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Eating Animals- Book by Jonathan Foer

Good Book

kindhearted
post 15.Nov.2009, 10:46 PM
Post #16
Joined: 27.Jun.2009

smokin joe: "i'm a stones throw from being vegan"

futureishere: "Me too." "I do eat meat here in Sweden more frequently (mostly fish...once in a week or two)"

futureishere, do you know the meaning of 'Vegan' or even 'Vegetarian'?

jack sprat, so you have back tracked on your claims that one can't survive on a vegetarian diet and that a vegetarian diet lacks the right amino acids? Did any farm animal on its way to the slaughterhose tell you that it had left an idyllic stress free life and was happy to be killed? So a few days old suckling calf and his mother don't feel any stress or pain when he is forcibly removed to be eaten by you while you happily drink the mother's milk?

craicen: "Save the planet: Kill yourself" What logical thinking! Perfect evolution from ape to human! How many kilos of grain, how many litres of water, how many kilos of excreta and gases by a cow in Eire to produce one kilo of meat?

mazz, check your left side - your heart might be missing.
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craicen
post 15.Nov.2009, 11:04 PM
Post #17
Joined: 2.Oct.2009

Live on grains and you will be weak and die like those folks in Africa. Most of Ireland is not suitable for crops but is ideal grazing land. And it has been so for at least 6000 years! I dont feel one once of guilt for living.
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craicen
post 15.Nov.2009, 11:07 PM
Post #18
Joined: 2.Oct.2009

Sweden could easily be self sufficient in food and not import anything if the political will was there. Then they wouldn't have to feel so guilty.

Besides all your vegan food uses animal fertiler or fossil fueled based fertilizer. Is that counted in your logic. Any functioning traditional farm has animals and they are part of the whole.
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Princess P
post 15.Nov.2009, 11:08 PM
Post #19
Location: Not in Sweden
Joined: 19.Dec.2006

QUOTE (kindhearted @ 15.Nov.2009, 09:41 PM) *
...It is becoming increasingly clear that hunger, poverty, de-forestation and the consequent droughts, not to mention many medical problems are all directly related to meat pr ... (show full quote)


Or not. The biggest cause of deforestation in Brazil is soya production and in South East Asia it's palm oil.

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/forests/agriculture

Save the rainforests: become a meat eater.
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craicen
post 15.Nov.2009, 11:12 PM
Post #20
Joined: 2.Oct.2009

Me thinks yous a city boy!
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jack sprat
post 15.Nov.2009, 11:52 PM
Post #21
Joined: 15.Sep.2006

Sorry kindhearted,but you do not seem to have a clue.
As someone who has been involved in the raising and caring of many thousands of animals over the years, hopefully I should know just a little about it by now.
Your knowledge kindhearted, appears to come from books written by those with an obsession against meat production and consumption.?
I can assure you that myself and the vast majority of livestock men I know are sometimes even more conscientious about the well-being and welfare of their animals than that of ourselves and families.
Many farming families lives totally revolve around their livestock,day,night,worktime and social time also,.(no snide remarks please).
Not all animals are factory farmed and many live a more stress free life than most people.
"What is this life if full of care,we have no time to stand and stare,no time to stand beneath the boughs and stare as long as sheep or cows",...
.One of the first poems I read, and often thought about since, whilst I was running about like a blue-assed fly keeping the buggers in luxury.
You never watched contented animals lying in the field chewing their cud?
However I do admit there are certain aspects with regard to factory type farming which I do not like or agree with, and still need to be improved quite a lot.
Quite often those involved in this sort of thing are those looking for a quick buck, rather than true farming families of many past generations.
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craicen
post 15.Nov.2009, 11:56 PM
Post #22
Joined: 2.Oct.2009

QUOTE (jack sprat @ 15.Nov.2009, 11:52 PM) *
Sorry kindhearted,but you do not seem to have a clue.As someone who has been involved in the raising and caring of many thousands of animals over the years, hopefully I should ... (show full quote)

Concur
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kindhearted
post 16.Nov.2009, 03:07 AM
Post #23
Joined: 27.Jun.2009

craicen, people in Africa are neither Vegetarian nor weak and those who are dying are dying because of droughts, famine and exploitation, not because they are Vegetarian. So where were all the cattle during the potato famine when millions of Irish died? Farmers are those who grow crops. People who raise animals for slaughter are butchers. Sort out your logic before quering mine: How many kilos / litres of food, water, gases are involved to produce one kilo of meat?
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kindhearted
post 16.Nov.2009, 03:08 AM
Post #24
Joined: 27.Jun.2009

Princess P: "The biggest cause of deforestation in Brazil is soya production"

Take the trouble to read further the report you quote:

"New Greenpeace research shows how this soya is being fed to the chickens that you eat at places like McDonald's. We have documented thousands of tonnes of soya is being exported from the heart of the Amazon into the UK. The soya is then fed to millions of chickens in the farms that supply McDonald's. This means that every time you buy a Chicken McNugget you're taking a bite out of the Amazon."
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kindhearted
post 16.Nov.2009, 03:10 AM
Post #25
Joined: 27.Jun.2009

jack sprat, you have evaded answering my points directly, but regarding your points:

a. There isn't one thing more hypocritical in this world than the claim of happily grazing cows. Cows are kept permanently pregnant by artificial means. A male suckling calf is removed from his mother when he is only a few days old and is slaughtered. A female calf soon becomes a milking machine like her mother. As soon as a cow can no longer produce milk it is sent to the slaughterhouse. These creatures are highly developed and have a mind as well. But they do not have a voice and are helpless. And they do not have the cunning of humans so when they are being fattened up for slaughter they think that their owner is being nice to them.

Tell me, as a 'true farmer', at the very least shouldn't a cow who stops producing milk be allowed to spend her remaining life happily chewing the cud?

b. Factory farming is the rule rather than the exception. The Irish might be attached to their cattle (although they do not hesitate to kill them), but in most of the rest of the world animals are treated and killed very cruelly. And don't forget how Jews and Muslims kill animals.

c. The main point is about eating meat. Meat doesn't grow on a tree - you have to kill an animal to eat it. However well you have cared for your animal or however you kill it, you are taking a life against its will. Every living thing desires to live. The most wretched people in Africa desire to live - they do not wish to die, otherwise it is not very difficult to commit suicide. Even the smallest insect will start to run away the moment it senses danger - it doesn't want to die. And don't start the nonsense about animals killing other animals in nature - you are not an animal, you are an intelligent human being. And you have an alternative, wild animals don't. And don't tell me that a plant feels the same pain as a cow.

d. The cleverest, the richest, the fittest, or the best are always in a very small minority. How many jewellers are there on the high street and how many grocers? Whose wares have the higher value? The same applies to thought regarding the value of life. There is only a very small minority that has extended true kindness and respect for lower and weaker forms of life than his own. It takes the bravest of the brave and the strongest of the strong to control their taste buds and to be content with eating fruits and vegetables, grains and nuts. Its only those without a herd mentality who can achieve this.

So whatever clues you have, do examine them again very carefully.
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Princess P
post 16.Nov.2009, 08:19 AM
Post #26
Location: Not in Sweden
Joined: 19.Dec.2006

QUOTE (kindhearted @ 16.Nov.2009, 03:08 AM) *
Princess P: "The biggest cause of deforestation in Brazil is soya production"Take the trouble to read further the report you quote:"New Greenpeace research show ... (show full quote)

It is also fed to millions of vegetarians as a substitute for meat.

Anyway, the crux of your argument is that farming and killing other creatures is wrong. So let me ask you, do you own a car? Have you ever ridden in one? How about a bicycle? Flown on an aeroplane? Do you have any photographs? Ever taken any medicine? Eaten cereal fortified with vitamin D or A? Soya cheese? Got any old records? Anything plastic? Have anything that's been painted? Use a dishwasher? Use toothpaste? Ever buy organic food? Ever used soap? Or do you have any elastic holding up your underwear? The swine flu vaccine, getting that done?

If the answer to any of these is yes then you are in no position to lecture others.
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entry
post 16.Nov.2009, 08:44 AM
Post #27
Location: Västra Götaland
Joined: 1.Jul.2007

The dignity of living beings with regard to plants - Moral consideration of plants for their own sake - ECNH-Report published in April 2008. The Federal Constitution demands to take the dignity of living beings into consideration. The term "living beings" encompasses animals, plants and other organisms. At legislative level, the Gene Technology Act limits the scope of the term to animals and plants. The ECNH was asked by the Federal Office for the Environment to make suggestions as to how this notion of dignity of living beings can be fleshed out from an ethical perspective in relation to plants.

It has been more than a year now. Who is going to do something?
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jack sprat
post 16.Nov.2009, 11:56 AM
Post #28
Joined: 15.Sep.2006

QUOTE (kindhearted @ 16.Nov.2009, 03:10 AM) *
Cows are kept permanently pregnant by artificial means. A male suckling calf is removed from his mother when he is only a few days old and is slaughtered. .

Must admit kindhearted that I am truly amazed by your naivety.
To deal with your first two statements.
If you ever took the trouble to get out and about, you would see large numbers of herds of cows accompanied and well serviced by bulls in the field.
Regarding the suckler calves for beef,most are left with their Mothers until mature and have a very natural lifestyle.,..once again get out and see for yourself.
In the case of dairy herds, of those that are taken from their Mothers early, many are bucket fed for a while then turned out to grass, until mature,...often for beef in the case of males, and to eventually join the herd in the case of females.
It is only in a small minority of cases where the calf is not suitable for either purpose that it may be slaughtered early.
I have mentioned factory farming methods which are in need of, and are being improved in many, but unfortunately not yet all cases.
I have neither time nor patience to deal with the rest of your ill-informed nonesense.
I can only recommend that you throw your books in the bin and get out on a farm and see the true picture yourself before posting any more nonesense.
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craicen
post 16.Nov.2009, 12:05 PM
Post #29
Joined: 2.Oct.2009

QUOTE (kindhearted @ 16.Nov.2009, 03:07 AM) *
craicen, people in Africa are neither Vegetarian nor weak and those who are dying are dying because of droughts, famine and exploitation, not because they are Vegetarian. So w ... (show full quote)

Loads of people have supressed immune systems from the diet of corn meal they eat which are hand outs from Western charities or the UN. THis makes them suceptable to numorours fatal diseases that would hardly phase a well fed Westerner.

You just insulted all the herding cultures on this earth, from the Arabs, to the Mongolians to the Scots and Irish. We are herders! And have been for thousands of years. Get over it. We like it. It is who we are. We eat animals and we like it, no we love it! Meat is murder, but yummy murder and it makes us strong and vital! Ha!
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Princess P
post 16.Nov.2009, 12:39 PM
Post #30
Location: Not in Sweden
Joined: 19.Dec.2006

And while we're at it, I suggest you take a look at the Proceedings of the Third Congress of the European Society for Agricultural and Food Ethics. Specifically the Least Harm Principle.

Their research shows that traditional arable farming kills, on average, 10 field animals per hectare. Whereas traditional beef farming kills, on average, 3 animals per hectare.

Save the animals: become a meat eater.
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