims on the other hand built mosques and gallows in Africa. And that is it.

There is no muslim land in Africa that has some hint to infrastructure or education. It is embarrassing that you are trying to picture the conquering, enslaving, submitting and invading muslims as little cute victims who did not progress because of Europeans who never colonized them.
00:57 September 12, 2010 by Keith #5083
The exercise of religious duty will not atone for the fault of an abusive tongue.
01:10 September 12, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Thankfully, the Terrorist Memorial Day hath come and passed without incident or bomb blast.

Prayers for those who lost their lives and for the comforting of their families and friends.


Terrorist memorial Day or “Militant Islamic Awareness Day” as reported in the English tongue:

11:16 September 12, 2010 by Keith #5083
A man cannot be a Muslim till his heart and TONGUE are so
07:57 September 13, 2010 by Marko2010S

There's no point to lash out and questioning about my education. It's pretty clear that your enthusiasm to criticize Islam and Muslims leads you to talk about irrelevant things and you presented them as evidences.

Our discussion revolves about the Research&Development, and I bluntly provided you the chronological sequence of that period. I gave you the main reasons behind why the development has stopped completely.

You decided NOT to listen. You didn't want to acknowledge that Muslims were the most developed nation on earth between (711 until 1492) (BTW, This point completely disproves and disparages your entire argument that "Islam stops people from Development"!). You started telling things about Ottoman Empire (Who cares about them? - Once again, our topic is Sciences, Research, Development and Architecture. It is NOT about anything else. AFAIR, Ottoman Empire was powerful empire but wasn't a bright in Sciences).

Also, you brought funny examples (Somali, Saddam, Sudan) about how the West helps Muslims to get rid of dictators. Why you intentionally ignored the real dictators who rule the main Arab countries like Egypt, Gulf countries, Morocco, Libya…etc.

Don't mention to me poor Arab countries and claim that they are examples. Be logical and talk about the countries that have oil, resources and high population. If Egypt, Libya and Saudia Arabia were not ruled by corrupted leaders they would compete with West.

Also, I believe that you owe Muslims and Arabs a BIG apology for saying "do you consider the 20 years of French and Brittish mandate over territories of the Ottoman Empire after the WWI".

Only 20 years… You even refused to call colonization? - I don't respect nor appreciate that at all. This is so wrong of you and unforgivable. France killed over 1 Million Muslims human beings in Algeria and you tell me the s***t mandate over territories has caused nothing. You seriously need to apologize.
10:59 September 13, 2010 by Keith #5083
The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self.
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The Local Voices
Syria's White Helmets: The Nobel Peace Prize would have meant a lot, but pulling a child from rubble is the greatest reward
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