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The Local _ International affairs _ For FR: What can a pacifists do?

Posted by: Torontonian 4.Mar.2007, 02:43 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Iraq's Mandaeans 'face extinction'
By Angus Crawford
BBC News, Damascus

Islamic militants forced Selwan to jump into a bonfire
The Sabian Mandaeans - one of the oldest religious groups in the world - are facing extinction, according to its leaders.
They claim that Islamic extremists in Iraq are trying to wipe them out through forced conversions, rape and murder.

The Mandaeans are pacifists, followers of Adam, Noah and John the Baptist.

They have lived in what is now Iraq since before Islam and Christianity.

More than 80% have been forced to flee the country and now live as refugees in Syria and Jordan.

Even there they do not feel safe - but they say western governments are unwilling to take them in.

Victim voices

There are thought to be fewer than 70,000 of the Sabian Mandaeans spread across the world - only 5,000 are left in Iraq.


Mazen's legs are peppered with machine gun wounds

Nine-year-old Selwan likes watching cartoons and playing football.

But he is too scared to leave his flat. The other children tease him.

He has burns all down the side of his face and on 20% of his body.

He was kidnapped by Islamic militants who forced him to jump into a bonfire - because he is Mandaean.

Now his family lives in a tiny flat in a slum in Damascus.

I meet Luay. He is too scared to be identified and does not want to use his full name.

He was dragged off the street by armed men and forcibly circumcised - a practice not allowed in the Mandaean religion.

He is 19 and is now unlikely ever to find a bride from his own faith.

Worse, he was forcibly converted. That means in the eyes of those same extremists if he now declares himself Mandaean he is apostate.

That makes him a traitor to Islam, who may be murdered. He says he will not be safe in any Muslim country.

'Convert or die'

Then there is Enhar, raped by a gang of masked men in front of her husband - because she would not wear a veil.

Our ethnic minority and out ancient religion will die off

Kanzfra Sattar, Mandaean bishop

Mazen used to be a prosperous jeweller. Now he lives in a cramped flat, with his wife and children. Water drips through the ceiling.

His legs are peppered with machine-gun wounds, he can barely walk.

Shoaki wears a Manchester United hat and shows me the scars where a gang beat and cut him with a knife - he watched his brother murdered in front of him.

Mandaean elders use words like annihilation and genocide - they believe Islamic militants, both Sunni and Shia, offer them two choices - convert or die.

"Some will not consider us people of the book... they see us as unbelievers, as a result our killing is allowed," says Kanzfra Sattar, one of only five Mandaean bishops left worldwide.

'Wait in line'

He believes they are a litmus test for modern Iraq - in a secular state these doctors, engineers and jewellers would thrive.


Kanzfra Sattar is one of only five Mandaean bishops left

In the country as it is without law and in the grip of religious extremism, he fears they will be destroyed.

"We are small in numbers, we ask all the governments of the world to extend a hand of help," Kanzfra Sattar says.

He says he wants the West to accept his people as refugees.

I ask him what will happen if they do not - he replies simply: "Our ethnic minority and our ancient religion will die off."

The UN's refugee agency, the UNHCR, says there may be as many as a million Iraqis who have fled to Syria.

"The numbers that will be resettled are tiny compared to the very large numbers that are here," says Laurens Jolles, the head of a UNHCR team.

He acknowledges that the Mandaeans will just have to "wait in line", with other vulnerable groups.

Roughly two million Iraqis have fled to Syria, Jordan and Turkey. But there are no plans to welcome large numbers to the West.

The US has offered places to 7,000, while Britain says it will consider every case "on its merits".

So the Mandaeans wait in line.

Shoaki puts it more simply: "Here, we live in despair."

Posted by: Ellie 6.Mar.2007, 12:06 AM

Torontonian, this is a shocking story, and I am not easily shocked anymore. I've never heard of this group. Too bad they are not even offered the dhimmi option, instead it's only convert or die.

Perhpaps FR will weigh in on this later.

Posted by: Torontonian 6.Mar.2007, 03:31 AM

Hi Ellie:

This is shocking - they are doomed. My interest in putting it to FR is her pacifist ideology...not always working...

As for "dhimmi option"...FR should be familiar with this term...in every nation on earth it would be call Apartheid...but not in the Arab world. It would not be politically correct. I always find it amazing that the "left" never talks about that.

The picture below will demonstrate to anyone whoe does not understand what Arab Aprtheid is...

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/images/saudidisc.jpg

Posted by: Torontonian 6.Mar.2007, 03:24 PM

FR?

Posted by: Ellie 6.Mar.2007, 04:17 PM

[img]http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/images/saudidisc.jpg[/img]

Dang, now I'll never get to see that ol' meterorite!

Posted by: Ellie 6.Mar.2007, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (Torontonian)
FR?


Must have flown the coop. Along with everyone else.

Posted by: Word Up 6.Mar.2007, 07:12 PM

How interesting that they were relatively safe and enjoyed a good like under the leadership of Saddam Hussein. But then came the United States to save them from Saddam and give them freedom and democracy.

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 6.Mar.2007, 07:16 PM

I knew sooner or later this would become the fault of the Americans. It's great that nobody has to be accountable for anything anymore.

Nothing I do is my fault anymore, because of the impact of American cultural imperialism upon my native Jamtland. I can't help myself, because I am a poor and ignorant Jamt farmer, and George Bush runs the world.

Posted by: FR 7.Mar.2007, 01:11 PM

I'm still around. Been travelling.

A pacifist should leave a country at war. Remember that I also advocate free movement of labor. A pacifist can take his productivity to a better place.

Posted by: Mike 7.Mar.2007, 01:28 PM

QUOTE (Word Up)
How interesting that they were relatively safe and enjoyed a good like under the leadership of Saddam Hussein. But then came the United States to save them from Saddam and give them freedom and democracy.


How do you know? Do you think Saddam would publicize this info if it happened under his rule?

Posted by: Mike 7.Mar.2007, 01:29 PM

QUOTE (Ellie)
[img]http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/images/saudidisc.jpg[/img]

Dang, now I'll never get to see that ol' meterorite!


Holy crap, is that real?

Posted by: Mzungu In Za. 7.Mar.2007, 01:42 PM

Is this real?

Tip of an Iceberg!

http://www.now.org/nnt/summer-2002/gender.html

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 7.Mar.2007, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (FR)
A pacifist should leave a country at war. Remember that I also advocate free movement of labor. A pacifist can take his productivity to a better place.


Except as I understand it, it's very hard to leave Iraq. Turkey has closed its borders and the route to Iran is littered with bandits who'll shoot everyone in the car and steal their stuff. (According to an Iraqi bloke my Swede was talking to.)

As for the picture - is it really news to you guys that Mecca is for Muslims only?

Posted by: Mike 7.Mar.2007, 02:02 PM

QUOTE (Mzungu)
Is this real?

Tip of an Iceberg!

http://www.now.org/nnt/summer-2002/gender.html


What's your point?

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 7.Mar.2007, 02:22 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
Except as I understand it, it's very hard to leave Iraq. Turkey has closed its borders and the route to Iran is littered with bandits who'll shoot everyone in the car and steal their stuff. (According to an Iraqi bloke my Swede was talking to.)

As for the picture - is it really news to you guys that Mecca is for Muslims only?


The old section of Uppsala is the holiest spot in the Nordic world.

From now on, people who are not members of the Folk need to keep away from it. Espen and I will be posting signs to direct non-Folkish traffic towards other parts of town.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 7.Mar.2007, 02:24 PM

I'm not saying it's right, or that I agree with it. I'm just amazed people were not previously aware that Mecca is closed to non-Muslims. (Though quite why a non-Muslim would have any interest in going there is a mystery to me.)

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 7.Mar.2007, 02:47 PM

I just want to reserve the right to invoke the same level of priviledge.

I could care less either way about Mecca being closed to non-Muslims. There are probably valid arguments for and against that policy.

Posted by: Torontonian 7.Mar.2007, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
I'm not saying it's right, or that I agree with it. I'm just amazed people were not previously aware that Mecca is closed to non-Muslims. (Though quite why a non-Muslim would have any interest in going there is a mystery to me.)


So you would agree there is apartheid in Saudi Arabia?

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 7.Mar.2007, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (Gus)
I just want to reserve the right to invoke the same level of priviledge.


I don't. Just because other people discriminate doesn't mean I need to stoop to that level. Although, I do support women-only toilets and changing rooms, so perhaps really I'm no better.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 7.Mar.2007, 02:50 PM

QUOTE (Torontonian)
So you would agree there is apartheid in Saudi Arabia?


Absolutely, Jews are not even allowed to enter the country let alone access any rights. Women are second class citizens. It is appalling, even more so when you think how the West cosies up to this brutal dictatorship.

Posted by: Torontonian 7.Mar.2007, 02:54 PM

QUOTE (FR)
I'm still around. Been travelling.

A pacifist should leave a country at war. Remember that I also advocate free movement of labor. A pacifist can take his productivity to a better place.



This is the point you and I diverge: You speak on imagin world - leave? buy tickets and board a Swiss Air flight and spend some time in a senatorium in the Alps? People murdered, raped and robbed and all you can say is "leave"?

Where is your morality now? You are so quick to attack a "Western" country for anything ever happened but never ever never ever the rapists ot murderers themsleves. By that you tolerate the intolerant

- like the old saying say:

“He Who is Compassionate to the Cruel Will Ultimately Become Cruel to the Compassionate”

Posted by: Torontonian 7.Mar.2007, 02:59 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
Absolutely, Jews are not even allowed to enter the country let alone access any rights. Women are second class citizens. It is appalling, even more so when you think how the West cosies up to this brutal dictatorship.


Darn, I will cancel my travel plans. I wonder why there was a UN boycot on South Africa and there no such thing there. Oh, yes...oil. (BTW, not only the U.S. is guilty but also Russia, Chiana, Japan, and any other coutry favouring that regime. Collective hypocracy indeed. However, a special place should be reserved to "European Left" for not talking about it at all.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 7.Mar.2007, 03:02 PM

QUOTE (Torontonian)
Darn, I will cancel my travel plans. I wonder why there was a UN boycot on South Africa and there no such thing there. Oh, yes...oil. (BTW, not only the U.S. is guilty but also Russia, Chiana, Japan, and any other coutry favouring that regime. Collective hypocracy indeed. However, a special place should be reserved to "European Left" for not talking about it at all.


I don't recall blaming the US alone. Also I am part of the "European Left" and I bang on about it all the time. I think you need to be dealing with reality rather than stereotypes otherwise this discussion will get very lightweight very quickly.

Posted by: Torontonian 7.Mar.2007, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
I don't recall blaming the US alone. Also I am part of the "European Left" and I bang on about it all the time. I think you need to be dealing with reality rather than stereotypes otherwise this discussion will get very lightweight very quickly.


I accept you comment. However, my point is that this is NOT at the top of the agenda of the INSTITUTIONALIZED European Left (not you in particular). I am advocating free speach and human rights (and btw, just to make things crystal clear - end of Israeli occupation in the west bank). I do not see this issue mentioned and raised though in any visible capacity.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 7.Mar.2007, 03:07 PM

No, the issue is very low priority. I can't imagine why this could be...

Posted by: Torontonian 7.Mar.2007, 03:10 PM

Inconvinient truth.

Posted by: FR 8.Mar.2007, 01:38 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
Except as I understand it, it's very hard to leave Iraq.


That's why I also advocate free movement of labor. It should not be hard for anyone to leave anywhere and it should not be hard for anyone to arrive anywhere. Free market and all that.

Posted by: 7 8.Mar.2007, 02:01 PM

QUOTE (FR)
That's why I also advocate free movement of labor. It should not be hard for anyone to leave anywhere and it should not be hard for anyone to arrive anywhere. Free market and all that.


except in this case i think they'd consider it deserting.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 8.Mar.2007, 02:22 PM

eh? It has nothing to do with freedom of labour, it has to do with criminals killing people who are trying to escape.

Posted by: Torontonian 8.Mar.2007, 04:02 PM

VikingHumpingWitch:

Please stop being rational and logical and try to pepper you argument with a bit more lofty ideas and unrealistic dogmas.

If you will not do so you arguments will not fit into the "Luft geschaft" gategory.

achhh... as the old Greek saying goes "only people with full stomachs can talk philosophy".

Posted by: FR 8.Mar.2007, 04:12 PM

QUOTE (007)
except in this case i think they'd consider it deserting.


I've heard that one before. Not a particularly good reason to stay in a horrid situation, however. Is one "deserting" an abusive husband if she divorces him?

Posted by: 7 8.Mar.2007, 04:15 PM

QUOTE (FR)
I've heard that one before. Not a particularly good reason to stay in a horrid situation, however. Is one "deserting" an abusive husband if she divorces him?


sorry, humor intended.

leaving iraq for those stationed as part of coalition military=deserting.

Posted by: Ellie 8.Mar.2007, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (Mike)
Holy crap, is that real?


Torontonian posted the link, I just posted the image. I hope no one thinks we are such ignoramuses that we didn't know we couldn't get into Mecca. I was just surprised at the superhighway leading there and the special exit for the infidels. Wonder where it goes?

I also would like to see the special Black Stone that is worshipped in the Ka'ba in Mecca, but that will never happen since I am an infidel woman. I collect tektites and interesting rocks, minerals, fossils, and I've heard the Black Stone is actually a large meterorite. Oh, well.

Posted by: FR 9.Mar.2007, 07:03 AM

Who gets to go to the Wailing Wall?

Posted by: Torontonian 9.Mar.2007, 12:48 PM

Muslims, Christians, Jews, Infidels - anyone who wishes to. Free for all.

Some non Jews at the wailing wall:

Sharon Stone celebrated her 48th birthday in Israel at the weekend (10-12MAR06) and finished her trip to the Holy Land with a visit to the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem (13MAR06).

August 3, 2003 . Christopher Reeve, praying at Jerusalem's Wailing
Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi
[img]http://www.mutantfrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/Koizumi%20Yarmulke.jpg[/img]



And if those folks are a bit "Jewish" for your taste, here is the Pope himself praying there:

[img]http://www.colombialink.com/01_INDEX/index_biographies/fotos/11_100px-Jp_ii_wailing_wall.jpg[/img]

In Mecca, non-Muslims found in the city or around the mosque face the risk of death penalty.

Now let's get back to topic: what can a pacifist do in a real world (the example above). You did not offer a practical solution.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 9.Mar.2007, 01:03 PM

I also thought the wailing wall was for Jews only (and sections for men only) until about 3 days ago when I found out it wasn't. Has it recently changed or something?

I know it has nothing to do with the thread, I'm just interested.

Posted by: Torontonian 9.Mar.2007, 02:42 PM

1. The wailing wall is designated as a synagogue. ANYONE is can enter a leave a synagoge no matter who they are or what they are.
2. It was always like (never changed) As for woman / man - the wall is devided into 2 sections - one for woman and one for man. - this is the wall your see on the surface. The wall continues actually into the ground (more than 2/3rds). That section is not designated a synagogue and both man and woman are allowed.
3. Keep in mind that Judaism is one of the only Maternal religions (it goes by the mother not the father). It will be imposible to remove women. BTW - the Rabbi in my synagoge is a woman.
4. According to Judaism - your salvation is not by your religion. It is by what you do - and you do not need to be a a Jew. Therefore, it is not a missionairy religion. To "join in" you need to prove you really want to. The only difference B/W Jews and non Jews (in a theogologcal sense) is that Jews were "chosen" to bring salvation to everyone.

In short, forbidding non-Jews to see and touch the wall has no point.

Posted by: 7 9.Mar.2007, 02:46 PM

torontonian,

can you tell me about the armenian quarter of jerusalem? is it true it's not open to everyone? (heard that, not sure)

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 9.Mar.2007, 02:49 PM

'hmm. Judaism does seem to be among the least offensive of all religions, I really cannot understand why so many people over so long a time have had so much against it.

Posted by: Torontonian 9.Mar.2007, 02:50 PM

QUOTE (007)
torontonian,

can you tell me about the armenian quarter of jerusalem? is it true it's not open to everyone? (heard that, not sure)


Open to all. the Armenians (about 15,000 of them - all christians) live there allow all to walk the streets. The only site that has restrictios in Jerusalem is the Temple Mount - where you have the "golden dome" you see in pictures. At various times it is open only to Muslims.

Posted by: Torontonian 9.Mar.2007, 02:51 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
'hmm. Judaism does seem to be among the least offensive of all religions, I really cannot understand why so many people over so long a time have had so much against it.


Because it is a Threat.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 9.Mar.2007, 02:52 PM

QUOTE (Torontonian)
Because it is a Threat.


Who to?

Posted by: Torontonian 9.Mar.2007, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
Who to?


various institutions at various times:

Romans - contrairy to believing in Idols.
Christianity - contrairy to believing in the Trinitt and that Jesus (who btw was born, lived, died and buried as a Jew) is not God.
Islam - most of the stories in the Quran are biblical but with a twist: Abraham is tha Patriach but his son Ishmael is the important one and not Izaac. HOw d you explain that 1,200 years ago te story changed suddenly.

Also God "promised" the land to the Jews -"The promised Land" that is an issue.

Also, how do you explain that the only people who did not accept Jesus are jews !? this is a huge issue.

Finally, during the ages all kind of stereotyes came by - money, race, nose, wickedness...and you have yourself a threat.

Posted by: David Soori 9.Mar.2007, 10:27 PM

''So you would agree there is apartheid in Saudi Arabia?

Absolutely, Jews are not even allowed to enter the country let alone access any rights. Women are second class citizens. It is appalling, even more so when you think how the West cosies up to this brutal dictatorship.''
There is discrimination of all sorts in all societies.From America to Zambia.Only difference is the degree of brutality.
Sweden used to carry out eugenics until 1976.Among the Africans there is tribal discrimination.Among the Muslims there is discrimination's between various sects, so too with Christians, Hindus.If you are a black Jew, the Askance will discriminate against you. Christ was a black Jew not a blue eyed blond Scandinavian
Until we rise above such petty minded ness, and think of us as, First and foremost citizens of the world, and members of the human race. and every thing else is accidental.As Gandhi said we are all brothers and sisters.
All this boils down to economics. As long as we remain enslaved by money created out of NOTHING as an interest bearing DEBT, we can be divided and ruled for maximising profits. We must realise that interest is NOT necessary or inevitable and should be abolised hence forth. All religions, Jewish, Christians, Muslims , Hindus etc condem interest out right, so abolishing it should be easy.
moneylender

Posted by: FR 11.Mar.2007, 12:05 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
I also thought the wailing wall was for Jews only (and sections for men only) until about 3 days ago when I found out it wasn't. Has it recently changed or something?

I know it has nothing to do with the thread, I'm just interested.


I believe you are right, VHW, and so do the Israelis I spoke to last night. One even has to be Orthodox to visit certain sections.

PS I was invited to tour the local mosque with no problem when services were not running. A the Wailing Wall, "services" never technically stop.

Would the Devil be welcome in a church? Just making the point that there are a lot of exclusive places in the world. Doesn't make it right, but nobody can point a finger at another... throwing the first stone and all that.

Posted by: Torontonian 11.Mar.2007, 02:28 PM

QUOTE (FR)
I believe you are right, VHW, and so do the Israelis I spoke to last night. One even has to be Orthodox to visit certain sections.

PS I was invited to tour the local mosque with no problem when services were not running. A the Wailing Wall, "services" never technically stop.

Would the Devil be welcome in a church? Just making the point that there are a lot of exclusive places in the world. Doesn't make it right, but nobody can point a finger at another... throwing the first stone and all that.


FR, please spread no lies just to win the argument. Look above at my answer that is not based on believe" but on living there for many years. The place is open to all religions - I provided photos of gentiles.

And you example of the "devil in the church" is exactly the problem. For Islam an aunbeliever is the "devil in the chruch" for a Christian a muslim a a fellow human being.

Posted by: Mahmood 11.Mar.2007, 03:30 PM

QUOTE (Ellie)
Torontonian posted the link, I just posted the image. I hope no one thinks we are such ignoramuses that we didn't know we couldn't get into Mecca. I was just surprised at the superhighway leading there and the special exit for the infidels. Wonder where it goes?

I also would like to see the special Black Stone that is worshipped in the Ka'ba in Mecca, but that will never happen since I am an infidel woman. I collect tektites and interesting rocks, minerals, fossils, and I've heard the Black Stone is actually a large meterorite. Oh, well.


Correct me if I am wrong, Stockholm has an age restriction of 25 years in night clubs. I was denied entarance in a military base in Sweden. I cannot enter a conference because I did not have a pass. Why non-muslims make such a big issue if they are not allowed in Mecca. Why do you want to go there? Thousands of places in this world are off-limits for most of the people.

The black stone, you are not getting any piece of that because its embedded in kabba. Its a black smoooth ignious piece of rock BTW. Google hajr-e-aswad if you want to see it.


Also, the kind of language Muslims hear in western media and boards like TL for Islam, they are not getting entry soon.

Posted by: Ellie 9.Apr.2007, 09:48 PM

QUOTE (Torontonian)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Iraq's Mandaeans 'face extinction'
By Angus Crawford
BBC News, Damascus

Islamic militants forced Selwan to jump into a bonfire
The Sabian Mandaeans - one of the oldest religious groups in the world - are facing extinction, according to its leaders.


Torontonian, I had never heard of this group until you posted the BBC link, but I ran across another article on the Mandaeans in today's Int'l Herald Tribune. Small world. If this group can get enough international attention focused on their plight, they might actually stand a chance. Here's hoping.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/09/asia/mandeans.php
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/09/asia/mandeans.php

[img]http://img.iht.com/images/2007/04/09/web0409-mandaeans550.jpg[/img]

Posted by: Torontonian 10.Apr.2007, 03:32 AM

QUOTE (Ellie)
Torontonian, I had never heard of this group until you posted the BBC link, but I ran across another article on the Mandaeans in today's Int'l Herald Tribune. Small world. If this group can get enough international attention focused on their plight, they might actually stand a chance. Here's hoping.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/09/asia/mandeans.php
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/09/asia/mandeans.php

[img]http://img.iht.com/images/2007/04/09/web0409-mandaeans550.jpg[/img]


You would really hope so...but I cannot see this happening. Those nut cases in Iraq will kill anyone that is not one of their own.

Posted by: Ellie 12.Apr.2007, 02:39 AM

QUOTE (Torontonian)
You would really hope so...but I cannot see this happening. Those nut cases in Iraq will kill anyone that is not one of their own.


The ones who make it to Sweden will have a hard time maintaining their culture and traditions, but at least they will be alive. I'm optimistic for the ones who are in Sweden now. But as for the rest still in Iraq, not to mention the Assyrians and other kaffir, they don't stand much of a chance against the religion of peace.

Posted by: Abc 12.Apr.2007, 06:10 AM

On The Other Hand... I Have a Thumb
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+racism&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israeli+racism
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+racist

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