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'Integration a fiasco': Gothenburg official

TT/The Local/vt · 10 Dec 2010, 09:11

Published: 10 Dec 2010 09:11 GMT+01:00

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Prior to a 2008 visit to Gothenburg by officials from the US embassy in Stockholm, Bill Werngren, head of the city secretariat's information group and now Gothenburg's election director and the husband of municipal executive board chairwoman Anneli Hulten, made contact with the embassy, according to newspaper Göteborgs-Tidningen (GT) on Friday.

He sent the embassy a series of articles from newspaper Göteborgs-Posten (GP) published in 2007 about the integration challenges in and isolation experienced by the city's Somali community.

He wrote in a memo that the situation in Gothenburg reminded him of the phrase, "Houston, we have a problem."

He also described the articles as "interesting and quite horrible reading" and welcomed the visit as a vehicle for engaging community leaders in dialogue.

Moderate Party member Abdirisak Waberi, who was elected to the Riksdag in September 2010, was invited to meetings with US embassy staff in his role as the principal of the Römosse school, a publicly funded, privately managed free school in the Gothenburg neighbourhood of Gårdsten.

According to the cable, Waberi was pessimistic about the situation for fellow Somali-Swedes.

“Those who have immigrated to Sweden ‘will never feel like Swedes’ which created a sense of alienation,” reads the report of the meeting.

The US Embassy later sent a report to Washington about its conclusions regarding its visit to Gothenburg.

Story continues below…

"The discontent immigrant community leaders expressed at the discrimination faced by Muslim job seekers was matched by the frustration of city officials who, in the words of one official, feel that 30 years of programmes aimed at integrating Muslim immigrants 'have not worked,'" the leaked cable stated.

TT/The Local/vt (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

09:22 December 10, 2010 by Ravioli
He's right. Most agree with him but are afraid to say it. As a part-time resident of Gbg I can attest first-hand to the problems that city has now and that it will have more problems in the future with this so-called 'integration.' It shouldn't be the job of the government to integrate people anyways. People should WANT to integrate. And certain people don't.
09:34 December 10, 2010 by bolababu
The blame definitely goes both ways. Sweden talks big about integration but are hypocritical about it when it comes to job placement or even things like living arrangements. How can people integrate when you place the one on one end of the city and place the other on the other end? like in Gothenburg ..natural reaction to being treated as an outcast or outsider only leads to resentment and withdrawal hence the effects on society that we now see. Fact is Muslims are extremely hard to integrate because of the isolation of Islam by the international community. People usually don't raise eyebrows when you are hindu, budhist or christian.
09:49 December 10, 2010 by calebian22
Leaked cables are not necessary. This is common knowledge.
09:58 December 10, 2010 by truthworthy
Wait. So Swedish officials are complaining about their failures to US embassy instead of Swedish government? Now I understand why Julian Assange is afraid to be extradited to Sweden, this country seems to be run from a embassy in Stockholm. Big Shame!
10:05 December 10, 2010 by unkle strunkle
But the "fiasco" is Europe-wide. Weak, politically correct governments blame themselves while Muslims refuse to integrate and demand special treatment and special laws. Meanwhile crime rates get worse for no apparent reason if we are to believe what our news media tell us. It's nothing less than the decline of Western Civilization.
10:20 December 10, 2010 by truthworthy
This article is a gold mine for bigots. Integration is not conversion. Muslims can integrate and have integrated in many parts of europe but will not be listening to calls to adapt values against Islam such as those called by the German Chancellor.

When we particularly talk about Sweden, the failure is from the government and they have admitted that just last week that they considered immigrants as weak people who are liability, how can this mentality help integrate people? actually Sweden sent a delegation to US to study how the Somalis integrated there and to their surprise Somalis are regarded as an asset, they run businesses and finish universities in cities such as Minneapolis without their Hijab or Prayers being an obstacle.

Now Sweden and Europe need to learn from the US and treat immigrants as an asset and drop their pursue of converting people to old failed Christianity and instead make their word true about equality, freedom and justice.
10:24 December 10, 2010 by Vitas
Even swedish municipalities runs under US-control? Sweden - 51 state of USA.
10:35 December 10, 2010 by Göteborgare
I am an expat. If I fail to find job, I would encourage myself to become more competitive and advanced in professional arena. In the process of globalization, businesses can not afford to be either leftist or rightist, but they have to accept the best.

So those who feel discriminated needs to reassess themselves.It has nothing to do with integration.
10:44 December 10, 2010 by Yuretz
Strange things do happen: People are leaving their countries for a more prosperous life. But they are not going to change themselves. On my opinion if you leave your motherland and migrate to another country with another culture, first of all you MUST accept new conditions of life (laws, culture, language etc.) of the country where you come. And do not scream and demand changes, because you are not accustomed to it. If new conditions not acceptable to you - GO HOME! I think it is so easy. But Why in Europe with the emigrants bearing both with young children?!
10:44 December 10, 2010 by redcrown
you can integrate people who do not want to integrate,no matter what programs you have.this can been see in any western country with Muslim immigration,its not just a swedish problem,look aaround the world,the only ones that can not see it is the government
10:53 December 10, 2010 by Nemesis
I hope it did not take a wikileak for anyone to realise that.

Integration in Sweden is not a disaster. To make it a disaster, there would have to be improvements in integration in Sweden first. It literally is that bad.
11:22 December 10, 2010 by Jarvilainennen
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
12:11 December 10, 2010 by Dr. Dillner
@uncle strunkle

"...Muslims refuse to integrate and demand special treatment and special laws.."

I surely agree with this statement, Uncle Strunkle. Until those who immigrate decide for themselves to become apart (not be apart from) the society, this problem will persist.
12:42 December 10, 2010 by double concerto
"Integration" is a disaster. Yes, and that is because very few people feel the need to. The integration nazis and their fellow travelling multicultural bigots just don't get it, that 99.9% of people do not want their lives to be part of some crazy repulsive, and self destructive experiment.
12:51 December 10, 2010 by Rishonim
@ most of the above posters. Some of the nicest and most hard working people I have met in Sweden has been Muslims so you guys have it all wrong. I think they try and they make an extra effort to get accepted but most people reject them.
13:39 December 10, 2010 by Swedish123
Lets see the truth: Integration is totally a fiasco. Why? Because is not easy integrate people from different cultures and some of those cultures are suicide or terrorists like islam, immigration in long terms is going to cause many problems such as crime and majority in compharison with native population, integration cost a lot of money from tax payers, people should now that in Sweden the big multinational companies rules and they want to make profit, this government is incompetent, they said " Open and Generous"! But I think. It would be better if government should be generous with their own population instead with foreigners that dont have nothing to do with Sweden.
14:11 December 10, 2010 by Frobobbles
Yes, it is a fiasco. That is an objective statement. A fact.
14:34 December 10, 2010 by stateohio905
I am not the racist or against immigration, but please this picture with lady in black....is it Sweden or Somalia. I am sure you would not see a girl in sort pants on streets in some Muslim country. It does not work, stop immigration for people who do not want to change and accept local values. Nobody is happy neither we or them.
15:03 December 10, 2010 by Adriano
What are the essential elements of integration ? The root causes of migrating to a foreign country are civil war at home, unbearable insecurity both physical and financial in the country he or she is fleeing from - e.g. Somalia. Thus, when one chooses to emigrate to a country such as Sweden, the primary responsibility of adapting to his new home, with a different cultural, religious and social environment, is his and not that of the host country. The lat.ter can of course assist and facilitate the process of integration, by providing e.g. such things as free language and other training and some financial support. So as to make the guest a productive member of the society The immigrant cannot demand that the host country changes its ways to suit his way of life, but vice-versa, the immigrant has to do his utmost to adapt to new condition with gratitude. I am an immigrant who is happy to live in Swede.
15:09 December 10, 2010 by Syftfel
Does any Swede with a minimum of common sense not agree? Fiasco does not do the situation justice. Catastrophic chaos and a cauldronic poisonous mess is more like it. "Integration" has meant shoveling tax payer money at recent arrivals, without strings attached. Their bald sense of entitlement has only led to more demands and has led to ghettoization with the new arrivals demanding more and more without giving anything back. It must stop!!!! Sweden must raise the bar and aggressively turn the one way street into a two way avenue. Just look at the picture above! Do these people look like they were "integrated"?? The hot chick in front is quite a stunner. Isn't she? What rights do they have to demonstrate against anything when in all likelihood everything they own and wear came straight out of my paycheck? Who paid for their cellphones? Sweden must quickly and aggressively turn the tide around, crank up its deportation machinery, encourage those who can contribute, and get rid of those (with few exceptions) who cannot become Swedish. There is no time to lose. Culturally Sweden has become a toxic waste dump. PS The picture above symbolizes in a nutshell why the social dems suffered such permanent losses last September 19th. - Upp till kamp!!!
15:20 December 10, 2010 by Alf Garnett
New laws required:-

Failure to integrate to a required standard will result in deportation & withdrawal of Swedish citizenship & any rights to compensation.

Failure to find employment within 3mths of gaining residence permit will result deportation etc etc.

Failure to learn to converse in Swedish within 2 yrs off gaining residence permit will result in a bacon diet
16:19 December 10, 2010 by Marc the Texan
Ten years ago the comments would have been completely different. Live and learn.
16:29 December 10, 2010 by Querist
... same in nature as well...

When african bees invade the local honey bee population...

'it' too is a 'FIASCO'.....

Ask any beekeeper!

17:02 December 10, 2010 by Tanskalainen
No one treats Somalis worse than Somalis treat themselves. They are a divided people, divided among clans. There is a pecking order among the clans and after Siad Barre fell the clans simply killed each other. The Somalis orient themselves in regards to their clan membership wherever they go in the world. The marriages are arranged by by the girl's father who of course searches for a fellow clan member - this is the number one priority in his mind. Romantic love, choice, affection, foreplay etc. are all foreign concepts in Somali nuptials. Almost 100% of Somali females a circumcised. This involves snipping off the clitoris and trimming off the edges of the labia then sewing 90% of the two labia together with coarse thread allowing only a small hole for urine to squirt out. This barbarism is carried out without anesthesia or sanitation. Please tell me how space aliens like this can "integrate" into Swedish society.
17:19 December 10, 2010 by Syftfel
@Tanskalainen: Is this what they do after they arrive on Sweden's shores? And more importantly, does Sweden allow this? In the name of multicuuuuuulturalism and diveeeeersity? If they do these things in Sweden, I would have to assume that it is a crime? Yes? No? - Is there any liberal, open-borders, social democrat out there who can answer my questions???
17:27 December 10, 2010 by GLO
Sweden will become a Muslum Country in 20-30 years. You won'tbe able to stop this with your present laws, so get used to this problem. Sorry, Sweden was a wonderful homeland, I will always remember it the way it was just 5 years ago.
17:29 December 10, 2010 by Tanskalainen
@Don't be offended Syftfel but how in the hell do expect the police to enforce laws against these things, especially in places like Rosengard where even the fire trucks can't go? Get real please.
17:31 December 10, 2010 by Saul.Goode
No matter how hard you try, you're never going to make a caveman into a Swede unless the caveman is willing to no longer be a caveman, but a Swede.
17:34 December 10, 2010 by jbat
How to make this problem disappear?

Give the same allowances, benefits and whatever good things those refugees get here in Sweden to these "special moaning immigrants" and the problem with this muslim integration bla bla bla will disappear... trust me... LOL....

Alf Garnet...

"Failure to find employment within 3mths of gaining residence permit will result deportation etc etc."

I agree if the same rule apply to "special immigrant like you" so they will be no "moaning immigrants" here... but I afraid then you and many of your friends too will be deported :P
17:46 December 10, 2010 by Clarabow
Integration didn't work in the UK back in the early 1950s (Windrush) and although the influx was based round the idea of a Commonwealth passport (Sweden doesn't have an empire millstone) we are a small, over-populated country and immigration does exhaust the systems that have to support too many people; far from integration we created ghettos around minority groups, although large cities seem to accommodate the immigrant better than small towns. To understand this is to understand that immigrants will migrate towards their own, where they are more likely to get emotional and financial help or advice. Isn't this what The Local aids?

But, more people have emigrated from the UK than come in (I have read!). Many Swedes I understand emigrated to the States at the turn of the 19th century, as the Irish did during the 18th. To escape poverty, lack of work, etc. The world hasn't just become smaller in the 20th, but narrow as well. Immigration back then was not a dirty word - go west my son and make a new life and many did. Now those who themselves were once immigrants want to close ranks and exclude. Is the problem with the immigrants or with the society they are entering? I could live here 50 years but that would not make me Swedish, but because I am not coloured, or of a particular religious group, and happy to abide by the way of life I have found, I am probably more acceptable. Prejudice is about colour, and if I was black I am sure life would be much harder for me. Just as being white in Zimbabwe is now almost impossible; they learnt from us! But if you are going to have immigration (integration) then you need to have work available; housing; systems that can cope; a ten year plan and beyond to manage the influx and the relations (as in the case of the UK) follow, and lots of tolerance. If you don't have this combination then how can integration be successful?
18:31 December 10, 2010 by zoroastrina
Ravioli's comment is crap, bolababu's a real approximation to truth, Syftfel 's is the same bullshit as that which is propagated in the name of hatred by the German right. Clarabow is great! Saul Goode thinks non-Aryan immigrants are "cavemen". Your opinion has an abominable stench that rises up to heaven (a mythical location), Saul. Alf Garnett should revert to swinging in trees in correspondence with the retrograde evolution of his moral development.

According to the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung's comprehensive, book-length report,

"Die Mitte in der Krise", right-wing extremist ideas and ideology have long found the centre of German society to be a congenial environment, and Germany is by no means alone in this respect! Rise up, enlightened Swedes! "Upp till kamp!!!"
19:23 December 10, 2010 by Njal
We've known that integration of these people, was a failure from day 1, so this is not really news.

Why do politicians in the West think that replacing our aging populations with with foreigners from the 3rd world, is more sensible than actually making the situation better for the natural citizens to have their own children, and therefore a more cohesive society?

What we need to know now is what's being done about it. Have we even curbed immigration from these countries?
19:34 December 10, 2010 by Iftikhar_Ahmad
Bilingual Muslims children have a right, as much as any other faith group, to be taught their culture, languages and faith alongside a mainstream curriculum. More faith schools will be opened under sweeping reforms of the education system in England. There is a dire need for the growth of state funded Muslim schools to meet the growing needs and demands of the Muslim parents and children. Now the time has come that parents and community should take over the running of their local schools. Parent-run schools will give the diversity, the choice and the competition that the wealthy have in the private sector. Parents can perform a better job than the Local Authority because parents have a genuine vested interest. The Local Authority simply cannot be trusted.

The British Government is planning to make it easier to schools to "opt out" from the Local Authorities. Muslim children in state schools feel isolated and confused about who they are. This can cause dissatisfaction and lead them into criminality, and the lack of a true understanding of Islam can ultimately make them more susceptible to the teachings of fundamentalists like Christians during the middle ages and Jews in recent times in Palestine. Fundamentalism is nothing to do with Islam and Muslim; you are either a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islam's teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society. Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and demands.

Iftikhar Ahmad

20:04 December 10, 2010 by Hubris
When I discuss this with Muslim friends (admittedly in Canada, not in Sweden) I am told that Muslims are encouraged to spend as little time as possible among non-Muslims so as to minimize the impact of secularization or the risk of non-Islamic influences placing them in situations contrary to their beliefs.

Exactly how are people defining 'integration'? Are having a job and speaking the language at an acceptable level a sign of integration, or is there an expectation of incorporating in social or other aspects of society?

Sweden will never succeed in taking Somali Islamic people and making them indistinguishable from dark-skinned Swedes. Many have no interest in living apart from, socializing or communicating with anyone outside the Arabic-speaking Muslim community.
20:53 December 10, 2010 by Georguis
Guys pls do not deceive yourselves, the question is:


Theologically - NO, Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.

Religiously - NO, Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam.

Scripturally - NO, Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - NO, Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - NO, Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews .

Politically - NO, Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - NO, Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him.

Intellectually - NO, Because he cannot accept the western Constitutions since they are based on biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - NO, Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of expression. (the crises of mohamed's drawings in Danmark is a strong evedince on that). Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Muslim believes also that any human law is devilish and the only law that the whole world should be submitted to is the islamic law "sharia law" practiced in Saudia Arabia and previously by Taliban in Afghanistan. Sharia law entails cutting off killer's head, cutting off theif's hand, stonning the adulterer and hanging homosexuals!

Spiritually - NO, Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly Father, nor is he ever called love.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and fully integrated cetizens. Call it whatever you wish but it's still the truth.. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.
21:26 December 10, 2010 by Syftfel
Ifthikar Ahmad and his asinine gibberish just proved my point! I have nothing to add to such verbal foul stench. Or perhaps he is deliberately trying to stir up waves with his clownish verbosity and is in fact joking? For he can not possibly be serious?
22:28 December 10, 2010 by Yuretz
Dear Swedes,

Are you still tolerance? Then we are coming to you!

Yours sincerely,


22:30 December 10, 2010 by Rishonim
The linch mob on The Local is in full force and straight out of Der Stürmer. I am sure some of these same arguments were used against my ancestors while they hurdled them to the concentration camps. You guys are scary
22:54 December 10, 2010 by Njal

No mate, they're not scarey, they're pissed-off with what's happening, and how true Swedes have been targeted in their own lands. What did you really expect to happen?
23:36 December 10, 2010 by Iraniboy
The racists methods are so tacky! They make something called 'Muslim' or 'Immigrant'and then they hate it !!!

In order to make something called "Muslim" they can of course find some rare examples among 1'000'000'000 of Muslims to prove that their example is relevant and can be generalized then they HATE these Muslims they have made themselves!

Just take a look at some of previous comments to notice this tacky method. Goerguis is one!
23:56 December 10, 2010 by Njal

"They make something called 'Muslim' or 'Immigrant'and then they hate it !!!"

No, not really, they just don't want large amounts of rude, arrogant and unhelpful people around. Your second paragraph is laughable, we are still waiting for your fellow 'moderate' co-religionists, on a large basis, to condemn the actions of your dangerous muslim brethren. I suggest that those Swedes against mad immigration policies, are justified in their opinions.

As for Goerguis, I find it very difficult to disagree with what he's written in regards to islam/muslims. Iraniboy, why don't you go back to Iran, and direct some of your vitriol towards those who deserve it- (i.e.your own people not the Swedes), and see how far you get.

As for Iftikhar Ahmad, he`s written that exact pap before, so if you felt ill reading it, that is in fact a healthy sign that you disagree with everything he`s written.
01:11 December 11, 2010 by Swedesmith
Perhaps someone of the Muslim faith can debate Georguis's comments point for point. Just simply calling him a racist doesn't cut the mustard.

I am of the opinion that Islam is a very intolerant religion and will have trouble integrating into Western society.

But I am willing to listen to intelligent arguments to convince me otherwise.
01:30 December 11, 2010 by Truth-Teller
30 years of trying did not work.

Time to go find some immigrants that want to be Swedish.
01:59 December 11, 2010 by Swedish123
This is the real problem: /watch?v=m7ErfuGa2SQ

02:12 December 11, 2010 by Tanskalainen
As they say in Denmark:

"Stop det muslimske kagemonster!"

@Rishonim- shanda fur di shtetl
02:13 December 11, 2010 by ISayWhatPeopleThink

Brown, Black, White, Green, Muslim, Christian, or Spaghetti-monster worshiping , if people can't meet basic societal needs like finding a job or a place to live of course they aren't going to assimilate into society or be able to support themselves.

Islam this, Islam that. Why does integration succeed in places like the USA but not in Sweden? Because there's jobs and places to live. When there is so much competition over jobs for survival of course there's going to be people pushed out, and immigrants (no matter what religious background or where they come from) will come in dead last on society's ladder.

If there were plenty of employment opportunities and decent housing, a LOT of Sweden's problems will disappear, even many of the non-integration issues. But as we have it now, even menial jobs require years of "work experience" and special "dishwashing/toilet scrubbing school" to even get an interview for the worst-paying jobs in the country.

Hostility, xenophobia, racism, intolerance, and bigotry from both sides are mostly the underlying symptom of the biggest issue from having to compete with each other in a harsh job/housing climate.
02:29 December 11, 2010 by jbat

It is not so hard to see the truth about Islam if you really open your mind and remove your racist thinking in your head... because with those racist mind in your head, you will never find the truth...

There are so many comments here that tried to answer your question, but non of them fit in your racist head... then you are saying that you are willing to listen to intelligent arguments to convince you otherwise?

Your claim that "Islam is a very intolerant religion" also not being supported by any intelligent facts either... In fact it is very stupid thinking... there are so many muslims around the world, and then you take those suffering non educated muslim refugees to represent entire muslims... is that what you called intelligent?

I know there are so many "self thinking special immigrants" here coming from US (the world super power govt???) and other western countries are suffering from economics trouble at this moment, fleeing from your own country and try to seek heaven here but cannot get it while at the same time those refugees get benefits from the govt here and I am so sorry for it...

good nite...
03:23 December 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
>>Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.

ok, explain this. I know a muslim guy studying masters in KTH and have no prejudice to any religious beliefs or for the ones who have no belief. He has some friends in Stockholm and likes to have a beer at the weekends.

You seem high trolling towards the muslim ones. But I only can recommend do not hate them not all of them have such intentions you described in your post.
04:05 December 11, 2010 by Investor612
truthworthy cites Minneapolis as an example of successful Somali integration. That's nuts. Lots of terrorists have been discovered and apprehended among the Minneapolis Somali community. As for economic success, they are hardly the poster children for movin on up.
04:50 December 11, 2010 by Swedesmith
Please, enlighten me Jbat. I've never been one to be afraid to admit that I am wrong. So give me some solid examples of how Islam tolerates other religions. Explain to me the typical Muslim view of democracy, of Western culture. Convince me that radical Muslim extremism is just an aberration and I have nothing to fear.

Truthfully, if I saw a man in Muslim garb, with his car stuck in a snowbank, I would help push him out. No questions asked. If I went by a mosque and it was on fire and I heard screams inside, I would rush in and try to help get people out. I am more than willing to share the world with those of different faiths. Are you?
10:33 December 11, 2010 by Rebel
So when are ethnic Swedes finally going to accept reality and integrate into the immigrant cultureal norms?
10:55 December 11, 2010 by Ravioli
I think that everybody needs to take a LONG, HARD LOOK at what Iftikhar Ahmad has to say in post # 33. Especially you, Jbat. It's always great when a true Muslim posts here and makes all of the pro-Islamic immigration nutjobs look like idiots. Rick Meth, where are you now? lol
11:49 December 11, 2010 by calebian22
Great comment Swedesmith
12:06 December 11, 2010 by Toffee_apple
I received this in an email recently and thought it to be appropriate with the topic being discussed:

Please read from beginning to end.

New Immigration Laws:

1 There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.

2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.

3. All government business will be conducted in the nation's language.

4. Non-citizens will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.

5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office

6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programmes. Any burden will be deported.

7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

8. If foreigners come here and buy land... Options will be restricted. Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

9.. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our prime minister or his policies. These will lead to imprisonment and deportation.

10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted &, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All assets will be taken from you.

Too strict?......

The above laws are the current immigration laws of many Muslim countries!

These sound fine to me, NOW, how can we get these laws to be our laws??


1. Get a place to lay your head!

2. Get a job!

3. Live By OUR Rules!

4. Pay YOUR Taxes!

5. Learn the LANGUAGE like immigrants have in the past!!!


6. Please don't demand that we hand over our lifetime

savings of welfare benefits to you.
13:04 December 11, 2010 by skatty
I think there are some points, which worth to pay attention when comparing US with Sweden in the case of integration and isolation of a group of immigrants in this country.

1. There are differences between integration, assimilation, multiculturalism, and US policy is mostly assimilation not integration.

2. The actual immigrants in Sweden in the last 30 years have been refugees and not really immigrants, when it is mentioned "Those who have immigrated to Sweden, will never feel like Swedes …"

3. There is no need for everybody, who moves to Sweden feel like Swedes; however, the expectation is that everybody feels like Swedes, which is a ridicules expectation.

4. To feel alienation by immigrants is normal and should be accepted. I mean look at Sweden itself, and its position in the Europe. It's a country with long dark winters, on the edge of Europe, with a language that almost nobody speaks anywhere else and a culture that is not much popular in Europe. Historically, it didn't have an important role in the world decisions, and had not that kind of colonial adventures like many other countries in the Europe, it has not even participated in the two world war. By the colonial adventures and imperialistic position, the cultures and industries of the main European countries have influenced different part of world, and Sweden didn't have that kind of possibilities. Certainly, it would be easier to understand American culture with an international film and music industry with an international language, where is on the edge of science and development better than a country like Sweden with a very singular language and customs with low population, somewhere in the north, with a very homogeneous culture, people, color, and…

I don't get why there is an expectation that immigrant suppose to feel like a Swede. Many immigrant who live in Sweden right now, didn't even know the position of Sweden on the map for 30 years ago!
14:08 December 11, 2010 by alingsaskev
Okay, this is an interesting topic!

I am an immigrant to Sweden and have lived here for nearly 5 years now. I am British, white and a Christian. I have in the past lived in Spain for roughly 3 years and South Africa for two years. I found it very easy to integrate into Spanish culture. I learned the language, made friends easily and enjoyed the experience. Similarly in South Africa I found the country welcoming and hospitable, had little trouble integrating into the society and made friends of all colours and cultures (even the Afrikaners who are are traditionally staunch enemies of anything English).

Sweden however has proved a challenge. I have learnt Swedish to a usable level, I have run a business here, I have tried hard to make friends but in 5 years I have not met any of my neighbours. I have not been invited to anyone's house. I have acquaintances but there is no-one here I could call a friend - and I am not alone in this.

Swedes and an unwelcoming bunch. They are insular, entrenched and unfriendly. They have little sense of humour and are literal in their thinking. There is a sense of Swedishness that everyone must have or aspire to. There can be no exceptions and no excuses.

Sweden is also a bureaucratic nightmare which works well if you are Swedish and were born in Sweden, have never left Sweden and have no intention of doing so, if on the other hand you are from abroad, or indeed are Swedish and have moved and wish to come back - then you are in for a shock. I met a Swedish lady last week who was born in Sweden and Moved to America with her parents 20 years ago - she had moved back to Sweden and it had taken her 2 years to get a personal Number - even though she was a Swedish National.

Bill Werngren is absolutely right. Sweden is not ready to accept immigrants, Sweden doesn't want immigrants - Sweden wants Swedes, and Swedishness, and a quiet life.

Sweden as a country is like its people. It stays indoors behind it's curtains in the warm, peering through the glass wondering when next it has to venture out into all of that nastiness.
15:01 December 11, 2010 by stateohio905
alingsaskev you made an excellent analytic, and you are absolutely right. May be that was the reason why more Swedes live in Minnesota then in Sweden.

and Chicago was the biggest Swedish city at the beginner of the last century. So let Sweden to Swedes or except Swedish values such as.
15:56 December 11, 2010 by Iraniboy

Why don't go back to Iran?!

I may, as I'm not an permanent immigrant here but I prefer to stay here in Sweden because here in Sweden there are LESS PEOPLE LIKE you, Goergis and other racists in the thread who make some examples and HATE an entire group of innocent people based on those examples but in Iran there are many like you! I just want to be way from such bigoted ideologies ;)


Are you?

Yes I have always been so and I will be regardless of what I have done is appreciated or not.
19:33 December 11, 2010 by Toonie
@ truthworthy "Now Sweden and Europe need to learn from the US and treat immigrants as an asset ."

It is interesting that some countries are better at 'integrating' immigrants than others. The US is almost by definition a large nation of immigrants - which also took impoverished Swedes in the 19th and 20th centuries and aspiring Swedes in the 21st.

Sweden on the other hand has battled with contradictions. I suspect it's well described by Strindberg in 'Hemsöborna', with outward and inward looking tendencies struggling for ascendancy, even within individuals. There was also a strong tendency for Swedes to place a high value on 'security' in recent times. This had its merits, but became rather sclerotic. Swedes travel a lot, but I've rarely come across a Swede who 'travels well'. Most want to get back home to the security and comfort of the familiar.

Well that familiar is now being transformed by acquaintance with the world as most nations know it. For a good look on Swedish exceptionalism see Paul Britten Austin's book 'On Being Swedish' - He arrived as war finished and was stunned by a country that looked utterly unlike any other war-torn European country. Sorry to harp on this, but it made a huge difference. Most Swedes don't get WW2, except in theory. They don't understand how it has formed many attitudes - one of them being an acceptance of the other, because it was a failure to do so that led to the carnage and destruction.

Will Swedish cities ever look like US or bigger British cities, where hardly anyone notices the colour of a person's skin? By that I mean where a different accent won't keep a person out of a job. The accent of white kids in the East End isn't Cockney or Estuary any more - it's Jafaikan (fake Jamaican). Anyone come into the UK recently and had their passport checked by a Muslim woman in a hijab? Does that happen in Sweden? Or do most person assume that these 'different' people just can't cut it under the Swedish Model? I saw how foreigners were prevented by bureaucratic rules from pursuing the things they could do with energy - running small businesses and so on. I know some Swedes think they go to Sweden for the benefits. Maybe. But I'd guess many more avoid Sweden because they can't get on in life. They're too dynamic.

I hope Sweden can sort out these questions. It could be a fantastic country if it did. At the moment - must try harder. And it's the politicians who have to show what they're made of when the chips are down. That's what you pay them for.
21:19 December 11, 2010 by gsurya
Having lived n worked around Scandinavia for a decade, my assessment is that Swedes, Danes, Finns & Norwegians really dont yet know what they want of immigrants.

Its all very well to rant at Muslims here, but even as a Hindu migrant, who generally believes in live-n-let-live, I have not felt as welcome as I have in the US or UK or even Australia and to a lesser extent.

The real & only problem here is the welfare state, that does not put enough pressure on people to make a living - immigrants are not used to this model and it ends up screwing up their thinking & they try to exploit the system.

I would agree with a model that allows for immigrants to pay lower taxes & lower benefits under the assumption that they would want to return home after a 5 or 10 year period, then you will attract the right kind of *working immigrant*
23:07 December 11, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
In this country, is attempted suicide a criminal offence?

Europe has given up on multiculturalism - they say that it's not working fast enough and so, citizens in this realm, babies and other new arrivals too, all you have to do is to try your level best to co-operate with the New Sweden culture policy. It's about to change your fate - for the better: all the faster for you to face reality : In-tegrate.

So, let it be preached from the nimbar and the pulpit and by the apostles of the immigration minister that you are called upon to follow this alternative:

The policy's basic aim is as follows: to make a good Swede out of you.

There are so many myths about Somlis, for example that Arabic is their mother tongue and national language. Just right now in the aftermath of the El Baraka Bank debacle, Nyamko Sabuni & the FGM business, Lars Vilks and the head-butt that he so deservedly got, and now this little bit of excitement about two young Somalis allegedly about to cause havoc and mass terrorist destruction in their homeland, Somalia.

Somalis are in focus.

But it's not even basically just Somalis; all “foreigners” are in the same boat, Jack.

Many Somalis live in Canada and are also working in the United Kingdom and Australia. During the time of Mohammed Siad Barre, many Somalis studied medical science and engineering in the then Soviet Union.

Assange won't be asking for asylum here:

23:34 December 11, 2010 by immigrant-girl
lol and this is anything new?
00:03 December 12, 2010 by Icarusty
I really don't understand why Sweden is making an arse out of this. Integration of people from different cultures/races does not need any money at all. Neither does it require energy or effort - just the ability not to discriminate, and treat minorities like you would treat your own.

I take me and my family as an example - came from halfway across the world, now decades settled in a western nation. For my parents there was the language barrier, but essentials of the language were learnt and they quickly absorbed themselves with the locals. It took them some effort (learning customs and the language), and it took the local community NOTHING but patience (whilst they ironed out any misunderstandings) and looking at them as normal people, not outsiders.

For me it was even easier - no language, culture barriers and growing up with a close circle of friends who were 'natives' (actually one had American parents and the other came from Eastern Europe). All it took was them treating me as their own. It's not hard. Unless you're a nazi.
00:28 December 12, 2010 by travels
So who is having problems integarting and in general?, Asians?, Latins?, other Europeans?, Australians?, or is it mostly Muslims?
01:53 December 12, 2010 by jaysea32
Explosions kill 1, injure 2 in central Stockholm

Published - Dec 11 2010 06:19PM EST

By MALIN RISING - Associated Press

Here's an example of Sweden's benevolent immigration policy. The more immigrants allowed into the country, the more the destruction of the Swedish way of life is going to occur. It's inevitable. So be careful with your kindness lest that social cancer metasticizes beyond treatability.
02:25 December 12, 2010 by GefleFrequentFlyer
Again, I'm amazed at the anti-government, anti-US, etc anarchists. You read Wikileaks findings like it's some sort of grand revelation.

To all of us SANE people, this is hardly news and was a timebomb waiting to happen. Because we KNOW integration is a fiasco, because the leftists think that these "immigrants" will in fact INTEGRATE and ASSIMILATE into Swedish Society! WAKEUP CALL! These people have NO INTENTIONS to integrate or assimilate!

I know Sweden is very anti-semitic, but there is one truth they can now relate to: The IDF has always said "The biggest threat to our way of life is the (sic. Anti-west, islamist) womb".

On the day after a full-blown Hezbollah/AQ style double suicide bombing in the heart of stockholm, anyone care to disagree?

As you ponder, the real swedes, sitting quietly in their cold stuga out in the remote parts of the country are silently asking themselves "What has our country come to?"

And Social Democrats keep wondering where their votes go......
08:32 December 12, 2010 by qed16
These stone age animals don't integrate into their own societies. There's nothing but strife and conflict in the Muslim world. If they are not trying to kill us, they are trying to kill each other...because they are a depraved failed culture.

Kick them all out, send them back to the desert until the oil runs out and the problem will take care of itself.

Wake up and stop trying to appease the enemy.
09:32 December 12, 2010 by Toffee_apple
@GefleFrequentFlyer: Just how is Sweden "very anti-semitic"?

It was only a matter of time before an attack on Sweden by the muslims would occur. Sweden's presence in Afghanistan and some cartoon are nothing but excuses. It will probably only be a matter of time before an attack killing as many as other attacks, such as London or Madrid, occurs here. This recent attack is surely just a preview of what's to come.

I so agree with qed16 that these people are nothing but stone age animals. If western countries had done their research on these people they would see that they're not worth bringing to to the west just to increase populations.

If Islam is the religion to follow then why are there so many wars amongst these people? Why do they suffer so much? Is there actually anything good about being a muslim? I'm yet to see it.
13:20 December 12, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg


Did Afghanistan declare war on the US and the West? NO.

Was it Afghanistan that did 911? NO

Was there a single Afghan who was in any of the 911 crews? NO

Am I in sympathy with the suffering people of Afghanistan? YES!

The Mighty NATO supported by countries like Sweden have been fighting Afghan Nationals for some NINE YEARS now, with superior weaponry, hundreds of billions of dollars, field hospitals, special bombs, planes, helicopters, drones, thermal military suits to keep themselves warm in the Afghan winters, special glasses to see in the dark, bullet proof vests and headgear against people who wear tennis shoes and turbans.

If the authenticity of the reports are anything to go by, one gets the impression that the reason for the bomb attacks in Stockholm is that they (the attackers) would like the Swedish Military to get the hell out of Afghanistan. Their (the terrorists) action is therefore both logical and understandable, although it's not pleasant, putting out fire, with fire.

The Qur'an is unequivocal about this:


Sweden has sent troops to Afghanistan to kill those who resist the occupation of their country by the kuffar – so the war has extended to enemy territory and will perhaps continue.

What would Joe Swede do if Afghan troops were occupying Sweden? Would he take the fight to the enemy?

What would Joe Swede have done if the Nazis had occupied Sweden?

Am I comparing the Swedish presence in Afghanistan to a Nazi occupation of Sweden? NO but there are certain similarities and the same kind of certified heartlessness and utter disregard for the precious Muslim lives that are being daily decimated.

It's not merely a question of empathy or sympathy, wake up means that we've got to understand the logic to other people's national feelings, other people who are also made of flesh and blood. When 100 drones hit and devastate innocent families in Pakistan this year, I don't see any Swedes shedding tears here in this forum.

You ask, “If Islam is the religion to follow then why there are so many wars amongst these people?”

Answer: Because the West is busy killing Muslims in order to take over their natural resources and to control them. That's why. Ever heard the word colonialism?

There's more, much more that I would like to say, so don't be shy and please let's carry on this discussion. Bring some helpers if you need help. I'm ready for any of you.

The wisest thing is to sue for peace, failing which the punishment is unimaginable.
13:46 December 12, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
N.B. :

"Speaking on Sunday morning, Thornberg said it was still too early to confirm a connection between the blasts and the email, but that Säpo was investigating the matter."
14:31 December 12, 2010 by Swedesmith

I agree that with you that what is going on in Afghanistan is atrocious, but do you think that suicide attacks bring any credibility to their cause?
15:05 December 12, 2010 by Rick Methven
Of course these stupid attacks will never help their cause.

At the same time, deporting every Muslim from western countries, as proposed by some, like the SD here, would not solve the problem either.

IMHO the best tactic to follow would be to marginalise the radical Imman's and try to understand what is turning young Muslims into suicide bombers.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, None of the military commanders currently waging the war there, believe that it can be won so a pull out would save lives there and here.
15:25 December 12, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg

My countryman,

I don't expect the anti-anti-Semites to wanna altercate with me.

In any case I'll be taking this matter up and the issues of Somalia as a specially targetted group in Sweden: I'll be taking these matters up in my blog WE SWEDEN.

I've just read the latest entries in Lars Vilks' blog. He's in love with himself and a little out of touch with reality. His days are numbered – so are mine.

First of all it's not yet established who blew himself up or why. Anybody could have done it. Anybody could be behind it to achieve that which you say: that such a suicide attack should not “bring any credibility to their cause.”

Well, if it had been a real bomb and it had left a huge crater where the centre of the NK shopping centre used to be, with many dead and buried inside it - perhaps it could have brought some credibility to their cause: get out of Afghanistan.

Of course with a very determined Swedish leadership, the number of terrible terrorist attacks on Swedish territory would not deter the Swedish army from staying the course in Afghanistan – and I just read the latest – Gates says that they will be needing “ more time” - as if latest 2014 won't be long enough .Of course by then if the Mullahs in Iran have not been overthrown by the people – the way the Shah was in 1979 ( and take note that none of his best friends in the West was willing to take him in – they feared - and that's why he's buried in the Muhammad Ali Mosque in Cairo) - if the Mullahs still remain Supreme and determined ( Iran is presently an island, ABSOLUTELY surrounded by NATO military installations) and should the US or the US + Israel deem it wise to attack them and invade to occupy then certainly all hell will break loose. Who knows, Sweden might again make the decision “ att vara med” as Uncle Sam's medium sized military lieutenant , but even Netanyahu is reported in the Guardian as saying “The most significant revelation was that Israel believes that beyond a certain point attacking Iran would cause too much "collateral damage.”

With a little bit of imagination - or with some planning there are many different possibilities for even mega terrorist attacks be it 911 or even (God forbid) against any nuclear reactors here or in the US ( remember, “money doesn't talk , it swears” )

X gives Y a parcel to take to Åhlens and the parcel explodes - as it is timed to do - fortunately, before Y gets into the heart of the Christmas Bazaar. Y of course doesn't know what he's doing. A distinct possibility.

Or someone gives the murderer of Anna Lindh a post-hypnotic suggestion – and then lets him loose, just outside the NK shopping mall – and the beast possessed with the suggested mission like a bloodhound hot on the trail, goes after his victim.

North Stockholm is more heavily defended than South Stockholm.

There are many possibilities.

Taking the logical route, our Carl Bildt is liable to say that Sweden is probably now “a less safe place” because his troops are doing their duty in Afghanistan. “Stayed in Mississippi a day too long” instead of protecting people here from possible attack from outside.

15:30 December 12, 2010 by unseen

there is nothing on planet earth can legitimate attacks against civilians. whatever the reason is. that is that. nothing else to say.

i agree that the war against Afgh was a disaster, yet a change was appreciated there.

i always try to look at things reasonably since my whole career life was serving military and intelligence in the most complicated place in the world 'middle east'.

as an intelligence analyst i have learned that to get a full impact of an event, timing is the most important thing. saying that, i was wondering about the timing of this attack!

what can be a accomplished?

usually, terrorism attacks have different reasons behind them.

if we look at other concurrent events took place accordingly to this attack, give us more options to help investigating who was behind it!

some demonstrations and protests took place in many cities in the world regarding wikileaks???? Swedish government must consider this option as well.

my assumption is who else would benefit this attack?
16:19 December 12, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg

No one benefits from these kinds of attacks. Some people lose their lives.

These kind of unnecessary provocations and idiotic self-glorification are not merely matters for competent military intelligence analysis:


From a more broadly based point of view it would be more of sociology – sociological analysis of our ever evolving complex society that's called for.

What does Åke Sander say?

Our most civilized, tolerant and caring, agnostic prime Minister says “unacceptable”. This is not a war zone : - that "It's unacceptable because Sweden is an OPEN SOCIETY, and an open society which has shown it is willing that people with different beliefs and backgrounds and gods can live side by side with each other in an open society and democracy that functions well,"

Our aim in Sweden is att förebygga våldsbrott, to take preventive measures against violent crimes being committed.

Meanwhile the sad, inescapable facts are as follows: NATO & CO have KILLED hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslim Civilians in cold blood and passed it off as collateral damage. Have a heart!

What is good for the goose is not good for the gander?

You think that in the eyes of God, your life is better than that of an Afghan?







Iran is entirely a different matter – there are millions of Iranians already in the US and more than 100, 000 here who would not sympathise with Iranians being killed by Americans – because Iran wants to obtain what others have: a nuclear bomb.
16:59 December 12, 2010 by skatty
Because there are some attentions about Iran in here, I suggest to watch this on google videos. Its name is "Iran is not the problem", the link is:

18:15 December 12, 2010 by qed16
It's sad to watch you pansies wallow in your white guilt and make excuses for radical Muslim dogs... You are pathetic.

There is NO excuse to try and blow up innocent women in children doing their Christmas shopping. NONE. Especially in Sweden of all places.

This jackass lived in Sweden and had the potential for a good life many in his filthy native Iraq could only dream of. Instead he chose to try to kill those who made that potential life possible... A fitting analogy for the Muslim cultural invasion.

When the next attack works and dozens die, let's see how well your appeasement arguments go over you sad emasculated traitors.
19:21 December 12, 2010 by unseen

it has nothing to do with Iraq. as its seems to be something regarding swedish troops in Afgh! and don't call it filthy please, you don't even have borders with Iraq. why are so angry about it? there are no swedish troops in Iraq. its been always that sweden was against the war in Iraq.
19:25 December 12, 2010 by GefleFrequentFlyer

Have you NOT been studying Sweden for say, um, the past 80 years? You could even casually read these pages and draw the same conclusion.
19:58 December 12, 2010 by qed16

The bomber was an Iraqi...read... http://www.thelocal.se/30788/20101212/

Why am I angry? Because I eat lunch right where this piece of garbage tried to kill a bunch of innocent Christmas shoppers. Do I really need to explain why killing innocent civilians is a problem?

And I'm angry because you idiots are trying to defend the tolerance of an uncivilized, barbaric cult has produced nothing but backwards, violent conflict in their own part of the world. They need to stay the hell out of ours. Islam and civilization are not compatible. Islam needs to go... God willing.
21:11 December 12, 2010 by Ravioli
21:46 December 12, 2010 by travels
What a surprise, another suicidal muslim fanatic killing/blowing himself and trying to kill as many as possible, good that it didn't really work, except for one less.

Notice how of all the peoples of the world these are the only ones that are in continuous strife amongst themselves and with everybody else. But they always have plenty of excuses for their fanatic, unsocial and often murderous behavior and of course allah and muhammed are above it all.

Probably what this latest idiot screamed in arabic before he blew up was " Allahu Akbar", Arabic for "Allah is greater" meaning..."Allah is greater...than whatever god you happen to believe in." Islam, making a difference in the world one body at a time and a big stack of dead bodies.
22:29 December 12, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg

“Travels”, “Ravioli”, “Qed16” et al, you guys are pathetic, wallowing in your infantile logic and self-pity, your dead hearts, questionable.

Some unknown one blows himself up in Stockholm and this is supposed to reflect badly on all Muslims.

You need to have your heads examined.

You are cordially invited to transfer your arguments and your logic to Middle East issues and their scriptures - if you dare. But you won't dare because you will be so sorely trumped in this free speech forum. By Moi-Même.

As the bard said, “when something isn't right it's wrong”

Someone blows himself up in Kabul. No comments. No tears.

The US kills.

As Robert Mugabe delivered from the UN podium on the occasion of the 62nd Session of the United Nations General Assembly, New York, 26 September, 2007:



“Let Mr. Bush read history correctly. Let him realise that both personally and in his representative capacity as the current President of the United States, he stands for this "civilisation" which occupied, which colonised, which incarcerated, which killed. He has much to atone for and very little to lecture us on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. His hands drip with innocent blood of many nationalities.

He still kills.

He kills in Iraq. He kills in Afghanistan. And this is supposed to be our master on human rights?

He imprisons.

He imprisons and tortures at Guantanamo. He imprisoned and tortured at Abu Ghraib. He has secret torture chambers in Europe. Yes, he imprisons even here in the United States, with his jails carrying more blacks than his universities can ever enroll. He even suspends the provisions of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. Take Guantanamo for example; at that concentration camp international law does not apply. The national laws of the people there do not apply. Laws of the United States of America do not apply. Only Bush's law applies. Can the international community accept being lectured by this man on the provisions of the universal declaration of human rights? Definitely not!

Mr President, We are alarmed that under his leadership, basic rights of his own people and those of the rest of the world have summarily been rolled back. America is primarily responsible for rewriting core tenets of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We seem all guilty for 9/11. Mr. Bush thinks he stands above all structures of governance, whether national or international.”
22:56 December 12, 2010 by qed16

Yes, you are right... Killing Christmas shoppers in Sweden will really stick it to Mr. Bush and the US military.

You sir are an idiot and a traitor and your kind will be dealt with when things get bad enough and the one Muslim terrorist in a thousand who's not a complete moron actually succeeds in doing the worst.

I'd like to see you tell the families of those dead that their deaths were justified you treasonous worm.

Go and move to some smelly jihadi hellhole where you belong and join them. We don't need you here.
23:30 December 12, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
qed16 - the moron

Apart from being a moron, who are yu and what else do yu know about anything?

Who is justifying anything?

And who the -uck do you think you are yu little schmuck stink hole?

This world is more sophisticated than an idiot like you will ever think possible.

i'd like to see you tell the families of those dead in Korea, Vitenam, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan that their deaths were justified you bleeding & unfeeling little son of a worm.

23:55 December 12, 2010 by Truth_Teller
Here is an economic view of immigration and integration. Politicians in Sweden often cite the "need" for immigration economically. When immigrants cost more than they benefit, then they do not benefit society economically. This was taken from an economic website, I did not write it.

Neither Germany's Social Market Economy nor that of any of the European Social Democracies' in the North needs 'immigrants' who for religious reasons reject the developed secular societies and social cultures they're migrating into. They do not need 'immigrants' who're trying to preserve a culture and lifestyle that is still on the lower levels of Maslow's socio-psychological pyramid of needs; and who pass their religiously motivated social segregation on to their children and grandchildren down the line . . . forming destructive parallel societies that are slowly destroying the very fabric all successful European solidarity-societies are made of.

If governments and responsible politicians in these countries fail to address the public mood, they're most likely in for a big surprise at the next general election . . . as on June 9th this year the Dutch parliamentary election proved already - as did the Swedish election September Sept. 19, 2010.

Parties addressing this growing public mood are already a part of coalition governments in Italy and Switzerland for years, and they hold seats in the parliaments of Denmark, Austria, Norway and Finland. Jean-Marie Le Pens' National Front captured 9 percent of the vote in last spring's French regional elections with a targeted anti-Islamic campaign.

In March, Italy's Northern League gained control of the regions of Venice and Piedmont. Quite attention graving during the election campaign, party supporters handed out soap samples, to be used, as they said, "after having touched an unwelcomed immigrant".

Most voters in these countries are not against immigrants per se; 'beneficial newcomers', no matter what ethnic background, are usually welcomed. The new political 'movement' in Europe is thus 'cultural' - not racist.

What voters in many European countries with deep rooted democratic traditions increasingly realize is that culture and lifestyle of especially piously intolerant followers of Islam are not compatible with the requirements of the modern knowledge based solidarity societies of Europe's North and West. It was rather naivety which made them believe otherwise ... "for too long" as many now say.

Social Market Economy and Social Democracy are mutual solidarity concepts (whereby the emphasis is on "mutual"). They are completely different from the old European (and "new" libertarian) welfare-based "charity model", which can also be found in the Islamic Ummah and in classic Islamic welfare activities (to the extent of those of the Muslim Brotherhood).
00:21 December 13, 2010 by travels
Sweden, you are doing to yourself, letting tons of these people in, it's so naive. They have a much higher reproduction rate than Swedes, mostly on welfare. See what the next decades bring. It's almost too late, sadly. No wonder the Svg Democrats are successful, people are sick of the politics that are harming Sweden. Sweden has taken many other people, Asians, Latins, Europeans, with no problem, but the Muslims will unfortunately forever change Sweden unless something is done soon to stop it.
00:33 December 13, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg

“who pass their religiously motivated social segregation on to their children and grandchildren down the line “

Who are you talking about so cryptically? 2nd generation? 3rd? Muslims?

You know the history of assimilation - assimilation which is still the main problem for some people?

WHERE is the spiritual Wasteland? Here? There?

Now it's ok for you to situate yourself at the pinnacle of the European Development Index and with the most good-hearted of intentions continue to sit up there and pontificate about the rest of immigrant humanity which unlike yourself is on “lower levels of Maslow's socio-psychological pyramid of needs”

Don't forget that people are made of individuals. Muslims are also HUMAN BEINGS.

Consider these well-known lines:

"I am a Jew. Hath

not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs,

dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with

the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject

to the same diseases, healed by the same means,

warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as

a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?

if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison

us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not

revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will

resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian,

what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian

wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by

Christian example? Why, revenge. The villany you

teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I

will better the instruction."

Take a look at this:


Whilst I am no terrorist or supporter or justifier of Northern or Southern, Western or Middle Eastern Terrorism, one does not have to look too far to discern the causes of terrorism.

What do you think is the psychological state of many individuals and families and their young ones among the immigrant populations who have left some of their kith and kin behind, have fled terrorism, persecution & torture and taken refuge in an accommodating Europe? What is their mental state of health when they are bombarded with bad news everyday? I should think that if you and I were in their normal everyday situations we would be needing counselling, to say the least.

And now some boneheads want to blame Muslims – all Muslims for the first and second World Wars and many other wars we can talk about? Why are non-Muslims waging war in Muslim lands? Sucking oil from Muslim lands?

00:41 December 13, 2010 by qed16
@ Cornelius

You're not justifying?... Read your posts dip*hit. We're supposed to "Have a heart" for cold blooded killers?

You are a terrorist apologist. You are a traitor to your country and the innocent people who had to run for their lives yesterday.

Nothing that has happened anywhere in the world is an excuse for trying to kill women pushing baby carriages in Hötorget... Nothing, including injustices elsewhere in the world.

There are other ways to protest war and imperialism besides killing Swedish civilians so no, I won't "Have a heart" for them or ignorant West hating terrorist apologists like you.
00:48 December 13, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
What I wrote ( very hurriedly for that matter) was:

"Meanwhile the sad, inescapable facts are as follows: NATO & CO have KILLED hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslim Civilians in cold blood and passed it off as collateral damage. Have a heart!"

You are supposed to "Have a heart" about all the innocent victims in Auschwitz

in China, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Gaza, all those that Saddam & scumbags decimated in Iran
03:00 December 13, 2010 by Truth_Teller
My post was cut off, here is the rest...........................

The "social contract" of the modern social market economies and social democracies doesn't mean endless support for those who are unwilling to enter the knowledge-based mainstream culture because of their religion refuses the prevailing secular solidarity society. Solidarity always needs to be 'mutual' if it is to function long-lasting.

Solidarity systems are based on temporary aid to enable the disadvantaged (especially children) to enter mainstream society one day; so that the caring society has at least a chance to get back 'solidarity' one day in future. This concept is contrary to the libertarian thinking of this magazine, but it is an indispensable 'must' in all truly Social Democratic thinking.

Thus it is no accident that the new critical stances toward immigrants, who are unwilling to take positively part in the mainstream solidarity culture of the societies the choose to live in, come mainly from traditional Social Democracies such as Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands and from deep rooted Social Democrats such as Thilo Sarrazin.

Again: The Social Democratic worldview is a two-way solidarity-road. This is also why 'multiculturalism' has proven to be unworkable in solidarity-based Social Democracies and Social Market Economies when they have entered already the stage of a modern "knowledge based society". The acquisition of the prevailing cultural techniques is here even more essential than in any of the previous social and economical models.

If members of an immigrating culture refuse lastingly and solidly to become a vital part of in the knowledge based culture they migrated into, then the members of this "alien" culture will never be able to contribute their part to the existing "social contract", but will by majority be constantly at the receiving end of the 'transfer pipe', which will à la longue become an unbearable strain on the social concept of the host societies . . . as we can observe increasingly already now.
04:08 December 13, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg

Sweden is NOT Germany (Too may differences… Germany has a greater number of resident Turks than Sweden has. In 1989 Iranians already had their own hospital in Hamburg and a few years later had made many inroads in Cologne where I was privileged to say “Hi” to Annemarie Schimmel once more, a few years after I attended her lecture on Rumi, at the Goethe Institute, here in Stockholm,

“those who are unwilling to enter the knowledge-based mainstream culture because of their religion refuse the prevailing secular solidarity society.” (Exaggerated.)

“…. immigrants, who are unwilling to take positively part in the mainstream solidarity culture of the societies they choose to live in…” (So abstract!)

Let's consider - from an entirely Human & Humane point of view, the Human Beings that are immigrants - from all corners of Mother Earth , even from the pale of Islam. As you know, the majority of adult Iranians - mostly the opposition to the Mullahs leave their lives in Iran behind them, come here and are mostly already highly educated, even before they arrive in Sweden. I know quite a few who are qualified and have further qualified themselves here, to make valuable contributions in Science and technology and other fields and would like to “enter the knowledge-based mainstream culture” – not that they must necessarily bend over backwards or sell their souls to the devil or give up their cultural bearings in order to become “Swede-ish” for to win the Noble Prize for Jan Björklund and Sweden.

A couple of Iranian dentists, mathematicians, computer geniuses, chess players etc have relocated to the United Kingdom where they now live quite successful family lives.

Egyptians are among the best doctors and surgeons in the world.

There are quite a few Sudanese working for NASA.

The heart of Iranian pop music is located in California.

Believe it or not it's Barack Hussein Obama and not John Svensson that's president of the United States of America.

Not too many Swedes object to Zlatan Ibrahimovic scoring a few goals for Sweden


Still on the Human Dimension, think of an average person from a troubled Islamic country or under- privileged Africa – think of the Golgotha journey to Sweden and upon arrival here some of the myriads of problems: culture shock disorientation, sometimes the long waiting period in a refugee camp, possible deterioration into

“Alienation” … there's family and kids, sometimes the head of the family (Big Daddy) loses his big boss patriarchal power - - cannot cope with the language etc…was the director of a medium sized company in Iran or Iraq and now cannot find employment in Sweden where they ought to be assisted – for the benefit of Sweden to which country they can make tremendous contributions.

In my opinion we ought to try to help all the people who we (Sweden) have taken in….

The second to third generation will have surely integrated, assimilated beyond your most paranoid fears that “others” are not Human beings capable of adapting within a generation two like anybody else.

I'm now going to listen to Bert Jansch doing this before going back to bed:


Goodnight/ good morning…..

Best regards,

07:26 December 13, 2010 by Alf Garnett
Beware the ides of march!! The end is nigh

@Cornelius: you've been reading to much Enid Blyton. Try moving to an Arab country & demand to live like a european, I swear you will not last long.
07:33 December 13, 2010 by Rick Methven
"'m now going to listen to Bert Jansch doing this before going back to bed:"

Thanks for that, brought back fond memories of Bert in my folk club in Hastings in the 60's
08:14 December 13, 2010 by Drug_Baron
Why integrate when you can assimilate !
08:37 December 13, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Ides of March come but not gone?

I slept through the mess.

Doomsday Prophet, I know where you're coming from, you're Alfie the postman from Baghdad, the one the scriptures have been talking about.

Enid Blyton? When you were drooling over the Famous Five in your nappy, the poor lad had zipped through Sir Walter Scott


Cheers mate, hold in there and hang tight.
08:59 December 13, 2010 by Drug_Baron
Integrate ? Why ?

Celebrate the differences !
10:47 December 13, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Rick Methven,

You dig Bert...

He's been here at least twice....

Could you please try to bring him back to Sweden for us music lovers...

10:49 December 13, 2010 by Alf Garnett
@cornelius: I was out of nappies by the time I got to F5, preferred English Lit to Scots, thought Willy S was far superior. :-))

Who told you I was a postman? the title is Cultural attaché
10:54 December 13, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
Till death do us part - it figures...

Is it true that George Bernard Shaw once said " I can think of no writer in English Literature, not even Sir Walter Scott , who I more despise than Shakepeare, when I match my intellect against his own"?

Is it true that your best friend Muammar al-Qadhafi says that Old Bill was an Arab and that his real name was Sheikh Speare?

You want me to try living in an Arab country - well I did in Egypt for almost half a year.

N.B. Muammar has invited Israel to join the Arab League....

" Vaster than Empires but more slow " Perhaps I had better wait till then...?
11:02 December 13, 2010 by Alf Garnett
He also said :- A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education.

Maybe a reflection of his own intellect.
16:05 December 13, 2010 by Truth_Teller
So he wanted to kill people over a cartoon.

Religion of Peace.....
18:22 December 13, 2010 by Alf Garnett
@cornelius & rick m: Musik is ok but has Bert learnt to pronounce his words yet or is he still chewing a brick?
19:21 December 28, 2010 by buckrogersday
Comment removed by The Local for breach of our terms.
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