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EU slams Sweden over family migration rights

TT/The Local/pvs · 22 Jun 2012, 07:30

Published: 22 Jun 2012 07:30 GMT+02:00

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The Commission issued a warning that Sweden, along with Austria and Germany, could face court action if they fail to act.

"In the absence of a satisfactory answer within two months, the Commission may decide to refer these countries to the Court of Justice of the European Union," the Commission warned in a statement on Wednesday.

The Commission pointed out that the EU's Free Movement Directive should have been adopted into national laws by April 2006 and that certain issues remained outstanding in some member states.

Infringement proceedings have previously been launched against a slew of EU countries, including Sweden, and a "third reasoned opinion" has now been sent to the country.

The Commission argued that it has identified 11 "issues of incomplete or incorrect transposition".

Key issues include the scope of Swedish law with regards to extended family members, which is deemed to be narrower than the directive.

Sweden is also accused of failing to "provide for a procedure to facilitate entry" or extended family members nor registration certificates, which are required by the directive.

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Furthermore Sweden has no system to provide visas to family members free of charge, which the Commission argued "places a high administrative burden on family members".

The Commission called on Sweden to act within two months and warned that it would "closely monitor" all EU countries regarding their compliance with the directive.

TT/The Local/pvs (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

09:55 June 22, 2012 by klubbnika
Sweden chose to facilitate immigration for the family members of the so called refugees instead. God knows for what purpose....
11:24 June 22, 2012 by Keith #5083

cheap labour for the jobs young Swedes don't want to do because they are not impressive 'job titles' ?
11:26 June 22, 2012 by rolfkrohna
No surprises there, Sweden is also in breach of the UN human rights declaration, they are preventing people from leaving the country with economic means, and likewise preventing them from returning. add the predatory taxes which is not returned to the resident by far, the corruption, legalised such, in the public sector, and the defunct pension system, people are by far not receiving what they pay for. Retirement savings are never returned, but confiscated. Not a good country to be in or with.
12:18 June 22, 2012 by jimmyjames
I will tell you what confuses the heck out of me : Israel is in the process of forcibly rounding up and deporting thousands of Sub-Saharan Africans, the primary reason is that the Israelis do not wish the ," ....Jewish character of the state of Israel to be diluted as Israel is for Jews and Jews only...." , the world says and does nothing agreeing with the Israeli premise; Japan aids impoverished countries all over the world, money, technology, medicine, food, ect. but absolutely does not allow the admission of immigrants or refugees because they will tell you quick, fast, and in no unceertain terms Japan is for Japanese, period. The world, the UN, everyone is fine with the Japanese position.....they have to be really because the Japanese think to allow a flood of non-Japanese or even a little trickle, to be utterly insane. The same as opening your family home to dozens of complete strangers. The Russians, the Chinese and others take very similar positions. Everyone is "cool" with it...... Tell me WHY ?? it is only predominatly Caucasion, European, Christian nations that are CONSTANTLY AND AGGRESSIVELY ORDERED to take in thousands of people who are racially, culturally, religiously, and politically different in an extreme degree ??? And if there is any complaint or reluctance are immediatly labeled as racists, nazis, bigots, and all manner of vile names. Do we, as Caucasions, of Western European Ancestory, as Christians, as Democrats, not have the right to preserve the survival of our culture, of our "tribe", of our heritage ???? Why must we commit national and racial suicide.....because make no mistake if things as they are now allowed to continue for another just 50 years WE, as an individual peoples, will not exist.
12:20 June 22, 2012 by Takea chance onme
And don't even get me started on the A-Kassan they only care about refugees but their own citizens can't get help.I doubt anything will be done about this because they just don't care end of story.
12:25 June 22, 2012 by theibmsstate
Refugees don't get money from sweden, refugees get money from their states.i dont know why immigrant come to sweden,swedish people are also jobless and they do cleaning and newspaper jobs in sweden. SAAB and VOLVO is already sold,now just potatoes and strawberries are waiting for selling.
12:26 June 22, 2012 by johan rebel
The European Commission has criticized Sweden for failing to comply with EU regulations on the free movement of EU citizens and their family members

"Furthermore Sweden has no system to provide visas to family members free of charge"

So nationals of which EU countries need a visa for Sweden?
12:50 June 22, 2012 by Breizh
@jimmyjames Your comment is a sad joke. Please leave whatever country you are living in for Russia, China or Israel and enjoy the regimes you are praising.
13:11 June 22, 2012 by sobhan
@jimmyjames you are an HONEST man and I agree with you
13:16 June 22, 2012 by tigger007
you really don't want this freedom to travel without some type of controls.Some people abuse this kind of law to get all kinds of people here.this keeping up with the Jones(North America) has gone too far.why should Sweden not have some say in the influx of people coming to Sweden?if Sweden does not have a place for these people why bring them in? it's time to be honest and say NO,but with a good heart in mind when doing so.
13:24 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
If they come from Somalia, Eritreia, Iran, etc... no problem entering the country.

Sweden only gives a hard time to EU citizens to come in to the Country and work honestly.

Even opening a bank account is a nightmare.
13:26 June 22, 2012 by Breizh
Then as Swedish voters it is your choice. I just add two links so you can check what international treaties your country signed and shall be suppressed and what model you are aiming at. Good luck with your move.


13:26 June 22, 2012 by TG22
@jimmyjames: Well said, mate...
13:32 June 22, 2012 by Old Trafford
@johan rebel, there are a lot of persons whose parents, wives or kids are passport holders of non-EU countries. Under EU treaty, they shouldnt have to pay for visa to visit/migrate to any EU country where their relatives live
13:39 June 22, 2012 by Svensksmith
But Jimmy, kebabs, mate, kebabs.
13:58 June 22, 2012 by theibmsstate
jimmy you are right
14:27 June 22, 2012 by dizzy09
Ahhhh! There is nothing like immigration to get peoples´ hearts pumping again :)
14:50 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

That's because you and many others have no information about the situation of refugees in other countries. In Iran alone there are two millions refugees from Afghanistan and Iraq. But Iran gives nothing to them except the fact they will not be killed by bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq. So you may argue that Sweden or European countries help refugees a lot but the number they receive is absolutely negligible in comparison with the neighboring countries of the effected country.

On the other hand, in a healthy economical system like Sweden the more people the stronger the economy. Maybe you and me do not care about this but some politicians do! ;)

As for Israel, I cannot remember last time they respected any UN or Int'l treaty that it can be the second one!


It is only you and your family who work in this country and everyone else are sleeping bums :)
15:02 June 22, 2012 by theibmsstate
@Iranboy Irani government takes all the refugees money in their pocket. Dont compare Iran with EU. i know how irani people are in Europe.i know Irani people mentality, Irani people come to EU as refugee and create much problem.why not you go back to Iran, why you are staying in sweden, 99% refugees iran and iraq creates problem in Sweden and in EU. @irani boy why dont you go to iran, why your staying in sweden what is your right.
15:08 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
@ Iraniboy

Actually I am working today in the office, altough it´s a national holiday and most people are relaxing.

What are you doing?
15:43 June 22, 2012 by andy_so
as an EU citizen, i have been through hell and back to move to sweden...

i hate migrationsvercket with every fiber of my being!

im honestly not surprised... im sure there are many more things that they do that are against EU regulations.

and FYI to the partial truth spreaders:

israel is deporting only people from the new coutntry of south sudan. they are not citizens and their visas (if at all, since most of them are paperslosa) are temporary.

the civil war there is over and there are no more legal-international contraindications to deport them. the erythreans and north sudanese remain for now...
15:55 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

You seem to have ready problem. Did I say what Iran does to refugees?! Did I approve what Iranian do outside Iran? You are a little a bit paranoid. I'm in Sweden because the number of paranoid people, like you, are a little bit too much back in Iran and elsewhere! Besides I am asked to worked and stay and I like it :) Has anyone ask you stay in Sweden, do that!


I got a letter from our divisions secretory yesterday that we should not come to worked and doors are close :)
16:29 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
@ Iraniboy

Divisions secretory?

Never heard of that Taxi Company. Must be an underground one.
16:34 June 22, 2012 by MikeKams
I can't find anywhere in the article mentioning refugee family members... is it only refugees people who have family members in need to travel within EU countries. I think some of the commentators here need to grow up.

@JimmyJames, do you know anything about COLONISATION? Are you sure they aren't European immigrant in Africa or in third-world Asia ?
16:45 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

No! It is an underground company with a lot of sleeping bums working in it. I had told you :)

By the way I'm apologize anyone reading my previous comment(#22) with all those typos and misspellings! I can hardly read it myself!
16:55 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
@ Iraniboy

I couldn't care less where people come from as long as they are honest working people and obey the local law.

What I see in this country is that EU Citizens that want to live here get a load of paperwork to fill from the authorities. It's a nigthmare. I been through it and know of worse cases than mine. I got to prove to the authorities i could support my kids or they would not be granted residence here. We are all EU Citizens. What the hell is this.

Yet, thousands of non EU-Citizens come here and are imediately granted permissions and work and get benefits from the system without a problem.

That's all i´m saying. Nothing more.
17:28 June 22, 2012 by theibmsstate

I am EU citizen,i am not paranoid like you. if you open your eyes and see what you wrote in your article about refugees.you should like iran and work there not EU.
17:31 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

All that paperwork you are talking about is tripled if the person is from a country outside EU so the relation is still fair. There are too many rules which are basically designed to discourage people to get a job in Europe. For example, a person who finds a job in an European country cannot even file an application for work permit if he is there with a visa! He should return to his home country to do so!

By the way, you are comparing two completely different things. Refugees are granted resident permit not for their qualifications, rather for their risk of being killed if they return. Now if they tell the truth or lie, is another story.

Finally, I believe that the paperwork in Sweden is relatively lower than any other country I know in Europe, North American and Australia.
17:51 June 22, 2012 by plswun
American married to a Swede. Had a job before and after I was granted permission to live and work in Sweden. STILL some of the practices applied to this situation by Migrationsverket are rediculous. I could see extended family having problems with getting visas but immediate family should be granted entry or permission to live and work immediately. Considering than some people, no matte the nationality, have no problem being here illegally, they should be granted the right to work and live instead of being a drain in the economy. I think that if you are grante the right to work and live then you should not be allowed to collect unemployment benifits unless you are disabled. Watch how many people would leave the country then.
17:59 June 22, 2012 by theibmsstate
1st Priority should be EU citizens than American,Australian at the end students from 3rd world countries and arab countries.but i can see most of EU and american and 1st class citizens are spending their life much better than others in sweden.

many people from 3rd world country want to stay in EU to earn good money and for good future they dont go back to their home country.
18:06 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

Hahaha you are priceless! :D You said "I am EU citizen,i am not paranoid like you". I'm afraid to inform you that being an EU citizen doesn't immune you from being paranoid :D I'm actually more convinced now that you are paranoid.

I can only suggest you one thing. If you are really interested to have a job and an ordinary life in Sweden, you should forget about the ideas you mentioned in the previous comment. It is considered barbaric and bigotry here! I'm just saying!
18:27 June 22, 2012 by cogito
Anyone know why Sweden is dragging its feet on implementation of the E.U. "Blue Card"--work permits for highly qualified migrants.cards.

In July 2011, the European Commission sent letters of formal notice (the first step of the infringement procedure) to Sweden concerning their failure to notify the Commission of measures taken to implement the cards.
18:27 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
@ Iraniboy

I actually agree that the paperwork for non EU citizens should be triple.

We need to have severe laws to protect the EU countries against illegal immigration. Our ancestors work hard to build this continent and it´s societies and we need to protect it´s way of living.

Sweden is in the EU and signed treaties about these issues and apparently, as the article says, is not being true to those treaties and making life difficult for us and our families as if we were not EU citizens and the EU courts are on the issue now as the article says.

So aparently many EU people are rightly complaining, just as i did. We have still too much paperwork to fill and it´s not fair for a EU citizen.

If Sweden wants to treat the EU citizens like non-europeans, than get out of the EU altogether.

I completely disagree with you about the paperwork on other EU countries. I been in several and know people from several and Sweden is by far the most complex one to deal with regarding migration paperwork inside the EU.
18:37 June 22, 2012 by theibmsstate
@irani boy

i know what is the education system in iran,i can understand your frustration that you cant get all the benefits what EU citizens are getting.you came to sweden for your good future and free education.you have finished your studies you should work for your country.i can understand that many iranis want to have good future in EU but try again again again but at the end you will get nothing.i hope one day you will go back to iran.
18:49 June 22, 2012 by 4254

> Our ancestors work hard to build this continent and it´s societies

are your ancestors from Russia/Soviet Union? I think the russians who paid ~20 million lives during WW2 for "this continent ant its societies" did the actual hard work, not people from Sweden.
18:55 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
@ 4254

I think you will find that the Soviet regimes killed many more of it's own countrymen than W.W.2 did, but that's a completely different subject and has nothing to do with the topic.
19:00 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

Europe is big continent. If you think what your ancestor did in your country of origin has caused any benefit in Sweden, then you are totally wrong! You think you can ask for more since you are an EU citizen and but non-EU citizens should even get less. It is up to Swedes to decide on that and you have no right more than to say how it should be.

Yeah I think Sweden should follow the treaties they have signed and I'm more than sure that they will do. As a matter of fact most of these refugees come due to UN treaties!


Now you are talking! First of all. I'm not frustrated. Actually I've got all benefits an EU citizen gets from Swedish education system and I'm glad for that. As a golden rule I'm telling you that you should not work or study in a country for the sake of the country rather for the people you know from there. I have been asked many times to work here and Norway from people I like and I've being treated like a king so far. So there is absolutely no logical ground for me to work elsewhere. Just to have old contacts with friends I go back to Iran every year too. You are stuck in the world of "names of countries" but in fact we live with people not countries!
19:03 June 22, 2012 by 4254
@ Zombie

what Soviet regime did to its people is a totally different story.

you are saying "Our ancestors work hard to build this continent and it´s societies".

The point here is that Soviet Red Army freed the Europe from Hitler. This was the actual base for Europe's current wealth. In the light of this, i am really wondering, what your ancestors actually did to "to build this continent and it´s societies"?
19:16 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
@ 4254

Actually the base for the current model of modern european society we have comes from the principles of the French Revolution, way before WW2.

The allies defeated Hitler, not Russians alone.
19:23 June 22, 2012 by theibmsstate

if you are patriotic why not you work for iran?

you want to work in EU to earn good money, facilities etc. in iran you cant get good money and good facilities like EU, this is main reason,
19:29 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

I'm not patriotic and I cannot care less to build any country! I just enjoy helping people wherever I can!

Sure I earn a lot of money and enjoy using the facilities and I'm asked to do so by the hosts in Sweden! So I should be an idiot to leave this situation! Besides I think it has nothing to do with other EU citizens as they are not my hosts!
19:30 June 22, 2012 by 4254
@ Zombie

>Actually the base for the current model of modern european society we have

>comes from the principles of the French Revolution, way before WW2.

probably yes. but do you think Adolh Hitler followed the same principles in all details?

>The allies defeated Hitler, not Russians alone.

without help from US and UK it would have definitely taken longer time and costed more lives for the the Red Army alone. however, "the allies" joined WW2 in Europe only in 1944 when Red Army was entering Europe as well and German army was practically retreating.

but what about your ancestors? or what other Swedish people did for the formation of "the principles of the French Revolution"? what actually people of Sweden did for the modern wealth of the continent?
19:36 June 22, 2012 by Zombie

Well, my ancestors actually fought and died in WW1 and WW2, since you ask.

As for Sweden, how many money are they throwing for bailouts of weaker EU economies?

I think the Swedes are doing much for EU economy in the last 30 years.
19:43 June 22, 2012 by 4254
@ Zombie

>Well, my ancestors actually fought and died in WW1 and WW2, since you ask.

Thank you very much for your answer. Mine too. Were your ancestors actually from Sweden?

>I think the Swedes are doing much for EU economy in the last 30 years.

really? i thought the Germans have actually been doing the EU economy.
19:50 June 22, 2012 by Zombie

Nope. No swedish family on my side... so far.

>really? i thought the Germans have actually been doing the EU economy.

Throw the French in the mix and I can't argue about that.

But I´m sure you know what i meant.
19:53 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

Your ancestor's contribution in WWI and WW2 gives you more right in Sweden?

My ancestors built the Persian corridor so allies could send weapons and aids to Russians in WW2 otherwise they couldn't make it in front of Germans. I guess in case of ancestor we both have similar contribution to the well-being of Sweden, although I couldn't care less!


You should wake up and see that today's world is not the world of ancestors. Since 60 years ago, we can travel from Iran to Sweden within 4-5 hours and that has changed all these geographical issues to a great extent.
20:00 June 22, 2012 by Zombie
@ Iraniboy

There is much more than geographical distance that divides our cultures.

That has not changed and probably never will.
20:02 June 22, 2012 by esvahnt
i dont think the non european emigration is positive whether they have become "legal" or illegal

there should be a plan to send them back to their origin

sweden has allready mixed too much

culturally as much as racially

being the racial the more pervasive by far
20:06 June 22, 2012 by 4254
@ Iraniboy

>My ancestors built the Persian corridor so allies could send weapons

>and aids to Russians in WW2 otherwise they couldn't make it in front

>of Germans. I guess in case of ancestor we both have similar

>contribution to the well-being of Sweden

you are quite a funny guy, Iraniboy.

>You should wake up and see that today's world is not the world of ancestors.

>Since 60 years ago, we can travel from Iran to Sweden within 4-5 hours

>and that has changed all these geographical issues to a great extent.

There are so many signs that people did not change much over these 60 years. it is still good to remember ancestors and know the history.

@ Zombie

>No swedish family on my side...

20:11 June 22, 2012 by Baroness.Fredericks
I agree with jimmyjames. He is a man who cares about Sweden and losing Sweden for the sake of political correctness. Through history and the evolution of man, we have all had ancestors who settled in their various parts of the world which gave them their characteristics, their cultures, customs, beliefs and languages. There has been a take over, a dominating group of very manipulative, wealthy men, who have a plan to make this planet " a one world order led by them, the very few, making all the people of the world slaves to their will. This EU is part of it. T'is there intent to bring in and floor Europe with so many immigrants that the Europe we all knew will soon vanish right before our eyes. No longer shall we see our nations. We shall see one very mixed, or blended mess. It no longer matters what patriotic Swedes, Germans, Dutch, English, or any other people want, because they are being systematically fazed out. Yes, if you go against the EU you will lose, because no matter what you do, you have already lost your Countries, to bankers, to politicians who will do anything to get re-elected, and to those behind the scenes who are really pulling all the strings. Poor Sweden, a land that was once known for beautiful blondes and courageous vikings is lost. Muslims seek blondes now to use in prostitution, mainly in Turkey and elsewhere. Whilst immigration is defended by lawyers and the EU, your National pride exists no more. Not even the Royal Families of Europe have any power to stop this. They are used as pawns and puppets to put on a show for tourists. May God save Sweden for Swedish people, as it always has been! Until now. The same is happening in all Scandinavian Countries and all over the world!
20:19 June 22, 2012 by esvahnt
the problem with the mixing of the race is that we human beings have evolved differently throug the course of time

those who descend from darker or different face features origins should not be allways seeking to whiten themselves up

because i allways see and is also evident they all the time trying to seduce european like people to breed whitened babies (mixed)

that is plain and fanatic racism
20:26 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

I agree that there is a big cultural difference and from my personal experience I should admit that the cultural difference between Sweden and any other non-Scandinavian European country like France or Italy is far more than between Iran and Italy or France. By the way I really like and enjoy this cultural difference, don't you?!


Thank you :D


Thanks for you input. I guess you haven't disclosed your ideas to a given randomly selected Swede in a real life to see how they react to your proposal :D
20:39 June 22, 2012 by esvahnt

i think coming to sweden to work and produce for the country is positive

the problem is the gigantic scale to what it has become

im shure any middle east country would consider such a big emigration rather as an invasion

sweden could do a lot better to help people in need by helping them with money delivered directly to their countries instead of bringing them to our living room
20:51 June 22, 2012 by Iraniboy

I think Swedes have a very good democratic process to make any necessary change for helping those they think need help.

Invasion? As a matter of fact, two millions Afghans have come to Iran which has a population of 70 millions. Not only I do not consider it invasion, but also I criticize Iranian authorities for not doing enough to help them settle in Iran although some Iranians may not agree with me.
00:37 June 23, 2012 by esvahnt
the swedish authorities (not all of them )tend to favor the vanishing of the original swedish culture

a principal part of the culture is the race

since races are families .phisically and genetically they came from the same root a first adan and eva

the swedish race has been preserved unmixed since the times of vikings

not at this moment this a decisive peak in the swedish history (and all the europeans descendants in the world)

the white family all over the world can dissapear for ever
03:12 June 23, 2012 by mcjensen
i want my tax money spent on refugees back


1. you're full of c**p. bone up on your logic and political science before talking about irrelevant s**t.

2. swedish politics ain't your politics. you got no grounds to even suggest whether or not they should do anything. mind your own business.
08:39 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia
Following what historically and presently Caucasians have subjected the following indigenous people to: Australian aborigines, New Zealand Maoris, South/North American Native/Red Indians, the Canadian Eskimos, the Sami of Scandinavia, the Bantu of South Africa, the Nubians of East/North Africa and the Negroes of West Africa, one would expect to see smarter comments on here.

If history serves us right, the Caucasians as a race have single handedly brought the greatest distortion in the terrestrial order! Just to mention a few, SOME OF THEIR ATROCITIES INCLUDE: Invading stable societies and stealing lands from natives*** e.g. Australia, New Zealand, USA, Canada, Brazil, South Africa etc.; Trading them as slaves e.g. Ghana, Nigeria, Liberia, Cameroun etc.; Raping their women e.g. Angola, Cape Verde, Egypt, Morocco, Libya etc.; Imposing their religions (introducing the white Jesus) especially in Sub Saharan Africa; demeaning traditions, destroying records and erasing grounded history; and suppressing them for life while stealing their natural resources and imposing developmental conditionalities. Moreover, to some degree they actually introduce diseases to wipe out some of these populations and created the one biggest enemy of peace: the AK 47!

Thus it is funny how they are pretending to be the most victimized, and so vulnerable to immigration that they want immigrants out! Think about it, if all Caucasians were to go to their 'origins lands' where would they go? All of a sudden they are afraid of extinction? Have they sat down to consider perhaps the small tribes they themselves have driven to extinction?
08:46 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

Thanks for your very insightful and logical analysis of something that doesn't exist!I I never suggested they should do something! Democracy in Sweden works pretty well and doesn't need our suggestions. As a matter of fact I can vote in all Swedish elections except parliament! Besides I also want my tax money spent on you back :D
09:26 June 23, 2012 by theibmsstate

i agree with you,iraniboy you want your tax money back,but you got that facilities in sweden pay facilities money back to sweden 1st.
10:24 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

I didn't say I want all my taxes back! I said I want the amount spent on mcjensen!

Pay money back to Sweden? Who is Sweden?! The facilities I used was spent by everyone working in Sweden including me and all Swedes I know are happy with it!

You can see that the whole tax argument we have is ridiculous. You cannot ask for you taxes back when you use other people's taxes. I just wanted to show how lame this claim is!
11:31 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Lumneia

I'm sick of people like you with an obvious political agenda spreading such false propaganda! How dare you lump all Caucasians in the same boat? Vile racism is what it is!

The majority of European nations and people have NEVER gone outside Europe to pursue colonial empires / subject indigenous populations outside of Europe to colonization and abuse. The Icelanders, Irish, Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Romanians, Slovaks, Czechs, Austrians, Swiss, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Albanians and Slavic Macedonians have all NEVER gone outside the boundaries of geographic Europe to pursue colonial empires! So stop lumping all Caucasian (or in this case White/European as Caucasian also refers to Georgians, Armenians, Turks, Arabs, Iranians, Afghans, etc) people in the same boat. Not all Europeans are English, Dutch, French, Spanish or Portuguese! You can blame English, Dutch, French, Spanish and Portuguese people all you want, but please don't blame the rest of us!
11:40 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
I second towns' comment!

@ Lunneia (#58)

Oh yes, only the Europeans are to blame, because Idi Amin never expelled South Asians from his country, the Mongols never wiped out the Indo-European-speaking peoples of Central Asia, Emperor Aurangzeb never caused massive devastation to the Hindu people of the Indian subcontinent, the Malays never enslaved the black people of Madagascar or the Arabs black Africans, the Turks never enslaved the Balkan peoples or caused an Armenian genocide and the Japanese never committed atrocities during World War Two to the Chinese and Filipino people amongst many others, am I right?

History is full of atrocities committed by different peoples towards others and to blame one group as being solely responsible for everything is nothing but racism!

(Nothing like immigration to get people all fired up on the Local, eh?)
11:47 June 23, 2012 by towns
My comment was directed at #58 ("Lunneia") not at "Lumneia" spelling mistakes do happen ;)

Anyway, I didn't mean to sound harsh in my initial comment. It's just that as Svealander points out, playing the "blame game" is easy enough when you selectively ignore other historical facts. It's best to just grow up and learn from past mistakes.

And yes, the immigration debate is certainly a hot topic, yesterday morning I checked into the Local, this article had no comments. Today, 60+, yikes!
11:55 June 23, 2012 by mkdh
i think error that sweden does not choose the right people to come and settle in sweden, for exampe iraqes have thier own country ,also irane, people and somalians they all have thier own countries despite they have problems still they have a land and they can livein it, but ironically palestinien people who have lost thier land and suffring for more than 60 years are not eccepted to live here are refugees, migration baord should think againe about that, nowadys the whole world is from bad economy and dectatorship and sweden ca not save the whole world ,but the goverment should choose wisely.
14:04 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia
@Towns and Svealander

Typical of Caucasians, always sharing the blame to look good!

If you are believe there is bias in my assertion then please answer this question in one word:

Which RACE has single handedly brought the GREATEST DISTORTION in the terrestrial order?

Please note the emphasis on 'race' and 'greatest distortion'-implying that other races have done some ruthless things to others and even to their own kind, but you will be surprised to know where the motivation came from! So fellas, you are definitely missing the point here. Seems you have not been living in this world for ages! Welcome back! Otherwise my advice to you: stop running backwards from reality in order to boost up your ego and cover your personal guilt. Don't you smell self -indignity in your nostrils after you read my comment? Do you know why you reacted that way to my comment? If not let me tell you why? It is because everything in this world is about racial superiority, then the rest follows! That's just how the Caucasians have made it! Just do a bit of a case study research*(based on grounded theory and systems analysis) into the effect of race on employment, housing, salary/benefits, immigration, sentencing, healthcare and infrastructure etc. on the local level, and immigration, assistance, and media reporting on the global level. Use Sweden as a case for the purpose of generalization; you will get a clearer picture of what I am asserting about Caucasians (even though not so shocked what you find).

Most policies in Sweden aim at keeping immigrants at the lowest bottom of the social ladder in order to boot the egos of the numerous high school graduates (who can't even influence appropriately and seek no further education) and wannabe punks! WHY DO YOU THINK SWEDEN TAKES IN ONLY A SPECIAL GROUP OF IMMIGRATS and relegates them to the flanks? And another to support the technology industry?


You claim that NOT ALL CAUCASIANS have gone outside the boundaries of geographic Europe to pursue colonial empires! Please do not skew my analysis to one side…The crux of my argument is that all people would have a gene for the 'racism 'trait in question here, but Caucasians have a specific allele of that racism gene, which results in the trait variant and makes them the race that has brought the most distortion to the geographic order. Perhaps you have forgotten how much you have evolved in the last 5 centuries. This evolution is hinged on greed and self-interest, not equality. So yes the countries you mentioned did not steal lands as Caucasians, but here is a saying which goes like this: The one who throws a stone at you and misses not as annoying as the one advising him on how to take a better shot! How they treat other races in their countries is equally appalling and that's my point. Now let's bring in how some of these so called countries you mentioned treat the ROMANI PEOPLE or the Gypsies for instance?
14:41 June 23, 2012 by theibmsstate

where you come from?? what is your origin?
15:02 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Lunneia

Well aren't you something. First of all, I'm not technically "white" since I was born in Canada and am part indigenous ("Kawawachikamac and Matimekush forever") I also have some Tatar ancestry, specifically Lipka Tatar ancestry but you wouldn't know what that is unless you consult wikipedia now, would you?

Secondly, for you to claim that Caucasians have a specific "racist gene" is interesting. What do they call that again, oh yeah eugenics and scientific racism. You might want to ask the National Socialists of Germany how that worked out for them. Perhaps you are in the same camp? Your obvious hatred of all things white and blaming the "white man" for your problems is actually scarily reminiscent of how the Nazis blamed the Jews for all society's ills. You are trigger happy to blame a "racist gene." Disgusting.

"Why do I think Sweden only takes in a special group of immigrants?" Hey, they took in me. Last time I checked, they took in Assyrians, Afghans, Somalis, Chileans et all. Hardly sounds like a "select group" to me, but then again I don't see you blaming the Japanese for avoiding taking in Third World immigrants, The Chinese for refusing to give jobs to Indians or Sub-Saharan Africans or the Israelis kicking out Africans from their country. Or the new Libyan government placing Africans in cages, or the Zimbabweans abusing their white farmers quite the double standard coming from you, I must say.

Thirdly, your assertion of "race" is flawed. There are no distinct races at least not from a genetic point of view, just as there are no "ethnic" groups from a genetic point of view. Take the Berbers from North Africa for example, some like the Riffians appear "Caucasian" and others like the Tuaregs appear "African" yet if you look at their genetics you'll find they are not "White or Black" but rather a combination of N1, U6, L0, etc. This mixture of genes is true for every ethnic group in the world from the Swedes to the Mapuche or perhaps once again you need to consult wikipedia for reference?

If you want to combat racism perhaps you should look in the mirror and stop with your nancy boy fear-and-guilt tactics. Yes, the Roma people are treated poorly in say, Bulgaria but to say all Bulgarians are anti-ziganist due to the actions of a collect few individuals is like saying all Africans are murderers for their violence against albinos (look it up) or that all modern-day Maoris are "guilty" because their ancestors were cannibals. Grow up.
15:14 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
@ Lunneia

Good grief, I guess we have a new racist on the Local.se! Some of the regular racists on here will be quite pleased to have company!

You are seriously claiming that "Only Caucasians are capable of atrocities" and then when I bring up counter-examples you say I'm skewing your argument? Are you serious or are you just trolling? No darling, it's not called "skewing your argument" it's called proving how flawed and incorrect your argument truly is, or perhaps you can't handle that?

BTW you keep saying "Caucasians this and Caucasians that" what is YOUR definition of Caucasian darling? Are the Sami Caucasian? How about the Komi or the Mordvins? Are the Uzbek Caucasian? Or the Hazara people? What about the Somalis or the Berbers? Or the Uyghurs? I've heard Somalis and Berbers identify themselves as Caucasian, are you saying they're wrong? Please, give me a break.

Stop being caught up with race and just enjoy your life, enough with the agendas. Seriously.
15:37 June 23, 2012 by theibmsstate
welldone svealandar
15:40 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
@ theibmsstate

Thank you! If there's one thing I can't stand it's obnoxious racists with an agenda, doesn't matter from what "race" they come from!
16:23 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia

Now that I clearly get the kind you are: a wanna be Caucasian! It doesn't surprise me one bit that you struggle to redeem the callous records of Caucasians. After all you are not 'technically' white right? I don't need Wikipedia to know that you have dyed your hair blonde before, worn blue contacts or are considering it!

What have you been drinking this beautiful day? Can't you see all my arguments are against separatism and eugenics, scientific racism or whatever you choose to call it? Can't you see that my reaction to most of the comments on here is out of desperation to curb a malignancy? I am plainly refusing to give in to the fact that with 'Caucasian's being how they are by nature', the theory of an unprejudiced and equal world-- where everyone is free to do what they want-- is highly impossible. I don't hate anything white, I hate that people still worry about anything that doesn't look like them in 2012. I love everyone equally, that's why I have travelled the world extensively and have come to the conclusion that the Caucasians are the most pretentions and phony when it comes to racial equality. I am not blaming the "white man" for my problems, I blame the white man for the global problems, and for stalling a simple process that could make the world a better place, and people like you don't help! Why is it that the color of our skin matters so much? That the question my mixed twins asked me and have always failed to answer…because I just don't know what to say!!!

"Did you perhaps marry a swede to get into Sweden? Voila!!! And what is your occupation? You are either into construction, IT of a cleaner right? Hey before you oversimplify the reason why you are here, why don't you profile your cited Assyrians, Afghans, Somalis, Chileans etc. and see how they fit into the bigger picture! This squabble here is not meant for the myopic, but with you I can rung a notch! People are basically let into Sweden to do to the kind of stuff Caucasian swede can't /won't do! What else could be the reason? To reproduce, do menial jobs or work in technical fields. Now classify immigrants/refugees into these sections and you get no remainder. Oops! Then of course we have the wanderers like you who feel white because you are a lighter shade of what you saw your ancestors to be, and think you are considers as an equal because they let you in! Indeed the Chinese, the Israelis, the Libyan and Zimbabweans have done much too, but you still haven't answered my question (THE BASIS OF THIS ARGUMENT): Can you please name the race that maxes it all, and funds it all? There you go, so point of correction: I struggle to focus people like you in here on the truth, because I used to believe there was no distinct race, but Caucasians and wannabes like you prove me wrong. Isn't it more alarming to you when the social democrats are winning more seats?
16:29 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

O really! You can't stand racism?! In your high moral standards, a poster who recently suggested non-whites should not breed with whites couldn't catch your eyes! No dear! You can stand racism and it is clear it makes feel you good when you read @esvahnt and @Baroness.Fredericks talking about avoiding breeding among dark skins and whites! The only claim which is more ridiculous than this is to suggest that Nazis were not racist either. You'd better allow some consistency in your double standards!
16:33 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
@ Iraniboy

I didn't read all the comments on this page. I only scrolled through and Lunneia's comments caught my eye, so I read them. What more do you want me to say?

I'm sorry if I missed reading the comments you mention. I'm just being honest here.
16:38 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Lunneia

What's with all the ad hominems? I don't understand why I would be a "wannabe white" if everybody I've met has always assumed I'm 100% "white." Personally, I couldn't care less what people view me as ethnically or racially. It's not very nice of you to assume such things about me, you don't even know me. Not that it's any of your business but I have blue eyes, brown hair and I'm an engineer who is currently single (I've never been married) and have been living in Sweden because a Swedish employer wanted to utilize my skills. Is that enough for you?
16:38 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

Oh. I'm sorry then. I apologize for the accusation :)
16:51 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Lunneia

Another thing, I only said I'm not "technically white" to expose the hypocrisy of how many people who assume I'm 100% white would automatically retract their assumption had they gotten wind of my Innu and Tatar ancestry.

I have worn contact lenses, but for vision correction, not eye colour change, as my optometrist can attest.. ;)
16:53 June 23, 2012 by mcjensen

"As a matter of fact I can vote in all Swedish elections except parliament! Besides I also want my tax money spent on you back :D"

Did someone just accidentally tell everybody for how long he's been a fat parasite?

I was responding to your thick baloney only because i found your idiocy amusing. now it's gotten more pathetic than funny. so sh*t all over this place whichever way that pleases you. won't give a rat's a**.

btw, i pay more tax than you could possibly earn. that case you'll get... that's right, you'll get zero back. is that what you always do? daydreaming about money in other folks pockets? frankly, im not surprise, in retrospect.

//monkeys can tell this ain't about race.
16:54 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
@ Iraniboy

No problem. :)
16:54 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia

Hahaha! You amuse me! You don't seem to have a clue what a racist is do you? Please Google it up! I serve to enlighten folks like you! Once again, I am not claiming that "Only Caucasians are capable of atrocities"! Do you understand any English at all>??

I am saying the Caucasians are the race that greatly triggered the racial divide, and shifted global, regional and continental balances and equality! They labeled some countries third world, drew the treaties, formed the IMF, drew geographic boundaries, and introduced eugenics, and separatism and racial superiority! So how do your counter-examples fit in because I am no denying them? I am just saying the Caucasians are the major contributors to the atrocities in the world! I anticipated you would to prove me wrong by putting another race in the high chair! Not share blames!!!! And BTW I keep saying "Caucasians this and Caucasians that" as significant to the subject: immigration! Isn't that what this thread is all about?

The term "Caucasian race" was coined by the German philosopher Christoph Meiners in his "The Outline of History of Mankind" (1785), and I am sure we all know the kind of people he was talking about. Meiners was a polygenist: he believed that each race had a separate origin. He was a very early practitioner of scientific racism and considers Caucasians to be those like him, so spare me the Sami and Berber dimensions. I am sure you know what I am taking about, not the politically corrected definition, people like you have coined to feel blameless; the one that covers the general physical type of some or all of the populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Western Asia (the Middle East), Central Asia and South Asia.

Now you get the break you need. I love all races and enjoy life big time. But with my level of education and experience, I do take some time of the enjoyment to educate your kind about the benefits of acceptance, equality and unprejudiced immigration.
17:05 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

Given that fact that you don't know how much I earn I can conclude that you don't know how much you pay tax and that's not a good thing to be honest! :D

After for years of being in Sweden I still yet to see ONE person like you in my real life! I'm being asked to use all these services I get in Sweden and being asked to work here. I can't recall one single week that I haven't been flattered by nice comments about about my work, my knowledge, my language skills, my humor and other qualifications in Sweden so why should I bother about someone like you?! I really need a motivation to stop shitting all over this place as you say :D
17:13 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia

Sorry for those assumptions but you left me no choice. Good news: you fall into one of the categories I listed, so you know why you got to stay right? Cool, I was a bit harsh on you because I have always felt people like you (who are supposedly educated) are rather the ones who are in constant denial of the problem and need an overhaul!

The problem exists, and we all know the cause, so stop beating about the bush and help me here! Convince your 'adopted 'race that it is ok to love others and perhaps my nancy boy fear-and-guilt tactics-as you see them-- will be a thing of the past. I am a realist and I believe that perhaps the most significant step to the immigration problem is to accept that the problem lies within the genetic make-up and mentality of the Caucasian!
17:14 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
@ Lunneia

Lunneia, I don't need you to sound condescending. A racist/xenophobe/intolerable whatever is someone who assumes certain stereotypes and/or shows prejudice towards individual(s) or a collective group of individuals based on their cultural heritage and/or physical appearance. This is not a perfect definition, but it's a start. Why I accused you of being a racist is because of your constant battering towards Caucasians. Yes, "Caucasians" (as loose of a term as that is) have committed atrocities in the past, but to claim *they* are the ONLY ones who have done so IS a racist assertion! I don't know how else I can explain this to you.

I am "white/Caucasian" I did not choose to be "white/Caucasian" when I was born. I am happy with who I am and I wouldn't change a single thing about me, I am not a racist and I don't like racists. I have never treated anybody unfairly for being what they are and whenever someone brings up the "white guilt" argument it makes my blood boil. Why should I feel guilty for being white? Because some other white people who I have no relation with, nor identify with culturally or linguistically (like say the French or the Spanish) went off and caused hardships for other peoples many centuries ago? Little did I know that when I was born and just a little innocent baby I would be automatically guilty for something beyond my control. See what I'm saying?

Life's too short to worry about who is what race or to try and push your beliefs on other people. Nobody "owes" anybody else anything in general context. Remember what Gandhi himself said: "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Think about it.
17:30 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Lunneia

You had me convinced until your last sentence. Your last sentence stands as a perfect example of why you got me all fired up in the first place!

Since I can't seem to convince you why assuming "Problem lies within the genetic make-up and mentality of the Caucasian" is racist (that is, racist against white people), I'll provide you with two examples:

1. I used to live in the Greater Toronto area when I was a teenager. Needing a summer job as any teen would, I decided to try my luck at a local car dealership. Like I said, I look "Caucasian" and everybody always assumes I'm "Caucasian" until I tell them otherwise (which I almost never do, because like I said before, I frankly don't care what "race/ethnicity" or whatever I belong to. I am who I am). Anyway, the car dealership owner/hirer was a Pakistani fellow (Canada being the multi-"racial" country it is) and my only competition for the job was a Bengali fellow I went to High School with. We had essentially the exact same qualifications, my interview went smoothly, but the Bengali fellow got the job. (I later found out both the Pakistani employer and Bengali teen where members of the same Islamic Centre). Make of it what you will.

2. I know an architect who works at a firm that is operated by a Swede, a stereotypical-looking Swedish man who hires the "best and brightest" regardless of their background. He has a Korean, an African-American and an Indian employed at his firm. He is "Caucasian" and yet he hired three non-Caucasians. The African-American fellow got accepted to work at a firm in Hong Kong prior, but once they (the "Asiatic" Chinese firm) found out he was Black, they quite bluntly refused to hire him.

I hope you understand why your generalization of Caucasians (and only Caucasians) is racist now.
17:47 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia

I realize you didn't read through all the comments before you reacted to mine, so you are pardoned. I appreciate your attempt to enlighten me about what a racist is…Will keep that in mind. Please don't get me wrong, I am not on you case because you are white, I am on your case because you don't seem to accept that the Caucasian 'superiority' trademark continues to be the reason why the world is partial.

Excuse my condescending approach but I don't think admitting the existence of a problem is too much to ask for. And for you to think it's in the past is pretty witty because here we are on an immigration thread; slamming the words racist/xenophobe/intolerable at each other! What does it tell you? That the atrocities are still being committed… and will not stop until something is done! Hey cheer up! Don't be disappointed by the fact that you are "white/Caucasian" and did not choose to be "white/Caucasian". Have you even considered my race yet?

Until the "white guilt" argument, yields something fruitful like the expression of genuine equality in Sweden we can't just snap a finger and hope it all go away! Indeed Life's too short to worry about who is what race or to try and push your beliefs on other people, but the actions of 'our' kind have made people in many parts of the world miserable! Travel and see pal! So somebody does "owe" somebody something. Somebody does owe immigrants less headaches, love, and acceptance. Somebody needs to give overly qualified immigrants jobs; somebody needs to remove all those ridiculous barriers to survival and, that somebody is you! YOU VOTE DON'T YOU? "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind indeed so VOTE WISELY!
17:50 June 23, 2012 by le maestro
You sell them guns and arms, in return for for a refugee camp , what did you expect more?
17:59 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
@ Lunneia

I didn't guess your race because I didn't feel it was relevant but if I HAD to guess I would probably say you are either of Sub-Saharan African ancestry or in other words, Black. OR you are Caucasian and married/in a relationship/had been in a relationship to someone of Sub-Saharan African ancestry. I'm also guessing you are a woman.

You can let me know how far off I was in my guess. :)
18:14 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Iraniboy

I'm actually surprised at the amount of hate against you this site stirs up. You always seem quite knowledgeable and respectful. I think it has something to do with the fact that you prove the "anti-immigration" crowd wrong in that you represent everything they would like to think doesn't exist. A well-adjusted, educated and successful immigrant of Islamic background.

Maybe it's your name that rubs people the wrong way, I wonder what reactions you'd get if you went by the name "Ikea Dude" or something instead of Iraniboy ;)
18:22 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia

I like your analogy and sorry for your experience, but you take us to the point that there shall always be racial differences globally. However, my focus here is on the Swedish equality model. It's been 2012 years since civilization was catalogued on our side of life and we are still having this conversation. What does it tell you?

I for one have been curious about why some policies ever exist, and I must admit that the immigration problem is more profound than you deem it! It lies within genetic material! Slave trade, eugenics, colonization, the IMF, immigration and integration policies, ADOLF HITLER, anti-interracial marriage laws and the AK 47 have something in common! Find the missing link and voila, you have your solution.

Perhaps your answer to this question might give you something to ponder about…

Can you please answer this question sincerely?

- If you had down syndrome, would you accept that it was a genetic disorder, or that you were normal (assuming most other people you knew had it too?

- If so, to what extent could policy help the minority you knew who didn't have the syndrome?

- How would the minority get you get the world to understand that yours was a genetic issues (assuming it hadn't been established yet, but you both felt it)?

….I HOPE YOU NOW have a fair idea about the relationship between racial superiority and immigration policy, as well as the crucial role of genetics.
18:38 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Lunneia

Interesting comments, however I must say one thing. To some Swedes, it doesn't matter whether someone is Ukrainian (even if Ukrainians are Caucasians) or Nigerian. Why? Because in both cases, they are not ethnic Swedes, they do not have Swedish as their mother tongue and they do not come from Swedish culture.

You would think that there is a unity among Caucasians, but it's actually a lot less than other so-called races. For instance, when I went to High School in Canada, my Caucasian friends were friends with just about anybody, whether they were black, Indian, whatever. In contrast, all of the people of Asian-origin in our High School only socialized within their own group. I met a WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, that is of English ancestry) who claimed that Russians were not "Caucasian" because of their heavy intermixing with Mongolic, Turkic and Uralic peoples throughout the centuries. He also claimed that Italians weren't "Caucasian" yet I knew plenty of Italians who looked whiter than him!

As for anti-interracial marriage, well when I attended High School (yes I know, a lot of High School examples, that's what being in High School in Toronto will do to you) I knew a Muslim fellow of Mauritian extraction. Upon visiting his grandparents in Mauritius, his grandmother told him "If you marry a white girl, you will no longer be my grandson." So don't think for a moment that "anti-interracial marriage" is purely a Caucasian phenomenon.

And Hitler? Come on, the guy was a massive hypocrite (amongst many other bad things, obviously). A guy obsessed with the Nordic race being the most pure and yet he didn't even look Nordic. Even with all the propaganda how anyone took him seriously for just that alone is anyone's guess.
18:52 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia
@ Towns

Cool, but i am still waiting for my main answer: the link between the Slave trade, eugenics, colonization, the IMF, immigration and integration policies, ADOLF HITLER, anti-interracial marriage laws and the AK 47?
19:23 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Lunneia

Sorry, but you're not going to get a black or white (no pun intended)/no or yes answer from me, there are always shades of grey :)

Slave trade? Hmm, English, Arabs, Dutch, Mongols, Turks, French all examples of peoples responsible for slavery.

Eugenics? Predominantly initially formulated by early Darwinists.

Colonization? What do you mean by "colonization?" Didn't the ancestors of the Malagasy colonize Madagascar. Didn't the Maoris colonize New Zealand? Human history is a history of migration to different lands.

The IMF? What does that have to do with anything?

Immigration and integration policies? Different depending on each country, just ask Japan versus Canada.

Adolf Hitler? Another maniacal dictator, just like Stalin, Mao Zedong, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, you name it.

Anti-interracial marriage laws? You mean like forbidding marriage to a "shiksa?"

AK-47? A weapon used in war, just like everything from the flaying used by Mongol rebels against Japanese invaders in Manchuria to the crossbow.
20:17 June 23, 2012 by esvahnt
the power of the non white immigrants remains in their ability to reproduce ,to have baby after baby and their never ending bringing of new" relatives "

only by working in that passive way they are smashing us

it would be totally different if our womans would start having babies at 14 and they would accept to have 10 or so sons

but they are infected with the bacteria of feminisme that dont allow such an abuse

thats why we are doomed
20:30 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
In reference to an earlier post:

Don't worry, I feel 100% guilt-free. The way it should be. :)
20:51 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

Thanks! :) I think so too! Just being from Iran can be provocative for some. It is interesting for me to see how people react. Since I'm neither patriotic nor bothered by personal attacks it can be fun unless the logical level of discussion falls extremely low. The only thing that can raise my temper is when an underrepresented group gets the attack in a discussion and of course like any other human being can sometimes do humiliating mistakes like what I wrote to Svealander.


Very true! How does it feel now?(Given that except you and a handful of other rightly-guided guys have understood this plot while billions of people out there cannot understand!)
21:11 June 23, 2012 by Lunneia
@ Iraniboy,

you are a realistic guy! Been tracking your posts on here for a while and indeed you make me proud. Keep the good work up Sir!
21:19 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Iraniboy

No problem! Regarding: "underrepresented group gets the attack in a discussion" that underrepresented group you speak of are very good and resourceful in online discussions but are dramatically less successful in real life situations. At least that's what I noticed. The Local.se for example is a website where they seem to have gained the upper hand. Although I'll admit many of the commentators on here might actually be the same person using different usernames. Who knows?


Honestly, if you look at statistics the high birthrate almost always occurs in the first or sometimes even second generation. After that, the birthrate falls dramatically to or near to the level of the local population. I honestly don't understand some Swedes complaining about being "invaded by non-whites." The vast majority of invandrare in Sweden actually come from Caucasian-backgrounds (In the US and especially Latin America for example, Arabs, Turks, Armenians, Iranians, etc are considered "whites"). Assyrians, Armenians and many Lebanese are even Christian! In fact, the largest "non-white" group in Sweden are Somalis who number around 30,000-40,000 (0.3% to 0.5% of the total population). This is a stark contrast to a place like London, United Kingdom where over 50% of children under 5 come from African and South Asian backgrounds.
21:33 June 23, 2012 by klubbnika
#28 @iraniboy

That is not true. Here in the UK, the paperwork for me, A Swedish citizen, was next to non-existent. I am ashamed that Sweden doesn't reciprocate that.
21:48 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy
@ Lunneia

Thanks :)


The underrepresented group I'm concerned can vary depending on site or even title of the news I'm commenting on! So I don't know which one you mean. In case I see they are represented good I stop commenting and leave!

There are actually some posters here that have never ever visited Sweden! They are redirected by some websites to just post propaganda.


Different people have different understanding of the paperwork. You as a Swedish citizen hasn't gone through the paperwork like non-Swedes in Sweden. In Sweden there is a difference between someone coming from a Scandinavian country or an EU country or even Switzerland and of course outside Europe. Everything is already mentioned in Migrationsverket.se and skatteverket.se. If they ask for something more then one can complain.
21:51 June 23, 2012 by towns
Another thing I'd like to add: The amount of discussion about race and such on these forums/comment threads on the Local is ridiculous! It makes me convinced more than ever that the overwhelming amount of people commentating here are not from Sweden. Having lived in Sweden for some time now I can honestly say I've NEVER heard a single normal conversation between Swedes about "races" even the Sweden Democrats don't talk about races! They talk about Swedes and Non-Swedes! Seriously, the only race-obsessed people I've encountered in Sweden have been American ex-pats! Most normal and educated people on the other hand don't sincerely care whether someone is Kyrgyz or Frisian, doesn't matter what traditional "race" they are from!
21:58 June 23, 2012 by Svealander
Just finished reading through all the comments (hey, it's been a busy day, that's why it took so long). Phew, quite a few comments on here aren't even directly relevant to the article!
21:58 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

"It makes me convinced more than ever that the overwhelming amount of people commentating here are not from Sweden. Having lived in Sweden for some time now I can honestly say I've NEVER heard a single normal conversation between Swedes about "races" even the Sweden Democrats don't talk about races! "

I've had an identical experience and conclusion!
22:06 June 23, 2012 by towns
@ Iraniboy

Nice to see someone with a similar experience :). The "group" I was referring to earlier (#98) was the usual group who leaves comments on here. I'd call them the anti-immigrant gang/xenophobia gang, but that's not really it since it's a bit too general. Anyway, I'm sure you know who I'm referring to.

And yeah, I've noticed many people who haven't even lived in Sweden (and not shy about saying it either) provide their "insight" on Sweden and Swedes quite often on here. Many of whom probably live in the United States or Canada and have some distant Swedish ancestors. I know the type. A co-worker from Canada I'm acquainted with identifies herself as "Swedish" (she has Swedish grandparents) even though she doesn't speak Swedish, has never been to Sweden and is second generation Canadian.
23:10 June 23, 2012 by Iraniboy

Well then I had misunderstood #98 :P But it's fine :)

Actually I have seen even worse! There are posters here have no relation whatsoever in any form not even any distant Swedish ancestor. They are just commenting here simply because thelocal.se is posting news in English and they happen to understand English :D
04:57 June 24, 2012 by TheWatchman

Actually, there are protests going on in Guangzhou by many black people right now. There many thousands living in China. Foreigners are not subject to the one child policy and have plenty of kids while real Chinese are. It's disgusting. I agree with the rest of what you said. Why can't white countries preserve their own nations? No one cares when Japan wants to preserve their racial purity and limits the number of Koreans coming to Japan (hypothetical example). If Sweden suddenly halted ALL immigration, it's their damn right and I would praise them for it.
05:42 June 24, 2012 by embil
Unfortunately, Iraniboy and towns, it's like that in almost all forums of all different countries that have an English edition and is usually by disgrunted expats, as I have seen. I think, the irony here is that those that claim to speak in the name of Sweden are speaking in English, instead of the Swedish language. Also, it's more accurate to hear on the Swedes that actually are from there on their opinion of this situation. That would be interesting.

WatchMan, Japan has a labor crisis, due to that very same fact, that now, more tax resouces are being spend on health care and on services for care of the elderly. This means, that there is now a lower labor force per capita that pay these resources, and the costs will eventually cause other economic problems that include, debt, etc. Not as simple as one would think.
09:14 June 24, 2012 by Iraniboy

No country is blamed for limiting immigrants alone. The problem is when you start demonizing immigrants to promote your policies. Japan doesn't demonize other races, nationalities etc like what ultra right wing groups do in Europe.

As for Sweden, you should hold your breathe! Because despite all you hear and write here, not only the majority of Swedes do not have any problem with it but also enjoy helping asylums for their self esteem and appreciates highly skilled immigrants for the sake of their country(the latter is less important for them). I wonder if you praise what the majority of Swedes are looking after?
09:29 June 24, 2012 by towns
The strange thing here is that people complain about "immigrants only in European countries" yet there are plenty of countries in Europe that have a very low % of immigrants (There are also countries were the local population is outnumbered by immigrants, take some Gulf States or Singapore). Take Slovakia for example where immigrants are about 1% of the population. Slovakia is a nice country and relatively wealthy (it has about the same GDP Per Capita as Portugal and a lower unemployment figure nowadays). The capital, Bratislava is as nice as any Western European city (actually I'd say nicer since it doesn't have the urban decay present in cities like London or Paris). Trust me I've been there.

So if you don't like being around immigrants, you could always move to Slovakia, of course the irony is that it would mean you yourself would become an immigrant!
10:49 June 24, 2012 by salalah
Poland: No social benefits to unemployed - no immigration
12:12 June 24, 2012 by towns
@ salalah

I've been to Poland, the only immigrants they have there are almost exclusively entrepreneurs or some economic migrants from neighbouring Belarus and Ukraine. There are for example 45,000 Vietnamese who were recruited to come mostly during the communist era, they predominantly own restaurants and work in markets. The Belarusians and Ukrainians blend in quite well with the local population (well the Belarusians and Ukrainians and Poles are all nearly genetically identical) and the Vietnamese there are a hard-working and peaceful people.

Other than that you'll find some university students from varying backgrounds, mostly studying subjects like medicine. Poland is a really nice and peaceful country nowadays, you should visit! Sure, the wages are lower than in say Sweden but everything is a lot less expensive so it's all relative. Lots of construction going on, no economic recession recently and unemployment comparable to France's. Overall a country that is underrated by a lot of people.
12:20 June 24, 2012 by sometimetoquestion
Well what goes around comes around. Swedens weapons exports and thereby contribution to the tax income of the state and us citizens does have a side effect.

All the wars and traumas caused by our high tech products especially in the field of weaponry cause devastation and mayhem not leaving much of a PLACE TO REMAIN. Example Iraq, Afganistan, Libya etc so ofcourse if these citizens of the countries named need to seek refuge some place they come to the source of their woes. Be it that they know it or not so is the case.

Consider some of the biggest sponsers still for all the nobel prizes is weapon production companies. I guess many deal recently gone sour (the saudi connection/business deal)and as such they have had to reduce the prize. monies.

And if sweden really is as empty as it is more people ought to be invited however we must be ready to lower our "comfortability" levels and so called welfare to accord more dignity between one another and "guests"

If loop holes at some point allowed someone to get residence in the country obviously if they have no criminal record or shaddy dealings or just on the social welfare I would suggest the extended family must be allowed to visit and if they want reside.

12:26 June 24, 2012 by Svealander
"And if sweden really is as empty as it is more people ought to be invited"

You like it crowded? I for one hope Sweden never gets as crowded as say, the Netherlands and Belgium!
13:01 June 24, 2012 by sometimetoquestion
the area of sweden is 450 000 sqkm n theres like never more than 10 million people. a dispropotionate amount of "luxury" considering the realities of over 2/3´s if not more of the worlds populations realities. So long as those coming into the country are not conditioned to believe like more and more swedes that city life is life.

Sweden does have some of the best prerequisites for promoting de-urbanization. There is land, technology, infrastructure and the likes. Its needs what I would suggest another livity reality to be propagated and furnished as an option to the more commercialistic mind (ie greed and vanity) set that has got a hold on the society at large.

As for the contribution of foreign passport holders to the economy of sweden cannot be underestimated considering the social welfare state catered for by the labours of the less title seeking immigrants

13:47 June 24, 2012 by Svealander
Fair enough.
16:47 June 24, 2012 by sometimetoquestion
Consider Palestine which for some reason not of its own was emptied due to a re-exodus of the isralites. I mean if that was their God bequeathed place on earth have not the most of them remained there and lived since like 3000yrs ago.

I believe that some of the fears of sensiblizing immigration laws in Sweden is the actual insight into the support Sweden accredited to the re-establishment of Israel to the loss of the mix of people residing living and worshipping their God in that geographical area in millenia. Now that sort of takover by "foreigners" is wrong and could never be right and as such democratic options are currently availed to ensure suitable representation instead of an ugly takeover that currently may not be questioned for reprisals call one anti semetic. isnt the most anti semitisim happening in israel itself?

Well That sums up my insights on the fact of an inbred fear and nonsensically restrictive immigration policies.

Several other angles however these are what I avil at this moment.

02:05 June 25, 2012 by godnatt

Best line of BS from you in a long time and that's saying a lot....

"the cultural difference between Sweden and any other non-Scandinavian European country like France or Italy is far more than between Iran and Italy or France."

The big lie is easier to tell than the small one, as you are so fond of showing... The Islamic hell hole you were so quick to flee from has nothing in common with the lands of Voltaire and Da Vinci other than the fact that all their inhabitants must drink water to survive.
11:09 June 25, 2012 by jesseblu
I have spent years fighting the swedish immigration services trying to get my daughter, who is a South Africa passport holder into Sweden. As she is over 18 they have dissallowed her entry. Does this mean that I can re-submitt my entry? Can she get a refund for her latest visa costs??
11:48 June 25, 2012 by Zombie
@ godnatt

QFT mate.

I was gonna reply something in those lines too, but whatever.

Internet arguing is ridiculous anyway.

But comparing Sweden to France and saying it´s more different in Culture than Iran comparing to Europe is Priceless indeed.

LULZ to iraniboy.
12:35 June 25, 2012 by sometimetoquestion
Interesting exchanges. Well I guess voltaire and da vinci would have a hard time being as blessed as they were to have the comfortability availed to them considering if their ancestors were not persians.

First written language and philosophical thoughts expression in a "modern" sense was extrapolated from Persia. While at about the same time in europe folks where just coming out of their caves and burrows.

As or the blatant lies and kosher knowledge and tech-no-logic advances they will come to light. Greece and its fall is the lie that it invented democracy as well as the discourse of philosophy.

No arguing just stating some part of the story we "choose" not to learn.

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