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Swedish teens drink less alcohol

TT/Clara Guibourg · 5 Jul 2011, 09:52

Published: 05 Jul 2011 09:52 GMT+02:00

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Cigarette smoking is also on the decline, as is the percentage of students reporting that they've tried narcotics, according to a recent report from the Swedish Council for Information on Alcohol and Other Drugs (Centralförbundet för alkohol- och narkotikaupplysning - CAN), published on Tuesday in newspaper Dagens Nyheter.

In 2011, the percentage of ninth grade boys who've tried alcohol in the past year has sunk to 55 percent, which marks the lowest level since CAN began with their investigations in 1971.

Just ten years ago, that figure was 77 percent.

"We see similar developments in other Nordic countries, and also in the United States. It seems to be an international trend," said Björn Hibell, CAN's director, to Dagens Nyheter.

Although girls' alcohol consumption is also decreasing, 15-year-old girls are still somewhat more inclined to start drinking early compared to their male counterparts. According to CAN's report, 59 percent drank alcohol last year.

Björn Hibell believes boys' increased computer game habits may be part of the reason for their diminished interest in drinking.

"Sitting by the computer playing games is perhaps more boy-oriented than girl-oriented. That might be a contributing factor," he said to DN.

Sobriety organisation IOGT-NTO thinks the explanation lies with a new youth culture, where being alert is important.

"When you play computer games, or rehearse with your rock band, it doesn't work to be drunk. This is incredibly positive," said the organisation's head Anna Carlstedt to news agency TT.

More and more young people are choosing to be open with their sobriety. Youth sobriety organisation UNF has increased their membership figures.

"What new members often say is that they're incredibly tired of their parents drinking so much. In a way it's sad, but they describe it as a protest against the adult world."

Story continues below…

Smoking figures are also declining. Last year 26 percent of girls and 19 percent of boys smoked cigarettes.

CAN investigates alcohol and drug use among 15 and 16 year-olds every year. In 2011's investigation, roughly 4,600 students participated in their anonymous classroom surveys.

TT/Clara Guibourg (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

10:42 July 5, 2011 by jostein
More like the swedish people is being replaced at an ever faster rate for non alcohol consuming cultures.
11:00 July 5, 2011 by Max Reaver

oh yeah, dude, oh yeah
11:10 July 5, 2011 by rise
What's good with this? Instead they are taking drugs easily ordered on the Internet. Drugs that the authorities haven't classified as narcotics, yet, and therefore is legal. When one substance finally IS classified as narcotics it is easy for the makers to just change some molecules and call it something else, and the selling keeps on until this "new" substance also is classified as narcotics - a slowly procedure that takes months. And in the meantime kids are getting drug addicts in a perfectly legal way.
11:45 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee
More useless results from another taxpayers funded Think Tank?

Obviously whoever conducted this "survey" (hahahaha) has not ever been out on the streets on a Friday or Saturday night, or been in a position to be ANYWHERE near teenage Swedísh children.

@rise- and usually combining the drugs with the alcohol too

@jostein- SWEDE- by definition in the dictionary.

1.(turnip)cultivated for its bulbous edible root, which is used as a vegetable and as cattle fodder

2. a native, citizen, or inhabitant of Sweden

What is wrong with not consuming alcohol? AND if there are teens living in Sweden from other cultures, in most cases they have become Swedish citizens. So by your own statement, since that does NOT make them Swedes, then I guess that makes you a TURNIP!
12:05 July 5, 2011 by jostein
11:45 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee

12:30 July 5, 2011 by prince T
I am not convinced about this research and it depends where it was conducted. New youths are doing it and the number is rising. may be the old youths doing it are reducing.
13:23 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee

Wikipedia, created in 2004 by Jimmy Wales (who is a businessman NOT a scholar of any kind) is a source of knowledge generated by anyone on the intenet who has a wikipedia account. They are free to edit information or add information. Anyone is. This makes Wikipedia, athough a good general source for basic knowledge or reference, not reliable or complete. THIS IS STATED BY WIKIPEDIAS OWN CREATORS- (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer)

Here also is a quote from the New York Times, one of the worls most respected newspapers "If you follow the news about Wikipedia, even casually, you're probably aware that something is changing. What you probably don't realize is that what you've been led to believe is almost certainly completely wrong."

The worlds oldest and most accurate encyclopedia, The Encyclopedia Britannica, begain in 1774 and has been continually updated by the world´s most prestigious educators, professors and scholars from 1815 until today. You can read more about the world's leading authority on accurate information at- http://corporate.britannica.com/company_info.html

The Encyclopedia Britanica's definition of " Swede" is as follows.

1: a: inhabitant of Sweden b: a person of Swedish descent

2: rutabaga (please note- a rutabaga is another word for turnip)

Thus, since CLEARLY by your predjudice you are of Swedish descent, you can be classified as a Swede.

Thus, as well, since I and many others are inhabitants of Sweden (and citizens also) we most definately are Swedes also.

This being said, if you disregard the latter truth, you must also disregard the former as well............... bringing us back to the conclusion that you must indeed be a TURNIP!
13:47 July 5, 2011 by jostein

And if you check the issue from 1774, what would it have said under then? My bet is it would have said the same as in 1874 and the same as in 1974 and the same as the wikipedia article i linked to.

Really, you people are amazing. Which people will you deny the right to exist when you are done exterminating the swedes? The Navaho? The Basques? The Mon? The Kurds? The Maori?
14:12 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee
Exterminating the SWEDES? HAHAHAHAHA You are a riot!!! I do not recall anyone exterminating the Swedes, myself included love ;-) since, by definition, I too am a Swede. (bet you find THAT one hard to take huh?)

I do not think you fully understood my last post. Wikipedia is a good GENERAL basis for knowledge, however is can contain

misinformation or missing information. The encyclopedia Britannica is the most complete source of accurate information we have at this time and it includes me, or Ali Baba or Juan Valdez or Joe Smith as a Swede if they inhabit Sweden (Bonus to be citizens too)

When the world was created, God, The cosmic forces, Thor (or whoever or whatever you believe) did not designate this little plot of land called Sweden for only someone with your ethnic background love. It was created for mankind the rest of us included...not just the Nordic ones.

Feel free to go forth and populate, that is mankinds option.

And since you are so enthralled with Wikipedia being the end all authority on info, you may want to note that the race you like to call "Swedes" are actually German descendants kiddo. (which may explain the leftover Na- zi mindset. Talk about extermination!)

So I guess the Sami should kick your German behind back to Germany huh?

Now can we please get back to the topic of the article which is not about race but teens drinking. SHEESH
14:32 July 5, 2011 by Streja
The Sami, hmm they live up north though don't they?

Jaqueline, I agree with you but I don't think there is any evidence to say that Götaland was once inhabited by the Sami.
15:06 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee
I agree. The point to be made here to jostein and such narrow minded thinkers is that they too were originally immigrants who moved into a land that, at that time, was populated by the Sami. Remotely populated, agreed, but still the Sami were the indigenous people and NOT the Germans (AKA Swedes) when they moved to Sweden, the new home. The same can be said for all immigrants all IMMIGRANTS moving to Sweden including the former German oops! I mean Swedish ones.

This is their right as it is every other humans right to find a home to raise their families.

But this is so typically selective reasoning, cherry picking if you will. Pick that part of the truth you want to embrace and sweep the other part under the carpet and hope no one notices.

I got news for your Sven. Guess what? You are German. Willkommen in Schweden Ihr neues Zuhause. Svin Bra.
15:33 July 5, 2011 by Keith #5083
I find this research to be believable from my observations when speaking of a majority and not a minority.

As for the 'other cultures' argument, well, the nature of teens is to rebel and therefore whichever culture it is from the same motivational drive applies. I know of no cultures who, in practice and often in secret, do not drink alcohol. Pretence is not limited to cultural background.

All in all it seems like the human race, through it's internationally-wired youth, is beginning to mature beyond the societal addictions of drugs, alcohol, nicotine, religion and racism.

Encouraging news :-)
15:47 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee

Thank you for bringing the topic of the article back in focus at last. I agree it is the nature of youth to rebell, whether publicly or privately is usual defined by the punishment inflicted if found out. I hope this article is true, most sincerely. There has been a lot of "lost souls" in todays youth for several decades and alcohol can be, in actuality, far worse than drugs because of it's social acceptance and the fact it is legal to buy and sell. I am skeptical though, as I have teenage children and I witness the way the greater number of kids they know and associate with conduct themselves on weekends and at fest time. It is scary to say the least. I am holding on to the hope this is grounded in some real truth and not just some "survey" they asked 100 teens or so about, or a similar scenario.
17:05 July 5, 2011 by belardo
i cant believe there are people use WIKIPEDIA as a source of information!
18:05 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee
@belardo. I KNOW! It is so corrupted and unreliable.
18:23 July 5, 2011 by jostein
@jacquelinee 15:06

First of all, it is rediculous that i have to go back thousands of years to prove that we as a people exist. It is plain to see for anyone with a minimum of knowledge of Sweden. But here you go.

Since posting many links is not allowed I will post the suffix to this prefix, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Wether the scandinavians became germans or germans became scandinavians is not really clear. Most linguistic evidence suggest a version of the former. The migrationwaves from scandinavia to europe between 1700bc and 1000ad suggest the former. What genetics say i do not know. Archeology seems inconclusive. It is however clear that vivid contacts of all sorts have existed throught the millenia. Which also mean that the trickle of immigrants have not been strangers at all but related culturally and ethnically. Unlike the flood we have seen the last 30 years.




When the ice receeded the probable ancestors of the sami had a lifestyle that thrived on the tundra close to the ice. It is disputed if any sami settled when the ice and the tundra moved north. Archeological evidence of sami in the south exist from 1400-1500 or such. This might be due to a move south or it might be that they coexisted with the scandinavians.

About 1000 years after the ice came other people. If the sami were still there is not known. Neither is it known if these new folks were my ancestors or not. A continous sami presence in northern scandinavia has solid archeological support. A continous sami presence in southern scandinavia has not.


Truly, your arrogance and contempt for the indigenous people of Sweden are those of a colonizer. I guess that is natural as long as you and your allies are in power. Personally, I would not put my trust in journalists and politicians. They are trecherous and fickle. But keep spitting on us "germans" and deny us our right to our identity. Your clarity is a value in itself. It is always good to learn what our new compatriots think.


I disagree. I know much and more of many things and only rarely do i find things that are blatantly incorrect on wikipedia, not even in my field of professional expertize.

Furthermore, wikipedia has a brilliant feature, the discussion tab. In most academic fields different factions and viewpoints compete. An encyclopedia has to chooze between being bland or being partisan. If you find an article in a controversial field that you find partisan, you can always go to the discussion tab and hear the other side of the story. If you find an article overly bland, you can visit the discussion tab to have the various factions and conflicts fleshed out. The one problem with wikipedia is when there is little interest in the subject and few editors.

And of course, if you find wikipedia such a poor source, it will be a cakewalk to disprove whatever point someone uses it for?
19:14 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee
@jostein And I rest my case...........This information you gleaned from wikipedia, and is wrong.

You may want to actually read up on your FACTUAL history as follows:

"The Sami (Lapp) people have inhabited the northern portions of , Finland, Norway, Sweden and eastward over the Russian Kola Peninsula since prehistoric times. Russia, Finland, Norway and Sweden have claimed territories until the modern day home of the Sami is what is now regarded as Sapmi (Lapland). To some extent, these countries have been forced to recognized the property rights of the Sami there as the original Scandiavian population.

The first time Thule (Scandinavia) specifically Finland, Norway Sweden were mentioned was in Roman written documents in the 1st century (79 AD) Tacitus writes in the Latin book "Germania" about early German tribes of "Sviar" invading Scandinavia, who lived off the ocean, sailing in large fleets of boats with a prow at either end, no sail, using paddles, and strong, loyal, well-armed men with spikes in their helmets. They drove the Lapps (Sami)north in an effort to dive them out of Scandinavia and concuer this region."

As I said, How gracious of the Sami to allow The Germanic interlopers to become the first IMMIGRANT settlers in Sweden. Guess we have a lot more in common that you thought Jostein, fellow immigrant :-)

And I repeat...WHAT does this have to do at all with teenage drinking in Sweden. FOCUS Jostein! FOCUS!
20:08 July 5, 2011 by jostein

11:45 you claimed swedes are not a people, in essence, they do not exist. You did this in the most insulting way possible and you stay at it. You did not realize that would derail the discussion on a board frequently visited by "germans"?

Furthermore, taking an excerpt from tacitus as gospel is hardly serious? Källkritik? Furthermore, you do not qoute exactly from tacitus and you do not give a sourcereference which is poor style. If you want to qoute tacitus, qoute.

Furthermore, what is known is that northern scandinavia has been the land of the sami since time imemorial and us scandinavians are rather recent arrivals there. I said as much myself when i wrote about the sami article.

Here is a general map of the ancestral home of the swedes (svear and geats which fused together to form the backbone of the modern swedes).


Your ravings of the sami are just, well, ravings. Some things are known, some things are not known. But you go right ahead and tell the "germans" you meet that swedes do not exist to their face. I dont think you have the guts for it, frankly.

If you consider the cataclysmic effect on the schoolsystem of the immigration of the last 40 years and the cataclysmic effect on the crime statistics it would be reasonable to expect that this unprecedent immigration had effected the amount of alcohol consumed per young person. Different peoples drink in different ways. The drinking culture of the "germans" is closer to the russians than to that of the french for example, the so-called "brännnvinsbältet".

If this hypothesis is the real explanation of the study it will be less than worthelss to anyone who do not understand this. You will start to try to explain why kids changed their behaviour when in fact they didnt, it was the kids themselves that were exchanged. What percentage of kids in highschoolage today are first or second or third generation immigrants with no "german" relations? 25%? 30%?
20:46 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee
@jostein It is what you call "parphrasing" Unfortunately, this forum on the Local really does not have enough space to quote the entire book.

To all the lovely, intelligent, educated, Swedes I have met, who understand that people are people and every race has it's share of bad people and good people;that the world was created for mankind to live and raise families together in harmony and that inspite of the fact a daisy is white and a daffodil is yellow, they are both flowers and both beautiful and both can grow equally well in Sweden without one stomping out the other. To these people I apologise for the comments below. They are not meant for you and I feel your embarassment at being classified in the same lot. It would be like someone classifying me as someone who appears on the J- erry S- pringer show. To you I apologise for the sarcasm below.

Ok JOSTEIN I GIVE UP!!!!! You are right, you are the true superior race. The Amazing Swedes. The original supermen. The golden people. The owners of the rights to land of Sweden maybe even the entire earth.

I imagine you have a bill of sale from the Lord above! The Lord made the earth cuz he knew you were coming!You compromise less than 0.15 per cent of the world's population but the other 99.85% should kiss your royal Scadinavian ars-se-s because you are so perfect and blamesless and the other 99.85% percent of the poulation are responsible for all the problems in the world (except the ones you can trace your lineage back to of course) I get the drill.

Your halos are gleaming. One thing for sure, it doesn't matter where you go in the world from the Black Hills in the USA to the sunny shores of Skäne and all the other places in between. You can spot em a mile away and ....A hillbilly is a hillbilly.
21:01 July 5, 2011 by jostein
"To all the lovely, intelligent, educated, Swedes I have met, who understand that people are people and every race has it's share of bad people and good people;that the world was created for mankind to live and raise families together in harmony and that inspite of the fact a daisy is white and a daffodil is yellow, they are both flowers and both beautiful and both can grow equally well in Sweden without one stomping out the other."

Like in södertälje or malmö like? As for your rantings, it is loud and dishonest and rude. Anyway, im happy you informed me of your thoughts. It is most helpfull.
21:04 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee
Like I said...........a hillbilly is a hillbilly. If the name fits, wear it.
23:41 July 5, 2011 by jostein
You begin with jokes about swedes being vegetables and finish with a racial slur. How apt.
23:54 July 5, 2011 by jacquelinee

I never made any joke about vegetables love. The root vegetable I was referring to is, in actuality, in the dictionary (any english dictionary, I can not speak for all languages)known as a turnip, swede or rutabaga. I didn't invent the definition. That came before I was even born and probably because that vegetable is readily grown in Sweden. If you read what I am saying, the inference is abundantly clear.

And my last post #22 is NOT a racial slur. It has nothing what so ever to do with race. It is about stupidity and ignorance. It is not directed toward any race, it is directed toward an individual.

And, yet again I enphatically state - if the name fits, wear it.
00:12 July 6, 2011 by jostein
In spain they say "hacer el sueco" to what you just did in #23 which is pretty funny. Hillbilly refers originally to backward white protestants which is what you want to paint on me.

You cant even see yourself, can you?
01:12 July 6, 2011 by jacquelinee

actually... this is what a hillbilly refers to when someone calls another a hillbilly......

A hillbilly by definition in this case , is a person who usually is of the white race from the backwoods, meaning removed from the present world and the present reality, usually drinks whiskey, is generally ignorant of anything out of their own locale, closed minded and big mouthed, generally of lower intelligence and are isolated and out of touch with modern culture.

A streotypical hillbilly is a white supremecist from the deep south, bigoted and uneducated on matters outside the realm of their own "clan".

And I never once said that was you. However, if you happen to have seen yourself in that word perhaps you may want to rethink your ideas of the modern world.

You are a Swede, by your history, by your location and by your cultural definition. You are a Swede that was, and a Swede that is. I however am a new Swede, the Swede of the future, same as you. I am not trying to exterminate your identity. That is just plain ridiculous. But you better get use to it. We are in the technological age, the computer age, the age of air travel and space travel and the world is getting to be a more intertwined place...Sweden included. The longboat days are long dead and gone.

Your quote "What percentage of kids in highschoolage today are first or second or third generation immigrants with no "german" relations? 25%? 30%? " Hey love...if they are 3rd generation immigrants in Sweden...They are SWEDES!!! You better get use to the fact that the future is here and you can be a Swede without being of German descent. You are a Swede of German descent and I am a Swede of Canadian descent and their are Swedes of Somalian descent and Irish descent and Chinese descent etc. but like it or not jostein, they are Swedes. so suck it up and get use to it.

And your statement that the reason teenagers drink is because the school system went down the drain because their are immigrants is class is just totally ludicris! It is because the educational system here is betyg driven rather than knowledge driven and that has NOTHING to do with immigration.
03:30 July 6, 2011 by jostein

You are obviously racist like we saw from your hillbilly qoutes and your numerous attacks on swedes and swedish etneticity and your attempts to deny our very existence, just read back in the thread. And when I point out that hillbilly is a racist slur your reaction is to first deny it. Then you come back and dishonestly pretend it was not directed at me. Try doing the same with the n word for example in a conversation with a black man?

If you go to a place to live and manage not to mix blood with the natives for three generations that does not make you a native, it makes you a colonist.

As for your manhandling of the argument i made about drinking habits, well, you are being dishonest. Fortunately anyone can go back and read it the way i wrote it.

Furthermore, the articles i posted of the origins of the germans and the pre germanic languages were obviously wasted on you. I do not know if it is a lack of reading and reasoning skills or just if its just more dishonesty. But it hardly matters.

Your performance in this thread really speaks volumes. You are hostile to me and mine. I really dont need to know any more than that about you.
10:55 July 6, 2011 by jacquelinee

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I am not a racist.

I have close pesonal friends who are black, who are swedes of ALL ethnic lineage, who are brazillian who are north american Indian, who are east indian, who come from China, Tailand, Ireland, Indonesia Ethiopia. I grew up in Canada, a land completely built on immigration of ALL cultures because the indigenous people were a nomadic race and moved continually. This first cities in Canada were built by French immigrants.

The North American Indian in Canada are Canadian, So am I by birth. The Maori are Australian and so are the other peoples who have made Australia their home etc. You are a Swede of Germanic descent ( I am presuming) whose ancestors have dwelled in Sweden for many many generations. I am a new Swede and the forefather of future Generations who can make the same claim as you do now.

I am certainly NOT a racist against anyone and most pointedly not against the Germanic Swedes as I fell in love with and married one and have Germanic Swedish/ Scottish Canadian children. So your argument falls on it's face.

And calling someone a hillbilly is no more a racist statement that your Swedish expression of calling a pimple a finn.

I am however, by re-reading your posts, inclined to come to the conclusion that you ARE a racist. And a Swede by anyother lineage other than the Germanic one, is still a Swede. Any other conclusions I have come to, concerning you as an individual, show no refection on the rest of the Swedes who com from Germanic lineage. I am VERY sure most of them will be relieved to hear that.
15:49 July 6, 2011 by Rick Methven
To get this story back on track......

It seems that there is a trend for today's young people to not drink.

A UK study that shows more and more young people in the UK are not drinking.

Read The rise of the Teetotal generation

18:41 July 6, 2011 by jacquelinee
Thanks Rick..........
18:04 July 7, 2011 by redfish
lol "...who've tried alcohol in the last year". My parents let me try wine when I was younger than 15 at a dinner. Today I'm over 30 and I rarely drink, and never drink to get drunk, just occasionally as an addition to a meal.

I wonder though, how many of these young people in Sweden who won't take a sip of alcohol, nonetheless smoke pot ? Many young people who are pot smokers tend to hate alcohol, its a joined mindset. They view it as a 'better' drug.

The problem imo isn't drinking alcohol in itself, its the attitude towards life where you need constant escape in drugs. If younger people are moving off of beer and going on marijuana its not better.
22:18 July 7, 2011 by jostein

The way i heard the story told you neigh exterminated the original inhabitants with disease and firearms and immigration and took their lands and robbed them of their culture and all they held dear and stuffed them into reservations. Got nothing to do with

"I grew up in Canada, a land completely built on immigration of ALL cultures because the indigenous people were a nomadic race and moved continually.".

Well, im an indigenous person and already you are claiming i do not exist. Arent you jumping ahead of yourself? You come here and demand that i change the name of me and mine. We have been called swedes or its mothers for thousands of years. And now suddenly im a "Germanic descent" just to cater to these colonists bleeding sensibilities?


And you come here and tell me how morally superior you are? Telling me how backward i am? Maybe put me in a school to teach me how increadibly superior you are? Hear multiresistent tuberculoses is on the rise, incidentally brought here by immigrants. So maybe your canadian schoolsystem can make a repeat performance?
07:23 July 8, 2011 by Grokh
I think its a generation thing, older swedish generations need alcohol to be warmer people, and let go of their shyness, newer generations are warmer.

Meanwhile newer generations also have more stuff to do than to just get drunk, people got drunk in the middle ages there wasnt tv or internet. lol.

And since sweden has heavy alcohol problems that affect alot of children its a good thing.

Im atheist and i dont drink alcohol, all the muslims ive met in this country drink alot of alcohol, so i dont know what some people are trying to insinuate with the whole not drinking alcohol thing, being a drunktard is nothing to be proud of.

Not that im defending swedens imbalanced immigration policies, but on this case not drinking alcohol has nothing to do with religion, it has probably more to do with staying home and playing world of warcraft.
12:16 July 8, 2011 by jacquelinee

you cant reason with a racist, so I will stop trying

@grokh Precisely.
13:41 July 8, 2011 by jostein

I sympathize, painting a genocide as "the indigenous people were a nomadic race and moved continually" and describe it as happy multiculturalism must be difficult, even for you.
15:36 July 8, 2011 by jacquelinee
Scenario -

You are given a significant plot of land in a desirable location, by a beautiful lake for example, for free. You are provided freely the materials for a home, given an allowance for furnishing it, given an allowance to upgrade your car every few years. Your community is provided with all the same benefits as the entire population including all infastructure ie: highways sewage, water, electricity, heat, health care etc that the general population are taxed nearly 35% of their income to maintain. The government provides you with a tax emption card so you pay 0% tax. Your co-worker makes the same wage you do but takes home to his family 35% less than you on their salary because of your tax exemp card. Your co worker must pay 70,000 to 350,000 kronor to educate their children, but your childrens eduaction is free. Your co worker is responsible for all their dental bills, yours are free. You are provided with medical, eduactional, dental and law facilities in your immediate neighbourhood and these are provided by the governemnt agecies of your neighbour.

You great great great grandfather sold a piece of his land for 1,000 kronor, but it is now worth 5,000,000 so you ask for the difference and often get it. Your community has well established businesses such as Classy Casinos similar to some in Las Vegas, a thriving tobacco industry with more "natural" tobacco not using many dangerous chemicals, you run buffalo farms, vacationing lodges that are thriving and your communities are turning a healthy profit.

I believe this sounds like a pretty good scenario. Sure wish I had this option. This is what the indigenous First Nations people are provided with by the govenment established by the first immigrants who came to co-exist with the First Nations Canadian aboriginal people. Does not sound like too much of a genocide to me.

Do you think the Sami people have those same benefits here is Sweden?
17:33 July 8, 2011 by jostein
Well, stuff happens i guess and it does not seem like the plan was to exterminate the children of the natives of canada physically, the idea seems to have been to exterminate their culture and their sense of self and their traditions. Even though the up to 60% deathrates reported from these obligatory schools make that seem rather academic. Read the link i provided about canadian policy mid 19th centuary to early/mid 20th. That history is admitted to by the Canadian government so, well, why argue? If you are not carefull you will end up in the same box as David Irving and other revisionists? Why base your version of history on wishfull thinking?

I dont know, i guess we can simply conclude that you dont like natives? I guess we, or at least our identity, have to be done away with so that your utopian multicultural society can be implemented? Is that how i should understand your refusal to admit that we even exist? That we should change our name and our culture according to your fancies? I mean, if it were only you it would not be worth hijacking this thread but you are part of a powerful and well connected ideology. Even top swedish politicians speak the same brutalities and arrogance you do and all the media sing the same song.

And that the surviving natives of canada get benefits today, well, i guess there is nothing else to do. It does not however change the fact that that multiculti society is built on a crime. Isnt holding canada up as a positive example the same as arguing that this crime should be repeated in sweden? Especially coupled with your whitewashing version of past events, it does not inspire confidence?

As for the Sami, yes, us swedes behaved in much the same way against them as the canadians behaved against the natives of canada during about the same period. Which is terrible. I do believe the deathtoll was nowhere near as high, but that is guesswork on my part and even so, a poor excuse. In fact, we destroyed more of their culture than Canada destroyed of the first nations. And if we were discussing the rights of swedes in norrland i would be at a severe disadvantage in this discussion. But even i would not be so arrogant as to demand that the Sami should consider every person who wanders about in norrland a Sami.
19:15 July 8, 2011 by jacquelinee
OMG! The scottish were brutalised a few hundred years ago by the British and the North and the South in the USA tried hard to wipe each other out. The norsemen took a crack at the eskimos too and the french and the Britisg tried to wipe each other out a few hundred years ago. The Spanish inquisition and it goes on and on. For the love of GOD they were individuals who lived hundreds of years ago. Aimmigrant french settlers did not shoot Native tribes at the airport in Toronto last week. And they didn't scalp people boarding the planes.

Paul McCartney isn't over starving Ewan McGregors family. Get a grip. HELLO the middle agesa are gone.

I have no grudge against anyone. I just have no patience for fools of ANY race.

I am not really clear which link you want me to read. But here is a link for the native people of Canada that live in THIS century not in the time of Champlain. maybe take a look at how well they are taken care of. And if you knew about Canadians (all races of Canadians) you would know that each native culture is encouraged to ambrace both Canadian culture and their ethnic culture.

01:25 July 9, 2011 by jostein

David Irvin version .2, aka jacquelinee.
10:44 July 9, 2011 by jacquelinee

I have bigger fish to fry..... Done!
14:03 July 9, 2011 by jostein

Just wanted to comment on something you said in post #37

"Get a grip. HELLO the middle agesa are gone. "

I totally agree. However, you insist on bringing it up? When i google the stuff you bring up like the history of the sami or the origin of the swedes i do it in response to posts YOU have posted? For example in your post #9? I mean, what would you suggest i do when you use history in your arguments? Ignore it?

And yes, i brought up the history of the aboriginal people in canada but firstly, it was relevant to an argument you made and secondly, it is not THAT ancient, seems it was going on in some form or another until 1951?
00:43 July 10, 2011 by jacquelinee

The swedish teens may be drinking less, but since starting this convo. with you, I am drinking a lot more....actually heavily! hahahahaha
11:37 July 10, 2011 by jostein
Hehe, well, im actually enjoying myself. I think its good to go against the wall and find out what oneself really think, have to defend ones position. It will make me understand myself better.

I guess your position is that im a backward looking troglodyte thats not on this train of modern multiculti and even a hazard to the wheels of the engine.

I guess my position really is that you are playing with dangerous ideas with no foundation in history and that threatens my people with genocide. Just because you break the nationstate of sweden and succeed in convincing the swedes that they are not a people/ethnicity does not matter doesnt mean that history stops. And where it goes from there looks bleak, from the evidence we can see in sweden. It seems that people continue to group themselves on ethnicity as we can see from the many ethnic enclaves that has developed in sweden. And few of these think of themselves as swedes. The human animal is not a kind animal. It never was. All you can do with propaganda is to make the human animal CLAIM it is kind. I see no value in that.

But truly, our conversation is a sham. Because "swede" is more than one word these days. It DOES mean your bleeding vegetable. And it DOES mean a person that is member of the swedish ethnic group. And it DOES mean a person that holds swedish citizenship. You can see how the newspapers struggle with this when our new compatriots commit mischief or get into trouble abroad. Sometimes they write "swedish citizen", sometimes they write "swede" sometimes they have Swede in the header but revert to "swedish citizen" in the article. The confusion and our conversation is based on the fact that these 3 words are spelled the same.

More or less :)
16:25 July 10, 2011 by jacquelinee

I agree with you totally. I am swedish because I married one, live here and am a citizen. That makes me a Swede. But I am also Canadian, and my heritage is scottish and I am very proud of that heritage as well. I am NOT trying to strip you of your pride in being a Swede. Not at all. And you are more of a Swede because of your birth and history than I am or ever will be in my lifetime. However, I am proud to be classified as a Swede, it is a great country. There are idiocincrities here that annoy me, but there were different ones that annoyed me in Canada too. I embrace Swedish culture and want to adjust to it as a a recent immigrant should adjust in order to appreciate the honor of being accepted into this country.

The problems lies with immigration, when the individual immigrant {not ALL immigrants as a group) refuse to embrace their new culture and adjust, while still holding the love of their previous culture strongly as well. And, in reverse, when the individual with a long history of being a Swede is intolerant and refuses to acknowledge new citizens as part of the människor and to isolate themselves and the immigrant citizens, instead of welcoming them as new neighbours and trying to take positive things they can add to the culture. There was no problem accepting Kabob and pizza and goods sold at Indiska. It has to work both ways. Tolerance and acceptance and adjustment works on both sides of the fence and it is the poision of individual prejudices that poisons society. There is the actual problem.
17:28 July 10, 2011 by jostein
First of all, thanx for your post #41, it was written by the bigger person of us two.

According to me, the main problem with immigration in sweden is that it was an elitist project. The drivers knew they would not get popular support in destroying the nationstate (which was the real project) so they didnt get a popular mandate. And many people that move here now do not move to sweden, they move to an ethnic enclave.

So, the elites sit here with this sorry mess they have created and dont really know what to do. They know that they didnt have support for their policy and it is painfully clear what a catastrophy it turned out to be. One thing they try is to deny that there is such a thing as a swede and that this something would be at all related to ethnicity. And that swedish culture does not exist etcetera. I mean, when the chairman of the "svenska hembygdsförbundet" claim that swedish culture does not exist, you know something is broken. When the prime minister calls his own culture barbaric and claims that swedes do not exist, really?

Another thing they try is to do is to redefine the meaning of democracy since they know how heniously undemocratic their project is. For example, Alf Svensson in SvD a few months.

Sweden is a scary place if you follow official debate and when you consider the irreconcilable tensions these criminals have built into it. I would be surprised if we did not see military on the streets within 15 years.

As for you, marrying into an ethnicity is natural. It is the way the world works and it is not at all problematic. You will be a bit of an outsider but bring colour and perspective to you adopted nation. And your children will have a choice what they want to feel. It is still more problematic but also freer to be half half. Their children in turn will just have an odd grandmother :) The same, surprisingly, goes for adoption. People have been adopted throughout the ages. The longdistance adoption we have seen since the 70ies or somesuch might be a bit odd but not really different in essence. Of course very demanding for the individual but great trials bring great rewards maybe. Like that girl who was a rising star in moderaterna 7 years back, tove something.

Me? Im preparing to hunker down in my own ethnic group and work for us swedes to find a way to survive in the multicultural society. Ie, a society where you compete with nativity, harassment and nepotism instead of as we were used to in the nationstate, with science, art and excellence. We will not succeed.

Friendly advise from me to you, nurture your and your childrens contact with canada. And be happy you have that choice.
20:17 July 10, 2011 by jacquelinee
I see problems in immigration. Good concept, encourages strengthening of genetics. Pure bred animals seem to have problems inspite of purity of breed. The qualities of each particular breed intensifies, but also the genetic flaws I.E predisposition to certain diseases. "Mutt" dogs ( don't like the reference to myself haHA ;-) ) lose some of the characeristics of the original breed, but strengthen the breed i.e.resistence to diseases etc .

(I met a couple. She, blonde, ice blue eyed Nordic. He was Black, They had a little boy with skin the color of creamy coffee, curly hair, a honey golden color, scandinavian bone structure but fuller lips and his eyes were arrestingly blue. He was the most beautiful child I have ever seen in my life.)

Victims of a war or famine get a chance for a new life. Governments do not place proper regulations or limitations before they throw open the doors. I.E The unempyoyment rate goes over 5%, stop immigration till the economy recovers. OR- Clear and well defined legislations put into place and signed by each new immigrant. I.E. If you break the laws of the land, you forfeit the right to stay in the country and once proven guilty, are IMMEDIATELY taken to the airport at the time of the arrest, your ticket is paid by the government back to your original land, your passport etc revoked and you do not have the option to even return to your home for your things, as you have made a decision to become a criminal and thus given up your rights. What happens to you in your own land at this point is not the problem of the country whose laws you have chosen to ignore. You are required to pay for the transport of any possesions you want which will be held for 6 months. If not sent for, sold. The money will be used towards SFI or to offset court costs, your airfare etc. I am a law abiding immigrant, so I do NOT have a proplem with this rule.

Education making the new person aware of what is cuturally, socially accepted as far as behavior dress etc so they can adjust themselves accordingly.The percentage of immigrants should be equally divided between all countries. These are only a few basic immigration regulation that could be incorporated. However, when it has been a "freeforall" for 40 years, and then suddenly the government tries to set up some rules, the problems escalate. Like the internet is so deeply ingrained in out world how can you take a step back? This is a problem Sweden AND North America are having.

Australian authorities say- Australia was built on immigration and encourages it. We welcome you to our land to adopt the laws policies and customs of this land. If you choose not to, you are welcome to go back to the country you are coming from. Embrace your history, be proud of your heritage, lineage but embrace the land you live in and adjust. It is a new land and you need to be humble and thankful for the luxury of living here. .
22:01 July 10, 2011 by jostein
Your thoughts on immigrationpolicy are rational and responsible and normal, imho.

Personally i think the settlerstates and the old european nationstate are two very different beasts. In a settlerstate everyone can be equal. It is not so easy in a nationstate which is founded on one people. Thats why the only natural inroads into a nationstate are adoption and marrige to members of said people. You get a sponsorship, as it were. Other inroads are difficult.

And we have all the huge imbalances that have been built up with this ludicrous policy the last 35 years. So what to do? I have not a clue. I see no realistic version of events that is less than miserable.

Including an entrenched ethnic enclave takes hundereds of years, at the very least. And our ethnic enclaves in sweden consists of the hardest, most clanbased cultures in the entire world. And noone really wanted them here to start with. They are perfectly adapted to the multicultural society. We dont trust them and they dont trust the state. The states only sway over them is coercion by bribes or violence. Every citizens willingness to pay taxes or show goodwill is decreasing each year since taxes goes to "the others". Which means central authority decreases. Which means that more people have to adopt clanlike behaviour. In a vicious circle towards oblivion.

An example is the rules for wellfare benefits, sick leave pay and the like. There was something like a scandal or mediathingie or whatever in the beginning of the nineties when widespread cheating was revealed. The rules and controlstructures surrounding these systems turned out to be increadibly naive. I believe that thats the difference, before we had huge ehtnic minorities the rules could be naive, the real controlstructures were social pressures. Such pressures dont reach across ethnic boundries. When we lost our "we" benefits were there to be abused, not used when you needed them. Swedes have caught on to this now as well and behave similarly. Bad behaviour drives out good. Or see how much junk there is in the street today? In the seventies the streets were clean. Because of the same social pressures. But clean streets is a fragile thing. Because why not throw stuff where you stand if they are already filled with debris? Im a middle aged man. So, if kids are misbehaving it is my duty to step in and tell them off. But such authoroty does not reach across ethnic boundries, between different "we". Neither does duty.
22:21 July 15, 2011 by Englishted
Is this a private war or can anyone join in ?
13:52 July 19, 2011 by jostein
There was war but after we spent our ammunition we simply concluded we have somewhat different opinions and aired some of those. So id call it a public peace.
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