• Sweden's news in English

'Immigrants in Sweden are treated as a homogenous, deviant group'

The Local · 12 Sep 2011, 11:19

Published: 12 Sep 2011 11:19 GMT+02:00

Facebook Twitter Google+ reddit

Immigrants in Sweden do not belong to one ethnic linguistic group, nor religious or cultural entity. Despite this fact, many public authorities, politicians, intellectuals and statistical offices treat them as a homogeneous group with defined characteristics.

Some debaters, for instance, write about immigrant girls as a group of girls having a shared problem. Others define immigrant men as having an inherent inability to respect women. Those who define themselves as the bearers of the western values system occasionally imply that immigrants are essentially deficient in their understanding of modernity, western lifestyles or individual integrity.

Furthermore there are others who collectively define immigrants and give them a set of common attributes.

Looking at the issue from the perspective of a discourse analysis we can establish that immigrants in Sweden are transformed into “the others” - in political debates, discussions, articles, texts, pictures and in statistical data. “The others” as in those who are unlike the native Swedes.

Any divergent behaviour or conduct which doesn’t fit into existing Swedish social norms are lumped together and attributed to immigrants. Even when someone, who is himself not a native Swede, tries to display a positive aspect of these “the others”, he or she is unable to liberate him or herself from this framework.

The identity of the “the others”, immigrants, is established and within this framework all positive, negative and neutral notions on immigrants circulate. All conceptualizations of the immigrants take place inside within this. In accordance with the study of logic, it is illogical to reach a verified conclusion by false premises. In order to clarify my thinking, I am not trying here to discuss this issue with terminologies such as xenophobia, nationalism or racism.

The need to define “the others” in order to strengthen a group’s feeling of belonging is a well-known phenomenon and eminently written about within the field of social-anthropology. This is of course also not a uniquely Swedish mindset. What is however possibly unique in Sweden is the dividing line between inclusiveness and exclusiveness.

If you are a coloured person or speak Swedish with an accent it is enough for you to be included into the category of immigrant. It is not enough to be a Swedish citizen and speak Swedish fluently and to be a skilled professional within the state’s apparatus or in the government.

To exemplify I refer to two secretaries of state in the United States, namely Henry Kissinger and Madeleine Albright. It seems that the United States has another approach to the issue. In the US all citizens need to contribute with their competence in order to build the country. All are needed, regardless of the origin or speech articulation.

In the United States a black man with a Kenyan father became president.

The social patterns which are in practice here in Sweden impact not only those citizens born outside Sweden but also for the country as a whole. Citizenship in Sweden is apparently not defined by the law, it is a cultural issue. Swedishness lies in the sphere of mythology and in this sphere neither, logic, time, skill nor the value of equity are given scope. The result of this is social alienation, a development which is being fought by politicians.

Story continues below…

In my opinion, in view of this kind of inclusive/exclusive reasoning, immigrants remain immigrants forever, while the native Swedes inherit their Swedishness.

The almost comical debates prompted by the publication of data published by The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brå) regarding the higher representation of immigrants in certain crimes committed in Sweden, illustrate the pathetic nature of the attempts of some groups to create “the others” in Sweden.

Salam Zandi is a Swedish academic affiliated with Mälardalen University.

This article was originally published in Swedish on the Newsmill opinion website. English translation by Salam Zandi/The Local

Related links:

The Local (news@thelocal.se)

Facebook Twitter Google+ reddit

Your comments about this article

14:11 September 12, 2011 by securityguy
You reap what you sow.
14:13 September 12, 2011 by Addendum
I (and how many others) have been saying this exact same thing using the exact same language - DEVIANT. Only this article is too light regarding repurcussions of this otherness.

For example, I was left with untreated, chronic encephaltis in Sweden's medical dictatorship. Do you have any idea how fu*cked up it is to be left with untreated encephalitis and what hell this inflicts upon your body?!! I probably would NOT even be alive if I had not fled the country for help - after I was repeatedly denied help in Sweden's garbage Hell Care system. Medical Dicatorship!

While seeking treatments - among numerous arrogant, ignorant things - I was told that my symptoms were a manifestation of being stressed because I was an immigrant in Sweden. I was twice told that I would feel better if I had a baby. One doctor said western women worry too much about education and financial security and that I should think about how women in Africa have babies regardless of these things. It was written in my journal that my symptoms were manifested because I didn't speak good Swedish - this written by a doctor whom I had only ever spoken English with. And the arrogant, bigoted abusive list goes on...

Behavior that is non-Swedish is absolutely considered deviant behavior, and very often, the punishment is torture, kidnapping of children, and death conveniently called health care and social welfare. Someone wrote that Sweden's health care and social welfare agencies reminded them of Orwell's Ministry of Love...

The unchecked, rampant abuses in this system are horrific. How can anyone respect the Nobel Prize in Medicine when it comes from a society that is the very opposite of healing?! .

Very often, I feel like Sweden is what the world would look like had NAZIs won the war... Sweden most certainly is not what its government would have the world believe.
14:51 September 12, 2011 by burito
very good said (the post before...)
15:52 September 12, 2011 by rise
@ Addendum

I think you'd have a better use of that energi of yours if you were using it to read "Reporting malpractice or dissatisfaction in Health Care or Social Services" and filling in a complaint report:


"You are entitled to express your views and lodge a complaint if you are dissatisfied with the treatment you have received or with the work of the social services. Where the complaint should be made depends on what the complaint concerns."
16:54 September 12, 2011 by Migga
So when looking at the crime rates of immigrants it`s an illustration of the pathetic nature in the attempts of some groups to create "the others" in Sweden?

This guy is nuts. And so is Addendum for compairing Sweden and it`s Health Care system with Nazi Germany. Also burito for agreeing.
17:24 September 12, 2011 by rfmann
I agree with the characterization of Swedish majority view of foreigners, but I don't believe this is unique at all to Sweden. Just check out Swiss attitudes toward foreigners outside of Zurich or Geneva, or American views of their (half-) black president in the hick states.

I think the fact that Sweden is mostly a white-bread rural country that's about a generation or so away from being the utter armpit of the world explains their views of foreigners, especially foreigners that also *look* different in addition to being from somewhere else. Their is also a great deal of delusion about their own place in the world, but this, too, isn't really special to Sweden, just perhaps a little more funny considering the realities of this place.

It'll get better with time. I keep hoping.
17:30 September 12, 2011 by toshisan
To compare to the USA and make it sound better is insane. As a foreigner who has lived and worked in both countries Sweden wins hands down. In the USA you get no help as a foreigner unless you speak spanish and are from a central or south american country. Ja Sverige!
17:44 September 12, 2011 by rfmann
toshisan: I disagree with some of that. In CA, you can download the driver's handbook and pass the driving test in 9 different languages, including Korean, Armenian, Russian, and Tagalog. Government institutions make quite an effort to accommodate diverse habits and different languages. The impression that foreigners may not get as much assistance in the U.S. then they do in Sweden might perhaps be caused by the fact that people in general are not supported as much by the government there.

I think the notion that it's an immigrant's job to "assimilate" has much more currency here than it does in the U.S., also because it's much harder to define what that would mean in the U.S. What would a new immigrant assimilate to? Here people have a much clearer idea of what that means, and this seems to encourage them to demand assimilation from those they perceive as being insufficiently similar to themselves.
17:54 September 12, 2011 by Token-not-found
The author just put into eloquent and technical terms a little thing called "common sense"

Of course it's a racial thing.

America was build on multicultural principles, European Nation States were not.

Multiculturalism cannot work in EU, it also doesn't work even in the USA , the vast majority of minorities still live in ghettos.

It's sociologically proven that multiculturalism can not work, it corrodes social trust, lowers GDP in a given community, corrodes community cohesion , high crime rates and all that lovely stuff we see on the streets

Of course they are seen as others, it's human nature , they crassly violate cultural norms.

Hell, most white cultures would be considered foreign in Scandinavia, the nordic countries have very unique culture, beautiful cultures, worth preserving.

Just like the exotic cultures out in the amazon with are worth preserving, the Indian ones, the Chinese ones, the European ones.

Your ethnicity counts, not your nationality, that is common sense, nationality is only a piece of paper.

Because most non-whites bring with them non-western ways of life.

These cultures are incompatible with ours.

Why force them upon your citizens? What exactly is wrong with cultural homogeneity? It worked great so far, just look at our cultures and compare them with non-western ones...

Why strain ourselves to make reality a beautiful dream that i really a hellhole in reality, what is wrong with a homogenous society?

Do we really need other cultures to "enrich" our own in the form of female oppression , lack of freedom and free speech, lack of religious freedom and cultural fascism?

Freedom is a product of western civilization, people seem to forget that.
17:58 September 12, 2011 by lovedealer76
Well all i can say is if that's how they view immigrants,i'll say this we got an accessment of them also,sweden may got rich economy and good welfare system like most southern european countries but their homogeneous attitude is the most decadent thing that alienate immigrant the most.

I'm from cameroon and i believe a cameroonian doesn't have anything in common with an ethiopian or eritrean except that we're kind of black and from the same continent and i'll say this with proudness,when it comes to ethics,i strongly don't believe sweden got a better one than a cameroonian.

This just show how ignorant swedes are when it comes to immigrants,they keep observing us but they don't have a clue about us,maybe the eitreans/ethiopians are predictable but not a cameroon,we are very i mean very clever people,please go to my country and do a survey then you'll realise how clever and good ethics we've got ,for example how to bring up a child with respect to elders and which is the fundamental aspect of good behaviour.

So swedes please! go to cameroon and learn proper ethics,you guys make me lol
18:08 September 12, 2011 by swedejane
Well, he is right...immigrant shouldn't be used. Muslim immigrant should, to separate from the civilized immigrants from western countries.
18:08 September 12, 2011 by AnnicaE
The statics of crime rates of immigrants speak for itself.

I don't think it matters what swedish people do, if you're an immigrant and don't like it here, there's nothing that can change that. Most Swedes bend over backwards to make immigrants feel welcome, but you only have to have one bad experience and you make a judgment on the whole country and its people. I don't know if any of you have heard about the Jante Law? Do a bit of research.

We are swedes, living in Sweden, we speak Swedish and we have our traditions and our culture, but NO, we're not allowed, not to sing our national anthem and so on, because then we are nationalistic or fascists or even Nazis. Look at US, were they are proud of their country, and that's OK, no complains about that? You should take a good look at your own home countries before you get started on ours. In US they treat Mexicans as equals? And in UK they think it's great with all the Indians and Pakistanis? In Spain they absolutely adore the British that has occupied most of the coasts and refuse to learn Spanish or eat anything else but food from "home"? Think again.

The way people behave against immigrants do depend on education, social class and also willingness to interact. You can't force people to befriend all immigrants and also immigrants turn on each other. I have British friends here who don't like people from Asia.

As an answer to the person who was maltreated at a hospital: I work in a hospital, and we do a survey amongst the patients once a month to keep on our toes with quality and we have policies about treating everyone equal, and so far no complaints!

Your comments are not very balanced; do you think that Swedish people would stand bad quality in health care? The articles in papers about old people being treated badly in old people's home; it's terrible, but it's not in ALL old people's homes. As said above, by rise, you have the right, but also the duty to report if you've been maltreated.

I still don't understand why you think that we'd be treated much better in your countries, than you've been here? That if anything is a myth. As a blond, swedish woman I've got lot of examples where I've been verbally abused by men from all kind of countries, which all seem to think it's OK to refer to s*x (must use * since this might not get published otherwise). Prejudice, or what?

This is the second article following the family from Newcastle with their bad holiday experience, and a lot of comments from western immigrants are really racist against Swedes. Some people have lived here for up to 20 years and don't like it. I can understand if you're a refugee and don't have anywhere to go, but staying of free will when life is so short, and be so unhappy with life, I don't get that.
18:09 September 12, 2011 by Token-not-found

If what you say is true you have to know that you have to pay the price for the majority.

I'll use the high security prison inmate analogy.

None will offer a job to one from a high security prison, even if he is innocent, it's the stigma associated with it. The vast majority of inmate there are locked in for atrocious crimes, even if one is innocent he cannot avoid the stigma.

The stigma is right for the vast majority of them.

It's how the vast majority of immigrants from a certain culture acts, not one or two, if you are a decent person , then it's bad for you to stay there, you will be associated with the majority.
18:29 September 12, 2011 by AnnicaE
Token-not found: I like all the things you write, and agree.
18:54 September 12, 2011 by Frobobbles
So everyone in Sweden does this 'the other' thingie`? Salam Zandi can claim that and accuse others of overgeneralizations? What a guy.
18:55 September 12, 2011 by play nice
multi-ethnic might work but multi-culture is a death sentence
18:57 September 12, 2011 by cattie
Sooo all non-swedes are deviants due to their other-ness.

Sounds like non-swedes are infidels to Swedishness.
19:39 September 12, 2011 by Icarusty
As long as all nonwhite countries treat the white men entering their countries as inbred paedophiles, fair enough.
19:40 September 12, 2011 by Migga
@ AnnicaE

I share your views and you make good points.

@ Frobobbies

Yeah I hear you. Who are these "groups" that he is talking about and criticizing? These others if one should use his terms. BRÅ? The government? Swedes? Talk about a hypocrite. He is one of those that he himself doesn`t like. Perhaps he should make an article about himself next time.
19:57 September 12, 2011 by grymagnusson
Nowhere is the author (who is Swedish) saying that Swedes need to adapt to 'immigrant culture'.

He is instead simply making the point that Sweden's immigrants are culturally heterogenous (like Sweden herself) and this should be recognised before making broad generalisations about upwards of 15% of the population.

Recognising that the accepted definition of 'Swedish' is actually significantly broader than sometimes imagined would, contrary to some assertions here, help to further integration/assimilation or however you wish to describe the process.

It may also help all of us who live in Sweden to focus more on that which unites us instead of that which sets us apart.
20:50 September 12, 2011 by godnatt
If you want the truth, there are two groups.

Non-Muslims who integrate, appreciate Swedish values and become part of society, eventually becoming indistiguishable from regular Swedes. Same as most US immigrants.

And religious Muslims, who's repressive political ideology/religion is violently opposed to freedom, feminism, free speech, intellectualism, liberal secular democracy and everything that makes our civilization what it is.

One works. One does not.
20:54 September 12, 2011 by Icarusty

Like all good closet racists, you generously mix multi ethnicities with multiculturalism. You even get confused when you say that most non-whites are bringing along a different culture with them... puzzling, how does one born in the country bring a different culture with them?

I suppose you are the sort who also says that immigrants are fine as long as they integrate, willingly turning a blind eye to the fact that whites do not let them integrate - which by the way, is a subjective factor anyway - how does one judge if another has integrated? I'm sure someone who has opened a Polish shop, only talks to the Polish community in Polish has - on the surface - better integrated than a non-white who socialises with Swedes, speaks Swedish, is born in Sweden etc.
21:05 September 12, 2011 by Gamla Hälsingebock
The Swedes are very happy with each other.

The question is the posts by people from other places who are not happy in Sweden...Why did you go to Sweden???...of all places,...why Sweden???

Surely the horror of Swedish society is by now well known around the world...and yet you come and some do well and still complain...Why???
21:29 September 12, 2011 by Token-not-found

In Europe there is only one version that works : multi-ethnic (but western) , segregated , multiculturalism. It's in Switzerland.

That's it.

No other form of multiculturalism shows any signs of working, it only brings negative effects.

I'm also a wanna be nordic immigrant. My only purpose in life is to move to either Sweden or Norway . You know why? Because i WANT to be a part of that culture, because i LOVE that culture and people, also i am part nordic myself. Sadly i live in Eastern Europe and that dream is not gonna be reality anytime soon (or ever) because our living standards are very incompatible (aka i cannot live more then a few days in a nordic country with the money i survive here on)

Swarms of economic migrants or refuges that don't like the culture they are in are being pampered to in Nordic states, even when they show no incentive to integrate.

I mix multi-ethnic with multiculturalism because non-western immigrants have the biggest culture gap within western countries. A man from Guatemala is much more alien to German culture then a French man.

You want to talk about integration? It's easier for someone from Africa or the Middle east to come live in Sweden than for someone from Eastern Europe , and i'm speaking of EU member states.

The language learning system for example: how are you supposed, as a EU migrant to learn the language, at a professional level, when the courses are full time and last 1 year?

Who will sustain you for that year? Where will you live, how can you afford food?

For EU migrants the answer is no one/nothing (unless you have rich parents or a sugar daddy that is). For non-EU immigrants it's the state!

You get benefits and can afford to dedicate your time to integration, learning the language and the culture.

Who's really being discriminated here?

The country gives you the means, generous means.

What exactly is your point or question? You are being vague, using anecdotal data and "proof" with no foundation.

"I'm sure someone who has opened a Polish shop, only talks to the Polish community in Polish has - on the surface - better integrated than a non-white who socialises with Swedes, speaks Swedish, is born in Sweden etc. "

That's just bogus, a polish ghetto is still a ghetto, you are altering and reversing the meaning of integration. And as you said, it may look so on the surface because he could pass for a Brit or something,some of the the real issues here are social unrest , cultural tension and wasted taxpayer money, not petty things like the "image" that some people might have.
21:42 September 12, 2011 by Svensksmith
Misconceptions can easily be cleared up with cold, hard statistics....or not.
21:53 September 12, 2011 by Hawking
by Gamla Hälsingebock

The Swedes are very happy with each other.

Gamla, when you say Swedes are you thinking about ethnic Swedes by blood, or citizens of Sweden?
22:33 September 12, 2011 by eddie123
it is funny that this chap has written on this issue. just this past weekend, i was wondering why most Swedes have a condescending attitude towards immigrants and tend to treat all immigrants as a homogeneous group lacking in good swedish values. the answer hit me and it hit me hard. there is no free meal in europe, amongst europeans. you have to work and earn a living. friends rarely buy friends drinks or food. notice how all Swedes resort to all man for himself, God for all? then, their government decides to do the politically correct thing by opening their borders and allowing thousands of refugees and asylum seekers to come in. the bulk pend on state hand outs thus causing tax hikes on working Swedes who naturally will rarely buy a friend a cup of coffee. why won't such self centered people hate immigrants who depend on their taxes to survive? now, Swedes fail to make a distinction (and it's a difficult distinction to make) between refugees/asylum seekers and working immigrants (professionals and students). they look at non swedish speaking people as pests and they treat you just as that. i am an immigrant, i live and work here and i pay my fair share of taxes just as any swede does. it is only fair that i'm not judged by the colored of my skin nor lumped into a category of citizens who are comfortable living on hand outs. and when it comes to values and manners, most of the non-refugee immigrants are better off than most swedes. that's a fact.
22:37 September 12, 2011 by Hawking
There's a little girl that lives across the street from me. If she was walking around downtown Manila everyone would assume she lives there. She was born and raised in Sweden.

Is she Swedish?
00:19 September 13, 2011 by Tysknaden
Swedish norms are dominant in Sweden. Looks pretty normal to me. Everything else would be sick and crazy.
00:42 September 13, 2011 by rls976
For all of its long history before the post-World War II immigration began, being Swedish was a matter of race, language, culture and history. This was not contrived or deliberate. It was not a design of evil "racists". It was natural. To expect Swedes to act as if an Arab or a negro or anything else non-Western is Swedish is absurd and a gross imposition. A people are what they are, and nature has created profound differences between different peoples. Yet the white peoples everywhere are expected to let their nations be transformed by the ceaseless coming of alien peoples, while the nonwhite lands those newcomers came from are not forced to undergo any such racial transformation.

Ever heard of the United Nations Charter For The Rights of Indigenous Peoples? Read it and you will see that the nonwhite immigrants in Europe, and their offspring, are illegal colonizers, violating the rights of the indigenous peoples of Europe. The European governments that are importing the nonwhites are violating the rights of the indigenous peoples within their countries. As for those ethnic Swedes who want the nonwhite non-Swedes in Sweden, they do not have the right to force this on ethnic Swedes who do not want this done to their ancestral homeland. Those Swedes who want to live in a nonwhite mileau ought to be applying to the government of a country of their choice in Asia, Africa, Latin America or the Carribean for admittance, rather than violating the rights of indigenous Swedes who do not want a nonwhite world in Sweden.
00:51 September 13, 2011 by Roy E

From the way you ask your question, it sounds like she is not Swedish, but she could possibly be a Swedish citizen.

BTW, such sophomoric attempts at being clever only serve to make you look foolish.
01:18 September 13, 2011 by hughknows
There is something of an 'immigrant' bloc in Sweden, and it certainly has a level of homogeneity. There is some integration and variance among immigrants, but you can see the not-so-integrated minorities, who come from a hundred different countries, and yet mostly from the same handful, and the separation in culture that exists. Any Swede or immigrant living in Stockholm can tell you about the broadly different characteristics of say, the suburbs lining the stops along the blue subway line vs. most of the red and green. Of course there are exceptions to such generalisations and the term 'deviant' is too pejorative. It is largely Sweden's fault the situation is as negative as it is for immigrant communities i.e. the many 'ghettos' in Sweden. A good article tracking the situation was published in the New York Times in 2006 -


Sweden has largely followed the same trajectory since then, and now there are grievances on both sides. What is the solution? - hard to say. Perhaps better managed and yes, slowed immigration, a culture where the hosts actually employ and accept immigrants, and more demands and opportunities to fully integrate...
01:32 September 13, 2011 by Hawking
@Roy E

I was looking for an honest answer and I got one from rls976.

Not so sophomoric after all, eh.
02:17 September 13, 2011 by Svensksmith
America brought in a mass of immigrants in the 18th and 19th century. How has that worked out for the natives?
02:30 September 13, 2011 by Roy E

Sorry, but only those who are lost in a fog of relativism could be confounded by your scenario. It really is quite simple. rls976 is merely stating the obvious.

Which calls to mind a George Orwell quote that seems is appropriate:

'We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.'
03:23 September 13, 2011 by Not Dumb
As someone who emigrated to Sweden a number of years ago, my own experience suggests that the author is in many ways quite right when he speaks of immigrants being lumped together as an outgroup, assigned certain typically unflattering labels simply because of their foreign origins. What he doesn't say is that historically the function of 'the other' in times of societal stress is that of 'scapegoat'.

With massive tax cuts and corporate welfare having eviscerated much of what had been the funding that drove Sweden's once great social system (now too increasingly eviscerated), and meaningfully discussing how such neoliberal policy is responsible for much of Sweden's pain not being a realistic possibility as yet, the discontent that many native born Swedes rightfully feel with current shortcomings must be (mis)directed somewhere...voilà, immigrants. So yes, we immigrants are 'the other', and in so being now none that are native born need blame themselves for present problems, there's us -- just ask the Sverige Demokrats.

Having said all this, I'll add that denial and prejudice are terrible things, especially as denying facts will not change them. However, denying decent people what is essentially a recognition of their very humanity, doesn't usually improve their outlook towards those responsible, and just maybe aids in maintaining segregation. But naturally, if one is seeking a long-term 'other', then discriminatory conduct does seem perfect for perpetuating exactly that.

On the other hand, there's always the possibility of treating every individual with a certain modicum of respect and common decency, and is there really a problem that anyone should have with that? No one in this country is perfect, but while celebrating our shortcomings won't help any of us very much, making the effort to genuinely share what is good within each of us just might…
05:01 September 13, 2011 by jl1995
As a swede, I am having my identity stolen by immigrants. My culture and heritage is being held hostage. In a hundred years, when we all look the same in the world because of multiculturalism and immigration, there will no longer be a diversity of cultures.

How will I identify myself? The traditional tall, blond, blue eyed, stoic and quiet culture will be gone.

If I were a white living in Africa, could I call myself an African? Would black Africans take offense because I am assuming a culture and "integrating" myself? If I started to participate in native dances, hunts, dress and language, would that make me an African? I don't think so, and I think it is demeaning and diminishes the sacredness of unique cultures.

It is only fair that immigrant swedes will never be considered swedish. They are stealing my identity. They should likewise keep theirs and not integrate and preserve unique cultures. If I want to experience a traditional culture or multiculturalism, I can easily hop on a plane and experience the real thing.
08:00 September 13, 2011 by rfmann
@jl1995 "As a swede, I am having my identity stolen by immigrants." LOL Seriously? They take your identity away from you? Wow!

You need to get out more. There are plenty of 'white' people who call themselves African, because that is what they are. There is nothing 'sacred' about cultures, they simply are what the folks living together in an area make of them. The fact that folks believing to be in the majority, or occasionally just 'superior', define their habits and idiosyncrasies to be the 'norm' is hardly new nor particularly Swedish. Of course, a tiny Western country with the population of a major city doing this in the 21st century is kinda strange, but they'll get over it.

Speaking of getting over silly thought patterns: If you feel that you need to point to a larger group of racially and behaviorally similar people to "have" an identity, one that goes away or even gets 'stolen' if that group somehow shifts or isn't recognizable for you anymore,, you do have quite a bit of work on your personality ahead of you. Good luck with that.
08:23 September 13, 2011 by J Jack
It's a reputation that they earned, It wasn't just made up by xenophobic blond people. Very sad for honest tax paying anti mafioso re-patriots that just want to get on with life. It's hard enough recovering from re-location, let alone being labeled as a deviant.
09:31 September 13, 2011 by 15U
I like Swedish culture, values. But at the same time we live in new times - intermarriages, experiments, new ethnicities - all these things are great!!

The Culture is evolving phenomenon, Swedish culture was not the same all years before. Why should we talk about it conservation now?
10:07 September 13, 2011 by hatim

being tall, blonde and blue eyed is not a culture (in my opinion). Or I guess it is a fact (you judge)

In my opinion Swedish culture which has evolved in the last forty fifty years or so is of : peace, tolerance, justice, equality. These are the things which ought to be preserved. And these are not just Swedish values, these are human values (and in lots of these things Sweden is doing quite well and I should strive to continue doing well). But just by being Swedish you are not assigned to be the sole custodian of these values (no matter how good you are)

I think the biggest problem which Swedish society has is this notion of elitism, and this growing concept of "us vs them". More and More wannabes and pretentious pricks. Was this present 40 years ago?

Islam is going through it's dark ages. Europe went through its dark age as well and i think it turned out ok in the end. if in Viking years ago I was put in a situation to judge people living in modern day Sweden, I would also conclude that they would be a savage nation without any hope.

So what I would do is to have faith in humanity and help in creating dialogue. There are so many brilliant people in this small country which amazes me at times. And being Swede you should be proud of what has been accomplished and vow to take it beyond (not shove it in a ditch of hate based on us vs them for the lack of better word)
10:23 September 13, 2011 by rfmann
I think all these references to Muslims in the discussion around immigration are the result of lazy and sloppy thinking. An immigrant is someone who comes here from somewhere else, a Muslim is someone with a particular belief. Just because many immigrants happen to be Muslims the two things are still separate issues. For instance, what if a blond, blue-eyed Swede converts to Islam? Does that mean he is no longer Swedish? Is it somehow unethical for him to convert to Islam? Is it somehow a bad thing? And if not, should we not look at immigration issues without confounding them all the time with religion and other lifestyle choices?

This whole 'Swedish culture' debate is a joke --- many folks whose families have lived here for a long time choose to live their lives in a way that is likely to meet with disapproval by the 'mainstream' culture. Does that mean that the mainstream culture and the people who think they are part of it get to define what 'Swedish' means? Or does 'Swedish' encompass all legal ways of conducting one's life in this country, and if so, is it still okay to reject others just based on the color of the skin or the country they happened to been born in? Seriously, folks, join the 21st century.
11:23 September 13, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ rise #4

Are you kidding me? There have been over 3,000 complaints of medical malpractice since 2007 lodged to the Swedish "Sociallyrestin" and not 1 investigated. Not one! In case you math is bad, that is 0% investigated. 3,000 people took your advice and what good did that do them NONE.

Fill out a malpractice report....what a joke!

Why doesn't "Addendum" just go outside and bang their head against a brick wall instead? They will still end up with the same result. One HUGE headache, but at least they might attract enough attention that SOMEONE; SOMEWHERE might actually listen. But I can guarantee you, it won't be the Swedish "Sociallyrestin".
13:30 September 13, 2011 by Hawking
@Roy E post#36 "Sorry, but only those who are lost in a fog of relativism could be confounded by your scenario. It really is quite simple. rls976 is merely stating the obvious." post#31

Now this is hilarious. You seem to have taken my statements as an attempt at some deep philosophical comment meant to confound the relativist masses. That, or you missed the fact that the questions were rhetorical.

As you say, It is really quite simple.

They were meant to see if you and your simpleton, morally stunted, throwback band of brothers would come here and state what you were really thinking for all to see. Seems to have worked.

Seeing as how you believe that, "rls976 is merely stating the obvious", I'll bet you consider yourself as one of the "...intelligent men" in Orwell's quote as well.

Well, as someone else said above, Good luck with that.

Alright, enough of that, gotta watch the bloodpressure :-). IMHO I think Sweden is at least a generation behind the rest of the Western world in regards to seeing "others" as human beings, same as them. They'll get there though, in their own time. The skin, hair, and eyes might be different and the religious and/or pagan dogma might be different, but in our hearts we all want the same basic things. Food, shelter, possibly family, and the ability to experience the world in a way we find enjoyable, before we die.

It really is quite simple and I guess I'm just stating the obvious. :-)
13:40 September 13, 2011 by godnatt
@ Token-not-found

Move to Somalia, become a pirate, pretend to be illiterate and have NO skills and then we'll give you a visa and set you up with a lifelong pension so you NEVER have to work again.

As a matter of fact your WHOLE family can come join you while we're at it.

Welcome to Sweden!

Oh, what's that you say? You're an educated Westerner? Never mind. We don't want you.
14:59 September 13, 2011 by Not Dumb

I guess I won't point out that in Moberg's 'Din stund på jorden' (A time on earth), he laments Sweden's 'Americanization', and the work was published in 1963. When you speak of 'Swedish culture', you do so as if it is some static thing, something without an effective life of its own, something not long constantly growing and changing, I won't point out that the 'Valloner' also changed the culture here quite a few centuries ago, nor many others both before or since, least of all mentioning the period of Christian missionaries beginning prior to the end of the first millenia.

Is it really a changing culture that so many feel discomfort with today, or is it that the recent changes here have been negatively associated with Immigration by too many, the effective upshot being blaming immigrants for the neoliberal policy failures that others see as indeed the genuine threat to 'Swedish life'? Is it possible that this idea of a 'sacred Nordic culture' is one which the far right wishes to ride into increasing power, it having gained traction as blaming immigration offers a simplistic answer to what is truly a complex problem, a problem that includes neoliberal policy, corruption; and, changing political, societal, economic, and personal values?

Is it possible that by focusing negatively on immigrants, too many cannot see the impact which a long string of policy changes have meant, the redistribution of society's assets from the bottom to the top which is causing so much pain and upheaval? But then again, isn't 'scapegoating' used to hide such very things?
15:13 September 13, 2011 by prince T
No dumb.

I think u have a point here. Sweden is becoming american. Swedish people swear and speak english like americans. American films have taken over our TVs. I wish m@migga can pulish the crime rates of immigrants.
15:47 September 13, 2011 by chapora
Reading most of the above comments is actually more revealing than the article itself. There seems to be a lot of zenophobic or closet racists foolishly defending a fantasy that is Sweden or Camaroon for that matter. The Swedes themselves are immigrants that chanced upon a land that was once a area inhabited by the Sami. This nonsense about blond hair and blue eyes as being a Swedish thing is utter crud.This thing about people speaking Swedish is also crud it is in fact a dialect of Scandinavia. If you wish to cling to the Swedish language thing then which Swedish language do you speak? Southern or Northern or Middle or old ancient stuff which some one once said was now only spoken in Gotland???? Rubbish. As to the We must keep all those precious Swedish values. What values? Socialism? Paganism viz midsommar? Jantelagen (social jealousy)? Intrusive near Owellian style governace? Excessive alchol dependance? Chewing on Tobacco? Eating rotten fish? Social ineptitude? The list goes on here as it does in all countries that utilise nationalism as a means of control by the few over the many. I guess we should also include zenophobia if prince T, m@migga etc are to be seen as representatives of Swedish values.
16:17 September 13, 2011 by Migga
@ prince T


This is a 6 years old survey. There probably won`t be a new one coming out soon.


If you scroll down you find a link where you can open it as a pdf file. From page 70 and onwards it`s a short summery in english. Immigrants, who are born abroad or have one parent born abroad, has a 2.5 over-representation when it comes to crime.

That number rises if you remove women, law abiding people from far east Asia and the West. It`s not looking good for men from the Middle East and North Africa.
17:20 September 13, 2011 by Not Dumb
First immigrants are accused of taking all the social welfare assets from those native born, then immigrants are accused of essentially 'polluting the pure Nordic culture', and now immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East are accused of fomenting a crime wave. Wow, it's amazing Sweden is still here with all these 'immigrant threats' it faces.

But, just some months ago, did not a Sverige Demokrat accuse those from the Middle East of actually having 'a gene which makes them more violent'? And again, while all this 'immigrant bashing' is ongoing, is anyone examining the 'tax cuts, corporate welfare, and so-called reforms' which have been responsible for the evisceration of living standards that is the real problem many Swedes (native born and immigrant both) face?

While the rich are getting richer, the ongoing redistribution of societal assets to them via 'tax reform and reform of labor and business laws' just might be worth a look, at least if the idea is to address societal problems rather than cynically use them as a nasty tool for achieving far right political power.
17:33 September 13, 2011 by Migga
@ chapora

You mean xenophobic and xenophobia right? Well I don`t suffer from xenophobia so I`m not xenophobic. Nor am I racist. I don`t grade people according to their race. We all belong to the human race.

We are all the same but we all live differently. And that difference depends on where and with who we grep up with. Our background. Our etnicity. Our culture. Our history. Our religion. Our family. Our society. Our social structures. Our economy. Our education.

But not race.

But since we live differently we should investigate what it is that makes some turn to crime when arriving to a place were people live differently from yourself. And that`s something that will happend more and more since the world is getting smaller. So it`s important work.
17:51 September 13, 2011 by Token-not-found
@Not Dumb (#51)

"First immigrants are accused of taking all the social welfare assets from those native born, then immigrants are accused of essentially 'polluting the pure Nordic culture', and now immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East are accused of fomenting a crime wave. Wow, it's amazing Sweden is still here with all these 'immigrant threats' it faces."

Are you denying those things?

"While the rich are getting richer, the ongoing redistribution of societal assets to them via 'tax reform and reform of labor and business laws' just might be worth a look, at least if the idea is to address societal problems rather than cynically use them as a nasty tool for achieving far right political power. "

Yes, you need to keep a close eye on those things, but why at the cost of falsely denying the others?

I usually don't engage in discussion with multicultural fundamentalists such as yourself, because none has anything to gain, i speak in vain and you cling to your convictions in a religious way, not leaving any room for logic or rational arguments, you can't be swayed no matter what or convinced by proof , you are indoctrinated.

But when you aggressively spew them to others you need to be confronted , for the sake of not brainwashing others.

Again , trying to find a "scapegoat" to the "scapegoat" through corporate wrongdoings and inept politicians?

Those are two separate things : immigrants actually do those things, and the political medium does those things. Don't try to make a scapegoat for immigrants by using the first.
18:21 September 13, 2011 by rls976
Do you notice all the comments to this article? Think of all the time countless numbers of readers spent reading it. Do you notice, therefore, all the time and energy being devoted to this issue of integrating foreigners into an alien host society? What if none of this time and energy were being devoted to this issue, by individuals, by private-sector aid organizations, by private-sector businesses, and by governments at all levels (for example, police and fire personnel in Malmo figuring out how to do their jobs in Rosengard without being killed or injured in an attack)? The answer is that the time and energy would be devoted to other pursuits - both leisure and productive.

Because Japan has had the wisdom to remain Japanese (no immigration) it is not distracted from worthwhile pursuits by having to endlessly think about and deal with the consequences of having become a "multicultural" society. But then Japan, unlike the white nations, has not been beset by homegrown radical leftists who wish for the indigenous race to gradually disappear from the face of the earth.
18:54 September 13, 2011 by prince T

This is good idea. I suddenly wish we will also remove foreign doctors, engineers and dont get involved in other people's problem like Libya.
19:30 September 13, 2011 by Token-not-found

Exactly , why even bother with such a problematic issue? What exactly is wrong with homogeneity?

Instead of mass immigration , the government could offer initiatives for native people to have more children. (the big old population/ small active population , labor shortage and need for it argument)

And for the short term labor shortage (until the "baby boom" kicks in) they could bring in cheap labor from Eastern Europe, immigrants that offer the same cheap labor but are much more easier to integrate thanks to a bigger cultural affinity.

Aside from the liberal purpose of diversity, a more pragmatical and cynical one exists: votes.

Immigrants will vote for the ones that facilitated their arrival. The smaller the country, the bigger the effect, until natives votes are getting easier to counter-vote.

The other , more probable thing to happen is the rise of the far-right. A thing that already started happening in Europe , in countries like Denmark and The Netherlands.
19:35 September 13, 2011 by skatty
I agree with the writer; but, I don't think it really makes much difference to explain and clarify the situation of immigrants and the immigration norms in Sweden.

Personally, I think even the use of the word "immigrant" in general is a misguiding policy in Sweden, what about to see immigrant as a homogenous deviant group!

Now; tell me for instance, how many percent of the resent immigrant in the last 30 years have filled an application form to immigrate to Sweden! How many of these people would really immigrate to Sweden, if there wasn't something like war, or some other kinds of miseries in their countries?

I think many have chosen Sweden as a country for residency under some kind of particular and intolerable circumstances in their own countries; otherwise, immigration in the way that one would consider a country to send an application to live, has not been widely used in recent decades in Sweden!

The best way is to accept the life circumstances in Sweden, no because of the rightness of the circumstances, but for the reason that "bad" is better than "worse" after all (at least during a time to find a better solution, like leaving Sweden, if one can manage it)!
19:46 September 13, 2011 by rls976
Regarding the immigration, the worst effect of all - if the immigration is not reversed and undone - is the destruction of our race by low birthrate and by it being dissolved into immigrant races, as interbreeding increases generation-by-generation. But in the meantime, how silly - what folly: The white indigenous people expend massive amounts of time and energy tied up in knots over all the issues raised by the presence of the foreign races. "What is a Swede?" "Native Swedes treat immigrants differently! How wrong!" "Should we have racial quotas?" "How do we police in such a way as to not offend Muslims, and thus provoke a violent reaction?" "Shouldn't we avoid talking about exorbitant rates of crime by negroes and Muslims, in order to avoid offending?" "Lets design our classroom teaching of history to avoid offending Muslims." "Maybe we should serve halal meat in the cafeteria, to be inclusive." "Isn't a pygmy, standing in front of Kiruna City Hall, holding a Swedish passport, just as Swedish as a blond, blue-eyed individual whose family line has lived in Sweden for more than a thousand years?" God what foolishness! What insanity! God what a waste! How much better to have avoided all this trouble by simply not ever having imported these foreign races in the first place! Like Japan! And speaking of avoiding trouble, there is the matter of rape. Are you aware that the Oslo (Norway) Police Department issued a report stating that, during calendar year 2010, all reported rapes were committed by nonwhites? ALL. And guess what ethnicity the overwhelming majority of their victims were. They were white, Nordic - indigenous. Has the importation of foreign races into Norway been beneficial for those women and girls? As far as the left is concerned, criminal victimization is a pain that the indigenous white people will simply have to adapt to and endure, because the left is utterly determined to transform our white societies into something unrecognizable to past generations, and nonwhite immigration is their tool for doing it. These leftist western governments must be overthrown. Their survival, and the survival of the white race, are mutually exclusive.
21:33 September 13, 2011 by chrino
....................well just to wrap up then........as an irish person moving to sweden what I am going to do then is to sing the national anthem for sverige every morning in my underpants in the front garden for fun, everybody welcome , even 'the others' from the island on LOST............why cant we all just have a laugh together ;-)
22:50 September 13, 2011 by efm
The absurd opinions are those coming from the Swedes who kept on defending their Swedishness or ignoring that blatant racism do exist. and it is wrong. The Swedish culture is just a different flavor from any other, not good, not better or superior-just a little different.

I believe a part of this nativistic thinking lies on insecurity, greed, using

exclusiveness to derail or marginalize recent immigrants. It's like these folks are goingto steal our jobs, our culture, our women, and transform this country to be theirs! They are not like us, thus, the best way to exclude them is to brand them all as deviants!

There's a big hypocrasy in place. Swedes don't mind foreigners driving cabs, cleaning their offices, and other menial labor, but as a group, they're deviants and does not deserve the respect due to a human being!
23:49 September 13, 2011 by rls976
They deserve the respect of a human being, but they do not deserve to be in Sweden.
01:49 September 14, 2011 by efm
ris976: How counterintuitive!

Here's an opinion:

Citizen of any country fail to understand that in any society, there will be the high class, middle class and lower class of people( by income and trade). I would venture to say that prob. most Swedes are in the so called "middle" class which is pretty comfortable by any standards. They are happy to be there, and a few aspire to be in the upper class. However, just like in any place, there is a lower class! These are not bad folks, they just happen to be there and majority of them serve to make the middle and upper class people's life as happy and convinient. Unfortunately, as an immigrant, most of them start out in the lower class, and this is where the hypocrasy shows it's ugliness. Folks belittle and marginalize them but they serve a useful(most) purpose in society. OK a few

immigrants are actually middle class or have the education and trade to be one.

If they are not allowed to prosper to move on because of bigotry and prejudice, Sweden actually lost in the end. The regular insular Swede may be protecting his turf, but if the talents and potentials of people are not realized, the country loses inthe end. Who says Swedish local have t he monopoly for talents, skill and drive?
01:55 September 14, 2011 by Not Dumb
@rls976 and your comment #58

Excuse me, but according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, Xenophobia is defined as: "fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign". They define Racism as: "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race ".

The fact that it seems too many here feel free to openly express sentiments that reflect either one or both of the above definitions makes quite a comment, and one that sadly proves the point regarding what many see as nightmarishly inappropriate perceptions of immigrants. What's worse, I expect there are those that will take pride in that.

I believe I am witnessing written testimonials to the changed nature of Sweden.
03:44 September 14, 2011 by ericrufinosiah
I certainly and whole heartely agreed with the comments of " godnatt Sept.12 "

and do hope that all natives Swedish be alert and be aware of their future and just

don't be so naive as to only have good views of certain type of immigrant.
07:25 September 14, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ rls976

Post #61

You are totally right. We do not deserve to be in Sweden. We deserve to be in a country where we are accepted as new citizens with worth, value, and recognised as individuals with talents to offer Sweden. We deserve to be seen as individuals. Sure there are bad immigrants, one would have to be very naieve to think otherwise. But don't kid yourself, there are bad Swedes too.

Yes, we immigrants do not deserve to be in Sweden. Those of us who are criminals deserve to be in prision. Those of us who are good, hard working citizens deserve to be in a place that treats us a whole lot better. And that sure is not Sweden. Read the posts on here by Swedes.
11:12 September 14, 2011 by Robbie619
As a latino born and raised in America it's crazy to see all this racism from swedes. I thought you guys were progressive lol We got racism too but not to the extent where it stops people from being successful, our president is black. We have plenty of blacks and latinos and asians in government positions and running businesses. Someone earlier commented that you have to utilize everyone's potential. You guys obviously don't that's why hardly anything ever comes out of sweden. I can only think of IKEA. Our military is made up of all races and they are excellent at their position. A comedian once made a joke that we have the best military because we got asians manning the high tech weapons, arabs that can make bombs out of anything, tough as hell mexicans in the infantry, blacks that will mess anybody up, and whites giving orders. I don't remember the exact joke but it went something like that. I served 5 years in the US Marines and a lot of that is true, which might be racist but we are using people's strengths.
12:11 September 14, 2011 by godnatt
@ Robbie619

Apples and oranges.

There are big differences between immigration in the US (Asian, Latino) who love America and dream of being Americans...

...and Sweden (Middle East, N. Africa immigrants) who have a stone age anti-freedom, misogynistic, violent conservative belief system that despises our culture.

Just read the terrorist sympathizing, Western hating posts of these wonderful people all over these boards.

Also, you are clearly ignorant. "...that's why hardly anything ever comes out of sweden."

Sweden is per capita one of the most advanced high tech economies in the world. 9m people and they make fighter jets. Not to mention, Skype, Spotify, etc... the list goes on.

From one American to another... Stop sounding like a stupid American.
13:51 September 14, 2011 by Hawking
"European nationalism has always had a deeper engine than simply love of one's own. It is also rooted in resentment of others. .... We are very early in the process of accumulating grievances and remembering how to hate, but we have entered the process."

15:20 September 14, 2011 by Migga
@ Not Dumb

Well if you see it that way I feel sorry for you. You see something that isn`t there. In my comments I`m not fearful or hateful against anything that is strange or foreign. In my comments I also don`t belive that race is the primary determinant of human traits or that there is a superior race.

But I guess you see what it is what you wanna see. You label people with different opinions and try to get the upperhand by calling them something horrid like a racist. Well I'm not fazed by your accusations because I know who and what I am. I should be able to comment on any issue, however I want, without being labeled.
15:35 September 14, 2011 by Scansson
Sweden is becoming a 'Third-World-Country" every day. No Thanks to the current politicians holding office of course.
15:53 September 14, 2011 by Addendum
My SFI class included people from at least 20 different countries. Many were in Sweden because they had married "tall, blue-eyed" Swedes. Many were highly educated and experienced professionals. Our instructor arranged for someone from Arbetsförmedling to speak to our class, and this person told our class that it was important for us to learn to speak Swedish so we would know whether a cleaning solution was to be used on windows or on the floor. A substitute teacher also told us how important it was to work as a custodian (janitor, maid, etc.), and that this is a very important job. Fine. But this was the ONLY job that was emphasized for everyone. It was actually quite shocking and in my opinion, extremely backward.

In my opinion, the state suffocates the human spirit. It's like the state has an obsessive-compulsive-personality-disorder need to control, catalogue, and arrange all of life into a state-dictated hierarchy. Society is like some shrub that has to be trained and pruned to grow in a very "imagined" precise manner. People and ideas which do not conform to the prescribed shape have to be pruned away or bent into the approved societal framework. In my opinion, this means everyone gets screwed.

And by the way, regarding my earlier post - the Socialstyreslen, thus far, has said: If you don't like it, leave Sweden. I, long again, got over the allusion that this system cares about and values human life of any origin. I am always thankful for the many kind, generous Swedish people I've met. But the system - the state - and its minions are heartless and cruel. Medical Dictatorship. … And now, day-care children punch a state-recorded clock?? Homeschooling has been outlawed, with permanent state-seizures of children. And to my understanding, it's been proposed that it be compulsory for children to attend dagis, beginning at 18 months of age. Totalitarian state.
16:15 September 14, 2011 by Robbie619
@ godnatt

I know they are a 1st world country and I loved visiting Stockholm and I can't say enough about how fun swedish women are. My problem with swedes is that they think everything is superior there and they consider themselves to be progressive but when it comes to immigrants they clearly show they aren't all that progressive. Their mentality isn't that much different from the slave owners that brought blacks to America.

So what if Sweden makes fighter jets, so do many countries. I'm pretty sure the US companies make the best ones since we are constantly at war. What's next, swedes make sandwiches also? lol j/k
17:00 September 14, 2011 by efm
Agree with Robbies619/

The Swede mentality is similar to the slave owners that brought the slaves to America! They're behind by about 150 yrs.

Although Sweden makes some stuff, planes, cars etcs, I would say America makes better stuff. My friend drove a Saab w/c is always in the shop, another friend drives a Ford F150 pickup with almost 200K miles on it and is going strong.

I'll put a F18 Hornet against any Swede fighter plane anytime.

I'll put a Boeing Jet agaainst any Airbus anytime.

YOu can tell I'm American.
17:07 September 14, 2011 by jl1995
These multiculturalists probably consider multiculturalism as visiting their local (insert country-of-origin) restaurant or saying "hello" in spanish. What a bunch of fakes. Seriously, if the world continues on this course, there will be a complete blending of cultures adopted various aspects of the worlds culture. Just as the Native Americans are attempting to preserve their culture and language, so too must the worlds' cultures such as Sweden and European countries. The only place the experiment should occur should be the US which is based on multiculturalism. The Japanese are a homogenous country and that is the way it should be. I don't want to visit Japan and and not experience traditional Japanese culture. If I go and eat at a Japanese restaurant, I don't want to see Hispanics cooking in the kitchen and my waitress to be a white person dressed in a kimono.

To those that complain about lousy swedish food, the aloof nature of Swedes, etc.... then travel back to your own country or visit a country with great food and friendly people. Or visit America to experience genuine Swedish culture.
17:21 September 14, 2011 by godnatt
@ Robbie619

Okay, I'll dumb it down for you. America is the world's super power with 320m people. Sweden is a tiny backwater with 9m people.

PER CAPITA, Sweden is remarkably advanced. There isn't really an equal in terms of high tech output in the world from an economy THIS size. Simple enough for you?

Regarding immigration Sweden has been more generous and progressive than any country in the world, providing ample money, education, family-unification, free health care...EVERYTHING. More than the US has dreamed of doing.

And in return, UNLIKE US immigrants, they've received a mob of people indoctrinated with a violent hateful religion that despises Western values, education and freedom who have no intention of integrating and view their hosts as shills to con and exploit.

People here are simply waking up.

This is not America. Stop taking about things about which you have no perspective.

You really ARE the stereotypical stupid American.
18:04 September 14, 2011 by rls976
@jacquelinee, regarding post #65

As I asked in an earlier comment: Have you ever heard of (or read) the United Nations Charter For The Rights Of Indigenous Peoples? I have read it. Read it and you will see that the post World War II nonwhite immigrants in Europe, and their offspring, are illegal colonizers, violating the rights of the indigenous peoples of Europe by being there. The European governments that are importing the nonwhites are violating the rights of the indigenous peoples within their countries by importing the nonwhites. What if some Swedes love their race and culture and do not hate other races, but want theirs to continue, undiluted? The UN Charter states that it is a violation of the Charter (to which the Swedish government is a signatory) to force them to accept immigration of non-Swedish peoples. You are, according to the UN, an illegal colonizer. You have no right to be in Sweden.

And, for the apostles of 'diversity', doesn't preserving races and cultures, undiluted, preserve global 'diversity'?
18:46 September 14, 2011 by Hawking

Regarding this UN charter, I didn't even get half way through page 2 and found this.

"Affirming further that all doctrines, policies and practices based on

or advocating superiority of peoples or individuals on the basis of

national origin or racial, religious, ethnic or cultural differences are

racist, scientifically false, legally invalid, morally condemnable and

socially unjust"

So how do you justify your white/nonwhite argument?
20:44 September 14, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ rls976 (thanks for your post Hawking)

You can quote what ever man made scrappit of paper you want. Until you show me a document signed by God/the creator/ the designer of cosmic law/designer of the "BigBang or Evolution, or whatever else you choose to believe that says you and your little remnant from barbarism have the exclusive rights to this little chunk of rock that at this moment in eternity is called Sweden, I'll prefer to look at it on the grand scale of things.

While I am here on this earth, as long as I am it's defender, protector, caregiver, law keeper and respector of other humans who share their life with me during this moment in time, I can live wherever I choose. You are a narrow minded, rather uninsightful, small individual if you actually believe you have any claim to anything on this earth....even your own life. You are just here on loan and will have to give some kind of account of your time here somewhere else in the grand scheme of things. Tread carefully...you are stepping on WAY bigger toes than mine.
22:16 September 14, 2011 by rls976

I justify it by noting that, according to that document, the white, ethnically Nordic/Germanic people of Sweden explicitly qualify as the indigenous people of that land. You erroneously equate the intent of that charter, when I cite it for the cause of protecting the Swedish indigenous people, with a superiority complex. Or could it be that radical leftists intend that that charter be only for the protection of nonwhite indigenous peoples, and not whites? Have you seen anything in my comments stating a superiority of any race? No you haven't. And it shows the weakness of your position on this matter that you feel it necessary to falsely create that impression about me so you can then have something that is easy to go on the offensive against. You can't beat me, so you create a straw man and then say "Look! Thats rls976!" and proceed to beat IT to death.


You seem not believe in any rule of law, referring to such contemptuously as "scrappit of paper". ("Scrappit"?) I thus have to wonder whether you are much over ten years of age, to exhibit so little experience/understanding of humanity as to believe that a society can simply dispense with laws made by men - laws designed to protect the innocent. For your information, we have to have laws, and not just laws purportedly handed down from God, but laws passed by a duly-constituted human authority. Without them there is chaos, which begets a tyranny. I suspect that you are not opposed to enforcement of all man-made laws. Almost no one is. (Let someone violate your lawful rights badly enough and you WILL call upon the law-enforcement authorities for redress.) You just don't want this UN Charter For The Rights of Indigenous Peoples to be enforced to protect the Swedish peoples' rights. In other words, pick and choose among the laws you like and dislike, and discard the ones you dislike - just as Barack Hussein Obama does. He swore an oath to enforce all federal laws, but he lawlessly refuses to enforce US immigration laws because he does not like them. But you had better believe he enforces the tax laws (except against his tax-cheating Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner), because tax collection is where his vote-buying cache comes from.
01:07 September 15, 2011 by Not Dumb

May I point out that not only did my comment not cite you, but what I said was: "The fact that it seems too many here feel free to openly express sentiments that reflect either one or both of the above definitions makes quite a comment, and one that sadly proves the point regarding what many see as nightmarishly inappropriate perceptions of immigrants. What's worse, I expect there are those that will take pride in that."

What preceded this were only the definitions of both Xenophobic and Racist according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. If you doubt it see my comment, #63. WHAT YOU ACCUSE ME OF THOUGH IS: "But I guess you see what it is what you wanna see. You label people with different opinions and try to get the upperhand by calling them something horrid like a racist. Well I'm not fazed by your accusations because I know who and what I am. I should be able to comment on any issue, however I want, without being labeled."

Excuse me, but this is a really very interesting bit of psychology in play, especially as it seems that if there's any 'labeling', you've just put a 'lablel' upon yourself without any help from me whatsoever. I called no one either Racist or Xenophobic, but provided simply the definitions of what those words mean. I NEVER MENTIONED YOU; though -- as I made clear -- my opinion is that there have been a number of comments revealing xenophobia and racism, and I'm not the only one that made such an observation, ie, comments #23 and 49.

If you feel so defensive about what you wrote 'migga', perhaps you might ask yourself why. If someone calls out on a crowded street 'idiot', and another person who they never set eyes upon, had their back to, and didn't even know existed, replies 'don't call me that'...well, what does this suggest to you?

Of course, it's also a well known and effective 'FAR RIGHT PLOY' to accuse someone of somehow abusing you or your rights, drawing sympathy for oneself and ones position, and against ones opponent in so doing. However, in this vein, allow me to quote Shakespeare's Hamlet; specifically, Act 3, Scene 2 -- "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"...

Forgive me, but end of conversation...except that I really believe ANY that indulge in racism and xenophobia do have some issues to address with themselves.
01:09 September 15, 2011 by Not Dumb

May I point out that not only did my comment not cite you, but what I said was: "The fact that it seems too many here feel free to openly express sentiments that reflect either one or both of the above definitions makes quite a comment, and one that sadly proves the point regarding what many see as nightmarishly inappropriate perceptions of immigrants. What's worse, I expect there are those that will take pride in that."

What preceded this were only the definitions of both Xenophobic and Racist according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. If you doubt it see my comment, #63. WHAT YOU ACCUSE ME OF THOUGH IS: "But I guess you see what it is what you wanna see. You label people with different opinions and try to get the upperhand by calling them something horrid like a racist. Well I'm not fazed by your accusations because I know who and what I am. I should be able to comment on any issue, however I want, without being labeled."

Excuse me, but this is a really very interesting bit of psychology in play, especially as it seems that if there's any 'labeling', you've just put a 'lablel' upon yourself without any help from me whatsoever. I called no one either Racist or Xenophobic, but provided simply the definitions of what those words mean. I NEVER MENTIONED YOU; though -- as I made clear -- my opinion is that there have been a number of comments revealing xenophobia and racism, and I'm not the only one that made such an observation, ie, comments #23 and 49.

If you feel so defensive about what you wrote 'migga', perhaps you might ask yourself why. If someone calls out on a crowded street 'idiot', and another person who they never set eyes upon, had their back to, and didn't even know existed, replies 'don't call me that'...well, what does this suggest to you?

Of course, it's also a well known and effective 'FAR RIGHT PLOY' to accuse someone of somehow abusing you or your rights, drawing sympathy for oneself and ones position, and against ones opponent in so doing. However, in this vein, allow me to quote Shakespeare's Hamlet; specifically, Act 3, Scene 2 -- "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"...

Forgive me, but end of conversation...except that I really believe ANY that indulge in racism and xenophobia do have some issues to address with themselves.
02:15 September 15, 2011 by stoogefest
Now... I've been here for over a year and all I can say is this - screw you, both parties, "Us" and "Them". I'm a foreigner too, a student. But hell, I don't like immigrants either.

You gotta have head problems... or have cement-dived head-on from 50 m if, when making the first step out of central station, you couldn't see the biga*s red line that separates immigrants from natives. It's got a stench to it too. You can't avoid TRIPPING OVER it either. No... You just GOTTA be a libtard pretending not to see it.

It's not just muslims that are targeted. Basically anyone with monkeyish behavior (not saying that muslims are), who is way too social, speaks on their phone for 20 hours, just cuz it's 1 kronor per call and invites ALL their monkey friends and relatives in an already CROWDED 30m2 room, even though there are FIVE RENTERS in it at the moment, each doing his own stuff, while the rest are crackin' the music volume up and screaming OVER the music... those people (even coming from Eastern Europe myself) I would SEVERELY classify as THEM too.

And you! Pink-skins hiding in the dark, pretending to be liberal. Yes, you!

Stop acting. It's good to show some healthy dose of racism from time to time, that just shows that Sweden's immune system is working. But damn, you guys don't know how to communicate AT ALL.

I'm in the middle here, sandwiched between monkeys on extasy who never quit flapping those jiggaboo lips, and a bunch of pink-skins with anxiety disorder. I mean... The hell should I do now?

Being as un-swedish looking as I can be (brown hair and eyes, yet tall), NOT ONCE was I mistreated or even felt a bad look towards me. I've pulled off sweet conversations with swedes and really opened them up when I saw that they were getting into it, NEVER bothered those who go red-faced and collapse (like Hinata from Naruto) if you talk to them. I'm well off here but I don't like it and I won't live here. I'm takin' my education and farewell, no bonding with anyone, no feeling sorry.

I guess that's what swedes like and I love hanging out with those straight-up people who know what they're doing, and as I usually say - one word of theirs is enough to paint 1000 pictures. I have yet to find an IMMIGRANT who's quiet yet confident and a doer. Feel me?

Stereotypes are based on observation. Next time you run into "racism", ask yourself - why are my compatriots so susceptible to monkeyshines? Maybe it's the way they were brought up which is incompatible with the lifestyle HERE.

A middle-class family in Europe doesn't consist of 20 members who live in a tin shack of 5 square meters. If you don't like the most socialist state in the world, please buy a one-way ticket.
02:22 September 15, 2011 by efm
Perhaps, a comparison of Sweden to the USA or Canada is just not possible.

The culture of USA & Canada is based on immigration and it's integration to society. We in the USA celebrate the unique contribution of different people which add to the "fabric" which is America. This unique American experience is displayed if somebody serve in a US Navy ship. There are people from diff. culture and races and they are all taken and celebrated as contributors to the cause. A ship may sometimes put on a show to celebrate the diff. nationality on board, but in the end, we are all Americans. Any big American city has an International day of celebration which honor diff. races and people. The common expression here is that, somehow, one way or another, we are all immigrants, and although this is far from perfect, America would never be where it is, without the contributions of immigrants who came thru the centuries. Sweden will never be like USA. I would suggest for immigrants to find another country. Leave Sweden. Leave these hateful people. Do not patronize their products, Leave them alone. Go to a friendlier country where your contribution is appeciated and respected. Tourist, find another destination.

For my part, I'll stay in America. Bye Bye.
03:47 September 15, 2011 by Not Dumb

In most cultures, Xenophobia and Racism are looked upon as among the worst kind of negative attributes. To witness some celebrate and defend such things, even if those doing so do not realize they are, is both extremely unfortunate and disturbing, as well as an indicator of present circumstances. I'll add that Islamophobia is also widely considered inappropriate conduct, being described by Wikipedia as "prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims".

Of course, as America does celebrate diversity (as Robbie pointed out), that even means that any 'Tea Partiers' (ie, those that take joy in the intellectual prowess of Sarah Palin, but would happily slap down more common sorts for far lesser faux pas) do have pretty much the same opportunities as others, that they aren't treated as 'subhuman', even if one disagrees with their beliefs. But, perhaps it is that 'tolerance' which has allowed 'immigrants' such as Kissinger and Brezinski into government, not to mention bringing Albert Einstein to US shores.

Heck, in 1985 the US even allowed an immigrant named Rupert Murdoch to become a citizen; though, recent headlines do indeed cast some shadows upon that moment. But, perhaps the bottom line is expressed with a simple but increasingly vital word, 'tolerance'...
13:21 September 15, 2011 by Migga
@ Not Dumb

Your comment is adressed to my comment on my webbrowser, don`t know what went wrong there. But if it wasn`t then great because it wasn`t valid.
14:43 September 15, 2011 by cupidcub
Everybody needs to be a little more TOLERANT on each other.. that will solve all the problems in this regard I guess.
14:57 September 15, 2011 by godnatt
@ Not Dumb

You clearly do not have any grasp of the facts of the situation.

"Prejudice" means bias without cause.

With knowledge of the provable, quantifiable negative criminal and economic effects of Swedish immigration policies, the only sane stance is opposition. The numbers speak for themselves.

But you prefer to trade in long winded platitudes and name calling, not facts.
17:58 September 15, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ rls976

I guess by your definition, blind people can't live in Sweden either, as they would not be able to recognise your "whiteness" (mine too, just for the record.)

As I stated before, I have no problem with following laws, but not "hate laws".

Ultimately in the grand scheme of things, I will have to answer for my actions, decisions, activities,compassion (or lack thereof) and give an account for how I used my life for good or not, as I chose. There is much greater things in this universe than me OR you. I know when I have to account, I can hold my head high and know that I have tried my very best to be kind, fair, just and I have never deliberately hurt, demeaned, shamed or hated another person. I can not answer for their actions, only my own.

I have realised every human on this earth is just as good as I am, just as important, just as valuable...whatever their origins are, whatever skin they are wearing at this moment, I am am every bit as valuable as anyone else also, even you! (what a surprise huh?)

We are not physical beings who experience the spiritual every now and then, we are spiritual beings having a human experience in order to learn and elevate ourselves higher. Some of us are farther along in our spiritual quest, some are still infants in their journey. No one can be angry at an infant for their lack of understanding. This being said, have a lovely weekend :-)
19:04 September 15, 2011 by rls976

The UN Charter For The Rights Of Indigenous Peoples is not a "hate law". Oops!! I guess it is, if it is applied to the preservation of a white people and their heritage. Wanting to accomplish that - with no inherent malice toward other races - is just not valid, is it?
19:12 September 15, 2011 by godnatt
@ jacquelinee

And by your definition honor killers, terrorists, female circumcisers, child molesters, rapists, murderers, criminals and everything in between are "just as good as I am, just as important, just as valuable."

Thanks for speaking on behalf of the universe for us. Glad you have everthing on such good authority.

Perhaps a lesson in realism (and humility) is in order for you. Maybe the universe will give it to you.
19:58 September 15, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ rls976

I agree. It cetainly is not, but any benign law can be manipulated into th tool for hate mongers. Look at the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition and their corruption and twisting of the bible. Look at the how the Extremist Islamic groups twist the Curran to allow them to perform acts of terrorism. From the beginning recorded history there were those who were evil who interpreted written laws to excuse their acts of hate.

I am sorry to say that I see a passive aggressive underlying tone in the way you use The charter of rights. Correct me if I am wrong but the simple statement you made " You are, according to the UN, an illegal colonizer. You have no right to be in Sweden." rings with a bit of underlying predjudice to me. I am pretty sure my Ethnic Swedish husband may disagree with you on this point.

@ godnatt

"And by your definition honor killers, terrorists, female circumcisers, child molesters, rapists, murderers, criminals and everything in between are "just as good as I am, just as important, just as valuable."

They were until they made a conscious choice to choose acts of evil. They deserve what they will get. Evil and hatred never win...NEVER.

I don't have to defend myself to you, and I will get back what I send out , just the same as you and everyone else. It has nothing to do with humility or the lack of it. It is just universal law. There are far more poewerful laws than the ones designed by man. You have a lovely weekend too.
19:59 September 15, 2011 by Hawking

You must have been counting on no one actually reading this UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. I have a little experience with some Pacific Islanders many years ago regarding this very issue and was interested enough to go ahead and read this relatively new document.

Whoever your legal rep is, you should fire them immediately 'cause you're deluded if you think this applies to you, or "the white, ethnically Nordic/Germanic people of Sweden". The most glaring reason (among so many I stopped counting) is because you've already got your own State. Now if you're saying that you want to overthrow and replace that State with one more to your liking, that's a whole different issue.

I'm sure you won't accept this so feel free to pursue it. Just don't be surprised when you are thrown out of the courtroom for wasting their time. What a joke.

signing out for good on this issue.
20:49 September 15, 2011 by rls976

You are either dishonest or dull. Nowhere in UN Charter For The Rights Of Indigenous Peoples does it say that this protection is to apply only to indigenous peoples who do not have their own state! In an earlier response to me you falsely acted as if I had claimed a racial superiority when I had not remotely done anything of the sort, and now you make this false claim about the UN charter for protection of indigenous peoples


Article 8

1. Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture.

2. States shall provide effective mechanisms for prevention of, and redress for:

(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;

(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;

(c) Any form of forced population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;

(d) Any form of forced assimilation or integration;
23:37 September 15, 2011 by godnatt
@ jacquelinee

Ah, so now instead of "EVERY human on this earth" there is now a criteria.

And it's YOUR criteria that's the right one. I see.

If we have problem with a religion that is explicitly intolerant, mysogynistic, anti-Semitic, homophobic and violent, we are wrong.

We draw the moral line exactly where YOU do or we are defying the laws of the universe.

Because you speak for the universe. Very humble indeed.
00:37 September 16, 2011 by Robbie619

You said:

"Regarding immigration Sweden has been more generous and progressive than any country in the world, providing ample money, education, family-unification, free health care...EVERYTHING. More than the US has dreamed of doing"

....and I say....

We have way better universities, look at the top college rankings. The family in Sweden is divided, people rarely stay together and I've seen articles and comments here state that children are taken away from parents all the time, how is that family-unification???. Free health care is only good if the health care itself is good. The US may have expensive healthcare but the best doctors from all over the world come to work here beccause there is more money to be made. Think about this, Canadians get free healthcare yet they still come to the US and SPEND for better treatment. By the way, the swedes complain more about their healthcare than anyone else, that should tell you something. The only things I envy about those that live in Sweden (particularly men) is that crime is much lower there and the women are usually hot as opposed to most American girls which are fat.
01:36 September 16, 2011 by Not Dumb

For the record, quote the Charter on the Indigenous all you like, but one minor point -- the UN's deinition of "INDIGENOUS PEOPLES", and unless native Swedes are (among other things) a MINORITY here, you simply are not defined as Indigenous!!!


The working definition (of Indigenous Peoples) reads as follows:

"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them. They form at present non-dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories, and their ethnic identity, as the basis of their continued existence as peoples, in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal system."



File Format: Microsoft Word - Quick View


I won't again provide definitions of what Racism, Islamophobia and Xenophobia are, but I will again cite what I did in an earlier comment. To quote myself: Of course, it's also a well known and effective 'FAR RIGHT PLOY' to accuse someone of somehow abusing you or your rights, drawing sympathy for oneself and ones position, and against ones opponent in so doing. However, in this vein, allow me to quote Shakespeare's Hamlet; specifically, Act 3, Scene 2 -- "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"...

Forgive me, but end of conversation...except that I really believe ANY that indulge in racism and xenophobia do have some issues to address with themselves.


Do you know what a 'DIGITAL BROWNSHIRT' is? I'll add I do think all readers should Google the term.

To again quote myself...I won't again provide definitions of what Racism, Islamophobia and Xenophobia are, but I will again cite what I did in an earlier comment. To quote myself: Of course, it's also a well known and effective 'FAR RIGHT PLOY' to accuse someone of somehow abusing you or your rights, drawing sympathy for oneself and ones position, and against ones opponent in so doing. However, in this vein, allow me to quote Shakespeare's Hamlet; specifically, Act 3, Scene 2 -- "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"...

Forgive me, but end of conversation...except that I really believe ANY that indulge in racism and xenophobia do have some issues to address with themselves.
03:23 September 16, 2011 by godnatt
@ Robbie619

At what point did I say Sweden was more advanced or better than the US? I said it was advanced for a SMALL economy.

You took a thread about Swedish immigration and somehow turned it into "America Rules, Europe Sucks".

Go back and get you GED, bro, and stop posting on foreign boards. You're the guy that makes everyone think Americans are retarded.
04:08 September 16, 2011 by nathan45
The fact is white nations have a stagnant or decreasing populations and other non white non western thinking nations have exploding populations with the excption of a few of the more well devoloped nations like japan. If we dont stand up to this insane number of refugees immigrants from third world countries who apparently dont have money to feed them selves but have the money to buy a plane ticket here then they live off our wellfair system a few years just long enough to learn enough english to get a job as a store clerk that some unemployed swede or German could of had then he can find him self a nice white girl further decreasing our numbers. A real sad ending for a race that shaped the modern world and all we've accomplished in the sciences the arts, womens rights I could go on but you get what I am trying to get across.
04:46 September 16, 2011 by Not Dumb

In comment #87 you said a few things, ie...

- "You clearly do not have any grasp of the facts of the situation."

- "The numbers speak for themselves."

- "...the only sane stance is opposition"

You then added that I: "prefer to trade in long winded platitudes and name calling, not facts." Of course, according to Wikipedia: "A platitude is a trite, meaningless, biased, or prosaic statement, often presented as if it were significant and original." Wikipedia gives as examples "Go with the flow", "Everything happens for a reason"...and you were good enough to provide the above three statements, not to mention your rather stale accusation itself.

As for 'name calling'...in your comment #97 you close by condemning another poster with the phrase "You're the guy that makes everyone think Americans are retarded."

I won't comment on the meaning of the term HYPOCRITE, but some years ago, Al Gore spoke of 'DIGITAL BROWNSHIRTS', and the right wing "squadrons of digital brownshirts" that are used "to harass and hector".

I now have nothing further to say to you Godnatt, as well as the rest of those which so obviously share similar thoughts and actions. I imagine Jimmie Åkesson is pleased with you all. The end...punkt slut.
06:09 September 16, 2011 by ctinej

It is the compassion of the Swedes that allowed immigrants into the country in the first place. It is partially the behavior and reputation that the Immigrants have earned, that have ostracized them.

Yes, so many rights have been lost: Freedom of expression,-you get death threats if you mock their religion, freedom of a walk down the street at night, freedom to work and live in a relatively crime free country. All lost in recent years.

Gained is a new life for people running from disaster. The culture comes with them. They will naturally strive to preserve their culture. Immigration authorities should look not at individuals, but at immigrating cultures. Do we want that culture in, and taking over our country?

My folks were immigrated to the USA. There, they joined the Norwegian club, and assimilated with other Scandinavians. Grandfather, got frustrated with the "American" women and went back to Norway to find a wife. OK, thanks for that.,,I'm tall, blond, and blue.Now, 80 years later, we are still in several Scandinavian organizations. We assimilated, but not all the way. We keep the culture and tradition going!!! We should offer free Lutefisk to the homeless people!!!, .

In San Francisco, we have China town, Portagee town, Philapino town, etc. The Mobsters were Italian and the bootleggers, Irish. Lapskas Blvd in New York was Norwegian town. Now we have Mexican gangs, Asian gangs, and Korean gangs, and a bevy of restaurants representing all the cultures. Thankfully, There are still not any Skin Head restaurants.

But....Where are the Swedish gangs??, ...painting Thor,or ufdah all over our buildings??? The "You paint a picture of Odin with a bomb on his head and we will kill you!!" kind of gangs? Modern Swedish culture is more respectful. The Swedish gangs of the past were called Vikings.

Did anyone notice that there was NO looting in Japan after the disaster? Their immigration policy is pretty short....NO.

I love being Scandinavian. I dont think any of us want to become "one" . Folks dont want to, and really cant change their heritage. What they can change is their morals, religion-or hopefully lack thereof, and work ethic.

What all of humanity has to change is the malignant breeding. Too many people already.

How many children are the Immigrants having??-another earned reputation, yet to be fixed....I like that word, literally and figuratively.
07:02 September 16, 2011 by rls976
@Not Dumb

You are absolutely wrong, fellow. Nice try, though. That "working definition" you quoted from the United Nations as being its "working definition" of indigenous peoples is NOTHING OF THE SORT. The UN states explicitly that the "definition" you cited, put together by one Jose R Martinez Cobo, was never adopted by the UN as its definition of indigenous peoples! And yet you deceptively claim it is the UN's very definition. Therefore your claim that a people has to be a minority to be defined by the UN as indigenous is 100% wrong. Regarding the UN it is factually wrong, and, with a little reasoned thought, it is absurd on its face, the idea that a people cannot be indigenous to a land unless they are a minority there!

The UN states the following:

"Peoples in independent countries who are regarded as indigenous on account of their descent from the populations which inhabited the country, or a geographical region to which the country belongs, at the time of conquest or colonization or the establishment of present state boundaries and who irrespective of their legal status, retain some or all of their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions."


How absurd that we even have to debate about whether Swedish-speaking white Nordic/Germanic people, whose ancestors have lived in Sweden more than one thousand years, are indigenous! According to what the UN calls a "statement of coverage" (quoted above), those Nordic/Germanic Swedish-speaking peoples of Sweden are indeed indigenous to Sweden. To say the least they "inhabited the country at the time of the establishment of present state boundaries". They have been there through centuries of boundary changes. THEY ARE INDIGENOUS, PERIOD. And so we are back to the correctness of my assertion that they are having their rights as the indigenous people trampled on by the foreign colonizers, and by the leftist governments that import the colonizers. As for your absurd contention that they must be a minority to be indigenous, that status will come if the domestic left gets its way.
11:18 September 16, 2011 by AnnicaE

Is there anything you like in this country or are you just miserable all the time? I've read all of you comments during the last weeks, and you come across as a very angry, frustrated, lonely and sad person. Alienated and racist to swedes. Maybe you should go and see someone and talk about that. Or join a boxing club and beat at ... something. I'd love to meet you and take you around, have a "fika" and talk. I work in a hospital and love to show you what it's like in the real world. The doctors love to meet you too.


I've got relatives in US too, children and grandchildren of people that left Sweden 1880-1910. Liked you comment.

@everyone who actually LIVE in Sweden and are writing comments here

You never know what life will throw at you, and somehow you ended up here. This is a country that I love, and most of you don't. I feel sorry for those who because of circumstances must stay, and those who have a hard time, but put the shoe on the other foot. How does swedes, or nordic people, get treated in your country? I spend a lot of time in England, since my husband is british, and the comments I get from people who have never even been here, is unbelievable. And they, as well as you lot, know everything about us. There are things here that could change, but mostly political issues that concern economy, work and so on. Immigration is not one of them, but the way immigrants are introduced in this country is one. I still think that learning the language is very important, but most english speaking immigrants don't bother.

I acutally like that we're all different, it makes it more interesting.
12:14 September 16, 2011 by Hawking

One last thing because I see in your post#93 you didn't get the implication of my statement in post #92, "The most glaring reason".. (you don't qualify as indigenous).."is because you've already got your own State."

The implication in this case is that you already have your own fully formed mechanism for self-determination. Swedes have their own country, military, parliament, and a complete economic and political structure. That's obvious to all. In other words, the Swedes ARE the state. The only indigenous people in the nation-State of Sweden, according to the definitions and wording of the UN declaration, are the Sami.

Your stumbling block seems to be your misunderstanding of the word "Indigenous" as it is applied in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. So, while I understand your fear of losing your "Culture" (but don't agree with your reasons for your fear), you really are trying to save it in all the wrong ways.

The best parts of Swedish culture will never fade away IMHO, they embody things the whole world can't help but admire and strive to adopt. Some of the worst parts, maybe not so much. :-) But isn't it like that in every "Culture"?
16:15 September 16, 2011 by rls976

See post 100 for the UN's "statement of coverage". If the Nordic/Germanic people do not fit that, then all of us communicating here are ploar bears.
16:23 September 16, 2011 by LundenLad
speaking as a non-swede, I like Sweden, but the dummies who let anyone in regardless of how useful they are to Sweden or how well they will fit in are just criminally stupid. A points system like Australia is what you need.
18:06 September 16, 2011 by AnnicaE
Want to read what a "turoid" has to say:

It's called "What's wrong with Stockholm"

19:07 September 16, 2011 by BCIS
Basically, the Swedes need to get over themselves. I'm a Black American woman married to a Swedish man. We do not live in Sweden, our main residence is in the States and we currently reside in the Middle East, with frequent trips to Stockholm. I love Stockholm, the Swedes as a group are not easy to love. Even though the men are hot. LOL

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Swedish people as a whole, but I find their unwelcoming attitude rude, and unnecessary. People who do this, it's just a way for them to feel like they're better than someone else. When really what does "better than" mean? Does it mean who has/makes more money? Is it who has a better home? Then I probably got them beat there as well, since most Swedish people live in a box, and we live VERY well. Is it based on who's more worldly? Then, I probably got them beat there as well considering I travel over 50,000 miles a year (you can check out my travels at http://www.blackchickontour.com. Every person who isn't Swedish is NOT try to immigrate to Sweden to live off of their welfare system.

My point is...they're prejudging people and putting anyone who's not Swedish into the box the author described. Yet, they want to hold up this picture that portrays Sweden as all welcoming, when in fact they're far from welcoming. And, really for what? A country that is only worth living in 4 months out of the year? And, that's on a good year.

When I first visited Sweden (over 10 years ago) I would try to speak Swedish, and almost without fail, the sales clerk, the Metro person, or whoever was cold and rude, especially Swedish women. What is their deal? But, when I walk into a place and I make no attempt to speak Swedish and I just start speaking English, they act all nicey nicey. What the eff is that about? It's so fake. So, even though I know enough Swedish to speak it, I refuse to speak it to a Swedish person I don't know. Because they don't know how to act. This is what I've discovered about Swedish people and the prejudices they won't recognize.

Oh Well. C'est La Vie They're attitude doesn't stop me. I will be back in Stockholm next summer, feeling fabulous, while Swedish women give me the evil eye.
19:21 September 16, 2011 by rls976

"Black Chick on Tour". That, plus your attitude about the Swedes, makse it clear that you, like many many other negroes, ought to get over yourself. So many love to critique whites based on the perceived attitudes of whites.
19:44 September 16, 2011 by Ron Pavellas
I am an immigrant. I was born in the USA, am now a Swedish citizen, and have lived here 9 years. I don't feel like an "immigrant". I guess being "American" is OK in some way, or I am not paying attention. Three of my grandparents were born in Greece, and some of them found assimilation in the USA difficult, but in the second generation things got better. I am in the third generation; my five children in the USA don't know what 'Greek' is, at all. They have no memories such as I have. They are completely American with no hyphenation. In any case, they would have to have a lot of hyphens.

It took the USA a long time to sort out its acceptance of immigrants from places other than western and northern Europe, but it has gained in the experience. I think we should give Sweden at least a couple of generations to get used to Swedes who aren't blue-eyed, or fair-skinned, etc. As for the "immigrants" I suggest you stand tall and just be yourselves, but do try to adjust to the ways of your adopted country. You probably can't "go home again". If you went back to your birth country you probably would find that both you and the country have changed in ways that would be extremely difficult to re-adjust to. Sweden is changing, and will continue to change. Count on it. You are changing it, but do it with good will and tolerance. It'll work better that way. Tolerance goes both ways.
20:20 September 16, 2011 by BCIS
@rls976 My opinion is based on experience. And, there hasn't been one Swedish person (because I do have some Swedish friends) who when i tell them that, when I try to speak Swedish that I'm treated like crap, but when I speak English, the person is at least pleasant. Every single one has said, "yes that's true." Even my born and bred Swedish husband admits that it's true. So, to go back to the article in which the author states:

If you are a coloured person or speak Swedish with an accent it is enough for you to be included into the category of immigrant.

What does immigrant mean in Sweden? It means the person (1) lives on welfare, (2) has 10+ kids, (3) doesn't want to work, (4) etc. etc.

So tell me, why is it when I speak Swedish with my American accent and not so c I'm treated like crap, but when I speak English, and am then recognized as American, that I'm not. Answer that?
20:33 September 16, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ godnatt

It has absolutely nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with truth. You are bo better than a muslim, they are no better than you, unless one ot the other of you choses to make yourself a worse person by crime, hatred, bigotry etc. The choice is totally up to the individual and it has nothing to do with skin colour, nationality etc.

@ AnnicaE

I liked it enough to marry a Swede and move her and make my life here. If you really had been reading my posts you would know there are many things I love about Swedesn. Fortunately, I was not born here so I have not been conditioned since dagis to unquestioningly believe all that is drilled into my head about Sweden.

There are many things wrong here. (Not just here, but here is where we are speaking of at the moment)

Racism for example or bad healthcare practices and no accountability for it. If you truly have read my posts then you will know this is what the negative comments usually are about and they are directed towards the blind, the bigoted and the negligent. Get your head out of the sand and admit that there are somethings wrong with this country. Not all Swedes are bigoted or blind, but a lot sure are. Maybe the complacent, brainwashed sector of the Swedish population should have the insight and courage to open their mouths and demand that abuse of old people stop and the perpetators are fired, demand that medical malpractice is investigated and the guilty parties are accountable, demand that the ambulatory care will be heavily fined for not dispatching ambulances when they are called for, these things would change.

It is far easier though, to ignore all the things within your country that are NOT working right and focus on your neighbour whose skin or hair or eyes are not the same colour as yours and say "THERE is the problem with Sweden." That is so much easier because it demands no action or accountability on your (er inte din) part.
20:36 September 16, 2011 by BCIS
@rls976 On the other hand. Don't answer that question. I now see by your other comments that you're unevolved and a troll ready to spew hatred in the name of the white man. Gawd!! I wonder if the Swedish people know they have someone of your caliber speaking in general terms for them? BTW: that question is rhetorical (pssst. that means I really don't expect an answer)
20:56 September 16, 2011 by rls976

No refutation from you of the substance of what I wrote. just insults.
21:08 September 16, 2011 by BCIS
@rls976 LMAO!!! You didn't write anything of substance. OMG!! I'm still laughing. Substance...that's funny. Have a good evening!!
21:22 September 16, 2011 by skatty
@Ron Pavellas

After reading your comment, I still believe that the writer of the article has right that immigrants in Sweden are transformed into "the others". For some reasons, I don't think that time will solve the problem (as you believe). There are many reasons, but I explain one:

The most important is the social structure and the place of immigrants in it. In your example of USA; the heart of the capitalism and market economy, money is the power and there are immigrants (for generations) from different countries (including developing countries), who are very rich and some very poor, and of course a lot middle classes as well.

In Sweden, you may find very few stone rich immigrants from developing countries and some from developed countries. Traditionally, most of immigrants in Sweden have been from working classes, and during the last 30 years refuges (a mix of working and middle class) during the last 30 years.

One big problem is that, the image that Swedes have receive from immigrants is the image of a poor miserable, who is in need of Swedes and Swedish tax payers (even though, many immigrants have a job and pay tax). Some middle class refugees have tried to change this image of immigrants in the last 3 decades (with not much success); however, the interest of Swedes and Swedish culture base on looking down to immigrants and keep immigrants as a second class citizens (the whole immigration policy base on this image). By the fact that Swedes get use to see immigrants as working class or refugees, it would be hard to change the image of immigrants in Sweden, no matter how much immigrants would try, even for the immigrants, who rise to the middle class.

You can realize the conflicts by the contradictions between the language of the politicians about the need for immigration and immigrants, and the tiny opportunities and possibilities for job in higher level of society for immigrants.
21:48 September 16, 2011 by rls976
@Ron Pavellas

The following, from the UN Declaration On The Rights Of Indigenous Peoples, applies to the indigenous white people of Sweden:

Article 8

1. Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture.

2. States shall provide effective mechanisms for prevention of, and redress for:

(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;

(d) Any form of forced assimilation or integration;

As far as the nonwhite immigrants in Sweden going back to their ancestral homelands (where they are the indigenous peoples) is concerned, they don't want to. Why? Because they will live a far lower standard of living there than in the northern European white man's land. To live well they obviously have to get away from the civilization of their own race, and piggy-back on the white man's economy, rule of law and culture. Problem is, the more of them there are in Sweden, the more Sweden becomes like their homeland. (As you wrote, they are changing Sweden - which you encouraged.) This is because no matter where one is, one is what one is. Look at Malmo. Look at the epidemic of rape against Nordic indigenous women in Scandinavia by negro and Middle-Eastern males. I wonder how the rape victims like the change that you think is so fine.

The UN has statistics on median IQs of various countries and regions. Scandinavia = 107. Egypt = 81. Tunisia = 83. The Arab world as a whole is in the low to mid 80s. Sub-Saharan Africa (black Africa) = 70. Black America = 86. These numbers are not racist: They are fact. Can someone explain to me how importing into Scandinavia people from lower-IQ countries/regions makes life better for the indigenous Scandinavians - for the short term or the long term? Does it make Scandinavia smarter? More governable? More reasoned? More socially cohesive? More economically competitive? More friendly to the environment? More healthy? It is good for the immigrants, but how is it beneficial for the Scandinavian natives - other than the leftist/welfare-state politicians who know that they are importing new leftist voters?

Is Haiti such a miserable place because of the land, the location, the soil, the vegetation, the climate or some other natural cause? If Haiti's 7 million were all ethnic Swedish (white), does anyone seriously believe life there would be even remotely as it actually is? Life in Haiti is as it is because of the people who live there. And what race are they? So how does a white country importing Haitians improve that white country? That just makes it commensurately more like Haiti. Its a great deal for the Haitians that get to leave Haiti for a white country. But for the natives?
23:27 September 16, 2011 by Not Dumb

Read your comments to 'rls976'...you are gifted and do have a way with words, and if you hear a strange sound, it's likely many of the readers of this column applauding your work.
00:02 September 17, 2011 by josearmand
I am an argentinian. I lived in Sweden some years ago. I spoke swedish prety well. I believe what the foreigners say about Sweden and the swedish people is fully stupid. They had to respect every aspect of swedish life and people.

Swedish are in almost any sense, better than most of the foreigners. They forget that most of them came from poor countries where there are none of the things that they are offered in Sweden. The swedes are a correct an polite people. What the hell want the immigrants? That the swedes kiss them all time?

When I was in Sweden, Pinochet killed Chile`s President Allende and began a massive represiòn against chileans and south americans that were living there. Most of the south americans were jailed and torturated becouse they were denounced and given to the police with the help of the chilean population.

In Sweden we make every effort to bring as many chileans and southamericans as a refugees as possible. With the help of raffles , donations and much work we succeded in bringing some thousands chilean refugees.

Soon after arriving, these chilean refugees signed a document asking the swedish government to block and stop the entry in Sweden of other immigrants than the chileans. That is to say, they opposed the coming of south american refugees. At the same time the chileans began insulting and even beating south american immigrants already in Sweden.

The problem with many of the immigrants is that they are so differents from the nordics. But thay cannot blame the swedes for that. I am not blueyed nor blond but I respect any other race and any peaceful culture.
02:07 September 17, 2011 by Not Dumb
When I first came to Sweden in the '90s, I thought it was heaven on earth. Perhaps for the same reasons that there were no political parties in the Parliament then with neo-Nazi roots, I found people here indeed all one might hope for. But times change, and since 2010 a party with neo-Nazi roots is in Parliament, with the attitudes one too often encounters being something I see as a reflection of such sentiments.

I have personally witnessed events that strain my belief, and I am not muslim, not African or Middle Eastern, but a white, university educated North American. Again, the times and people seem to have changed, and if people examine the racism, islamophobia, and xenophobia in many of the above comments, it's easier to appreciate what I mean. I think THE ARTICLE IS RIGHT, I do agree that all immigrants have come to be defined similarly by many here, labeled 'deviant', and with the treatment one faces today reflecting this.

In June, this very site ran an article about how many people from 18-29 would even welcome a Swedish dictatorship instead of the current democracy ( http://www.thelocal.se/34160/20110603/ ). Again, maybe there's a reason that a party with neo-Nazi roots is now in Parliament.
02:19 September 17, 2011 by AnnicaE

My first husband (english) tried to speak swedish in shops and so on, but as soon as people heard his accent the answered in english, not giving him a chance to try his swedish. When asked why, they usually said it was because they wanted to try out their english! My sister is married to an irish guy and he's experienced the same thing and got the same answers. No one's been rude or nasty.


Thanks for "answering". You make some good points, and sure, there's some things that could be better here and in many other countries, but OK, we're talking about Sweden here. You think we're all brainwashed and can't think for ourselves, and again you're talking about swedish people in a narrow minded way. About what you read in the papers about healthcare and so on. If you knew any journalists at all, you'd know that they look for stories like that, but never write about the successfull healthcare. Yes people die and get maltreated, here and in many other western countries, due to age, the human factor and sometimes to lack of empathy and common sense (not sending an ambulance for instance). Don't you think swedes were upset by that?

I'd just like comments here to be more balanced and not so aggressive and negative. As I said before; most of you western immigrants would never write anything bad about your country of origin. Faultless of course.
02:35 September 17, 2011 by godnatt

In all likelihood if you don't live here you're your Swedish is not good. Particularly the pronunciation. Most Swedes would prefer to speak English than listen to butchered Swedish. Hence your two different reactions.

Americans are notoriously bad at picking up the intonation and meter and often sound absolutely ridiculous...even though they think they are speaking perfect Swedish.

Many get good but that's from living here and speaking it EVERY day. We ALL get the same looks in the beginning, even lilly white guys like myself.

That's one of the reasons Swedish is difficult to learn. It's the only foreign country where everyone would rather speak English.
03:32 September 17, 2011 by AnnicaE
I can't find the comment about how we had "stolen this country from the Same population"... Anyway, the same population came from The Ural mountains in Russia and the rest of us from the south and approx at the same time after the ice age and it took a long time before we even "met". They never went south, but stayed far north. The Same population still live in Russia, as well as in Norway, Finland and Sweden. They have been treated rather bad in all those countries.

Some one also wrote that because of the long cold winter we're a cold people. What a lot of B... We're at the same latitude as a big part of Asia and the North America, and both those big continents have colder winters than we have! Time to learn geography.


Americans; get over yourselves! You think you're God's gift, but some (not all) americans I've met are sooo false, with their fake smiles and their fake "warmth". They pretend to be religoius, but when did they ever turn the other cheek?


Swedish and english are in the same language group; the germanic. We share some words, even if the pronounciation and the spelling might differ a bit. The word knife is an old Viking word; kniv.
07:14 September 17, 2011 by Not Dumb

You said: "I'd just like comments here to be more balanced and not so aggressive and negative. As I said before; most of you western immigrants would never write anything bad about your country of origin. Faultless of course."

I can only speak for myself, but I do not take any pleasure in 'airing the dirty laundry' for all to see. I, and perhaps others, only do so because that 'dirty laundry' was repeatedly thrown on me, some folks actually expecting me to 'happily accept it´, with such things having been repeatedly described in the comments among the three articles beginning with Din's 'We never had a single conversation with a Swede'.

You're right, no country is perfect, but some things one can only accept for so long before it becomes clear one must speak out.

I have heard native Swedes say -- on more than one occasion -- that 'I don't recognize this country anymore', and they didn't mean it in relation to immigrants. Things have changed, and if it's any consolation, I know I'm only speaking out because my life has been changed by that, by what I believe to be the newly perceived legitimacy too many seem to feel about blatantly inappropriate conduct towards those of foreign origins. And kudos to The Local for having the courage to air a vital topic which others yet avoid.

Native Swedes 'lider i tysthet' (suffer in silence), but doing so hasn't seemed to help me, nor perhaps the others that are now speaking out. Perhaps if enough native Swedes had spoken out when 'all this' started, folks like me would not feel compelled to be doing so now. And AnnicaE, it's not immigrants that have the power to change things here, it is only those native born that have the power to do that.

Perhaps if you want folks to 'change the tune' they're singing, then simply 'change the music' that's being played...
13:13 September 17, 2011 by glamelixir

How old are you? Please tell me that you are one of this ignorant kids in the mediocre Swedish high school that knows nothing about the world.

No blond africans? US being the only multicultural contry? YOU NEED TO GET OUT AND SEE THE WORLD MISTER!

By the way, my country (Argentina) has plenty of tall, blonde and blue eyed is not people, as do many other countries in the world. This is not "a cultural feature" and definetly not an exclusively SWEDISH cultural feature in that case.

As someone well pointed out, Swedes keep on marrying us, immigrants, so many of "your people" seem to dissagree with your point of view.

In my home we have influenced each other culturally without losing the values. I have become a bit more reserved, and my husband has become much more carrying and sharing with others. I often encounter the phrase: "Herregud, du är so svensk!" from him, while my friends find him to be "very Argentinean". I think it is a loving and beautiful thing! Can't you see it as the immigrant, in this case, being an embassador to your culture?

I think your prejudice comes precisely from blocking immigrants in a big bag of homogenic people, and we are not. When people come to visit me, it is me the one who takes them to eat ströming,gravad lax, to visit skansen, the vasa museum and tells stories about the vikings. I sometimes know more about swedish kings than my husband, and definetly have more politican and historical discussions with his father than any of his brothers have ever been able to pick up. So, some of us do respect your culture and values, and are not a threat for mixing your blue eyes with our brown eyes. It is stupid! My eyes are brown, but two of my grandparents were blue eyed, my hair is brown but it was quite blond as a child, how can you even imply that my children won't "look swedish" to your standards any how, and if they were to look swedish, how can you "detect them as non". You position is sick and argumentless.

A wacco like you killed a lot of inocent people in Norway, including blue eyed, blond native norwegian kids. You need to watch out for your ignorance, it is a dangerous seed.
13:57 September 17, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ AnnicaE

I get your point. But, this is a Swedish news. I live in Sweden. People may find me bizzare if I start onCanadian issues while discussing Sweden I've found a standard response "There are issues in Sweden, but whay about X Y or Z?" All countries have issues. They don't concern us at the moment. We live in Sweden. The "Don't look at me, what about you?" attitude is not helping to create any change, it only allows a lack of action as the finger is now directed towards another's issue and not ours.

Your quote... " You think we're all brainwashed and can't think for ourselves,"

I did NOT refer to ALL Swedes, I said ..."Not all Swedes are bigoted or blind, but a lot sure are. Maybe the complacent, brainwashed sector of the Swedish population should have the insight and courage to open their mouths."

Your quote...."About what you read in the papers about healthcare and so on.."

This news enrages me. Friends and collegues (Swedish and other) have told me things. I know people who work in Elderly care homes, who have seen, BAD health care in Sweden.

But my bottom line-

CASE1 I have a skin condition. It usually affects the hands but on rare occasions flares up elsewhere. I went to a Swedish doctor at Vardcentralen when it was on my head, he sent me to the hospital. When the doctor there went to examine me, I told him it was on my head, he said "No. You can't get it there, let me see your hands." I replied, "I don't have it on my hands, it is on my head." He insisted on looking at my hands.." No you do not have it." I replied, "It is on my head." He said "No,it does not come on your head." Never examined my head and gave me a prescription for a cream, "Incase, You get it on your hands,"

CASE2 I had a mole on my arm change colour, turn purpley black and grow very fast. The Swedish doctor at Vardcentrallen took a fast look and told me it was excema & gave me a cream. I told him, I know what excema is, this does not look anything like excema it's not dry or itchy. He ignored me and told me to use it for 2 weeks. After 4 days it was even bigger and I went back and asked for it to be removed and tested. He asked me if I was on any kind of antidepressants. (I am NOT) I insisted on having it removed and tested and he finally gave in. Guess what? The results said "It was not excema. It was something else."?? But on his diagnosis, I would be still slapping on Nivea. Still don't know what it was..

CASE3 I needed medicine sold at apoteket but needs a prescription. I went to Vardcentralen and told the Swedish doctor my concern and the medication that helped. He said hmmmmm. I have never heard of that. We don't have that in Sweden. AND THEY SELL IT COMMONLY AT APOTEKET!!!

So, AnnicaE . I am not a mindless person, who believes anything that is shoved at me. I form my own conclusions.
13:58 September 17, 2011 by AnnicaE
@Not Dumb

Balanced and nice. And very true. We vote and hope, and sometimes it's just so hard to vote since there's not a party to vote for. Their politics are more or less the same... And it's the politics that has to change.

To change the swedish people and their attitude, as has been suggested here several times, must be up to each and every one. And it could be said about a lot of immigrants too. I've met a few that has been very rude and do horrible things, like spit once a minute and spit just in front of you, sneeze without covering their mouth, are rude to your face out in pubs (westerners) and I could make a long list, but anyway, it hasn't made me hate foreigners, all are not like that.

The Sverige Demokraterna in Riksdagen is frightening... Who votes for them? My guess is young, people who can't get into the job market and think it's an immigrationproblem.

The older people, they are scared of anything new and unknown, I can only look back to my now dead grandparents, who didn't dislake or hate foreigners, but were scared of them. And also they didn't speak any english or any other language, neither do my parents. They had italian friends, who lived here and spoke swedish, but when the husband died, the wife became senile and forgot all swedish.

Personally I've had a lot of foreign friends, and one of my cousins has a father from Algeria. My sister, who's an ethnologist (?) is very interested in ancestry, and I think a lot of people should check their ancestery and they might find, like we did, that we come from all over the place; England, Germany, Finland, Belgium in the 1500-1600's. And I'm as swedish as can be; blond and blue eyed, pale, can't be in the sun too loong.

Oops, my (british) husband just said I'm too personal and have lost track of the issue... but what the h*ck... I do talk too much, even with strangers, which really make him mad...
16:33 September 17, 2011 by rls976
Anyone, among the numerous touchy-feely commentators, care to address the questions below? Too much of the commentary seems predicated on an underlying assumption that all civilizations are equal, so it therefore is perfectly ok to mix and blend peoples of different civilizations, with no concern about the long-term effect that might have on the human ability to continue to progress, or even maintain what civilizational level has already been achieved.

In all its history by itself in Africa, the negro race never advanced so far as to even create or discover the wheel. The farthest the Arab world ever got with applied science was alchemy, which is magic-based. When these peoples seek to get to Europe, it is to partake of what another race and its civilization created, which is completely beyond what theirs could ever have imagined.

The UN has statistics on median IQs of various countries and regions. Scandinavia = 107. Egypt = 81. Tunisia = 83. The Arab world as a whole is in the low to mid 80s. Sub-Saharan Africa (black Africa) = 70. Black America = 86. These numbers are not racist: They are fact. Can someone explain to me how importing into Scandinavia people from lower-IQ countries/regions makes life better for the indigenous Scandinavians - for the short term or the long term? Does it make Scandinavia smarter? More governable? More reasoned? More socially cohesive? More economically competitive? More friendly to the environment? More healthy? It is good for the immigrants, but how is it beneficial for the Scandinavian natives - other than the leftist/welfare-state politicians who know that they are importing new leftist voters?

Be advised that the Chinese, Japanese and Korean ethnicities have median IQs like that of Scandinavians. Note also how advanced their home countries are. And compare that with black Africa and the Islamic Middle East (where only oil has lifted them).

You indigenous Scandinavians have a superb civilizational and racial patrimony, and it is that which I believe Sverige Demokraterna wishes rightly to preserve. This patrimony has been passed down through many many generations, and it ought to be preserved for future generations. The scientific and technological accomplishments of our race have spread all over the world, and have made the world a much smaller place erasing, on the surface, differences between races. But the fundamental differences remain.
18:18 September 17, 2011 by AnnicaE

Don't we all derive from Africa? Or are you a space cadet?


Yes, you're right, it's so easy to lash back as soon as someone say anything negative about my country. I get very defensive, but it's Sweden we should discuss.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience at your vårdcentral, and I've always said that there should be some kind of test before you can get into the med education, and not just let high grades rule. Some people just shouldn't be doctors. I've run into a few lousy docs as well, and almost died when I had my first baby, but that doctor is no longer a doctor! As I've said before I work in a hospital. Never the less, we've got one of the best health care in the world (quality), according to WHO and also have contributed, for instance with the pacemaker, a Swedish invention.

The biggest problem is the politicians that hold on to the money, and think that health care can't cost. There's a shortage of hospital staff and the ones that are still there are down on their knees. No money for development or investment. It's gone too far. I can only say to those of you who can vote, at least at Landstingsvalet, vote for a party who care about health care.

The Mayday Hospital in Croydon, UK, has the highest mortality (if I remember rightly) in Europe. Is that were we're heading?

About your own personal problem, I don't know if it's sorted out now, but I'll try to look for a number for you to call, I've heard about a fab doctor at Sophiahemmet who is a specialist in skin care. It's just luck if you find someone who's interested in problems like that, prestige and all that.
18:55 September 17, 2011 by rls976

"Don't we all derive from Africa? Or are you a space cadet?"

That is the best you can do to answer the facts asserted in commentary #126?
19:13 September 17, 2011 by AnnicaE

I guess I'm one of the touchy-feely....

I don't belive that IQ is lower in some people, it's just a lack of education, something that could be corrected. They just haven't had a chance, for all kind of reasons. You're just to hard in your comments to be taken seriously...
20:26 September 17, 2011 by Not Dumb

Thank you, and many Swedes are indeed the good and decent people one expects and hopes for, 'the problems' originating -- as I see it -- indeed with those currently holding political power (as you said, 'the politicians'), where these 'leaders' have led the country. What troubles me the most, and perhaps many others, is the apparent 'legitimacy' many have come to feel about nightmarish discrimination against those of foreign origins, and I have actually seen what I perceive as 'sadistic delight' taken ín some cases where such abuse was present. It does recall the 1930s for me, and does defy my belief.

Sadly, there are many that hold extremely xenophobic attitudes today (the above comments often reflecting this), and feel no compunction whatsoever about treating any of foreign origin as 'subhuman'. Of course, none of us want to think badly of our own, and I expect the denial many exhibit here is simplyt part of that, and all too human. But IMHO laws, regulations, authorities, and businesses here will often act one way towards those native born, and another towards those not. As you discussed, healthcare is a problem for all, but it's worse for immigrants, not to mention problems with jobs, housing, and the considerations one faces when trying to deal with 'myndigheter' (authorities) or the courts.

As the article pointed out, we immigrants have been cast as 'the other', and sadly, Swedish society's faults have been blamed upon us. What isn't explicitly said is that it seems this has provided a false sense of 'legitimacy' to many that then 'punish' us for society's problems, problems I see as neolberal policy's creation. And thus, the 'sadistic delight' taken in the abuse of immigrants by some.

I have personally seen how too many believe we 'have it (abuse) coming' to us, and that we should even accept it with a smile. It does also recall the well publicized Hollywood visions of how blacks were once treated in the US's Deep South.

Of course, in 1930s Germany certain groups were also stigmatized, scapegoated, history showing where that eventually went, and we do have a party with neo-Nazi roots in the Riksdag. For obvious reasons, I wish things were different, and if enough native born Swedes, like yourself, can succeed in waking their brethren up, perhaps it again will be. All one can do is what one can -- to think about what's ongoing, and to act if an opportunity arises...and thank you for trying, one can do no more.
21:51 September 17, 2011 by rls976
@Annica E

I do not know what "You're just to hard to be taken seriously" means. Maybe you meant "too hard".

If my perception is correct, you are an indigenous Swede, born after World War II (like the great majority of currently-living Swedes). This means that, all your life, you have lived in a society marinated in the surreal nostrums of a radical leftist welfare-state ideology. The fundamental assumptions of Swedish (and nearly all other Western countries too) governance since WWII are those of 19th-century egalitarian socialistic ideologies, which themselves derived from the writings of Jean-Jacques Rousseau. All of this historically recent ideology is utterly at odds with these Western societies' traditions. Its goal has been to re-order society along egalitarian lines - not for "equal opportunity", but for "equality of outcome". Karl Marx wrote: "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." At first intended as class-leveling instruments, since the middle of the 20th century these ideologies have been applied as race-leveling ideologies. This has manifested itself in these leftist governments refusing to let the white nations remain their organic traditional selves, insisting instead that alien races be imported for the creation of 'multicultural' egalitarian societies. In other words, discard the traditional organic Western society, and create a new society according to egalitarian ideology.

As I said, you have been marinated in this all your life. It is human nature to accept the fundamental assumptions we grew up with, and for those to be the basis of most peoples' thinking. But that does not make those assumptions efficacious. They can be dead-wrong. Societies can get onto a multi-generational track of decline, and that is what I see the white world on now.

Those IQ numbers in comment #126 are not fantasy or contrived, they are reality, whether you choose to believe them or not. And IQ testing does not measure education level. It measures raw brainpower. You say "They just haven't had a chance." The advancements the white world has made which put it so far ahead of the rest were not handed to it from above. The white world did this on its own. Who gave it a chance that the others did not have? While the white world was forging ahead, the Middle-Eastern, Amerindian, negro and many other worlds, remained static. They had as much chance as the white world, but did not progress until the white world brought progress to them.

I have no hatred toward any other race(s) on a racial basis. But each race ought to be allowed to have its place on this earth and evolve according to its own characteristics. And there is nothing sinister about any Swede wanting this.
22:55 September 17, 2011 by jacquelinee
@ AnnicaE

It is always so refreshing here when people can find a common ground. I appreciate your honesty. I am sure I am overly sensitive also concerning Healthcare because of my own issues. Yes, governments always have a tight reign on the purse strings and I know staff are stretched to their limits which compromises quality care. You are right also, some people are just not meant to be doctors (or nurses, teachers etc) inspite of their education.

Albert Eintein said "The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything"

It is our responsibility as citizens and as humans to use our voices, so perhaps we can assist in bringing about change.

I would love the information you offered, if you can find it. Thank you for being a reasonable person. You deserve respect, and you have mine
13:15 September 18, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
@ris976: Your little racist graph that shows Scandinavia with an average IQ of 107 is obviously manipulated. You did not show average IQ's of other European nations, Russia, Israel, Australia, etc. Tell me, if Scandinavians were so 'smart,' how could they be so stupid to allow their governments to immigrate so many foreigners?

And to those of you who criticize foreigners, including Americans, about how they speak Swedish and have 'butchered' Swedish: I find many ethnic Swedes to continually butcher English. Most of you write worse English than the many immigrants out here. How do you expect ANYONE to learn Swedish if you don't have the patience to converse with them in YOUR language? My experience in Sweden was the same as what many of the foreigners and immigrants out here have conveyed. Swedish is a nothing language; it's significance in the world and the Internet is meaningless. Frankly, I believe it's one of the ugliest languages of Europe. A German friend of mine once told me that "Scandinavians speak like pigeons" and their "language is not as refined as German." I would have to agree.
13:30 September 18, 2011 by Greysuede
"To exemplify I refer to two secretaries of state in the United States, namely Henry Kissinger and Madeleine Albright. It seems that the United States has another approach to the issue. In the US all citizens need to contribute with their competence in order to build the country. All are needed, regardless of the origin or speech articulation.

In the United States a black man with a Kenyan father became president."

should Swedes follow this rubbish?
14:21 September 18, 2011 by Not Dumb
@Greysuede ...re comment 134

You asked "should Swedes follow this rubbish?"...citing US examples of multiculturalism from the article above.

I can only reflect that of course any that are racist, xenophobic, islamophobic, neo-Nazi, or just plain swine will ignore such multicultural examples, or attack them and the issue both. I hope that answers your question.

End of conversation -- punkt slut.
14:31 September 18, 2011 by cogito
@121. quoting: AnnicaE. "Americans I've met are sooo false, with their fake smiles and their fake "warmth".

A cliché straight out of the brainwashing for Swedes textbook. American friendliness is "false." smiles are fake.

Off hand, I'd prefer some fake friendliness and a smile to the genuine unpleasantness and scowl that Swedes are famous for.

btw, as a linguistic expert, you should be aware that while it is true, English and Swedish are both in the Germanic language family, English has even more in common with the Romance (Latin) languages. That's why it is so expressive.

@#133, Right on. Swedes cannot handle foreign accents. No matter how grammatically perfect the foreigner speaks, he gets a look like he just landed from another planet. No wonder many foreigners don't want to take the trouble to learn their pathetically limited little language.
16:24 September 18, 2011 by rls976
@post 133

Did I post a graph in my comment #126? A "racist" graph? The IQ numbers I cited were "manipulated"? Say what?

I cited IQ numbers from the UN. They are factual. You cannot truthfully refute them so you cast aspersion on me for having publicized them. And you did so using the word that enemies of the white race's survival always use to discredit their opponents and shut down conversation, the word "racist". As for your question as to why the Swedes would allow their government to import the foreigners, why do you ask? I devoted two paragraphs in comment #131 to that very question.
19:55 September 18, 2011 by Greysuede
@Not Dumb

you are green idiot teaching us bloody Kissingers, Albrights in Sweden...

what's wrong with Herr Carl Bildt who has his own national and cultural identity, and plus his own surname?

if you think that they are your heroes, so why just not go to USA and live under their umbrella?
20:37 September 18, 2011 by rls976

Do not waste your time trying to have a sensible dialogue with "Not Dumb". In comment #92 I placed an excerpt from The UN's Declaration On The Rights Of Indigenous Peoples, in an assertion that the ethnically Nordic/Germanic Swedish-speaking people of Sweden (indigenous) are having their rights (according to the UN) violated by the presence in Sweden of the nonwhite immigrants and their offspring. He replied, in comment #95, claiming that the UN says a people has to be a minority to be classified as 'indigenous' (native)! In comment #100 I proved his claim to be wrong. I never got a rebuttal. What could he say?
20:46 September 18, 2011 by Not Dumb

and @rls976

While I loathe repeating myself, in this case I'll make an exception; "I can only reflect that of course any that are racist, xenophobic, islamophobic, neo-Nazi, or just plain swine will ignore such multicultural examples, or attack them and the issue both. I hope that answers your question.."

As for Bildt, he's a member of Sweden's nobility, born in Halland, and the idea in the article was to provide examples of immigrants that have risen to the highest levels of the US, thanks to multiculturalism. Obviously, the US also has had the majority of its senior politicians from among those native born. However, it seems such points 'eluded you', and so -- given all the racism and xenophobia in many of the preceding comments -- while of those US politicos The Local's article cited only Obama is black, may I nevertheless provide an excerpt from the conservative 'Times' of Britain about IQ, blacks, and the 'far right' (far right being how I perceive you)...

"Of course, if the far Right were sincere in its motivation for the different treatment of blacks it has a far more effective policy at its disposal. Why not set a mandatory IQ test and then divide people into high, medium and low IQ? Anecdotal evidence suggests that a disproportionate number of the far Right would find themselves in the lowest category and ripe to be bossed around by intelligent black masters." ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article2267671.ece )

I will also add for the sake of some what the definition of a 'delusion' is: "A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence."

Needless to say, I agree with the writers of both The Times' and The Local's articles, but, I'm 'Not Dumb': though, I am forced to repeat myself again -- "End of conversation -- punkt slut"
02:13 September 19, 2011 by Greysuede

"In Spain they absolutely adore the British that has occupied most of the coasts...

I have British friends here who don't like people from Asia.."

so what, ask asians. do asians like british?

don't think that it's good to be influenced and guided by british lowlifes.

research british well...
05:21 September 19, 2011 by Not Dumb
I have to say something here. There are good Swedes, people unlike those whose xenophobia and racism fills too many comments, and those that are good do deserve some respect. Sweden has changed, and IMHO obviously not for the better; but, while it's certainly appropriate to criticize what's wrong, what's simply Swedish need not necessarily be so.

There are good and bad things all over, such is life, and hopefully telling some truths about those problems here may change them for the better...but, I believe a truth must be just that, and not merely outrage thrown over everything. There's more than enough wrong in Sweden to certainly give legitimate criticism to, and if any changes can be made here, it does seem it will only be through focusing upon those wrongs.

Lord knows, I'm as angry about events here as one can be, but it won't help matters for me to take that out on people or things that don't deserve it. I think that kind of conduct should be left to the far right...it seems what they're best at.
07:08 September 19, 2011 by nathan45
This is about more than how you treat your fellow man I dont belive in racism but this is about the future of our race and wether or not theres going to be one.

I live in Canada the place is over run with immigrants, refugees and forigners of every kind the government anounced that in 20 years 1 in 3 canadians will be a visable minority and every other white western nation seems to be on the same track.

almost every asian or african nation has an exploding population and western nations have a declineing one and their people keep coming in search of jobs which is understandable but if we dont let them in we dont have to worry about them being poorly treated.

We need more benifits for women to premote them to have 2 children so we can have a stable population because I dont think that such the race that shaped the world as we know it desirves to die off when you consider all we've acomplished in the sciences, womens rights, human rights what a shame to think in 50 years we will be a minority in our own countries.
07:53 September 19, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
@ris976, post#137: You are STILL evading my point. You intentionally OMIT the nations that have higher IQ's than the Scandinavian nations. Through omission, you intentionally leave your reader with the conclusion that Scandinavia has the highest IQ's. They do not. Scandinavia is also not a nation but a region: Show what EACH of the Scandinavian nations' IQ's are, after all, you mention other nationalities by their nation, not by a region (another intended manipulation.) Don't insult your readers' intelligence: We are far smarter than you and your sleazy tactics. So, then, why don't you address these nations with higher IQ's than "Scandinavia?" Simply because they are not nations of dumb blonds from a bottle: peroxided blonds so stupid to have permitted runaway immigration beyond their control, blaming everyone else for their screw-up just like they do when they put too much bleach in their hair.
08:36 September 19, 2011 by Lavaux
What does Mr. Zandi or any other immigrant expect from a homogeneous culture built on consensus and social leveling whose worst sanction is shunning? One must either fit in, i.e. toe the line and agree with the consensus, or risk shunning. No other options are presented to immigrants.

Understanding this deal, I'm not bothered by it. The price of conformance does not include changing who I am or what I think, believe, or aspire to. It's simply a kind of tax imposed by Swedes on foreigners who want to live here. Pay up but retain your identity. It's as simple as that.

What's Mr. Zandi's alternative? Does he really demand that 9 million ethnic Swedes immediately change their national culture to accommodate a million immigrants? That's unworkable. Swedes demand conformity because consensus and social leveling can't work without it. Plus, Swedes are typically unable to cope with the unfamiliar because their culture simply doesn't instill these skills. Not a day goes by that I don't notice and marvel at this trait. Swedes would be lost without the familiarity their culture provides, so it would be unduly cruel to make them give it up.
12:08 September 19, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
cogito: What you wrote is concise, straightforward, and accurate. English IS far more expressive than Swedish, thanks to the fact of what you pointed out: that English incorporated a large vocabulary of words from the Latin languages. Thank G-d for this, otherwise we'd be speaking, too, like stoic and constipated pigeons. And I frankly "cannot handle" Swedes speaking English with a thick accent, pronouncing words like "easy" as "E-C," "three, through, though, that, there, the and those" as "tree, trew, dough, dat, dair, dah and dose," etc. So, I do the same to them when they are tourists in the U.S.: I just walk away or engage in better things to do than listen to someone who sounds like Mrs. Olson on the old Folgers Coffee ads here in the states. I don't like hearing our English language jellified like old lutfisk left out in lye. Older Norwegians who do not know English understand my Swedish perfectly well with no problem at all, and yet Swedes always played stupid with me, or like you said, "looked at me like i just landed from another planet" with their conceited, stoic, and arrogant demeanor.
13:19 September 19, 2011 by Chickybee
I am gobsmacked - surely if one comes to a country regardless if one is a refugee or economic migrant - one integrates and is grateful for being given the chance to do so!

Don't go to a country if you hate it so much - it's really that simple.
13:57 September 19, 2011 by Not Dumb

You claim that all one need do is conform, or the "worst sanction is shunning". And while that's marvelous 'spin', it has nothing to do with reality. If you're actually an immigrant here, I don't know if you haven't been here very long or just stay secluded, but things far more insidious than 'shunning' are ongoing every day, and it has only to do with ones 'foreign origins'.

If you recall, Mr. Zandi noted that thanks to what he avoided calling 'Swedish xenophobia', "immigrants remain immigrants forever, while the native Swedes inherit their Swedishness." He also observed that those that had "toed the line", as you put it, remained locked as outsiders, Zandi stating: "It is not enough to be a Swedish citizen and speak Swedish fluently and to be a skilled professional within the state's apparatus or in the government."

While slick attempts to 'gloss over' xenophobia and its nightmarish impact anger and sicken me on a personal level, the effects of xenophobia upon countless individuals that have done nothing more than be of foreign origins destroys health, assets, opportunities, and lives for those whose only 'crime' was not to be born Swedish. And while that is despicable, what I believe worse is the conduct of those that seek to bury the truth and legitimize such wrongdoing.

You said "Swedes are typically unable to cope with the unfamiliar", but you fail to add that because of this many fear and hate it, with the very definition of xenophobia being "fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign". And those that hate one just don't treat one so well, which is something you should know if you actually are an immigrant here and lived here for a while in any way other than seclusion.

While there are yet many 'good and decent Swedes' among those native born, today far too many Swedes have turned to xenophobia, feeling it legitimate to 'punish' those of foreign origins they encounter for simply not having been born here.
18:42 September 19, 2011 by rls976
@nathan (post 143)

You are exactly right.

@post 144

You are seething with venom over my having publicized the facts I have cited. After all, in this leftist era these realities - about stark, profound differences between races - simply are not supposed to be mentioned. I am not evading anything. It was never my intention, nor was it necessary, to list the median IQ of every country on earth, and my not having done so does not constitute employment of a "sleazy" tactic. The numbers I cited make the point. You made the absurd criticism that I had mentioned Scandinavia's median IQ, then cited IQs of other countries but not other regions. Did you not see that I gave the IQs for what I referred to as the "Arab world" and "sub-Saharan (black) Africa"?

You indict me for having not mentioned the nations whose median IQs are higher than that of Scandinavia. Oh? There is an explicit assumption in your critique that at least one exists. And will you kindly tell us what those nations are? Zimbabwe? Pakistan? Mexico? Kenya? Libya? Somalia? Iraq? Nigeria? Bolivia? Venezuela? Brazil? Turkey? Jamaica? Tell us which nation(s) have a higher median IQ than Norway, Sweden, Denmark or Finland - individually or collectively. Japan, Israel, South Korea and China are quite high. And those are sources of migrants to Europe to only a slight extent, if at all. Overwhelmingly, the sources of immigration into Europe are low-IQ places, thus dragging Europe down. The white, oriental (Chinese, Japanese and Korean ethnicities) and Jewish peoples stand as the world's high-IQ groups, and all the others, as groups, stand substantially below them. There is the top grouping I cited, then a gap, then the rest below.

Consider this. Within the context of Europe, Spain does not have a top-tier Gross Domestic Product - certainly not on a per-capita basis. On a per-capita basis its GDP is markedly lower than those of all of the northern and central European countries. Yet Spain has a higher GDP than all of the Arab countries combined (excluding oil). In terms of per-capita GDP, Spain and the Arab countries are in different worlds. Does that tell you anything? (Other than that I am "sleazy", a "manipulator" and misleading.)

You said I intentionally left the reader with the conclusion that the Scandinavian countries have the highest median IQ. I did? How do you know that was my intention? If I want to say that I will say it. I have made so many explicit statements in my comments to this article that it ought to be clear that I am not subtle, operating by inference. I am straight-forward and up-front.
19:07 September 19, 2011 by redfish
@Not Dumb

As an American, there are two things that strike me reading the comment thread:

The first is a zealous, almost religious attitude against immigrants and the defense of some vague ideal of "Swedishness" that is never well defined. From an outsider's perspective, it sounds hysteric. This is what you're referring to xenophobic and racism.

The second is a patronizing attitude towards people concerned about immigration, trying to sweep away the issue by using words like "xenophobe" and "racist", as if nobody could have different attitudes towards immigration policy without being xenophobic and racist.

Here in the US there was concern after Hurricane Katrina that the French-based culture of New Orleans would be lost as a mass of Mexican workers came in to do construction work, and taco trucks popped up. None of this had to do with xenophobia .. when we're talking about French-based cooking in New Orleans we aren't talking about any particular "American" identity or race. There is also no complaint about the Mexican cooking in the Southwest -- its understood as part of the culture of those areas. What people were concerned about was that the rich heritage of that particular city that is over 100 years old would be lost because whatever had roots there could now be shoved aside because of crass commercialism and cheap labor.

In general, people like their culture, but beyond that what people are worried about is the loss of culture in general, as traditions everywhere are being thrown away in favor of consumerism, and as people stop appreciating their history.. caring more about their latest iPad apps than about their past.

In Sweden, I assume this is amplified by the fact that the only visible alternative to post-modern consumer culture, is the Muslim culture that is coming in through immigration. And this, in addition to the fact that Sweden has much more of a history than the United States, leads to a less cavalier attitude about immigration.
19:09 September 19, 2011 by Not Dumb
According to Wikipedia...

A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence. Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, stupidity, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.
19:48 September 19, 2011 by rls976
@redfish (post 150)

In my comments I did not leave "Swedishness" "never well defined". I defined it as being of the Swedish-speaking Nordic/Germanic ethnicity that has inhabited Sweden for more than 1,000 years. What is lacking?
00:55 September 20, 2011 by Not Dumb

It sounds like you're a long ways from home here redfish, but I can appreciate some of your points, why you say what you do. And yes, the Big Easy hasn't had it so easy lately, and that is a tragedy on many levels.

New Orleans does have a special culture all its own, and there's nothing wrong with most of it. I won't mention the bridge shootings, nor any of the other nasty stuff, as the city has long had its great sides too. But perhaps some things everywhere are nasty, which ones it is depending upon the place one is; but, while I have lived in the Deep South (I've been well-traveled), I don't think you've lived in Sweden.

Surprisingly, there's a lot that reminds me of the Deep South here -- the insular nature of many towns, the way folks live out their lives in one place, know everyone. Of course, some issues aren't pleasant.

Here, if you came over for a bit, moved outside the tourist spots, you might find yourself in a bit of a time warp, and you might wonder if you had somehow been transformed into a black fellow in a nasty Southern town of another era. As the article said, what matters to many is if one is simply from here or not. And, like it once was in 'nastier' places in The States, it can be 'real interesting' here. Folks can have a real special 'sense of humor' sometimes, such as if everything you own gets accidentally destroyed, your health along with it.

No kidding!

It's amazing what the Swedish version of 'good ol' boys' can do...one doesn't expect it. But, it's their country, and the attitude from the authorities is little more than a shrug -- hey, what's a little injury and destruction if it's to someone not from here.

I'll also add that many of these 'nice folks' that you're so understanding of would likely look at you with contempt if you met them, and that's assuming you're well dressed and white. Again, many are not fond of any foreigners these days...including Americans.

It's like that.

Sound tough to believe? Well, I expect some of these 'nice folks' you've warmed to are members of the Sweden Democrats, a party with neo-Nazi roots that's now in Parliament. If you want, here's a little reading for you about Sweden:

"Swedish kids invited to neo-Nazi summer camp", The Local, June 2011

"Many young Swedes favour dictatorship", The Local, June 2011

"Swedish Child Given Swastika Tattoo With Fast Food Kids Meal", Fox News, August 2011

Sweden is `hotbed of neo-Nazism' - Britain's Independent, 1996

Redfish, unless you're one of these boys yourself and just 'spoofing' me, maybe you might want to rethink a bit. In an increasing number of folks eyes, the biggest crime one can commit in Sweden seems being here if you weren't born here...and for that, there are lots that will feel free to 'punish' you.
01:54 September 20, 2011 by rls976
@post 153

Oh yes, its so awful being non-Swedish in Sweden. Try being white in Zimbabwe. Or South Africa where, since 2006, an average of two white farmers or their family members have been being murdered - per week. Two per week. South Africa, where among the young negroes the most popular politician sings an anthem with the lyrics "Shoot the Boer" (Boers being whites). Whine on about people in Sweden "look(ing) at you with contempt". My my, how devastating for them to look at someone that way! And if there is a party in Parliament with "neo-Nazi roots" as you claim repeatedly (you, who claimed falsely in post 95, that the UN says a people has to be a minority to be indigenous to a land - which claim I proved false in post 100), what might have provoked such a party into existence? Nonwhite immigration!

By the way, Olof Palme, the Swedish prime minister who was a huge proponent of the nonwhite immigration, was a self-proclaimed socialist. And he visited Cuba during 1975 and highly praised communist dictator Fidel Castro.
03:40 September 20, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
@Not Dumb: Thank you for telling it like is about Sweden. Rural and northern Sweden are dangerous places even for white Americans and Canadians.

@ris976: Per your post at #126 & #149, you are obviously a Sweden Democrat Nazi, or one of their supporters/sympathizers. You believe in your own lies and expect scholarly persons out here to believe in them too. We're only having a field day laughing at you. You say your stats are from the "UN" without ever providing us with the actual link to your information. I do love to play with Nazi boys, esp. when they get all riled up and start frothing at the mouth. One may infer that the "UN" you are referring to is the "United Nazis" of the world. Even Dr. Lynn and Dr. Vanhanen (a Finn), authors of the very controversial book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" only include Italy (#8) and Iceland (#9) in the Top Ten IQ's of the world, the other eight are all Asian nations with Hong Kong @ #1. So although I don't really support these authors and the whole notion of categorizing IQ's by nations/regions/races/ethnicities of the world, even they believe that the Asian race is far more superior than any other. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of-Nations
06:37 September 20, 2011 by t64

Very well spoken. As an American I have lived among various ethnicities and immigrant groups. There are some who will never fit in except in their subcultures. The parents come and are ever so grateful for the free stuff and a better future for their children. After a while they start trying to assert thei culture on the rest of us, not remembering that their culture is the cause of them fleeing their homeland. The children resent being different and feel inferior. They lash out at the native population. The politicians who cause this live far away. No government program can cure this. Even when the immigrants marry white, the children take on the identity of the nonwhite, with all the hostility.

I know this will subject me to name calling but my observation is generally true.
06:49 September 20, 2011 by rls976
@post 155

What are the "lies" I have told? Do you not have the intellect to look up the statistics? I gave the information, and cannot prevent anyone looking it up.

I give no links? See comment #100.

What exactly is "the Asian race"?? There are many. Incidentally, see my comment about oriental intellect in comment 126.

Whatever else can be said about you, you certainly do like to include a heaping dose of insult and mockery in your replies. In post after post you do it. You refuse to simply conduct a civil debate with people who disagree with you: You insist on villifying them. I disagree with you, therefore I am a villain.
12:08 September 20, 2011 by Not Dumb

Thank you for your appreciation and the Wikipedia IQ info, not to mention your comment upon rls976.

As to Northern and Southern Sweden, if one studies the findings as to where the Sweden Democrats and neo-Nazi strongholds are according to voting results, they pretty much follow where they were for Nazis in the '30s and '40s; namely, Southern and Central Sweden. The North has the lowest concentrations, but, I do agree that in all of Sweden 'a shift' has occurred where recent years have widely brought a newfound 'legitimacy' in the minds of too many for xenophobia, and one can sadly encounter SD or neo-Nazis, or their sympathizers, in areas beyond where they are concentrated. In my mind, however, the worst aspect of events is the 'unrealized' xenophobic perspectives that have recently developed in ordinary people across much of the political spectrum here, those on the far right of course exhibiting such conduct most strongly, but surprisingly, even many left leaning individuals often not being immune to this 'societal disease'.

It appears a 'new way' of perceiving 'outsiders', and Zandi's above article does also seem to suggest that ongoing xenophobia has spread widely, no longer being strictly limited by political borders. Of course, such conduct is a growing tragedy for all.

Here's Sweden's voting authority link for those numbers I cited, Sweden Democrats being of course SD...

14:16 September 20, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
@Not Dumb: I've read many of your posts out here and have to say that you have more going for you than what Sweden deserves. I feel for you as an American of mixed race who lived in Sweden during the 1970s. Yes, Sweden never really was a "neutral" and, in fact, was a terriffic instructor for Germany several generations ago. Thanks for the link. It's my bedtime now but I will read it when I wake up. Here's one for you:


This link totally contradicts many of the ignorant and racist assertions out here that race, ethnicity, nationality, and regions of the world determine one's IQ, and not the individual themself. For example, "the official position of the American Anthropological Association is that intelligence cannot be biologically determined by race." Read what the American Psychological Association has to say also on this link. So, why should I waste my precious time communicating with a "dummkopf" who believes in their own lies? A "Träumer" who cannot furnish us with a credible source because their "Kot" came from where the sun doesn't shine on their person.
16:14 September 20, 2011 by johnoleson

@Not Dumb

I've been following this dialogue with amusement and checking the links. I thought of a way to simplify the argument and strip from it political view and emotion. Substitute "height and body build" with IQ score and "family" with race. Would it be controversial to say that some families are generally taller than and leaner than others? Could a short stocky family rear some of their offspring to be more tall? Human diversity is a beautiful thing each having strengths and weaknesses, never equal outcomes.
16:34 September 20, 2011 by Not Dumb

Thank you, and it is unfortunate that in this day and age so many don't even get the message that Barack Obama's election sent. But, as you noted, one must take things from whence they come. And, I do indeed agree, the racist idiocy that's filled too many comments here comes from a place that 'stinks'.

Of course, a slightly different perspective upon such comments is one I provided myself, speaking in the psychological realm; namely...

According to Wikipedia...

A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence. Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, stupidity, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.

As I said, 'from whence it comes'...and one needs to be a lunatic to argue with a madman.
17:50 September 20, 2011 by rls976
The lead article in the June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy and Law, a journal of the American Psychological Association, examined 10 categories of research evidence from around the world to contrast "a hereditarian model (50% genetic-50% cultural) and a culture-only model (0% genetic-100% cultural)...

"Neither the existence nor the size of race differences in IQ are a matter of dispute, only their cause," write the authors. The Black-White difference has been found consistently from the time of the massive World War I Army testing of 90 years ago to a massive study of over 6 million corporate, military, and higher-education test-takers in 2001.

"Race differences show up by 3 years of age, even after matching on maternal education and other variables," said Rushton. "Therefore they cannot be due to poor education since this has not yet begun to exert an effect. That's why Jensen and I looked at the genetic hypothesis in detail. We examined 10 categories of evidence..."

Read the entire article at http://www.news-medical.net/?id=9530.
02:05 September 21, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
@Not Dumb: Exactly! Wikipedia does a good job defining words accurately, beyond what a dictionary has the capacity to do. Like you wrote, what's the purpose of arguing with a madman? Nazis make the same old mistakes over and over; the same old convoluted delusions, and this is why they lost the war. They could have won, just maybe, if they only admitted to the superior intelligence of INDIVIDUALS, instead of spreading myths about people, categorising, and persecuting people according to their race, religion, ethnicity, complexion, physical features, and nationality. Formulating assertions and conclusions based on one's individual intelligence and merits would have been far more beneficial for Germany. A shame, Germany, and the regions of Europe that it occupied, lost so many highly intelligent, educated, and talented individuals, people like Einstein, Niels Bohr, Paul Ehrenfest, Hans Bethe, Thomas Mann, and all so many more. I did read the stats on the Riksdag that you provided on that link. Sweden has WAY too many parties. Seems the Sweden Dems. gained from the Christian Dems.' loss between 2006 & 2010. But the fact remains, Sweden tolerates Nazis; Sweden would be wise in learning SOMETHING from Germany by outlawing the Sweden Dems.
03:23 September 21, 2011 by johnoleson
I hate to call a discussion an argument but that is where it has been taken. The name calling, (racist, nazi,delusional, lunatic, you might as well have called out stupid or fat) means no issue needs to be addressed, the one with the opposing view is bad. Is that where you go when you don't have a persuading point of view? You can attack the messenger but the message won't go a way.
09:52 September 21, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
Sverige Demokraterna i Riksdagen= N*A*Z*I Party, if you are in denial of this fact, that's your problem not mine. If my discussion with "Not Dumb" about a particular "so-and-so" out here has turned into such an "argument" for you, then why do you interject yourself into that "argument?" This is where you should have remained silent. Your "logic" in #160 is tantamount to a child's, and frankly, I'm all done raising children. You support delusional, lunatic Nazis who come out here and make disparaging racist comments, as well as provide spurious statistics with no credible source cited, other than to say they are from the "UN." This "person" claims in #157 that they did indeed cite their source for the stats in #115, claiming that the link is in #100, yet that is a report by the United Nations (not the United Nazis) on the "State of the World's Indigenous Peoples." Further, anyone who claims that ethnic Swedes, Norwegians, and Danes are "indigenous peoples" IS not only a lunatic, but also someone who is terribly delusional. You challenge ME out here, but not the delusional lunatic. You DO have a major problem as well by choosing to remain silent in challenging racist comments that this "person" made on this thread. The timeline and posts above prove that you remained silent, and silence (acquiescence) is not golden when it comes to racism. Have a ver "nICE' day.
10:42 September 21, 2011 by Dom har glömt
Western society is on the verge of distruction. Furthermore, why would you move to a country and complain about it? 165 How do you know that they are not indigenous? If they are or not, what is your point? You sound like a very racist person.
18:08 September 21, 2011 by rls976
@Dom har glomt

Your assertion is accurate, and your questions are valid. Read the following, and ask yourself whether the Swedish-speaking, ethnically Nordic/Germanic people of Sweden do not fit into this UN "statement of coverage". Were they not there at the time of "establishment of present state boundaries"? Not to mention numerous boundary changes and changes of the form of government.

The UN states the following:

"Peoples in independent countries who are regarded as indigenous on account of their descent from the populations which inhabited the country, or a geographical region to which the country belongs, at the time of conquest or colonization or the establishment of present state boundaries and who irrespective of their legal status, retain some or all of their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions."


In any event, if the white peoples no longer possess within themselves, the will to survive (much less thrive) as a people, then it is essentially all over anyway. And that is where we stand today.
22:50 September 21, 2011 by Not Dumb

All I can say is the celebrations of racism are apparent, and your outrage certainly understandable; but, beware of the far right 'Troll Kingdom' that we have here, the 'baiting' that they so often 'artfully employ'. And yes, just as Hitler was mad, I believe a form of madness is indeed what we see here. But, while 'anecdotal evidence' certainly suggests that many of these people are indeed limited by a low IQ, sadly some are not.

As the saying goes, 'crazy, but not stupid'. And, that's why they're so dangerous, and can indeed twist wrong into right...but, I guess that's why so many here voted for them, and much more of the society has even seemed to tacitly accepted many of their beliefs. But, like Freud, I too believe there are times when societal madness does exist.


May I point out that while you may not like the terms 'white supremacist', 'racist', or 'xenophobe', it is partially because they carry a strongly negative meaning for most people in most societies. But, what I do find curious, is that rather than attacking those who are celebrating the very things which such terms refer to, you criticize 'sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset' for his outrage at such celebration, celebration of what most on this planet indeed see as despicable.

While you may feel yourself superior by doing this, by truly criticizing style instead of substance, is this also not an old Swedish Democrat ploy? I do seem to recall The SD's Mr, Åkesson often seeking to portray himself as upon the moral high ground because of the 'style' of opposition to him, being also unable to successfully criticize its 'substance'.

Funny that you have taken the same route here, isn't it?
00:51 September 22, 2011 by rls976
How is the following for "racism"? Some will dismiss the following revelation as racism, but it is FACT.

In 2009, Hussein Obama got through the US Congress a nearly one-trillion dollar "stimulus" legislation. He marketed it as being intended to stimulate the US economy (an absurd proposition to begin with). Lo and behold it included an expenditure of $823,000 to teach negro men in sub-Saharan Africa how to wash their genitals after having sex! The idea to do this originated in the Obama administration. Congratulations US taxpayers. Your president putting your tax dollars to work! This is what you pay taxes to fund, isn't it?

Go ahead "Not Dumb" and "sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset". Call me a "racist", a "lunatic", a "Nazi" and all the other perjoratives you have already called me numerous times. Having made the preceeding revelation of fact, I know I have it coming - again.
02:30 September 22, 2011 by Not Dumb
RACISM: A symptom of the

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

12:23 September 22, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
@Not Dumb: Pay close attention to the writing style of "those" AFTER #145 (who was 'Lavaux,' who IS another individual), and "those" who have been responding to you and I thenceforth. VERY SIMILAR, except for "Chickybee, #147, whose post is too short for me to tell. Post #143, nathan45, intentionally makes spelling errors and intentionally types in the lower case, but the language and "philosophy" is the same as ris976, johnoleson, Dom har glömt, t64, and redfish; there may be even more aliases. The English and choice of words are NOT of a Scandinavian or Brit or Irish person: it is of a very disturbed and hateful American and NOT a Canadian. This person repeatedly responds to THEMSELF. Now take note of all their alias names: be on the lookout for them in the future. I do believe that unless we are able to decipher that there are REAL other individuals in this room, it's pointless to even respond to this person and their many different aliases. The Local WILL be changing their format soon to prevent this from occuring in the future. Until then, le'ts meet in a different room, one with a headline like drunken elks or something away from the issue of race. Let's leave this room for the truly demented; it's turned into an insane asylum since all the sane and erudite persons like Hawkings, BCIS, Ron Pavellas--and though I didn't always agree with her, AnnicaE--are gone.
15:11 September 22, 2011 by Not Dumb

I agree that the 'Troll Kingdom' may have less individuals in it that the amount of names suggest; but, some who are American and living here, plus some Swedes who have lived a long time in America, plus some who were simply educated in America, do have similar word patterns. It's important not to be 'sucked in' by the far right Trolls, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions either.

But, you are right -- it's absolutely a possibility that 'something is rotten' here, and in more ways than one. Sadly my friend, little would surprise me these days.

I need to study the comments a bit more it seems. Frankly, I've never done the comments like this before -- my time is a bit limited -- so I'm learning as I go. I came out for this topic as, especially given the nightmare I personally have been subjected to and endure still, it became apparent that it was past time to speak out.

Quite literally, virtually everything I own, plus my health, has been destroyed, destroyed by what are in my opinion criminal acts, but prosecutors and police here refuse to act. I can only speculate upon what some of those who are of color (I am white), some of those who are refugees from the Middle East or Africa, what they have encountered. I have met with conduct that does recall the 1930s for me, and it has been pursued by native born Swedes.

While Zandi doesn't explicitly say so in his article above, it would seem one may indeed legitimately say the perception of immigrants by too many native Swedes amounts to 'subhuman' status, a 'lesser species', and so these sorts feel legitimate in their abuse of immigrants accordingly.

What I have seen on occasion occur with others, and especially with what has happened to me personally, made it time to speak out on 'this issue'. The craziest thing is that I did NOTHING WHATSOEVER to provoke the abuse I've suffered, except being foreign born and living here. It really defines 'xenophobia' for one, and it wasn't this way when I first came here.
17:34 September 22, 2011 by johnoleson
@sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset #171

Have you so insulated yourself from contrary opinion that you find it unfathomable that more than one person could have a similar opposing view. As for some of the commentators possibly writing from America, get a grip, there are 300 million English speakers living there. There are more Swedes living in America than living in Sweden. Try to get out more and mingle with people. I hear the liberal view everyday of my life as I interact with others. Try doing the same and you won't be so shocked with differing views.

@ not dumb #172 I'm sorry you were the victim of crime and I would hope the authorities would do something to help, but to suggest there is no justice because of who you are is wrong. If victimhood is an ongoing theme in your life, I would advise you to examine yourself to see what needs to change.

Also to the both of you, this forum is not a one on one chat line, where you should be bothered by others discussing what you talk about, there are other forums for that (email).
18:59 September 22, 2011 by Not Dumb

I had earlier written regarding your perspective that:

"May I point out that while you may not like the terms 'white supremacist', 'racist', or 'xenophobe', it is partially because they carry a strongly negative meaning for most people in most societies. But, what I do find curious, is that rather than attacking those who are celebrating the very things which such terms refer to, you criticize 'sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset' for his outrage at such celebration, celebration of what most on this planet indeed see as despicable.

While you may feel yourself superior by doing this, by truly criticizing style instead of substance, is this also not an old Swedish Democrat ploy? I do seem to recall The SD's Mr, Åkesson often seeking to portray himself as upon the moral high ground because of the 'style' of opposition to him, being also unable to successfully criticize its 'substance'.

Funny that you have taken the same route here, isn't it?"

Now, I won't mention your 'cheap shot' about myself and if "victimhood is an ongoing theme in your life", but I'm not only 'Not Dumb'; but, my real name can be found in Wikipedia, I've been quoted in the US Congress, and -- as I wrote to 'sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset' -- this is my first time 'commenting' this way as my time is rather limited, only the topic prompting my participation. However, the remarkable thing is that given my circumstances, I too have endured here what I have.

The casual and insidious ways some feel free to insinuate the unflattering, the manner in which Zandi pointed towards how any negative "behaviour or conduct" that may exist in Sweden is "lumped together and attributed to immigrants", seems to suggest the kinds of blatant prejudice Mr. Zandi's article speaks of, the sickening degree of xenophobia some feel free to indulge (I won't mention narcissism).

Of course, Zandi does note that prejudice is encountered even if one is "a skilled professional", and I can personally attest to that. Zandi also stated that the "need to define 'the others' in order to strengthen a group's feeling of belonging is a well-known phenomenon and eminently written about within the field of social-anthropology", something that all those whose insecurity may have bred less than appropriate conduct in should note.

But, to return to even more substantive questions, if you are so enlightened, why is it that you criticize only those that criticize the espousing of 'white supremacy', 'racism', 'xenophobia', etc, and not those celebrating such despicable things? 'johnoleson', while IMHO Jimmie Åkesson and the SD are proud of you, my words to you are at an end.

End of conversation -- punkt slut.
19:22 September 22, 2011 by johnoleson
@not dumb Please come clean with me. I quote you "this is my first time 'commenting' this way as my time is rather limited". You commented this way in support of the article about Michael Moore, Americas icon of the extreme left politics in Hollywood, as if the Americans consider him mainstream. As for my comment on your victimhood I did not expect to instill such a reaction. I apologize.
01:19 September 23, 2011 by Not Dumb
'Is Breivik Insane? Mental Illness and Extreme Right-Wing Ideology'


An excerpt from this article reads:

"In terms of delusional disorder, sometimes the belief that someone starts out with is not particularly bizarre, and these people often get missed. Over time, it becomes apparent that what is going into their head is enormously wrong."…
20:36 September 23, 2011 by johnoleson
'Is Breivik Insane? No, he is calculating, rational, and extremely evil. He took full advantage by committing these wicked deeds in a country that has purged its justice system from real consequences for crime. He mocks Norway's leniency and is probably shocked at the solitary confinement he has thus far received. By declaring him mentally ill instead of evil implies he is a victim to be pitied.

By attacking the government sponsored youth political indoctrination summer camp he tried to hit his political foes in the heart but instead struck the heart of all humanity. Last century the question of what to do with him would have been a no brainer. What will it take to bring back the death penalty?
01:10 September 24, 2011 by Not Dumb
While many consider those of the far right as suffering from varying degrees of mental illness, and while anecdotal evidence suggests its members also suffer from disproportionately low IQ, not all of them are intellectually handicapped. IMHO, there is an old American expression to describe these -- 'crazy, but not stupid'.

As few in society would ever purposefully imbibe a poison, the far right has learned to coat its venom by surrounding it with a 'facade of reason', and in my opinion the Sweden Democrats excel at this.
05:34 September 24, 2011 by johnoleson
Many on the conservative side including the noted psychiatrist in this link consider liberalism a mental disorder due to the consistent failure of liberal programs. http://forthegrandchildren.blogspot.com/2008/02/noted-psychiatrist-says-liberalism.html

See also a best seller in America by the same name "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder" written by Michael Savage, an American national radio talk show host. Of course it is written in English. This is a must read.

Generally speaking, most extreme liberals consider conservatives evil and because of their insulated existence have many times never even met one let alone associated with one. On the other hand conservatives interact with liberals everyday and consider them perhaps naive but not evil.
07:45 September 24, 2011 by Rick Methven
"most extreme liberals consider conservatives evil "

Another typical American misuse of a word"

Liberalism means

a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.

How is that extreme?
11:47 September 24, 2011 by sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset
johnoleson=ris976=Dom har glömt=t64=redfish=nathan45
18:20 September 24, 2011 by Not Dumb
In this thread, I regret that I see IMHO an intereesting display of what appear the worst kinds of cynical manipulation that have arisen from certain participants, participants advocating far right beliefs and philosophies (ie, those of the Sweden Democrats).

In comment number 177, the commenter wrote "the government sponsored youth political indoctrination summer camp" to describe the Norway massacre site at what is widely referred to in endless media as either the 'youth summer camp', or 'summer youth camp'. Nowhere at this time does Google find the phrase 'youth political indoctrination summer camp', this phrase being one that obviously suggests rather negative (and inaccurate) things about the camp, and seems to have been coined by comment 177's author. Though, the way the comment was written, it appears the commenter was attacking Breivik's beliefs and defending social democracy; but, was it JUST A THIN FACADE OF SUCH, A FACADE BEHIND WHICH STANDS A FAR RIGHT AGENDA?

In comment 179, this same individual accuses that "most extreme liberals consider conservatives evil", and interestingly, this individual and another commenter of 'strangely identical views and words' are those that use the word evil by far the most, and I have personally never written it in my own comments here. But notably, while comment 179 seems to condemn the use of the word 'evil', that same commenter HAD THEMSELF USED THE WORD 'EVIL' IN COMMENT 177 about Breivik, and while I certainly won't dispute that Breivik is evil, I personally believe a greater issue is found in the way Sweden is being CYNICALLY MANIPULATED, IMHO, to the far right by some.

Too many far right comments here are woven of assorted fractions of truth, the conclusions suggested being far from fact. But, just as the far right found in the 1930s, if one repeats an untruth often enough, it can become the truth in the minds of too many.

Of course, the object of 'propaganda' is to establish lies as facts.

@sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset re your comment 181

21:43 September 24, 2011 by johnoleson
Hej rick medvin,

Perhaps leftist or Socialist would have been a more appropriate term instead of extreme liberal as the term liberal has become obscured from over usage. As for your worry about Americans on this forum, how many native born Swedes do you suppose read their local news in a foreign language? I can assure you bulk of The Local's readership do not speak Swedish as their primary language.

As for " johnoleson=ris976=Dom har glömt=t64=redfish=nathan45", I don't know what to say except I would hope through chatting that eventually johnoleson=ris976=Dom har glömt=t64=redfish=nathan45=not dumb=rick medvin=even sjuttiosjusköterskorpåsjukhuset. If I could even influence 15 of you out there my time spent would be worthwhile.

The phrase I used describing the youth camp was the way I see it and doesn't need google's endorsement. I also saw all of Breivik's victim's as just that, innocent victims who were tragically murdered. Please do not second guess my thoughts on these.

Is it a right wing conspiracy to think Sweden, Europe, and all of western civilization is heading down the road to destruction and if not adjusted will collapse?
23:22 September 24, 2011 by Not Dumb
I believe that in every person there exists a place of darkness as well as one of light, the problem being those who have embraced their dark side and actually celebrate it. Worse still, many -- if not most -- of those that do so remain unaware of what they have indeed become, unable to see themselves through eyes that are not so afflicted; thus, feeling no shame or guilt for their conduct,

A movie with Kate Winslet, 'The Reader', provides a good example of this.

I personally have what I am proud to term an 'extreme devotion' to the idea and principles of an open and democratic society, but what all of us must have if the 'the disease of the far right' is not to again sweep in epidemic proportions across Europe, is an appreciation of what the far right means, and the means it uses to turn others to the darkness it worships.

In 1928, the German Nazi party received only 2% of the vote, but by 1933 Hitler was Germany's Chancellor, the Great Depression widely credited with creating a willingness among the German people to listen to Nazi propaganda that centered upon scapegoating and hate. With today's Great Recession, the fact that Sweden Democrats -- a party with neo-Nazi roots -- are in Parliament provides sufficient statement in itself. The nature of many of the comments upon this thread emphasize the point, or, perhaps better put, the danger.
05:00 September 25, 2011 by johnoleson

Now see here, how tidy to dismiss the immigration debate as if you're either pro 3rd world refugee or you're a Nazi. Bear in mind you've repeated the often said lie about naziism being on the extreme right when in reality it is the right wing sector of the extreme communist left (Nazi-National Socialist Party) Remember the Nazis nationalized all the large businesses etc. The extreme right would be laissez-faire (free trade with no state interference)

I can assure you I don't happen to be associated in any way with the SD party. That said, why do no other parties want to address this issue? Has Sweden become a nation of cowards or do the Parties no longer reflect the will of the people? The Parties have become self-serving, serving only to stay in power. People in the SD Party aren't the only Swedes concerned about this issue. This concern is very large but not accurately

represented. A lot of us feel Sweden would be better served by working to help to fix Africa rather than bringing in a random lucky few to this great nation

with a proud heritage. If you think Africa can't be helped than neither can her people, but you are wrong.

While Sweden is under international pressure to take in her "fair share" of other people I thought of a simple story. Imagine being concerned about

a group of homeless people and instead of helping them get directed in building homes and providing them a way to feed themselves, I decided to take the lazy way out. I'll just move them in with my family. Well what would I do when they raped my daughters under my care, vandalized my family heirlooms that had great meaning to me and my family and then complained as I went to work everyday to provide for them that I was doing an unsatisfactory job. What would I do? Well if I was in the Swedish government

I'd move in more homeless.

Remember the news story of the Swedish woman who left her baby and pram unattended on the sidewalk in America. This lady wasn't a bad mother

by Swedish standards, she just took for granted the relative safety she enjoys in Sweden. As the demographics change so does the safety taken for

granted by Swedes. How comfortable does anyone feel wandering about Malvo?

My conclusion is I don't hate anyone but I choose my friends and have preferences with whom live with. Refuse to be a victim.

punkt slut
07:45 September 25, 2011 by Not Dumb
In reading many of the 'far right wing' comments here, one does indeed find a similarity. Beyond this, my only comment can be that "the object of 'propaganda' is to establish lies as facts", a 'cloak of reason' repeatedly used to obscure the far right's venom.
13:08 September 26, 2011 by astra2thor6
Firstly, I wish all the commentators would be concise, make their comments shorter and stick to the point. Those immigrants who find fault with either Swedish organizations, Swedish culture and social mores, and Swedes themselves should return to the countries from which they came. For those who want to understand Swedish mentality better I recommend that they read "Swedes, as others see them" by Phillips-Martinsson
08:25 September 27, 2011 by Not Dumb

Thank you -- your comment highlights a few of the very grave problems too many of Sweden's native-born have...though, that was obviously not your intent.

First, you simply deny the legitimacy of any criticism, then offer the critics 'the door'...now that's a way to address problems! Of course, some might also call it other things, perhaps even closed-minded, ignorant and rude.

I won't add that xenophobia is defined as a 'fear and hatred' of things foreign, though the stark defensiveness inherent in a 'love it or leave it' mentality does suggest the possibility of such a problem's presence.

Beyond such questions, the Phillips-Martinsson book was first published 30 years ago, republished as late as 20 years ago, and -- as evidenced by the Sweden Democrats Riksdag entry in 2010 -- Swedes and Sweden have changed just a 'wee bit' in the interim, and IMHO, not for the better.

For those that can read Swedish (or, 'Google translate' can be useful sometimes), a much better work on SWEDEN'S 'STRUCTURAL DISCRIMINATION' was published in 2006 ... http://www.ne.se/rep/politik-strukturell-diskriminering?popArticles=true THIS WORK ALSO SPEAKS TO THE TENDANCY TO 'BLAME THE VICTIM', SOMETHING WHICH COMMENT 187 OBVIOUSLY DOES, and I will add that discrimination -- particularly towards immigrants -- has substantively risen in recent years, the SD's 2010 Riksdag election providing a testimonial to that..

'astra2thor6', I hope I have been 'sufficiently concise', and have nothing further to say to you.

End of conversation -- punkt slut.
14:03 October 5, 2011 by motti
Where ever a British person travels in the world, people will be met who want to speak English. That is a fact. Even in France, my French is pretty bad, but I do try and find local people very helpful and yes, some even speak English.

Many years ago I worked in Scandinavia and met my Norwegian wife there, I went to friundervisningen later on and mastered spoke Norwegian, speaking two dialects. Vestlands form More of Romsdal and then Buskerud/Oslo. All the time people wanted to speak English, but I persevered and said "No, I don't follow English football, as I am Canadian. (I am English)

Afterwards in the UK, I would attend trade shows and meet a number of Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians who truly believed that I was Norwegian. I understand that Norwegian is supposed to be the easiest language for an English native speaker to learn. However, I believe Swedish is easier as all syllables are pronounced. Certainly, I found Danish much harder to understand, but with difficulty and their speaking slowly, I managed to converse.

When in France, I make a number of mistakes, sometimes quite funny and the French appear amused, but they at least are very polite about it. Don't worry about how you sound. just keep trying and you will improve.
07:02 October 7, 2011 by Not Dumb
As the 'Occupy Wall Street' movement sweeps America, a global longing for justice that began with the 'Arab Spring' can be seen in the 'American Autumn'. But while Sweden once seemed to me the 'closest place on earth to heaven', the same forces exist here as in much of the West, only here a darkness -- what I perceive as a ruthless far right influence -- has allowed them to travel further and faster than one might expect.

A 'friend' recently wrote me that: "A glowing appraisal of Sweden just appeared in the US media, the decidedly 'Right' side of it. The conservative magazine in question, 'The American Spectator', notes Sweden is -- in a number of ways -- effectively embracing what many term 'neoliberal reforms' even more than the US, singing Sweden's praises because of this.

The article ends by observing: Nonetheless, it's surely paradoxical -- and tragic -- that a small Nordic country which remains a byword for its (at times obsessive) commitment to egalitarianism has proved far more willing than America to give economic liberty a chance.

'Free Market Sweden, Social Democratic America' - from the decidedly 'Right-wing' magazine 'The American Spectator'


Of course, what isn't said in this article is how such reforms led to substantive societal pain, with too many today seen 'scapegoating' immigrants for that pain, and so keeping focus from the neoliberal reforms which cut the funding for the benefits that would have precluded both the pain and divisiveness now present. But with 70 billion kroner in income tax cuts alone, not to mention 'corporate welfare', at least society's most affluent members are happy.

I'll add that US Progressives would view praise from The Spectator as a sure indication they were doing the wrong things."

Not to be misunderstood, everyday I encounter kindness from some Swedes, and everyday I also encounter the worst kind of casual cruelty from others here. Sweden has always been an 'insular' society, but in the last years that has tended to draw a harsh line between those of Swedish ancestry and those not, as the above article describes.

I fear that to be of foreign origins here, given Sweden's far right influences, is to be 'subhuman in Sweden'...and just as an educated black man from America's North might have fared in a small town in the 1960s Deep South, in my opinion ones life is circumscribed by the cruelty and malice that was simply a 'way of life' for some Southerners of that period, or of Sweden today.
23:08 October 10, 2011 by johnoleson
Not Dumb,

You emigrated from America because it didn't measure up to your idealistic socialist views and then you found Sweden, which you thought to be a leftist paradise. When you encountered Swede's with contrary views to your own, you demonized them by putting them in a box as a neo-nazis, having therefore no need to consider their views.

It is no small wonder that you encounter so much opposition from your Swedish neighbors and acquaintances as your harsh views and complaints are considered odious to many. Maybe you would have been more happy in the old USSR had it not imploded because of it's unworkable policies. Your victimhood stops when you stop being a victim.
Today's headlines
Sweden can extend border controls, EU says
A police officer carrying out a check at Sweden's border with Denmark. Photo: Emil Langvad/TT

EU countries including Sweden should be granted permission to extend temporary border controls by a period of a further three months, the European Commission has decided.

Nobel Prizes
'I'd say he's arrogant but I'd be lying': Swedes on Bob Dylan
Bob Dylan performing in France. Photo: David Vincent/AP

Almost two weeks have passed since Bob Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature and he has yet to acknowledge the win. The Local asked Swedes what they think of the singer's silence.

Sweden cuts 2016 refugee forecast by thousands
A Swedish migration authority office in Stockholm. Photo: Maja Suslin/TT

The country has also slashed its prediction for 2017.

Swedish researchers plan new trucks for women drivers
File photo of trucks in Sweden. Photo: Thomas Johansson/TT

Could vehicles adapted for women attract more female truckers to the profession?

These stats show Swedish driving isn't so gender equal
File photo of a Swedish woman driving a car. Photo: Pontus Lundahl/TT

A new survey shows that few Swedish women get behind the wheel when driving with their male partner.

Revealed: Game of Thrones could be coming to Sweden
Game of Thrones cast members at the Emmy Awards in September. Photo: Jordan Strauss/AP

The producers of the hit show have asked for three rounds of location pictures of Swedish island Gotland.

Prime Minister to meet Swedish troops in Iraq
Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven and his Kurdish counterpart Nechervan Barzani. Photo: Henrik Montgomery/TT

Sweden's Prime Minister Löfven is set to meet Swedish troops in Iraq on Tuesday.

Swedish politicians wage war on winter time
Soon it will look like this on your way home from work in Sweden. Photo: Anders Wiklund/TT

Should Sweden stick with summer time all year round?

'Don't turn the Pope into a global teddy bear'
Sweden's Queen Silvia and Princess Leonore visiting Pope Francis in the Vatican last year. Photo: Henrik Montgomery/TT

It's time to hold the Pope to account and make sure he turns his words about reform into action, argues a minister of the Swedish Church ahead of Pope Francis' visit to Sweden.

Löfven: 'Sweden will double its number of troops in Iraq'
Stefan Löfven and Haider al-Abadi during the visit on Monday. Photo: Henrik Montgomery/TT

Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven has promised to double his country's number of troops in Iraq following a meeting with Iraqi counterpart Haider al-Abadi on Monday.

Sponsored Article
Last chance to vote absentee in the US elections
Property of the week: Kungsholmen, Stockholm
Sponsored Article
This is Malmö: Football capital of Sweden
The Local Voices
'I simply don’t believe in nationality'
Why we're convinced Game of Thrones is based on Sweden
Blog updates

6 October

10 useful hjälpverb (The Swedish Teacher) »

"Hej! I think the so-called “hjalpverb” (auxiliary verbs in English) are a good way to get…" READ »


8 July

Editor’s blog, July 8th (The Local Sweden) »

"Hej readers, It has, as always, been a bizarre, serious and hilarious week in Sweden. You…" READ »

Sponsored Article
Where is the Swedish music industry heading?
People-watching: October 21st-23rd
Sponsored Article
Why you should 'grab a chair' on Stockholm's tech scene
Fury at plans that 'threaten the IB's survival' in Sweden
Analysis & Opinion
Are we just going to let half the country die?
Angry elk chases Swede up a lamp post
Sponsored Article
Stockholm: creating solutions to global challenges
The Local Voices
'Alienation in Sweden feels better: I find myself a stranger among scores of aliens'
Sponsored Article
Swedish for programmers: 'It changed my life'
People-watching: October 20th
The Local Voices
A layover at Qatar airport brought this Swedish-Kenyan couple together - now they're heading for marriage
Sponsored Article
Top 7 tips to help you learn Swedish
Swede punches clown that scared his grandmother
Sponsored Article
‘Extremism can't be defeated on the battlefield alone’
Fans throw flares and enter pitch in Swedish football riot
Could Swedish blood test solve 'Making a Murderer'?
Sponsored Article
Stockholm: creating solutions to global challenges
Property of the week: Linnéstaden, Gothenburg
Sponsored Article
Why you should 'grab a chair' on Stockholm's tech scene
Swedish school to build gender neutral changing room
Sponsored Article
Where is the Swedish music industry heading?
People-watching: October 14th-16th
Sponsored Article
One expat's strategy for making friends in Stockholm
Man in Sweden assaulted by clowns with broken bottle
Sponsored Article
Nordic fashion in focus at Stockholm University
Nobel Prize 2016: Literature
Watch the man who discovered Bob Dylan react to his Nobel Prize win
Record numbers emigrating from Sweden
People-watching: October 12th
The Local Voices
'Swedish startups should embrace newcomers' talents - there's nothing to fear'
How far right are the Sweden Democrats?
Property of the week: Triangeln, Malmö
Sweden unveils Europe's first elk hut
People-watching: October 7th-9th
The Local Voices
Syria's White Helmets: The Nobel Peace Prize would have meant a lot, but pulling a child from rubble is the greatest reward
jobs available